Does a piece of art or artist actively aspiring to be great or

You can tryhard and be good, but with some things trying hard can put you at a disadvantage. I don't think trying hard invalidates a work. Because movies and TV exist to make money, none of it exists in a state of complete sincerity. It still has artistic merit, however.

Harder to say when someone has tried too hard, though.

>>81886270
This may be the only response I get and I want to thank you for it and for voicing your opinion, thank you.
You're right that more that any other artistic medium film and TV are probably the most geared toward making money.
Music, painting, drawing, writing, are all generally seen as ways to express yourself, but not filmmaking.
>Harder to say when someone has tried too hard, though.
I haven't seen The Room, but from my understanding it wasn't the idea or the script that was the biggest problem, but the acting and execution. I wonder if it could've been considered good had the execution been better or if it was inherently tryhard.

>>81886641
Yeah, it doesn't sound like Wiseau didn't work hard enough, he just didn't really know what he was doing and/or he's crazy.

I don't think Nolan is a tryhard and I really enjoy his work, though I understand why he's become a meme director. I think he and his brother have written some great work and they understand how to write something well and translate it to the screen. The Dark Knight isn't great because of Ledger (though he was great), the story is well written and hits the bright beats at the right times.

I forgot where I was going with this. But lasting work, the kind that really reaches people on a deeper level is the result of someone sincerely wanting to reflect a piece of truth back to us from whatever medium is being used. It's why capeshit has artistic merit, but the way Marvel and DC do it, it will be a long time before it will reach its potential. If ever.

(PS I think Interstellar read a lot better on paper than it did in the movie. Still a good movie though)

>>81887035
>I don't think Nolan is a tryhard
I don't know if I consider him to be, but it seems to be a widely held sentiment, at least on this board.
>lasting work, the kind that really reaches people on a deeper level is the result of someone sincerely wanting to reflect a piece of truth back to us from whatever medium is being used. It's why capeshit has artistic merit
Just to make sure I get what you're saying, you think superheroes movies have artistic merit because screenwriters or directors are still trying to get a message across? Reflect a piece of truth, I'm a bit confused.
>it will be a long time before it will reach its potential. If ever.
I feel like Logan, Guardians of the Galaxy, Winter Soldier, and Ant-Man all transcend the genre in a way. I couldn't tell you why, the movies just feel different to me.
And people often bring up the first Iron Man movie, but I barely remember it at this point.

>>81887343
Yeah I'm rambling a bit, sorry.

I think capeshit can reflect back truths about human existence. They're just current day mythological stories. But, the way studio executives 'planned out' BvS and their 'universe', it's about money first and foremost.

I did think of Logan after I sent my initial message. It was pretty good. But the only 'Marvel Studios' movie that has any worth, in my opinion, is the first Iron Man and it's not even that good. After that, they became obsessed with what movie they're going to make in the future, and not the story in front of them. They certainly have their high points, but as I've seen people say on here, they're entirely forgettable. I saw Winter Soldier because of the hype, and I was floored by how underwhelming it was. And then I saw Civil War because I thought they were going to kill Cap and that we'd see real stakes in these movies from here on out, and I was again floored by how underwhelming it all felt. The shallowness of the airport scene was hard to watch.

Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 have great stories, especially 2. There's approximately 0% chance you'll see that repeated in Homecoming later this year.

I sound pretentious as hell right now, but it's borne of bitterness. Those Spider-Man movies literally changed my life, they set me out doing things in college I never would have had the bravery to do before. And to see what we have now creates a lot of resentment.

>>81887663
>The shallowness of the airport scene was hard to watch.
It was just a fun fight scene, it wasn't meant to be anything more than that.
>I saw Winter Soldier because of the hype, and I was floored by how underwhelming it was.
I mean, It's been a while so it's very possible I could be off, but it was amazing when I saw it.
I really wish I could explain why I think Ant-Man is so good, I don't get it at all.
>Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 have great stories, especially 2.
I almost considered mentioning Spider-Man 2, but I felt like it was too obvious.
>I sound pretentious as hell right now, but it's borne of bitterness.
I could go on all day about the contempt I hold for Homecoming and it hasn't even come out yet.
The first Raimi movie came out when I was three so I really have been a lifelong Spider-Man fan, the character means a lot to me, and seeing him butchered so badly with an almost perfect cast is really fucking me up.
I feel like Homecoming is going to be so much worse than I expect it to be too.

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You can be a tryhard, but you have to be careful about letting that show through in the finished work or it will seem masturbatory and pretentious.

>>81885952
everyone is trying hard.
you would know that if you ever talked to anyone besides your mom or tried to create something yourself.


what youre talking about is being contrived. and contrived art definitely invalidates itself

>>81885952
>actively aspiring to be great or meaningful immediately invalidate any artistic merit
No, simply because aspiring doesn't necessarily mean it will fail in achieving its goal. The reason why so many movies like that fail is because they aren't genuine.

>>81887981
I'd like to be 'fair' to Homecoming, but I know I won't see it. And it has something of the feel of BvS where you know studio execs wanted to make it a perfect money maker, but they don't care about the right things, and so it'll be a disaster.

>>81888051
In third grade, I used to love writing short stories in English class. People used to laugh pretty hard at them and so one day, I decided I was really going to kill it and give them the funniest damn story ever. Well, I tried really hard, and it SUCKED. Nobody laughed and if I had the presence of mind I probably would have gone home and killed myself from embarrassment. The next time I wrote a story and didn't care about whether or not it was funny, it got a lot of laughs. This is a long and indirect way of saying you are right.

>>81888051
How do you be careful about it?
Is your screenshot from Legion?

>>81888125
'trying hard' is different from being 'a tryhard', the latter has the connotation you give to 'contrived art' but if you want to be technical about it, all art is 'contrived' in one way or another

>>81888178
>>81888105
that was for this guy

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>>81885952
He's an odd fellow but I must say he steams a good ham

>>81888125
How can you actively aspire for greatness and be genuine? Do you have any examples?

>>81888159
It's from the Fargo season premiere. I liked the episode and it's not a good example of what I'm saying, but I had the image handy.

Also the throat singing part did make me furrow my brow a little, but I was high, so maybe it was fine.

>>81888261
I've been meaning to get into Fargo, I hated the movie.

>>81888146
I know I'm gonna see it and I'm gonna hate every minute of it.
> And it has something of the feel of BvS where you know studio execs wanted to make it a perfect money maker, but they don't care about the right things, and so it'll be a disaster.
they turned Peter into Miles Morales.

>>81888178
I think if you're a professional artist of any kid youre a try hard out of necessity. I think there is a difference between having a clear reason for making art and contrived art, though.

art: im going to photograph protests because its interesting content


contrived art: photos of these protests are getting lots of attention, i should go take pictures at the next one.


thats just how i see it. both are "trying" to make art
not all photography is art, it was just a simple example

>>81888287
>I hated the movie
THE MOVIE IS A MASTERPIECE

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>>81885952
Art without meaning isn't art. But making art for the sole purpose of showing off isn't art either, it's egoism. Art is about honestly trying to make something meaningful that expresses yourself. It's a fine balance

>>81888146
>In third grade, I used to love writing short stories in English class. People used to laugh pretty hard at them and so one day, I decided I was really going to kill it and give them the funniest damn story ever. Well, I tried really hard, and it SUCKED. Nobody laughed and if I had the presence of mind I probably would have gone home and killed myself from embarrassment. The next time I wrote a story and didn't care about whether or not it was funny, it got a lot of laughs. This is a long and indirect way of saying you are right.

THIS is what I was trying to ask with this thread. Trying too hard to create good art often leads to bad art, so where's the distinction? Is trying too hard to create art a bad thing, or is there a perfect balance? When do you know you're doing too much?

Kubrick did all kinds of autistic overly complicated shit in his films and is generally considered a genius.

>>81888399
So contrived art is art made without genuine interest, like the last few seasons of It's Always Sunny.

This is starting to sound like the Dishonest Filmmaking copypasta.

>>81888653
i might be jaded but i think pretty much anything for film or television is contrived, just at different levels. that doesnt mean it cant be good though.

>>81888531
I started watching Samurai Jack (from season one) and it's kind of interesting, but the show comes off as trying too hard to be deep and sophisticated.

And then I watched an episode of the original Powerpuff Girls and found it to be a lot more meaningful and artistic than Samurai Jack.
Powerpuff Girls obviously has a lot of specific stylistic choices, but none of them feel like they were added to make the show seem more valid.

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>>81888703
>this post

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>>81888878
(you)

>>81888554
I think the artist's intent matters (especially if it can be felt in the final product)
Does the artist have a vision? Are they coming from a place of sincerity as you put it?
Or did an executive say "hey we need something that will be perceived as art. We need something that will seem 'high quality' because that will be good for business."
I think we'll start to see more of the latter with some of the newer platforms data mining to find out what different demographics want to watch. That's basically what Netflix has been doing and a lot of their 'high quality' shows feel like manufactured products. Because they are.

>>81888954
I'm so white girl's step dad? What an insult.

>>81885952
aspiring to be good != try-hard
being ambitious has nothing to do with "trying too hard"

a try hard tries hard but ultimately fails
and by that I mean they are aspiring to do something that they are incappable of doing in the first place
it's when what they're trying say is overshadowed by the need to say it, most of the time they don't even know what they are trying to say to begin with
when the meaning or artistic merit takes a back seat to the artist's ego
in his efforts to say something meaningful (anything) the try-hard has forgotten what he was trying to say, or just doesn't care, either because of incompetence, lack of talent or vision, and is left with a whole lot of nothing that expresses nothing, or relates to anything
it ends up being soulless and empty

zach snyder is a good example of a try-hard filmmaker
nolan is not
while nolan doesn't make the most philosophical deep films, he executes what he intends
I think intent is important when considering whether something ends up "trying too hard", or rather pretentious

anyway
I feel that people who put down nolan for "trying too hard", ironically are the ones "trying too hard" to seem sophisticated or patrician

>>81889055
>That's basically what Netflix has been doing and a lot of their 'high quality' shows feel like manufactured products
including House of Cards? I think it was based off data mining, but from what I've seen (I'm pretty far behind) it feels pretty genuine.

Wtf, this is like the most intelligent discussion I've ever seen in /tv/. I'm too drunk to contribute to the topic in any way, but srsly, we need more people like you. Good thread.

Still love baneposting though

>>81888703
You didn't explain anything.

>>81889338
Nah house of cards was good. It did seem pretty genuine to me too.

>>81889367
I didn't expect to get any replies, I guess I made it around the right time.
>Still love baneposting though
I wish I still loved it.

>>81889408
I'm guess David Fincher found real interest in it.

>>81889337
>it's when what they're trying say is overshadowed by the need to say it, most of the time they don't even know what they are trying to say to begin with
>in his efforts to say something meaningful (anything) the try-hard has forgotten what he was trying to say, or just doesn't care, either because of incompetence, lack of talent or vision, and is left with a whole lot of nothing that expresses nothing, or relates to anything
holy shit, that's exactly what happened to me with my movie idea.
I guess I didn't know what I wanted to say in the first place.
But I don't know what to do, because the concept is still good and I feel like it's relevant.

This is a good post, anon.

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UH EXCUSE ME NOLAN IS A RACIST AND HIS MOVIES ARE EXTREMELY WHITE SO HIS WORK IS INVALID

>>81889373
what do you want me to explain? contrived art is not made for artistic purpose

>>81889765
>ANYTHING for film or television is contrived, just at different levels.

>>81890067
Different guy but maybe he means that because of the way television is structured with networks and producers always having some level of input it will always be contrived on some level?

>>81890282
Yeah, that makes sense.

>>81889607
your shitposting killed this thread.

>>81890282
>>81890067
yes thank you. it is created to be able to appeal to greater audiences to better make money.

So reading through the thread, the only way not create contrived films or art in general is to have a message? Going with the truth instead of with what's cool?

But how do you find the truth? What counts as "cool"? People seem to think La La Land was contrived but I really liked it.

>>81891526
creating something without mass appeal in mind. not everything needs to have a message, it can just be enjoyable or pleasing.

>>81892237
>creating something without mass appeal in mind
Eh, I don't think that's it.

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>>81890962
HOW MANY HITS BEFORE IT SINKS :^)

>>81892237
>it can just be enjoyable or pleasing
YOU MUST BE KIDDING

OBVIOUSLY IF YOU TRY TO MAKE A 'MEDIA PRODUCT' TO TARGET ANY SEGMENT OF CONSUMER DEMOGRAPHIC FOR ANY REASON INCLUDING MAXIMIZING PROFIT OR INSERTING SOCIAL AGENDA, ITS INSTANTLY ANTI-ART

BUT WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS IF YOU TRY TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, EVEN UNINTENTIONALLY ENJOYABLE BY ACCIDENT = ABSOLUTELY NOT ART

IF YOU TRY EXTRA HARD TO MAKE IT A HORRIBLE UNWATCHABLE ORDEAL WITH NO REGARD FOR WHO SEES IT OR THEIR ENJOYMENT OF IT, NOW YOU HAVE ART

ALL MOVIES FALLING BELOW THIS THRESHOLD ARE TRASH, ASK ANY REDDITOR

>>81892569
>BUT WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS IF YOU TRY TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, EVEN UNINTENTIONALLY ENJOYABLE BY ACCIDENT = ABSOLUTELY NOT ART

IF YOU TRY EXTRA HARD TO MAKE IT A HORRIBLE UNWATCHABLE ORDEAL WITH NO REGARD FOR WHO SEES IT OR THEIR ENJOYMENT OF IT, NOW YOU HAVE ART


definitely not what I said. heres your (you)
>>81892427
Thats just what I think contrived art is. Creating something and using mass appeal as a means to give your art substance.

>>81892757
oh, my bad.

>>81892779
thats what I dont like about discussing art, its all subjective. even defining what counts as art. gets pretentious really fast

It depends on the intention behind it
>are they trying to make art for the sake of making "art" and people pointing at it and saying, look its art?
>or are they genuinely trying to use film as a way of making explicit a common implicit concept, meaning, or message that many share and thus allows them to connect with the film?

>>81892855
I understand but as an aspiring artist I like to try and come up with objective conclusions and guidelines.
I have a filmmaking notebook. Have I actually made a film? No.

>>81893178
figure out what you like to look at in your medium and make stuff that you like.

>>81885952
>art
>/tv/

you did good, anon

>>81893397
yeah that too.