>2017 >D&D 5E out >People still complaining about

>>55367258
hurdurr the new thing is bad because it dumbed down casual bad simple

>>55367258
Because nu/tg/ is unironically marked by being angry, no I don't mean ironic rage or anger at actual things that need it I mean seriously angry at the most inconsequential things, shitposting is more rampant, posters are easily baited, divergence is a rare species

The only thing separating this place from /v/ is an abundance of off topic memes and /pol/ bait garbage

>>55367258
You mean the new version, where the wizard has a pet Simulacra of himself polymorphed permanently into a Balor, none of which requires concentration?

Possibly an army of Simulacra polymorphed into Balors, if he wants to cheese it.

>>55367258
how is Magic vs Martials even a problem, nigga just don't pick Martial

>>55367310
You can polymorph into a balor?

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>>55367258
>People still complaining about Magic vs Martials and using arguments about stacking up spells to justify it
>arguments about stacking up spells to justify it

See, this is where you went full retard. Stacking spells is NOT the problem with Casters vs Martials. The problem with Casters Vs Martials is, and always has been, that in any situation that's not pure straightforward combat, the caster characters have dozens of tools at their disposal for interacting with the world, and the martial only has a few (most of which are done better with magic anyway).

To put this into perspective, at level 5, a Fighter gets better at hitting things. At level 5, a Wizard learns to fucking FLY and TURN INVISIBLE. Now tell me who just gained more agency and creative ways to interact with the world. It sure as fuck wasn't the Fighter.

The real issue here is that it's 2017 and DnD is still the king of the industry for some godsforsaken reason. It's the fucking Call of Duty of Tabletop games, and people keep sucking down the shit even though it's so blatantly and obviously shit.

>>55367426
Yes, permanently too.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/True%20Polymorph#content

>The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, the transformation becomes permanent.

>Creature into Creature: If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.

CR/Level is the only obstacle. Your simulacra has your level. Balor's CR is 19 or 20, can't remember. So a level 20 wizard can polymorph himself or his simulacra into a balor, permanently.

>>55367258
D&D 3.5 is old and full of personality.

5e lacks that personality.

I'd rather play a huge game that can be fixed, than a boring game that can't

>>55367483
Well, permanently until dispelled.

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>>55367258
>2017
>DnD whatever edition is out
>People complaining about DnD
>People won't play ANYTHING else though

Why are fa/tg/uys so retarded? Stop playing DnD and play anything else, you shits. Other games were made for a reason.

>>55367552
I actually play gurps, most people that dog on d&d play other games

>>55367516
Right, spellcasters are at least still weak to other spellcasters. I guess that's something.

>>55367552
While I have lots of fun with D&D, I have to agree, I see what people might dislike in it.

So yeah if you don't like D&D no one cares, instead go play something else and not complain about every little detail.

>>55367584
>2017
>not only using instantaneous spells that can't be dispelled

You aren't thinking like a wizard

>>55367599
Those can be countered. Of course, you can counter their counter.

>>55367483
That's fucking level 8 and 9 spells though.

>>55367629
>2017
>not having a million contingency spells
Still not thinking like a wizard.

Have greater dispell magic set to dispel all dispels

>>55367651
I can win with a level 7 spell.

Or an unholy arrow and a scroll of command undead

Because martial supremacy still exists
>Be druid
>Fighting obvious boss battle
>Decide I want to swing my big caster dick around, polymorph the boss
>Toss the now small fucker down a cliff, not our problem anymore
>DM is sad because his planned boss encounter was beaten by a single failed save

>>55367676
Either you have a boss with high saves/rerolls

Or you just don't have bosses and make puzzles

>>55367654
We are talking about latest versions, where, thankfully, those don't exist in that form.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Contingency#h-Contingency

You can't contingency counterspell, since the contingency spell has to target you, and counterspell has to target an enemy.

You could Contingency another polymorph to "when my next polymorph ends" though, I guess. Which means you could stack up like 20 layers of it.

>>55367651
Yes, and..?

>>55367676
>Legendary Resistance
>If a creature fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

>>55367731
Does 5e have psions?

I really like psions.

Sad about the contingency thing though.

>>55367770
This ladies and gentlemen,

Is why we have the tome of battle.

>>55367773
They are in UA (basically playtest) right now, should be in the next big expansion I think. They are pretty cool.

>>55367770
>Whatever, the wizard can fly
Wasting precious resources when the climber can just go up and drop down a rope.
>The wizard can turn invisible, and also shapeshift into people, and also teleport if he gets caught. Let him do it.
Spends precious resources to catch up with the specialist. Don't be a retard - either don't cast those spells or cast them on the specialist to GUARANTEE his success.
>"Oh, the wizard knows goodberry and can keep us fed for like a week with it."
"Wish I had one more spell slot right now, but since none of you fuckers took survival, I had to keep casting Goodberry".
>"Yeah, but the wizard has Enchanting spells, which are basically mind control..."
Yeah, why try to do things like a reasonable person, let's go straight to the nuclear option, fail miserably because of an unlucky save or something then die in a MAD.
>"You know the Knock spell instantly opens all non-magical locks, right? And he can dispel the magic ones. And he can also summon things to scout ahead and activate any of the traps.
Alert all enemies in the dungeon of your presence and have less slots to deal with them now that their mass attack is incoming. Fucking genius, but aren't wizards supposed to be high INT?

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>>55367785
>The problem with Martials is that they can't do anything good outside of COMBAT and lack alot of agency outside of direct COMBAT
>Yeah, but they got Tome of BATTLE.
>Tome of *BATTLE*
>B A T T L E

>>55367852
It gives _some_ out of combat utility. Not as much as full casters, but a lot more solid than core.

>>55367842
Except for the rope one (which is contingent on having something something to tie a rope around), and the berry one (at least the whole party isn't facing starvation penalties) those are all risks non-magical characters have to face as well, while having less tools at their disposal and lower chances for success. Nice strawmen, but try again.

>>55367764
That's not even really a solution
Legendary Resistance is just disguised railroading. Ironically enough it exists precisely because developers knew that casters can end encounters with a single spell.

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>>55367842
>It's totally fine that the class who can do everything can only do it based on having way more spell slots than they'll ever need. Totally fair and balanced against the classes who can do basically nothing but can do basically nothing as much as they want.

>>55367852
One thing that jumps to mind is there is a school which has attacks that bypass DR and hardness.

It's affectionately known as the dungeon redecoration tool.

You can get some out of combat utility, and with a bit of hombrewing they can keep up with wizards.

>>55367929
Again, those are COMBAT USES.

How blatant do I need to spell it out?

The problem between Martials and Casters is that OUT OF COMBAT, Martials are only good at hitting stuff, and maybe some athletics... meanwhile casters have spells for that and dozens of other ways to warp reality and essentially say "fuck the rules".


No amount of making martials better at COMBAT will fix the fact that casters have way more choices, agency, and roleplaying options OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.

>>55367967
I'm 90% sure their is one that lets you fly.

But in your example you point out knock. I don't have to get good at lockpicking, doors don't apply to me.

I can koolad man wherever I need to go.

And that's just one

>>55367258
but if they stop bitching about casters v. martials, then what would they bitch about instead?

you must remember that some people who play these games don't actually know how to communicate with people except through complaining

>>55367258
4e is the only reasonable version of DnD and even it is shit. Stop playing shitty games.

>>55367654
Sure is MtG in here

>>55367483
It's probably best not to make any arguments using simulacrum though, since it's one of the most poorly defined spells. At least it's officially limited to one, and no Wish abusing allowed, in AL.

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>>55367967
>>55368009

This really isn't much of a problem in 5e. I'm not talking about theory, I'm talking about the actual 5e games I've played and run.

There are some spells that duplicate some skills. They cost a spell-cast slot and a memorization slot, and often (especially in the case of social effects) aren't as good as the skill. Knock is loud, costs a slot, and doesn't help with traps.

Sure, the wizard can fly for ten minutes if he doesn't take haste today. If he does, he can't be stealthy at the same time (invisibility and fly are both concentration) and he's spending a slot he probably wanted to save for a fireball. The rogue can make climb and stealth checks all day at no cost, and can sneak attack every round if they're clever.

You guys act like spellcasters know every spell in the book and have infinite spell slots. What actually happens in a smart party is that the caster is the last resort, a limited resource. The question, when meeting each challenge, is "how do we solve this without burning half our daily shit?" And the answer is skill checks. That's what actually happens when you play.

You can theorycraft all day about how, if you had anyone to play with, the game would suck. In practice, it works fine.

>>55368302
Yes and if you don't want your wizards having infinite spells remember - spell transcription needs rare inks and such, so instead of allowing them to buy it, make them find it (As in some games such things might be incredibly rare)

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>>55368302
>>55368366
You're missing the point again.
There is no challenge that the rogue can complete that the wizard cannot also complete, about 80% of which he can do better.
>Sure, the wizard can fly for ten minutes if he doesn't take haste today
Congrats he's just eliminated basically any acrobatics of athletics-based challenge
>invisibility
Why do you even have a rogue at this point, because you have a choice between hiding or literally being invisible? Between picking a lock or just magically opening it. Yes, it's loud, but it works better than lock picking almost every time. Traps are irrelevant when you have summon spells. And when you get teleport spells, even that's obsolete.
>>55368366
>Martials and caster dichotomy isn't a problem
>So nerf casters
Pic related
This was basically what they tried to do with rituals in 4e and almost everyone hated them.

>>55367509
Well said.

>>55367770
>Whatever, the wizard can fly
That's great. Really. It is. But if there's any danger, it's better to cast it on someone with better AC, more HP, and who doesn't risk losing the spell when they take damage.
>The wizard can turn invisible, and also shapeshift into people, and also teleport if he gets caught.
Still have to roll stealth, still have to roll deception, and so much more likely to get caught because of it. Better off letting the shadow monk do this.
>the wizard knows goodberry
Goodberry is not a wizard spell. Wizards cannot make food. Goodberry is also only food. You need create water as well.
> the wizard has Enchanting spells, which are basically mind control
Charm Person? Still have to persuade them, but it's much easier, and they'll know what you did later. Suggestion and Dominate Person only works on a single, lone person. Mass Suggestion will only work out if the entire group fails their save. They're also all obvious spells, so you'll still piss people off for enchanting them, unless you're actually an Enchanter and they fail their save. Using dominate person to get your way is as subtle as turning your enemy into a newt, and as likely to earn you friends.
>Intentionally activating the deadfalls, alarms, and sealed room traps while alerting everyone around that he's breaking into a place.
It's like you've never heard of stealth.
>Relying on a 7th level spell to get to a place you've never seen when it can be blocked by a 6th level ritual or just fail on its own.
>>55367883
Except if you've climbed up, you should at least be able to hold a rope, wizards can't actually create food in any event, and "pissing off everyone within hundreds of feet while expending limited resources without any benefit" is not actually a risk that everyone faces. Nice strawman though.
>>55367902
>having way more spell slots than they'll ever need
1? 1 is more than they'll ever need? Because 1 is all you get for a long time for 6th through 9th level spells.

>>55367258

Those people did start playing 5e and are now continuing the argument in that system because 5e is really 3.5e lite with some 4e systems weaved in with different names so people don't sperg about them being present.

>>55368502
The problem is that Wizards have a very limited selection of spells to cast and take. Sure, at higher levels Wizards can use some of their older slots on fly or invisible or whatever, but by that point the Rogue has arbitrarily high skills that they can't fail in the same points and can do all those things while doing other shit, too. And they can have spells, too, if they want!

The Wizard being able to cast a spell and remove a challenge isn't really that much of a problem, because any challenge that can be easily taken care of with a Fly spell is probably a dc 12 at best, or, hell, just buy a Rope of Climbing, it costs 500gp tops and has the same effect without wasting a spell slot or a party member on the problem.

>>55368502
>about 80% of which he can do better.
This is the point. The point being: You're wrong. There's a few challenges that the rogue can complete that the wizard can't because of different attribute focuses and access to expertise, and of the ones they can both try, the rogue is better 99% of the time. There's also some things the wizard can do that the rogue cannot, and this is suddenly where the house of cards collapses? It's fucking fine.

Why do people always bring up Wizards in 5e caster supremacy threads? They're probably the worst of the full-caster classes with the sole exception of a large spell list which Bard can just steal the good bits of.

>>55368579
>arbitrarily high
>+9 instead of +5
Yeah, that 20% is absolutely absurd. I have no idea how skills being this powerful got through QA.

>>55368606
No, my point is that there are virtually no challenges that the rogue can complete that the wizard can't, but there are a vast number that the wizard can, but the rogue can't.
The rogue is the image of the utility martial, but they're not even close to the power of a utility caster.

>>55368613
Wizards probably have more "good bits" in their spell list alone than bards can ever steal, without even wondering if the bard would like some cleric, druid, or paladin spells instead.

>arbitrarily high
>+9 instead of +5
A level 11 rogue likely has a minimum stealth of 23. A level 11 bard, with expertise, has a minimum stealth that's likely 12 (or lower) and a level 11 wizard, still proficient, is likely to have a minimum stealth of 7. 23 is enough stealth to arbitrarily sneak past a lot of shit. Some people like the reliability you can get from a rogue, or pass without trace, but can't get from a wizard or invisibility.

>>55368678
>my point is that there are virtually no challenges that the rogue can complete that the wizard can't, but there are a vast number that the wizard can, but the rogue can't.
And my point is that you're just making up bullshit. Your assertion is a bald falsehood. At level 20, a wizard can prepare 25 spells, cast ~22 spells per day, some great portion of those prepared and slots spent or reserved are going to be combat spells. Counting rituals, assuming the rogue doesn't have ritual caster, there's probably a dozen difficulties the wizard is uniquely able to handle, or less. At level 20.

Meanwhile, the rogue can hide from a dog of the time and the wizard can't, to give an example of the kind of mundane task the wizard can't handle. There's no vast gulf if you actually play the game.

>>55368678
Name a challenge that a rogue can do that the wizard is better at.

Invisibility? For a minute or two, and before you turn invisible you have to make a very obvious and loud spell incantation.

flight to get over obstacles? Can't do that at the same time, and if you get hit you've got a good chance of falling.

Opening a door? You can open up to 4 a day, instead of doing something else that you're better at, and you have to make - again - A loud incantation that reveals your presence. It's only useful against magical doors with arbitrarily difficult DC's.

This breaks down even faster if you add in magical items. Utility magical items are cheap and they replace the Wizard even faster than your theoretical super-wizard - A single Marvelous Pigments makes a rogue into a goddamned monster.

>>55367293
Plenty of /pol/ garbage here

>>55368606
What you forget is that the wizard can also make other people succeed at those challenges. He can just cast fly/invisbility/whatever on someone else and suddenly you don't have to depend on the rogue for everything, because at least now someone else can tag along. Which is way better than having to listen for half an hour to some other dude jacking off about how good he is with skills woopdefuckingdoo

>>55368009
>I'm 90% sure their is one that lets you fly.
There is not.
There's one that lets you levitate, and there is one that lets you glide a little above the surface. While both have theoretical uses, they are nothing compared to fly, which was gotten half the campaign ago. (seriously, level 3 fly vs level 6-8 maneuvers)

>>55368870
I think there are few players who understand the glory of being a taxi, and also my point is that spells like invisibility don't work that way. Often, invisibility just enables stealth. It's not a replacement.

>It's wizard that, wizard this again
>While the druid laughs in bird form or dumps a bunch of spells somewhere
I love this. People always forget that other casters than wizards exist, and it doesn't have to be druids. You never have to play a "martial" ever. Want skills and spells? Bard. Want more punching and spells? Paladin
And so on.
Martials are the dunces of 3.5 and 5e because they restrict themselves to just one type of subsystem while other classes can have everything

>>55367651
>That's fucking level 8 and 9 spells though.
You don't get it.

To tg, ALL casters are assumed to have every spell at all times regardless of level. If you don't allow this, they will move the goalposts and strawman at an epic level.

>>55368953
>the glory of being a taxi
But that's where casters excel, not just wizards. Casters always work multiplicatively - they increase the efficency of the group to ridiciolous levels.
Sure, in 3.PF they can also become a party unto themselves if they so wish, but they could just as well put the whole group on steroids and smash encounters that way and that's also the case in 5e
Martials just don't have access to game changing buffs and debuffs

>>55368579
>The problem is that Wizards have a very limited selection of spells to cast and take.

At level 20, they have 44 spells to choose from.

Forty-fucking-four.

And any ritual they got, they don't even have to prepare beforehand. By the time your fighter takes off his armor to swim across a lake with his athletics, they have performed a water walk ritual on the entire party, without using a single slot.

>>55369386
>donning/removing armor
Please don't remind that these rules exist

>>55367516

Nope, WOTC team have confirmed that true polymorph is permanent once complete, no dispelling it

>>55369612
Wasn't it exactly the other way around? https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/723569059640401921

>>55369699
>Wasn't it exactly the other way around?
Yes. It was exactly the opposite.

How about limiting the wizards to one magical school? Only old elves should know more than two.

>>55369612
Also, isn't one of the options for true polymorph a dragon? And since dragons can shape change back to human at will after a successful True Polymorph spell, I'm not seeing much reason in not taking that path.

Hence my theory that all low level wizards should be considered only a larval form of dragon.

>>55369386
>By the time your fighter takes off his armor to swim across a lake with his athletics, they have performed a water walk ritual on the entire party, without using a single slot.
It only takes 5 minutes to doff heavy armor, 2.5 if you have help. It takes +10 minutes to cast a ritual. Checkmate, wizards.

>>55368959
So you agree that caster supremacy is an even bigger problem than most people say.

>>55367731
>Yes, and...?

Nobody reaches that level.

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>>55368502

well, being invisible won't stop something with blindsight or truesight, there are multiple different spells and abilities which no sell it, most predatory animals have keen senses meaning they can still smell and hear you even without blindsight, and all you need is a cloud of ash, dust or literally any other such powder to expose an invisible wizard, plus while a wizard is sneaking and invisible he must by necessity separate himself from the rest of his party who aren't invisible if he wants to scout ahead and move through a path, and he's the squishiest class in the game so if he is ever found, he dies immediately.

a flying wizard is almost as obvious as a dragon, and while he can certainly bypass many athletics or acrobatics based challenges flight is not going to stop him from eating a dozen flying scythe blades to the face in an intricate death machine, nor will it help him swim or move a rock.

a sufficiently powerful wizard can do great things, but it is incapable of doing them consistently or doing them on demand. a rogue or a fighter can perform their skills on demand but a wizard can't.

a wizard can cast invisibility if he prepared one of his small number of spells he has available, a rogue can do almost as well in most cases and better in some cases at all times.

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>>55368791
This anon gets it.

I know summer's almost over and you guys really want to keep shitposting about caster supremacy in a game you haven't played but in actual play it really isn't that much of an issue.

>>55372776
>in actual play
I think a lot of these posters have never done that.

>>55367258
I'll play 5E when it stops having worse martials than 3.5 did.

So how do we fix martials besides DM fiat?

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>>55372919

>>55372919
They're not broken.

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>>55372919

>>55372937
>>55372968
Both of these are good answers. I hope 5e gets a ToB of some kind. As it stands, only the Paladin is a decent martial, and it's only because he gets spells and smite.
Bard still does his job better with 2 levels of Paladin

>>55373072
You never will because 5E's fanbase is full of autistic screeching grognards.

>>55373072

I literally see nothing wrong with martials, whats wrong with them in your opinion?

>>55373197
Worse than casters at everything outside of combat
Only marginally more effective in combat
Have absolutely no interesting ways to contribute outside of combat

>>55373237
>>55373197
>marginally better in combat
not even really. They can TAKE hits alot better, but when it comes to actually doing good damage you basically sit and let the wizard release fireballs. Monsters get alot of health fairly fast and the damage martials do does not at all increase proportionally.

>>55373197
>list of interesting things martials can do in 5E:

>>55367258
Didn't fix the balance issues. Made CoDzillas less constantly overbuffed, but still busted.
>Level 20
>Fighter gets an additional attack
>Druid gets to Wild Shape at will
They just didn't care about anything beyond level 9.

>>55367842
The point stands that for virtually any potential specialty specialty, a Wizard can be better at it. Yes they are limited in resources per day, but you generally aren't trying to do a given task a massive number of times each day. IE if I wanted to play a super-infiltrator, a Wizard would likely be better than whatever Rogue/spymaster equivalent, simply because access to Invisibility, mobility spells, disguises and enchantments are so potent. The Rogue will be more consistent, but simply lacks these options that the wizard has. Limited access to greatness > Unlimited access to mediocrity.

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>>55373873

you've never seen an action surging level five great weapon master fighter cut an oni in half have you?

a wizard casting fireball at third level deals 8d6 fire damage in a 20 ft AOE or half damage on a successful saving throw. averaging at 28 damage on a failed saving throw or 14 on a successful save

a level five fighter hitting twice without an action surge can deliver 4d6+26 damage, averaging at 40 damage, to do this he has to land two hit rolls on the enemy with a +2 to hit however so its not exactly reliable, even assuming that the wizard rolls max damage on his fireball however, he only does 48 damage, wheras the fighter dealing max damage deals 50, actuall exceeding the wizard slightly.

martials do more damage than wizards in almost every appreciable sense except when fighting against hordes, which casters are good at.

>>55374171
Fireball is a spell for damaging hordes, though; it's silly to compare it to the single-target damage of a fighter. And assuming that the Fighter does make his two hits and deals his average of 40, we could even assume that half the enemies successfully save against Fireball (for average 21 damage) and a Fireball hitting two targets (not exactly a "horde") would still be doing more damage than the Fighter, but also at greater range.

Versus larger numbers of opponents, this of course slants WAY in the Wizard's favor, capable of dealing many times the Fighter's damage with each fireball or similar spell.

Versus huge single enemies, where the single-target damage of the Fighter shines, the Wizard still has access to spells like Haste to buff the rest of the team, or can use single-target debilitating spells like Confusion to make the target waste most of its actions, assuming they can't outright mind-control it to join their side.

Having the Fighter on the team is useful for tanking and dealing single-target damage, but if we already have a Fighter and a Wizard, the team would probably be served better by a second Wizard than a second Fighter.

>>55368502
>Why do you even have a rogue at this point, because you have a choice between hiding or literally being invisible?
Because "invisible" doesn't mean "quiet", and most things still fucking have ears, and noses to smell your stinky autist wizard. Any decent DM is still going to ask your invisible wizard for Stealth rolls, because Invisibility is not Stealth. The Stealth skill is an abstract for being quiet AND unseen AND keeping downwind so your scent doesn't tip off your target AND etc.

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>>55373987

gain resistance to all forms of damage except psychic, crit on 18's, 19's and 20's, automatically regenerate hitpoints equal to con mod+5, go beyond the strength and con score limit, go super saiyan, deal over three hundred damage in a surprise round, break the skill limitation and raise strength and con scores beyond human limitations, roleplay as kenshiro from fist of the north star, teleport through shadows, become the avatar, fly, give advantage to attack rolls to allies near you, see up to a mile away without difficulty, teleport, reflect, take twenty, steal low level spells, grapple giants, break the world record for the 100 meter sprint, redirect projectiles and become a human blender

these are the things I know off the top of my head

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>>55374327

I have repeated myself, shit

>>55374010
To be fair, 5 fighter attacks will kill a Druid out of wild shape then kill the druid, especially combined with Action Surge for 10 attacks, which they can do after a full run towards said druid.

>>55368791
>It's only useful against magical doors with arbitrarily difficult DC's
Not quite. Knock is for when you need that shit opened RIGHT GODDAMN NOW and you're not worried about making noise to do it. It's the Wizard version of chopping the treasure chest's lock off.

>>55374327
The vast majority of those aren't interesting and a lot of them have been done before but better too.

>>55368791
>Very obvious and loud spell incantation
"Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of Silence, such as one created by the Silence spell, can’t Cast a Spell with a verbal component."
Nowhere that I can find says that it "obvious and loud". It seems like you could even whisper it; you just can't be gagged or otherwise unable to speak.
>For a minute or two
If you need more than this, you're doing something wrong.
>Flight over obstacles
Or teleport...? Dimension door would be the stealthier option.
>Opening a door?
Why are you wasting your spells on opening doors? Just take the keys from a guard or something. If you're going to need to open tons of locked doors, it makes more sense to get the single object that bypasses all of them.
>Magical items
Wizard gets them too


Meanwhile, the Wizard can:
-Perfectly disguise themself
-Move quickly over vast distances
-Charm, mindcontrol, mind-read and so forth targets
-Use divinations and summons to quickly and efficiently gather intel
-Make illusions to confuse and trick opponents, indirectly controlling their movements

The Wizard is a much better infiltrator/scout than the Rogue is.

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>>55374302

wizards lack a decent source of on target burst damage on the lower levels though, I can't think of a single target spell that a level five wizard can cast that can beat the damage of an optimised fighter of the same level.

and I'll challenge you on the fact that you'd rather have a second wizard than a second fighter, because there is fuck all out of combat that two wizards can do that one wizard can't and in combat if you don't blow up what you're fighting immediately then one of those wizards is fucking dead before he gets his next turn, at least in low levels where most games actually take place.

I mean in any decent adventuring party some source of healing is a must, and a wizard can't do that so if you do take two wizard that means the third party member needs to be a healer and the fighter needs to become the fucking wall in which case he should roll a barbarian instead.

however fighters can control the frontline on their own, allowing for a much greater diversity of builds for the remaining two players and meaning that though the third person needs to go with some heals he doesn't need to go dedicated healsut, he can pick up a druid or a warcleric or even a bard instead. besides fighters are probably the third most diverse class in terms of build possibility so there won't be much overlap between the two.

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>>55373072
>I hope 5e gets a ToB of some kind
I convinced my DM to let me use this for my rogue, mainly because I missed Smokesticks and all those other fun items that were completely left out of 5e for some inane reason. He's okay with most everything above "Anatomic Combat", though he's still on the fence regarding Sunder. Doesn't bother me much, because Rogue, but our Barbarian could likely make use of the rule if allowed and inventive enough to utilize it.

>>55374327
Wizards, Clerics, Bards, and Druids can do all of that except better

>>55374490
And the Bard is even better because they get a large chunk of those utility spells the Wizard gets, can steal the ones they don't get but want, can be a monster in combat, and even if they don't even touch spells they're great out of combat. That's the real caster supremacy right there.

>>55374327
A fair bit of those are either temporary, things martials can do and sometimes sooner, level 20 things, or a once per rest. A cleric could contact god at level 5 I think it was?

>>55374518
The main difference is that a munchkin 'that guy' rarely picks bard

>>55374490
>If you need more than this, you're doing something wrong
Sneaking through an enemy checkpoint tends to take a lot longer than "a minute or two" if it's anything bigger than a toll bridge.

>>55374494
What's wrong with the Anatomic combat section and below?

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>>55374490
>The Wizard is a much better infiltrator/scout than the Rogue is.

That's not the half of it, the bard gets full spellcasting AND skills in the bargain.

And the rogue doesn't get any better at using skills after level 11 (except for their shitty capstone) at the same time casters are getting their best spells. Hope you didn't plan on doing anything useful at higher levels.

>>55374492
"Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard" still holds true. At lower levels, the handful of parlor tricks that Wizards have isn't potent enough to match the consistent reliability of non-caster classes (Fighter for combat, Rogue for skillmonkey, etc.).

I believe much of this debate revolves around how these operate at mid levels, say 10 or so, which is not an uncommon point to reach in normal campaigns, and is well into where Wizards and other casters start dominating (maybe literally) other classes. Wizards get access to more abilities which are increasingly powerful much faster than other classes do, many of which render other possible specialties obsolete.

As far as second fighter/wizard, I agree Fighter would be the more interesting option (more build space, etc.) but from a practical standpoint, especially if you're playing at mid or higher levels, the Wizard is going to bring more to the table. I was also assuming the party had a Rogue and a Cleric (or classes which fill those roles), and the question was just of doubling something up.

As per my earlier "render other possible specialties obsolete" point, this is one of my biggest pet peeves about how magic is handled in D&D (and PF). It was somewhat addressed in >>55367770. There are just so many character concepts which aren't viable because magic does a better job of it. Master linguist: Comprehend Languages and Tongues. Someone who controls a web of spies: Divinations and summons. Spymaster: Enchantment and Illusions. Someone who specializes in travelling through dangerous environments: Protection from Elements, or just Teleport to your destination. These are potentially interesting characters, and interesting obstacles, which the existence of Wizards just renders moot. To add insult to injury, a single Wizard is capable of doing ALL these things. That strikes me as very poor game design.

>>55374536
No. All checks involving casters are staged to give the caster every advantage.

>>55374536
>>55374599
Yeah you have to go out of your way to make using magic a worse option in any situation.

>>55374563
I'm just not particularly interested in any of it; didn't mean to imply that I disliked it, or that my DM did. The Class adjustments and Feats don't really apply to Rogues, either. I'm just happy to get Aim, Feint, and Goad as well as a bunch of neat toys the next time we get a chance to go shopping.

I also forgot to mention that he expressly nixed Lunge, because it's essentially free Reach if you're proficient in Acrobatics. I'm okay with that.

>>55374427

punching something so hard it explodes and going super saiyan are more interesting than most of what wizards can do.

>>55374490

arcane trickster rogues are better than wizards at spying and scouting because they get all the typically low level abilities that you're talking about while still being a rogue.

>>55374529

a cleric's chance of calling upon dm fiat are minuscule and start at level 10, besides casters are at their absolute weakest in low levels and martials reign supreme until about level five with the exception of the moon druid who does nothing after his time in the sun is over

>>55374518
>>55374570
I agree, if you wanted to do "magic skillmonkey" that the Bard is easily the better pick among those three. It also really highlights how awful the Rogue is, by so clearly doing its jobs better than it.

>>55367258
Why would you use a self portrait for your OP image?

>>55374628
>arcane trickster rogues
That's being a rogue with some wizard stuff because the base rogue isn't good enough. Isn't that just more evidence in favor of "the character with more magic will do it better"? As per >>55374518 >>55374570 >>55374632, the Bard is going to be even better.

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>>55374661

a wizard with rogue stuff is worst than a rogue with wizard stuff seems more like its in support of rogues than wizards, of course bards reign supreme because the class is an abortion

>>55374628
>arcane trickster rogues are better than wizards at spying and scouting because they get all the typically low level abilities that you're talking about while still being a rogue.

AT's spell progression is too shit to compete with real casters on any level.

>>55374676
I'm not sure that Arcane Trickster Rogue is better than a Wizard, though. While they do get access to a bunch of the low-level utility spells which put them leagues ahead or regular Rogues, they still lack the more powerful options that Wizards would get. They can't teleport cross-country, they don't get even Dimension Door until very late in their progression, they can't specifically prepare the spells they need for a given mission, they can't Dominate Person people to guide them through a facility, they can't use Scrying to scout, they can't use Planar Binding to bind outsiders to scout for them, etc. etc.

For infiltration: Bard > Wizard > Arcane Trickster > Regular Rogue

>>55374595
It's almost like you've never even played the game and barely even read the book, but surely ignorance can't be the source of all your complaints.

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>>55374595
at level 11 a wizard gets his 6th level spellslot at the same time that the fighter gets three attacks, a wizard can actually hold his own and be useful now instead of contributing little like he is pre level five but in terms of direct single target damage a level 11 fighter can still beat disintegrate, one of the most iconic direct damage spells in the game so long as he's optimised to murder and actually tries, (action surges)

a action surging great weapon master blender fighter with a greatsword makes 6 melee attacks, hitting on a 7+ now thanks to another feat and maxing out his strength score, assuming he hits all six he does 12d6+102 averaging out at 143damage, even if he only hits half of them he still does 6d6+51, averaging out at 72 damage

a wizard casting his single 6th level spellslot on the most damaging single target damage spell that the wizard has access to (disintegrate) will either deal 75 damage if the target passes its saving throw however no damage is dealt at all, so the fighter is still better at single target.

the wizard is of course much better at AOE, fuck he was better at AOE at level five never mind level 11, and he's got access to a lot of more powerful spells now. but those spells are used with overwhelming regularity as cc, Out of combat utility and AOE, never as single target burst, because the fighter will still be doing it better.

and I'm ok with that, because a martials life is built around war, so it makes sense that it would excell at it, and there are a lot of interesting things a fighter can do in combat, like superiority dice or the arcane archer subclass, it can even learn a little magic itself if it wants. but at the end of the day its a fighter, it fights.

>>55374890
>a action surging great weapon master blender fighter with a greatsword makes 6 melee attacks, hitting on a 7+ now thanks to another feat and maxing out his strength score, assuming he hits all six he does 12d6+102 averaging out at 143damage, even if he only hits half of them he still does 6d6+51, averaging out at 72 damage
Also crits happen. Disintegrate doesn't crit.

>>55374978
Crits are pretty awful in 5E.

>>55374890
I agree that in general, the Fighter will be superior at single-target damage.

>used with overwhelming regularity as cc, out of combat utility and AoE
Using something like Black Tentacles as an example, the Wizard can potentially tie up a large portion of a group of enemies while his teammates finish off the unaffected group. I have been stating that Fighters are important to have in a party, and this job is one of the main reasons; actually dealing the damage to choice targets while the Wizard plays tactician and controls the encounter.

While in this situation both individuals are important, it is arguably the Wizard who is having the larger impact on the battlefield as a whole.

5e did a good job of making the Fighter at least viable in combat as a source of damage, as opposed to 3.PF where the only way for them to even be marginally useful was to specialize in tripping or a similar gimmick. The problem is that only so much of the game is dedicated to combat, and even in combat the Wizard has more tools at their disposal, even if the Fighter is pursuing options like those you list. The Fighter will be consistently useful in combat and later gets a handful of toys for outside, but the Wizard is just applicable and influential in way more situations.

I suppose I'm not really arguing "Caster Superiority" (I'm not OP) so much as "Casters still have too many toys compared to other classes".

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>>55374989
>Crits are pretty awful in 5E
Elaborate.

>>55375021
Hmm let's see
>can do double damage with pretty high frequency as long as you can hit the enemy
>can max damage and have lots of crit-conditional abilities in a game where you can throw tons of damage die
>...can throw double the damage die 5% of the time if you're not a Champion and maybe an extra one if you're a half-orc

>>55367293
All of which falls apart with a single dispel magic or anti-magic shell.

Checkmate, atheists.

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>>55375215
Oh, dear. Another person who understands just enough about statistics to make himself look like a complete fool.

>>55375303
Or I could just know what I was talking about. Crits in 5E are a very small DPR increase.

>>55375336

unless you're playing a rogue, or a half orc barbarian, or a champion fighter with a greatsword.

>>55367258
3.5e is an unbalanced piece of garbage, but at least it's a fun unbalanced piece of garbage. 5e isn't even that.

>>55375408
its unbalanced sure but me and me friends still have fun. Not the systems fault that you're shit and cant just enjoy it.

>>55374614
Anatomic combat seems pretty busted, actually. +5 to AC for guaranteed crits seems a bit strong. DR Armor seems clunky, but the combat actions and martial dice sections seem good.

>>55375373
Nope, all of those are still very low. They can't compare at all to a 30% chance multiplied by your confirm chance to do double damage minimum.

>>55374113
>Yes they are limited in resources per day, but you generally aren't trying to do a given task a massive number of times each day.

Every spell used for getting around the environment is one less buff spell or one less damage spell. Using spell for that reason should be a trade off but it ends not being one for 3 reasons.

>GMs hand out more stats then they should so every caster as a 18 based in their casting sat. Hello extra spells per day.
>Not running four hard combats per day in the field, or two hard and one very hard combat per day. Make it were resources are needed for combat.
> Running the game at too damn high of a level. High level games, or exp in free build systems, always break the damn system. DD is not special in that.

Do those three things in your game the issues with caster do not disappear but they do become a lot smaller.

>>55375447
i'm not saying i CAN'T enjoy 5e, i'm just saying i'd enjoy 3.5e a whole lot more

>>55367454
>Stacking spells is NOT the problem with Casters vs Martials
This is an outright lie, a lot of the bullshit that makes casters invincible are combos. The argument of the toolkit is usually a white-room theory craft where the wizard has all the answers all the time for no reason other than "of COURSE I have Y spell prepared, why wouldn't you?" to every single question including that of spells like Locate City. Many of the "toolkit" spells often come with huge drawbacks that tend to fuck the caster over, such as the poster-boy answer to rogues, the spell Knock, which causes EVERYONE AROUND YOU TO KNOW WHERE YOU ARE in addition to whatever materials/spell slots you have to waste casting it.

>>55375464

half orc barbarians with brutal critical spit out 5d12's with a great axe hit at level twenty, which is significantly higher than 1d12

>>55375656
The real answer to Rogue is why Rogue instead of Unseen Seer.

>>55367676
>>55367888
>Polymorph boss
>Toss him down cliff
>He takes massive fall damage
>Reverts right back to his previous form with full health as though nothing happened
Somebody needs to read the rules.

>>55375508
So DM's who don't dm well. I agree.

>>55375692

well at least he's at the bottom of a cliff now. that may give us time for a short rest so long as he can't fly

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>>55375710
Anon, if you have polymorph, I guarantee that boss can fly, or at least teleport.

>>55375672
Here's what you get if you account for crits in your calculations.

level 1 horc barb with greataxe: 6.8 + STR damage per hit

level 20 horc barb with greataxe: 7.8 + STR damage per hit

Fuckin' extraordinary.

>>55375672
Which is 1.625 DPR without advantage, 3.16875 with.

>>55375508
Four evenly balanced combats per day has always been a mechanical ideal at best. Many people use D&D for games that involve combats interspersed, sometimes with in-game days between them. Four combats per day means in-character essentially nonstop fighting, which isn't going to be the norm. Having the balance of a class rely around that sort of very specific campaign structure is very poor design.

>More stats than they should
It is trivially easy to start with an 18 in your key stat in most stat systems, especially with races that boost stats. This is a shortcoming of not having all the stats important enough that dumping is punished. Poor design.

>Too high of a level
Not all games fall apart as the game progresses. This is just D&D/PF being shitty at design.

>>55374490
Knock creates a loud booming noise out to 200 feet in 5e. It does not help for quiet infiltration

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>Play OSR
>Wizards can't scale anywhere near as fast
>Their top tier combos that "break the game" can only be MAYBE cast once or twice per day
>Can't 15-minute workday it though because wandering encounters are so much more deadly that you can't risk sleeping in a dungeon unless you are desperate
>High level creatures also have rising, unavoidable magic resistance
>There's no skill system; everybody can do everything outside of combat provided they roleplay well enough
>Wizard has no need to cast the spell when the whole party are equally good at climbing ropes, signing documents, and walking across the street without an adult as well as everyone else is
>See threads like this
>Laugh

>>55375806
knock is not mentioned in that post

>>55375818
man, how do i get into the OSR movement? where's a good starting point?

>>55375672
Right, now let's talk Pathfinder. Let's take a generic Falchion Fighter from level 20, say he hits for 2d4+40 after Power Attacking and is fighting something with jacked up AC. He's hitting 75% of the time on his first attack, 50% on his second, 25% on his third, and his fourth isn't hitting at all so we'll ignore it. Level 20 Fighters in PF automatically confirm criticals and increase the crit multiplier of the weapon by 1.

This is what the Fighter's DPR without crits looks like:

.75*45+.5*45+.25*45 = 67.5 DPR

This guy's crits, by themselves, add more than that, and here's the math showing it:

.3*2*45+.3*2*45+.25*2*45 = 76.5 DPR

Do you understand now?

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>>55375865
Generally, it's widely agreed that the two best starting points are either Basic Fantasy RPG or Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Both have their pros and cons. BFRPG is 100% freer than free and is more accurate to the B/X feel. LotFP uses a lot of fantastic new rulings but I don't think is free any longer, but I haven't checked in awhile.

Pick up one of those, then read through this, because adjusting to OSR takes a bit of fine tuning and is a completely different mindset than what you're used to playing today. Then pick up a beginning adventure, some friends, and play.

If you wind up liking it, you'll probably want to move onto something a little more complex, like OSRIC or AD&D 2e, but don't tell /osrg/ I told you about 2e cause the fence is split on that one (but it's really good and solid if you throw away the non-weapon proficiency entirely)

>>55375877
>Right, now let's talk Pathfinder.
Stopped reading right there. Why are we still talking about shit universally acknowledged as old and busted?

>>55375961
groovy

>>55376029
Because someone was jacking off to the worst crits in D&D.

>>55375508
>Hello extra spells per day.
There are no extra spells per day for high stats in 5E.

>>55375865
Dungeon Crawl Classics or AD&D 2e

>>55377115
>>5537586
2e isn't really "OSR"

I'd start with 1e AD&D or Basic id you don't want to read much. Also check out RFI podcast to get a better idea on the *feel* of those games.

>>55367454
5e explicitly says invisible creatures still have to use stealth to be silent. And since there are so few spells I love players wasting spells and expecting me to be some asshole DM giving them a long rest every encounter.

Amazing how those players go back to 3.pf because it has "personality" they lack.

>>55377171
If 2e isn't OSR for you then you have a very narrow view of OSR.

You can run any of the classic modules in 2e without any problems at all.

>>55367293
I'd honestly say that this place has gotten much worse than /v/, if only because /v/ is somewhat self-aware of the fact that they're angry shitters who despise their hobby for one reason or another.

fa/tg/uys on the other hand can't agree as far as what makes a good campaign or a good system, so they throw each other's taste around and accuse everyone who disagrees with them of "playing the game wrong."

>>55369012
Nice strawman

You'd think you faggots would get the message after posting in the same thread for almost a decade but this is why we don't dump INT folks.

>>55370327
So while the party is spending 10 minutes to help you take your pants off, the wizard is spending 10 minutes to make it so you never get to use your athletics roll?

>>55375692
>>55375722
>Boss gets polymorphed into a newt
>Thrown down a cliff
>Reverts to natural size
>Gets crushed by the cliff faces that its original body is too large to fit through.
gg motherfuckers!

>>55367842
>1
If the climber fails a roll, there goes the climber and a few spell slots to heal them up to full (assuming they survive the fall).
>2
The "specialist" isn't really all that special unfortunately. Hell, a Bard is technically a better spy than the resident Rogue is since they get expertise on top of being a full caster.
>3
Goodberries can sustain a group of up to 10 people you for an entire day and last 24 hours. It's barely a cost at all.
>4
I'm sorry, are you saying that diplomacy is the safer option when people misinterpret shit and get angry over misunderstandings all the time? Mind control is a much safer alternative than a charisma roll.
>5
*Teleports out* "pssh, nothing personal kid."

>>55375267
Hell, just cast silence on em. Can't cast if you can't speak. If it's a wizard, take his book!

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>>55379707
>sorcerer's face when

>>55369887
>How about limiting the wizards to one magical school?
Never works, because some schools like transmutation and conjuration give you a plethora of utility to work with while evocation is stuck being a one-trick pony that gets BTFO'd in most situations that fall outside its niche.

>>55367770
Why I ban all magic from my games, or just don't play systems with magic. Magic is boring.

>>55379691
wow, you clearly don't actually play the game ever.

>>55372919
Ban casters, like any competent DM

>>55373197
The problem with martials is that most of the shit that gives them utility outside of combat is locked behind a resource that you never really get enough of until you've already fallen behind the curve.

Like superiority dice are a great mechanic and battlemasters would be great martial classes, but you only get like a handful of them and even then, you have to take a short rest in order to replenish them.

Actually, that's my problem with 5e in general, it introduces a lot of great mechanics for you to use but you never really get enough resources to actually play around with them, so you end up defaulting to the most boring shit possible because it's the only thing you have that's actually free to use.

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>>55367454
What are some non-rules light alternatives to D&D/Pathfinder?

>>55374307
>Implying
You martials are the ones running around in 25kg of metal for days on end and you're accusing wizards of being stinky?

Hello pot, meet kettle.

>>55374660
Are you blind or did you just dump WIS IRL?

>>55367258
Non-spellcasting classes need more class features. Feats are not class features.

>>55379761
Why do you always say this when you've run out of things to argue?

>>55379787
Martials still suck ass bro, regardless of whether you ban casters or not.

If anything, ban all martials.

>>55379893
Casters are boring and not fun. Like Superman

>>55379912
Martials are still worse.

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I ban like 1/3 of the spells from the PH anyway. fuck teleport fuck poly fuck fly fuck invisibility

>>55379938
What spells do you allow?

>>55367258
Idea. What if there was a limited amount of magic in any given person and a wizard who burned through it would never be able to cast again?

>>55380051
Awful idea, because it'd basically mean that players are severely discouraged from using more than half of the CRB while at the same time limiting the amount of challenges you can actually throw at the party.

Like something like a Terrasque would pretty much be impossible to kill now, because nobody in the setting is able to practice their magic and so, wouldn't have any experience in casting the higher leveled spells.

>>55380087
I doubt they would be fighting the terrasque in such a game, anon.
You act like there isn't a human behind what is encountered that can tailor the campaign to what the players bring.
A game I was in had no primary casters until level 9, and we not only were successful, but we had fun figuring out solutions to things that would have been magic'd away otherwise.
Then some cunt brought in a wizard, and the game was honestly a lot less fun.

>>55379691
>climbing
Is different now. It's actually doable.
>Specialist spy
The rogue actually is special. You can't just say "full caster" as an argument.
>Goodberries
Are food, not water, not a wizard spell, not a bard spell, not a warlock spell, not a sorcerer spell. Druid/Ranger. Clerics can also create food, but it's a higher level spell.
>Diplomacy
Is much safer than trying to use mind control. Mind control means diplomacy has failed.
>Knock -> Teleport away.
Ok? So you're just giving up?

Alternatively
>You clearly don't actually play the game.

>>55380023
I cap the level for spellcasting classes to 10. You have to multiclass after that.
In addition to that there are some bans like:
all the plane stuff, shapeshift/poly, teleport/portals, resurrecting, dominate monster and similar, too destructive spells that destroy the terrain.
These spells exist in the world and there are powerful lvl20 casters, but are extremely rare and almost always somehow restrained by something
in the current setting. Usually deities.

>>55380120
>You act like there isn't a human behind what is encountered that can tailor the campaign to what the players bring.
And let me tell you, there are a lot of things in the MM that your average martial will not be able to kill without the aid of some form of magic.
>A game I was in
Irrelevant, not even sure why you even bothered to bring this up.

>>55380087
>Like something like a Terrasque would pretty much be impossible to kill now
Is this not THE POINT of a Terrasque?
What if it was made with the caveat that there was some sort of permit on allowing cantrips?
Hell, maybe at higher levels, wizards could learn to cast certain spells without burning through mana or whatever.
Or they could ask for mana from other people. Or maybe their reservoir of magic increases by level, so they have to mete out their higher-level powers?
The idea is to make bringing out a ninth-level spell a cosmic event rather than one good night's sleep away. Injuries would fucking hurt. Magic weapons are seriously goddamn valuable because magic damage is super important.

>>55380147
>Irrelevant
Entirely so, because many people argue that you NEED a caster or some manner of high power magic merely to survive, when the reality is that it only becomes easier and requires less thought.

>>55380129
>Is different now. It's actually doable.
"doable," you're still comparing a percentage chance of fucking up to an auto-succeed at the cost of a spell slot.
>The rogue actually is special.
Not really. Even Arcane Tricksters make better Rogues than a non-magical one.
>Are food, not water, not a wizard spell, not a bard spell, not a warlock spell, not a sorcerer spell.
And? Keep in mind, the Bard can steal two spells from any spell list so they could just as easily have goodberries as well.
>Is much safer than trying to use mind control.
Not really, because you're still dealing with an irrational being who could just decide to throw you in the gulag just for wasting their time. At least if they're mind-controlled, you can do your thing and then GTFO before the spell wears off.
>So you're just giving up?
Nope, the information I gained is infinitely more valuable in the long run and I still have a plethora of options at my disposal.

>>55379821
I'm a big fan of Burning Wheel. Really cool character creation, unique approach to dealing with certain obstacles. Mad Summoners with a Fear of Cheese.

>>55380133
Do enemy casters still have access to these banned spells?

a lot of the broken stuff required being a powergaming munchkin, and abusing combos that DMs can see a mile away, or are otherwise easily limited by the DM restricting long rests are changing the scenario to match the players

if you act like a normal person and do not heap tons of spells together, martials can generally keep up, it's only the the bard who can really make all classes useless, and even then its nowhere near as ridiculous as 3.5e

>>55380162
>Is this not THE POINT of a Terrasque?
There's a difference between being virtually impossible to kill and actually being impossible to kill. A terrasque can only be defeated using magic, anything else will just heal after a while and you're right back in the same position as you started.
>What if it was made with the caveat that there was some sort of permit on allowing cantrips?
Better
>The idea is to make bringing out a ninth-level spell a cosmic event rather than one good night's sleep away.
If you're at a level where you're bringing out 9th level spells, you have every goddamned right to use it whenever you fucking want. Keep in mind, you only get one 9th level spell slot as a full caster.

>>55367454
>Invisibility
>low dex mage
Pretty weak considering the bonus a rogue would have stacked then.

>>55380203
>Entirely so
Maybe if you're an idiot.
>many people argue that you NEED a caster or some manner of high power magic merely to survive
In most cases, anything a martial can do, a mage can do so more effectively at less cost. Why, for example, would you risk falling down a hole when you could have a mage with access to Fly and Featherfall on hand?

>>55380275
at level 5 that would eat up your only level 3 slot, and leave you vulnerable to attack

and if you have to leave the way you came, you might have no spell slots at all if you were given a long fight

>>55367770
Wonderful boy. You wasted all your spell in the first room of the dungeon and there's nowhere safe you can rest. Not that you have the time to rest anyway, let me remind you what is a stake.

>>55380275
Why are you acting like the absolute best thing is always on hand and MUST be used as tho it's the only option?

>>55380298
>at level 5 that would eat up your only level 3 slot, and leave you vulnerable to attack
Okay? That would still allow the party to scale a high ass plane without any risk of falling to our deaths.
>if you have to leave the way you came, you might have no spell slots at all if you were given a long fight
Literally as easy as jumping off the cliff and using featherfall mate.

>>55380252
>There's a difference between being virtually impossible to kill and actually being impossible to kill. A terrasque can only be defeated using magic, anything else will just heal after a while and you're right back in the same position as you started.
Not in 5e.
>If you're at a level where you're bringing out 9th level spells, you have every goddamned right to use it whenever you fucking want.
Why? That's like saying if you mastered swordsmanship you have the right to never let age take away your strength.
>>55380275
>In most cases, anything a martial can do, a mage can do so more effectively at less cost. Why, for example, would you risk falling down a hole when you could have a mage with access to Fly and Featherfall on hand?
But that's exactly the point. Obstacles have more weight. The cost is permanent, rather than temporary. Sure, Feather Fall is useful NOW, but if you need that mana LATER and it's not there, you're up a creek.

I had even suggested having wizards remove the low-level mana cost at later levels as a matter of spell mastery, so you have the low-level utility spells more often. Mightier spells define wizards. Perhaps I'd modify it so that an enemy's successful save refunded mana, like the magic rebounded and wizards have mastered the ability to exploit it. Legendary Resistance would be a matter of breaking that 'rule', and the mana would be expended as the spell effect is shattered by the mighty enemy.

>>55380299
What, and you think the martials are going to stay at full health for the entirety of the dungeon or still have resources by the end?

In 5e, everyone is basically a shittier version of their 4e counterparts, so why even sit there and pretend that people aren't going to be itching for rests between rooms, especially when some casters have the option of replenishing some of their spell slots with a short rest?

>>55380328
Why wouldn't it be on hand and why wouldn't I use it if it allows us to overcome an obstacle as quickly and effectively as humanly possible?

>>55380220
No. maybe as supernatural for monsters

>>55380275
>n most cases, anything a martial can do, a mage can do so more effectively at less cost
Some things they can do more effectively. Some things they can do less effectively. Everything they do has more cost.

>>55380355
>Why wouldn't it be on hand
A disingenuous assumption, I can count on one hand how many times I've seen casters keep featherfall on hand.
>why wouldn't I use it if it allows us to overcome an obstacle as quickly and effectively as humanly possible
Because your white room scenario benefits your argument.
>>55380360
I love players who are more concerned that the GM dares to withhold something from them.

>>55380331
you are still using your strongest spell slot to briefly be better at something for a short while

eating up your best spell slot to cross a hole sounds impressive but it could kill you when you merely have magic missiles when you get across

>>55380345
If you played 5e, you'd know that martials are infinitely less relying on their resources that casters. Much less fragile too.

Plus, a martial doesn't need to use any resource to do a skill test. While the caster has to waste a Flight or Knock spell, the fighter just climb up the cliff or the Rogue can just disarm the trap, no resource expended.

>>55380345
a wizard only gets half his levels worth of spells on a short rest
at level 5 you will only get a single extra level 3

a fighter gets both action surge and second wind, and had bigger hit dice to heal with on a short rest

if you are forced through a long dungeon, a fighter benefits more from multiple short rests, while a wizard will only benefit from the first

>>55380343
>That's like saying if you mastered swordsmanship you have the right to never let age take away your strength.
Do you have brain damage or just low INT?
>Obstacles have more weight.
They really don't.
>The cost is permanent, rather than temporary.
And what, you expect the martials to pick up the slack when they can barely handle their own weight class?

Let me tell you what's going to happen in this system. First off, most people aren't going to play it and the ones that do will focus more on trying to maximize their mana by focusing on lower level spells that are as ubiquitous as possible so they never get caught with their pants down and then they'll spam these spells in every other encounter until either they quit or the campaign ends.

And you know how I know this will happen? Because that's basically how martials work in 5e and part of the reason why they're so boring. If you're given a resource, you should let people play around with it, not arbitrarily restrict it.

>>55380397
Not a problem. Magefags on tg seem to always have the perfect spell, unlimited spells, and layered contingency, plus other nifty features.

>>55380388
>A disingenuous assumption, I can count on one hand how many times I've seen casters keep featherfall on hand.
The only time I've neglected to prepare featherfall was when I gained Ring of Featherfall during a campaign. It's a great spell that many people don't consider until they end up falling down a well and breaking their necks on sharp rocks.
>Because your white room scenario benefits your argument.
As opposed to your white room where mages always pick random spells that's never relevant to any given scenario you come up with?
>I love players who are more concerned that the GM dares to withhold something from them.
Because usually it's only done for some power tripping faggotry that doesn't even serve to improve the quality of the campaign. I say this as the victim of many campaigns where we, as a party of martials, dealt with nothing less than spell casters of equal level while the GM banned us from being mages ourselves.

>>55379483
/tg/s problems lie a little bit deeper than that though. For starters, it's hard for people who are the most prone to the nerd social fallacies to have the backbone to stand up to an argument, especially a crowd that is largely based in the current age of college politics.

On /v/, if people start arguing over something, people generally will leave them alone, or join in with really good points. It doesn't have to be related to video game, and often times it's shit flinging, but the discussion is pushed quite a bit and people tend to learn from the experiences.

On /tg/, I've noticed that even the most polite discussion about game design and rules tends to have shitposters coming into the middle of it and telling them to stop shitposting without actually reading the discussion. Even worse is people here are harder to press them into taking constructive criticism. I can't tell you how many times I've commented on someone's design to be met with 3 or 4 posters telling me I'm wrong without countering any of my arguments or points.

/tg/ is worse than /v/ because nobody is willing to talk critical analysis or even just think about what they're saying. They meet all points of criticism or people asking for advice with "just homebrew it" and then leave it at that.

>>55380366
>Some things they can do less effectively.
Such as?

>>55367770
>the wizard can fly
Doesnt mean shit in a dungeon.

>the wizard is [better at stealth]
Invisibility requires stealth rolls. Its better to use defensively.

>wizard
>goodberry

>wizard has mind control
>expecting a wizard to mind control an entire courtroom as opposed to a bard with charisma and performance checks.

>traps and locks
>alerting the entire dungeon to unlock a fucking chest
>wasting high level slots to summon critters to do the rogues fucking job

The wizard at max level is a God, but how much max level D&D do you play?
How many campaigns have you played in 5e where you got past 10th level?
You're a fucking retard.

>>55380490
>white room
In the real world, casters only have some many spells known and prepped, and use slots on spells that have general purpose.
>Because usually it's only done for some power tripping faggotry
>bitching that you don't have something
Called it.

>>55380397
>you are still using your strongest spell slot to briefly be better at something for a short while
Okay? What else am I going to use that spell slot for? Direct damage is the Martial's forte and there are other spells that I can use to defend myself should the need present itself.

>>55377171
What?
>>55377244
2e is GOAT edition. I've been running the same campaign since 1996 with it.

>>55380413
If YOU played 5e, you'd realize that martials are still going to be running out of HP much faster than your average mage is going to run out of spells, especially if they fail an important roll, like an athletics roll to keep from falling off a cliffside or to disable a trap that could easily oneshot you.

>>55380521
>>55377244 #
>2e is GOAT edition. I've been running the same campaign since 1996 with it.
^this guy and I will get along well. He shows good taste.

>>55380432
>at level 5 you will only get a single extra level 3
Or I could divide that so that I regain three level 1 spells or a level 2 spell and a level 1 spell. Also, contrary to what you think, I don't HAVE to spend any spells but the Fighter will NEED to trade some HP whenever we run into an encounter, especially if their roll has them trading hits in the front row.

>>55380453
>Do you have brain damage or just low INT?
Except that what I said (that the fact that you mastered how to use a limited resource doesn't make that resource any less limited) is actually related to your protest (that you should have the ability to use 9th level spells as you will if you're able to acquire them).
>They really don't.
And why not? An obstacle that requires you take the hard way or that you use a limited resource rather than a regular one somehow doesn't have a greater threat?
>And you know how I know this will happen? Because that's basically how martials work in 5e and part of the reason why they're so boring. If you're given a resource, you should let people play around with it, not arbitrarily restrict it.
So since you like casting my words out of their intended light, let me return the favor. What I'm hearing is "But that makes adventures really hard and require planning and resources other than magic!" Yeah, but that was kind of the damn point, in case you didn't pick up on it.
If people aren't going to make it easier for martials, then the easiest balance is making it harder for mages so everyone's fighting on semi-even terrain.

But what we really seem to have a difference in is "But I want to play a game with X tone", while I'm proposing Y. Like how roguelikes are deadly and that's sort of the point, but some people don't like playing it. So why don't we take our respective badwrongfun in opposite directions before someone decides to argue about Warhammer factions in this thread.

>>55380538
The point about the traps is moot, wizards are shit at perception. He'd fall in before even noticing.

>>55380515
>In the real world, casters only have some many spells known and prepped, and use slots on spells that have general purpose.
In the real world, a mage can generally get through most dungeons with only a handful of spells prepped anyways.
>Called it.
Called what? If the players don't have access to a thing that they normally should have access to, the least you can do is keep things consistent to account for the scenario you're forcing the players through.

>>55380568
Or the fighter can just drink a potion, or even be healed by the cleric, while no heal will ever give the wizard spells back.

>>55380616
>a mage can generally get through most dungeons with only a handful of spells prepped anyways
Yes, because they have an entire party there that can do things, too. Further, I've rarely seen that in games that weren't shit.
> If the players don't have access to a thing that they normally should have access to, the least you can do is keep things consistent to account for the scenario you're forcing the players through
Why do you expect everything to revolve around what the players can do? You are the type to bitch when the GM introduces homebrew on his part for npcs because you don't have access to it. Shit players like you are the bane of any GM that doesn't use the book as a bible.

>>55380572
>1
You're still only getting access to one level 9 spell per day, which you should have access to if you managed to get through the grind long enough to reach level 17. Why stack extra limitations on top of that when the game already accounts for it?
>2
If I know that I can't afford to grant everyone else flight to safely scale the cliff side, I'm just going to keep the spell in my back pocket so that if I end up failing a roll by too much, I'll at least be safe.

Meanwhile, the martials are going to have to pray to RNGesus that they don't roll too low too many times, lest they fall to their dooms and we're forced to call it early because more than half of the party is dead from fall damage.

That's the thing you need to understand, the mages still have options, it's just that now they'll be less interested in being team players when it comes down to their safety vs. the rest of the party and the martials will end up suffering the most because of it in the long run.

>>55367258
The new thing is even worse. Actually it had stop gaps without solving the problem. That's why in convention play they have to literally ban some spells from play.

Their other stop gap solution is to just publish less content.

It's hilariously poor design really.

>>55380611
>The point about the traps is moot
They why did you bring it up at all faggot?

>>55380708
It's your own previous point you retard.

>>55380629
>Or the fighter can just drink a potion
Oh I get it, mages can't have unlimited spells but martials can always have enough potions to get them through the dungeon when most of their costs is going to be eaten up by their weapons and armor. I gotcha senpai.
>or even be healed by the cleric
Why in the world would the Cleric waste their spell slots on healing the martial when their spells would be better served towards (de)buff? Making the actually fight easier to complete is much more valuable in the long run than healing HP that's going to be pissed away after a round of combat anyways.

>>55380690
>You're still only getting access to one level 9 spell per day, which you should have access to if you managed to get through the grind long enough to reach level 17. Why stack extra limitations on top of that when the game already accounts for it?
Because a level 9 spell once a day is still a level 9 spell (Say, oh, True Polymorph) once a day.
>>55380690
>If I know that I can't afford to grant everyone else flight to safely scale the cliff side, I'm just going to keep the spell in my back pocket so that if I end up failing a roll by too much, I'll at least be safe.
Yes, and? If you want to be selfish, be selfish. The party will treat you accordingly (Sure, it makes sense that the one caster not want to break his neck).
>Meanwhile, the martials are going to have to pray to RNGesus that they don't roll too low too many times, lest they fall to their dooms and we're forced to call it early because more than half of the party is dead from fall damage.
Are you implying that this wasn't part of the risks they signed up for?
If you sign up to fight the Emperor of Doom in the Castle of the Volcano, the smart money says someone is taking a permanent dip in lava (hopefully the Emperor, but you never know).

>>55380730
Magefags always assume they have all their spells ready and all their slots available, why not assume a fighter packed 4 potions before delving in a dungeon ?

>>55380666
Nice try Satan.
>Yes, because they have an entire party there that can do things, too.
And y'know what, a party of mages is still much more effective than a party of martials.
>Why do you expect everything to revolve around what the players can do?
Because usually if you're going to restrict what the players can and cannot do, there should be a reason for it within the setting that reflects how such a thing is now suddenly rare and mysterious.
>You are the type to bitch when the GM introduces homebrew on his part for npcs because you don't have access to it.
And if this homebrew makes his GMPC vastly more powerful than the party and we're warps the campaign around his narrative, I feel as though I, and the rest of the party, has a right to bitch about it.

You sound like the type of GM who makes people go through a door because, goddamnit, you spent an afternoon designing that trap and you're going to kill somebody with it.

>>55380758
>Because a level 9 spell once a day is still a level 9 spell (Say, oh, True Polymorph) once a day.
At the level you get Level 9 spells, you shouldn't be fighting anything less than deity level threats in the first goddamn place. You don't run a game of exalted and have the PC's getting their asses kicked by humans just because.
>The party will treat you accordingly
If I've never used a single spell, why would they treat me any different for looking out for my self-interests? Don't tell me you condone meta-gaming, right?
>Are you implying that this wasn't part of the risks they signed up for?
Are you saying that you'd risk a near TPK just because you feel as though the mages shouldn't be allowed to use their abilities freely? Because like I said, I know I'm safe, the martials...better start praying for good rolls fuckboys!

>>55380781
>And y'know what, a party of mages is still much more effective than a party of martials
In a white room without enemies nor traps maybe. In any other cases, no.

>>55380781
>Because usually if you're going to restrict what the players can and cannot do, there should be a reason for it within the setting that reflects how such a thing is now suddenly rare and mysterious.
Why?
The pcs are not the measuring stick of the setting, and the GM has full license to restrict content by virtue of being GM.
Hell, it's a fantasy staple, "warriors fighting the evil and corrupt wizard that traffics with dark powers", all the way back to fucking Conan.

>>55380766
Because spell slots are an assumption that's built into the class while potions generally require money to procure in large quantities.

It's the difference between a monk being able to beat people to death with their bare hands while a Fighter who does so without a feat ends up eating shit for it.

>>55380826
>In a white room without enemies nor traps maybe.
Nigga please, we recently had a Curse of Strahd campaign in which the bulk of the party were mages and let me tell you, we ended up pulling the most weight out of everyone else in the party simply because from level 6 on, we had more than enough spells between us to deal with most encounters that particular day.

>>55380828
>The pcs are not the measuring stick of the setting
Uh...yes they are. If they weren't meant to be the best, they'd be peasants, not PC's.
>the GM has full license to restrict content by virtue of being GM.
And that's fine, but don't say that we can't be mages and then have us fighting nothing but fucking mages. Either be consistent in your rulings or don't bother making them in the first place.
>Hell, it's a fantasy staple, "warriors fighting the evil and corrupt wizard that traffics with dark powers", all the way back to fucking Conan.
This isn't fucking Conan though, if it was then we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.

PC's in D&D are assumed to be anything from Fighters to Wizards to Rogues to Clerics. Hell, every class in the book has a mage variant of some flavor or another and most of the book is dedicated towards spells. If magic wasn't meant to be the solution to most problems, it wouldn't be the solution to most problems.

>>55380823
>At the level you get Level 9 spells, you shouldn't be fighting anything less than deity level threats in the first goddamn place.
But that's literally not true. Just because you have access to wicked powerful magic doesn't make you a demigod.
>You don't run a game of exalted and have the PC's getting their asses kicked by humans just because.
Except like I've been saying this entire fucking time, the assumption is that YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERMAN WITH YOUR MAGIC SPELLS. You are a person that has excellent knowledge of how to use a limited resource to meet your ends.
>If I've never used a single spell, why would they treat me any different for looking out for my self-interests? Don't tell me you condone meta-gaming, right?
NO, you clod. If they think you're saving your (limited) spells, it's up to them to decide how to treat you. A non-retarded party will realize that hey, maybe we don't want to harass the guy who casts Finger of Death to spend his precious resource making food for us when we could have fucking packed some.
>Are you saying that you'd risk a near TPK just because you feel as though the mages shouldn't be allowed to use their abilities freely? Because like I said, I know I'm safe, the martials...better start praying for good rolls fuckboys!
The game plays differently with different fucking rules. And you're praying for good rolls anyways (see saving throws). In fact, putting a limit on how much the enemy can use magic makes the idea that the villain doesn't immediately quash you before heading home for a spot of tea more realistic- he has to keep an eye out for the next crew that wants to paint the walls with his entrails.
Besides, you're assuming this cliff face is like death incarnate. Could the group have scouted the area for a faster way up or used subterfuge to enter through the gate? Or used equipment specifically designed for climbing?
You act like it's the end of the world you can't solve your problems with a snap of your fingers.

>>55380823
>You don't run a game of exalted and have the PC's getting their asses kicked by humans just because.
Uh, yes you do. How did you miss the Wyld Hunt? Massed mortals with bows are a very real threat to Exalted, and one of the ways the GM can convince them that even though they're capable of tackling lesser gods, they're nowhere near invincible.

>>55380857
>Nigga please, we recently had a Curse of Strahd campaign in which the bulk of the party were mages
Module fag. Figures.

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>>55380914
>But that's literally not true. Just because you have access to wicked powerful magic doesn't make you a demigod.
Try again sweetie, pic related.
>Except like I've been saying this entire fucking time, the assumption is that YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERMAN WITH YOUR MAGIC SPELLS.
Wrong.
>If they think you're saving your (limited) spells, it's up to them to decide how to treat you.
If I've never casted spells during the entirety of the campaign, how would they even know I'm a spellcaster?
>The game plays differently with different fucking rules.
No fooling?
>And you're praying for good rolls anyways (see saving throws).
Why would I roll a saving throw for my own spell?
>Ihe has to keep an eye out for the next crew that wants to paint the walls with his entrails.
The BBEG has the benefits of a fortress between him and any random schmuck who tries to gank him though.
>7
There's technically a safe passage to the top of Mt. Everest, doesn't mean people don't die every year.

>>55380954
The Wyld Hunt is are not vanilla humans though, they're basically given perks from working with other flavors of exalted to hunt down Solars.

Try again.

>>55380955
Oh what, you got told so now you're going to sulk and cry about it?

>>55380995
Your statement was that when you have level 9 spells that you shouldn't be fighting anything less than deity-level threats. The excerpt you just cited indicates that the possible scale of campaign stakes is indeed multiversal, but that doesn't mean that every encounter you have is against deities or something that can fight deities. Level 20 characters are extremely powerful, but they're nowhere near actual gods, which when statted in earlier editions, tended to be between level 40 and 50, along with Salient Divine Abilities which granted such abilities as being able to kill or raise as many mortals as you want, at will, at any range, an unlimited number of times per day.

Thwarting a god might be the final fight for a fourth-tier campaign, you're not fighting gods every day.

>>55380995
Oh, hey, I noticed that you ignored the entirety of my whole 'Hey, I figured out a way to make the game more balanced, but it's also harder now BECAUSE THAT'S THE FUCKING INTENTION YOU DUMBASS' points I've been making for five fucking posts.
>If I've never casted spells during the entirety of the campaign, how would they even know I'm a spellcaster?
Wow, huh, I was under the intention YOU WOULD HAVE FUCKING TOLD THEM THIS AT SOME POINT, BUT IT GUESS THAT'S TOO HARD SINCE YOU DON'T HAVE MAJOR IMAGE TO WRITE IT IN THE SKY BECAUSE WIZARDS HAVE TO DO THAT APPARENTLY.
>No fooling?
You're slow enough that I have to point it out, so yes.
>Why would I roll a saving throw for my own spell?
Saving throws caused by enemy spells, Mister Pointy Hat On Too Tight
>The BBEG has the benefits of a fortress between him and any random schmuck who tries to gank him though.
No shit, and he uses it and the guards he pays to not have to spend his spells on random dumbasses like you trying to kill him.
>There's technically a safe passage to the top of Mt. Everest, doesn't mean people don't die every year.
Give the boy a prize. ENTERING THE FORTRESS IS DANGEROUS. SCALING THE WALLS IS DANGEROUS. FIGHTING IS DANGEROUS. DON'T ADVENTURE IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO FACE DANGER.

You're obviously too caught up in protesting that the changes I'm presenting get in the way of your caster-fueled cakewalk. I'm done wasting words on you, you obviously aren't reading.

>>55381046
>Your statement was that when you have level 9 spells that you shouldn't be fighting anything less than deity-level threats. The excerpt you just cited indicates that the possible scale of campaign stakes is indeed multiversal, but that doesn't mean that every encounter you have is against deities or something that can fight deities.
Nigga, have you SEEN most CR 16-20 creatures in the MM? At the very least, you shouldn't even be limited to the material plane anymore since you're pretty much stronger than a sizeable chunk of the known world.
>Thwarting a god might be the final fight for a fourth-tier campaign, you're not fighting gods every day.
Why not? We're level 17 characters, we should be able to start taking on shit that would make our last few encounters seem like kiddy island sunshine adventures.

>>55381022
The Wyld Hunt tends to be Dragon Bloods leading vanilla humans. I can't find any reference in the 3e book of them being augmented. In 2e especially, it was quite clear these were entirely mundane soldiers, handed bows.

Because of how Onslaught rules work, you don't need special abilities to damage exalts, at least not low to mid-tier ones. Just shoot enough arrows at them and they'll die. Even if there are Dragon Blooded who buff their retinue, that doesn't change the fact that a mortal mob will indeed fuck up a party of exalts who get too rowdy.

>>55381072
>I was under the intention YOU WOULD HAVE FUCKING TOLD THEM THIS AT SOME POINT
Why would I? I'm not casting spells and I have no reason to mention it. Y'know what they say about assumptions.
>You're slow enough that I have to point it out, so yes.
Wow, Stephan Hawking over hear can't detect sarcasm and has the nerve to accuse other people of being slow. Oh the irony, I'll be sure to sign "/s" so you know when I'm being sarcastic, okay sweetie?
>Saving throws caused by enemy spells
Y'mean the ones that are supposed to be under the same restrictions as we are, oh clearly I should've known /s
>No shit, and he uses it and the guards he pays to not have to spend his spells on random dumbasses like you trying to kill him.
Why does he care? He could wipe us out and then sleep to regain his spells anyways.
>SCALING THE WALLS IS DANGEROUS.
Then there isn't really a safe passage now is there?
>I'm done wasting words on you.
Don't forget your bib and rattler you fucking baby!

>>55381080
>shouldn't be limited to the material plane
I agree with this. You get access to Plane Shift way earlier and by that point are easily powerful enough to affect multiversal politics.
>Why not?
As you referenced in your previous point, there's a lot of big stuff in the MM intended for high-level characters, many of which are the direct pawns of gods. They are not gods themselves, however. Even top-level characters aren't god-tier.

>>55381107
There's a difference between a pack of vanilla humans and vanilla humans being backed by other Exalted chief.

I could walk into a random village and decimate every man, woman, and child inside with no problems, simply because I'm a demigod who cannot be opposed by most vanilla humans. Hell, the fact that humans need the help of other exalted to take me out is just a different flavor of the martial vs. mage debate where martials are great, so long as they have a mage who is willing to buff them.

>>55381137
>Even top-level characters aren't god-tier.
Try again sweetie, I know you'll get it eventually.

>>55381152
Gods can kill mortals at-will, at any range. Level 20 characters cannot. Level 20 characters are weaker than gods. They may be at a scale that they are interacting with gods due to the influence that they exert on the multiverse, and might have leverage to negotiate with them, or be part of a storyline that involves deity-affecting macguffins, but they by themselves are not gods. Do you have an actual counter-argument?

>>55381152
There is a scale of magnitude between "match for the gods" and "mighty among mortals", anon.
In all editions of D&D, level 20 pcs were not a match even for demigods, period.

>>55381168
>>55381170
There isn't really a hard cap to how high a PC's level can be, especially when you account for multi-classing and magic items as well.

>>55374890
>anything a fighter can do
>even approaching as interesting as all the options a level 11 wizard has
>level 11 fighter single target damage worth more than shit like Contingency

Have fun when the wizard levels up another two times and has simulacrum by the way.

>>55381206
>There isn't really a hard cap to how high a PC's level can be
Basic had only supplemental rules for pcs past 10th level, 2e had barebones rules for 11+.

>>55381142
Single Solar Exalt, versus, say, fifty basic mortal archers. If those archers get a turn to fire, they will kill the solar, unless the solar is very heavily spec'd into defending against mobs (as with certain Block and Dodge charms) which most are not, especially low to mid-tier ones. Because of the onslaught penalty, your Defense against the 40th attack will be 40 lower than it otherwise would be. The first dozen will likely force you into Initiative Crash with Withering Attacks, the rest will use Decisive Attacks at their starting Initiative, the vast majority of which will hit because you're in the negative double-digits for defense, and you will die. If you see a battlegroup of archers show up over the hill and start loosing volleys at you, you run.

Yes, you can individually kill each of those men, maybe even multiple a turn, and definitely if you can kill them one at a time. That doesn't change the fact that a sufficient number of mortals are a potentially lethal threat to even mid-tier Exalted. And that's before any buffs or supernatural mumbo-jumbo.

>Martial vs Mage
I find it funny you bring this up, since Exalted is a great example of a game that reverses this, where Martial Arts tends to be amazingly powerful and versatile while Sorcery is slow, clumsy, not great in combat, and often useful only for a few particular tasks (transportation, communication, supplying food and binding demons, mostly).

>>55368761
Wrong. The wizzard has a stealth of 47. Cuz he can turn invisible.

A wizzard probably won't use all his spells in a day even if he is poping them like pain pills.

>>55381206
5e clearly intends 20th to be maxed level. The cited section clearly lays it out as the highest tier of play.

Even if you were to extrapolate the rules by becoming level 20 in every class, even if you use 3e Epic Level rules for epic level spells (which are insanely broken) or similar feats, you'll only ever get to demigod-tier. Literal gods can kill you without a save. They are gods, you are not. You may grow to be able to replicate some of their powers, but you will not be able to directly threaten them without some sort of plot armor/macguffin/GM fiat.

>>55381298
At the same time, what fucking exalt is just going to let 50 odd men set up an onslaught against them when they have access to a plethora of abilities that would allow them to get in close, avoid the attacks, send the attacks back at them, or more?

I could theoretically kill an elder dragon at level 1 if I roll nothing but crits while it rolls nothing but fumbles. It doesn't mean that I'm going to succeed.

>>55381298
This is similar to how Scion and RoS/SoS deals with magic v martials.
Magic IS powerful, but has few direct combative uses outside a handful of methods, and few of them are as good as just being good at slapping someone's shit.
Hell, in Scion, Levin Fury, one of the most powerful direct damage spells in the game, can be easily tanked by an equivalent level foe that put some xp to being able to take a hit. Most spells are buffs or some manner of indirect use.

>>55381344
This is one round of combat. If they win initiative or get a surprise attack, you do not get a chance to act with anything except reflexive charms, which for most exalts will not be enough to save them. They will die. Even if they do not die immediately, be aware that being shot at by even a couple dozen mortals will just straight-up kill you. If you start by fighting 40, you need to be confident you can kill the vast majority in one turn, or you will be dead. In most cases, your best bet will be to run, hide, try guerrilla-tactics. You must hide, because these are a potentially lethal threat to you.

>level 1
What levels?
>crits and fumbles
What are you talking about? There are not "crits or fumbles" in Exalted. There are Exploding 10s, which I suppose could pass for crits, but don't apply to Decisive damage rolls, specifically to avoid critting to win combats.

Have you actually played this game? Even read the book?

>>55381364
>similar to Scion
I'm not surprised, given they're produced by the same company, using the same base d10 system, with a bunch of similar design principles

>>55381344
>>55381399
>no fumbles
I suppose you could have meant Botches? Those don't really apply to combat either, though.

>>55381399
>This is one round of combat. If they win initiative or get a surprise attack, you do not get a chance to act with anything except reflexive charms, which for most exalts will not be enough to save them.
Again, you're still ignoring the logistics of setting up a 50 man firing squad without the resident Exalt noticing anything before it's too late. If I'm strong enough to, I could rip a tree out of the ground and use it as cover as I'm running towards the firing squad and as normal humans, they'd end up eating dirt because nothing they have can pierce through a fucking tree.
>What levels?
>What are you talking about?
Clearly I'm talking about D&D you spastic, keep up please.

>>55381422
see >>55381428

This shit is why I play generic systems, as well as the odd sword and sorcery system for fantasy.

D&D spellcasters are a truly bizarre, frankly goofy thing, and I can't really think of any piece of fantasy fiction where they're like this.

>>55381428
Surprise is a thing, anon. It is something that more experienced Exalts will likely have ways around, but is still something that must be encountered. And often, the Wyld Hunt is literally hunting the players, including full firing squads marching through cities (likely fronted by their Dragonblood Commander). An example situation would be players staying the night in a barn, but unbeknownst to them, the farmer's wife blabbed to the guard, and the Hunt showed up in the middle of the night. The players can of course flee, or try to get a drop on them somehow, but outright fighting the group of mortal archers will get them killed. A single round of fire from that number will kill an exalt. That's really the only point that I'm trying to make, that massed mortals are indeed a significant threat to exalts. Exalts have ways around, to hide, evade or mislead, and exalts with certain specialties can indeed tackle them head-on, but your average exalt will view them as a legitimate threat. Exalts are not immortal, they are not deific. They are extremely powerful individuals gifted a tiny piece of deific essence.

Also:
>rip a tree out of the ground and use it as cover
Even IF the GM allowed that to work, the absolute best you'll get is "Heavy Cover" which is a +2 to defense. You're now at only 38 less than what your default Defense is. You die.

>>55381417
Spellbooks are an inherent classfeature for the wizard, potions aren't for the fighter.

Plus, a wizard doesn't even need a spellbook in 5e to regain spell slots, only to change the prepared ones.

>>55381504
>I can't really think of any piece of fantasy fiction where they're like this.
That's because there are none, not even in the Vancian setting they are based on.

>>55381510
>Even IF the GM allowed that to work, the absolute best you'll get is "Heavy Cover" which is a +2 to defense.
Wow, that's fucking stupid. We use hay bails at my college's archery range to stop dozens of shots a week and yet a bigass tree trunk can't stop a volley of non-magical arrows?

Am I missing something here?

>>55381534
>>55381504
Riftwar Saga, Shattered World series, The Luck of Relian Kru, The Misenchanted Sword, Journeys of the Catechist series, etc etc etc.

Just because you don't read doesn't mean the examples don't exist.

>>55381542
That those arrows are all coming at once, at you, like the ending of Hero, and you can only move the tree so much.
Where I running it, I'd allow you to use it to block los for full cover, but eventually the tree would be wrecked.
It's one of those things not expressly covered in the rules, and requires the GM to resolve sensibly.

>>55381534
I've heard some superhero comic wizards come close. I can't say because I almost never read comics.

>>55381575
>Just because you don't read doesn't mean the examples don't exist.
>Hurr, just because you don't read every dimestore fantasy novel doesn't mean you don't read.

You're an example of why /tg/ is turning into a worse version of /v/.

>>55381575
None of those have the same length and breadth of abilities D&D casters do, especially not when D&D casters are expressly based on an existing framework.
Those series have mages who are similar in theory, but not in practice or use.

>>55381542
Nope, it's just how Exalted functions. It doesn't use a grid, it just generalizes everyone's locations into one of a handful of range-brackets. You're never drawing exact line-of-sight, so it's just assumed that the cover is useful but not foolproof, unless you manage to get Full Cover, which requires a completely solid object capable of dividing the field between you and your opponent, or to be completely enclosed by a protective structure (the example given is "standing behind a six-foot-high wall or retreating inside of a building").

Even if the given example of tossing up cover and rushing them were to be successful (you survived long enough to enter melee with group of archers), you likely still lose. There's no penalty or repercussion for firing Archery weapons at Short Range, they just pincushion you point-blank. Even using flurries, you won't be able to kill more than a few of them a turn. Most exalts will lose this fight, unless you specifically have charms which do things like allow you reset your DV, which most exalts don't pick up until later on and which still fails against sufficiently massed mortals. The real stuff that lets you ignore this sort of tactic isn't till near the end of the respective trees.

>>55381590
A handful of the ones that are basically the best of their kind, yeah.

>>55381583
>That those arrows are all coming at once, at you, like the ending of Hero, and you can only move the tree so much.
Have you seen the size of most trees anon? I'm not a small dude but I could still easily hide behind most trees growing around my area.
>Where I running it, I'd allow you to use it to block los for full cover, but eventually the tree would be wrecked.
Again, even if we assume that 40 arrows hit it, it's not going to have enough punch through to actually destroy the stability of the tree trunk. Maybe if we were talking about other Exalted but not ordinary humans who are still limited by their mundane physiology.

>>55381619
>Even using flurries, you won't be able to kill more than a few of them a turn.
Even if I use the tree as a bigass baseball bat?

>>55381630
>Have you seen the size of most trees
I suppose this somewhat depends on what sort of tree we're talking about. Is this a tiny japanese maple, your average oak, or something like a full-grown redwood?

If you're playing an exalt strong enough to toss a full redwood at the archers, then yeah, you probably win that fight.

Even then, you're acknowledging that they're enough of a threat that you need to spend a turn to deal with them

>>55381619
Not him, but wouldn't getting 50 archers in a position where they could all shoot at the Exalt be kinda difficult?

>>55381650
If I spend the time boiling a kettle of water just so I could boil an ant hill, it doesn't mean that I'm acknowledging their existence, it just means that I'm a sociopath who enjoys seeing creatures die by my hand.

Or at least, that's how I'd see it if I were a being who commands enough strength to toss a redwood at a militia.

>>55381640
>tree as a bigass baseball bat
The rules don't really support that sort of thing, at least not that I can think of. There's nothing in the description for Feats of Strength for using huge objects like that, the improvised weapon rules only cover things up to chair-size, and the largest actual weapons are Grand Daiklaves, which are only a bit larger than a man.

>>55381651
>difficult positioning
Due to how positions are handled, you aren't drawing line-of-sight. You just need them in a range bracket and you're allowed to make the attack roll. I suppose you do need to be in an environment which accommodates that number of individuals, but simply being outside is probably sufficient. Indeed, if I were playing an Exalt being ambushed by such a group, I would aim to find a chokepoint to funnel them through, to attempt to fight them a couple at a time, which is far more feasible.

>>55381677
>ants
Except in this case, the ants can kill you in seconds. Due to the aforementioned rules, unless you have some seriously powerful DV-resetting mojo, that group of ants will just drown you in tiny bites until you go down.

>>55381705
>The rules don't really support that sort of thing, at least not that I can think of.
Seriously? You'd think that a game that talks about demi-gods would have something as basic using large ass pieces of the environment as weapons.
>Except in this case, the ants can kill you in seconds.
Many ants can strip the flesh from a cow in a few minutes as well, it doesn't make them any more durable if you step on them or any more effective against people who aren't just going to stand around as they swarm them.

>>55381705
>Due to how positions are handled, you aren't drawing line-of-sight. You just need them in a range bracket and you're allowed to make the attack roll. I suppose you do need to be in an environment which accommodates that number of individuals, but simply being outside is probably sufficient. Indeed, if I were playing an Exalt being ambushed by such a group, I would aim to find a chokepoint to funnel them through, to attempt to fight them a couple at a time, which is far more feasible.

Well I don't mean in a strict game mechanical sense. Finding space for 50 people to do anything, let alone shoot at a guy can often be difficult.

That said, 50 people being a threat to an exalt is a good thing, and should be maintained. Even Achilles still died to a poison arrow.

>>55381599
The inability of people to bother reading the genres they're playing is why there is an overwhelming amouint of mechanical discussion and no actual game discussion on /tg/. I would say it's very much the opposite problem than the one you are claiming, which is "mechanics>>>>>>>>>>>>>>setting, fluff, creativity, play". The lack of people who once believed that "mechanics~play with modification" is contributing to the dearth of good posting in this board.

>>55381733
>Seriously? You'd think that a game that talks about demi-gods would have something as basic using large ass pieces of the environment as weapons.

Demigods can mean a lot of things. Many of the figures in the Iliad were demigods, and the only time a big hunk of scenery is used as a weapon, is a bigass rock gets used to break in a gate.

It's like looking at the entirety of superhero comics and calibrating your expectations on Superman alone, ignoring the fact that all the C and D listers are still superheroes too.

>>55381611
Have you not read any of those books? Seriously? The Black Robe sorcerers are literally the gods of the planet they live on, the Wizards of the Shattered Worlds literally use ass-pull magic, and the last three are literal D&D clones. Jesus.

>>55381746
There's nothing wrong with mechanical discussion though, it's just that most people on /tg/ don't actually play most of the games they shit on, much less understand the rules that they claim are, like, the worst.

>>55381760
Fucking Hercules rerouted a major river to clean a few stables anon, that's more than enough strength to turn a redwood into a bigass club.

>>55381761
Not him but are those good books?

>>55381746
Please, not a single author of those books appears in the AD&D Appendix N. This means, since fantasy gaming has been most strongly influenced by D&D, that if they are an influence on fantasy gaming at all, that they're a very minor influence.

They're not influential as literature, nor on gaming. Get off your horse.

Also, this guy disagrees with your assessment of them. >>55381611

>>55381776
>What do you mean all I get is the power of echolocation as a blind man? I mean I am a superhero, shouldn't I be able to fly and shoot lasers from my eyes by default?

This is you, right now.

>>55381733
>Really?
Yeah, honestly I'm kinda surprised as well. I think some amount of that comes from the popular image of Exalted as a ludicrously high-powered game. While that's definitely an accurate description, you aren't actually chopping mountains in half. "Gods" are also toned down to the point of local spirits (excluding the Incarnae, which you actually get your power from) so the whole "fight gods straight out of chargen!" isn't actually as impressive as it might sound at first. All that said, crazy strong characters can still lift inhuman amounts, there just aren't rules for throwing or wielding them.

>>55381742
I see what you mean; I suppose I was envisioning either wide city streets or open countryside. Most of Exalted doesn't take place in D&D-style dungeons and forts, though those do definitely come up occasionally. Those would also be awful places for a group of mortal archers to ambush some exalts, as they can't use their full force.

>Achilles
Definitely agreed. Making exalts super powerful but still fundamentally vulnerable is essential for dramatic stakes, making sure there are actually repercussions for actions. The existence of the Hunt and how it illustrates the power of massed mortals is important so players don't just power trip and just murderhobo their way across the countryside. They are immensely powerful, but are not themselves armies and thus must employ discretion to keep under the radar when in hostile territory.

>>55381811
>Implying Daredevil's powers aren't bullshit in their own right.
Motherfucker can hear you driving away from over a block away and react to an explosion moments before the bomb goes off.

The fuck are you on about?

>>55381816
Wow, that's a massive disappointment anon. I was looking forward to using trees as great clubs because I heard that the game was all about demigods fucking around across the bulk of creation.

Man, what can you do then?

>>55381839
My point is that "demigod" doesn't mean "can do all kinds of crazy bullshit" by default. Refer to the Iliad. One time, a mortal guy throws a rock at a wooden gate, another mortal guy fights the god of War possessing a dude (in the fashion of a very skilled mortal), and another guy goes on a killing spree that may have just been a PTSD induced rampage and fights a river god along the way (this same guy dies to a poisoned arrow to the heel). Dial down your expectations. You start out more capable than a low level D&D character, but you're not invincible, and you're not just able to do anything ever.

>>55381855
Well, you start out as a highly capable individual who can potentially have access to some very considerable resources, and you can eventually go on to do some fairly crazy shit. But it's still somewhat grounded (it would have to be to maintain drama without always requiring a new villain of the week or turning into DBZ).

>>55381861
Uh dude, you realize that you just told me about a demigod who killed a river god while also telling me to dial down my expectations, right?

I mean, can I at least rip a large monster's arm off and then beat them to death with it like that Beowulf?

>>55381855
What follows is the very first listed "Larceny" charm. This is a bottom-level ability in Exalted.

Seasoned Criminal Method:
The Exalt adapts the nature of the iconic criminal, who must one day become a master of her craft. She is a creature of the criminal element; duplicity is in her every word and step. This Charm allows the Solar to invoke and discard a number of special distinctions at her leisure, which allow her to gather information, infiltrate criminal society, and protect her position there.
The distinctions are as follows:

Familiarity: To a member of a criminal organization, she seems familiar—that is, she can play on a Minor Intimacy to make her target believe she is a criminal with whom to be treated: a member of the organization, a prospect for initiation, etc.
Dissonance: Magistrates or other officials seeking to establish her identity suffer a -2 penalty to their Bureaucracy and Investigation actions. Persons who do not know her personally but may have spotted her or seen her hanging around the scene of a crime find her unrecognizable and cannot remember doing so.

Vulnerability: The Exalt makes herself seem the best possible target for a type of crime dictated by the player. Confidence men will see her as an easy mark, gamblers will seek to engage her with betting gossip or games of chance, thugs will try to mug her, and so forth. This effect has a visual component: thieves are less likely to steal from an Exalt wearing armor and a battle axe, while a serial killer might find a person who wears her hair a certain way irresistible.

Receptivity: Similar to vulnerability, interested parties perceive the Exalt as a local player. Rather than prey on her directly, she may be identified as a drug buyer or seller, or a person looking to make a bet, hire a prostitute, or take part in other illicit or seedy activities. Such parties will be interested in providing her with information about where to go and who to talk to.

>>55367258
......

I know it's completely off topic but I could really care less. Yer image put into my head the idea of a variably retarded dragon flying around screaming "I'M A WIZURD" and casting semi detrimental magic on the populous.

>sire, the dragon has struck again
>what did it do this time?
>it..... made all of our corn exports look like corny shit sire
>gods damn it not again

>>55381776
Didn't he just do that through normal digging though?

>>55381855
>>55381927
Note that that charm is Permanent, by the way. Once you have it, you can use it at will, zero cost.

An example of a late-game Brawl Charm:

Apocalypse Flair Attack:
The Lawgiver reaches deep into her Essence, drawing forth a mountain-crushing surge of spirit pressure that burns like a small sun between her hands. The Solar then hurls this flare of burning Essence like a comet to strike a foe she can perceive at any range. The base damage for this attack is any damage the Solar has gathered with Fire-Eating Fist. In addition, the Exalt may choose to pour three levels of anima banner into the attack, shedding them to give the attack three automatic successes and (Essence) additional damage. This attack does not include the Exalt’s Initiative and does not return her to base value.

Basically, Exalted is all about taking every possible skill to mythical levels. There's 25 skills ("abilities") and each has its own complete tree of these charms, usually around a dozen per. These abilities include, among other things, Bureaucracy and Sail. There are then extra charms for different martial arts styles, and then sorceries that can be learned but tend to be expensive, slow and clumsy compared to charms.

>>55381902
>Uh dude, you realize that you just told me about a demigod who killed a river god while also telling me to dial down my expectations, right?

Fights a river god. Doesn't kill. The gods in Greek myth, even the least of them, are immortal. Also god is another term with some fucking diverse meanings as well.

>>55379842
A warrior smells of fresh soap and the oil used on his armor and weapons. Perhaps a bit of grungy stank if he's been out and about for a few days.

Wizards, on the other hand, always smell of bat shit and garlic.

>>55382065
Prestidigitation.

>>55382065
>Implying batshit and garlic aren't what the ladies love
What if spellcasters were viewed like corporate execs, as far as being able to bring in a large and stable income, and as such women tended to very attracted to them. Over time, maybe batshit and garlic would be considered a high-class cologne.

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>want to play dual wielder fighter commie with hammer and sickle
>1d4 damage

>>55375865
You're going to get a few different games, but mechanically they tend not to differ that much.

I personally like Swords and Wizardry because it has a more familiar AD&D (race & class) feel with options. Want to use ascending AC? It's got a table for it. Want classic saving throws? Knock yourself out. Initiative and combat? You've got a few options.

It's like the Rosetta stone of OSR. You can run pretty much any TSR or OSR module without having to add houserules beyond the options presented in the book. And it has an SRD if you just want to take a look.

>>55382091
You're joking right? Wizards are autistic obsessive compulsive who can't do anythign but think of magic and cast spells constantly because they have to keep everything under control. Money? What a joke, they spen d it all on obscure times and research and expensive spell compoennts. Prestige? Hell no, everyone who is sane is scared to death of the batshit crazy bastard who can turn you into a turnip if you look at them wring.

Wizards have no redeeming qualities except power, but no one sane can dare hang around them because of what they do to get all that power.

>>55367584
Or anyone with a magic item to dispel it

>>55367509
>Personality
Is that what you call 14 years of bloat and shitty third party cheese? And Paizo...eeeesh

>>55380499
Such as using knock instead of picking a lock. Such as using enchantment spells instead of diplomacy. Such as using clairvoyance instead of scouting.

>>55381312
A proper wizzard never casts any spells at all. He just runs from danger. Still hasn't got shit for stealth though, since danger seems to always find him.

>>55385528
And yet when magic's involved, who's the first motherfucker you plebians call upon for assistance?

You martialfags are like Europe, always talking shit until you realize that you NEED superpower like me to actually win wars.

>>55385706
>Such as using knock instead of picking a lock.
Y'mean the one use spell that automatically unlocks any non-magical door in a fraction of the time?
>Such as using enchantment spells instead of diplomacy.
Y'mean the spell that allows me to automatically make my target friendly towards me without having to waste time on CHA checks?
>Such as using clairvoyance instead of scouting.
Y'mean the spell that allows me to detect danger with pinpoint accuracy from the comfort of my tiny hut without putting "valuable" members of the party at risk?

Wow, so much less effective.

>>55386004
>Completely delusional: the post.
Knock sets off fucking alarm bells. Charm Person doesn't automatically do anything except make the person hate you. Clairvoyance only gives you the opportunity to use your perception to look for danger from one spot. Your wizard's shitty perception. In the dark.

>>55386202
>Knock sets off fucking alarm bells.
It makes a noise that's about as loud as the dumbfuck Barbarian deciding to kick the door down anyways.
>Charm Person doesn't automatically do anything except make the person hate you.
Actually, it makes the person become friendly towards me until the spell ends, at which point we've either gotten what we asked for or have already killed them.
>Clairvoyance only gives you the opportunity to use your perception to look for danger from one spot.
And I can choose a) an unfamiliar place that's within 1 mile of my location and b) choose to have the sensor grant me the ability to see or hear as if I was in that position. To say nothing on the fact that it's invisible and I can freely switch between hearing and seeing on the fly.

I mean, I don't understand what your end-game is in trying to make spells seem more detrimental than they actually are. Magic has been the accepted go-to option since 3.PF and it hasn't changed a bit in 5e.

Sorry.

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>the people who chose to practice a craft that literally bends reality to their will are more powerful and useful than an illiterate savage swinging around a stick with a pointy end on it

Wow how shocking but why am I not surprised

>>55386425
Even in WH40K magic is god-tier in the amount of options it grants you. It's just unfortunate that it carries a chance at killing you if you aren't on chaos' side.

>>55386425
That's not the issue so much as the game trying to paint the picture that non-caster classes are worth picking.

>>55386498
>barbar has a hilarious amount of health, then there's rage
>friend's rogue sneak attack has helped my dragonborn barbar literally two-shot gargoyles

Maybe everyone else in this thread just sucks. Sure the wizard has more utility but the warrior will outlast most enemies.

>>55386632
Outlasting enemies is a non-issue when the wizard casts one or two spells and ends combat immediately.

>>55386632
Sure, until your Barbar encounters something that he can't just resist damage on.

I know this, because we had a Barbarian in our party who would always go on about how he was invincible...until we encountered mind-flayers who basically nommed his mind until there was nothing left.

>>55386670
I've never played a game where a wizard automatically granted us immediate advantage over enemy NPCs. Perhaps on paper their abilities seem to be godlike but you forget that this isn't a video game. Dice rolls determine success rates and different creatures will react to magic in different ways.

>>55386739
>Wizard doesn't immediately grant advantage over enemy NPCs
What are you playing?

>>55386739
And y'know which class is able to pull their weight without touching a single die? Fucking Wizards!