Is this the best competative game ever made?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96VuKijVk2E

this is more hype than any broodshit ever

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League of Legends especially is a competative joke. It has the competative depth of a puddle, and yet millions of people watch it because they happen to be invested in the game because they've bought hundreds of skins.

SAD

>>361966630
Sorry I prefer to play games I actually play.

>>361966834
MVP vs Squirtle GSL ending was better.

But no i would say SC2 and Broodwar both have qualities that the other games don't have. I love both games so you should too the post.

>>361966834
Two big balls of armies. Hype?

Video below is the only time I've been impressed by micro in SC2, and sadly Colossus harass isn't even a thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKY5XC1vMMg

And this is literally what Protoss does with reaver every day in BW except harder to control because of AI and more impressive

>>361967032
>Sorry I prefer to play games I actually play.
What does that mean?

You mean you play shitty games?

>>361967071
Wrong video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXyq6E5H_Zg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA&index=13&list=LLCsZXZg3lzh88RPhBtcTK0w

PLAY GOOD

You know that feeling when you force 2 control groups of medic marine to fan out and stim into 3 lurkers while you whip your science vessel back to avoid a pair of scurge? The heat of the blood pumping through your arms?

The people that made SC2 have no idea what that is like.

>>361966882
The worst part is that Riot completely squanders any chance for the meta to change or for teams to develop more unique styles.

>>361967032
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q

You are just shit and can't play either mentally or physically tasking Video Games.

>>361966630
SC2 is an actually functional game, which makes it leagues better than BW could ever be.

Unfortunately SC2 is plagued by disruptors, Banelings and whatever the TvT equivalent is.

>>361967307
I'd love to play LoL if it was a 1v1 game where you controlled 5 units. That seems like an amazing idea.

I'd pick up LoL this instant if that were the case. You control 5 hero units with spells and you need to control them in an arena setting.

Right now it's a 30 APM borefest.

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>>361967360

>>361966834
sc2 died when stephano stop the competition
now it's just a chink swamp

>>361967463
That's not the only thing wrong with it. The whole bruiser-jungler-ap-ad-supp comp on the same lanes gets boring. Incredibly boring. Everytime a team found a more unique way to play and securing victory Riot either bans the team or changes the game to make that strategy impossible. A completey stale game.

For an extra laugh read their excuse for not inputting a sandbox mode in the game. It's incredibly pahetic the lenghts they go to make excuses for themselves.

>>361967360
Neither can you.

That is why I prefer to play SCII which has QoL features that mean I don't have to be a 300 APM gook with carpal tunnel syndrome to be called semi-decent. Still competitive as you climb up the ladder because you are actually fighting your opponents, not the game.

>>361967152
I mean that I prefer to watch games I can go and play and do a poor imitation of some pro I like.

I enjoy watching BW too but I could never actually play it properly. And neither can most people defending it on this thread.
>>361967413
Widow Mines is the T version. I like Banelings and Disruptors, but WM are fucking cancer in TvP. They come out faster and are cheaper than the detection Protoss needs to deal with them

every sc2 game is 2 players dancing around each other until their deathballs eventually are collide. then the fight is over in 5 seconds and one player is left in an unrecoverable position.

sc1 games actually have fights happening through the game and over the entire map.

>>361967661
If Blizzard had the same mentality about BW back in 2000s the game would have never taken off.

I think a few balance changes could be made to BW, like slight buff to DAs, Queens and Ghosts soo we see them every 20th game not every 50th.

However, BW evolved because the players kept finding ways to deal with the obviously broken balance of the game, and map makers accomodated the players with balanced maps for the current metagames.

And after over a decade of player innovation and mapmaker innovation we got a pretty balanced game.

Like Dark Swarm, Siege Tanks, Storms, Reavers, etc are all broken units, but if you play against them correctly and use your own broken units it balances out.

If you were to nerf those OP units you'd get a very stale, but mathematically balanced game, like I assume what happens in lol

>>361967923
LoTV has changed a lot in this aspect though.

Bases run out faster so you are forced to expand earlier and contest the map instead of sitting back and amass your races deathball on 2 bases.

>>361967829
I was talking in terms of mirrors.
Mirrors should be the most interesting games and yet it's just "lol I make
banelings/disruptors which instantly kill any unit you can make right now"

Widow Mines aren't really like that.
TvT is too fast for mines to do much offensively and you can move armies quickly around minefields if you want to.

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>>361966630
>skill ceilling floors

>>361967829
I don't think you need to have a positive win record to enjoy Brood War.

You can enjoy Brood War on a totally casual level and the game is still amazing.

I would point to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf5gJ2Ym92M

A BGH 2v2v2v2 game being one of the more entertaining games I've ever seen, and it's just a bunch of scrubs.

>>361968016
Look I think Early and Mid Game in SC2 can be quite enjoyable to watch, but once things go Death Ball status in the late game, it becomes bland.

BW doesn't have this problem, and if SC2 was redesigned, it wouldn't either. Imagine if SC2 units had larger collision, so that not your entire 200/200 army could participate in a battle at once.

That alone would make the late game more interesting.

>>361967962

Yeah, if you look just at the main armies, Terrans should just steamroll over everything. But a few spells from Protoss and Zerg and suddenly the opposite can happen. It's very dynamic. I really wouldn't want Blizz to even dare touch the game now as it's, weirdly somehow totally balanced.

Probably the worst for broken would be Vultures since you really should change SOMETHING about them. They're fast, lay mines, and only cost a ridiculous 75 minerals. Not even any gas.

>>361967962
Strategies using those units can still evolve and be used creatively. Blizzard never outright made them impossible just made them require more clever thinking and situational implementation.
Riot on the other hands constantly puts down any chance at innovations the meta could have. You won't see teams attempting to put an adc on top anymore for instance. Double mid, two bruisers on bot, trilane instead of jungling all this shit is downright impossible.

>>361968068
ZvZ is actually better than its ever been now.

Ling/Bane wars are pretty intense early on but that is basically over the moment Roaches come out. But instead of having Roach wars all over again, there are Lurkers and Ravagers now, and Spore Crawlers have been made worse against Mutas so that those exist too.

>>361966630
Competitive RTS is about memorizing build orders, memorizing the rock-paper-scissors between units, and showing off your 1337 clicky clicky per second. They aren't even games at that point anymore.

>>361968016
brood wars bases last much longer than even vanilla sc2 bases and it didnt have deathballs.

deathballs make it not fun to watch but that is just a symptom of other problems.
units die way too fast. the damage to health ratio of most units means everything dies in seconds under fire.
almost every unit has some gimmick. its more about who can use their units gimmicks the best in the fight than anything else.
in broodwar every race had mostly basic units and the advanced spell casters were higher tech units that came out later. in sc2 pretty much every non zerg unit thats not a zealot/marine has some special ability that needs to be used. when the fight happens the screen can sometimes be covered in special effects. coupled with the fast unit death speeds and sometimes it feels like youre just watching THINGS HAPPENING without actually knowing whats going on.

>>361966630
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76UNcuKSVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrfPa8DsUT4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVIsP09vE4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8lVl0FLwLw


There's no definitive "best competitive game", just like there is no best competitive sport. People who make such arguments are just casuals who've got attached to one competitive game.


BW, Dota, Melee, Tribes, SavageXR, CPMA, 3rd strike and HL:adrenaline gamer are some my favourite competitive games to play and watch.

ITT: Whitey making excuses

>>361968474
>Im garbage at the game : the post

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>>361966630

I think it's just more the difference in the times.

CS in general was a really weird game to play competitively because standardization is not really a thing and everything is wonky. Original 1.6 and Source never had major changes besides engine reworks, however the competitive scene went wherever the leagues went and nothing really was genrealized. However, with the current release of GO and all the mechanic changes both fundamentally and specifically towards equipment and gun handling...game really is completely different and it's hard to tell whether it's for a good or bad.

Watch wise, it's an interesting game because the level of mechanical changes makes it more interesting to watch as a spectator, since it adds a new level of depth and strategy. However, the game at a base level is fundamentally fucked compared to it's past iterations because of how the game just shits the bed with it's moderate list of glitches, bugs, shoddy hit-reg and overall "Somehow this game runs like shit on an expensive rig" and "Literally only 2 maps are optimized for actual general play".

I'll let you know whether my opinion changes once I play my first major tournament next weekend.

>>361968474
Competitive FPS is about memorising item spawns, memorising the level geometry and showing of your 1337 reactions. They aren't even games at that point anymore.

Fuck off shitbox

https://youtu.be/JJNnrjy-B-c?list=PLdKukOb2ub8K0At6bY1hgGKg-VOBsfdFA

>>361966834
What's impressive about Starcraft 2 when it's nothing more than just memorization and faster clicking?

>>361968893
That and because of how "E-Sports" is as a whole now, it's easier to standardize it as a competitive game, it no longer has to chase specific orgs and sponsors since it's now easier to promote and generate cash on, as opposed to the lack of NA support back in the day when ESEA was for a long while after CEVO, CPL and Cal went outta order.

Now a days it's literally everyone is having a tournament and there's a potential to compete at any skill level both competitively and casually, but the defining line between where you make it and break it is clearly defined and no longer is one of those "Oh I made money, I guess I'm a pro" thing. Since the quality of the tournaments and exposure alone really determines that now.

Or a high sallaried player.

>>361968474
>Has never played RTS.

At least in Brood War Rock-paper-scissors doesn't work 90% the time. Sure tanks can't shoot up, and get buttfucked by Carriers without Goliath support.

But technically Dragons>Vultures, except that Vultures are soo fucking fast you can mine up Dragons and make them explode and if you have like 10 vultures vs 6 dragons, the vultures win if micro'd

6 dragons rape 6 vultures however

starcraft 2 unit design seems to be
"we need to add a new unit for the expansion, what gimmick can we add that won't be overpowered and won't be useless."

old school broodwar design felt more like
"i got a cool idea for a unit. we'll tweak the balance numbers later after the players mess around with it."

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>>361966630
I think SC2 is far better, to be honest.

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Can any game cinema ever possibly surpass this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-00uQzXyujI&list=LLCsZXZg3lzh88RPhBtcTK0w&t=1s&index=6

>>361968474
build orders don't actually matter.
It's a simplified approach to the way the game is actually played, due to long hours of playtime.
A build order is nothing more than a formalized instruction set which allows you to meet certain timings if you execute it perfectly. Blindly following builds will never win you games at slightly higher levels.

>>361968456
Why would you ever play anything but Roaches until you need something else?

Roaches are cheap and hit harder than anything else at that stage of the game.
If you skip roaches, you usually get your shit pushed in by them, because you can't push against a decent amount of roaches with lings, best you can do is counter.
And mutas can kill roaches, yes, but you can just trade your roaches in for buildings, drones and queens. Mutas can't push decisively either.

>>361968972
Competitive FPS's differ though game to game.

Quake and any general "ARENA" type game was fucking GOAT. 1v1 Arena FPS's were different in the sense that a lot of emphasis was individual. Yeah, map design, memorizing spawns and shit were important but it was utilizing that information to make a game plan. I won't lie when I say that games like CS don't hold a candle to the older generation when Quake and UT2004 were king..but at the same time it's a different generation now.

Team games are more important, and they seem to be more popular to watch. Quake now a days is so underappreciated but only because nobody can fucking make a good game now a days. CSGO is barely enough to hold a candle to the older games as a game title, but as a competitive title it takes the cake. It's just the changes in generation. Even the new Quake is looking pretty shitty.

>>361969290
It was a joke you autist

>>361969241
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SonuvBob/podcasts/Day%5B9%5D0010-NewLookAtBuilds.mp3

People generally don't understand what Build Orders actually are, it's not a never changing instruction set.

If somebody thinks thats what a build order is, they've never played above a very basic level

@361969160
Factually incorrect and you're just saying it for replies.

>>361969479
lurk moar

Really like the new update.

Finally Terran has a chance in tournaments, and it's not 80% PvP shit.
Also very glad Zerg can't just MMMMMMMMMMM anymore.

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>>361969479
Have you ever used this site before, faggot?

>>361969241
> If you skip roaches, you usually get your shit pushed in by them

Yeah you should never skip them unless you are basically all-inning on Ling/Bane. You should always throw down a Roach Warren at some point even if you intend to make as few roaches as possible.

Usually pros will switch into Mutas after massing Roaches at some point, they don't rush them. They can clear Overlord map vision, they can push back Roaches and buy you time and map control, they force spores out of your opponents and can kill workers if you catch him off guard.

Rushing Mutas is never a good idea in any matchup. I always laugh every time I kill some dude trying to rush Mutas on ladder and I drop 16 Marines on his third and there is absolutely nothing to defend.

>>361969290
Quake-like games need a strong entry that brings players with solid matchmaking. Right now is like if you played SCII and you were only matched against Diamonds while being new. It feels oppressive even.

They are so far ahead in map control its scary, and once they pick the Red Armour and the Mega Health there is absolutely nothing you can do to get a single kill if you are not very good.
Very unforgiving genre yeah. Good matchmaking is a MUST because skill disparity will make you go 99-0

I hope Quake Champions does a decent effort in pushing 1v1. I hate team games.

>>361969108
>6 dragons rape 6 vultures however

You can plant mines up front, which forces perfect Dragoon control. Or you run away.

The real hard counter is Siege tanks vs. Dragoons. Which is why you just never do that fight.

>>361969810
Nobody gives a shit about SC2, calm down. The

>>361966630
>low skill ceilling floors?
you wot m8

>>361969859
Since when in small numbers Dragons do quite well versus Siege tanks.

It only becomes a counter in the midgame, in the early game 4-5 Dragons are quite good at picking off 2-3 Siege tanks + a few marines, even if sieged

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>>361966630
>dota is shallow in a "competative sense"
Nice la
> low skill ceilling floors?
Literally lmaoing right now

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>>361969810
Reflex at least tried to do something like a MM system where they used an elo-based system that was used as a universal rank through all forms of play. It was was respective of whether players WANTED to play better players, but gave a numerical value to determine "YOUR" skill level and gave you information to show your relativity to other players. There were zero limits to who you played or how you played and it was easy to figure out who was new, and who was good based on their W/L, Elo/MMR and their overall weapon stats. Which all were available from lobby. They kept the 1v1 duel queueing system like Quake originally brought in too.

I love Quake, and I still play Quake live from time to time to play 1v1's with some people I used to duel with non stop. I don't have a lot of hope for Quake Champions though. Especially not after D44M.

I'll just go back to playing CSGO though. It's about the only thing I have left.

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>>361966630
No.

>>361970430
Reflex looks pretty hype, but sadly lacks players ATM

>>361970752
I feel. I only play it when my friends are on and that's rare as fuck since we play reflex as a meme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP3frQvZJw

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Skill

Flash>Jaedong>Bisu>Power Gap>Average BW Pro>Power Gap>Dota Pros>LoL Pros>SC2 Pros

>>361970430
>>361970752
Just play cpm. It's not shit and it's free. Also lacks all the TF faggots too

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There will be no perfect game anymore, because they are all based on microtransactions and making people buy stuff turns into their "meta" of what people should buy next instead having a game and patch it to a point where it's the best it can be.

>>361969446
Is that day9 before sc2 came even out?

>>361972241
Yes. Post-BW Day9 is irrelevant. BW was the only game Day9 was good at.

>>361972338
I just checked his youtube and it turned into a hearthstone channel and he became really fat, oh well.

>>361972668
Day9 always was and always will be where the money is

>>361973076
BULLSHIT.

He made what, maybe 10,000$ from his Pan-America win in 2007.

He played Brood War on a competative level and attended tournaments from 2001 to 2009, because he loved the game.

Yeah, right now he is selling out, but he legitimately played BW because he loved to be a competitor and he enjoyed the game, however I don't doubt for a moment he hated the fuck out of SC2 and stuck with it for the $$$

>>361973482
Yeah I should probably shut up. Hooray for anonymity

Damn, SC1 had nice aesthetics and atmosphere. In 2 everything looks like plastic toys, inflatable toys in zerg case. Voice acting is better too, those zerg noises, in sc2 they sound like squeaky toys.

>>361973934
>Damn, SC1 had nice aesthetics and atmosphere.

It's incredibly generic late 90s aesthetic, though.
The game looks like crap aesthetically unless you're a 90s babby who never saw proper SCI-FI.

Both Starcrafts were shit in that regard.

>>361973903
No, I'm not selling day9 isn't a sellout, I'm saying he wasn't always a sellout.

>>361974281
>Not saying*

I'm autistic