>mfw everybody knows deep down that the eagles are a legitimate

>>84104497
How?

>give a hoot
>READ A BOOK!

they're a lazy plot device at least

Eagles can't even fly you fucking pleb.

>>84104520
In a meta sense, yes, but contextually they work just fine.

The Eagles didn't pay their taxes until the end of the 3rd movie.

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>mfw the eagles know the eagles are a huge plot hole

>powerful wizards on both sides
>not a single lightning bolt, fireball, nothing

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>>84104497
THEY WERE ON A BREAK

>magic world
>didnt just send the ring into space
Tolkien is a hack

The Eagles couldn't legally claim two hobbits and the ring at Mordor customs. They could export them from Mordor, but not import them due to the high domestic non-tariff barriers to trade.

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>>84104497
OK, so this is the hole I see. Sauron knows that Frodo and the Hobbits have carried the ring before, as the Ringwraiths saw Frodo with the ring at Weathertop. Why then, does Sauron send his whole army to meet Aragorn's in the field at the Black Gate, when he has received reports that two Hobbits have been trying to get into Mordor, and are no longer in their custody. Sauron definitely knows this, as the Mouth of Sauron presents Frodo's mithril armour to Aragorn at the gate (both in the book and in the extended film version).

Basically, why was Sauron so convinced Aragorn had the ring when he knew there were two Hobbits who in the past had been carrying the ring tramping about Mordor somewhere? Why would he fall so easily for this trap?

Why didn't the Eagles just join the Allies in 1939?

>>84104670
They don't think Aragorn has the ring, they think Merry/Pippin have it. The orcs capture Merry and Pippin, believing they have the ring. That's the only reason they are kept alive. They are taken to Isengard but manage to escape during a Rohan ambush of the Orcs that captured them. Cue Sauron looking for the ring again.

>>84104672
>Sauron=Hitler
>eagles=Americans
woah

>>84104670
>when he has received reports that two Hobbits have been trying to get into Mordor
It was just Frodo that was captured and as far as the orcs and Sauron knew he was just a spy acting on his own as they never found the ring on him nor did he tell them what his purpose was and he was alone. As for Aragorn, Sauron believed he had the Ring as it was the only reason he could think of as to why Aragorn would be supposedly arrogant enough to attack him head on at the gate. Remember that Sauron wants the ring back not just to regain his old strength but also to prevent anyone else from using the ring to usurp him.

>>84104765
really tickles your pickle

Do the books ever get good? I'm at the part with Tom Bombadill.

>>84104737
Right, but for what purpose would two Hobbits be trying to sneak into Mordor alone other than to deliver the ring to Mount Doom? If I were Sauron that would be my first assumption. Even if they thought Merry and Pippin had it, there's no way they could be completely sure of that, or that they hadn't given it to someone else.

>>84104497
They couldn't use the eagles, because they are very pride and would get corrupted instantly or so was the actual reason. But yes, they should have included that. Like, First Mr Beutlin, you are a fat hobbit, second I am fucking Wizard and third thats why we wont use THE FUCKING EAGLES?

>>84104765
>look up the War of Wrath
>find out Thangorodrim actually existed

>>84104815
>Mr Beutlin

hallo Hans

>>84104814
I don't think Sauron knows that Sam and Frodo are actually in Mordor until the very last minute.

The big question is, why the fuck is the one place the ring can be destroyed not guarded by an army of thousands of orcs? It's like literally just a burn all you want buffet for magical rings with no entry fee.

>>84104815
>Like, First Mr Beutlin, you are a fat hobbit, second I am fucking Wizard and third thats why we wont use THE FUCKING EAGLES?

lol what

>>84104814
Sauron was arrogant enough to believe that no one would even try to willingly destroy the ring and so never bothered to account for this possibility. He was actually quite correct too as no living being could willingly destroy the ring as Frodo showed by claiming it instead of dropping it into Mt Doom. The ring was only destroyed due to luck and divine intervention.

>have a trillion orcs at your service
>dont leave one (1) single orc to hold the entrance to the only place in the universe where your magical ring can be destroyed because "t-they wouldnt destroy it, r-right? they wouldnt try to do the only thing that could ultimately defeat me r-right?"

why was tolkien such an useless cunt?

>>84104670

Saurons pride. He doesn't actually think anyone is capable of destroying the ring, and he's right, no one can willingly destroy the ring standing inside mt doom. So the hobbits making it through mordor are inconsequential since they're actually just bringing it closer without much risk to him, he thinks.

With Aragorns army coming to the black gate he has an opportunity to extinguish the royal line of numenor, which he's been at war with dating back to the second age. Not to mention it would shatter the world of men

>>84104948
He already even knew they were trying to take it there.

Um....

What does the ring even do?

>>84104978
whatever the plot wants it to do because tolkien is a hack

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>>84104497
>implying the eagles are the major plot hole
>not the huge black hole in Sauron's finances that would stifle his ability to ever legitimately maintain an army of any size

>>84104497
From literally years of these threads and general internet discussion on this topic, what I've gathered is that the eagles probably wouldn't have worked (at least not by themselves) and the outcome would've been unpredictable.
Having said that, when they discuss various shit solutions right before the fellowship forms, no one even suggests the eagles. This is such that it makes it clear that Tolkien never considered the eagles as a potential solution.

I don't know if that counts as a huge plothole, but it's probably at least minor

>>84104809
Imho, the Tom Bombadil section was one of the best parts of the story. It had an awesome dreamy whimsical sort of tone that felt really different and out of place from the rest of the story.

the books (shitty) would've been much better (still shit) if fredo and samuel died and none of the eagles shenanigans and the shire shit happened

>>84105007
>entire country/region of mordor depicted as lifeless hellhole surrounding a volcano
>no crops or livestock in sight
>somehow the orcs are all well fed and even have understanding of the concept of menus
Tolkien? More like Hackien amirite?

>Wizard causes lightning and an avalanche from 1000 miles away
>Cant do something similar to the cliff helms deep is built into

Seems odd to me desu

>>84105052

It feels out of place because they literally just left the Shire and a sojourn in Bombadil's house doesn't feel deserved.

I've read Fellowship of the Ring twice and each time I couldn't bring myself to finish the series. It's a shame because I love reading about the lore of the series online.

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>>84105075
>tfw the orcs were the good guys all along
>they just wanted to live a peaceful life

>>84105090
In the book the mountain is just pissed that the fellowship are on it. Nothing to do with Saruman

The eagles represent divine intervention in all of Tolkien's work so couldn't have just brute forced the ring to Mount Doom as that wasn't how the gods worked
Jackson at least alludes to this when he shows Gandalf offering a prayer in the form of whispering to that small bird before being saved from Saruman

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what are these faces trying to convey

>>84104497
it even ruined the hobbit

>>84105129
He's cupping Elrond's balls

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>have thousands of spy birds, one of the most useful things you could have in a medieval setting
>only show up in one scene

>>84105075
>and even have understanding of the concept of menus
Can you imagine a fucking orc restaurant? I bet they make the meal in front of the customers, including the butchering.

>>84105120
Still a big problem in the movie tho

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>>84104809
Yeah, a lot more goes on than the films, and things that did make it int the films happen differently. It can be tiresome reading the descriptive parts of the scenery and stuff sometimes, but just soldier on and it's definitely worth it.

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if ghibli hated legoland and wanted to get more kills than him why not just kill him at helmet's deep???

>>84105162
Well it was directed by a hack

>>84104838
Hello James.

>>84104940
this

>>84105186
Because he is a tsundere, he actually loves Legolas

>>84104497
Eagles would get BTFO'd by nazgul as soon as they got near Mt. Doom

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>be entrusted with the ring
>offer it to literally three people in the first movie (Gandalf, Galadriel, and Aragorn)
>each one of them is the jackpot for the ring if it can corrupt them

Why was Frodo so shit at his job?

>>84105204
kek

>>84104809
>I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend
Yes, it does.

>>84105224
Being able to relinquish the ring was the only skill he needed though. If anything he started off too good

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>Dwarfs (miners and blacksmiths), Orcs and Ogres living inside a cave for hundreds of years
>somehow dropping something and making a little noise is enough to awaken the cave demon

>>84105326

I thought it was already awake, the orcs just bolted whenever it came near.

>>84105162
Saruman had clearly gone completely mad with arrogance and pride, why use magic when you can use black powder and an army of 10,000 plus

>>84105126
its a moth you imbecile, and it flies to gwaihir the eagle to ask for his help.

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>get on the eagles
>snipe orcs etc.
>It ain't me starts playing

What does /tv/ think happened to the Entwives?

I like to think they built the shire

>>84105326
think it was around for a while since Balin noted the low levels were constantly on fire. It attacks at that moment because of the ring, since Sauron was a servant of Morgoth the same as the Balrog.

>>84104497
its easily explained
>there's almost no eagles left because like Elves they don't sex often
>does not seem worth to help since who cares about sauron
>oh shit those are some big battles
>damn even elves got involved
>okay we help now

>>84105399
We don't know the motivations behind the balrog. Balrogs probably aren't very smart of calculating, they're spirits of shadow and fire. Also, how would he know of the ring?

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>>84105326
>tfw wanted a balrog in the final battle but it never came.

;/

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>down syndrome: the thread
the eagles would have been shot down by ballistas

Why didnt the elves give everyone that same super armour they gave Frodo?

>>84104887
All the orcs were facing Abdullorn's caliphate army at the border

>>84105390
well one walking tree is seen in the shire during lotr so it's possible, though originally they settled east of mirkwood but the ents found it razed. Most are probably dead, Tolkien hinted that it was a hopeless search. Ents don't need wives to breed though, trees can become ents over time.

>>84105417
Balrog just wanted a friend

>>84104497
Because the fucking gigantic eye right up on the damn top of the tower would have spotted a bunch of gigantic birds flying towards him. You being a retard is not a plot hole on the movie's part.

>>84105420
I highly doubt the power of the ballistas is high enough to shoot javelins 10,000 ft up into the air

>you will never wake up a Balrog by tossing your chamber pot into his lair

>>84105418
That one was the last remaining, like Smaug was the last dragon.

>>84105417
he exists in the shadow realm like the wraiths so he can feel it like they can. THIS balrog probably doesn't seem smart since Morgoth was banished so its only instinct was to hide somewhere deep, the same as how Saurons servants scattered when he was defeated. Overall I think Balrogs are pretty intelligent and this one was extremely old.

>>84105441
the dwarves gave that to bilbo, not the elves to frodo. frodo only has it because bilbo passed it on to him

Why didnt Eric illuminati just make them stop? Muh free will or he likes them fighting?

>>84105472
>implying disembodied eye Sauron could do shit about it

>>84105499
>he exists in the shadow realm like the wraiths
Says who?
>Overall I think Balrogs are pretty intelligent
They never display much intelligence, they seem more like creatures consumed by passions.

>>84105480
and how were they supposed to get the correct trajectory to drop a ring in a volcano from 10,000 ft

>>84104497
Why didn't legolas just fly the bat with the ring into Mordor?

>Put ring into small and very strong box
>destroy the key to that box

Seems like that would have been a better way to transport it, rather than just wearing it around his neck where anyone could grab it

"The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. "

Even old man Tolkien admitted that they were a crappy deus ex machina.

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>>84105472
>gigantic fucking eye on the damn top of the tower doesn't spot Frodo and Sam very unsubtly approach and then sneak into Mordor
>but it totally would've spotted some birds a few hundred miles away

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>wraiths have flying mounts
>ride on horseback to the Shire

Did the Balrog have to pay tax to the dwarfs and then the orcs? Was he tax exempt?

>>84105516
Eric Illuminati did help them. Gollum didn't fall by himself.
>>84105521
Sauron wasn't disembodied, nor was he a big eye on a tower.
>>84105538
You can't destroy the ring by dropping it in the caldera, you have to go where Sauron forged it.

>>84105569
They were incognito. Hence the cloaks

>>84105390
They evolved into hobbits

Why didnt melker keep the ring instead of the obvious and inevitable happening?

>>84105592
>incognito
>unsublty murder everyone they come across

>>84105574
>You can't destroy the ring by dropping it in the caldera, you have to go where Sauron forged it

[citation needed]

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[Autistic screeching]

>>84105522
well, it's a creature of shadow and created by Morgoth himself, scarcely lower than Sauron. I think it's fairly obvious it would sense the ring. What exactly do the Balrogs do that suggests they aren't intelligent? They fought and often beat the elves in their hayday, literally the most intelligent capable people imaginable. The moria one doesn't know that Gandalf is istari and wouldn't imagine that he could destroy the bridge, expecially at risk to himself. Evil doesn't understand sacrifice.

>>84105651
Balrogs are Maiar, a class of angels/demons some of whom chose to serve Melkor while others didn't. He didn't create them, he just recruited some of them, including Sauron

>>84105560
>Gondor is right next to Mordor
>Aragorn's just defeated the armies of Mordor
>the bad guys are all retreating/dying
>Frodo passes out
>writing that Sam dragged Frodo out to a beacon such that a gondor scout patrol came and rescued them and brought back to Gondor, all while Frodo was asleep, was harder than just being like "and then the eagles saved them"
>hell, he could even have just written that Gandalf used his wizard powers to locate Frodo or Frodo's sword (if locating another living creature causes other plot holes) and then the gondor soldiers found them
How is Tolkien so respected?

>>84105522
>>84105499
>>84105417
Uh, Balrogs were Maiar that Morgoth sweet talked into joining his side, they are of the same people as Gandalf, Sauron, and Saruman. One of them was the commander of Sauron's army, so I highly doubt Balrogs were dumb.

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>Sauron raises his arms to finish off a fallen opponent and gets stabbed
>grim reaper guy raises his arms to finish off fallen opponent and gets stabbed
These superpowerful final boss guys sure are stupid and wear shitty armour when the plot needs them to

>>84105570
No, he was a special case. Due to the unjust invasion of his territory, part of the reparations package he later received (which the orcs respected) was that his income was tax free and certain restrictions in the rest of moria didn't apply to his region (like gay marriage and prostitution)

>>84105385
lmao is that real?

>>84105129
They are gay as fuck and the camera angle doesn't let us see they are fondling each other's phaluses.

>>84105688
>a gondor scout patrol can travel dozens of miles into Mordor and rescue two midgets from the side of an eurupting volcano

Can men or elves successfully reproduce with one of gandalfs species? Asking for a friend

>>84105735
It's from the old thread I luckily saved. THAT was kino

>>84105618
I don't have the source with me right now but it's true, the ring must be destroyed in the cracks of doom.
>>84105651
>created by Morgoth himself
Corrupted, sure, created, no.
>I think it's fairly obvious it would sense the ring.
I don't see why. Gandalf is a Maia too, yet he didn't sense the ring.
>>84105690
They never display any semblance of intelligence.

Can we all agree that Tolkien was a talentless hack?

>>84105745
>*careless whisper starts playing*

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Hopefully when the Zack Snyder directed remake happens they'll address all these issues

How did Gandalf and Aragorn learn Orcish? Did they hire orcs as tutors?

>>84105776
>we may live to see an all-female cast LOTR

>>84105741
Yeah?
Better that than some giant eagles who are supposed to be neutral and who beg the question why they didn't just make the entire process easier from the get-go

>>84105745
There's one instance of a Maia and an elf breeding, so I don't see why not.

>>84104670
Caspere knew this.

>>84105690
>One of them was the commander of Sauron's army

Morgoth's army

i r dum.

>>84104940
why all that chase for the ring then? If he thought whoever had it would claim it and be corrupt, then why not just sit back and let them destroy themselves? what was sauros's endgame, holocausting the entire middle earth with the power of the ring?

>>84105793
black speech isn't = orcish

i don't even think there is one "orcish" language either, orcs speak a lot of languages and dialects, which is why they often use common tongue amongst themselves

>>84105795
This is why you aren't a succesful author

Could Sauron be destroyed if you smashed him upside the head with a really large chair?

>>84105794
>starring melissa mccarthy as Gandalfina

>>84105793
The black speech isn't spoken only by orcs.
>>84105830
Actually yes. Not permanently, but you can destroy his body. A physical fight is what destroyed him the first time.

>>84104887
Remember this was set in a time where global communication didn't exist like we take for granted today. Remember in the books that Gandalf had to go to Minis Terith and look up the inscription Frodo found on the ring ton confirm it was legit. This took a long time.

Point is, access to knowledge the viewers take for granted like how to destroy the ring isn't well known in middle earth, it is known to a select few only such as a few Wizards and Elves. Gimli is a powerful dwarve and he had no clue you had to take it to mt doom, remember the council at rivendell? Some of the most powerful good guys in Middle Earth are there and a lot of them didn't know about mt doom until Elrond tells them.

Goes to show that only a handful of people in Mid earth had that knowledge, and guarding a volcano would only make people curious and so it wasn't worth the risk

>>84104597
This
Is there any proof that they were actually even wuzards??

>>84105776
>A ten film long philosophical exploration of medieval fables and superstitions, strangely analogous with the creation of the modern concepts of religion
>Hated by plebs the world over, "why did Frodo spend an entire film just bathing and getting wasted?", "why did Aragorn go to that random guy for a new religion before divorcing his wife? was that really needed?"
>recognised 50 years later as the greatest 30 hours of film ever created

>>84105858
actually, black speech shouldn't be spoken by orcs at all, see >>84105815

IIRC, black speech is a pretty artificial literary idiom invented by Sauron himself, I don't think any orcs would use it in everyday conversation, that's just Hackson fucking up again

>>84105822
>aren't I?
;)

>>84105870
proof
>ded balrog
>galadriel power visions
>gandalf blinding nazghul
>sarumans door closing spell

is this enough?

>>84105895
SHATNERED

>>84104497
It's such an oft repeated statement that the Tolkein website has an answer to it

>>84104887
Sauron is incapable of conceiving that someone would want to destroy the ring.
>>84105893
Yeah, probably not in everyday conversations, but some orks know it for sure, probably the captains.

>>84105830
>>84105858

Could a chair of pure mithril be destroyed if you chucked Sauron at it during a drunken bar brawl?

>>84105870
They wear cloaks and speak elvish. What more proof do you need? Why would anyone lie about being a crusty old ass virgin?

>>84105870
they are more like battle mages

"Why didn't X do Y" is not a plot hole in anything. That just means character motives were poorly explained. Nothing to do with plot.

Fucking pleb morons.

>>84105912
a shitty apologist's answer no doubt

>>84105914
No, and if thrown with sufficient strength, it would both kill him and break his armor.

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>>84105903
Then why does he fight with a sword like a melee cuck? He could be killing bad guys by the thousands

>>84105903
They weren't actually wizards though and they didn't initially state they were. It was only over time when the other races noticed/felt/realized they were more than ordinary old men and began calling them wizards (humans atleast)

>>84105940

That's all the questions I have for now, thank you.

>>84105960
Glad to have been of help.

>>84105761
>They never display any semblance of intelligence.


Again, Morgoth appointed Gothmog as the field commander of his armies. Unless he wanted to lose on purpose, it doesn't make sense to put a mindless animal as a military leader.

Plus, he do know that Gothmog ordered his troll guard to zerg rush Hurin but NOT kill him, and when Hurin was finally defeated he chained the guy and mocked him all the way to Angband. Once again, hardly the behavior of somebody who can't think or speak.

If Mithrill is really indestructible... why didn't Sauron make the One ring using that metal?

>>84106049
cause he aint no dwarf

>>84106009
>it doesn't make sense to put a mindless animal as a military leader.
I'm not saying mindless, just not smart, not the type of guy to make big plans of his own. Also, control of armies is probably a thing they do through magic rather than actual deliberate orders.
>>84106049
Mithril isn't indestructible, also what would be the point. Sauron didn't plan to lose the ring and in his arrogance probably never thought there was a chance of losing it.

>>84106075
>I'm not saying mindless, just not smart, not the type of guy to make big plans of his own
He was smarter than the other balrogs, that's for sure.

>>84106049
On that same note, just because mithril is indestructible, that doesn't explain how Frodo survived a direct hit to the chest from the troll in moria
Surely the force exported from the momentum would be enough to cause severe internal organ damage if not outright crushing his rib-cage?

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Why didn't the Nazi just fly into Russia and bomb
Stalin?

>>84106115
Only dwarves know the true qualities of mithril so all we can do is hypothesize it's properties.
Maybe it could absorb pressure

>>84106109
Sure, but durin's bane isn't Gothmog.
>>84106115
Force dissipation I guess?

>>84106136
Children kept stealing the nazis bomb making materials to make fireworks

>>84106136
Of course that's true but they could have saved time even if they got of at one point. Jesus H christ

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Why didn't he cover up his only one weak point instead of making stand out as much as possible?
What the fuck was he trying to achieve by reaching with his weak point towards an enemy?

>>84106109
The balrog was for sure intelligent, at least in the books. Gandalf puts a closing spell on the door and tells the rest of the fellowship that he felt a fearsome intellect on the other side of the door, and that the counter-spell almost broke him. I forget the exact wording but it's along those lines.

>>84106162
>Sure, but durin's bane isn't Gothmog.
Yeah I wasn't claiming that, just adding to the discussion.
The way the balrog acts does seem as if it's just on guard duty and not really planning anything, but he could be waiting for when his master returns. Either way it supports what you were saying, balrogs don't seem intelligent.

>>84106192
The movie got it wrong, Sauron was defeated like you defeat any other creature, it wasn't an achilles type of situation. The ring was removed after his death.
>>84106193
I remember it being more like a fierce power, I'll check it later.

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Somebody should make this into a high quality webm desu

>>84106192
His hand was very hot and heated the ring so it became even hotter. He wanted to burn Isildur very bad by grabbing him

>>84105938
From tolkeinsociety.org:

This question has become more prevalent in recent years after movie-goers saw the Eagles’ dramatic rescue of Gandalf from Orthanc and the Ringbearers from Mount Doom with no apparent motivation forthcoming for their appearances. However, Tolkien was aware of this question at an early stage, especially after reading the first film storyline for The Lord of the Rings in 1957. In that according to Tolkien “people gallop about on Eagles at the least provocation” (Letter No. p. 261). He knew for the strength of the story that they should be used sparingly.

In Tolkien’s mythology Eagles are the servants of the Lord of the Valar, Manwë. In the Silmarillion they were sent by Manwë to spy on Morgoth’s stronghold Thangorodrim, and guard Gondolin against Morgoth’s servants, and they played a part trying to protect the Elves during the fall of Gondolin. The Eagles already had a prescribed role, so they were not always at the beck and call of Gandalf.

Another point worth considering is that an Eagle of the size capable of carrying a tall humanoid would be an obvious target for both Orc archers and the flying Nazgûl. On a mission in which secrecy was a key element employing a giant Eagle to carry the ring is not the most sensible option.
Of course the ultimate answer to someone asking this question, is to reply that if the Eagles had just taken the ring to Mount Doom, then there wouldn’t be a story, and who would want that?

[page references are to Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 1981 & 2006]

>>84106192
Sauron could be slayed by a woman. But not a man. Didn't you watch the movies?

>>84104809
LoTR starts very slow and boring, but the writing improves with each book. By the time you get to The Return of the King, most of the superfluous description is gone and it's relatively fast-paced and exciting.

>>84106222
>balrogs don't seem intelligent
of course they are, they're Maiar, same class of "angels" as Gandalf and Sauron

>>84106075
>not the type of guy to make big plans of his own


... he was in charge of the whole army, an army that was engaging in sieges and assaults against high elves. Again, doesn't make any sense to put a dumbass who can't form any strategy to lead such a war. You are basing this "balrogs are dumb" claim in very flimsy ground so far.

Also, are you suggesting that he magically mocked Hurin? is Gothmog a master of stand-up comedy sorcery?

>>84105154

Those useless fucks couldn't see Gandalf hiding next to a rock

>>84106244
Haha thanks 9gag, what a good idea

>>84106193
>>84106226
If a balrog is a demon of war, couldn't it be said that they aren't intelligent but are naturally gifted at the art of warfare?

>>84106264
>He knew for the strength of the story that they should be used sparingly

HOW ABOUT NOT AT ALL

If you read the books, it talks about how using the eagles was not a good idea because there were hostile kingdoms of men between Rivendell and Mordor that were armed with special bows designed to take down eagles.

Regarding the eagles, every possible argument against them just flying the hobbits is here.
http://www.sean-crist.com/personal/pages/eagles/index.html

They are all debunked, even the one's Tolkien had made.

>>84106244
haven't seen this in years

>>84106270
There were differing levels of maiar though and had differing levels of power.

I am a bit lost in the argument, what's exactly the basis to this claim that Durin's Bane was "dumb"? That he doesn't speak? Because the consenssus among the fandom is that he didn't speak because he wasn't a pompous faggot like Samug and didn't care to communicate with the vermin he was about to slay, not because he lacked intelligence.

>>84104597
Saruman DID shoot a fireball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvX0o_a6liE

Watching Doctors again. Sick show this

>>84105569
in the books when they break through the gates of minas tirith the witch king rides through the doors on a horse

it's pretty silly considering they have fellbeasts

>>84106270
Werewolves weren't particularly intelligent, were they. Yet they were Maia too.
>>84106282
>doesn't make any sense to put a dumbass who can't form any strategy to lead such a war
I'm sure he was commanding them, like Sauron had orc generals. Yet those generals weren't commmanding the orcs by themselves, they were guided by Sauron, which is why orcs sort of stop functioning when Sauron realizes the ring is inside mt doom.
>Also, are you suggesting that he magically mocked Hurin?
You can mock someone with gestures.
But sure, they could have been smart.
>>84106321
Yeah, I think they're gifted in the sense of a wolverine is gifted at fighting. It's not like wolverines go to wolverine academy.

>>84106368
Don't know myself, I came into the thread half way through and didn't care enough to read back up.

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>>84106335
>armed with special bows designed to take down eagles

must be some bows
>see that tiny spot up a few kilometers up in the sky? might be an eagle, i'll shoot that fucker down, watch

If Smaug doesn't take baths, does he get smaugma?

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>>84106411

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How did Gollum know who took the ring?

>>84106411
Upvoted

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>>84106244
>Boromir in the book is a noble but otherwise ordinary man from Gondor who falls prey to the Ring and tries to take it for thirty seconds because he'd been thinking about protecting Gondor too hard
>Boromir in the movie wants to take the Ring after 50 minutes

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>>84106400

If only there was a precedent established in a previous book.

>>84106400
>giant eagles weren't a finite supply of resources
>near limitless supply of orcs and materials to build fortifications around the mountain, and fortify it incase of aerial assault

>>84106368
They're never described as cunning creatures, they never speak, the idea of a balrog is of a creature of flame and darkness, they're never able to do fuck all when morgoth isn't around.
As I said, I could be wrong, but I don't see much evidence for them being smart either.

>>84106424
Thanks I'll be here all night

>>84106190
There journey prepared them though, imagine if you just got dropped off a mile away from Mordor and had to just walse into the midst of it

Why didnt he hide the ring up his butthole

>>84106486
>walse

retard

>>84106439
sorry I forgot that Mt Doom is armed to the teeth with special anti-eagle air defense missiles

>>84106461
I reckon they're intelligent but they weren't given instructions like the five, so hid off somewhere to wait for daddy

>>84104497

The Eagles had been placed under a trade embargo as a result of failure to pay tax on their feather pillow trade. This meant they were unable to enter the kingdom of Mordor on any business.

>>84106499
>fell beast

Balrogs are the equivalent of the lesser angels. Balrogs are intelligent.

>eowyn cuts off the head of a fellbeast
>eagles can't take down a single fellbeast in the last battle

bravo tolkien

Notice how the Eagles were only around when there wasn't anything to really trouble them

>One eagle saves Gandalf from Saruman while Orcs are all busy chopping wood
>many eagles show up to tangle with fell beasts after the ground forces were disrupted and couldn't fling arrows
>a few eagles rescued Frodo and Sam in a low altitude situation from a bursting volcano with great updrafts due to the heat

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>>84106431
Assuming he just knew, why didn't he try to take it back? What was he trying to achieve by traveling all the way to Mordor and getting caught?

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>>84106530
were BTFO'd by the eagles when it came down to it

>>84106556
Eowyn didn't cut the head of le fell beast in the book.
Bravo Jackson

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why was an elf princess in love with a dwarf?
women DESPISE men that are shorter than them

>>84106556

They are no woman

>>84106574
uh, yes she did

>>84106556
>massive mobility in air
>restricted mobility on ground

Birbs > Flying Lizords

>>84106578

Dwarfs are girth incarnate

>>84106461
> they're never able to do fuck all when morgoth isn't around
The Valar would fuck them up if they tried

>>84106590
They're fat? You mean "mirth".

>>84106572
>fell beast + scorpion + bow/arrow = ???

>>84106585
All she did in the book was gloat and finish off the weakened witch king.

>>84106578
Eyebrows looks cute. No homo.

>>84106388
>Werewolves weren't particularly intelligent, were they. Yet they were Maia too.

Werewolves are a different case, the only two we know (Sauron shapeshifting into a wolf doesn't really count ) were specially bred by Morgoth into a monstrous shape, and he set with an evil spirit (which may or not be that of a Maia, AFAIK it wasn't ever specified as such) inside the beast to animate it. Balrog are not like that, they were corrupted but still remain the same individuals as before.

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>>84106611

>>84106499
The Orcs were actually had advanced triple A defenses in the form of 88cm flak cannon towers

>>84106622
Which only occurred because of pippins anti-ghost blade

>inb4 eowyn a strng gal

>>84106622
>Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon eowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

>Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair but terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

are you retarded

>>84106622
The movie shows a halfling stabbing Witch King in the calf. Does that mean anything?

>>84106658
Seems like she just finished the beast off. I don't get it. /s

>>84104809

Tom Bombadilio and his nonsense is the part where it really drags, along with the subsequent barrow downs chapter.

>oh noes an evil tree that's power is to make us fall asleep
>oh good a magical Gary Stu hippy to save us, who also has us fall asleep
>oh noes we are walking over some old graves and the ghosts are making us fall asleep again!

IMHO it gets a lot better once they meet Aragorn and there's someone to stop them falling into sleep traps

>>84106677
it does in the book, because that's a special magic dagger and that's what actually does the witchking in, but since the parts where the hobbits got those are left out in the movie, it doesn't translate

>>84106704
Aragorn is a big song trap instead, though

>>84104497

The books state that the Eagles are generally giant jerks and don't like people enough to bother helping them. From what I remember, Gandalf had to transcend life and death and reincarnate into the White Wizard to get enough sway so as to convince those assholes to even bother flying over, picking up two midgets, and then dumping them somewhere without eating them.

Like, yeah, 'the eagles are dicks' isn't a great excuse but at least it's there.

>>84106732
>the eagles are generally giant jerks

except when the plot needs them to help lol

bravo tolkien

>>84106717
So Jackson shows the stabbing but totally left out the parts where the stabby thing was of importance.

It must be another one of his wink/nod moments like "by all rights we shouldn't even be here".

>>84106746
thanks obama

>>84104967
You'd think he could have just sealed the mountain off.

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What was HCK Tolkien thinking when he included songs in the book? How are we supposed to know the melody?

>>84106759
no it's more like no one but tolkien autists give a shit about that stupid magical meme dagger and they couldn't be bothered filming that stupid barrow down sequence just to show him getting that dumb dagger

>>84106777
It's for you to invent anon. It was tolkiens message to you, he believes in you.

>>84106777
The melodies were DLC

>>84106792
>that stupid barrow down sequence

you take that back, barrow downs chapter is horror kino

>>84106759
The entire subplot about the witch-king, the "prohpecy", the dagger etc was basically cut when he excluded glorfindel.

>>84106704
>it gets a lot better once they meet Aragorn
This

>>84106792
>I AM NO MAN >:(
>good storytelling

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What did Tolkien mean by this?

>>84104978
Only details we get is that it
Controls the wearers of the other rings, plus being linked to its maker. and makes mortal wearers transport to the kind of spiritual realm so they can't be seen.

>>84106848
yea because a magical dagger merry randomly finds that was created like a thousand years ago specifically to kill the witch king is better storytelling

lol are you kidding me

>>84106889
>Merry randomly finds
At least read the fucking book

>>84105099
Honestly two towers and rotk are easier to get through then fellowship, fellowship spends a shitload of time on world building since it has to have a ton of exposition, especially the council of elrond

>>84106867
I thought it enhanced your natural abilities. It made hobbits invisible because hobbits are small and quiet, it made men more greedy because men are weak willed and desire power, it made elves more magical because elves are magical and shit, etc

>>84106777
So that he could sing the songs when he read the books for his kids

ive never watched any of these movies except for the hobbit which i saw in 48fps and almost vomited from motion sickness. should i watch the original trilogy?

>>84106889
Fate is such a big part of Tolkein that it makes complete sense

>>84106920
We honestly don't know what effects it had beyond corruption, malignant influence and "invisibility", which was simply a shifting of planes so to speak.

>>84106933
yes, Fellowship in particular is the absolute height of fantasy kino

watch the extended editions.

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>>84104497
Fag

>>84106933
Only the first two

>>84106622
>>84106574

Bro...

>Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

>Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair but terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

>Sauron
>Saruman
>they are allies
Wew

>>84106907
? they pick them up randomly in the barrows

>>84106943
and they changed the meaning of that fate in the movies by just skipping all the autistic blade bullshit and just making it fate that a woman and a hobbit kills the witch king

they are both equally fucking stupid

>>84106746

Just because they did one kind of nice thing after the fact doesn't make them NOT jerks, anon.

>>84106995
>Gandalf
>Galadriel
>Gimli
>Glorfindel
>Gamlin
>all Good Guys

>>84106995
For a time. The nazgul learnt from one of sarumans spies that he'd tricked them and was searching for the ring for himself.

>>84107011
Nah

>>84106704
Not liking Tom is the ultimate way to identify a tastless pleb who probably watched the movies first.

>>84107046
actually liking tom bombadil is the ultimate way to identify complete autists

>>84107075
Nah. It separates the fans from the autists.

>>84106986
Wow she killed a mount. What an amazing accomplishment

>>84107103
i get the feeling you know how to speak elvish as well

Alright, let's come to a consensus. What is the weakest part of the Trilogy? Not a movie but a part of one of the movies.

>>84107011
Tom Bombadil goes into the barrow and picks them out knowing they have some anti-evil magic

>>84107110
Not even one word. Also I'm pretty sure they're speaking a mumbo jumbo collection of different languages in the films as I picked up alot of slav words.

>>84107109
>moving the goalposts

>>84107138
if you don't know how to speak elvish then you aren't actually a fan

>>84107125
Ghost army ending the battle in 5 seconds

>>84107125
The fucking singing in the theatrical release and the extra fucking singing in the DC (lorien sing-along was the worst).

>>84107149
Nah, that's the autists. Only they would spend the time and effort learning a fictional language when you could use that to learn a living language and bettering your life.

>>84107125
i fucking hate the first scene of ROTK with andy serkis as hobbit gollum. it adds nothing we didn't already know and somehow it looks cheap as fuck. pulls me out of the movie every time.

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>wraiths get stabbed, shot with arrows, burned, crushed by a wall of water
>a single stab kills the wraith king because womyn
BRAVA

>>84107159
Ghost Army was an easy way to shorten the time of the already lengthy movie. But I'll be damned if it doesn't feel like a Deus Ex Machina every single fucking time.

>>84107193
>jackson
>expecting complete competency

>>84106372
wew saruman is a cuck

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>>84107210
>tolkien
>expecting a plot with no holes

>>84107193
Merrys sword is what did it, actually

>>84107218
Book saruman, or should I say sharkey, was worse.

>>84107206
maybe he'll replace them with green ghost eagles in the special edition

>>84107225
No one here seems to know what plot holes are

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*blocks your path*

>>84107256
isn't it a part of the movie I don't like?

>>84107256
Welcome to /tv/

>>84107250
>it was made by those who are dead, and the dead keep it...
>POLLY WANNA CRACKER?

>>84107225
Where's the plot hole?
>glorfindel "prohpecises" wk can't be killed by man
>blade to kill wraiths forged for war with wk
>war lost, wk wins
>hobbit finds blade
>hobbit stabs wk with blade meant to kill mk
>mk finally killable
>mk killed

>>84107193
No, Merry stabbed the Witch King with a fucking ancient magic sword that dispelled whatever sorcery kept him alive and unkillable, and then Eowyn delivered the killing blow.

>>84107238
why?

>>84107296
>tolkienfags think this is good writing

helpless

Why didn't the Witch King take his ball and chain weapon to kill the Flobbits on Weathertop?

>>84107335
>the ring wraiths get scared away by aragorn and run away like faggots
>the witch king breaks gandalfs staff in rotk

lol

>>84107321
>lost all his power
>became a gang-leader and took over the shire
>lives in burnt out bag end
>loses the shire to four hobbits and their hobbit army
>has throat sliced by worm(tongue)

tl;dr He jobbed to hobbits

>>84107324
What's the problem?

>>84107335
Because they weren't trying to kill Frodo

>>84104967
I know I'm late to the thread but no he didn't. Only Frodo was captured. Neither Sauron nor anyone else in Mordor knew about Sam.

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>castle has defensive siege weapons

>>84107401
what? why wouldn't they want to kill frodo? they knew he had the ring, what the fuck would they want some hobbit for?

>>84107369
wew embarrassing, should've just killed himself

>>84107406
Plus all the Orcs who knew about him were killed

>>84106995
This is a little goofy in how buddy-buddy they seem in the films.

The books, Saruman is way more strong independent wizard who don't need no dark lord.

When the Hobbits are hiding under the tree roots, literally directly underneath a Ring Wraith, and the ring is that close to him, how does he not sense the Ring and see the Hobbits?

>>84107293
I think claiming that the blades are some sort of 'special weapon' to hurt wraiths is reading far too much into it. It's just that the blades were made in hatred of Angmar and Tolkien is suggesting that the blade takes revenge for Arnor when it pierces his knee. Any blade would have done, just as Eowyns blade with a will behind it can pierce him.

>>84105099
You missing out the other books are goat

>>84107439
Kinda gets worse. He doesn't get to die, he goes on living like sauron does, invisible and unable to interact with the world for all eternity.

On the pro side, he did get to watch aragorn get it on with arwen

>>84105020
There was more going on in Middle-Earth than just the conflicts in the south. The eagles were probably busy protecting their own realm from attack.

>>84107456
In the book they are further away and a bunch of singing elves scare them off before they get close

>>84107456
Because it makes for a very tense scene.

>>84107461
True that. IMHO it's a pretty great plot hook for it's depth

>>84107456
even worse than that, frodo puts the ring on right in front of a bunch of the nazgul and they...don't do anything other than stab frodo with a morgul blade instead of ripping his finger off and taking the ring. the fuck kind of plot logic is that?

>>84107321
He failed to conquer a handful of hills inhabitted by fat, drunk pacifist midgets. This is the same guy who pretended he was worthy of being the new Dark Lord and wanted to reign over the entire world.

>>84107293
You know, I would love to see Glorfindel hearing what happened in the Battle of Pelennor Fields and realizing that he finally managed to troll the Witch King, just according to keikaku.

>>84107487
What I'm getting here is that I should just read the fucking books already. I haven't read a good book in at least four years.

>>84107493
True. All the bugs writhing to get away from the evil of the Ring Wraith is great stuff.

>>84107456
The ring isn't a fucking transponder. If Frodo had put it on they'd know immediately though.

>>84107466

I think I'm just going to skim a few key chapters from the Fellowship and then skip straight to the Two Towers.

This fucking book series has been on my to-do list for too long.

>>84107507
Why didn't sauron sense the ring all the times bilbo put the ring on? A legit plot hole trolls never use

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>Aragorn just happens to be hanging out at the first bar where the hobbits go

>>84107507
They were literally reaching for his hand before Aragon came in you dunce

>>84105052
>>84104809
>It had an awesome dreamy whimsical sort of tone

Agree

>>84107535
sam puts the fucking ring on in mordor to save frodo from the orcs after frodo gets stabbed by the spider. he doesn't sense that either. and it's in fucking mordor

>>84107507
in the book Aragorn is always there and they try to run and get cornered. Aragorn was protecting Frodo until he put on the ring and the witch-king only managed to stab him before being driven off.

>>84107521
But the Ring wants to be found. It calls to its master.

>>84107566
The ring is also a cheeky bastard

>>84104497
Wouldn't the flying Nazgul just intercept the eagles if they tried to fly Frodo into Mt Doom? It would have been obvious as fuck to all Sauron's spies n shit (and his eye) with Frodo flying obviously above them all carrying the one ring. They could sense its power just by looking I thought. At the very least Sauron would have put up an army at the mouth of Mt Doom to stop the hobbits when they got there. The whole point of using the hobbits was that they could sneak their way over there

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>>84107521
>The ring isn't a fucking transponder.
>If Frodo had put it on they'd know immediately though.

>>84107554
>>84107563
so...the witch king can break gandalf's staff but can't handle one fucking man? really? how is an 80 year old numenorian more powerful than a 10,000 year old wizard lol

>>84107512
>a handful of hills inhabitted by fat, drunk pacifist midgets

more like inhobbited amirite

>>84107535
>>84107559
I'm pretty sure it's never implied (in the books, at least) that Sauron would immediately know where the ring is as soon as someone puts it on

>>84107541
He was told where to go by Gandalf. Infact they see gandalf battling the ringwraiths on weathertop the night before they reached it.

>>84105815
In the book morgul orcs and is isengard Uruk hai have to speak common to one another

>getting your papers graded by Tolkien

Must have been stressful as fuck.

>>84107461
Except, the narration does mention exactly that, that the Barrow-Down sword was special:

>So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

>>84107591
Yeah, in the books isn't he just a shadow walking around his tower instead of a eye?

>>84107581
Because he's in the wraith world when he puts it on. He stands out like a sore thumb

Did Isildur teabag Sauron before removing the ring from his finger?

>>84107591
dont know about sauron, but as soon as frodo puts the ring on in mount doom the nazgul start flying immediately towards them

>>84107580
>Wouldn't the flying Nazgul just intercept the eagles if they tried to fly Frodo into Mt Doom?

The eagles own the fell beasts in combat, so that wouldn't really be a factor.

>>84107619
Pretty much yeah. The eye of Sauron as described in the book is completely figurative

>ISILDUR
>CAST THE RING INTO THE FIRE
>DESTROY IT!
>...
>no
What a boss

>>84107653
That's PJ taking liberties for dramatic effect

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>>84107678

>>84107619
>instead of a eye?

Did I get it wrong, or in The Hobbit flicks PJ retconned it into Sauron not being the Eye itself, but that what we see as a pupil is actually him floating in the middle of the flames?

>>84107611
and that quote just confirms what I said, that you are reading too much into it. The blade was made in hatred of Angmar, hence it deals a bitter wound since as a wraith the WK is actually affected by emotions. And the smith would be glad because he'd never suspect it would actually be used to hurt the WK.

>>84107722
Yes that happened in The HHobbi. A good retcon desu

>>84107722
Yea so it's really a shadow of himself surrounded by fire in the shape of an eye

>>84106192
Movie did that for dramatic effect, he was killed normally by 3 badasses who then took the ring off his corpse

>>84107678
edgy as fuck

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>>84107619
He's not a literal eye tho

>>84107775
But that ain't in his tower

>>84106400
If bard can shoot down Smaug with a normal bow and arrow eagles can be shot too

>>84107815
>normal arrow
It's still a special anti-dragon arrow in the book, he just doesn't keep it in his kitchen

>>84107815
This. He was the son of the man who failed to kill Smaug, but all that was special about the situation was the black arrows. The bow was basically just a ballista.

>>84107860
No it wasn't. It was just his most trustworthy arrow that he was always able to recover. It had no magical properties.

>>84107507
Probably thought it was the wedding ring Sam gave Frodo

>>84107815
yes i vividly remember all the fucking anti eagle ballista turrets stationed around mount doom

>>84107937
I remember all the fertile farms outside minas tirith

>>84107925
They certainly shared loads that night

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>light cavalry charging straight into multiple lines of pikes

>>84105870
my thoughts exactly

>>84105903
blocks with staff, hits weak point in old bridge plus wight of giant monster
spies, claims visions to keep up appearances
high grade flare, I mean the orks have some basic pyrotechnic technology why not have some smart old guy just make a slightly better version of what an ork can produce as orks are not know for their intelligence
hidden rope, just like the Greeks did it

>>84107723
The quote literally says that only the Barrow-Downs blad could deliver such effect of breaking the spells that mantained the Witch King unkillable. I think it is you who is misreading things, my african-american colleage.