Hey /tg/, I have a question about medieval ships. In a D&D

Wikipedia/Google

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>>55378963

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>>55378963
I gotchu

>>55378993
>>55379058
Thanks!

>>55378963

Wait. 300 soldiers on the island, right?

How big are these three deckers? Because it's worth noting that later English and French two deckers were larger, faster, and gunnier than many three deckers of earlier eras. Are we talking proper medieval like the Mary Rose? Because even that had a bigger crew than your entire island.

Ships are fucken big man

>>55379130
Oh that's too small? That's surprising, I was worried I'd put far too many people around.

I know too little about ships, honestly. That's why I'm trying to educate myself here.

>>55378963
Ask a black person, they were all slaves on one of those ships

>>55379058
>Ship of the line
>300 men

That doesn't seem right, "ship of the line" isn't a medieval term since they didn't DO lines of battle.

Also ships of the line could have crews of nearly a thousand people. You need a lot of dudes to run a warship in a fight.

>>55379151

For big three decker medieval warships with big forecastles for archers and hand-gunners to rain hell down on smaller ships from, you need a lot of people. Not all of them are "crew" in the strictest sense since a lot of them exist mainly to kill the other guys on other ships, rather than running the ship. But once cannons become more of a thing, then gunners could be considered "crew" and later ships have a lot of gunners.

Medieval ships didn't really rely on guns except for bow-mounted bombards which did the enormous hurt. The broadside is a later development.

>>55379164

Drunk wikipedia and google searches tell me that the early Mary Rose "over 200 sailors, 185 soldiers and 30 gunners". Henri Grace à Dieu, had a complement of 700-1000 sailors. The ,assive Ottoman Mahmudiye had 1280 sailors. The Hercule lost 290~ sailors in a single engagement. So you're right, 300 seems a tad short but easily adjustable. If OP wanted to keep his islander numbers low, he could simply say that during the sailing seasons the numbers are low and the seasons when sailors are in port the numbers are high.

>>55379156

There are layers of dumb going on here.

>>55379156

yeah but slaves only count as 3/5s

Mostly everyone offers a valid point, but the truth of the matter is to look at the situation directly (OP's dilemma of what ship to use).

The island is assumed to be 'occupied', meaning transportation has been bringing supplies (rations, clothing, medical, ammunition), and men to use them, for at least enough time to merit the term "manned".
This argues that the ships aren't necessarily intended to be operated by a contingent of 300 soldiers/mariners. As displayed in OP's picture, the Caravel was a smaller, although highly manoeuvrable vessel that could readily be identified with the 'Medieval' era (15th century Portuguese expeditionaries). It would serve well enough in the Medieval context, especially if supported by (let's say) "Jannisaries", or "Conquistador", or even just early pound cannon.

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>>55378963
Let's go with 15th century, because I love the absurdities of the portuguese Age of Exploration like the dude using his tooth as musket ammo. http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm

A crew of three hundred fits in a single carrack or galleon. The first is optimized for carrying cargo and boarding, while the latter was made when people figured out it was worth more to carry cannons than having big forecastles and aftcastles working as "ship towers" and also as big targets. Those "classes" don't usually denote size, just certain traits. A carrack could be anywhere from about 250 to 2000 tuns big.

Ship cargo is measured in volume, specifically tuns. A tun is a barrel carying about 1.000 liters of water or 1.000 kilos of something, so it doubles as weight measure. Sometimes it's hard to figure out if a listed tonnage takes into account only the cargo capacity or if it is the more modern displacement measure.

A 400 tun carrack would need a crew of about 150, have an autonomy of 4000 km at four knots and maximum speed of six knots. This could already carry your 300. It's a matter of alocating more space for consumables and crew than cargo and commodities. The same goes for weaponry. If it helps, the average "pirate movie" ship cannon would be around 3,3 tons heavy. It would have few of these and more smaller ones like swivel guns, but it depends.

>>55378963
Og these ships, I think the third is the best bet. It is the largest ship and has a catapult, meanwhile teh first ship is kinda small and the third ship is just two floating platforms and a rowboat.

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>>55380929
The following is a sample composition of a typical 16th-century Portuguese India nau (carrack):
1 captain (capitão)
1 clerk (escrivão)
1 chaplain (capelão)
2 pilots (piloto, soto-piloto)
1 master (mestre)
1 boatswain (contramestre)
1 boatswain's mate (guardião)
2 windlass operators (estrinqueiros)
45 seamen (marinheiros)
48 ship-boys (grumetes)
4 pages (pagems)
2 carpenters (carpinteiro and carpinteiro sobressalente)
2 caulkers (calafate and calafate sobressalente)
1 cooper (tanoeiro)
1 steward (despenseiro)
1 bailiff (meirinho)
1 barber-surgeon (barbeiro)
1 constable (condestável)
11 gunners (bombardeiros)
Total = 127 crew
Plus any soldiers and passengers that might be taken aboard. They didn't have cooks because portuguese seamen were expected to make their own food.

A galeass would need about 270 crew because of rowers, but rowing vessels usually have bad open sea handling.

A 500 tun galleon could have about 300 crew, autonomy of 3500 km at five knots and a maximum speed of seven. Galleon are better than carracks in about every way, even price and minimum crew. It would have 300 because a voyage to India and the like expected to lose quite a few to disease, disaster and fighting.

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>>55380968
What every position means in the former composition:

>Captain gave orders; usually a noble or adventurer with no ocean experience and sometimes not even comand exp.. Some crews might pool up money to have one of theirs as captain. He could apoint an under-captain.

>scribe was the trusted servant of the crown, he had the key to the money and cargo. Not even the captain could check the cargo without the scribe. Pirates tried to capture him alive.

>Pilot is also the navigator. Some had personal diaries which were as valuable as wizard's grimories when it came to dealing with the sea and knowing routes. He had an apprentice.

>The master or crewmaster was the one translating the pilot's orders on crew orders. Pilot said he was going to left, master told the crew to get the ropes and sails like so to allow for that. He could be a substitute pilot if needed.

>The boatswain was an assistant and enforcer of the master. They usually split the work between them, each one ordering half the deck/sails/rigging. He also took care of the anchors and unloading of cargo. He had his own assistant, boatswain's mate.

>two estrinqueiros, skilled sailors in charge of the windlass that operated the round sails (one for the main mast, another for the fore mast).

>The bailiff, a judicial officer, was in charge of dispensing punishment and supervising on-board dangers (fires, gunpowder stores, weapon caches).

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>>55380984
>The chaplain was in charge of saving souls, the barber surgeon in charge of saving lives. Fantasy clerics could combine both.

>The purser was in charge of food stores and rations. Unlike ships of other nations, Portuguese vessels did not usually have a cook aboard, sailors were expected to cook their own meals themselves at the ship's ovens.

>Perhaps the most valued of the specialized positions was the repair crew. This was usually composed of two carpenters and two caulkers that fixed anything that was broken, plus the cooper, who ensured the cargo and water stores remained preserved.

>A nau might also have divers, crew specially trained to go down the outside of the ship to check and help repair hull damage below the water level.

>Every nau also had, at the very least, a small specialized artillery crew of around ten gunners, under the command of a constable. As naval artillery was the single most important advantage the Portuguese had over rival powers in the Indian Ocean, gunners were highly trained and enjoyed a bit of an elite status on the ship.

>The bulk of the crew, seamen and shipboys, could be treated as a faceless mob whose morale is still important, can be lost due to disasters and combat but replenished in harbors.

>>55379058
What about skeleton crew?

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>>55380999

Boteanon, keep going, this is very useful.

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>>55378963
>>55379058

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>>55381097
Medieval sea combat in Europe was pretty much land combat. Just get some large, flat vessels near each other so the soldiers onboard can slaughter one another. There were small siege weapons and archer towers too. Ramming vessels survived the fall of the Roman Empire and served well within the Mediterranean.

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>>55381116
Square sails were popular for some time in Northern and Western Europe, but eventually the lateen sail made it's way into the so called "round" European sailing vessels. The triangular sail was good for maneuvering in the wind. Putting them in the aft or bow of the ship could greatly increase a ships turning speed. Even a knot or two could make all the difference. If you ever see sails with multiple levels, these have names. Look into lugsails, jib, jib boom, and square sails for more info.

A galley classified as "a scaloccio" is rowed by teams of three, five or seven men on a bench pulling a single oar. Gallies called "ala sensile" had a single rower per oar, possibly two or three men to a bench . These benches were called "a terzaruolo". The top speed of a galley under full-oar has been estimated to be 7 or 8 knots

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>>55381008
Not sure to be honest, anon. As ships grew larger in size, their crew/ship requirements were not linear. They were exponential. I'd say a vessel with a max crew of less than 100 could get away with 25-30 people. 100-175 max crew could probably do with 50. Anything higher than 175 max crew should not have less than 80 crew. These are guesses though

>>55381225
See this example for some square sail terms. This is a more modern vessel than you seem to be interested in however

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>>55381020
Here's my folder of ship images, mostly real ones:
https://imgur.com/a/yZDSn

This is a sailing simulator:
http://www.thepirateking.com/ships/sail_simulator.htm

>>55381027
Okay, let's see...

https://youtu.be/m0J62qGCHNA
Keep in mind that when it refers to "naus", it seems to be also talking about "galleons" sometimes.

>Cannoballs can bounce several times on water and soil. This was used to increase maximum effective range and hit several ships.

>Ships would carry at most half of their intended supplies. They were expected to manage afterwards, specially during the return. They could go with a quite good diversity and quality but return on the dreaded dry and rotten biscuits.

The former definitions of each "class" are my own, made for gaming. Ships had highly individual characteristics even before any reforms. The numbers represent averages from which a certain ship may deviate somewhat.

Caravels have one ot three masts with triangular sails and aftcastle higher than forecastle. Fast and light, perfect for exploration, scouting and messaging. Cargo of 75 tuns, minimum 20 crew, autonomy of 4000km at 8 knots, maximum 12 knots.

Round or war caravel: capable of taking on rougher seas and carrying big cannons to fight on their own or support larger ships. Same role as the latter frigates of the 17-19th centuries. Three or four masts combining square and triangular sails. Cargo 100 to 150 tuns, 60 crew, autonomy 4000km at eight knots, maximum 10 knots.

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>>55381297
Fluyts were the great oceanic invention of the dutch. Managing a good level of mass-production and standartization at the cost of versatily. Most ships can be easily converted from war to transport and back, but the fluyt was cargo only. This made it much cheaper. For example, it wouldn't have gun ports, forecastle or aftcastle, and would have higher masts. One would carry at most some swivel guns for self-defense while it tries to outrun the enemy. It demands special installations and tools with restricted acess. About 300 tuns, autonomy of 4000 km at 5 knots, maximum 10 knots. Don't have any reliable numbers on crew, but it seems it could be as low as 20, which impacts even further its fighting issues.

Galley: very generic term for ships which use both rowers and sails. Many shapes and sizes. Most are long and agile, have only one deck, good for rivers and near the coast but often sink in open sea and in storms. Cargo about 250 tuns, minimum 80 crew, autonomy of 1500km at 2 knots. Maximum about 7 knots. The ancient greeks had a dick contest in which they built supergalleys with catamaran hulls which housed 4000 rowers and 3000 soldiers, true sea fortress which almost couldn't move.

Galeass: galleys which are bigger and sturdier, carrying more cargo or more and bigger guns. Cargo of 400 tuns, 270 crew, autonomy of 2000km at 2 knots, maximum speed 5 knots.

Drakkar: great ship for fantasy barbarians, not!viking or otherwise. The minimum crew for sailing is about 20, 100 more if you plan to have the agility rowing gives you in battle and a warband to raid with. The rowers seat on top of their chests. This is a fast, light, hunting and ambushing vessel, good at shallow rivers and rough seas, but not meant for head-on combat with the likes of caravels and galleons unless enjoying numeric advantage. The austronesian/polynesian ships roughly compare to it. The average speed is 8 knots, maximum 15. Cargo about 80 to 120 tuns.

That's it folks. Hope it helps.

>>55381439
>no more
>only mage troll threads now
Come back, talk about something else nautical related!

>>55381466
I don't have much more to say... I'll compile some nautical info and/or links.

>>55381522
Is it true people couldn't swim?
How prevalent was cannon and shot, and who took advantage of it first?
What would it take to save a sinking ship?

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>>55381522
Cannons had many sizes, different countries had their own classifications but one can make it like this for RPG:

1>common cannon, heavy hitter nicknamed "wall-breaker". Weight: 3.3 tons; 195mm; about 3.5 meters long; ammo weights 18 kilos; effective range about 2.5 kilometers.

2a>muzzle-loading
2b>breech-loading

3>culverin. Longer barrel, better range and less damage. Weight: 2.5 tons; 145mm; about 4.7 meters long; ammo weights 9 kilos; effective range about 4 kilometers.

4>swivel gun or falconet. Antipersonnel. Weight: 100 kilos; 60mm; about 2 meters long; ammo weights 600 grams; effective range about 1 kilometer.

http://www.cogandgalley.com/

http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/search/label/boat%20and%20ship

http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/07/mingdynastynavycomparison.html
>Interesting comparison between different warships of the Far East in the sixteenth and seventeenth century

>>55381557
>Is it true people couldn't swim?
Yes, it wasn't really necessary for most people (it still isn't) and just about anybody could do for becoming an average seaman. Plus your conscripts couldn't desert ther ship.

>How prevalent was cannon and shot, and who took advantage of it first?
Very. Chinese first came up with shot and later the "full bullet" so to say. Read Tonio Andrade's "The Gunpowder Age: China, Military Innovation, and the Rise of the West in World History" for the latest and comprehensive info on it.

For portuguese 16th /k/ porn, check this:
https://youtu.be/adz7GgCTKok

>What would it take to save a sinking ship?
Depends. One wouldn't have sucess on preventing it from sinking. If in shallow waters, say, a harbor entrance, there were "salvage hulks" which would at least get the cannons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(ship_type)#Salvage_pontoon

>>55381683
>http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/07/mingdynastynavycomparison.html
A pirate kitchen sink setting where Vikings vs Pirates vs Buccaneer vs Privateer vs Barbary corsair vs Wokou vs Chinese pirates suddenly sounds like fun to me.

>>55381683
I go bang my gf, come back to this.
Awesome.

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>>55379164
The term for of medieval era was "Man-o' War" I believe, which largely amounted to the same thing in regards to role and construction.

Still, purely sale-powered ships were of secondary commanality compared to the galley and galleass as well as their many variations, which though not generally seaworthy were far more maneuverable and convinient in coastal areas such as Venice and the Caspian Sea.

I will say that Galleons are somewhat anachronistic for a medieval-esque setting, with the more common ship type fitting their general usage being the Cog and Caravel. Also, that chart is innacurate when it comes to the max crew of a Fluyt - the Mayflower was a Fluyt which carried over 100 people.

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>>55382795
Are you OP? Anyway, thanks.

>>55382508
http://hariragat.blogspot.com.br/2012/02/hari-ragat-vijadesan-ships.html
http://hariragat.blogspot.com.br/2010/10/seafaring-traditions-for-hari-ragat.html
>“The Iranun warriors, like the Vikings, were worldly raiders who traveled in search of slaves and work, sometimes for years on end, around the great ports of Manila, Makassar, Batavia, Penang, and Singapore. They often spoke a variety of languages, and were familiar with the traditions and religions of all quarters of Southeast Asia. Some were literate, able to negotiate ransom, or unravel the intricacy of [the] colonial legal system, and they were knowledgeable in martial arts, weapons manufacture and seamanship.”

>Now the idea of Vikings is very popular as a fantasy gaming trope. So why are there no games about the Malay seafarers?

I love the idea of raiding someone dressing brass armor. It'll be the sea version of For Honor. Rockets, scimitars, ninja techniques, crab swords, random island generators...