RTS genre death

>>356516574
RTS died due to elitism and lack of interest of newer generations. It's always been a niche genre.

Right now they're in a lull because quite frankly it's really hard to make an RTS that's not an unbalanced mess. They're also in that cadre of games along with fighting games that are almost solely 1 vs 1 in focus which isn't what's in vogue at the moment.
They'll come back around eventually, like fighting games did a few years ago after their big lull in favour of first person shooters.

>>356516574
Starcraft killed the genre with fast paced 5 second battles that require an overt amount of time to get even slightly good at

Slow paced, big base and huge defensive structure building was the best, it's dead though

>>356516574
The guys that made the Kingdom Rush series are making an RTS

>>356516574
>It's always been a niche genre.
Please, that is blatantly false and you know it.

Maybe in Clapistan it was niche (because Americans hate anything requiring even a miniscule amount of practice or research) but every single other country with gamers had RTSes being one of the most played for over a decade. From mainline games like Brood War, WC3, AoE 2, etc. to lesser known titles like C&C, RTSes were fucking huge everywhere. At no point between the 90s and like 2005 could you call them niche without a mob of people calling you out on your bullshit.

It's just that after the heyday came and went, and the RTS genre came down from its seat up top, nobody could make a good/fun RTS anymore to keep the momentum and shit like Blizzard fucking SC2 in the ass in various ways just killed most interest in it.

Also I blame a lot of it on the shift of the gaming industry moving the RTS fans and potential new RTS fans to WoW and MOBAshits. Now nobody wants to put in the effort to control more than one character. I don't blame them, I personally have a hard time going back to old RTS games even for nostalgia.

Unless a new RTS game comes out that's fun to play and doesn't have shit for balance and mechanics, it's not going to come back for a long while.

Whoops meant to quote >>356516832 and not OP in >>356517706

- Didn't work well on consoles, which led the industry or at least was a large chunk of it.

- Niche audience and demographic change (majority of early gamers played it, newer generations of gamers did not, so consumer base gradually got smaller and smaller).

- Formula revolution attempt not only failed but backfired, failing to appeal to a larger audience and pissing off core fan base: This was the RTT attempt back in ~2004-2008

- Benchmark difficulty when making the game, meaning small developers had trouble programming it. Unit pathing, AI, it's fairly difficult.

- Death of RTS companies, including Westwood, and Blizzard's occupation with its MMO, meaning significantly less focus in the industry on the genre

Most of these are connected to each other, sparked each other, and intensified each other. I'd say near-PC exclusiveness was the biggest cause that started the tumble.

We need rts titles that are pandering to casuals easy mechanics rng elements ruber band mechanics , i know it sounds bad but games need. Overcrowded casuals monies

>>356516574
Blizzard has the genre completely locked down. Only a handful of people will try something new and then go back to whatever has the biggest population, Starcraft or Warcraft

Unless a really good command and conquer releases, which it won't, there is no chance for change

>>356518342
you just gave me cancer

>>356516574
Stupid competitive garbage on a genre that should have been about the battles and tactics.

The only way I see it ever being saved is removing base building all together and focusing on huge battles and properly balancing around something like the battles experienced in total war games.

Maybe even a points system and continued balancing patches as the game matures especially if it decides to have multiplayer.

Competitive RTS might as well be one of those dance arcade games or clickfest music games since that is the braindead skill it encourages.

>>356517130
Total war.

>>356518342
You're hired!
>>356518671
You're fired!

>>356516574
>Do you think we will ever see a resurgence or even a revival in this genre
Ratio-wise less people play RTS than back then but number wise it's as alive as ever. It's easy to not notice how many games we got in just last 5 years

>>356516574
Im watching some sc2 reruns right now out of curiosity and as a former wc3 player I'm offended at how shit the actual gameplay is

both pro players are just marching a big blob of units around and then hitting with raiders at random points. Thats 99% of what SC2 has become
when the big deathballs collide with each other, the fight lasts 2 seconds and theres zero micro involved. The player with more/better units tries to kill objectives while the player with less/worse units refuses to ever engage and just runs around because if he ever fought head on he'd lose no matter how skilled he is because its just a matter of numbers. Finally he gets ground down and suicides into the enemy army and says GG, no dynamics at all

in wc3, you'd have fights that last 2-5 minutes straight of units trading hits as more reinforcements arrive, you're constantly dancing units in and out of the front line and healing them and trying to spread out the enemy's focused damage. A 50 food army could beat a 100 food army if you were twice as skilled at micro and leveled up your hero

sc2 is just so unskilled and microless. You just do some memorized macro build and perfect the build order and okay its rock paper scissors thats it, just move attack big blob of units

>>356518845
Nice pasta, (you).

>>356518778
>Dawn of War Retribution
>Heart of the Swarm & Legacy of the Void
>Planetary Annihilation & PA Titans
>Men of War: Assault Squad 2
>Grey Goo
>Act of Aggression
>Ashes of the Singularity
>Total War: Warhammer (if you count it=
>Wargame: Red Dragon
>8-bit Armies & Horde

They're not all stellar or huge but at least there's effort.

RTS are too fucking hard to make and they don't pay back. Look at Battlefield, its the same game every fucking year but with a different theme and slightly improved graphics, but it makes millions.

>>356519101
And CoH2 + expansion

>>356518845
I wouldn't say that SC2 involves zero micro, but compared to WC3, it’s the equivalent of continually banging rocks against each other until one of them is ground to dust.

That's why I personally prefer watching high level broodwar. It's just so crude and barely functional, that even getting your units into the fight takes a ton of micro.

>>356518845
early starcraft 2 problem's are with the maps
The players bases are all easy to close off and really easy to defend which made agression really difficult and generally not worth it so besides a couple of cheese (who'd make you lose the game if the other player anticipate it) most player would play defensively
They changed that in the expansions by making reapers more available and adding adepts

>>356519204
SC2 has less micro than mobas
thats really saying something

theres some micro going on in the first couple minutes of raiding and one or two drops, then its purely a macro affair from thereon out. Casters had to invent terms like "concave" to try to describe two deathballs mindlessly attack moving into each other as if the players were doing something skillful.

Its telling that SC2 didn't embrace the streamlined resource management of WC3 and emphasis on interactive map control, but instead put it arbitrary buttons you had to click every N seconds like spawn larva and inanimate piles of rocks to block expansions

>>356517706
>that is blatantly false and you know it.
It IS niche. RTS only gets 1-3 games a year, and they all go under the radar due to lack of marketing and of a sizeable consumer base.

>lesser known titles like C&C
C&C is the most well-known RTS. Westwood pioneered the genre with Dune, then popularized it with C&C. Even John Cena said he played it.

>RTSes were fucking huge everywhere. At no point between the 90s and like 2005 could you call them niche without a mob of people calling you out on your bullshit.

They were never above or on par with other genres, apart from Starcraft. They were extremely popular back then but their ever dwindling playerbase showed that it was not meant to stick around for too long.

>>356519358
SC2 doesn't even really know what it wants to be. Does it want to be a macro-oriented RTS like SupCom or a micro-oriented one like WC3 or CoH?

On the one hand, macro>micro pretty much all the time, yet at the same time, that macroing isn't very enjoyable. When I'm playing SupCom, I'm constantly fighting for mapcontrol, expanding my intelligence network and trying to balance upgrading my mexes with upgrading my factories and unit production. The game actively supports me in that regard and tries to make me as comfortable as possible.

Meanwhile SC2 macro is just an annoying activity, that relies on repeatedly activating the same pointless abilities (Chrono-boost/MULE/spawn larvae).

>>356516574
>I would love to see a big budget RTS with a great cinematic story preferably in a sci fi setting.
sounds like SC2 minus the great part

>>356516832
>It's always been a niche genre.
confirmed for not being alive during the 90s
It basically invented mainstream dad gaming

>>356519894
WC3 did macro better anyway
SC2 tried to copy the SC1 resource and map system but they were garbage, SC1 was about micro in fights. Nobody liked the shitty interface of having to jump through hoops to produce anything
wc3 replaced resource gathering with creeping, added new resources like experience, items, and map control with buildings that did stuff

>>356516574
>>356517130
I feel the growing gamerpopulation, focus on multiplay, and the resulting 'need' for guides/buildorder tactics just ruined the fun for me and the younger generation. I never got into starcraft for these reasons, Although i consider rts my favorite genre.
I dont know whats needed for a revival but i hope it's gonna happen

>>356518845
>in wc3, you'd have fights that last 2-5 minutes straight of units trading hits
this is the worst thing about wc3
every unit takes 5 minutes to kill each other they're so tanky and weak

>>356516574

SC2 killed it by being bad. It kept new people out and only appealed to the pros. Plus, modern games can't handle RTS.

homeworld 3 ploxerino

>>356520110
but thats precisely what made micro matter so much

>>356520324
go play C&C generals where everything dies in a fucking instant, it's same shit except actually fun

To much focus on apm. Most people give up without even trying because of it.

>>356516574
RTS would be saved with a simple gimmick.

Let casual players play with you in multiplayer and singleplayer campaigns by controlling a single unit, hero or normal. Even against both sides.

I think it would be pretty fun. Just imagine controlling a single company of legionaries you've decked out through multiple campaigns in a huge battle raging all over the map.

RTS died because companies wanted to simplify the genre and get more people involved.

Hence why we have shit like League of Legends as the most played game for whatever fucking reason.

I actually have fun playing Heroes of the Storm but the engine is fucking horrid and my friend's brand new computer can't even run it without massive FPS drops.

I remember spending so much time on Starcraft 1 UMS maps and making them. Golems was the shit. Or Evolvez. I loved collecting so many units that the map lagged out.

>>356516574

OpenRA feels pretty fresh after all the "modern" RTS games. The graphics are crispy and the game has bunch of quality of life improvements.

>>356520549
Funnily enough, that's why 10v10 battles are so popular in the Wargame series. Everyone gets a little part of the frontline, and you fight in it with your "deck" of units that you built before the game.

It's huge, it's loud, there is usually very little elaborate strategy involved (unless you get 10 people on one voicechat), but it's lighthearted fun. 1v1 is just full of tryhards anyway.

>>356520775
last time I tried to play openRA my basic infantry units had a sight range half the size of their actual firing range
so they would walk around revealing 1 tile of fog while firing at offscreen units

Every time I think about RTS, I still get triggered at what EA did to C&C. Aside from everything else that EA does, I will never forgive them for ruining this series then closing it. The game was so fun up to Generals.

>>356520820
Shit, I have to reinstall Wargame then. I only played like three games with it. Although I bet AirLand is void of players by now.

>>356516574
RTS games have (relatively) recently had the problem of their primary demographics being taken by other genres and their expansion. RTS games have what may be called a problem of trying to simultaneously appeal to two very different demographics that have had increasingly less overlap; the high-APM, skill-gamer demographic and the low-APM, strategy-gamer demographic. The former has lately been drawn more to the explosion in recent years for fighting games, MOBAs (especially with their highly profitable e-sport scenes), etc., and the latter has been drawn to the explosion in recent years for TBS, Grand Strategy, true-roguelikes, etc.

I enjoy RTS, but my manual dexterity/precision, APM, and other skill-associated capabilities have become increasingly worse as the years have passed; I can enjoy making decisions and strategy at the highest levels/difficulties of play without needing 150 APM and precise hands in a much more "pure" experience with the recent renaissance of non-realtime strategy games, and if I ever do feel an urge for something faster-paced, I can just play a match or two of a casual MOBA/dota-like with friends.

>>356520929
RA2 and Generals were the best C&C games and they were both made by EA

rts games are difficult. Gamers dont want to play difficult games

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Nostalgiafags ruined it
>B-But muh status Quo

You will NEVEREVER see a positively received RTS

>>356520989
Explain DS popularity.

>>356516574
if you are okey with playing super good players and stuff and are actually good and not just an attention whore who is just yelling "oooh i like rts games i am so cool but no one plays them" then you can play on iccup server which has quite the community, i am talking about broodwar just download mca64 google it and it will do the rest of the work, well have fun playing with gooks, i just hate people who can't even play sc2 effectively and cry how broodwar was so good and and stuff and talk about game on the technical level when they cant even beat gooks who just play instead on ranting,
and rts games are all about competition people will play games which have the most players and complaining about how a game destryed the genre because after release of a new rts everyone play it for a while and just go back to sc2 is just stupid, and sc2 is quite alive instead of crying just play that or play broodwar on iccup servers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HUGrYAsoY0

>>356521146
it's not difficult

>>356520940
yeah, you'll want to get the latest one, since that's where all the players are. Considering how niche the game itself is, it has a surprisingly stable playerbase.

>>356516574
RTS evolved. Only losers play 1v1s alone all the time.
MOBA takes more skill, reflexes and more importantly teamwork. The social aspect of playing with your friends alone makes it superior.

Running with Rifles is by far the best modern RTS.

>>356519358
>Casters had to invent terms like "concave" to try to describe two deathballs mindlessly attack moving into each other as if the players were doing something skillful.
Setting up a concave is an important tactic in SC2. It literally makes the difference between winning and losing a big fight. It allows all your units to get their initial shots off at once and snowballs into a big advantage. Not everything needs to be ridiculously micro intensive to be important

>>356521425
>The social aspect of playing with your friends alone makes it superior.
That vast majority of Moba players play solo queue. So that doesn't explain anything

>>356521756
Yeah that guy is seriously retarded. Splitting your amry to minimize splash damage is critical, and setting up a concave is the difference between winning and losing, especially in mirror matchups.
>>356521897
Yes mobabies just need to have their dunning kruger effect hit in full force, so solo queuing will always allow them to blame losses on their "retarded teammates wow i even had the hhighest gpm wtf" etc.

RTS games aren't intuitive at all, a person new to the genre who watches a game most likely won't be able to tell what's happening, a person who plays the game can lose without even realizing what she did wrong.

RTS are too demanding, it requires a grasp on general militar strategy which is esoteric for most people, on top of that it requires learning each specific game's mechanics and particularities, an average game will last half an hour and can easily go on for more than a hour, and all that time you must be engaging with the game both on a very high mechanical and intellectual skill level.

RTS are too unforgiving, make an small mistake and the enemy gains an advantadge that can not be reversed unless he commits a mistake as well, even worse the fact that you fell behind makes it more likely that he will be able to pressure you into worse mistakes and things just snowballs from there, contrast this with a fighter or shooter where your avatar is always capable of using the same abilities and doing the same amount of damage no matter how much hits you've taken, losing in an RTS is a unrelentless painfunl and humiliating experience, you get to watch from a vantage point as you are picked apart piece by piece with only the most minimal chance of a reversal.

Its just too much to ask from the average person who just wants a quick and fun 10 minutes match with friends.

One problem is that these kind of games aren't immediately fun when you pick them up. They require a substantial amount of practice and analyzing game mechanics before the game allows you to have fun. Like in sc2 i felt that i basically played the game against myself until at least platinum league.

I have never in my life tried a moba, is it the same with those games?

everyone in this thread is wrong

Mobas killed rts. The low skill level makes it easy to play and think that you're good at something. People don't want ot work to get better at anything, they just want everything to be handed to them. This is why you see so many autists on games like lol or dota2 complaining about their low rank. The pros who grew up on rts had to learn how to find and abuse advantages. That's the difference in rts you have to think or else you'll never win. In mobas you just play and blame everyone else because you're to stupid to think while you play.

>>356522394
in assfaggots you feel like you're playing against your teammates instead of your enemies.

>>356521189
this
you literally can't lose ds

>>356522782
you pray that you dont get retarded teammates

>>356516574
What killed RTS is the whole E sport shit it is going to kill a lot of shit cause now if its not e sport most company's and people do not care about it.

>>356521756
in wc3 you would constantly be shuffling units in and out of the front line of a fight. You select a footman, deactivate defend, run it away while using 2 other units to fill the gap it left so enemies can't chase it due to bodyblocks, then hit it with a holy bolt to heal it, then return it to the line. You had targeted heals like death coil, toggleable skills like druid form, you had survival tools to defocus enemy fire like hide, burrow, phase shift, etc.

The result was that individual player skill was a MASSIVE force multiplier, so even a small army could take on a much bigger army if you outplayed them. Add in heroes leveling up from experience and you had a stabilizer so getting surrounds on the enemy was far more important

All people do in SC2 is what, "divide your army so when you attack move into the enemy you hit from more sides". Then the armies die instantly, many fights over in literally 2-3 seconds, then sure, you snowball into a big advantage and theres no coming back.

SC2 was horribly designed, and SC2 took over the genre and killed it off.

>>356523209
I don't think so.
Developers aren't mathematicians, so there will probably never be an rts with a competent ai. This means multiplayer is the natural direction in that the genre can evolve. When people want to win in multiplayer you get "esport".

Warcraft III/DoW was probably the pinnacle era: Warcraft both invented the concept of modern Dota-style hero units but still allowed you to succeed if they weren't your cup of tea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69r5X3qJV3c

Total Annihilation will always be the singular best game.

I never even played SC1 properly, I just did custom retarded shit like Golems Madness, Cat and mouse. Evangelion and DBZ dogshit. The Moba genre couldn't come soon enough.

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>>356523765

>>356516832
Internet and "esports". Before you could just chill in StarCraft with your friends doing custom map 3v3s and everyone had fun no matter how terrible you or your friends were. Mistakes became sources of hilarity.

But thanks to YouTube and esports everyone, no matter how newb or casual (bronze sc2) is expected to watch YouTube strategies and practice relentlessly the "metagame" and strategies for their role/class/hero/race.

There is no longer a culture of "yo bro lets play some 3s fastest - yaaay!" but instead a culture of "Oh we do not play with Jimmy, his APM is only 50 and his didn't master the 4 required metagame builds"

tl;dr culture changed from fun to faggots

>>356523926
>Standard 4v4 end game

>>356523725
I don't know if you realize this but making an AI that wipes the floor with the human is easy as shit.

The hard part is preventing that from happening while keeping the AI not too dumb/borning to play against.
It is always set up so you can and should win even at the highest difficulty, that's why stuff like the "1vMAX num of opponents at the highest difficulty" stunts are possible.

>>356524068
once the bloodmage hits level 6 all bets are off
phoenix made every other ultimate look like a joke
stats of a flying infernal, but it had huge aoe splash damage, you could keep it alive indefinitely since it respawned and dealt aoe damage to everyone just by existing and did it in a huge aoe and lingered even if you left it, unlike immolation

>>356523991
Lol you must suck

Sc2 queue takes around 15 sec to find a game. Not dead yet.

>>356524101
Well i've implied that the same rules apply to both the ai and the player. Sure you can give infinite resources to a dumbfuck ai and that will make it hard, but an ai playing smart under the same rules is something that requires a lot of thinking to make.

>>356517706
>lesser known titles like C&C
top fucking kek
all the other games you mentioned in your post exist solely because of c&c series success

>>356524220
Phoenix can be focused down so easily though and it's almost never at full health. I love blood mage but I can think several more useful ults (in team games)

>>356516574
Meh, never liked them. I was much more into turn-based strategy games.

>>356520974

Generals was the last original work conducted primarily by the old C&C team, with the remnants working on C&C3: Twilight had nothing to do with Westwood or anyone that worked on the previous games at all, and was half-assedly retooled from a different game to wrap up the series because at that point EA didn't know how otherwise without any of the developers left. Though John Riccitiello was questionable in many ways, he loved C&C as a game series and not merely as a revenue enhancer, and when he left, all hell broke loose.

>>356525436
its a flying unit and it has huge max hp and spell immunity so its extremely hard to focus it down
ensnare and web maybe, but thats about your only option

>>356524957
As long as the AI can see the map, it has all the info it needs to whoop your sorry ass.
It only becomes a problem when you deny it that but every notable RTS released until today has not done so.

The AI is beatable because, just like with every other genre, the developers designed it to feign impotence... basically try and emulate a shitty player because that's what is most fun to play against.

>>356520820
Problem with that is you usually have 1-2 shitters that leave as soon as the game starts. At that point, one team steamrolls, or the Red team ends up losing because of the Red accuracy meme.

>>356521640
Its a twinstick shooter, my dude.

It is fucking fun though. The mods are great.

>>356520820
>>356520549

Wargame is better described as an RTT, that's why its actually good.

>>356516574
Why make an rts when a shooter will make you more dosh? It's as simple as that. Overwhelming majority of people don't like to think while doing stuff, playing vidya is not an exception

>>356520549
It's called MOBA.

>>356522394
>I have never in my life tried a moba, is it the same with those games?
given how 90% of the playerbase in both lol and dota are stuck in the lowest ranks, yes

people keep crying about muh bad team while there's people that keep reaching the top leagues solo over and over again on both games

mobas killed rts not because they are easier (they actually have much more going on than the average rts, yes even lol) but because they allow you to shift blame when you lose, in sc2 if you get btfo you only have yourself to blame, in dota/lol you are stuck with ther 4 people no matter what so you can always delude yourself it wasnt your fault, notice also how these games barely never offer any 1v1 modes

this is deliberate on the developer's part, especially in f2p games, if it's clear you're just too bad at the game you might just drop it and go elsewhere, mobas keep giving you the hope the next time will be better, it's just a matter of playing more, so you keep playing (and getting exposed to the in game shop)

Movieshitters are at fault.
>waah why do i have to press buttons in order to play a videogame?

>>356526742
>people keep crying about muh bad team while there's people that keep reaching the top leagues solo over and over again on both games

Not everyone has time to play 10 hours per day. or to play when all the kids are asleep.

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Let me make a point. I really want to see what you think about it:

The real issue with RTS games is that every decision stacks and influences your future success. If you fuck something up (build order since you want to try something new or are new to the game, or just lose an early battle), then every competent player is going to have an advantage over you. If you fuck up during the early game then you'll have a disadvantage throughout the whole game.

This is the macro issue that SC2 has. Every mistake or success stacks. (This also applies to 4X games like Civ, by the way.) If you're both playing to win and have about the same skill level, then you're probably going to lose, simply since the enemy has more resources than you.

Do we agree on this? How would you fix this issue? More micro? Somehow ensure that mistakes don't affect the rest of the game as heavily?

>>356523991
pretty much this desu

I'm sad that C&C ended up dying because that was the only type of RTS I could get into. Starcraft was just too hard for me to get into. I'm just a shitter when it comes to those kinds of games. If I had all the time in the world to practice, maybe I'd enjoy it more, but after I realized that no matter what I did, it'd take a while for me to take out an easy AI and a medium AI would already attack me before I could get my first marine out, I just plain gave up trying.

>>356526702

What if you had a MOBA where people where players were controlling the lane creeps, and lane creeps were given variety?

You know, something more like Footman frenzy.

>>356527394
Except mobas have the same shit and have a massive playerbase.

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>>356527394
>Do we agree on this? How would you fix this issue?
I wouldn't. Why would I want to reward a player for his mistakes or punish him for playing properly?

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>>356516574
>What happened
>mfw EA ruined bullfrog, westwood C&C and syndicate

after C&C got fucked up I got into Total war, I know it is not the same but both strat and RTS elements make it a really good series,

I just want a pre EA takeover C&C game again

>>356527394
I don't think it's purely because every fuck up can create a snowball effect because the same applies to MOBAs which are very popular (or to CS to a lesser extent) the real reason is it simply takes more time to learn and be good at strategy games than other genres.

>>356516574
Competition killed these games. They used to be something you played with friends, against random people. Now its the same as fighting games - a few autists memorize every single frame and ruin it for everyone else.

>Muh zerk rush within 4 seconds of starting the game.

>>356527735
>I just want a pre EA takeover C&C game again

Grey Goo was that, and look how it turned out.

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>OMFG THERE ARE ACTUALLY GOOD AND BAD CHOICES IN THE VIDEOGAME
>WHAT IS THIS, IN KATAWA SHOUJO AND GOME HOME THERE'S NO "GAME OVER" SCREEN

>>356527904
This. Muh esports was the final nail in the coffin. If you optimize the game towards a few gooks who don't even play for the enjoyment of it instead of the actual players having fun, how is that going to work?

>>356527724
>>356527840
Pretty good point tbqh, I just feel like it's an issue that's holding RTS games back, and is responsible for the build order stuff in SC2. You need to do everything a certain way or you won't stand a chance. I can't play it more casually, since every 'mistake' bites me in the ass, and I can't somehow transform my mistakes into something useful, if you get what I mean.

>>356527725
It's not like that. Shooters, for example, work differently. Once you're killed you enter the battlefield, but you don't get penalized. Or Dark Souls PvP. Even if you lose half of your health that doesn't cause a snowball effect, you're still otherwise on even terms.

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>>356527904
Zerg rush is trivial to counter.

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>>356528137
>You think you're having fun but you're not

>>356523765
SupCom:FA is the pinnacle.

What killed the RTS? No good games thats what. If someone releases a fun game it will be popular again. Simple as that.

>>356528158
>I can't somehow transform my mistakes into something useful, if you get what I mean.
Yes you can, you just are too bad to do it.

>>356526692
look at all the dosh battleborn made

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>actually expecting to get into a videogame without going through a 50 game long loss streak or about 1/20 K/D ratio
and /v/ thinks it's home to hardcore gamers....

>>356527970
>grey goo

fuck what a disappointment. It was slow as fuck for no reason and barely any diversity. A lot of the time there's simply nothing to do in it.

>RTS died because clapitstanis can't play skilled games
then why was WC3 so hugely successful when it required micro skills just like sc1, unlike sc2?

fact: RTS genre died because the only big game to come out was SC2, which flopped

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>>356528587
micro is toxic :-)

>>356527904
can't you like, not play against those people? There's literally nothing stopping you from just playing random shitters or friends, just don't expect to get high rank from not optimising your play.

>>356528615
>ameriburgerclapistansharts
>playing WC3

>>356528587
>grey goo
Was it really that bad? I wanted this game to be grey good, but I only heard bad stuff about it. I thought the factions are pretty diverse, at least?

I think its because most people hate 1v1 and dont like feeling the pressure. This isnt helped by the insane skill ceiling for competitive play.

MOBAs have taken off because teammates can carry you to a certain degree and relies more on team play (which is more enjoyable to learn and play).

Also if youre a casual who just wants to play an hour a day its less stressful.

>>356528709
Maybe it is but the game has next to no micro so it should make up for it by having more macro or anything else really. Most of the time you don't do shit in it.

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>>356528615
>then why was WC3 so hugely successful when it required micro skills just like sc1, unlike sc2?
Warcraft 3? You mean that client required to launch Defence of the Ancients?

>>356528615
>then why was WC3 so hugely successful when it required micro skills just like sc1, unlike sc2?

This was when games weren't for normals and autistic asians stuck to studying or playing arcade fighters in arcades.

>>356528786
The races are diverse but the t1 and t2 units within is just a bigger beefier version of the t1. Units have no abilities which is ok if the game had something else to keep your attention occupied but it doesn't, so it's just slow and boring. The only good thing about the game was the shortcut/ui stuff.

>>356528791
>(which is more enjoyable to learn and play).

Only if your team isn't full of cry babies or you have enough time to play the team lottery until you fight your way out of gold.

>>356528743
>>356528838
wc3 was very popular in burgerfat for its time
the first few years after release

then yes it became a dota platform and then yes nobody played sc2
but no game can live forever

>>356528710
>not optimising your play.
You're mistaken if you think these people play to play videogames. They actually just want to watch movies, and Big Bang Theory show said videogames are pretty much movies but more modern, right?

>>356528710
i havent played sc on bnet in like a decade but of course you dont have to play with certain people. it becomes common through the community though, or at least it was definitely a thing then. you could barely find new people to play with who didnt want to play it like a 5 minute game of chess. everything became rush rush rush and every button push and mouse movement matters much more suddenly. it sucks the fun out of it eventually for me, i wasn't looking to become korean over the game.

>>356528791
>I think its because most people hate 1v1 and dont like feeling the pressure

no shit, why do you think most casual babbies flock to whatever 5+ team game there is? You can't blame someone else in 1v1 other than yourself, in 5v5 you have 4 people to choose from.

>>356528995
but videos games ARE pretty much movies but more modern

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8R4odSkhM

>>356528938
>The only good thing about the game was the shortcut/ui stuff
Does it have anything that other RTS don't?

>>356529056
Don't make me repeat myself, rushes are trivial to deal with. The only reason to lose to them is refusal to adapt.

>>356528950

Well regardless, then you can externalize your failure onto others. Whereas in 1v1 rts games you have only yourself to blame.

>>356529151
no, you blame the developers lmao
>I lost to swarm hosts better blame david kim
>I lost to someone during beta doing a proxy reaper in a bunker literally faster than I could get out of a stalker if i rushed it, better uninstall this shit beta and never buy the game

>>356529056
Rushes are only effective if you don't scout it/prepare for it or you do some horrible misplay. Maybe starcraft/warcraft isn't for you if you want to slowly build your base and do whatever.

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Oh look this thread again.

Is there a more obnoxious fanbase than the RTS genre? I've never seen a group of people cry more and blame other games for their failure than the RTS fans.

>m-muh mobas killed the RTS genre!

>>356529134
the first time i mentioned zerg rush was just as something thats common. 2nd comments rush was aimed at how fast they want the game to be played, not the zerg tactic.

>>356523991
Yeah, this.

>>356529272
Name a fanbase that isn't obnoxious.

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When was the last time we had a really slow and comfy RTS?

>>356523316

You are retarded. The reason you don't think SC2 is as skill-based as WC3 is that battles are too fast for your stupid brain to follow. All the same things you are talking about from WC3 are there in SC2 and then some, and they are mandatory at high level play.

It's true that it's way too hard to get good at for newcomers though. WC3 was a casual game but the genre needs some of that.

>>356529112
I think the goo race is pretty unique (no buildings, can always be on the move) but handled shittily obviously, might be some RTS that does this already but idk.

>>356529272
Yeah, arena shooter fags
>muh halo/cod killed quake!

>>356528869
it was all the normies that allowed dota to prosper in war3 (remember dota was not an original idea, it was based on an sc map, but that one never took off). sc was the last rts before "normies" became a thing and that game was already dominated by asians. so you are wrong on every count

>>356516574
>death
>hasn't heard that SY beat Tyrants

Get cuckd

heres a better question

How do you reinvigorate the RTS genre?

>>356529370
There were no slow and comfy RTS games you just played against bots on easy.

>>356529612
This, I was always shit at RTS games so I just played vs bots on easy and played slowly.

>>356528938
>The only good thing about the game was the shortcut/ui stuff.

That was copied from Age of Empires Online, actually.

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>>356529594
Steer clear of this shit.

>>356529378
>le 80000 APM micro claim

no, you can literally watch sc2 pro games, there simply isn't a capacity to micro in fights that take 2 seconds to be decided. Its not merely "too much skill requirement to move 100 units individually in 0.02 seconds each", its the fact that even if you did, theres no reward for doing so, it doesn't give you any advantage.

WC3 was a skilled game won by micro because every unit had time to run away if you moved it individually, spot heals and bodyblocks and surrounds changed the pace of battles

When it takes 2 volleys to kill an entire army, your units don't get time to run away individually, and if they aren't firing, they're useless

>>356516574
>I would love to see a big budget RTS with a great cinematic story
Stopped reading right there.

>>356529272
>a more obnoxious fanbase than the RTS genre
Every fanbase ever. RTS players are usually more aged and mature. If you don't count SC2, that is.

When people played RTS as a kid they played against fucktarded AI and just massed high tier units and didn't realize how dumb it was.

When SC2 came out, people learned what the fuck a build order was and what real RTS looked like. All RTS before that was the same but now people realized they didn't actually like RTS on a higher level than massing strong units and amoving.

So RTS fizzled out, and only Blizzard could even hope to revive it with WC4 or something.

>>356529594
You can't, you just deal with it dying. That's the order of things, simplier stuff for the masses takes over.
Fastfood replacing home cooking, tv replacing books, and now, mobas replacing rts.

>>356529757
you literally dont watch sc2 do you? i mean sure maybe if your pure bio army eats a bunch of storms at once it lasts 2 seconds but 99% of battles aren't that.

>>356529969
lmao this guy

every fucking time

can we just talk about RTS games or not, rather than having this depressing shitfest? none of the games you supposedly like have gone anywhere, you can still play them

Is Company of Heroes an RTS?

Would that be a better direction to take the genre?

>>356523926
fuck i hate towers now xD

>>356530019
sc2 fights are a tiny fraction of the length of wc3 fights
>b-b-but only storm and colossi fights or banelings or disruptors or ravagers or zerling surrounds are over in 2 seconds!!!
>other fights take as much as 5-10 seconds!!! :-DDD
okay

>>356529841
>RTS players are usually more aged and mature.
Normies might be aged, but they're not mature in any way beyond reproductive.

>>356530208
guard towers were a mistake
how could blizzard not release that the cheapest and most cost effective high dps tower that attacks everything is given damage/armor types that make siege units extremely ineffective against it

if they had made them fortified and then lowered their HP dramatically so they were the same tankiness to normal units and folded like cream cheese to catapults, then maybe it wouldn't be so obnoxious

instead it took like a dozen catapult hits to kill 1 guard tower

Could we just play(or at least just talk about) RTS games we like, instead of crying over RTS games(and other non-RTS games) we don't like?

>>356529889
>Playing SC
>You base have literally Zero defenses unless you.
>Because of this the Meta consist on purely trying to Zerg your opponent or cheese him really fast unless unless he builds counters.
>Because of this the game is now more of a "Build shit in this order" simulator than a real RTZ.
Would Starcraft be a better game if you base actually had some defenses at the start so you could prevent bullshit like this?

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>>356527490
>>356529293
So much this!

>>356528869
>autistic asians stuck to studying
Funny back the most of the people who gave me the boot were autistic asians or burly russian men.

>>356530445
I like Total War Shogun2 and I think I might try Attila.

>>356530445
Battle Realms 2 when

>>356530371
Good point, but
>normies
Wording aside, do they even play RTS? and moba garbage does not count as RTS, for the matter

>>356530150
Capture points/sectors are definitely a step forward because they force constant skirmishes and non-stop action. Old-style rtses could be nothing happening for the whole match before one battle that ends the game.

>>356530503
YES

>>356529451
>it was based on an sc map
>le aeon of strife is dotalike meme
Aeon of Strife fundamentally isn't like dota because THERE IS ONLY ONE SIDE WITH PLAYERS. It's much closer to Left 4 Dead than any dota.

>>356530371
bruh, get out of the basement.

>>356530223
and why are long fights better? just sounds fucking tedious. also there's lots of counterplay so those things you listed don't fuck your shit up

>>356530445
What is a good modern RTS? I haven't played one in forever. Loved games like Command and Conquer, Star Craft, Age of Empires 1/2.

>>356529969
RTS games are the fast-food genre, you idiot.

It's made to appeal to the casual ADHD ridden faggots who can't sit still for an hour to play a decent TBT game match like Jagged Alliance nor finish a map in HoMM or Civ.
They are the "MOBA" of the later 90s and early 2000s.
It's just as cancerous a genre as any other flavour of the month "let's push casualisation a bit further," effort.

>>356529378

WC3 had something for everyone, though. Want to double down on your micro? Go magic. Don't like having to fiddle with special abilities all the time and just want to focus on unit positioning? Go tech. Don't like heroes at all and wish you were playing WCII? Build tanks. You like towers? Go ahead, if you're good enough, you can use them for both defense and offense. You want to play orcs with a hero other than Blademaster as the opener? Well fuck you buddy, Orcs don't roll that way, but if you play the human faction where obviously 99% of the focus went to, you can pull off practically any strategy given enough forethought. Don't like the game at all? Play a TD or Dota; it's all supported on the engine.

Warcraft III had something for everyone, and that's why it was so successful.

>not offworld trading company

>>356530429
i remember the siege units had a higher range than the guard towers

>>356530662
because if fights are over faster than units can dance away then theres no point in individually moving units away from fights
longer fights meant every unit counts and every unit can be individually microed
sc2 speed fights mean you attack move your ball into the enemy ball and they disintegrate in 2 seconds

>>356530429
Use 3 catapults and burn it in 4 hits. Towers ain't even that good in vanilla. They're mostly a barricade that shoots back.

>>356527394
I dont see any problem with that however if the whole game comes down to whoever does shit faster then the game is shit

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>>356530765
>You want to play orcs with a hero other than Blademaster as the opener? Well fuck you buddy, Orcs don't roll that way,

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>>356530470
What's wrong with Our Boy RTZ?

seriously though, that post smells so much of a shitter
>Would Starcraft be a better game if you base actually had some defenses at the start so you could prevent bullshit like this
all this would benefit your scrub ass is delay your worthless simcity roleplaying by increasing the critical mass of offense.
also lol @ needing a turret to defend yourself because you know you wouldn't manage it yourself

>>356530701
depends what do you want

I like, SupCom, DoW 1-2 and Zero-K
also not really an RTS but MoW is great too

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>>356530729
>playing Civ with friends all night
>America nuked to hell and back
>entire Europe converted to Islam
>niggas still can't wipe my Babylon walls even with everything they have

>>356530796
>>356530878
its 10x easier to kill catapults than to kill the guard towers
when you slowly roll your molasses speed siege units into range, you're in range of the HU players flame strike, blizzard + flame strike
then you've got to worry about him hit and running with gryffons who kill your entire siege army in 1 shot

>>356530093
No one here gives a shit about RTS games they only are nostalgia fagging the days they played Warcraft 3 campaign on cheats then ditched it for Battlefield.

>>356530729
Yeah, not shit like Fifa, Need for speed or CS 1.6. No, rts was the casual genre.
Wow, and you are calling someone an idiot.
>mentioning HoMM or Civ as opposite
Okay, now it's obvious you're rusing. Every 12 year old kid in my class played those.

>>356530971
The fuck is the nigga talking about? Blademaster is a shit opener. Voodo woodoo and Furseer is the topkek.

>>356530586
Who is in this thread but normies complaining about being unable to simcity?

>>356530470
>Would Starcraft be a better game if you base actually had some defenses at the start so you could prevent bullshit like this?
No. The problem is the core of the game not being deep enough to make up for the void the simplification of the micro created

No matter what you do it will always end up the same

>>356530875
>theres no point in individually moving units away from fights
but there is in sc2. or at least moving groups away. maybe on a low level it's amove vs amove but as someone who was masters in sc2 every big fight requires micro. the only exception is when your army is in a shit position or a small group gets completely overwhelmed and then it's not worth the apm

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>>356530470
>>You base have literally Zero defenses unless you.
You? (You)?

>>356530486
>Le reddit amirite guzs
Nice shitpost

>>356531103
blizzfags are the worst as well. I might be ok with no more RTS games if it makes them mad

>>356531175
>moving entire deathball using group control
its like starcrumps don't even know what micro is

>>356530947
Being 'fast' is one of the most important skill elements of RTS games, together with memorization of counters and having an overview of the whole situation.

How would you change that, or make it less severe?

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>>356530503
>honeypot nation is in flames over the cosmetic change that is choosing their President

>>356531247
base defense in sc2 is basically nonexistent compared to every other RTS, even sc1 had stronger buildings, and its a complete joke next to wc3 where 600 gold in towers could fend off 3000 gold in units

>>356531065
>its 10x easier to kill catapults
Meat shields, tanks, ranged support, kiting, surprise buttstun. You can counter everything, its like you lost every match you played.

>>356530429

Giving towers different armor classes from fortified was in hindsight a questionable move, yes.

But damn if WC towers aren't the most satisfying tower in the world. They just felt right in a way no other game's do. It's a shame that the Orcs only got to build an inferior version of GTs.

>>356516574
When's the next brood war starleague?
Is Jaedong going to participate?

>>356526028
>AI can always see the map
Don't even remind me about those Tiberium missiles.

>>356531126
>simcity

>>356531487

Nothing beats spirit towers.

>Not using ghosts to attack your enemies.

>>356531395
600 gold buildings fending off 3000 gold units is a joke. that's way too cost efficient

static defense in starcraft is for holding off small counter attacks without having to overdedicate army units and for giving defenders advantage in big fights

>>356516574
every rts with micro management of over 10 units+base is bound to be autist-focused-no-lifers-paradise-"muh APM"-competitive-faggotry. Nobody wants that, except for the autists ofcourse, like this one here >>356518845

also dota happened, which gutted the large portion of autism in form of micromanagement and made RTS accessable, so these games finally started getting popularity

In our days RTS is only possible in form of some grand strategy, macro management focused games, you can see people argumenting against this with some obscure "grey goo aka brown goo"-tier shit, but they themselves know these shitty knockoffs are only reinforcing the fact that RTS is dead, and good riddance. I only liked single player campaigns anyway and nowadays nobody is gonna bother with single player focused rts because everybody is an e-sportsman now

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>>356531329
>real time game requires reflexes
what a fucking surprise stop the presses

And to top it all off, people in this thead aren't actually having problems with being unable to do these actions mechanically, they probably just let their buildpower idle for no fucking reason other than gazing outh agape at their SCVs run back and forth.

>>356531116
Every 12 year old played those but every 6 year old played Warcraft 3 and AoE 2 and Generals.

>>356531472
siege units in wc3 are extremely fragile, slow, vulnerable and expensive. They can do good glass cannon dps but are easily picked off
heroes can rip through enemy siege on their own

>>356531487
orc had raiders they didn't need strong towers
NE had bear dryads and chippo and didn't need any defense with their OP bullshit
UD was a shitcan race and had bad everything fine thats true
but HU was underpowered units and overpowered towers, so you had to cheese to win and exploit that advantage. Whether it was turtling, or timing pushes with ivory towers in the enemy base, or full blown tower rush, or building towers behind the treeline of the enemy gold mine and breaking through the trees once they're finished

>>356530729
everyone bow down to the guy that only plays 4X's because those are games for superior gamers, such as himself

>>356531665
sc2 base defense is so ineffective that it doesn't hold off small counter attacks. It can hold off maybe 200 minerals of melee units
but anyone can just warp in 8 zealots and attack them into the enemy workers and all the drones will be dead before the zealots do so even if they win the "fight", the economic damage is catastrophic

>>356531329
Make the game more deep, the one with acceptable apm and creativeness is the one who wins and not the faggot regurgitating whatever he memorized

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>>356531743
>how dare you press buttons in order to play a videogame
also reread the post if you can focus for more than two sentences normie, he's roasting starcraft 2

>>356530729
also 10/10 you got me

>>356531985
No Sebastian, 10 button presses per minute is not "acceptable APM".

>>356531985
So... you add more content and depth? And how does that prevent autists from memorizing all of that, too? Give me something specific.

>>356531985
>>356532110
>muh apm

and here I was thinking strategy games were about strategy

>>356532190
Tbqh I think this is the real issue. Many strategy games don't feel 'strategic', it just feels like memorization and being able to do it fast. You don't have enough time to think about 'strategy' anyway while playing.

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>>356532190
>why do you need to press buttons in order to play a videogame

Can you come up with an actual strategy? Sitting in your base until max population cap of highest tier units is not "strategy".

TIME IS A RESOURCE

>>356532369
sc1 was that way
wc3 rewarded you for being creative

>>356531983
>what are drone pulls
>what is splitting army

i said hold off attacks without having to overdedicate army. you still have to send army to deal with army, that's just a fact of sc2. sorry, you can't just plant down a cannon and be totally safe from harassment

>>356532369
>You don't have enough time to think about 'strategy' anyway while playing.
Speak for yourself.
>it just feels like memorization
Just because you're incapable of coming up with actual strategies on your own does not mean it's impossible, you're just shit at it.
Who the fuck came up with the strategies to memorize in the first place? Did they fall from the sky?

>>356532420
I can, yes

>NOT AN ACCEPTABLE APM

oh sorry blizzfag

Let's laugh at the Plott brothers

>>356524767
People here are more interested in bitching about it being dead than playing it.

>>356532420
>Play strategy game
>Spam 1234567 every game
>The one who presses 1234567 faster wins

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>>356532595
>I can, yes
Hit us with it, then. Prove me wrong, I can't fucking wait.
>>NOT AN ACCEPTABLE APM
who are you quoting

>>356532528
and thats a major difference between wc3 and sc2
in wc3 you laid down towers and were immune to harassment
in sc2 your base is always naturally immune to harassment if you block the ramp, then your other bases are so vulnerable the only thing players do all game is harass each other with drops/warpins/etc until the final fight that only lasts a couple seconds

wc3 was all about the armies fighting each other nonstop and it actually mattering.

>>356516574
And you killed it for not playing Starcraft 2.
Sure its not as good as the previous in some areas but its still great.

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>>356532747
Please stop with the butthurt strawmans, try to come up with a strategy. A STRATEGY, not your fantasy of being a cool general smoking pipe in his office while watching 99999999999 dudes shoot eachother.

>>356530223
>>356530875
>>356531285

Stop posting any time. Spreading your marines out into groups of 2 or 3 to minimize aoe damage is absolute basic level play that everyone does. You clearly haven't watched any good players and are judging purely from your own experience of not knowing how to play.

>>356532847
you could make the argument that worker harass in sc2 is too effective and you would have a legit argument, but totally removing it from the game by making op static defense is terrible and makes for a more static game.

and again you keep pushing this "fights only last a couple seconds" thing which just isn't true

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You can think of the "death" of the RTS genre as analogous to board gaming. Starcraft is essentially like chess. There are standardized openings, it is 1v1 and it takes a lot of practice to get good at.
But very few people actually want to sit down and play chess because as far as they are concerned it isn't worth it unless both people already play it a lot. You can't expect someone who's been playing chess for a month to beat someone that's been playing it for years, it just won't happen. Chess is very binary in this way. The better player will win because the better player knows more things and can process more things without missing details. A chess match that isn't a perfect matchup is, in essence, a waste of time.
Contrast that with easier board games like smash up, or smallworld, or settlers of catan or whatever. These games, with their random aspects and simpler mechanics, allow newbies to have a shot at winning. They are also, crucially, NOT 1v1 games. You can have fun as a group, free for all dynamics come into play, teams can arise. Politics/social interaction becomes a factor. That's more fun for most people because it isn't just based on how well you know every aspect of the game and how consistently you can play it well.

tl;dr RTS games are like Chess but no one actually prefers playing Chess to other board games.

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>hitler is cheater blitzkrieging f*g, ban he

>>356523991
this, i have to agree desu familia

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>>356523991

>>356532994
You do that. You are the one arguing the one who should win games is solely the one who is faster

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You are this heavy.

>>356516574
>What happened?
e-sports made everything 100% tryhard. it was way more fun before everyone knew exactly what to do

>>356533124
gee which sounds better:

>game where your armies are constantly fighting each other, jacking creeps and hit and run and picking off units and pressuring nonstop
OR
>game where your army spends 99% of the game just running in circles in one big ball without ever attacking anything because if it moves out of position the enemy will destroy your base in the blink of an eye, then when you finally clash with the enemy it lasts a couple seconds

>>356533174
>You can think of the "death" of the RTS genre as analogous to board gaming. Starcraft is essentially like chess. There are standardized openings, it is 1v1 and it takes a lot of practice to get good at.
SC would be like checkers

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>>356533174
This is actually a really fitting comparison, I think.

>>356533341
How so? If SC2 is checkers, what's chess?

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>>356533174
>The better player will win
END SKILL PRIVILIGE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
also i just realized i don't have pictures of tumblrina sjws on my hard drive saved
its something to be proud of i guess?? pretend i posted one to go with this post i dun care to google image it

>>356532847
The issue with WC3 the Blizz really didn't balance the factions in a matter that made such statements true.

Undead have horribly inefficient towers and static vulnerable workers so pro meta evolved into giving up making multis in most scenarios. Humans could continually harass by beelining siege tanks constantly into enemy bases.

People did a lot of creative shit true, but this seems to be mostly to circumvent the odd asymmetric faction philosophy

>>356533341
ok, great, you can be elitist about it but that isn't the point of my post. replace "starcraft" with whatever game you think requires dedicated practice and a high amount of skill to become "good" at. If checkers is hard for you then yes, sure why not.

>>356533493
the point is not that the better player will win. the point is that the better player will ALWAYS win. People don't like that, they want to have a chance at winning. that's why every board game made today has some random element in it.

>>356530729
Not that i disagree that RTS used to be what CodMW-clones were just a few years ago. But I would hardly call it casual. Real-time shit is tricky compared to turned based. Unless this is that autist's argument that action-gameplay=casual mode.

>>356533242
>You do that.
Do what, come up with a strategy? No, I don't want to trigger your baby head with actual build orders.
Stop strawmanning? I'm not strawmanning, you're actually this ridiculous.
>You are the one arguing the one who should win games is solely the one who is faster
Set up a bot that spams only ground attacking units while controlling them with 999999 APS (actions per second) and never adjusts while I limit myself to a budget of 3 clicks per minute to lift off my base to an island expansion and build one air unit that attacks ground.

The difference between you and me is that you don't want to play videogames, you just want to pretend to watch LotR trilogy.

>>356533540
WG:RD can take a decent amount of skill.

If you ignore helicopters

>>356533629
>People don't like that, they want to have a chance at winning.
Fuck these "people" then.

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>>356533629
I want an RTS that feels like Dark Souls. During PvP the better player won't always win unless there's a huge skill level difference. There are many different builds that affect how you play the game, but most of them are viable, and it helps to try something new. There's very little unfair RNG, and when you die you can usually tell exactly where you fucked up, and punishment happens instantly. Thinking ahead helps you.

I know that it's a dumb comparison.

fuck real time, where are the turn based games at

>>356533306
oh let me try to be biased as fuck too it sounds fun

which sounds better:

>a game where units just tediously clash where there's no decision making and units never die except to the one op moba hero which is all that actually matters so why fuck am i pretending im playing an rts

or

>a game that requires on-the-fly decision making and actual understanding of tactical maneuvers that isn't just KEEP HIT THE OTHER GUY LOL that gives you massive options of where to attack and how to attack, has quicker but meaningful battles and requires a combination of deep game knowledge, micro and multitasking.

>>356528089
katawa shoujo has bad endings

the funny thing is that in the crispy girls story you actually get punished if you make the right choices due to actually dealing with crazy people before, the only way to win is to make the dumbest choices possible

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>>356533951
At least you admit you dislike the genre.

>>356533829
>actual build orders

>Press 123456
>or 654321
>or 321456
>Every game
>This somehow takes skill
>O wait it does cause you do it really really fast
>This is somehow notable
>B-but muh korea

>Strawmaning with
>If you don't do 200 apm you do 10

You literally have no arguments and im sure you dont even play video games

>>356533945
Red Dragon, is fine for that.

Just please don't pay attention to the RNGods

>>356518671
>The only way I see it ever being saved is removing base building all together and focusing on huge battles and properly balancing around something like the battles experienced in total war games.

I had my hopes about Wargame. Then Eugen went turbo retard and focused on pandering to the tourneyfags. If they had at least given us a map and campaign editor, I wouldn't have given a shit about their throwing single player under the bus. This was pretty much the last franchise I wanted to see become a fucking wannabe e-sports. And right now the MP is dead either way, because all that's left are doomstackers sitting in game lobbies patiently for hours on end for easy pickings, which means the game will never attract people without military grade autism.

>>356533903
Which is why RTS is dying. If games have to be an Ivory tower where only absolutes persist then that is fine, but don't blame everyone else for not wanting to feel like a loser playing a game unless they practice hours on end.

>>356534053
I like turn based more. I don't dislike real time. turn based is more down to business, real time is more about doing shit I don't care about

>>356533951
Dom4

>>356533903
I'm just identifying the problem, or cause, as I see it. Personally, I think high skill games are fun because they offer the player the chance to genuinely grow and improve. That might appeal to you and me but that doesn't mean most people think that way.

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>>356517703
Got me exited

http://www.ironhidegames.com/post.php?id=112

>last post almost a year ago
>planned for mid 2016 release

>>356533489
>How so? If SC2 is checkers,
How so what? Theres very little strategy into it

SC1 used to come down to whoever used the units better but even when you use the units it comes down to specific engagements its not a "macro war" where the whole thing is constantly contested like in other RTSs

Its completely devoid of strategy

> what's chess?
AoE2

>>356533506
the races were basically balanced between HU v NE v Orc as long as the HU had cheese in its favor, thats more just a problem of UD being so trash

the other faces had asymmetrical advantages of some broken kind to balance out. Orcs had the ridiculous power of ensnare and blademaster, so they could pick off heroes. NE had superman who could right click through armies and a huge macro advantage, HU had cheese units and abilities like flying machines, tanks, invisibility, aerial shackles, and OP buildings, but their units were underpowered compared to the other races

anyone wants to play Retribution or Soulstorm with me?

>>356534097
Protip: RTS games require you to use a mouse as well. I know actually selecting and unselecting units triggers your mobaby ass (can you even select/unselect units in dota, even though there's no point to it? I have no idea), but mouse actually can be used for something that isn't lining up "skillshots" holy shit what a stupid name, it sounds like a title for an anime

>>356533996
>a game where units just tediously clash where there's no decision making and units never die except to the one op moba hero which is all that actually matters so why fuck am i pretending im playing an rts

so a game where you're clashing nonstop
even biased you make it sound fun
> has quicker but meaningful battles

nothing fun about watching deathballs explode in 2 seconds

>>356534497
I would but I got class bruh

>>356534140
>being THIS tearbuttsaltmad about losing
>losing in a 0 stakes videogae
Get a life, tryhard?

>>356534504
Why don't you go and play fighting games if pressing buttons repetitively is so important for you?

you literally have no clue of what you are talking about

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>>356534604
you're simply missing the point.

>>356534708
TRYHARD EXPOSED
ALL POINT AT HIM AND LAUGH

Can you get a girlfriend, please? Being a virgin in your 40s and making it up for yourself by taking videogames too seriously is not healthy I think.

>>356534662
This.

The influx of pro fighting game asians ruined RTS since they prefer press 1234567 faster than someone else.

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>>356534603
maybe next time then

>>356524282
point proven.

>>356534604
It's not about me it's about whether people in general are willing to play a game like that.

>>356534521
if meaningless units hitting each other forever sounds fun to you then by all means go for it. maybe you can do it while watching your favorite transformers movie.

meanwhile i'll be playing a game where deciding to take a fight actually matters and makes it actually important

>>356529737
>This is considered an athlete

>>356534662
Come up with a strategy to pressing 123456 really fast. I won't tell you.

>>356533228
That's an extreme over exaggeration. You still play within the boundaries of the rules, dipshit. You just don't have to be fucking perfect at every aspect to enjoy something. Who'd have thought such a thing could exist...?

>>356534961
>you is considered "normal"
>despite being a self-absorbed degenerate that is killing the west without even needing (((them))) to push you to it

>>356523991
But that's fucking retarded. They still have stupid meme maps. Nothing changed except most of the casual players left.

Don't blame the competitives for this.

RTS with helicopters, airships, and trains give me hard ons. Too bad there's not that many, and the ones with trains are either so old or suffers from "works on my machine :^)" syndrome

>>356519864
Er what? Command and conquer sold ten million plus copies. It was not just starcraft in the 90s. West wood was a big name.

>>356534919
so the game where fights literally consist of attack moving a ball of units into another ball of units is deep and tactical because you spent so much time running your ball of units around the map to reposition

while the game where you're nonstop microing units and dancing them around pulling them out of the line and bodyblocking and surrounding and flanking is boring because its "too much action"

>>356535040
>You still play within the boundaries of the rules
And he's playing within boundaries of the sheet of paper.

>>356534871
>>356534967
samefag

What do you even want to get out of these threads?

>>356533228
There's a pretty big difference between someone not being great at the game and nuking ally bases.

>>356534869
grow up

>>356535213
>samefags
>then accuses others of samefagging when they reply to his samefags
a shrewd tactic
if only you had as much APM playing RTSes as you had when you write shitposts on 4chan

>>356516574

Esports, The fact that RTS is difficult on consoles (although i played C&C Red Alert one on PS1 to hell and back, and then there was Halo Wars, KKND and a few others), and that modern generation of players are a bunch of inept retards, because they all want "dat cumpetitive seene" and suffer from ADHD.

>>356517706
>German friend of mine is like this.
>Gets extremely upset about the shit other people do.
>It doesn't matter that you're not even losing, but you're not winning the way he wants you to win.
>He blames you for a problem he's guilty of too without even realizing. And gets extremely irritable about it while you just let him slide on it expecting him to do the same.
At least he's not THAT GUY so you can talk to him and have him cut that shit out.

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>>356535664
>they're stupid adhd kids that want to improve themselves and spend a lot of time practicing

>>356535351
You are the shitposter

what do you want to get out of these threads?

>>356530638
and why would casuals turn this down? if dota players were honest with themselves, they'd admit that this was what they really wanted. a team so they could blame losses on other people, and a braindead opponent so that losses rarely happen in the first place. all that's really missing is a progression/ranking system to reinforce a sense of accomplishment for being absolutely mediocre

>>356535204
no a game where you have to choose when/where/how/why of taking a battle is more deep and tactical than "you fight always because that's the only option". you then have to micro on top of that

microing nonstop would indeed get boring when the pace of the battles is so slow and the maneuvers you do mean so little

>>356523991

Fastest was fucking horrible.

Every god damn time "3v3 fastst no rush 10 min".

>>356518671
>removing base building
remove the strategy part of the fucking game? Have you lost your fucking mind?

>>356535915
>game where you have to micro is boring
>game where you can't micro is exciting

>>356535852
A strategy from you.

>>356535981
>placing buildings is, per definition, strategy
dude fuck

>>356536098
Build orders, placement of buildings and expansion are strategy anon.

>>356536004
>can't micro

just because you keep saying it doesn't make it any more true. maybe if youre fucking silver league in sc2 micro isn't a factor but for actual players it's huge

>>356518671
CoH series heavily simplifies bases and drastically reduces the amount of units you have active at any given time, which reduces the APM requirement. Might be something for you.

But I'll remind you that bases play an important part in the scouting and bluffing minigame that for example SC has in the early game.

>>356536228
You can't pretend it's more than sc1 or wc3, though.

It's huge at the highest levels sure, but so is losing a single drone or being 8 seconds off your 4gate. Everything is huge.

But don't pretend it's more micro than sc1, or wc3.

>>356536037
What strategy
>Inb4 123456

>>356526537
>There aren't RTS games without heavy micro.
It's like people didn't play Supreme Commander FA.
>Blueprints you can save to do build orders faster for you than you would.
>Less focus on spamming abilities and more on logistics, army type/size.

Dawn of War was a clunky but fun game, especially with apocalypse mod, that my group still plays all the time because it's 40k and fun base mechanics despite it's problem and it only have one race that is micro heavy. One of my favorite races too. Instead every new RTS tries to copy starcraft's popularity and make itself a new e-sport with no options expect micro.

>>356536332
Have you even watched some high level SC2 recently? I'll only concede the point in case of F2A zerg players, but that seems to be Blizzard's design goal with that race anyway.

>blizzfags are present
>thread is mostly e-sports, muh apm, shit taste and /pol/

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>>356533228
Fixed that for you

>>356521156
>I'm just going to ignore the issues people brought up with game X and tell them to play game X.

>>356536409
SupCom has heavy micro though.

>>356536098
it use to be. you'd have to build walls around key structures like powerplants in red alert so enemy commandos didn;t insta gib your power and halt your entire production. you couldnt cluster key production facilities either like you do in sc because super weapons would punish you for it. defense structures use to actually function as such throughout the entire game and not be simply early warning systems or a way to block certain cheese strategies.

>>356536409
>logistics
not much logistics in supcom really... just upgrading factories

>>356536332
it's hugely important in all games. it's just less tedious in sc2. bw required you to continuously click to make your units actually go where you want them to and wc3 all you had to do was micro. more micro doesn't mean better

builds aren't as tight as you think they are unless you lose a drone in the first minute of the game or something which you have to be basically awful to do.

>>356536543
this, if you really want to play slow paced strategy just play 4k strategy/grand strategy games like the paradox games

>>356536405
A game plan on defeating your opponent that works under certain circumstances.

>>356536551
It still is. High level players can deduce the opponent's build based off what buildings he makes, and when he makes them.

Even low level players can see a Dark Shrine warping in SC2 and know to prepare detection.

>>356536332
even at the highest levels of sc2 people attack move deathballs into each other and never run units out of the fight back alone, just reposition clumps of units to dodge some aoe or get a better concave

dancing units in sc2 just doesn't exist because even besides the instant death speed of fights and paper hp, wounded units are rarely worth saving as healing is far more expensive or nonexistent, and instead of wc3 where bodyblocking was everything the sc2 engine has pathfinding and tiny collision radiuses that make it so units just stream through each other as if they werent there.

>>356536630
I haven't kept up with sc2 comp since wol, I don't know how meta changed. I just remember that whoever 4 gated first was a big deal.

>>356536556
Just because you're floating mass all day like it's nobody's business doesn't mean you're not wasting resources.

>>356536471
I watched a game while I read this thread, it was a rerun with grubby playing some chink
fights were just what the anons in this thread said, big clusterfuck of units rammed into each other and blew up in the time it takes to sneeze

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>>356531989
>rts games are autistic spergfests
>"gitgud"
>no ill just not play them
>???
>rts is dead

>>356536725
>Gives no circumstances
>Tell me how to overcome the nonexistent circumstances

>>356536742
Confirmed for knowing jack shit about SC2 and just making shit up.

>>356523316
>shuffling units in and out
>BLINK
>STALKERS

>>356536543
>>356536719
>heavy micro
Moving a t1 bot around to dodge shots (which only matters until more than a handful of units is on the field, which is about minute 10 mark) isn't heavy micro. The only micro that really matters in SupCom is ASF circling.

>>356536829
ok d00d

>>356536409
That's not the reason its a RTT, there is the more detailed cover and concealmente mechanics, supression mechanics, armor facing/directional damage; the main focus of the game is on lower level tactical concerns as opposed to strategic resource management and army creation.

>>356536834
Nigger Blizzcon is happening in these days and you're watching Grubby from fucking years ago? What the fuck man?

>>356536742
Sc2 actually has an issue of working too well. Unit bump priority made movement unimpeded, as well as made path finding near perfect. You could barely move up a ramp in sc1 without vision due to broken path finding if someone was at the top of the ramp.

Wc3 body blocking was the intended mechanic.

I've actually had a hard time emulating certain maps in sc2 due to this. See, no working kodo tag or rabbits vs sheep. You can't get the units to move "incorrectly" enough to emulate wc3.

>>356516574

For fuck's sake, how many times are we gonna see this thread? At this point even a complete fucking donkey woulda learned that market oversaturation + shift to consoles + death of mid-tier devs killed RTS.

>MOBA - 26 hits

Fucking embarassing

>>356536768
early WoL meta was shit and the game has made massive improvements since then. 4gate is barely used anymore, is a bigger commitment due to warp gate changes and PvP is one of the most macro oriented matchups in LotV.

go watch some LotV

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>>356535958
>Every god damn time "3v3 fastst no rush 10 min".
>MFW i rushed

>>356537014
It also has a shitload of making sure your concave isn't complete ass when you take an engagement.

That's honestly what of most your actions seem to be spent on in that game.

>>356537014
Actual combat units take the least amount of micro in supcom. It's mostly managing your builders and factories that's needing micro.

>>356537030
its a rerun from last week

>>356537138
Okay, I will. I actually have been watching a lot of sc1, there's this twitch channel where these guys develop bots for it, and then the bots play against each other. It's really fun to watch while I'm working.

>>356536508
>red didn't take a win that was right there (unless he planted the bottom left circle in the last round, which means he will win in his next turn)
>not losing on purpose
??
dude on the left is correct

>>356523991
THIS
H
I
S

>>356536919
Come up with your own, with examples from an RTS game you like. Stop avoiding the answer.

>>356537259
Dude on the left is red. Dude on the right is green and doesn't know the winning strategy for tic-tac-toe so he lost. Wait a minute, I'll fix it.

>>356537163
Dude.

Grubby retired as an active SC2 player in 2015 some time. He's a HoTS and WC3 streamer now.

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>>356537259
>>356537406
Clearer now?