were there any other Balrogs left in Middle Eath during the time

They were all driven underground as they weren't worthy of seeing Galadriel riverdance

it was reborn as Balrog the White

>>82190392
Gandalf explicitly calls it a demon of the ancient world, did you even watch the movie ?

>>82190392
Durins Bane?

>>82190595
He also said swords are no more use here and then beat it with his sword.

>>82190392
balrogs are the same type of being like gandalf or sauron, a maia. his spirit dispersed.

>>82190748
for a spirit to completly vanish is impossible in Tolkiens cosmology, as they they are the same as souls in Christian mythology, thus immortal. Saurons and Sarumans spirits did survive, but they were denied to ever re-enter Valinor and were left to be wandering Middle Earth untill the end of times

>>82190894
yes, dispersed not vanished. also i am not sure of that but arent humans the only ones with souls while elves are part of arda/nature while maia are just exstension of erus power?

>>82190894
just like sheev and obi wan

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>>82190507
>Galadriel riverdance
Someone explain to me this meme

>>82190689
A sword he used as a conduit for his sorcery faggot.

>>82190894
>>82190894
So if they can't "re enter," An have just just wander around in spirit form....can other spirits meet each other and start fighting?

>>>/lit/

>>82191041
Nah he just swung at it and cut it's horn off. Pretty sure Aragon or Boromir would have been better to be fair considering they are much better fighters.

>>82190982
yeah, elves had souls of a different kind than humans, as in they were ultimately tied to Arda. thats why elves could be reborn after their death, they're spirits just came back to Valinor after their death. that also means that after Arda itself ultimately ends after a long time, their spirits will forever die with it. human souls after their death did not stay in Arda but reunited with Eru and would take part in another cycle of creating the world with him, ulltimatelu humans were more immortal than elves, only their souls would survive the ending of Arda

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>Gandalf falls down with the Balrog into the depths of Moria
>next scene is them both falling from the sky onto a mountain peak.

explain this shit.

>>82191069
are you retarded? gandalf is literally chunk of gods power who took on old grandpa shape. boromir or aragorn wouldnt even survives the fall.

>>82191065
>he doesnt know about comfy lotr lore threads

>>82191212
>We fought from the deepest dungeon to the highest peak."

>>82191225
He only fell into water after swinging his sword at it after saying swords are useless.

>>82191212
"We fell into the deepest pits of the earth, yadda yadda yadda, I smote his ruin upon the mountaintop"

>>82191309
That wasn't a sword. It was a sword-shaped lightning bolt.

>>82191309
no he fell thousands of meters while getting burned by balrog as well as hitting the walls. he also enforced the sword with his divine powers so he could strike balrog who is spirit himself and wouldnt be wounded by normal blade.

>>82191212
>'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.
>'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
>'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'

>>82191212
>>82191384
'Long has that been lost,' said Gimli. 'Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.'
'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed. ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

>>82191373
Aragon or Boromir could have probably killed it on the bridge since they are much better with a sword than Gandalf.

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>>82191384
>>82191410

god tier answers, anon. here have some artwork as payment.

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>>82191384
>>82191410
This is the kind of stuff people were talking about when they said LOTR was unfilmable.

>>82191489
>>82191212
If you look at the time line given in the appendices

January 15, 3019 - The Fellowship parts after Gandalf falls into Khazad-dûm while fighting a Balrog.
January 17, 3019 - The Fellowship arrives at Caras Galadhon at evening.
January 23, 3019 - Gandalf pursues the balrog to the peak of Zirak-zigil.
January 25, 3019 - Gandalf slays the Balrog and dies. His body stays on the peak.

>>82191384
>>82191410
And so died Galdalf: The Weakest Maiar. lol

>>82191602
holy fuck, a ten days fight

>>82191602
>>82191602
That old fucker is fighting for 6 straight days?! Like calm down bitch there had to have been a moment where both were tired and could have just walked away

why did the balrog fall down? its got wings for fucks sake.

MASSIVE PLOT HOLE
BRAVO TOLKIEN

>>82191671
they were both immortal spirits, Gandalf was constrained by his flesh body, but propably went super saiyan for the fight

>>82191671
As was said, the Balrog tried to flee, Gandalf ran it down.

>>82191671
They're both immortal, and they're both basically demi-gods so I'm sure it wasn't that big a deal.

>>82191455
thats a good fucking artwork, thanks anon, saved

>>82191671
More like a days long chase followed by two days of fighting at the mountaintop.

Bear in mind, if Gandalf had let the Balrog go, he would have been lost in the LotR version of the UnderDark until some eldritch horror ate him.

This thread is hilarious

>>82191784
This shit makes me laugh to be a normal human in this world

>ohh look a fucking smoking monster and an old man fighting on the mountain agin...GET A JOB!

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>>82190392
why were balrogs so hard to kill even for a maiar? i get that mortals or even elves have a hard time, but come on.

even radagast should be able to take one on

>>82191006

It's mommy Cate

>>82191868
balrog is also maia. they are the same race.

why does everyone one refer to them as "belrog" and "gandalf"
its clearly satan and god

>>82191868
Balrogs ARE Maiar.

>>82191868
Balrogs ARE maia.

>>82191868
balrogs were maiar

>>82191868
belrogs = mayors

fuckng retad

>>82191956
>>82191965
>>82191969
They're what?

Who would win in a fight

The Eagles vs A Balrog

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>>82190633

>>82191938
>>82191956
>>82191965
>>82191969
lorehivemind

>>82192002
idris elba

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You came to the wrong Mountain Bal Bitch!
>Y-you came to the m-mountain not me!

>>82191949
if you want to use such terminology then gandalf is angel and balrog demon.

>>82192071
Really more apt to call them both demigods.

>>82192071
and aragorn is jesus

>>82192002
IIRC the Eagles aren't Maiar or divine in any way, Manwe just sent them to help out with that sweet rebellion that Feanor was mucking about with.

what was Balrog's tax policy?

>>82192119
they are demigods in tolkiens world. he wanted christian terminology for whatever reason

>>82192171
thousand dwarven sacrifices per day.

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Who was he again?

>>82191069
>>82191309
>>82191425
They would have died with the first hit taken even if they had blocked the strike. Gandalf isn't normal in any way. He only appears to look normal. It was basically a super saiyan fight.

>>82191868
bellends= malfunction

>>82192213
But how does the Balrog redistribute the dead dwarves to better middle earth

>>82192407
free people of middle earth are undesirebles. they will be replaced by honest hard working law abinding orcs and goblins.

>>82191701
>its got wings
No it doesn't.

>>82192626
It does in the flick and that's what we should be discussing here.

>>82192267
>Who am I gambling?
Didn't realise Theoden was an addict and going senile at that.

>>82191880
I dont understand

>>82192181
I mean, good for him, cuz he's catholic and whatnot, but then he wrote about "angels" in the form of the vala who have domains of control within the world and who marry each other.

That suggests more that the Vala are like polytheistic gods with the Maia being like demi-gods (with a supreme being above everything).

>>82194097
Valar are greater angels, Maiar are lesser angels. there is only ane God and its Eru

>>82195110
Not an argument.

Angels don't marry.

>>82190689
Kek

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>>82191384
>>82191410
It's a real pity that the word Epic has been watered down so much over the years, because that's Epic writing, in the original sense, right there.

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>>82191006
BEADY

>You will never use the spike on your helmet to impale a Balrog only to drown in a pool.

>>82190392

Theres a theory that Sauron intended on recruiting Durins Bane and Smaug to lead his armies against Gondor (Balrogs used to ride into battle on dragons in the 1st age).

Also, theres probably a few in hibernation deep beneath the iron hills.

>>82190392
Feanor bitchslapped the rest of them.

>>82195848
>Sauron intended on recruiting Durins Bane and Smaug to lead his armies against Gondor

Both are creatures of Morgoth, Saurons pimp, if anything they're his equal and god hemp Middle Earth should Durins Bane get the ring, he'd become a very big Balrog.

>>82196185
For you to get the command structure of Morgoth's forces, you have to understand that Morgoth and Sauron were about the strongest of their kind respectively (Valar and Maiar)

>>82196289
Yes, but Morgoth pissed it all away during the First Age and Sauron put it all in the ring. There wouldnt be lots of loyalty from a Balrog to Sauron.

>>82196361
I mean yeah, but half the point of that post was to say "For you".

>>82191384
Is there ever actually any in depth description of the nameless things?

>>82196505
I got that, and you should have continued with another subtle Bane post.

>>82196525
The only thing I recall that might compare is Ungoliant.

>>82196525
I don't think so, but if even Gandalf was afarid to speak about them, they had to be some kind of lovecraftian eldritch horrors on par with Ungoliant. in my headcanon I always imagined them to be of the same kind as Watcher in the Water, but much bigger and more powerful

>>82196755
I always picture them as similiar to the sandworms from dune.

Eyeless, endless, gnawing at the foot of the world without purpose or care. Pure existence without substance.

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>>82191868
>Balrog=Bison

>>82191384
>Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

Oh shit. I'm guessing not but is any more ever said about those things?

>>82198379
see
>>82196755
>>82196679

>>82198379
see
>>82196679
>>82196755
>>82197030
*forgot one anon

>>82191455
Nobody ever gets it right that the Balrogs are supposed to passively absorb all nearby light (except what they make themselves) into a black void around them like a black hole

>>82191212
It's supposed to imply that the fight was incredibly long. Long enough to walk up from the deepest abyss to the highest mountain top.

>>82196185

For you.

>>82198808
Why didn't Gandalf just teleport?

Will there ever be a movie soundtrack that captures the tone and essential themes of the source material like Howard Shores' score for middle-earth?

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>>82199388
eglez wer buzy

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>>82199615
lol what a shit wizard

How impressive is it that Bilbo could let the Ring go on his own free will?

>Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

fuck living in a cave if you're a dwarf. Even a distant possibility of seeing those shits in your home is enough to live in the fucked up stephen fry town

>>82199922
Sam does it too. Probably better to ask, "How much did Frodo suck that he's the only Hobbit to NOT be able to let go of the ring?"

>>82200095
But Sam only had it for like 2 hours

>>82192858
>>82191701
In both the film and the books it's a shadow that gives off the impression of wings.

>>82190560
>it was reborn as Balrog the White
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA KEKED OUT LOUD MY NIGGA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>82195848
>Balrogs used to ride into battle on dragons in the 1st age
Pls give source. I don't doubt you, I just really wanna read about it.

>>82199996
>implying that the Dwarves knew they were there

>>82199996
>Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he

This kind of gets me in the stories. The implication of older, unknown beings that usually turn out to just be corrupted Maiar. Which means that Sauron would be well aware of them as that is what he is too

>>82199736
>>82199615
>LOTR threads are now infected with pepeposting scum
The IQ of this board drops more with each passing day

>>82200288
Ungoliant wasn't a corrupted maiar

>>82200095
The magic, power and manipulation of the ring got stronger the closer he got to mount doom. So while it is impressive that bilbo let the ring go it's would be relatively easy compared to dropping it into the lava. If Frodo never went on the quest he would most likely be able to let go of the ring after having it for equal amount of time.

>>82200351
She's the exception I guess, and Bombadil. Maybe the Ents too?

>>82190689
really makes you think huh

How come both Gandalf and the Balrog weren't killed instantly by impacting the water? Tolkien was a hack

>>82195848
>Bane
?

why is the balrog so angry?
why is he so mean?

How does corruption function in the lotr universe? In Gollums case his life was bound to the ring by its magic and it basically extended his life by stretching out his soul. This is a good explanation. What is the explanation of the corruption of elves into orcs and from maiar to balrogs (or other monsters)?

>>82200351
She was, though.

>>82200605
No, not even Morgoth knew what she was, she just showed up one day going all "I'm going to eat everything I see including you" and Morgoth redirected her to the two Trees so that he wouldn't get eaten and also because fuck you Manwe

>>82199400
Yes. This one from 1972;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Inspired_by_Lord_of_the_Rings_(Bo_Hansson_album)

>>82200605
No. Ungoliant is filed under "Other" in terms of the being of Arda.

>>82200410
Because the Balrog was made of shadow and flame, not just flame. They land in the underworld (not afterlife, but underworld) and the only way Gandalf gets out is following the Balrog up the steps and winding corridors which lead to the mountain top where the Balrog attempts to reignite his body.

As for Gandalf? He didn't die because he was on top of the Balrog and he didn't get hurt as much, plus, you know, an angel.

>>82200468
His friends never contacted him

>>82191205
>after Arda itself ultimately ends after a long time, their spirits will forever die with it
The conversation between Andreth and Finrod suggests that the second song will purify Arda, and Elves will be able to be reunited with men. That's supposedly the mission the race of man have on Arda to begin with.

>>82192895

>I'm not sure sire...but i bet you 5 gold coins its not me

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>>82191069
>>82191041
>>82190689
>>82190595
>>82190392

WE ALL KNOW WHY Gandalf told them that. He was secretly a fighter and wanted all the XP for himself.

>>82201143
I heard you're so fat and ugly nobody would want to fuck you, is that true?

>>82201143
Edit: Thanks for the Gold!

>>82201143
Pretty fun read desu. Makes me want to play a cRPG.

>>82191868
THE BELLRUGS ARE THE MAYORS, GAHD

>>82191384
>>82191410
Yeah but what were the Balrog's tax policies, what rate of interest was Gondor borrowing money from the bank of Erebor at and what did hobbits wipe their arses with? These are the real questions, we need a REAL writer to address them.

>>82191776
So gandalf says but where's the proof? He probably lied about beating it and just washed his clothes

>>82192285
>They would have died with the first hit taken even if they had blocked the strike.

They wouldn't have blocked neither of them wore heavy armour they could have dodged the Balrogs first hit which would smash the bridge and then kill the Balrog in one hit whereas Gandalf said his old ass had to fight it for weeks.

>>82191868
Mayor Balrog and Radagast were good friends

>>82201389
>Mordor proofs chicken

How does /tv/ feel about the Hobbit Trilogy's adaptation of Radagast?

>>82192626
They have actual wings that they fly with in the Silmarillion so it seems likely this one did, fuck knows why it fell down the hole though.

>>82190392
How did Fingolfin manage to solo kill 50 of these guys?

>>82201492
hole was too narrow to spread its wings and also Gandalf was there fighting it

>>82200470
Tolkien changed his mind about the elves into orcs thing and said he thought it was better if orcs were basically beasts given crude intelligence and maybe the first ones were all tortured elves but the rest weren't.

>>82201479
>mad old autist that was sent to Middle Earth on a task but started sperging out about muh animals

Yeah, he was close to canon.

>>82201405
>they could have dodged the Balrogs first hit
>which would smash the bridge
Uhhhhh, so you're saying they would dodge an attack from a giant monster using giant weapons while standing on a narrow bridge.

And which way would they dodge during that fateful downward strike that you suggest would break the bridge?
Do they go left into the pit?
Right into the pit?
Or do they jump backwards and get hit because his weapon is huge?

>>82200258
The Silmarillion fool

>>82201606
Dodge toward the Balrog and then cut it's guts out.

>/v/irgins ruining another thread

HUR DUR XP LOL AM I RIGHT GUISE xD

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>>82201620

>>82200383
Ents were created by Eru for Yavanna to protect the trees.

What do you Tolkien think of Shadow of Mordor?

>>82201620
>Dodge forward
>Balrog breaks the bridge
Good job, you didn't jump into the pit, you just fall in, and your sword does nothing.

Balrog rolls D20+15 vs your 13AC and hits for 5d10 vs your 12HP.

What was Melkor's beef, anyway?

>>82200470
All corruption is at heart Melkor's fault

>>82201739
hes probably pissed it was sued by assassins creed
also fuck gaYmers for faggin up this cool guy thread

>>82201761
wanted daddy's attention

>>82201749
Just dodge forward and cut the balrogs guts out. If some old as fuck guy can cut it's horn off in one hit Aragon or Boromir can wreck it in one hit. I'll be honest I don't know what your last line of autism was about tho.

>>82201803
good bait

>>82201143
what in the fuck

>>82201761
Completely literally: Did not play well with others.

When the primodal spirits of the Vala were orchestrated into a symphony by Eru Illuventar before the making of the world, Melkor busted out in the middle of the jam session with a squealing guitar solo.

>>82201850
Not an argument lad.

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>>82195848
I do not think Sauron could do that.
All we know is that Gandalf believed in the possibility of an alliance between Sauron and Smaug.
and about the OP question, no, the Durin's Bane was the last balrog on middle earth. Tolkien say that in one of his letters.

>>82201538
Did he? Wasn't it Hurin (or Huor) killed 50 trolls and Feanor fought of all the balrogs but died of his wounds and Fingolfin fought Morgoth and cut his foot off?

>>82201850
Not really. He's been saying the same thing the whole thread.
He seems frustrated that everybody's moved on.

>>82201856
wasnt it this disharmony that spawned Ungoliant and all that other weird shit?

>>82201803
>When the b8 so weak you have to go all out with it

>>82191701
the wings are vestigial, they're just there to look cool

>>82201856
Why would Eru Illuvatar make a Valar for the sole purpose of fucking everyone elses' shit up?

>>82201922
>Gandalf says swords are no more use here
>beats shit out of Balrog with his sword but it takes weeks
>Aragon or Boromir could have killed it in one hit

Aragon even has a magic sword thing that we know is sharp as fuck because it slit Boromirs hand earlier in the film.

are orcs just black elfs?

>>82201961
>Why would Eru Illuvatar make a Valar for the sole purpose of fucking everyone elses' shit up?

that's an extremely complex question to be answered in a tolkien lore thread on a mongolian basket-weaving forum. You're basically bringing up the question of theodicy, "why does an omnipotent and benevolent God allow evil to exist?"

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>>82202005
one theory, the one put forward in the Silmarillion, is that they are captured Avari elves who were brutally tortured and magically transformed

>>82201911
Well, again, this was before the making of the world, and if you read carefully, you can almost interpret the entire history of the first age in how they describe the music they play.

So in essence, the entire world is just an extended encore of that original music, hence why music is the most powerful magic in LotR.

As for Ungoliant and the "other" creatures. Given that they aren't connected to even the Vala (including Melkor), this suggests that they are not creations of Eru (why would he create things like that, after all?)

My thought is this: On christian mythology, there are two sources of evil, traditionally. Satan and the absence of God. I would apply that thinking here.

>>82202088
Its a natural question to ask desu

>>82200410
Balrog was a giant parachute, plus Gandalf probably could fire his staff like a landing thruster to slow his descent.

>>82201961
Because the true purpose of the world is the manufacturing of human souls.
This process is overseen by the Vala and Maia, as well as the lesser servants, the Eldar.

Its a "mystery" where human souls depart to when they die, however, before they do, Eru Illuventar inserted a malefactor into the world so that there would be eternal conflict to enrich the quality of human souls before they leave the world.

Because in truth, god only created the world to provide himself with an infinite source of enriched souls to devour.

>>82200288
Weren't some orcs probably corrupted Maia because they kept getting killed and resurrected?

>>82202191
i mean like theyre nigger elves right?

>"You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."
>Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.

At the end of the Third Age, are there any elves left alive who are so old as to have been there from the very beginning, from the first awakening of the elves in Arda?

>>82202259
>Its a natural question to ask

i'm not shitting on the question, i'm just saying you're not likely to get a complete enough answer within the character limit here.

it's a fundamentally important for christian theology and ropes in a whole bunch of philosophical baggage including the nature of free will and living in a deterministic universe. Probably more importantly, Tolkien doesn't spend a ton of time directly addressing theodicy himself beyond the usual "muh free will" so we're left to speculate on what his thoughts might be as a Catholic, and I don't like to put words in his mouth.

The short answer might just be "because God wants to allow free will," as incredibly unsatisfying of an explanation as that is.

>>82202547
Cirdan I think, but I'm not sure

>>82202547
Plenty. Of the original generation of elves, all the ones who went to the undying lands and never returned to middle earth would be alive unless killed by accident or Noldor kinslaying.

>>82202547
just off the top of my head Galadriel's pretty damn close, she lived in Valinor before the whole Silmaril business kicked off

>>82202634
Oh, and Melkor. He killed a bunch too.

>>82202634
But he asked about Middle Earth, not Undying Lands

Feanor was right

>>82202728
>>82202634

Oh, he didnt, fuck, Im sorry

>>82202430
>>82202604

relevant:

"""
And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: ‘Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.’

Then Ulmo answered: ‘Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!’ And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.
"""

again, not terribly satisfying but there you have it

>>82201143
I don't know what bothers me more: this retard 'le ebin nerd culture' shit or the fact I get so incredibly butthurt about it.

>>82201803
Their swords would just rake across him and probably come away partially melted without leaving a mark. Trying a thrust would probably do as good as pushing a thin candle stick against a hot stove.

>>82202757
All fucking Noldor must fucking hang

>>82200740
She is the manifestation of the void on earth, iirc. I guess that means she is a kind of spirit that Eru could not keep out of his creation, and so she rampaged around the early stages of the earth devouring whatever bits of beauty that she could.

>>82202834
Thats actually fucking beautiful

When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador! There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted – because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.

>A chance-meeting

So Gandalf knew how everything would unfold, right?

>>82202834
>Wow being tortured to death and having my home destroyed by Melkor really puts these snowflakes in a more flattering light!
Y-you too, Eru Illuvatar

>>82202634
>unless killed by accident or Noldor kinslaying.

yeah but let's face it, between Kinslaying 1 2 and 3, plus multiple wars against Melkor then Sauron then Dwarves, we're not exactly running short on dead elves from the first few Ages

>>82203044
Just how many elves died in the Kinslaying? Were they full-on genocides?

>>82201952
>the wings are vestigial
well i guess you can say he didnt fly so good

>>82202938
Don't curse his name too loudly bitchboi, because if Feanor didn't bring the Noldor to Middle-Earth Morgoth would have dicked over mankind with literally no opposition forever while the elves and Valar sat pretty in the Undying Lands not giving a shit

>>82203028
Wizards do not have "chance meetings," they go precisely where they mean to, at the precise time in which they are needed

>>82203031
you weren't there, man. those snowflakes were beautiful as fuck

>>82203081
there were multiple Kinslayings, all involving Noldor and all perpetrated over jealousy of the Silmarils. None of them were full on genocide and Tolkien doesn't spend a lot of time discussion exact casualty statistics, but shitloads of Teleri died in the first one, even more elves died when Doriath fell in Kinslaying 2 Electric Boogaloo, and even MORE died when some other important elf place I can't remember got destroyed in Kinslay Hard With a Vengeance

That's not even getting into the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, wherein the Noldor got utterly crushed by Melkor and scattered to the corners of Middle-earth

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Psst

Why didn't Glamdring shine blue in Moria aswell?

>>82203114
Why would Gandalf cut a Balrog's horn off before knocking him down a chasm?

>>82203362
Blame Hackson.

> No gleam came from the blades of Sting or of Glamdring; and that was some comfort, for being the work of Elvish smiths in the Elder Days these swords shone with a cold light, if any Orcs were near at hand.

>Another harsh horn-call and shrill cries rang out. Feet were coming down the corridor. There was a ring and clatter as the Company drew their swords. Glamdring shone with a pale light, and Sting glinted at the edges.

>>82203331
>Battle of Unnumbered Tears
You mean this battle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3OHSm3i0js

>>82203331
actually on second thought I'm pretty sure Doriath WAS full-on genocide

why doesnt gandalf use the words of power?
in all the movies hes in he doesnt even once let out a simple fus roh dah

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what happens here

>>82201236
That must be why I have a GF and I'm not a virgin.

>>82203981
middle earth looks like turkroach land, no wonder they have so many orcs

>>82203981
where's the rest of the world? are tolkien's heirs not releasing the map until someone pays for the rights?

>>82204154
the rest of the maps are from elder scrolls
like morrowind and skyrim

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>>82204154
Here you go.

>>82204210
which ones merica?

>>82204241
>inb4 "The swirling hole in the middle"

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>>82204210
that's a big whirlpool

>>82204210
so like theyre like turds in a giant flushing toilet
sweet

>>82190894
>Christian mythology

Subtle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUrJdsN_-B0

>>82203549
Happens in the book on one occasion, but not in the movie.

Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. ‘What happened away up there at the door?’ he asked. ‘Did you meet the beater of the drums?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf. ‘But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.
‘As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghâsh: that is “fire”. Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
‘What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.

>>82204210
So is Northrend where the first Men originated from, before the elves tried genociding their first settlements due to a fear of being out-populated?

>>82204414
I really like the imagery of the Balrog being roughly man-sized, more of a dark wizard than a giant Taurus Demon

>>82204456
no, it's where Arthas went to try and stop the Scourge before getting corrupted himself

You can really tell Tolkien was running out of ideas there by the end. sad!

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>>82204154
There are other continents that were made after Numenor's downfall, when Eru made the flat world a sphere.

Those are the Land of the Sun (America), and the Dark Land (hyarmenor on my map, sources are unclear whether or not this is Antartica, Australia, or both).

There isn't much written about this, I think the only details are in one of those "The History of Middle-Earth" books published by Christopher. The Silmarillion mentions new lands being formed after Numenor, but it doesn't name them or describe them, afaik.

>>82204456
Northrend is where men originated from. Men came from a race of giant men called the vrykul. But it wasn't the elves that wanted to kill men when they began to expand. It was the ancestors of the elves, trolls.

>>82204584
Is middle earth the only place humans live

>>82204210
>>82204210
>>82204210
This is a Warcraft map please kill thineself

>>82204623
there are Men in Harad at the very least.

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>>82204584
yeah found the full map of round arda
>dark land is africa
he had some humor in him

>>82204623
They tried to migrate en masse to the land of the Vala once, but an elf named Fintrumphor built a huge wall and all their dingies sank.

>>82204645
WHAT! I'VE BEEN HAD!

I like the exchanges between the Witch King and Gandalf, and the Witch King and Eowyn, more in the books than I do the movie, but holy fuck the Witch King's actor nailed his lines so perfectly I can't help but like them anyway

>Do you not know DEATH when you see it, OLD MAN? This is MY HOUR!

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>>82204701
>Fintrumphor

>>82204701
A wall you say?

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>>82190894
>Saurons and Sarumans spirits did survive, but they were denied to ever re-enter Valinor and were left to be wandering Middle Earth untill the end of times
I don't know about that. Saruman certainly was rendered mortal when Gandalf overthrew him, but Sauron is a completely different case. He put so much of himself in that Ring that when it was destroyed, he was broken apart. I need to re-read the book, I can't remember if it said there, or if Tolkien himself had said it, but Sauron was essentially rendered little more than a creeping shadow of malice across Middle-earth, incapable of taking any form and having any sort of identity.

For the price of power, he risked his very being. And it ultimately backfired.

>>82204646
Geeze, so the Harads travelled a long way for the war of the ring

Was the Witch-King actually physically invincible when fighting dudes, or was that just him misinterpreting a prophecy that said that he'd be killed by a woman?

>>82191410
how could the endless stair be lost if they knew where it came out of the mountain: i.e. the summit

>>82204809
they're literal sandniggers

>>82204809
Sauron promised them access to unlimited fresh water IIRC, and they lived in Saudi Arabia

>>82204623
The humans spawned somewhere between Mordor and hither lands, on >>82204584's map. We know humans lived south in Harad and East in Romen, or whatever it would be called (not sure if Romen is a canonical name).

Since America was made only after the second age, this coincides with modern theories of north-east asian paleolithic crossing Bering detroit to go to Alaska around 20000-30000 years ago (2017 science may have a different estimate, my knowledge of this goes back to 2013)

So, yeah, since there are natives to our real life american continent, Tolkien humans eventually went there. We think of Tolkien's stories as part of the fantasy genre, but they are also mythological, Tolkien wanted to build a fictional mythology for Europe and specifically England, and I even heard of an extended age system (beyond the 4th age after the war of the ring) in which we would today be living in the 11th age or something like that (the 10th ending after Hitler's death in 1945), but I think that idea was redacted eventually.

iirc, in the Fellowship of the Ring preface he says hobbits still live in England, although very well hidden.

>>82204657
This map is confusing, because back when Aman was still in the physical world, the world wasn't round, and I don't think the Dark land existed. I'm pretty sure they came to be after Numenor, although they might be the southern half of broken Almaren. Lots of gray area regarding the world geography.

>>82204835
no one would climb up the mountain to find out if the tower on top is real, you imagine people with medieval technology climbing K2?

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What would have been Saurons tax policy once he conquered middle earth?

>>82204897
New research is suggesting that humans may have first crossed the land bridge to North America over 115,000 years ago. However, this is recent research and certainly needs more data to prove the hypothesis.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/26/525628056/new-evidence-suggests-humans-arrived-in-the-americas-far-earlier-than-thought

I love you Tolkienfags

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>>82191410
As a kid, I always imagined that after falling into the depths with the balrog and through the lake, they had fallen so deep into the earth that they ended up in another realm, like fallen out of midgard (middle earth) into another world, and that's where the mountain peak was.

seems kinda weird to picture them just climbing a staircase for 6 days.

>>82201761
Every band has a Ringo.

>>82205073
Much more reasonable than Aragorn's that's for damn sure.

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>>82205015

>medieval technology
>dwarves carving out mountains the size of city-states
>minas tirith, built by humans, existing
>giant eagles existing
>magic existing
>hurr durr no one can climb a mountain silly

c'mon now

>>82205107
Interesting. Hard to believe these would be homo sapiens though, probably some advanced homo erectus.

>>82205176
It was a really long staircase and they occasionally had to take breaks to rest their quads

>>82205273
they just didn't. no one gave a shit about that anymore, everyone had better things to do than to travel a dangerous journey to a long abandoned city to look for some legendary staircase. Balins expedition started looking for it, but they were wiped out before they found it

>>82205286
why is that hard to believe?

What is the best monologue from the films?

>>82205286
Yeah, I certainly do not find it likely that they were homo sapiens. Though in the (semi) context of a LoTR thread, I do find it an appealing idea that these early proto homo sapiens/erectus crossed the land bridge into a continent full of giant animals. Multi ton ground sloths and so on must've been a pretty amazing site to see, and given that those types of mega fauna only disappeared about 10,000 years ago they must've lived with them for a long fucking time.

Nothing is more disappointing to me about our natural world today than the fact that we've no real mega fauna other than Elephants, Rhinos, and a couple other species. It'd be pretty fucking bitchin' to have a pet giant cat.

>>82205533
I AM NO MAN

>>82205286
they had to be homo sapiens since indians were homo sapiens, populations don't evolve twice into the same species in two different places

>>82204827
Forget the woman thing, that's a misunderstanding spread by the movie, and even the book.

The big deal here is the dagger Merry stabbed him with, that's what made him "killable". It was a magic dagger from Numenor.

The Witch King used to be human. As opposed to elves and dwarves, when humans die, their spirits leave the world, and no one knows where they go. What Sauron did to the 9 kings he gave rings to is bound their spirits, so he can control them and keep them in the world. That's what he means when he says no man can kill him. He's saying the humans don't have any means that would release him from Sauron's control and finally free his spirit, except Merry does. In the book I think Aragorn gives him this dagger, or they find it in some old Arnor tomb they explore between the Shire and Rivendell, I don't remember. In the movies though, I think these daggers are given as gifts by Galadriel, and are said to be daggers of the Noldorin, presumably forged in Lindon in Gil-Galad days.

I think the movie could have made it more clear that Merry's dagger was the game changer in his death, and not Eowyn being a woman, but eh.

These lord of the rings posts are so comfy

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>>82205533

>>82205533
gollum talking to smeagol is dialogue and monologue AT THE SAME TIME

>>82205487
Homo sapiens appeared around that date in Africa, and stayed there for a while, arriving in Europe only around ~70k years ago. I doubt he could spread across all the Middle-East and to North Asia that fast, and if it did, there would be much earlier traces of him in the warmer asian regions, which were always easier to live in than north-east asia and siberia anyway.

Erectus was in Asia much earlier, though.

>>82205560
I could see this first migration wave going extinct, and then homo sapiens coming again 100k years later. I read the article quickly, but I think they point to something like that.

So does the ring just amplify the innate abilities of the wearer? Sneaky Hobbits become literally invisible, witchy elf becomes a demigod-like sorcerer, powerful Sauron becomes extra powerful?

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>>82204827
it was a misinterpreted prophecy, Macbeth style. some elf prophecised thet he wouldn't be killed by a man, everyone assumed it meant that he was impossible to be killed by a human, turned out ironic

>>82205596
Funny how Merry, being a human, will never see any of that.

Was this confrontation done justice in the movies, /tv/?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44kBN340vd4

>>82205740
>I could see this first migration wave going extinct, and then homo sapiens coming again 100k years later. I read the article quickly, but I think they point to something like that.
ah, that makes sense, I only read the headline

>>82205757
That's exactly how it works. If Gandalf or Galadriel were to put it on, they would become gods.

>>82205772
>hobbits
>human

>>82205815
What would happen if other people wore it?

>>82205852
It would be extremely painful.

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>>82205773
Yes. They pretty much nailed it.

>>82205875
Would they become huge guys?

>>82205902
T B H having the whip and sword be made out of fire is cooler than having them be normal weapons

>>82205757
no, everyone would turn invisible if they put it on because it transported you to the spirit realm unless you could control it. amplifying abilities means something else, it gives you (or at least tempts you with0 your greaatest desires. thats why for soldier Boromir it was a weapon, for Queen Galadriel a means of preserving her kingdom, and for Sam the gardener it gave him visions of turning Mordor into a bigass garden, you get the idea. it is and gives you what you desire

>>82205757
No, that's a D&D tier meme and it needs to stop.

The ring doesn't turn you invisible, it shifts you to the spirit plane, where Nazguls exist against their will (human spirits aren't supposed to linger the world).

If you are an elf, man or dwarf, you appear to become invisible.

If Gandalf or Sauron put the ring, nothing changes, because they exist in both planes, they are ainurs, and them putting up physical appearances is just a tool to better handle the world and interact with the children of iluvatar (elves, humans, which cannot escape the physical). Bodies are to them what clothes are to us, and their real appearance is basically an orb of light and thought. Some maiar are more restricted than others in what they can wear, though. Melkor was locked in his evil twisted shape, and Sauron too, eventually. Wizards like Gandalf and Saruman aren't their full selves when they are on middle-earth, and they don't know all that they usually do either, they are like programmed for their missions before leaving, and their true maia life is like a very distant memory. Their passage on Middle-Earth is like a dream, it makes sense but there is that unexplainable weirdness to it.

why didnt they just fly the ring into outer space and let it get lost in the cosmic unknown?
i thought these guys were supposed to be smart

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>>82201987
Power Levels of the Fellowship
>Gandalf
>POW
>ER
>GAP
>Aragorn
>Boromir
>Legolas
>Gimli
>Sam
>Frodo
>Merry
>Pippin

>>82205815
>That's exactly how it works. If Gandalf or Galadriel were to put it on, they would become gods.
Wrong, see >>82205957

>>82205815
Hobbits and modern humans are both descended from the same early human race, yes.

>>82190894
Didn't Sauron "follow the same ruinous path" as Morgoth into the Void?

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>>82205772
>>82205815
Even if hobbits are human, they would still see it iirc, since when men die, they still go to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, just to a separate room, or separate section of it, or something like that, where they stay briefly before passing out of the world into the void with Eru. That's how Beren was able to come back when Luthien plead to Mandos.

>>82205985
When they were counting orc kills Gimli beat Legolas in the books iirc

>>82206023
Really? I don't remember that.

>There are faggots who unironically don't understand what the ring is
It's ideology, plain and simple. The book describes the ring as "small and perfect". These two words are very important.
The non-vulgar definition of perfection is "something that is pure act". Everything in the universe either is - act - or can be - potency. For example, you are alive in act and dead in potency. The ring being perfect means that it can't be anything else.

Now, notice how everyone in possession of The Ring wants to twist the world into something that they deem the right thing? Galadriel wants to make Lothlorien beautiful and ever-lasting, Boromir wants to use The Ring as a weapon and Sam wants to make Mordor into a garden (kek).

The temptation of the One Ring is that it is a simple explanation for the world. A "small" and "perfect" definition of the reality. It's a critique of all the ideologies popping and trying to simplify the complexities of the world in simple terms and damned be the consequences and those who get in the way.
>Weapon for the warrior
>Kingdom for the queen
>Garden for the gardener

Frodo is resistant to The Ring because he is complacent and has no idealisms or desire to change the world. So is Sam and the rest of the Hobbits. It's not a simple lack of ambition, but rather an acceptance of reality instead of the will to oversimplify the world and force things to fit.

As a catholic, Tolkien drew inspiration from Chesterton and Orthodoxy is a notable inspiration for the concepts in the book. In the first chapter of the book, Chesterton openly discusses that madness is basically reasoning within a small amount of information and locking yourself away from the everything else until the point where you can't accept that these things exist and you alienate yourself from the rest of the world. Much like the One Ring, you get consumed by your delusion

t. Free-time philosophy reader

>>82202296
>plus Gandalf probably could fire his staff like a landing thruster to slow his descent.
The Balrog sundered his staff with his sword.

How many anons in this thread have gotten laid?

>ARISE, ARISE, RIDERS OF THEODEN

>>82206029
I have no memory of this happening in the books. Book Gimli is this very stoical and formal warrior who has like 40 lines in the whole trilogy, most of them going on about how Helm's Deep caverns are wonderful and how Legolas needs to visit them with him.

The movies made him be the comic relief because Hollywood.

>>82206063
>The non-vulgar definition of perfection is "something that is pure act".
seriously is there anything this ring can't do

>>82206075
i fucked youre mom

>>82201538
Balrogs were retconned. The Fall of Gondolin was one of the first things tolkien wrote about, well before tLOTR. In it, there was hundreds if not thousands of "balrogs" that attacked the city and they were easy to kill. For instance, Glorfindel killed one by tackling one of an edge of a cliff, yet Gandalf had to fight durins bane for 3 days after falling off a much higher ledge

Only after tolkien came back to it after tLOTR, he changed the numbers so there was far less balrogs but they were stronger. So theres still inconsistencies through the texts about how many there was.

>>82206253
>Glorfindel
probably one of the stupidest names ive heard so far in this franchise

>>82206319
no u

>>82205560
there was a lot of migrations over time. it's very likely each new migration bred with the last and now we have natives

>>82206357
MORE LIKE BLORFINDEL

How would an actual medieval war strategist feel about this scene?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmTz7EAYLrs

Why is it that LOTR threads are always so civil and comfy regardless of what board they're on?

>>82195848
>Sauron
>recruiting Durin's Big Guy
At most they could have brokered an alliance between them (and Sauronman), but they were spirits of the same order, I doubt the Balrog would have gladly worked under a ring-less Sauron.

>>82206456
kids and young teenagers don't post in them because those faggots unironically think that lotr is lame

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>>82206319
>he doesn't know about Ghân-buri-Ghân

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>>82206056
I know it's just a wiki link, I don't really feel like spending 15 minutes looking through the Silmarillion or an hour through the History of Middle Earth to find the text source of it, but it says here that men go to a different hall to be judged before leaving Arda

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Halls_of_Mandos

>>82206480
Sauron was the most powerful maia though and he used to be Morgoths right hand, so he already commanded his armies in the past, propably including Balrogs as well.

>>82206456
why are you always a faggot that ruins threads?

>>82206410
Polish heavy calvary did this kind of shit all the time. Generally not in such numbers but certainly in similar strategic situations.

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>>82206456
The memelords eventually tire out because they are given verbose and serious answers to their questions. By 150+ posts, the thread feels like pic related.

>>82206590
>Ghân-buri-Ghân
glorfindel still sounds much much stupider

How did Hobbits evolve from humans? The book says their origin lays in the Elder Days, before the Second Age, but Men awoke only 590 years before the end of the First Age, so Hobbits had around six centuries or so to evolve into their manlet bodies.

How?

>>82206600
Did Polish heavy calvary trick the sun into rising in the West as well?

>>82206596
He wasn't the most powerful, just the best talker

>>82206319
>hating on the Glorfster

get a load of this guy

>>82206653
Yeah, generally I think so. I believe they commonly got so drunk the night before that it was of no consequence whether they tricked the sun or the sun tricked them.

>>82206600
How come their horses didn't get skewered on enemy pikes?

>>82206650
A wizard did it

>>82196755
2spooky

>>82206679
his. name. is. dumb.
>HI MY NAME IS GLORFINDEL, CALL ME GLORF FOR SHORT H'H'YUCK

>>82206456
>>82206528
>>82206638
>Tips trilby he mistakenly thinks is a fedora

>>82205286
Most Native American creation myths say they spawned from the Earth.

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>>82206700
they had longer pikes than infrantry and were breaking infrantrys formation with firearms wheen they were charging

>>82206650
Who knows.. they are first mentionned living beside the Anduin river (the one they reach at the end of the first movie) in stone houses I think, like normal northmen of that region at the time, and after a while some of them crossed the Misty Mountains and settled in the Shire. They used to be taller I think. The Fallowhide, a subrace of hobbits, even passed for elves at times, because of their slim build and pale skin or something. It's all in the FOTR prologue, I don't remember it that well.

There is another subrace of humans not mentionned or seen in the movies that live between Rohan and Gondor in the woods beside the White Mountains, and they are basically the fat citizens in Super Mario Sunshine.

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Alright fuck it I haven't read these books for 15 years, gonna start now. This is the version I'll be reading.

>>82205466
But what about their dubs?

>>82206029
Is this /lit/?
I get it though. The one thing I didn't like about Jackson's LotR was turning Gimli into a jobber for Legoland.

>>82206319
The sport "Golf" came to middle earth after Bandobras Took knocked the head off the goblin chieftain Golfimbul with a wooden club, which then landed in a hole.

>>82206753
It's a great name. What's wrong with you?

>>82206698
I know nothing about Polish Medieval strategy but this sounds legit.

Reminder that Cirdan was B A S E D and one of the most honorable and dedicated lads to ever grace Arda

>>82206837
But then why didn't the infantry get even longer pikes?

Reminder that the Silmarillion is Elven propaganda, and that Tar-Mairon did nothing wrong.

GAS THE TELERI RACE WAR NOW

MANWE LIED, BOATFUCKERS DIED

ALQUALONDE WAS AN INSIDE JOB

>tfw coming too late to a lotr lorethread

What segments of the Silmarilion are filmable? In my opinion -

>Beren and Luthien
>Tuor - talking to Ulmo and adventuring
>Tuor - Fall of Gondolin
>Ar-Pharazon and the demise of Numenor

All men-centric. Elves are hard because I feel you would need to do a Feanor a film to set it up but then the power levels are ridiculous and the geography and mythology completely alien to the average viewer.

>>82207979
Silmarillion would only work as an animated series with great art direction imo, movie would be too short and lack proper setup, also it woulld be really hard to do all the required special effects

>>82208120
This desu. There's no way it could work as anything else, it'd be too disjointed and vast in scale.