/scaly/ - Scaly General #271
Post lewd reptiles and discuss scaly stuff, male or female is fine. Dragons, wyverns, reptile folk, snakes, and sharks on top of other scaly things are welcome. Ferals, anthros, and human/scaly are allowed, but please, no monstergirls. As some may take a few creative liberties on their creations, do inquire if there's a particular edge case you're unsure about.
Please avoid reposting images from the past 2-3 or so threads, try to keep things fresh and post other content.
We don't have any other form of chat setup outside these threads and there are no plans for a Discord server, don't ask.
>Scaly Smut
http://pastebin.com/3JXCnQEc
>Other Resources
http://pastebin.com/SvKHwWi8
>FAQ
https://pastebin.com/GYWq2wKK
You are free to contribute to either, simply reply and post the information.
Did you miss something? You can find all previous threads here:
http://desuarchive.org/trash/search/text/%22scaly%20general%22/type/op/
Today's featured image is an awesome LEGO dragon
Topic of the thread: What does /scaly/ know about you that nobody else knows?
>>10771825
>What does /scaly/ know about you that nobody else knows?
Having a Pastebin account with plenty of fetishy things on it.
>topic
Nothing. Because somehow a few people with similar tastes managed to find me.
>>10772188
>>10771825
>What does /scaly/ know about you that nobody else knows?
THAT I LOVE REMY AND HE IS PURE A
>>10772208
Found some Spyro.
What would you do with a qt dragon all to yourself?
>>10772384
That
>tfw no Angel with Scaly Wings 2 where we explore the human world with the now implemented dragons.
>>10772754
>your character is now a dragon
>all characters you can get a relationship with are humans
>suddenly AWSW2 becomes a massive success among weebs
>not long after, little human girls with horns that are called "dragons" become the roster of the VN
>>10772812
Don't even fucking pretend about that shit.
>>10772887
We must perfect envisioning the absolute worst scenario at any moment so we may be thankful about things not being like that, yet.
>>10772754
tfw you could say so much about awsw2 but will probably have to wait months or longer for official announcements
>>10772812
It's really more like
>all of the previous cast is killed off
>because "le humans are so evil xD"
>but its really so the dev doesn't have to worry about continuity
>>10773041
Actually that sounds like a good way to kill two dragons with one stone. Kill lorem and kevin off and then use it to drive the evil human point home.
>>10772754
>>10772812
>inculdes graphic sex scenes written by auspher
>>10773173
A Rathalos with a wig.
>>10773041
>AWSW2 comes out
>Adine is officially dead via canon
>MFW
>>10772974
>ywn frot with a Rathalos
>>10773247
That may be tagged as Monster Hunter but I'm sure it's neither a Rathalos nor a Nargacuga.
>>10773291
I recently found it in a Pixiv search, but yes it's a bit weird.
>>10773280
>>10773252
What sort of cannon?
>>10773403
50 CAL TO THE BRAIN IT WORKS WONDERS
>>10773403
>>10773447
That's a lot of cannon for one single bananawyvern.
>>10773083
Nah
Kevin is trash but not worth killing any of the main 4
>>10773500
How about just killing those 2 off as plot devices?
>>10773280
>>10773540
Sure I guess
But I wouldn't want Lorem to die
He is likable, its just that he was underutilized
Kevin can just kys tho
>>10773674
Only way I'd come to like him is if him being a herm was retconned. I liked his design but it really was a deal breaker.
>>10771825
>Topic of the thread: What does /scaly/ know about you that nobody else knows?
That I'm actually serious about being aroused by scaly anthro babes. I've planted it in everyone's heads that I spam dragon porn at people I don't like online, I've already been caught looking at pic related and played it off as "somebody was wrong on the internet."
Everyone knows, but nobody actually knows.
>>10773173
I thought he retired
>>10773252
>AWSW 2 has a Mangoadine easter egg
I wonder if Saunders saw the pics
>>10772902
So annoying how people call that chinktoon pedo cunt a dragon.
>>10774031
>>10774031
>>10774234
This
>>10774234
Top right looks like a bug. This is such bullshit. Why is anime so shitty?
>>10772230
That's not how you spell Maverick.
Maverick a best.
>>10771825
Very little, actually.
Probably nothing. There's always somebody who knows and isn't here.
>>10773446
>>10773447
>not 88 flak
You had one job, /scaly/. One job.
>>10772384
Boop.
>>10773173
Excuse me but who?
>>10772384
Hug her and feel her warm scales on my body.
Kiss her and experience her large tongue in my mouth.
Get her to cover me with one of her wings.
Mutually snuggle together while we fall asleep.
I want to be a Tama!
>>10771825
>Topic of the thread: What does /scaly/ know about you that nobody else knows?
Some of my crazier fantasies from the TotT like 200 threads ago
>>10776574
Remind me, how deep can tama dive?
>>10776800
Deeper than you will ever manage.
>>10777020
Doesn't really matter, so long as it's deep enough to escape this goddamn weather.
>>10777029
You don`t need to dive in too deep for a Tama to make you forget about the weather.
>>10777043
Maybe not, but it helps.
>>10771825
>TotT
That I have a shota monster doujin in my closet.
I do often worry my parents go through my stuff while I'm at work, though.
>>10773252
How many of these are there? I have: giggling, pic related, holding bag in rain, noodle eating, and now watching TV. Did I miss any?
>>10772384
Train her into a proper cumslut for me.
>>10777499
>>10777465
I have 10.
Note: Andine is not my waifu, Andine is for platonic friendship.
It's really a shame there's no porn of Adine with Remy.
>>10777755
>>10777465
Delivering 10
http://imgur.com/a/FagPn
>>10772384
Kill her mount her head and wear a dragon scale jacket
>>10777997
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U03fecc5NXo
I now imagine a dragon wearing a small human.
>>10778028
Not being edgy. If it was cute like >>10777540 then I would keep her but if it was just a lizard with arms and legs then I would be doing the world a favor
>>10778176
Then if she's so ugly, why would you mount her head on your wall?
>>10778176
>a lizard with arms and legs
So you prefer legless lizards?
>>10778263
Ugly for fug
>>10778285
Nigger you know what I mean
>>10778323
Actually I don't.
The only reason I'd kill her, personally, is because of the tits and vag.
>>10778351
Have you ever seen those pics of the real life looks doggo in bed? Looks actually real. Well those always creep me out so if it was like that only in lizard form then I would purge.
>>10774234
>mobile game
What's it about?
>>10778351
cloaca autist plz go
>>10778519
fug u
>>10778509
>broken code entertainment
did bethesda change their name?
>me watching Yuri!! On Ice
>>10778676
I didn't know Adine was into yuri.
>>10778747
She would definitely be into yuri
>>10778771
I thought that was Izumi's job.
Or was protodragon a guy?
>>10777499
Hnnnng!!!!
>>10778852
Who knows and who cares?
Izumi is a deus ex machina and protodragon isnt even a character
>>10778964
Izumi is a bitch ex machina.
But protodragon looks pretty and needs porn, and the way Izumi acts she requires cock, and lots of it.
>>10771825
>What does /scaly/ know about you that nobody else knows?
How much dragon porn I've drawn/written
What my penis looks like and the fact that I fucked a silicone dragon pussy
I wouldn't say *nobody* else knows but very few people do.
>walking to bedroom with gf
>says she has a surprise for me
>mfw she's in a huntsclan uniform
>mfw the surprise is that she's gonna kill me for her clan
>tfw want to watch epic name bro stream Dark Souls 3 but am I too caught up in watching Yuri!! On Ice
>>10779662
>that pic
Oh bby
>>10779662
Why is that lizard pretending to be a snake?
>>10779785
realismfags need to fuck off
>>10779811
>realism
nigga i don't give a fuck if it has tits or not but a snake with non-vestigial legs isn't a fucking snake
>>10779841
looks like a snake to me :^)
Imagine if there was a /scaly/ thread without autistic shitposting
>>10780074
>autistic
There is no autism here.
This is 4chad, remember?
>>10777259
>living with your parents
Can't you crypto that shit?
>>10772317
where can i get one?
This is literally the best thing Guoh has ever drawn
Prove me wrong, beters
>>10781588
The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.
>This will never be you
>>10781641
why live bros
>>10781641
tfw I rp my lizard girl on SS13 to be as slutty and lewd as possible without going overboard and getting banned for ERP
tfw I imagine her in this position several times
Do you aspire to do anything with your scaly fetish, /trash/?
I have a game idea where essentially you play as a male or female dragon warrior and everyone wants to fuck you but I'm learning how to code by and by before actually starting.
>>10782715
You might consider a text based game (like Corruption of Champions or Trials in Tainted Space), as it's relatively easy to code and you'll save a ton of time and money on art assets, etc.
>>10782812
I wanted to do a text based game for a separate project but for this one I wanted to do a full fledged (hopefully quality) game
>>10782715
The most i'd go with it is a jrpg with scaly main characters
>>10782601
>lizard sluts
You are scum.
>>10782715
Well, I wanna draw one day.
>>10782601
Out of curiosity, which server?
>>10783157
>Not being a slutty lizard
Man you're missing out
>>10783297
Lizards are extremely pure, you filthy ligger are besmirching their good name.
>>10782842
I don't mean to discourage you, I just hope you understand that making the art assets for it would be a huge amount of extra work, unless you use graphics simplified to the point that it'd be hard to make them sexy.
>>10783297
slutfags like you are the cancer that killed SS13
that said I can't even play on TG so it's not like I can stop you
Post logs.
>>10783338
Nah man, they want that hot blooded human cock shooting boiling cum into their wombs as the heat radiates throughout their core.
>>10783377
>boiling cum in the womb
That actually sounds like it would be extremely painful.
>>10783458
For you.
>>10783497
kek
>>10783535
that was utterly predictable desu
lower third kek
>>10783377
There is literally nothing more disgusting than the human male.
>>10773252
>kill off a major waifu character
>literally destroy half your audiance in one swoop
kek
>>10781641
>you will never have three disembodied penises
why live?
>>10783665
They should kill Bryce, too, so that the AWSW fanbase is purged of normals.
>>10783607
I disagree, there is nothing hotter than human male on lizard female.
And then self-inserting as the lizard female.
>>10783914
That isn't even a lizard.
>>10784231
>Literally an argonian from Elder Scrolls
Right.
Test
>>10784466
>mammary glands
>>10784584
Yes, argonians have those. Welcome to 2006.
>>10784584
>complaining about tits
>reads the OP
I'm sorry realismfags, but some of us don't really give a fuck about what we want to fuck as long as it has scales
>>10784625
Check out this curvaceous scale
I am rock, fucking hard
>>10784690
That is a good looking scale ttbh
>>10784466
Exactly. The immune system of omniscient autistic trees.
Not a lizard.
>>10784690
Scales.
You know, plural.
>>10784787
They're lizards that were physically altered by interdimensional hivemind trees. At a moments notice, your argonian wife could turn into an 8ft bara crocodile because the trees just want to fuck with you.
>>10784811
Better?
>>10784866
kek
>>10784602
actually you are wrong.
sure they have meat sacks, but there is no milk in there, so no mammary glands.
Argonians are actually egglying, so they have no need for milk
> more Slack-Wyrm
>>10785230
Slack stopped slacking off?
Maybe this comic will actually get decent!
btw /scally/ are you up to date with recent animu?
Does anyone have that set of images that was a sort of scale from human to a "proper" anthro lizard? I don't remember much of it, except that there were different pictures for different body parts, and it had a dark green background.
National Geographic in lizardman village.
lizards aparently like quality food, and fight fiercelly for right to eat best pieces ^^
>>10785494
?
>>10785230
man i'd totally commission the guy
...if he was willing to do NSFW commissions
>>10785336
>slack not slacking
>better
>>10785564
Fergus needs to his sister.
>>10785535
>>10785498
What animu is this?
>>10785609
>starting at monstergirl
>stopping at still has nipples
>>10785663
Isekai Shokudou, lizarmans are mostly in ep 4
in ep 5 (latest) there is a lion-o antrhro.
There is also quite hawt Dragon Empress in i think ep 1 or 2? but she is mostly transformed into human form
btw a small warning, this is actually a cooking porn* animu, not what most weebs are acustomed too
*no seriously, they strike faces and make sounds when eating like they orgasm 100x times in a row
>>10780895
>living with your parents
I'm a college student and it's summer, best option is living with parents.
>>10782715
I'm building the conceptual framework of a fighting game engine which I will begin coding shortly as a way to learn c++.
At least two characters will be scaly.
>>10785651
I wanna see his sister lay eggs
'Course, I wouldn't trust her for a damn second to be a mother dragon
>>10785483
sauce?
>>10785785
Is it a laptop? Then I don't see why you'd worry about it.
Unless your parents keep asking to use it and you had to give them the password.
>>10785563
Yeah, those! Do you have the rest, per chance?
>ywn oppress and enslave humanity as a race of reptilians.
Honestly would glady oppress humans if i was a scaly.
>>10786398
No it is a literal book of monster porn that I scanned and shared here, you can find it in the pastebin.
>>10786590
weew
Thanks for that.
>>10777755
>>10777926
Thanks anon. You're a real bean.
Lizards DO NOT have nipples.
kys
>>10786819
>>10786837
>>10786789
That's it mister, I'm putting you on time out.
Time to visit the Shadow Realm, anon.
>>10784231
>>10784625
Objectively, no fantasy scalies almost ever have anything to do with earth reptiles.
>>10785046
>Argonians are actually egglying, so they have no need for milk
This is an age-old meme-argument that bases itself in real life, but is fucking wrong and stupid - as in a fuckload of larger creatures are born so frail their nutritional needs have be provided by their parents/parent somehow anyways, be it a pulped up mass of some prey or plant that is regurgitated, or some sort of milk.
Fact that several bird species feed their newly hatched chicks with a 'kind of milk'. Last year they even identified a species of cockroach that does so too, a fucking insect.
Also Platypus and likely early forms of mammals that probably looked more like reptiles than mammals as we know them.
Again, you wouldn't really need real life examples because fantasy/fictional humanoids of any resemblance to earthly creatures are still not related to earth creatures, unless stated otherwise.
>>10788102
not to mention, it's most likely entirely possible to bioengineer animals to do whatever the fuck we want them to do, be it have lizards producing milk or mammals to have eggs
i mean, fuck, if we can have goats produce a usable amount of spider silk from their udders, the sky's the limit, really
>>10788204
Not scalie but...
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-show-why-we-should-all-start-drinking-cockroach-milk
Probably closest it gets to scalie - birds are descended from avian dinosaurs anyway - as far as i know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_milk
>Crop milk bears little physical resemblance to mammalian milk, the former being a semi-solid substance somewhat like pale yellow cottage cheese.
Now is that disgusting or anything? Do you think it would work with scalies with tits? Is it something an Argonian maid could slip into the food?
>>10788562
i mean... i wouldn't VOUCH for scalie tits, i'm just saying it's POSSIBLE
although i would vouch for mammalian eggs, though, but that's off-topic
>>10788517
Jealous of Boris right now.
>>10788562
>(((Scientists))) say we should drink cockroach milk
Yes goyim, be part of that all natural diet
>>10788517
What doed this have to do with dragons though? I'm getting another Dragon's Burn feel off this comic.
At least this one has cute kobolds instead of shitty cat shenanigans
If someone is bitching about nipples/cloaca/tails just ignore them, even if other people are falling for it. It's just a waste of time.
Finished this today.
>>10789328
that's good shit
>>10788517
>>10789087
Well technically its called Trash Knight, not Dragon Knight.
>>10789087
I have it on good authority that we haven't seen the last of that dragon.
>>10789477
>ywn be a living poker table for kobold whores
>>10789059
Well clearly it wouldn't involve milking cockroaches. Probably we'd just isolate the gene making the desired proteins and put them in a cow, or yeast, or algae. It wouldn't even really be milk, just a nutrition additive.
Would you a lusty argonian maid?
>>10790305
I'd hire her full term.
>>10790305
Why is the anus on the side of her left thigh?
>>10789328
nice minimalist style
>>10789059
>>10790546
>spends 10 minutes staring into the argonians asshole
Dude it looks fine to me
>>10790305
yes in a heartbeat. I just spent 10 minutes looking into your asshole
>>10790305
No. According to the story she's shit at cleaning
>>10790546
It's certainly strange, I would have thought more the back of the knee maybe, but...
>>10785046
>Argonians are actually egglying
It depends on the variant. Morrowind Argonians are egg laying, Oblivion/Skyrim Argonians live birth.
>>10791853
In times of stress nad separation from the Hist, live births become the norm; safty and plenty lead to egg laying. I have forgotten where I read that in the lore
>>10786467
one i posted before + those are more or less all
https://e621.net/pool/show/9043
Looks like some drawfags had some fun.
>>>/v/385890513
>https://imgur.com/a/PevE6
>>10795024
man if at least it was a male dragon i'd have a reason to interact with it at all
as it stands the MO is get out, find better things to do
>>10795044
>man if at least it was a male dragon i'd have a reason to interact with it at all
If you actually checked the dragon was technically ambiguous, the princess just turned thicc and then into a dragon.
Anybody got any good hemipenis stuff? Feral doms without females preferred.
>It's already August 2017
I feel like an elder dragon now
>>10795505
>can't have a long-ass tongue and steal shit
Why even live?
>>10786382
The "A centaur's Life" manga.
>>10772057
That I'm a scaly.
Also that I'm boatfag.
They know I procrastinate like a dead fuck, sorry I haven't gotten any more writefaggotry up here.
>>10777425
Kobolds are best scaly.
>>10795975
Objectively false.
>>10795990
Dragons have shit trapmaking skills, though, and sneks take weird poops. you're not really making a good case.
Have a pic of Horridus, though. At least you were just blunt and not flat out rude.
speaking of kobolds, does anyone have that sefieren comic with the pickpocket bold?
I love Lati`s
>>10796018
>trapmaking
Traps are gay.
>>10796059
They may be gay, but they're also tight.
>>10796122
That's not a trap, though, that's futa.
>>10796148
Use your imagination >:c
I'd much rather be myself and get turned into a trap by a feral dragon desu. Wrapping my arms and legs around a giant dragon cock sounds divine.
>>10795320
>>10796170
Imagination is for nerds ;^3
>>10796233
Honestly. Wasn't expecting this.
>>10796233
thats pretty hot
>>10796233
So, would anyone like an erotic story I wrote a while back? It involves sharkgirls.
A Night with Shark Girls
by Anonymous at https://pastebin.com/9gjEJE1E
Erotic story with human x anthro sharks. Threesome, gentle BDSM.
Tags: anthro, shark, human on anthro, femdom, submissive, threesome
>>10796318
Hot enough to melt steel beams.
>>10797326
hawt
>>10795513
>can't steal shit
>saying shit specifically with that pic
You didn't think that post out methinks, anon...
>>10797468
no step on snek
>>10797674
can i sex snek
>>10797672
Kek
>>10796019
It should be on e621, no?
>>10796039
>ywn be join the lati@s mile high club sandwich
>>10796540
I'll read this later
>if dragon's were real, sex with either a male or a female would still probobly break you
How would you circumvent this?
>>10798803
I become a dragon.
>>10798803
By performing cunnilingus and manual stimulation upon her girly bits with such skill that she fell in love with me and found herself unable to do me harm, of course.
>>10798803
You need to fuck THEM
Male or female, it's the only way
The size of this Dragon is perfect.
>>10799125
Also this one.
>>10799392
I prefer a bit larger.
>>10800223
The perfect suplex size.
>>10800425
I don't think you'd survive Maverick suplexing you.
>>10801201
That's good. I want to be the one suplexing him.
>>10800776
Nice.
>>10801222
You probably wouldn't survive that, either.
>>10801222
>>10801257
Nonsense, anon.
I'm quite sturdy.
>>10801470
Oh, anon. You have no idea.
>>10793343
>Cumming into spandex on a lizard girl
Sweet fucking Jesus
>>10801515
You sound like you're speaking from experience
>>10801983
I have a personal interest in Maverick, yes.
>101°f in where i live
>>10803102
I want to see where all that cum came from.
>>10803179
isn't that, like, 40 degrees of enlightenment and reason?
>>10803179
>100F
>hot
>>10788517
>ywn be used like a poker table by two hot kobolds
>>10803299
Where in the fuck are you that 100F isnt hot. Australia?
Torchbug is ultimate kobold waifu next to Guoh's kobolds
>>10803538
That's a cozy t-shirt temperature.
>>10803602
>>10803602
>>10803618
Seems to be getting a tad better, at least compared to the stuff he first posted.
>>10803712
Yeah I hope they keep improving.
>>10803589
>>10803607
Please remove the
>>10804222
Please remove these abominations of my waifu You`re insulting everything that I love*
Looking at this dragon.
The words "emergency pressure relief vent" come to mind.
>>10804256
Really?
When I look at him, the words "Comfy suplex practice dummy" come to mind.
>>10804676
>>10804707
I'll be sure to kiss him right after. He'll have the cutest face.
>>10804749
Do not touch my Remy.
>>10804785
It's too late. I shall suplex him out of this dimension.
>>10804807
Yeah, right.
>>10804874
Yes indeed.
>>10804893
could you faggots not
>>10804923
Aww.
>>10804940
Sww.
>>10798764
>should be on e621
not the whole thing, just a set of preview images
I'm pretty sure someone here shared an imgur link with the full comic some time back, but (like always) I forgot to save it
>>10804938
Nice
>>10805097
Yeah.
>>10805057
Check desuarchive, "seiferin comoc/kobold" should do it
>>10796540
Terrible. you have no skill for writing at all. Everything in it was bad. I'm not being mean, this is the truth.
>>10805286
well I found it on desu
but just my luck, the image server it's stored on is down
which means all I can get are thumbs
>>10805922
Dude just google "sefeiren kobold comic" and you'll find it in like two seconds
>>10805990
well I'll be damned
>>10796540
Holy fuck this is bad. Focus on basic English grammar before even posting again. Please.
>>10796540
I liked it, the gals are cute and it was interesting how you put a spin on the ears and hairs so commonly found on them.
Although I think you have gotten a samefag shitposter to respond to you
>>10803712
He does has a fairly decent output, too.
>Decide to replay MH4U
>Forgot how long it takes to get all the unlocks from caravan
Could be worse, I guess.
>No Vidya about being a dragon, doing cool dragon things
>Claiming and building a cave home
>Gathering an army of minions
>Learning to fight, with physical strength or powerful magic
>Building a huge collection of valuable stuff
>Still terrorizing kingdoms even though you have more wealth than their entire population
>Barbequing all the knights they send to stop you.
>>10806899
I think you may be right about the samefag.
Was the worldbuilding excessive? I know it's a bad habit, and may detract from getting straight to the erotic bits that I know are the main point of interest for many readers. I have a compulsion, though, to explore a strange world before we go immediately to the tab-A-in-slot-B stuff that takes place there.
>>10772384
Make some hatchlings if she'll let me.
>>10807487
I like worldbuilding myself, I think it adds depth to the narrative and acts as a partial background for characters that really, probably won't get say a novel written about them to explore their personalities.
>>10796540
yeah it was good, i was in that thread you originally posted it in, i screen capped them cuz i was afraid nobody would archive it
and yeah, that other dude is looks like he's samefagging
>>10805799
>>10806451
Post something better, then, you ligger. I bet you are the same faggot always complaining about hair and no cloaca.
I am just going to straight up say it. AWSW is not a game it is an autistic furry dating simulator for Scalefags.
>>10808402
>AWSW is a dating simulator for Scalefags.
Isn't that the point?
>>10806937
Does she hate herself or something?
>>10808402
Well, it was formerly named along the lines of Dragon Dating Simulator.
>>10808458
What do you mean?
>>10808503
Doesn't Cheval hate monsters or something?
>>10808402
Of course, Visual Novels aren't games.
>>10808532
Haven't played Stories or watched the anime proper, but from what I understand from shitposting elsewhere the gist is that Cheval's main monstie is a Rathian and has a hateboner towards frenzied monsters. Lute's Rathalos was attacked by a frenzied monster and so he thinks it's guilty by association.
new thread soon
>>10808727
I've got one on the backburner, don't worry. New threads can wait until Page 7~ or so.
>>10808368
>Post something better, then
What a dumb meme. Whether I can or can't write better than you (I can) has no bearing on your skill. If you can't handle criticism don't ask for it.
>>10808747
I thought of a good TotT when I thought of this current one but I've forgotten it.
New thread.
>>10809049
>>10809049
>>10809049
>>10808860
Thats not criticism you fucking sperg, thats just hate, criticism actually gives direction on improvement. Go hang yourself
>>10807089
My friend, look up defiler wings. It has everything you just listed there.
>>10809337
Not him but just downloaded this, thank you for letting me know about this
>>10808402
Lol
>>10797326
>>10797326
>>10810173
>>10785498
>>10785535
Ah, please tell us you have a source for that!