>Point out legitimate flaws in a game >"u mad cuz

Any old outdated game from the 90s

You're favourite game.

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Fire Emblem cucks

>>359734284
/v/

>>359734284
People who play 4X games.

You can have functional, good-looking and easy to navigate UI while also having depth.

any Souls game
any competitive (or """competitive""")-heavy / e-sports meme game like Dota, CS:GO, Overwatch etc.

Dark Souls.

>>359734353
>game
>outdated
Are you 17?

>>359735296
To be honest, I'll be glad to sacrifice a bit of functionality for actual visual design and textured menus.

What good is efficient UI when it's minimalistic glassy shit that makes the game look like an OS?

>>359735259
/thread

>>359735410
>mechanics and controls can't become outdated

Retard

>>359735384
This. I love the series but there are serious valence issues in every entry.

>>359735710
balance* fuck I'm tired

>>359734353
this, or souls games or even worse yet, platformers that try to be "retro"

>>359735635
If mechanics and controls in the game are shit, they were always shit, even on release.
The only things that can become outdated are irrelevant aspects like graphics or animations.

>>359735954
No, bad animations were also always bad.

>>359735954
most people agree that mechanics age as they get better, a game from 1996 doesnt control as tightly as a game from 2007, which makes going back to said games feel as if they aged

>>359736338
>most people agree that mechanics age as they get better
mechanics of most genres peaked in late 90s

>>359734284
Blizzdrones

>>359735954
>they were always shit, even on release.
Wrong retard, it was new back then and there was no standard on how it should work and many people back then adhered to it still and enjoyed it

>>359736632
Kiss whom?

Sonyggers

>>359736448
name some
also. no, they're always evolving, which means that the mechanics we'll have in 2030 wont be the same as the ones nowadays, savepoints may make a comeback, or some other type of saving feature may arise, same goes for physics, graphics, hair/fur tech, and controls

Souls is pretty bad recently.

Just as bad though is the crowd that thinks their opinions are 'legitimate flaws' and throws around over-generalized buzzwords like they're objective facts to justify it.

>>359736632
Learn English before you post here shitskin

It's spelled 'kiss'.

>>359736338
Quake 3 has better controls than Overwatch

>>359734284
Dark Souls and Bloodborne fanbase.

dark souls

i've beaten all games multiple times with various builds from sl1 to broken straight sword, and every time i say that some boss is utter trash even if i have no problems with him i just hear "git gud"

soulbabies are the worst kind of human trash

>>359736759
>FPS
HL1, Q3A
>RPG
Baldur's Gate
>JRPG
FF series, Vagrant Story
>fighting games
Super Turbo
>RTS
StarCraft, Red Alert series, etc.

Dark Souls 1, especially if you talk about PVP's flaws

>>359734284
nah anon
u mad cuz u bad!

>>359736338
>a game from 1996 doesnt control as tightly as a game from 2007
The fuck does this mean. Are you retarded? Tight controls are also not inherently positive, it depends completely on what the games are trying to achieve. Or what, is Sonic worse than some shallow shit like Shovel Knight because its controls aren't immediately comfortable, ignoring all the depth and challenge that comes with managing your momentum?

>>359737081
8-bit FF titles and Half Life have absolutely aged. HL still has lots of cool TECHNOLOGY and AI interactions, but the mechanics of gameplay have been surpassed.

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>>359734284

>>359734284

Anything from From
MOBAs

>>359734284
any game by Blizzard Blizzcuck are the worst fanbase anywhere fuck those shit eating scumbags.

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Any RPG that prides itself on how "hard" it is, usually Wizardry-likes, like the SMT series.

Also, the shittiest one of them all would easily be Space Station 13. Worst gameplay interface I've ever seen, laggy as fuck, requires an entire fucking wikipedia just to START to understand it, and the community is infested with Goons and 13 year-old /b/ users who pick out a clown and immediately try to stuff everyone into a locker and wield it shut.

But still

>You just hate it because you suck at it. SS13 is the greatest game ever made.

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>>359737250
>Shovel Knight
>Shallow shit
>In the same breath; Implying that Sonic wasn't shallow shit that was being a Mario clone made to show off "blast processing".

Way to out yourself as completely unqualified to join this discussion

battlefield1 (I meant battlefront 1 community)

>>359736923
You're right, there will always be exceptions
Quake is an incredibly well made game all around
I have not played vanilla quake, only the source ports

>>359737081
>HL1
Seriously now, HL1 is pretty clunky when compared to many modern shooters, especially the gunplay

RPG is such a broad genre I dont even know if it counts really, also, that's 5 genres out of 20 maybe,

>>359737250
maybe you're the retard, friend. shovel knight and sonic are both platformers, but they're so different they might as well be different genres, like how overwatch and ARMA 3 are both FPS, but comparing both is absolutely retarded

if want me to elaborate then okay, "tight" as in the controls feel responsive, you press a button and the action happens, there is no delay, I'm not quite sure how to explain since the analogy between sonic and shovel knight was so bad,

think a game with good controls, like some platformers and hack'n'slash, now think games with BAD controls, like Sonic 06

>>359736923
Explain how

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>Point out legitimate flaws in a game.
>"Shut up sonygger" or "Shut up nintenyearold"

>>359734284
Kid Icarus Uprising

>>359737652
Sorry friend, we're not talking about marketing but the gameplay and in terms of gameplay depth and challenge, Sonic beats Shovel Knight by a mile. That's not the only example though. Take Mario 64 for example and compare it to Crash Bandicoot 2. SM64 has more loose controls but there's so much depth to be discovered in the game's movement and so many optimizations to be made. Crash handles much tighter yet you basically master its mechanics by playing for a few minutes.

>>359737825
>NEVER EVER

>>359737675
>if want me to elaborate then okay, "tight" as in the controls feel responsive, you press a button and the action happens, there is no delay
Then older games are much better than most modern ones since they ran at acceptable framerates.

>falling for the democracy meme

>>359734284
SF5 shills

>tight controls are an argument
So what, if you're commited to your animations by design and can't do instant sickass cancels, it's bad because it's not "tight"?

>>359734284
Skullgirls
Any bad fighting game

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>Point out that a game is using the same exact marketing schemes as previously bad games.
>"It's not out yet bro you can't say it's gonna be bad."

>>359735128
All of them jumped ship when it became a dating sim. Try again edgelord.

>>359734284

All of them.

>>359734284
Witcher 1 fans. Literally the most autistically defensive fanbase there is.

Kid Icarus: Uprising also gets a honorary mention here.

>>359736213

Yes, so? He said they become outdated, which means if they were good, they can become bad, and if they were bad, they can become worse.
Maybe homeschooling wasn't such a good idea.

>>359735954
Tell that to Goldeneye.

>>359734284
Many, instead of whining, they try to get around those flaws.
See: Stockholm syndrome 14 (FF14)

>>359738057

Remind me of the /v/ comic.

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>>359737871
>Sorry friend, we're not talking about marketing but the gameplay
Excuse you. I'm talking purely about the gameplay of sonic. Sonic's one, key defining trait is the fact that he runs fast. That's it. That's his sole gimmick. So how does Sonic 1-3 handle this?

By putting a shit load of obstacles in your way to slowly hop and think about your next jump, ala Mario without any real abilities other than run and jump. Oh! But you get a loop de loop every once in a while. What do they do?

Well, nothing. But they're there!

Meanwhile, Shovel Knight is built on the back of years and years of 2D platforming greatness, with every design aspect being meticulously calculated to give you obstacles you care about and have to properly think through and taking a lot more skill than Sonic ever put out.

In short, you have continued to prove you are unqualified for intelligent discussion in this subject. If you're hoping for more (you)'s, this is your last from me.

morrowind

a lot of you faggots like the dog shit combat

gta v

>>359737957
in a sense yes, but FPS isnt the only thing that impacts gameplay and the mechanics

>>359738043
nice projecting, but no, in dark souls for example the gameplay and controls are pretty tight (except for the horrendous jump) it did it's gameplay the way it set out to, as a, mostly, 1v1 combat, just because you cant do the same shit across all action game that doesnt make it bad

>>359737957
>they ran at acceptable framerates.
Underage detected

>>359738147
Had a great Witcher 1 thread here yesterday, half of it was one sperg screaming underage and Xbot at everyone who even dared to suggest that the game isn't perfect.

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>Game is literally an unfinished, unpolished piece of garbage that has terrible controls, bad netcode, horrible UI, and terrible gunplay, as well as the fact that the developers are literally not allowed to make the game good because their publisher is trying to milk them for every cent that they have.
>Everyone I know loves it and prefers to play it over any other multiplayer game other than Overwatch.

>>359734284
>OP's pic shows us an average German on a computer.

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>>359738243
>Sonic's one, key defining trait is the fact that he runs fast. That's it. That's his sole gimmick.
Sonic is about momentum

>>359738404
What the hell? When this game first came out, it was so bad that Gabe personally removed it from the store and gave everyone refunds.

>>359738243
>Sonic's one, key defining trait is the fact that he runs fast
Nope, ask any experienced player and they will tell you the game is all about controlling your momentum in a smart way. The basic movement is all about familiarizing yourself with the game's relatively complex physics engine and there are a lot of nuances to be picked up as you play the game. Shovel Knight's basic movement's not like that at all. There is no depth to be found there, you press a button in a direction and he moves there. To compensate for this the game has other mechanics in the form of the abilities which you can use in a smart way but that does not change the fact that the movement itself in the game is very shallow compared to the movement in Sonic.

>>359738327
>assuming I'm talking about the garbage that are the PS1 and N64
Good going kiddo

>>359738147
>>359738379
This >>359689835?

For fun, try ctrl+f'ing words ADHD, Xbox and kid in that thread.

I'm just going to say this and I doubt anyone will read it but most of the time people that complain about mechanics in Dark Souls don't understand how the game works. They believe something may be a bug when in fact they simply need to get good.

>>359737868
>the controls are perfect!
>never mind that they had to include a fucking stand to make it playable

>>359738921
Too much innovation for you?

>>359735384
kek git gud scrub

>>359738573
Since your argument interested me, I'll respond.

Basically, you're wrong. Here's why.

Nothing in the game is about momentum. Not a single thing. Sonic does have a small section where he can build up speed to reach his max, but this is ultimately wasted. There isn't a single obstacle in the game that can't be traversed in sonic 1 from a complete standstill. The only thing that momentum is required for is breaking some blocks, usually on a lower level, and traversing a loop de loop which basically builds up the momentum for you in order to do so. Sonic can even build up speed while jumping from a complete stand still.

No, calling Sonic's gameplay as gameplay about momentum is wrong from the very start. Sonic's gameplay is purely platforming. Sonic's GIMMICK is his speed. And a result of speed being implemented is that there is a bit of momentum involved in the game, which is more or less based on Super Mario Bros 1 & 3 having momentum mechanics. But unlike Sonic, SMB1 & 3 actually USE their momentum as a mechanic for making certain jumps, and not having enough speed can and will result in your death. This is definitely not the case with Sonic.

Meanwhile, Shovel Knight does move to his max speed in and instant, but his speed is slowed down in general to deal with the environment which uses his ability to jump, dig, and pogo effectively throughout the entire game repeatedly to a point where if you do not master these mechanics, you will lose time and time again.

Trying to imply that Sonic is anywhere near the levels of technical finesse or even good gameplay decisions as Shovel Knight is pure nostalgia talking.

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>Only legitimate flaw the game has is that you need to get used to a weird control scheme.
>After getting used to it it's a 10/10 game.

How is this not a justifiable "Git Gud?" Sure, if we're talking about SF:Zero, where the controls aren't bad when you get used to them but it's still a really bad game, I'd understand, but games like La-mulana and Kid Icarus Uprising are 10/10 outside of their controls, but in many ways wouldn't be playable without their control schemes.

>>359734284
The Fighting Game Community.

Street Fighter V

>"everyone complaining is either a casual or a bronze/silver league shitter"

constantly.

>>359736338
Super Mario world controls better than knack

>>359739617
And SMB3 controls better than World.

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>>359739338
>Nothing in the game is about momentum. Not a single thing
What? Maybe the new games. But the old ones are based on momentum. You even have a roll that accelerates you faster down inclines in the classic games.

>>359735259
>>359735534

do you redditors feel clever when you post shit like this every thread?

>>359739338
Not him but why the fuck are you even comparing the two? They are completely different styles of game in the same genre.

>>359739338
What are you talking about? You have to slow down and speed up to maintain decent speed and not run into obstacles especially in the second and third games. Take a look at any speedrun of Sonic for an example of how important momentum management is at higher levels of play. The fact that managing momentum is not absolutely required for just survival does not make the depth suddenly disappear because it's still something that's vital if you want to maintain a good pace when rushing through levels. You can finish SM64 without exploring even a fraction of what Mario can do but that does not mean the mechanical depth isn't there, you can criticize the levels for not being built to require these techniques all you want but the discussion is purely about a game's controls. Also I have no nostalgia towards Sonic, I don't even like the games much and would play Shovel Knight over them any day, but you'd be insane to say that Shovel Knight has anywhere near the same amount of depth that Sonic does.

>>359734284
Fromdrones
>lightning is absolute shit in every game they ever made
>"lel casual play the entire game as lvl 1 or you have no opinion eksdee"

>>359737081
>fighting games
If you really believe these peaked in the 90s, you must have quit then as well. I vastly prefer Virtua Fighter 4 Final Tuned over 2 because of all of the improved movement. The moon jumps were removed, sidestepping was added, and it felt like the whole thing ran smoother. While I certainly appreciate the high damage nature of games like Super Turbo and KoF 98, there's a charm to the long combo styles of something like KoF XIII or Guilty Gear XX (especially with the Accent Core Plus R refinements) as well.

>>359739875
I'm not saying that the momentum isn't important to the game feel, but I'm saying that it isn't used in the design of the obstacles or courses and isn't really used to any effect in those elements.

Let's look at the example of your webm, and the webm posted above.

In your webm, the momentum in that area would be used purely to get past a loop de loop, which again, is a non obstacle designed to speed you up through a speed section, which exists purely to show you how "blast processing" works. What does that contribute to the gameplay, when the gameplay is of the stereotypical platformer that requires you to come to a full stop, and jump from platform to platform. Look at Star Lite Zone. Look at any of the Casino Nights stages. Look at Labyrinth Zone, Hydrocity, or the Robotnik stages. All of them require you to jump around the obstacles carefully and concisely at slow speeds, and the jumps aren't affected by movement.

Then look at the webm above, where the guy just hops on the backs of several enemies for 30 seconds. What does that accomplish in terms of gameplay, exactly? It's 100% pointless. Nothing was traversed in that time span, and the game can't effectively use that speed thanks to the small resolution and inability to see oncoming targets. That webm above is literally impossible without analyzing the enemies in that area and trying to purposefully jump on them.

>>359740158
Because this guy: >>359737250

>>359740324
You mean lightning as in electric weapons or lighting as in graphics?

Because if it's the former, lightning is very viable in DaS1, it lets you build for bare minimum str/dex and focus on other stats.

Define "legitimate flaw."

Overwatch
every early-access generic zombie game

>>359740774
Something that you don't like after playing for 5 minutes

>>359734284
The sjw fanbase.

>>359740774
something like >>359733463

>>359734284
Every Dark souls demon souls game ever.

>>359740180
In addition to the arguments stated above, I completely disagree with that statement. First, most speedruns of sonic just abuse glitches, and then hop on enemy backs to sail across the stages, avoiding any interaction with the actual gameplay design in the game. This isn't a strength or proof of anything, honestly.

Second, like I said, it's not that the system doesn't use the speed or momentum, it's that the system is incapable of doing so in a well designed way. Sonic cannot see far enough ahead to use momentum in any real way gameplay wise. This is why, again, you have such stages as Labyrinth zone, which completely mitigate most momentum usages, or even stages like Chemical Plant zone which are 70% speed sections as opposed to actual gameplay. Speedrunners can use momentum and speed to skip over obstacles because they know the stage layout like the back of their hand, but to someone playing for the first time, which is what gameplay design must be designed around, you cannot create a game that has you go that fast and throw enemies in your path and force you to use the momentum in a meaningful way.

Third, even if you somehow could use it in such a way, the fact that they don't means that the game really doesn't have any depth. Mario 64 has depth because you're required to use EVERY single trick in the book in order to collect the necessary stars within the game. The game is designed around Mario's moveset and uses it to its advantage. A game like say, Dynasty Warriors, where they have full fledged combo systems that can easily be ignored for just mashing combos out and maybe some strategy derailment on the side, then you can't say that the game actually has depth because there is never a situation that requires you to use it.

Finally: Suggesting that Sonic, a single button game that is built counter-intuitively than Shovel Knight, a game that mixes mechanics from the greatest platforming games of the NES era is lunacy.

>>359740679
loops are obstacles design around speed and momentum. Even one of the complaints Sonic 1 gets is that its dificult to get up loops and you have to walk back to attempt it again. Watch any beginer play Sonic 1.

>which exists purely to show you how "blast processing" works
are you just some guy who got scorned by the 90 Sonic commercials?

>Then look at the webm above, where the guy just hops on the backs of several enemies for 30 seconds. What does that accomplish in terms of gameplay, exactly?
Points, chaining bounces gets points it also it can make short cuts. That webm is just showing off the physics.

>That webm above is literally impossible without analyzing the enemies in that area and trying to purposefully jump on them.
Playing a game multiple makes you get better at it? What a novel concept

>>359734284
>like popular game
>massive shitstorm

>>359738540
Are you thinking of The WarZ?

Maybe I'm mixing up games, though.

>>359741498
>I like thing
>people try to convince me that no, I don't

>>359741565
Isn't that the same game? I thought H1z1 was just WarZ: the revenge. Maybe I heard wrong, I didn't play either.

>>359738653
>guy challenges guy to list 50 WRPGs
>he actually fucking does it

holy fuck

>>359741253

Except that the loop-de-loops don't actually require that much momentum to begin with. There's a famous webm out there showing that Sonic 1-3, you can go from a standstill to over the "obstacle" with very, VERY little build up. The webm then shows off sonic 4 and how the same build up stops him in his tracks.

However, even if we suppose you're right, that's all 100% wasted because Sonic in 2 and beyond now has a spindash which gives you all the momentum you could ever want for free which completely nullifies it as a challenge of the game.

>are you just some guy who got scorned by the 90 Sonic commercials?
Actually, I used to be a hardcore Sonic Fanboy. Then I played Sonic Heroes. After I became disillusioned, I took a critical look at my old favorites and realized that Sonic was never really good to begin with.

>Points
Points are worthless. Even if you want to argue that it gets you extra lives, there are easier ways to do that, and you're honestly better off practicing the main game rather than a parlor trick.

The short cuts thing is very rare, and honestly, most of the time you can short cut just by knowing when to jump. Which leads into the next point:

>Playing a game multiple makes you get better at it? What a novel concept
The difference here is between someone casually playing it over and over again and getting naturally good at the game and learning all the secrets, etc, etc, vs someone who spent a LOOOT of time and studying just to learn this single, pointless trick to show off in a game.

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The fighting game community in general is kind of like this, but it got especially bad with the Capcom esports push leading to people forgiving huge flaws because they thought they could win money if they played these games for long enough.
>put 500 hours into Guy over the various installments of Street Fighter IV
>eventually decide that I really don't care for the game all that much
>say in a thread "I don't like some of the mechanics in SFIV. Ultras are a really stupid comeback mechanic since you get them for free and can combo into them, even from a easy target combo and are free damage"
>idiots in thread go "LEL, JUST GIT GUD, FAGGOT! IF YOU'RE GETTING HIT BY ULTRAS, YOU JUST SUCK" ad infinitum and I get drowned in 20 variations of that comment
>a few years pass and Capcom drops USFIV to put all of their efforts into pushing SFV as the new big game
>suddenly every retard on /v/ and /fgg/ is going "Ugh, glad we're done with SFIV, that game was nothing but bullshit vortex combos and long cinematic ultras" including tripfags that attacked me for what I said
It's much like how no one was allowed to say anything bad about Street Fighter x Tekken when it was still being pushed. Almost as if I can't get an honest opinion from some people until years after the game is done.

Oh, and while not the same thing, I've noticed that the guys that play visual novels are very insecure. I once tried to point out why I thought Clannad is a bad story and got bombarded with "FUCK OFF NORMIE, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, 3D WOMEN ARE NOT IMPORTANT" even though I'm the kind of guy that has never had a girlfriend and jacks it to Japanese animated pornography at least once a day. Apparently you are automatically a normalfag if you point out how another VN has better writing than a given anon's favorite. This also happened when I said bad things about some of the character designs in BlazBlue.

>>359738202
GoldenEye's controls always sucked. It was just that there wasn't much of an alternative control scheme as there is for console FPS today.

Not that it really matters. Except for the Wii console FPS in general still have abominable controls.

>>359741710
As far as I'm aware, they are not the same.

The genre just kind of blurs together when you look at them at a glance, I suppose.

Dark Souls. It's funny because the poor AI and the slow simplistic combat means the game becomes a cake walk once you know the levels. Or you could always just abuse the broken as fuck magic system. It says a lot about the quality of the game when one of the core combat features is so out of balance and poorly implemented that using it is tantamount to cheating.

>>359741915
>Except that the loop-de-loops don't actually require that much momentum to begin with
They require momentum, fact
>I took a critical look at my old favorites and realized that Sonic was never really good to begin with.
Oh so you're one of those guys.
> and you're honestly better off practicing the main game rather than a parlor trick.
Landing on multiple enemies in a chain with precision isn't a parlor trick, that's having a well grasp on the games mechanics.

and shortcuts aren't rare

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>>359742527

>They require momentum, fact
In the minimalist sense of the word, yes, I supposed they do.
>Oh so you're one of those guys.
Oh look. You're boring me again. And you were doing so well. I think this time really will be my last (you) for you.
>Landing on multiple enemies in a chain with precision isn't a parlor trick, that's having a well grasp on the games mechanics.
Utilizing a sheer amount of talent to perform something that is otherwise useless is, in fact, the definition of a parlor trick. Like I said before, bouncing on that many enemies, especially when you need to go backwards, with the small resolution of the screen where you literally can't even see anything other than sky and sonic, therefore requiring you to study the enemy positions of the easiest stage in the game, is in fact a parlor trick.

>and shortcuts aren't rare
Unless you're including areas where you have to break a wall to pass through, shortcuts are actually pretty rare in Sonic, what with its whole design scheme based on the three tracts. But you probably didn't even know that much coming into this discussion.

Toodles.

>>359741189
>First, most speedruns of sonic just abuse glitches
Doesn't matter, there are glitchless categories which do not. You are attempting to sidestep the point which is that momentum management is key to optimizing your pace when playing through the levels, it's a fact.
>it's not that the system doesn't use the speed or momentum, it's that the system is incapable of doing so in a well designed way
Wasn't your original argument, and has nothing to do with the original discussion which is focused on the movement mechanics themselves rather than the camera system. The depth only showing up on repeated playthroughs after the players do some trial and error memorization is completely irrelevant and pretty much expected.
>you can't say that the game actually has depth because there is never a situation that requires you to use it
There are constantly situations where it's used though, and you could throw in a ranking system to grade players for how well they maintain speed. Doesn't change anything though, the movement has depth because it there are a lot of variables at play thanks to the physics engine which influence your movement. This is not the case in Shovel Knight, it derives its depth from abilities and level design, not its mechanics.

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>>359737825
What I hate is when people ask for your opinion on a game, you give it, and then they say "I'm not reading all of that autism, fuck off," not even bothering to listen to your rebuttal. I swear, most of /v/ must be marketers or children now.

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>>359739875
The guy that responded to you is absolutely right. Mechanical depth is not dependent on it being a requisite for survival or game completion.

>>359740679
The fact that slopes exist at all is proof that momentum is incorporated into the gameplay. Sonic's physics are based on slope interaction. While speed is not required for the goal, the game does grade performance with score, which is increased by faster clear times and busting badniks. At this point, it should be clear that Sonic is not meant to be approached like an ordinary platformer, but the real challenge lies in optimization through building knowledge of the course designs and mastery of Sonic's mechanics. Again, the primary goal of the game does not need to require this; the depth is still there and Sonic has a very high skill ceiling for a platformer.

>>359741189
First, because most speedruns abuse glitches does not change the point. There are glitchless speedruns too that show the gameplay can get extremely technical. Higher play very much exists.

Second, you've already contradicted yourself. You said the game is designed to play like an ordinary platformer. Thus whatever is essential to gameplay is within view... at any pace. Whether Sonic is moving very slow or very fast, the same things are within view. This means it's technically a matter of player reaction time. You have a lot of room for variable speed even on a first run, and this can be improved with repetition. This same kind of iterative skill building is present in pretty much any game, especially platformers, but Sonic takes it further with an ever increasing potential for speed.

Third, yes, this does mean the game has depth. Again, the mechanics are not required to clear the game's goal. The depth is still there. Sonic can still be played at a higher level.

Finally: One button action =/= shallow mechanics. This is already showing just how little you understand Sonic's mechanics, and game design in general.

>>359742164
>>359742527
>>359743137
>>359743457
>>359743889
Do you people seriously expect anyone to read all that autism?

>>359743137
>Utilizing a sheer amount of talent to perform something that is otherwise useless
What "sheer amount of talent"? It doesn't take very long to get a handle on the controls they are intuitive you can get them done in a couple of acts. And again how is landing with precision a "parlor trick" in a platforming game? A genre about landing with precision on things.

>Unless you're including areas where you have to break a wall to pass through, shortcuts are actually pretty rare in Sonic
Again shortcuts aren't rare, you can use ramps and bounces to skip parts of many zones if your going fast enough

>Toodles
Why is it that whenever a person says they have "realized that Sonic was never really good to begin with", they turn out to be pretentious asses?

>>359744049
Yes, I have faith in not everyone on /v/ being a 12 year old boy browsing from school.

>>359744542
Do you even realize how annoying it is to read on mobile? Keep it short.

>>359743889
>The guy that responded to you is absolutely right. Mechanical depth is not dependent on it being a requisite for survival or game completion.
What?

>>359743457
>You are attempting to sidestep the point momentum management is key to optimizing your pace when playing through the levels, it's a fact.
I'm not sidestepping anything. I even mentioned the strategy of the glitchless runs in the early levels which was to hop on as many enemies as possible and sail over the goal. Also, the statement "momentum management is key to optimizing your pace when playing through the levels, it's a fact." is factually incorrect considering half of the levels I mentioned in earlier arguments above, such as the Casino Nights and Labyrinth Zone, actively stop any usage of momentum.
>Wasn't your original argument
My original argument was Shovel Knight have far superior depth to its mechanics than Sonic. This argument is a spin off of the original one, talking about why Sonic doesn't work and that its physics engine doesn't actually have that much depth, and how the game actively gets in the way of applying what little there is there.
Also:
>The depth only showing up on repeated playthroughs after the players do some trial and error memorization is completely irrelevant and pretty much expected.
So when I plug in a game like Mario and Megaman, and I come across a difficult stage, often times I can get through it on my first attempt because I've had practice not only on the early levels of the game, but because I've had experience with earlier Mario and Megaman games.

Are you trying to state that one cannot get good at sonic unless they play through the game multiple times? Are you trying to defend this statement? Please help me understand.

>There are constantly situations where it's used though

Again, the platforming from Sonic comes from slow, concise jumps and navigation of obstacles. The speed sections are devoid of any merit, and require very, VERY little use of any momentum, if any at all.

>>359744613
Anything that annoys phoneposters is good in my book

>>359744613
No one gives a fuck

>>359744613
Then stick to Twitter and stay away from this Turkmeni shepherds' forum, you casual.

>>359744662
In other words, the depth of a game's mechanics are not based on whether or not they're required to beat it. The goal of a game does not have to use all of the mechanics available in order to be deep.

I know people have already said these but games like CSGO are the worst offenders. The community is pure cancer anyway and can't accept the fact that their favorite game isn't a masterpiece praise gaben XDDD. It's unbalanced as shit, some guns are clearly miles better than others, there's practically nothing to stop cheaters, and people always accuse you of wallhacking just because you get headshots occasionally. It's a fucking mess, and it's not fun, especially not competitive. But of course all these claims will be dismissed by "lol scrub, u just suck, git gud like me and my tier 9000 medal or whatever"

>>359741818

cunts get fucking INTENSE arguing about W1

>>359744613

Over time it seems many people have forgotten the most important ingredient to a good gaming experience: The good game.

And by game I'm not referring to shader effects, high polygon counts, compelling story, or any of the other irrelevant nonsense I don't give a submarining fuck about. I mean the actual gameplay. The part where you control stuff and have it interact with other stuff and then your brain generates fun.
If I wanted a compelling story I'd read a book. There's only a few million of them already in existence, majority of which were written by people whose talents compare to the best video game writers, the same way Kobe Bryant's penis might compare to that of a poorly endowed tit mouse.
If enduring 90 minutes of CGI cutscenes dubbed with pornography-grade voice acting sounds exciting to you, I suggest you immediately open up your web browser, browse on over to your friendly neighborhood torrent site, and start downloading something called a MOVIE. Any of them really, because apparently you're very easily satisfied.
Perhaps I'm romanticizing the past here, but I remember a time when most games were about being challenged to explore new gameplay mechanics, about learning and solving new puzzles, about improving your skills against all types of adversaries and about feeling proud of your accomplishments.
Now they're mostly shiny particle effected vessels guiding any soccer mom caliber gamer through a generic 3rd grade level story where anyone with a brain the size of a steroid shrunk testicle can pretend to be a hero and maintain a fantasy of NOT SUCKING BALLS AT VIDEO GAMES.

>B-but I need a reason for what I'm doing, motivation for my character, a back story!

Would you really need a backstory to play Donkey Kong, you twat? How about football? Or Poker? If the process of playing a game isn't fun for you, then maybe you should find a different hobby.

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>it's hard if you ignore this long lists of things that makes it easy

>>359743889
>>359743889
>Mechanical depth is not dependent on it being a requisite for survival or game completion.
Sonic has no mechanical depth. You're over inflating a physics engine. Also, a game can't be said to have true depth until you utilize it in the game design as opposed to the game feel.

>The fact that slopes exist at all is proof that momentum is incorporated into the gameplay.
No, it's a proof that it's incorporated into the gamefeel. Momentum is apart of the game, this is a fact based on the physics engine, but to say it's part of the game design or utilized in gameplay beyond navigating loop-de-loops, especially when sonic builds so much speed so quickly and has access to a spin dash is absolute lunacy. Also, pretending that score is important in a 2d platformer shows that you're grasping for straws to overstate the importance of what little you have. And sonic does NOT have a high skill ceiling for a platformer in the slightest.
>Second, you've already contradicted yourself. You said the game is designed to play like an ordinary platformer[...]
I fail to see how I've contradicted myself. Sonic is a platformer. That's a fact. And the speeds that sonic runs at makes reaction to enemies on sight absolutely impossible. Which is counter-intuitive to Sonic's gimmick.

>Third, yes, this does mean the game has depth. Again, the mechanics are not required to clear the game's goal. The depth is still there. Sonic can still be played at a higher level.
If I can beat a game by mashing buttons, then it doesn't matter if there's a combo system. If I can beat a game by holding right, and then jumping when I'm forced to stop, then the physics engine doesn't matter, it's worthless. A system can't be considered to have depth unless you're forced to use it, and even then, your depth at "high levels of play" consists of doing a single task, which is not what anyone would consider deep.

>One button action =/= shallow mechanics
It literally does.

>>359734284
Witchercucks by far.

>>359744668
>I even mentioned the strategy of the glitchless runs in the early levels which was to hop on as many enemies as possible and sail over the goal
Which requires momentum management. Also both of those levels have plenty of momentum management, what are you talking about? The only thing that's lacking is speed.
>My original argument was Shovel Knight have far superior depth to its mechanics than Sonic.
Well that's just plain wrong. Sonic's movement has all the depth of Shovel Knight's movement and more thanks to more complex physics. Don't really see how you can argue otherwise unless you bring in things unrelated to the movement mechanics themselves like mechanics introduced in the levels, enemy/boss design and the completely optional items.
>Are you trying to state that one cannot get good at sonic unless they play through the game multiple times?
Yes, of course. Are you claiming there's a game which you can get good at without playing it beforehand? That's absolute nonsense, the only way you could justify that statement is if you lowered the standards of "good" to awkwardly stumbling through a game which possible in Sonic too without any prior knowledge of the levels.

>>359745042
FUCK this.

My friend, my BEST FRIEND, ACTUALLY tricked me into buying Yoshi's Story because of that. FUCK him.

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>>359744668
You can be good at Sonic on a first try. You can be much better at it on repeated tries. What kind of stupid ass argument are you trying to make?

You have no idea how Sonic works, at all. Just stop.
Games like Super Mario Bros and Shovel Knight are very fine tuned games. Every movement counts. Sonic plays it more loose. It has to expect more possible scenarios of speed.
But the reason Sonic is like this, is because it is, on a fundamental level, mechanically much more complex than Super Mario Bros or other traditional platformers like Shovel Knight. Sonic accounts for the ability to build and lose momentum on slopes, the ability to run on walls and ceilings, jump height and trajectory affected by surface angles, this kind of physics engine is far more complex than other platformers and it allows far more potential in movement, especially since it doesn't have any caps on movement speed or jump height or jump distance. That one button action is actually very powerful because it's always working in context with Sonic's movement and the surfaces he's on.

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>>359745042
Or:
>Yeah but if you ignore all those bad things you just listed, the game is good!

>>359745389
>Also, a game can't be said to have true depth until you utilize it in the game design as opposed to the game feel.
Sonic's physics are not about game feel at all, they directly affect your movement. You know, your primary means of interaction with the game world. What the fuck are you talking about, this is absolute nonsense.

>>359745574
>Also both of those levels have plenty of momentum management,
Momentum is holding the same speed or higher over a long distance of time. Walking from a stand still to a jump to clear an obstacle is not "momentum management".
>Sonic's movement has all the depth of Shovel Knight's movement and more thanks to more complex physics.
Sonic lacks anything other than a jump, and cannot even bounce on all enemies. Not that the game is designed around the difficulties that would result from that. Again, "complex physics" is VASTLY overstating things.
>Are you claiming there's a game which you can get good at without playing it beforehand? That's absolute nonsense
I literally stated two of them. Megaman gets easier the more you play and you can take on brand new games with just past experience. Even then, there are games out there that adequately prepare you for later challenges. Like Shovel Knight. Go back to the drawing board with that one.

>>359745389
Momentum is definitely part of the game design. Hell, in sonic CD is a prerequisite for time travel.

You sound dumb

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>>359744613
>dumb down your posts so idiots can understand them
You weren't going to reply to me with anything worthwhile anyway

>>359734284
why is oberstein such a cunt?

>>359746075
>muh machiavellianism

>>359741710
H1Z1 is made by the Planetside 2 studio.

>>359745720
>You can be good at Sonic on a first try
That argument is one of sarcasm, pointing out the flawed reasoning behind "it's to be expected that repeated attempts at the game are what make you good".

>You have no idea how Sonic works, at all. Just stop.
I have a far superior understanding of the games in general than you do, it seems.
>mechanically much more complex
Enough. This argument is tired. Super Mario fucking 1 has a more in-depth physics engine involved than the entirety of the Genisis Sonic Line-up. Shovel Knight's movement is more in depth with the weapon and pogo mechanics involved along with the item usage, and even Super Mario World and Bros 3's flight mechanics ALONE are more complex than the entirety of Sonic as whole put together.

>>359745815
They affect your movement so little that Sonic goes from 0 to Top in very, very short distances. Anything that builds his speed up from there quickly comes to an end at the end of the speed section. Maintaining that speed over long distances of time is not involved in the game whatsoever.

>>359746053
Momentum is part of the game, but it is not part of the game design.

>>359745746
a game can be good/great even if it has glaring flaws.

a game is truly bad if it has glaring flaws on top of having nothing to make up for it.

>>359739430
/thread

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>>359745389
You are the definition of those faggots who tries to sound smart but doesn't actually understand dick.
>No, it's a proof that it's incorporated into the gamefeel.
Do you hear yourself? Do you hear this pretentious hipster wannabe game dev garbage you're spewing? A physics engine that renders physical movement for the player character is not "gamefeel". That's the actual gameplay. Game feel* applies to how well a game feels to play in terms of subtleties like joystick responsiveness or aesthetic touches like screen shakes to give impact; in other words, the nuances that enhance player feedback, not the core mechanics themselves. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about and you're proving it more with every post.

>I fail to see how I've contradicted myself.
Because you said you cannot see oncoming obstacles, even though you also said Sonic is designed like an ordinary platformer, implying you can. The speed of movement does not change what is visible on screen at a given moment, meaning it's technically reaction time.
>And the speeds that sonic runs at makes reaction to enemies on sight absolutely impossible.
This is a false statement and you cannot pin your argument on it. At the most, it is nothing more than your own subjective view. And it sounds like you're just slow.

>A system can't be considered to have depth unless you're forced to use it
Still false. Bringing up Super Mario 64 again, you can clear the entire game using only a fraction of Mario's moveset. Even if you're going for all the stars, it is still possible to drastically improve the means of clearing the stars. Glitchless speedruns show this. The game has a far higher skill ceiling than what is required. It is as deep as you are able to push it.

>It literally does.
It literally doesn't. The effect of a single action is entirely dependent on the rules of the game and the context in which it is applied, which can be simple or endlessly complex depending on the gameplay.

>>359745909
>Walking from a stand still to a jump to clear an obstacle is not "momentum management"
Which is not what you do during a significant chunk of those levels, do you need a video or something?
>Sonic lacks anything other than a jump, and cannot even bounce on all enemies
Shovel Knight can't bounce on all enemies either for example those fire slimes, and yeah Sonic doesn't have the items Shovel Knight does but we're talking about the movement itself.
>I literally stated two of them
No you did not, you stated games that get EASIER, which is true for demonstrably true for Sonic as well, not games which you can be good at on your first playthrough. Get some decent standards for what being good means. Also you seem to be unable to grasp the fact that overcoming obstacles is the bare minimum when it comes to Sonic because its relatively complex mechanics allow you to optimize well beyond that.

>>359746512
Youre just a dumb fucking kid my dude

>>359741189
>Chemical Plant Zone is 70% speed sections
Confirmed for never having played the game.

>>359734284
Titanfall.
>lol you didn't go le fast XD

>>359743137
>Oh look. You're boring me again. And you were doing so well. I think this time really will be my last (you) for you.
>Toodles.
I was going to write a long and detailed explanation of why you're absolutely wrong, but then I read this and decided you're just trolling for (You)s. So here's a free one on me.

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>>359746512
>I have a far superior understanding of the games in general than you do, it seems.
No you don't. I have programmed games myself. I have worked with programmers who have recreated both Super Mario Bros and Sonic gameplay to a T. I have studied the mechanics of these games and many others for years on top of game design in general. You don't know shit. You are pretending to know shit, but you don't, and others here are seeing right through you just as I am.

>Enough. This argument is tired. Super Mario fucking 1 has a more in-depth physics engine involved than the entirety of the Genisis Sonic Line-up.
This is literally, objectively false. Yes, objectively. In terms of the math and code required to recreate the gameplay of those games, as well as the measurable potentials in gameplay that they offer, Sonic is much more. Just, stop.

>>359735296
how do you have any fucking trouble navigating piss easy 4x UIs like god damn maybe you are just bad or dumb you faggot, did you ever think of that?

The only game where I could see this being a remote problem is fucking Aurora and that doubles as GS