>level 20 wizard hits for 20d6 across the battlefield >possibly

>>55345616
>Level 20 Barbarian hits for 2d6+25/2d6+25/2d6+25/2d6+25/1d8+18/1d8+18

>ftfy

>>55345616
Magic takes time to cast and can be interupted.

The barbarian isn't supposed to be a dps machine. They exist to absorb damage so that the other characters can deal enough. It's an underappreciated role.

>>55345616
Stop playing the one edition of D&D where this happens maybe?

>>55345719
>polymorphs into an dragon
>turns invisible
>conjures illusions of self

Why absorb damage?

>>55345616
Give them options that aren't just dealing damage and make these options comparable to the relative power level of the spells that a Wizard have access to.

If Wizards have access to Sleep spells, give the martial an ability that allows them to knock out opponents who are grappled if they fail an Endurance check.

If the Wizard has access to fireball, give the martials an ability that allows them to perform a spin attack and have it not only hit every enemy within range, but also make it so that it counts as a single attack.

If mages can warp to an area as a free/move action, give martials the ability to move before and after each attack, and don't make it so they can only perform a single attack if they moved more than 5 ft.

Also this >>55345716

>>55345616
Change the name of the Wizard class to Yahweh so people stop getting the wrong impression about class balance and power levels.

>>55345616
>Level 20 barbarian hits for 2d6+150 with his axe
ftfy

>>55345891
>>55345693
Unless your Barbarian can kill everything it comes across in one round, it's not dealing enough damage.

>>55345693
a barbarian with great axe at level 20 will have 24 STR and infinite rages

damage would be 1d12 + 11, two attacks
this is lower than 20d6, but it doesnt run out, and with a +13 to hit, an AC23 creature would be hit 50% of the time, unlike a DC19 DEX save, which can be passed by most monsters

the main value of a barbarian is that rage gives advantage to all strength checks, and at level 20 you can do so infinitely
and of course durability, 1d12 HD, unarmored defense, and rages granting resistance,can make him a tougher nut to crack, and works even if caught by surprise, since these are resources that are returned on a short rest, and do not have a time limit on use

>>55345616
>chooses to play a class that sucks
>complains about it
Just accept that you're playing a game about spellcasters.

>>55345616
Next time you feel the urge to make one of these threads, do 20 pushups instead.

>>55345941
>1d12+11, two attacks

....wut?

What the hell are you even playing? Barbarian is full BAB, at level 20 they damned well better have more than 2 attacks. And two handing a weapon adds 1.5x str modifier, which isn't counting power attack.

Roll your damage.

If you're fighting creatures with lower HD then your level, your damage is the number of foes you kill instead.

>he doesn't know blasting spells are weaker than just shooting something with a bow.
>he actually wastes his 9th levels on fucking blasting spells
>also implying that most things your fighting at 20d6 levels aren't fucking immune/heavily resistant to every damage type.

Also
>>55345693
>>55345891

Also 20d6 damage is only an average of 70, at those levels that's a fucking scratch even when you're talking about mook tier enemies.

>>55345966
You're talking 3.PF, he's talking 5e.

File: 1489727205055.jpg (22KB, 443x356px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 443x356px

>>55345941
>Barbarian
>Two attacks

5e was a mistake.

>>55346023
There's a subclass that gets three but is useless for the rest of the day.

>>55345963
No harm in doing both

Gods, OP is right.

How do we fix this?

>>55346050
Rename casters fot godlings (upgrade class title to god later) as other guy said so martials will understand their position better and be happier with newfound immersion

>>55346050
No he isn't. There's a lot if balance issues with Wizard, but if he's beating your barb in damage your barb is just shitty.

>>55346004
>only 9th level spells can achieve 20d6

I suggest you read the spellbook, pal.

File: 34137_1f0afcd25ff084592de1142a42da7495.jpg (65KB, 396x382px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 396x382px

>>55346049

>>55346038
How the fuck do we go from getting six attacks to two attacks?

For that matter, why even play a martial at all when Bards get access to double attacks, expertise, and a full spell list in 5e?

File: Unlessugotbunz.jpg (64KB, 312x445px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 312x445px

>>55346170
yes but its fun and I've learned something from them. Shut up.

Now I'm of to start an argument about whether batman could beat Goku.

He couldn't 'cause he's a weak nub

>>55345616
Either accept D&D has some serious golden calf baggage (such as a do-anything wizard archetype it basically self-enforced) or don't play it.

>>55346170
So? OP would be able to do 100 push-ups by now.

File: 1396366716723[1].jpg (76KB, 831x445px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 831x445px

>>55345616

>>55345616
Give them more to do in combat beyond move close and hit thing, or potentially even giving them more stuff to do in general.

Why does everyone suggest that the wizards should be nerfed? Martials should be raised to meet the rest of the classes. Higher damage output is not always the answer. The strength to leap huge distances or crack the earth to trip up enemies, the ability to catch most attacks that would kill a guy on the chest and brush it off, or no-selling spells by busting through their effects with your MANLY WILLPOWER.

>>55345747
>dispel magic
>see invisibility
>true seeing
You just got rekt, faggot.
But I agree, barbarians are shit for preventing damage against flying opponents.

>>55346556
>Why does everyone suggest that the wizards should be nerfed?
Because their spells ruin campaigns.
>The strength to leap huge distances or crack the earth to trip up enemies, the ability to catch most attacks that would kill a guy on the chest and brush it off, or no-selling spells by busting through their effects with your MANLY WILLPOWER.
No one likes your retarded weeb shit.

>>55345616
>>level 20 barbarian hits for 2d6 with his axe
Guys this is a bait thread, literally everything in that sentence is wrong, intentionally so.

File: 1388405242267.jpg (62KB, 618x619px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 618x619px

>>55346655

>>55346641
Most of that is retarded, true. But the going through spells with willppwer or sheer bloody-mindedness isn't a terrible idea. I mean heck, making spells like Wall of force moveable (5ft a round, like Immovable Rods) or fallible (Letting reactions to spells being cast happen during the casting instead of after) would be pretty cool.

>>55346625
>enemy has to waste their time casting their own magic to get past mine instead of skipping to the part where they fling actually dangerous spells

Meanwhile, a Barbarian is up shit creek against either of them.

>>55345757
This. Give fighters more options.
I was in a home brew where the Monks had access to fighting styles that mimicked weapons with added bonuses.
Not only that but Monks were good at grappling so I can make enemies easier targets (but my character mostly enjoyed throwing people). My favorite mid-late game fighting stance was Flying Foot, mimicked pole-arm but could destroy shields if it did Max damage.

Another thing the DM did was let rogues sneak around a battle and even kite enemies. Fighters can serve as support-dps or support-tank, just allow variety.

>>55346556
>Why does everyone suggest that the wizards should be nerfed?

Have you seen what a Wizard in 3.5 is capable of? Low-levels it's trivial to get a toolbox of solutions that render most skills and a wide variety of enemies completely irrelevant. Higher levels a Wizard is basically impossible to challenge or threaten in any meaningful way aside from a more powerful wizard.

Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a character, any character in fiction, capable of doing all the sorts of things a level 20 Wizard can have on his spell list?

Merlin? A D&D Wizard shits on him without even having a fancy bloodline. Circe? Only ever really did Polymorph and that's small potatoes. Zeus? Sure, he can shapeshift and throw lightning, but what caster can't do that by mid-levels? Capital G God? Sure, he made the earth and a bunch of plants and animals, but don't pretend for a minute that a Wizard couldn't put on a perfect re-enactment of the Bible inside of a demi-plane with the people born there being none the wiser.

The reason everyone suggests that Wizards be nerfed is because 'does literally everything ever' should not be a class.

>>55346365
5e has no full-round stuff any more. While you get less attacks every attack is as accurate, plus you can move and interact with things in other ways even between your first and second weapon attack with no compromise.

>>55346920
>Zeus? Sure, he can shapeshift and throw lightning
The funny thing is Zeus doen't use magic to throw lightning. Lightning bolts are magical weapons (as they are in Hinduism and Norse mythology and probably some other myths) forged by cyclops to fight titans. Zeus just casts them down. His spell repertoir boils down to shapeshifting, so Zeus is probably a poorly optimized druid with high CHA and CON.

>>55346641
>weeb shit.
>The strength to leap huge distances
>what is superman

>crack the earth to trip up enemies
>Breaking things is an asian only thing
>Only a weeb would think that making rough terrain would be a good idea

>catch most attacks that would kill a guy on the chest and brush it off, or no-selling spells by busting through their effects with your MANLY WILLPOWER.
>What is a monster heel in wrestling

I'll admit my ideas are retarded, but all of these ideas have a basis in western ideas.

Fuck me, anything that isn't hit thing with stick is fucking weebish these days. Spears are weeb, swords are weeb, sharp things are weeb, punching is weeb, armour is weeb, no armour is weeb, supernatural abilities are weeb, not supernatural abilities are weeb, everything is weeb. I'm pretty sure breathing is weeb somehow too.

>>55347036
The problem is that even though superhuman abilities have been a part of western mythology and folklore for thousands of years, anyone who shows these abilities now is for some reason weeb.

Nevermind the fact that Hercules could hold up the fucking sky or that King David and Beowulf used giant swords, or that Cuchulain used rune magic and King Arthur's brother Sir Kay could grow 20 feet tall and shoot fire from his hands, NO, no the fact that some spiky haired kid did it in japanese media means no one else can do it ever again without it being weeb.

Fucking moron.

>>55346920
Okay, wizard was a bad example. Instead, look at something tier 2-3 instead.

>>55347086
>King David and Beowulf used giant swords
Really? That sounds awesome.

>>55347123
King David was on the run from King Saul [back before he was King] and came across a group of priests. He asked them if they had any weapons he could spare and they replied all they had was the sword of Goliath the Philistine whom David had slain.

So for that entire chunk of the Bible David was presumably walking around like Guts, using a sword meant for a man almost twice his height.

>>55347143
Clarification, I mean before David was King. And on the top of giant weapons, Gilgames and Enkidu both used like freaking 60 lb daggers. Big weapons are an anime cliche that predates anime by thousands of years. Which is why its so funny to see people spaz out over it.

>>55345616
Well the first step is to enforce spell component rules. The second is to remember that by RAW, you can get an item that gives permanent True Strike for like 4k gold.

>>55347143
>>55347155
While it's sounds cool it raises question why people kept and preserved the sword nobody could use and on top of that why priests did that. It sounds like ancient tradition of sacrificing weapons of slain enemies to war gods which existed in Europe and Middle East.

>>55347192
The sword Goliath used was a one-handed sword used with a shield, so it wasn't actually a buster sword despite my meming. Goliath, assuming we take the biblical account at face value, was 9 feet tall, so his sword even scaled up wouldn't have been outside human use.

And the reason the priests kept it is because it was the sword of fucking Goliath. Dude was huge.

>>55347167
Can you? I thought that 3.5 had a specific exception for spells that granted bonuses like that.

Also, enforcing component rules doesn't fix the core problem; casters taking the spotlight. Now they'll just be whining that they need to go on a detour to grab some bat shit.

>>55346625
The barbarian readied an action to throw an axe to top you, and bad luck, he has Quick Draw, Brutal Throw, and Frenzied Berserker levels so good luck passing that concentration check. Or he's a fighter and has the feat slots to add in Power Throw.

>>55346004
>that's a fucking scratch
Good thing he's doing it 4 times minimum then, and doesn't need spell components, and can do it literally all day.

>>55347086
Cuchulain also had the warp spasm - where he could transform into a horrific fleshbeast and tear things up with constructs made out of his muscles.

>>55345757
This really. Not just a broader range of combat stuff, but also general utility stuff, so it's not just spellcasters doing every non-combat task while the martials stand around waiting to hit stuff.

Play 4e.

File: item proof.png (60KB, 1138x284px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 1138x284px

>>55347238
>Can you?
Yes

>>55347340
I swear there was some caveat about stuff like true strike, though.

>>55347351
If there is I've never seen it in a rulebook. As is, you can get a ring of True Strike that gives +20 to all attack rolls and ignores all is chance, for a mere 8k. For 16 it can even be slotlesss like an Ioun sstone.

>>55347192
Goliath's sword would have been a valuable trophy.
"See this sword? It was wielded by a guy who was 9 feet tall and a real badass. He defied our God. Now he's fukken dead."
>>55347123
Iirc, Beowulf picks up a Giant's Sword and uses it to kill Grendel's Mother.

>>55347089
Tier 3 is where I'd say things start to get reasonable, but that's the point where spellcasters start to have actual limits. It's either partial casters like the bard that don't go to as insane levels with their abilities, or variant casters that are limited to a single school of magic like the Beguiler.

That's what people mean by saying you have to nerf Wizards. Magic needs to be limited in some way to even put it on the level where buffing martials is an option. Once it's there, then you can give them the neat tricks like what you see in Tome of Battle to give them some actual options, and balance the game around the idea that everyone in the group will have something to contribute to the group without being overshadowed.

>>55347365
RAW seems kind of controversial on this because technically true strike doesn't have a duration in rounds it lasts until your next attack before the end of your next round, but I don't really want to argue it just pointing that out.

>>55347167
Spell component pouch

But also, RAW says tower shields provide total cover which lets you make hide checks, which in essence makes you invisible as long as you can pass the hide checks.

>>55347385
>"See this sword? It was wielded by a guy who was 9 feet tall and a real badass. He defied our God. Now he's fukken dead."
I want a game when you can do that to win favor from the gods.
"Let's go by the list: 1 point for something as mundane as a sword or spear, +5 points for weapon which killed 100 or more men, +3 points because it's huge or ugly, 9 points overall multiplied by 2 because your enemy was a badass, 2 for supernatural abilities or traits in our case height and streight, 3 for him being a heathen and 3 for insults against our God. That's whooping 90 points, David! YHWH is pleased by your deeds. Do you want to check all the nice things you can buy with these?"

File: twin peaks one thumb.jpg (80KB, 750x562px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 750x562px

>>55347461
>Magic needs to be limited in some way to even put it on the level where buffing martials is an option

>mfw I already fixed the caster vs martial problem by making Wizards a healing/support class and let the fighters do fighting the best
>mfw the strongest wizards who use trickery and can maybe cast a single offense spell, curse, or summon once per adventure

>>55345616
The funny thing here is that the Barbarian will most like out damage the wizard in this example, because of white damage that was left out.

The likely damage math goes as follows

Wizard will do (20d6)x1.5 save for half in a cone using two meta magic feat on say a cone of cold to get that out come. One spell for increasing the max level scaling because to 20 and one for the x1.5 rolled damage. So about 90 damage but there is a saving throw that could cut that in half.

Barbarian at level 20 should have about a +44 on the charge and should of picked up some thing like say ponce with his feats. Lets say he power attacks for a very safe trade of 8 to hit for a extra 24 damage. His first attack will hit a AC of 38 on a 2 and his follow ups on a 7/13/18/20. He will be hitting for 2d6+53 and will hit about 3 times. So about 180 damage with nothing funny being done. That number could easily be higher based on player reasons alone and can be made MUCH higher via buff spell that give more to hit math to be traded via power attack into damage.


It is very hard for casters to deal more damage then a barbarian with direct damage spells. That is the realm of builds made for that reason and that reason alone. When casters do out damage a well built melee character it is via self buffs to their combat math and then the caster goes into melee.

>>55345616
Conan fought against the odds to be a badass. Follow his lead and stop begging for power, fight for it. Bitch.

>>55346022
>he's talking 5e
So he is talking shit and should be ignored.

>>55347461
I do not think that tier 2 classes are really a issue, it is very much issue with tier 1. Even then it is the top half it most. Wizard, Cleric,Druid, Archivist, and Artificer are simplely put just to damn good. Sorcerer are also tier 1. On paper they are just a touch less powerful the wizard, however in truth a wizard player to is actively using the power of his spell book is far more powerful most of the time then a well made and well played Sorcerer.

Just banning those classes works wonders for balance.

What kind of gish build would I need to play to be like Cu Challain?

>>55347889
>Dumb pathfaggot thinks his shitty game is even relevant in current day and age

>>55347962
Just going to point out the follow...

People think that 5e is more common based on two things, sales and what people are playing on R20. The issue with the first is that pathfinder has been out for a long time and has a srd details to the point that buying a pathfinder book is a optional thing to do. Second Roll20 is mostly for people who can not get into a group or who want some thing on the side. Long running group most keep with a few systems and only changes think if they feel like it.

Pathfinder is still likely more played then 5e and will only lose that title when many of the players move to Starfinder.

So that will happen soon, maybe is a few months.

>>55347950
Not sure which tier system you're using, since Tier 2 is basically full of spontaneous casters like the Sorcerer that are like a Wizard or the other full tier 1 casters, but slightly weaker due to having less spells known.

Still, Tier 3 is certainly the point to balance around, though I'd argue 3.5 has a lot of baggage surrounding it to try and do so.

>>55345941
Infinite rages or infinite anything is pointless, since the casters will need a rest anyway and will force the rest of the party to rest with them.
Same about all those class feats for monks.
In theory it's all nice and well, but in practice a caster will run circles around you.
Casters are broken in D&D, no matter how you put it.

>>55348033
The old wizards of the coast optimization broad tier system, which now that I think about it may be rather dated. It was not based around what class feature but rather a a lengthly process to find if a class could be a 'one man adventuring party". It was a white box run of two on CR for level combats( not ECL which would be at character level minus 3), one combat at one above CR, one combat at two above CR, and one environmental issue to over come. The Test was done at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17.

Side note the old optimization community makes /TG look rather lazy.

>>55345693
That's a full attack action you dunce. Unless you happen to start combat within 5 feet of your enemy, you don't get that.

>>55345616

I like it when prople go on about high level wizards being a onee-man army, and totally forgetting, that a high level fighter is an actual army.

>>55348210
>onee-man
That's something new

>>55345616
I might have an option

>>55348207
>what is pounce

>>55345757
>If Wizards have access to Sleep spells, give the martial an ability that allows them to knock out opponents who are grappled if they fail an Endurance check.

>If the Wizard has access to fireball, give the martials an ability that allows them to perform a spin attack and have it not only hit every enemy within range, but also make it so that it counts as a single attack.

>If mages can warp to an area as a free/move action, give martials the ability to move before and after each attack, and don't make it so they can only perform a single attack if they moved more than 5 ft.

So what you're saying is play 4e

It's amazing how so many things are answered by the two simple words of "play 4e"

>>55346365
>Yfw you rolled Barb when you meant to roll Bard.
>Yfw Barb is too tanky to ever actually die.
>Yfw you have no face because the monster crit-tore it off and you killed it anyways

Fucking Barbarians

>>55348175
>not warning the party they are in grave danger if they rest here
a dungeon is normally a long gauntlet full of danger that should rightfully be difficult to rest in

>>55348207
Yes you do if you play a good edition

>>55346641
Don't play dnd then

>>55347609
>The God Shop: You'll be so overpowered, infidels will cry out "Holy shit!" guaranteed, our you get a free resurrection on us.

>"Whenever the heretics try and stop me, I know I can rely on my God Shop^TM flail of Smite Faggotry. Thanks Big G!"

-Gregory the Rightous, long time customer.

>single fighter/barbarian/martial class isn't seen as a major threat
>any wizard thats 8th level capable or above is seen as a regional power in EVERY edition

Wizards are campaign level threats on their own because that's how they are written. Martials are only the same when magically supported or backing a vast army of other martials who follow them unless they are that assassin who shanks a sleeping wizard.

>>55345616
Melee are OK, the problem is casters.

File: 1502418808166.jpg (84KB, 750x562px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 750x562px

>3.5e
>This entire thread
>choosing 3.5e when death is a viable option

>>55348610
That's why you get the martials to stand guard for you :^)

Play 4e where the Barbarian can actually to staggering burst damage, buff allies by inspiring them to greatness and call on the spirits of his ancestors to bring phantom barbarians back from the afterlife to fight by his side for a time?

Thaneborn barbarians are very fun.

>>55349362
It was fun
but normies are too dumb to play it and gronards hate it

>it is 2017
>he still plays D&D and not anima for high fantasy and gurps for low fantasy

>>55347365
I dunno, maybe it wasn''t in both 3.0 and 3.5 but True Strike is specifically mentioned as an example where the DM should do a check of "does this look insane compared to other established magic items" in the crafting section of the DMG, from what I remember?

>>55349362
>>55349489
>dm mkes scripted as fuck game where out of combat rules don't matter
>uses 5e instead of 4e
It was the most horrid shit I ever played, at least if he used 4e the ombat migh have been OK.

>>55347262
Except he isn't and he is spending resources. If you think fucking blasting us a problem in D&D you shouldn't fucking talk about game balance.

>>55347889
Please, kys

>>55350929
Don't ask others to do stuff you should do yourself.

>>55345616

remember that most humans are one, maybe two hitpoints, and follow the 2e rules. Fighter gets to keep killing one hit dice creatures until he misses. When won't be for, like, 19 swings.

Seriously guys, casters didn't break so hard until 3e. Read the old things and the solutions are obvious.

>>55346965

Well I have pounce and an attack bonus so high my iterative hit everything anyway.

It is nice you don't have to go out of your way, though.

>>55348207
Barbarians get Pounce in every edition of the game but 3.0 you dumb fucker.

>>55348196
That's because the charop boards weren't dogged by braindead retards who derail any attempt at talking about the game with >HURR UR JUST JEALOUS

>>55347543
Use activated sword of true strike is time honored cheese. Like quick draw gonomish quick razor with iajutsu, drawing and resheathing your blade with every swing like a moron.

>>55346625
Just roll a jump and say that you, the literal meat god of pure power, is gonna jump a kilometer into the air.

If the DM says no, he's a bitch boy who wants to cheat you. Stab him later.

>>55347086
Lets not forget that dude who cut a mountain in half with his sword. By accident
Wasn't he also the one that went fucking nuts and ended up on the moon?

>>55346023
>5e was a mistake.
No truer post has ever been posted.

>>55353690
'OP is a faggot'

>>55345616
>>55347878

Basically this.
Find your niche. Perfect your style. Kick some ass.

>>55353674
Chu Chulain. (sp)

>>55347955
Be a cleric with the Rune and War domains. Specialize in spears and willingly take mechanical penalties if you violate an oath.

>>55353779
I was talking about Roland the paladin actually

>>55345616
>I come to take your women, precious metals, and administrative positions.
Jews are barbarians?

>>55354503
kek

>>55345941
> Not casting Maximized Empowered Fireball for 90 damage

File: 2AzmSiZ.jpg (134KB, 1536x2048px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 1536x2048px

4e had the best iteration of melee classes precisely because they treated them similarly to casters and you didn't need to roll so much/make a very specific build to do damage. Obviously 4e had it's issues but if you were to take that philosophy and simplify it a bit, it would be great. Unfortunately 5e ignored that and went backwards completely.

>>55354713
>throwing 90 damage per round out against enemies that have several hundred HP and fire resistance
I don't know what your objective was but if it was sucking, you succeeded.

>>55345941

This math is wrong and you should feel bad. It also ignores most of the Barbarian features and the best melee feat in the game, so you should feel doubly bad.

ATTACK
24 STR is +7
level 20 proficiency is +6
+3 Great Axe is +3
GWF is -5
The total is therefore +11 to hit

Remember that a Barbarian can and should be spamming Reckless Attacks for advantage to all attacks if he wants to hurt people and not tank.

Barbarians get two attacks baseline and Berserker gets a bonus action attack in Frenzy.

DAMAGE
base greataxe 1d12
+3 weapon +3
24 strength +7
Rage DMG bonus +4
GWF DMG +10
TOTAL +24

Remember to that they also get 3 extra dice on crit but I won't be doing the math there

So basically a Berserker trying to eviscerate his enemies has a 3 attacks per turn at +11 made with advantage, dealing 1d12+24 on hits and 5d12+24 on crits.

The average damage is 91.5 if all the attacks hit but don't crit, which given permanent advantage is fairly likely and gives a doubled crit chance for 4d12 extra damage.

A 9th level fireball (not the best example honestly) does 14d6+5 which is 54 average damage per target, save DC 22 for half. Alternatively the same Evoker could just cast it as a maximized 5th level for 65. So is more damage if you hit more than one target, but spread across multiple targets instead of focused. Even a 20d6 spell that hit a single target attack would only be 70 average. This is not even getting to the fact that if you know anything about magic you'd know that doing direct damage with a 9th level spell is fundamentally retarded compared to what you could be doing, but hey the OP was talking about blasting so Evoker I guess.

So does blasting caster utterly shame Barbarian in damage? If you're looking at clearing a room of weaker enemies, the answer is very much yes although Wizard uses resources while the Barbarian would not. For single target damage Barbarian is much better, being resource free and higher single target damage.

>>55354954
> 90 < 70
> All monsters have fire resistance
> What are area attacks?
> What are minions?

>>55347609

That's actually pretty much how demonic weapons work in Black Crusade. Steal an ancient Imperial artifact weapon and your modifiers for the binding roll get ridiculous.

>>55347086

Kay is attributed with a number of further superhuman abilities, including the ability to go nine days and nine nights without the need to breathe or to sleep, the ability to grow as "tall as the tallest tree in the forest if he pleased" and the ability to radiate supernatural heat from his hands. Furthermore, it is impossible to cure a wound from Cai's sword

Cú Chulainn is known for his terrifying battle frenzy, or ríastrad[6] (translated by Thomas Kinsella as "warp spasm"[7] and by Ciaran Carson as "torque"),[8] in which he becomes an unrecognisable monster who knows neither friend nor foe


Heros should be awesome

>>55351021
This.
This guy gets it.

>>55347167
This isn't accurate. At all.

Closer to 400k gold. Which makes it beyond epic.

>>55347543
The munchkin-tier tg posters ignore such details. It doesn't fit their narrative.

>>55349515
It is. 3.5 DMG p282 sidebar, last few sentances:
>... and other items require at least some DM judgement calls. Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples.
3.5 DMG p214, Sidebar: Variant: New Magic Items
>In the same way that a PC spellcaster can research a new spell, a PC may be able to invent a new kind of magic item. And just as you have to be careful about new spells, you need to be careful with new magic items.

Strictly speaking, yeah 8k is the baseline gold price of the thing, but considering he's looking to have a constant +20 Insight Attack bonus... a more apt comparison would be the AC Bonus (Other) prices, which are 2.5 the standard.

So, it would be more reasonably priced at 20^2*2500 or 1,000,000gp.

>>55359321
As an addendum: If you really want to munchkin it up, diversifying into other bonus types is cheaper than increasing a bonus to +3.

Difference between +1 &+2 in AC bonus: 3,000gp
Difference between +2 & +3 in AC bonus: 5000gp.
Creating an item with +1 in an alternative bonus: 2,500 (2,000 defleciton)
Adding an alternative AC bonus type to the Armor: 3,750 (3,000 deflection)

Saves diversify at the same price as deflection. You can get up to +7 on all save on one item for just 19,000 (Competence, Insight, Luck, Morale, Profane/Sacred, all +1 and Resistance +2) With any of them being able to be increased by 1 for 9,000gp on any of the subtypes.

>Level 20 cleric wishes death upon his enimies
>They all instantly die
PERKINNNNNNNNNSSSSSS

File: b4f.jpg (24KB, 600x451px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 600x451px

>>55359321
>closest thing to true strike is +20 Enhancement
>+20 Sword would cost 800k
>True Strike achives half of that so 400k

also since True Strike only lasts for one attack you'd have to activate it as a standard action before every attack so its even less effective

>>55360224
Yes, but True Strike provides a Insight bonus, not Enhancement. Alternative bonus types tend to cost more for less. And he's talking about a continuous, not a use activated or command word. (Though command word is only a 10% discount, and use activated is the same price as continuous.)

>>55348030
>move to Starfinder

Why would that even happen? If you're playing fantasy and would move to sci-fantasy just because it's the newest thing by [your company], then you're nothing but a drone.

>>55360538
>Why would that even happen? If you're playing fantasy and would move to sci-fantasy just because it's the newest thing by [your company], then you're nothing but a drone.
>then you're nothing but a drone.

He's playing Pathfinder, that's a given.

>>55360551
Or, Or just maybe moving from fantasy to sci-fantasy is a easy move for a group and a great many groups like the idea of it but do not do it because the options ( 40k, current star wars) suck ass.

Starfinder likely has a shit ton of flaws because it was normal for that type of game, but they are not known yet. There is still hope.

Also I am saying that some of the people who play pathfinder will move at lest for a time, not all or even most of them. Just a level that will make pathfinder less played then 5e.

>He's playing Pathfinder, that's a given.

That is a assumption, a safe one but still a assumption. I run world of darkness these days mostly.

>>55347086
It's because you're playing them as weeb trash, not like Gilgamesh.

>>55360538
Starfinder actually looks pretty shit, outside the hype of new system and SPESS

>>55360982
completely this

File: 1397061336729.jpg (66KB, 549x523px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 549x523px

>>55355222
You completely deserve those trips.

File: True Strike.png (182KB, 1264x295px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 1264x295px

>>55347543
>>55358058
Look like it lasts one round or until discharged to me.

>>55360224
Wrong. Use activated/continuous is spell levelxcaster levelx2,000gp, plus another multiplier based on duration. Continuous True Strike means +20 Insight to every attack you make.

>>55345616
The wizard spell would force a save which is similar to AC but it's on a tighter band which means + save bonuses will fuck it up.

The barbarian would also have damage bonuses from strength, weapon enchantment, feats, and other tactics. In D&D a barbarian or fighter caster could easily surpass the 50 damage threshold to drop a foe to 0 hp, they could also do it in AOE and jump (literally) around the battlefield doing massive damage insta death AOEs all day long. People still complained that was too weak.

>>55345940
the standard rule was a 50 damage threshold to KO an opponent so yes they kill everything in one round.

>>55364261
In the two modern editions that use saves (instead of defenses) bad saves scale hilariously badly, and a high level wizard usually has ample options to target bad saves. If anything, the advantage there should go to the wizard.

>>55355222
It should also be noted that, in general, fighting a horde of low level enemies should barely hurt a barbarian (lots of HP, should get a reasonable AC, rage for resistance), while a wizard should be unable to hit ALL enemies with one spell is far more likely to be impacted by their weaker attacks (lack of HP, lower AC, has to spend spells to gain avoidance / AC).

>>55364311
No they don't scale bad. If you look at them they scale at half pace. The good save is 12 base and the bad is 6 at level 20. Your high saves aren't determined by class base saves but by the bonuses you can stack. Feats that let you replace your save's primary attribute with another such as con for will saves. Items that give +5 to all saves, and all the other various advantages. You could easily get in excess of 30 on your saves by level 20. When you take epic levels all saves scale the same.

I know 5th edition did saves differently based on each attribute but fuck that clusterfuck.

>>55364346
And having a 6 difference in a good/bad save vs a 2 difference at level 1 is not hilariously bad scaling? What the fuck are you smoking, son?

>>55364344
It should be noted that the high level wizard will have a simulacra of himself permanently polymorphed into a fucking balor.

File: 1467534126237.png (300KB, 600x568px) Image search: [Google]

300KB, 600x568px

>>55345616
>Using blaster scum instead of superior save or die.

>>55345616
heres how to fix all problems with DnD
play for fun and use the rules as more of guidelines
don't play to have the most numbercrunched character, instead roleplay, play your roles for fun

3e Barbarian, fighter, Frenzied Berzerker.

Half-Orc or whatever str bonus race.

20 str to start, 25 by level 20, +5 from item. Total 30 str.
While raging +4 str (it will stack) so 34 str while raging, frenzied rage also stacks for extra +6 and 40 str total.
Strength bonus for two handed weapon is 1.5, from +15 mod that's a damage bonus of +22 damage.
+2 damage from weapon specialization.
+5 to hit and damage from weapon.
Supreme cleave is a turn in of -1 to hit for +4 damage, up to any penalty not exceeding your base attack bonus.

Damage output on a great axe is 31-41 without penalty, with -10 penalty it will be 71-81 damage.

Attack bonus for each attack will be +41/+36/+31/+26/+41 (extra attack from frenzy)

base damage potential of 155-205 per round without penalties, with -10 its 355-405 per round.

This is without any optimization or any damage enhancements to weapon. Oh they're immune to dying while they rage too.

>>55364497
Yes, Frenzied berzerker sure is a fun way to murder your whole party.

>>55364362
No it's not, because at the end of the day this is what is looks like.

Good Saves: 12+25 = 32
Bad Saves: 6+25 = 27

While you could have situational bonuses or other specific bonuses that raise your bad save over your good save. The difference it drowned out by the various bonuses.

>>55364506
Either say fuck em or it's not an issue in a party that gets with the program. If another player dies to a frenzied party member then they deserved to die just as much as if they stepped into the wizard's aoe.

>>55364518

>Good Saves: 12+25 = 32
>Bad Saves: 6+25 = 27

That should be 37 and 31, right?

And you just plain don't understand how statistics works. It doesn't matter what the total bonuses are in themselves, they only matter in the relation with the DC (and hence, in relation to each other).

With a DC of 50 (if we are pulling numbers out of our ass anyway), you'd be looking at the +31 save needing a 19+ and and the +37 guy needing a 13+. One has 10% chance to succeed on the save, the other has 40%. That 30% is the difference of 6 makes.

>>55346556

5e Battlemaster Fighters.

>>55364613
lol what don't I understand about statistics?

DC 50? We are not pulling numbers out of anywhere. By the time you get a DC 50 you already have had multiple many ways to increase your save over the DC count.

You fundamentally don't understand how these two things scale differently. Saves continuing to scale from multiple sources and DC relying only on casting ability score and occasional once only feat for specific school/descriptor after 9th level spells.

If you want something more comparable then look at the difference between the 50% mark, so low save is 20% where high save is 50%. By the 4th attempt both at asymptotically approaching 0% chance to succeed.

>>55345693
>Level 20 Barbarian hits for 2d6+25/2d6+25/2d6+25/2d6+25/1d8+18/1d8+18
What is this faggotry?
Write down the build, if you can, fucking liar.

>>55364742
>lol what don't I understand about statistics?

>If you want something more comparable then look at the difference between the 50% mark, so low save is 20% where high save is 50%. By the 4th attempt both at asymptotically approaching 0% chance to succeed.

Apparently, you do understand enough that you know you need to move goal posts. That's something, I guess. We are not talking about a wizard throwing 4 spells, we are talking about throwing 1.

>>55345616
>How do we fix melee classes?

Sorry, dude...

High level wizards are SUPPOSED to be more powerful than melee classes.

>>55364799
...seriously? I'm not even that guy and that's lowballing a level 20 PF Barbarian massively, which is obviously what he's talking about. 16 starting STR+5 innate+5 levels+6 enhancement. Boots of Haste, +5 greatsword, +6 belt of STR, all things that are utterly trivial to have by level 20. Take the Beast Totem, Animal Fury, and Reckless Abandon rage powers. Rage, power attack, Boots of Haste, charge, Reckless Abandon. Your Barbarian is now attacking at +43/+43/+37/+32/+27 for 2d6+45 each with the greatsword and +30 for 1d4+20 for the bite. His mistake was assuming you can use claws and a weapon at the same time.

File: jason-nguyen-windknightv2-jasonnguyen.jpg (371KB, 1000x1400px) Image search: [Google]

371KB, 1000x1400px

>>55364652
They can do none of the epic shit that Wizards can. Their basic tricks work for <lvl10 range at max -
the maneuver system is cool, i just wish there were more high level options there.

>>55364652
Are really, really bad at what he wants.

>When you take out multiple enemies with a well placed spell while the martials flail about trying to kill one
Like pottery

>>55365887
>Adding a +6 enhancement bonus with a +6 belt of strength
These things don't stack and your post is disregarded

>>55366180
That's where the +6 enhancement comes from you fucking dumbass.

>>55345616
How much HP does your barbarian have?

Is there a limit of how many times you can swing your axe?

Do you have each day memorize which axe attacks you will spend medidating?

Of course wizards are stronger, their gameplay is much more complex and limited. That doesn't change it's very stupid going into a dungeon without a Tank.

>>55366164
>Damage class (inb4 WoW, sue me) makes more damage
Woah

>>55348582
>Not Multiclassing into Bard and playing a BardBarian Skald, shouting war chants and paeons of blood and glory

>>55364818
By the point that one spell decides combat your saves already far surpass the DC. You clearly don't understand the system at all if you think the 6 point difference matters when you're high enough level that there is a 6 point base difference.

Let's review your example again with a DC 50. On a 9th level spell that's base DC of 9, + 3 for epic spell focus, total 22. Let's assume a wide berth for splatbook feats of +5 to your DC, so 27, with 23 that need to be made up from casting ability. Assume a sun elf wizard, max starting int. By level 20 you have 30 int (+5 item), you need 13 DC points from epic int increases. So you'll need to be level 66 by which point base saves would be 35 and 29. Assuming something like gold dwarf paladin or blackguard, maybe kensei with stalwart feat with only a 30 con and 20 cha you can have +15 all saves, protection from spells and racial bonus is +10, that would bring you up to good save 60, bad 54, that's not really optimizing or using items.

Okay but those levels are insane so it's a strawman, right?! right?!?! Well who brought up the unrealistic scenario, not me. The realistic scenario that you have that same character at level 20 with the same bonuses, +10 all from con, +5 all from cha, +8 from protection from spells, + 2 racial. So base saves + 25 all without any real optimization vs a DC sun elf wizard, greater focus, 30 int, total DC of 32. This Dorf is literally DC-spell immune.

If you actually knew how the game worked you wouldn't have been whinging the whole time about a 6 point difference by level 20+. If you want to go nuts with optimization you can stack resistance, luck, insight, racial, sacred. and profane bonuses. By magic item creation rules you could by RAW get +5 saves in all but racial.

DC magic is literally a crapshoot, any baby knows this much.

>>55366221
>Damage class (inb4 WoW, sue me) makes more damage
Damage class with infinitely more utility, healing ability, and, arguably, more survivability. Oh and they can wish for anything they want.

Ftfy.

>>55366180
enhancement stacks with other typed bonuses, rage for example stacks with any bonus since it isn't typed. Most spells and items give enhancement bonuses so they wont stack.

>>55366263
Depends on other factors like items. There are no rules on combat fatigue and with feats or class features rage fatigue can be eliminated. So they can keep killing after a wizard is out of spells. You can wish but it's a wasted spell slot because it's highly limited. Eventually you can qualify for more damage reduction and even fast healing.

>>55366263
Which magical class you are exactly referring? Because it seems you are spouting random things without actually thinking.

Regardless, please attempt a master dungeon with a good GM without a tank and post results.

But if you don't want to get out of comfort, please download Dark Spire DS (a game that works in DnD system) and try making a party without a frontline with high armor class. Post results.

>>55366349
Wizardry melee classes are way better than their D&D equivalents and Wizardry spellcasters are way worse. Given that Dark Spire is basically a Wizardry game...

>>55366251
>>55366263
Please tell me you aren't arguing that a certain edition of D&D is balanced because there's a videogame that's harder without having melee guys in your party

>>55345616
>wasting a hit with a damage spell with no save DC

WHAT YOU DOING YOU CUNT, JUST USE WISH

>>55366211
depends on the edition.

3.PF you absolutely could go without a "tank". My group had numerous tines because we know enough about the system that you play a spellcaster or accept that you can suffer a stroke and die during the session and still be contributing the same amount.

Doesn't help that our DM despises third party and refuses to let anyone play path of war classes.

>>55366372
> this doesn't count
Okay anon. Please pick any DnD game and go without a tank class or support and tell me how you do having to stop and meditate because you are out of casts.

yes the sorcerer with power over time, space and matter should be of equal power level to the angry orc with a club

>>55366211
>tank
>not just anyone being careful or tough enough to be alive when everyone else is dead, nab the bodies and leg it

>>55366498
>Okay anon. Please pick any DnD game and go without a tank class

Both Druid and Cleric work as adequate "tank class" in 3rd and on.

>and tell me how you do having to stop and meditate because you are out of casts.

Rope trick or tiny hut.

>>55366498
3 Cleric/1 Wizard worked fine in Knights of the Chalice.

>>55366498
Pretty well actually. Beyond level.... 3 or so, most of the times we stopped to rest was because out maritals were low on health. Casters just don't really run out of spells before fighters run out of health beyond a certain point.

I'll 1v1 anyone here in pathfinder as a martial and you play a sorcerer. Will put 100 dollars on me winning.

>>55366667
Autism Fighter doesn't really count.

>>55345616
>Doesn't include strength bonus
>Doesn't include magic weapon
>Mentions AC but ignores saves and damage resistance
Are you the same troll that posts "Since we all known 5e is crap..." threads every five seconds?

>>55366685
Why doesn't autism fighter count?

What, your God wizard can't defeat a super fast, teleporting barbarian who will slap your spells aside without blinking and has saves in the hundreds?

>>55366774
lol use one of the million spells that don't care about saves

>>55366774
The only way that barb is winning is if hee wins initiative and starts in melee range, and the wizard has brain damage and didn't buff himself up before the fight.

>>55366667
>I'll 1v1
Found the retard. Classes are meant to be used in actual campaigns, in which they mostly work well enough, and not 1v1 arenas.

>>55366523
Yes, that will work if the RNG gods are with you. If not however you are going to get hit, which will really suck with your pitful hp poll and low AC.

>>55366537
Druid and Clerics aren't damage classes, so of course they live better than wizards. And they are still not better at tanking than martials.

>>55366559
>Knights Of The Chalice uses a highly modified and simplified form of the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 rules

>>55366577
> Pretty well, but we used martials.
So you missed the point?

> fighters run out of health
Basic healing potion. Do you have a mana potion to recover your casts?

>>55367236
>And they are still not better at tanking than martials.

Oh please tell me how a druid turned into a bear with a bear animal companion and a cadre of summoned bears somehow tanks worse than a fighter.

File: intelligence below average.png (143KB, 800x1000px) Image search: [Google]

143KB, 800x1000px

>>55367236
>And they are still not better at tanking than martials.

>>55367252
>druid turned into a bear
From the wildshapes I've seen it tends to actually lower your survivality in exchange for extra punch
>bear animal companion
additional big investment and you need to spend resources to keep him good
>cadre of summoned bears
don't tell me you actually believe this, summoning looks excellent on paper but in actual fights it's unreliable as fuck

A severely optimized animal companion druid is gonna be much better at tanking and damage than an average martial, because I've seen one in action, but arguably if the fighter received the same amount of splatbook buffs that were instead cast on the animal, he'd be nearly as good.

Though the biggest problem about animal companions is that they're still animals, that's why if I were to pick a facetank for my party, I'd prefer a martial.

>>55367321
>If [party member] receives all the buffs as [not party member] did he'd be almost as good as [not party member]
Please stop defeating your own argument.

>>55367418
It's [party member] and [not party member optimized as much as possible]. Shitposting is not a race, take a while to read the posts thoroughly.

>>55367252
Does your bear or your few summoned bears have better AC and HP than a levelled fighter?

>>55367302
>ad hominem because I have no arguments

>>55345716
>magic takes time to cast
Not in D&D it doesnt. Adding a casting time to spells would be rad.

>>55367492
HP and AC aren't what determine how good you are at 'tanking'.

>>55367492
>Does your bear or your few summoned bears have better AC and HP than a levelled fighter?

Are you asking if multiple bears have more HP than a single fighter?

Yes. Yes they have. And summoning more is way more economical than healing. the fighter.

>>55367529
They literally are what helps you endure damage and avoid hits.

>>55367537
First off anon, which level is your druid? And how many castings he plans to use for bears? Let's put this into context.

>>55367537
>>55367586
Also system, don't forget.

>>55367586
Yeah, it's not like DR or immunities or temporary HP or miss chance exist and AC isn't dominated by enemy attack bonuses anyways or anything.

>>55367628
Sure anon. Please post the DR, immunities or whatever of those bears, druid level, how many so I can put it into context with a fighter.

>>55367586
>First off anon, which level is your druid? And how many castings he plans to use for bears? Let's put this into context.

Well, I was thinking d&d 3.5 around 6-ish, since that's when bears become broadly available as companions and forms, IIRC.

>They literally are what helps you endure damage and avoid hits.

But they don't make enemies attack you. You could have a fighter with 1 million HP and over 9000 AC, and it'd matter diddly if he didn't have something to draw attacks with (or they bypassed that with a will save).

A bear, meanwhile, has grapple on hit with massive STR bonuses, and is large sized with reach. It controls a lot more area than a baseline fighter.

The question should never be "How do we fix martials."

The question should always be "How do we fix casters."

>>55367705
>We should make everything less interesting!
>Neve rmind that legendary martials from mythology always did all sorts of bullshit!
>Everything must be nerfed down to the most boring level possible!

>>55367885
>if you can't solve anything instantly with a spell, things get less interesting

strawmen are a two way street

>>55367321
>if the fighter received the same amount of splatbook buffs that were instead cast on the animal,

>Be raccoon anus druid
>Want to be munchkin to the max
>Summon bear
>Spend all my spells buffing bear
>I could have buffed the PC fighter instead, but that wouldn't let me be a douchebag
>Laugh and call fighters inferior as I ruin the Game
>We agree to make new character
>I pick druid again, because I'm that guy
>My enjoyment in ttrpgs, comes from ruining other players fun

Sounds about right

Every druid I've seen in the last few years, has been a complete douche.

Much like kender as a race...the class draws a certain type of asshole.

>>55368476
>I could have buffed the PC fighter instead,
Is the Fighter an animal? Does he have the Share Spells feature so he can get the Druid's much more powerful Personal buffs? The answer to both of those is no, so no, the Druid can't buff him like he can his animal companion.

>>55368527
Oh? Druids don't have buff spells for non animals?

Odd...I didn't know that. I'd swear I've seen them...

>>55368556
They have some buff spells that are okay, like Bull's Strength and Snowshoes, but almost every single buff they have is better used on them or their animal companion. Why Bull's Strength the Fighter when you could be giving your animal companion and summons Animal Growth or sharing Bite of the X?

>>55368556
I mean, why spend those on the unbuffed fighter when you can use those and the more specific ones on your animal companion instead?

Also, the very fact that you have to debate whether to use your spells on the Fighter who is a constant money sink with magic weapons and healing potions who is sucking up a significant fraction of the XP the group earns versus the free class feature that you get in addition to your full caster speaks volumes about how significant this problem actually is.

When the debate is Fighter vs. Bear rather than Fighter vs. Druid, you know class balance has failed.

Hilarious.

>Druid focuses on buffing only himself or pet
>Refuses to buff the fighter, because the bear could get +2 more strength

Then points at the balance issues his actions cause, and declare fighters subpar.

Typical, of every druid player.

>>55368829
>not paying attention

Bull's strength is weak shit. Being able to cast self-only buffs and your animal companion getting them for free is where it's at.

>>55368829
It's more like

>Fighter has somewhat better HP and AC
>Bear is better in a lot of other categories, including size and grappling, and can get better buff spells

The Bear is a more logical target regardless. And remember, the Bear comes with a free Druid. The Fighter doesn't.

>>55368857
If it was a solo game, sure.

Is it?

>>55368915
You're right. It's a team,game. Which makes it a little unfair when one person gets to play as 2+ characters and,another gets to play as one that needs another to function well.

>>55368915
Your companions were dead weight anyways, except for your druid heal/buff bot

>>55368915
Except instead of having a Fighter and,a Druid buffing him, you could have two Druids each with their own animal companion.

If you want to play a Fighter and contribute to the team that much, ask your DM if you can refluff your Bear as a knight you're playing as with the Druid being your Elf girlfriend who can shower you with buffs and cure spells like you want.

>>55345693
>He thinks he can use claws with 2hd weapon
Hehehehehe

>>55368965
Go to town.

Let the treehumper try to get the guards to allow bears or wolves inside.

>>55345716
Don't know which of these were houserules and core, but that's how we played it back when we still used AD&D:

At the start of a turn, everyone declared actions. This could be "I run up to this dude and attack", "I cast fireball" etc. Then everyone rolled their initiative for the round (d10). Weapons and spells had their individual initiative modifiers, with daggers being very fast and two-handed weapons being rather slow, and powerful spells usually having a high modifier (up to 9).
During your turn, your announced action happened. If it became invalid (because the target moved out of sight/range, for example) you could slightly alter it - move around, change target etc. - at the DMs discretion. Otherwise, your turn and possibly the spell were wasted.

If you took any damage at all, a concentration roll was in order. I don't quite remember what we rolled there; could have been a casting stat check with a penalty equal to the damage taken (i.e. with an INT of 16 and 5 damage, roll 11 or under on the d20).

It worked quite well and would have made casters really vulnerable and in need of protection, were it not for long-lasting stoneskins, mirror images and the like that outright negated hits. Also, it invited lots of arguments about realism and DM rulings when your action was declared invalid.

All in all, I find the downsides outweigh the upsides a little bit, compared to the total caster supremacy of the streamlined rules of later editions.

>>55364282
>that
>standard
I recommend you to reread massive damage rules, you'll notice they look nothing like you posted and also that they aren't standard

>>55345941
>only two attacks
Grab Tiger totem or GWM, bro

>>55369053
Ah, gotcha.

The game isn't about having fun with your buddies and adventures in a fantasy land. It's about trying to abuse the rules to create the most powerful character you can, and make the other players not enjoy it.

Weird. I've been doing it wrong.

>>55369067
And once they're in town, I'm sure the Fighter will be able to make good use of his high Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma to participate in urban activities that would require a lot of sneaking and social skills?

Plus if a Fight breaks out, the Druid can always summon more bears.

>>55369079
I recall those rules being rather default in Ad&d, except I think if you got hit you lost the spell Period.

>>55351149
And you're still worse than the caster in every way.

>>55368829
>+2 more strength
More like +16 more strength and that's if the Fighter doesn't even have a STR belt. If he does, why bother with Bull's Strength at all?

>>55346023
Only fighters get 4.

AD&D was like that too actually. Lots of attacks, getting to keep all your gold (ranger and paladin donated anything they couldn't carry that wasn't their armor and weapon, because 'muh holy warrior'), plus a literal army at 9th was Fighter's reason to be fighter not some other warrior kit class.

>>55369132
Yeah, that bit might have been a houserule.

>>55368829
Why would druid spend spells on others? If he buffs himself he buffs for free the animal companion, that's 2 buffs for only 1 spell. Would be stupid not to do it, /tg/ loves to point out that casters don't have infinite spells and that they have to use them effectively, boom, done, I'm buffing me and my companion, 2 for the price of 1.

>>55369132
Con check allowed.

The damages were added to your check. Basically a long sword or bigger, and you weren't making the check.

>>55369111
>wants to enjoy a fun game
>plays 3.5

Maybe pick a game that doesn't break in half the instant any 12 year old playing decides that wolves are cool?

>>55346390
How is this card supposes to work? If you tap you can't attack or block.

>>55368829
>Cast buff on fighter
>"Sorry, doesn't work, he already has enhancement bonus due the belt"
Why even bother, I cast it on myself and on my AC for free.

>>55346538
The worst part are idiots not even knowing what D&D it is. Bunch of pathfinder idiots not knowing that the OP is talking about 5e and putting their useless opinions in.

>>55369150
Plus a castle, a good leveling rate, and grand mastery in weapons.

>>55369167
>I never played mtg

You can block, and when it's asigned as blocker, then tap it.
Stuff like "gains vigilance" also exists, so you can attack, and then tap it.

>>55369180
>20d6 at level 20
>no bro he's talking about 5E trust me

>>55346450
Golden calves it made in 3.5.

Go back to d4 HD no concentration checks just instantly lost if hit, and wizards will need warriors again.

>>55369194
https://astranauta.github.io/spells.html#meteor%20swarm
Fucking idiot.

>>55369118
>Plus if a Fight breaks out, the Druid can always summon more bears.

>Fight breaks out in town square
>Druid summons bear army
>Screaming and panicking horses everywhere
>Guards start killing bears and the freak that is summoning them
>Druid tries to stop them
>Guards send for help
Ya..
Wtf kind of stupidity does your dm allow?

>>55346641
If it's too weeb for warriors it's too weeb for wizards.
Drop them down or boost fighters up but match tone.

>>55369164
Playing with 12 year olds are you?

>Why don't you have a seat over there...

>>55365887
+1 for a civilized reply and a good barbarian build but...
What if OP referred to 3.5?
I asked for build, not equipment. If so, we should add equip to the wizard too.

>>55368829
Even if Clerics and Druids didn't exist Fighters would still be garbage because they inevitably fall prey to the size/SLA creep that inevitably happens as monster CR goes up.

>>55369213
>20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning damage

>>55369243
>what are resistances that literally every monster above cr13 has

>>55369229
Same shit happens with slightly different numbers except now the Barbarian gets Pounce at level 1 and has less reasons to stay in class.

>>55346871
>enemy has to waste their USELESS REACTION, BECAUSE WIZARDS DON'T AOO, TO CAST COUNTERSPELL
Ftfy

>>55369265
Not relevant to the OP's post. You're assuming OP is talking about 5E when nothing points to it then blaming people for not talking about 5E.

>>55369265
So you count resistances for the wizard but not the barb?

>>55369216
You're right

>Fight breaks out in town square
>Fighter begs for Druid to biff him because he cant get his sword up
>Druid is outside because he's wise enough to know the town is trouble for his kind

Much better outcome. I'm sure that getting in a fight in the middle of a crowded town square isn't already going to get the party in a heap of trouble regardless of bears.

>>55369227
Yeah, typically I was playing with 12 year olds back when I was 12. Of course, 12 year old me was still smart enough to recognize that my Fighter sucked sick compared to the Druid's wolf.

Haven't played 3.5 since and I couldn't be happier

>>55369265
Then it will be 20d6 bludgeoning and 10d6 fire, that's 30d6 not 20d6 like in OP's post.

>>55369297
Magic weapons bypass resistances.

>>55369297
Yes because magical weapons are a common thing to find through 20 levels of adventure or just buying.

>>55346365
Barbarian has d12 HD, higher AC, a strength cap 5 higher, higher damage, and can resist all but psychic damage, while bard spell list is mostly support spells and wis save/sucks that don't work on things immune to charm?

>>55369328
>>55369332
see >>55369324

>>55367682
Druid Lv6. Okay, that gives you 5 3 3 2 spells slots.

Suppose you equip 2 3rd level with Summon Nature Ally III for bears. That gives you 2d3 black bears. I will suppose you roll max and gets 6 black bears.

Now you equip 3 2nd level with Nature Ally II for bears. Now you get extra 3 black bears. So like an idiot you just used 5 spell castings for 9 bears.

Now you go and uses your 3 1st spell slots for summoning 3 wolves. So 9 bears + 3 wolves. Then you go and add yourself 5 hp with your tricks. Okay. Keep in mind too that you are using all of your daily spell castings in this battle.

Supposing you are the luckiest person in the world and only rolled max, you have 3 wolves with 13 hp. You have 9 black bears with 19 hp. You, yourself, boosted with 5 hp is now at 48hp.

You also have an animal companion: a lv6 wolf. He has 54hp, with +4 natural armor, devotion, evasion and all that jazz.

First off, an animal army is very idiotic. Okay, suppose I'm the fighter. I have just 60hp plus great cleave. I can literally clear your entire animal army. Your animal companion could like survive until turn 2, but then he would be immediately wiped out by my superior equipment and multiple attacks.

But the matter was tanking. And as you can see your animal army is stupid against a lv6 fight. Now lets suppose a lv6 wizard came at us with fireball or lightning. Your entire army is dead. You survive, wounded and maybe your animal companion can evade it completely.

The fighter however has a much higher chance of saving for half. But a fighter will also have a shield, which by lv6 would be enchanted. So the fighter did tank the wizard better than your army of bears.

A stronger unit is usually better than a weaker one. You could use wildshape to become whatever monster, but until you unlock Large size the fighter will tank much better.

>>55369340
>Higher AC
Arguable, also bladesinger would want to have a word with you.

>>55366685
>autism fighter
can you explain / give link?

>Druid can have a bear with 3 attacks or an allosaurus with anther 3 attacks or other bullshit ACs at motherfucking 1st level that completely invalidate any non motherfuckingly minmaxed martial
>He also can have like 5 allosaurus at 5th level all of them only 1 level behind him
Fuck this game, PF is the worst

Thank god that even if it's 100% RAW and RAI nobody would ever allow Pact Lord

>>55348547
Can I have 4e abilities without 4e mechanics? Because really truly that's what I want.

I want those effects available, but not in the 4e framework.

>>55369350
1) Augment Summoning bumps their HP and offense up significantly.
2) A sword and board Fighter isn't going to do shit with Great Cleave. Their damage is far too low for that.
3) Dire Wolf summon. Your Fighter's not beating 29 STR and 57 HP at level 5 or 6.

>>55366667
Unless you go Fighter Mutation Warrior VMC Barbarian, yeah, I will fight you as a Sorcerer (which isn't even the strongest caster at all).

>>55369428
Legend.

3.5 is a schizophrenic system.

When it comes to martials, the rules are simulationist. Melee attacks have an extremely limited range, there are tradeoffs to swing more forcefully, grappling is a huge rules knot with lots of bonuses and maluses depending on circumstance and things like size. When a martial tries to do anything, it's like he needs to justify what allows him to do it.

When it comes to magic, the system is pure gamist. Nothing needs to make sense. In the fluff, spells are long and specific, which is how they justify vancian magic, so you should expect very specific results... but it's not the case. Knock just opens door. It automatically detects the exact door mechanism and opens it forcefully. Spells get more and more powerful as the wizard gains levels without any real justification.The specific instructions to deal 5d6 damage with a fireball just becomes 6d6 as the wizard grows more powerful. The instructions to turn a frog into a dragon also let you turn a hill giant into a sheep, for some reason. Nothing has to be justified and it's entirely out of line with what the rest of the system is trying to do.

>>55369350
>Spending all the spell slots on one fight

Or, you summon 3 bears and,have your animal companion go forward. That's more total HP than the Fighter, and remember that they have actual riders on their attacks. The enemy Wizard using a fireball to try and,clear,them out is good, because it means that he was targetting the ultimately disposable animals and,dealing less overall damage to actual party members. If it's just the Fighter instead, he may opt to use a single target spell that won't be shrugged off as easily and will be directed at an actual party member for sure.

So yes, those 3 Black bears are as good as a Fighter with 60 HP for a Fight, especially if you're fighting many smaller enemies rather than one big one. Which of course, is the sort of thing you need tanks most for.

And of course, your Fighter with Great Cleave isn't as useful at fighting a lone wizard compared to the animal army, since Feats force you to specialize. Meanwhile, if the Druid needs a different sort of tank, he can pick one when he summons. Rather than 3 bears, you could go for a singular big thing or many more small things.

And or course, this is also discouting whatever the Druid himself does in later rounds

>>55369350

>Augment Summoning
>Greenbound Summonings

Sorry, you were saying?

>>55366667
It all comes down to winning initiative and making the SoS or SoD save. Literally up to chance.

>>55366667
>Has to pick the weakest full caster to win
Kek

>>55351021
Very much this.

3.5 is where so many things went wrong.
They dropped some of them permanently, but there are so many more that need reverting still.

2e wasn't perfect by any means, but It's really obvious Wizards went in and changed a bunch of things as a power move to make it "theirs" that were in complete disregard for gameplay.

>>55369428
What edition do you want to play it in. Regardless, you're gonna have to look up the 4e handbook so you can see how those abilities are distributed.

>>55369475
Martial rules are really shitty simulationist rules. You can't even do half of what you really could.

>>55347086
>Hercules could hold up the fucking sky
Racial, He's a demigod
>King David and Beowulf used giant swords
Feats for this exist
>Cuchulain used rune magic
Sounds like a gish
>King Arthur's brother Sir Kay could grow 20 feet tall and shoot fire from his hands
Definitely a gish

>>55369067
Reduce animal is a 2nd level druid spell.

>>55369479
>+10 to Str, +2 to Dex, +8 to Con
>DR 10/Magic and Slashing
>Fast healing 3
>Last twice time
>Other goodies
Man, Druids are so weak

>>55347461
This is why in Starfinder all casters are tier3 bard spontaneous caps at level 6 casters.

>>55369216
Druid is an animal expert, spells and empathy allows him to calm the horses.

>>55369067
>He doesn't know druds have spells
You could teleport it to your position whenever you need it, or turn it into a dog, or make it look like a dog, make it invisible or whatever

>>55369564
It's +6 to STR and +4 to CON but the SLAs and other features are still ultra broken. Getting a 5th level spell for 1st level slots is beyond bullshit.

>>55369453
1)4 CON isn't going to do shit against at a lv6 cleave fighter. Nor is it going to save them from a lv6 spell.

2)A fighter can use several weapons and can change conform situation. Obviously the warrior in example 1 isn't the one in example 2.

3) The argument was an army of bears. But if you want to do it, a dire wolf has low AC, moderate BA and no extra attacks. It's really not big deal. If you summon 3 however that would be trouble, but you are also using all your spell slots.

>>55369216
>Horses
>Afraid when there's a druid near
Man, that's a shitty druid if he can't talk to horses

>>55369216
>fight breaks out
>guards see the Fighter they let in with his weapons is involved in it
>arrest him
>Druid turns into a bird and flies away

>>55369606
>+4 str +4 con from augmented
>+6 str +4 con from greenbound
>"It's +6 to STR and +4 to CON"
Your math seems to be off

>>55369479
>Greenbound Summonings
We are talking about standard 3.5e.

File: Hulk.jpg (39KB, 658x370px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 658x370px

>>55357953
>Cú Chulainn is known for his terrifying battle frenzy, or ríastrad[6] (translated by Thomas Kinsella as "warp spasm"[7] and by Ciaran Carson as "torque"),[8] in which he becomes an unrecognisable monster who knows neither friend nor foe

>>55369608
>Nor is it going to save them from a lv6 spell.
L6 Fireball damage on a failed save: 21
Black Bear HP post-Augment Summoning: 25

>>55369629
Oh, you were adding them together, my bad.

>>55369267
> slightly different numbers
Radically different numbers, that's why I was so suspicious.
Clearly if that anon and I were referring to two completeyl unrelated situation, there is no point.

>>55361581
I completely disagree. Ideawise it looks very promising they just didn't bother to playtest half of it.

>>55369652
The example is a 6th level druid, you have two feats to spare, right?

I tried to play that once, the GM was wise to not allow any of those feats, also natural spell.

>>55364346
>I know 5th edition did saves differently based on each attribute but fuck that clusterfuck.
Better than 2e's save tables vs specific effects.

>>55369590
Is he calming horses or casting spells?
Will calm animal allow the druid to stop the people screaming for the city guards?

Wow, druids sure can do a lot!

>>55369476
>I missed the point
A stronger unit is better than a weak one. You could like summon 22 wolves. Is wolves a good tank?

>The enemy Wizard using a fireball to try and,clear,them out is good, because it means that he was targetting the ultimately disposable animals and,dealing less overall damage to actual party members.
Except by the fact we are using the characters by themselves and you literally just lost your entire army and may even have gotten hurt in the process of tanking a single 3rd level spell.

>>55369608
>a dire wolf has low AC,
That's the point. Enemies are incentivized to attack it because they can actually hit it and their HP is high enough to prevent them from killing it.
>moderate BA
+13 to hit at level 5 and free tripping with a large bonus is not moderate.

>>55369610
I forget that druids have unlimited actions per turn.

>>55365978
How about arcane archer?
Alternately, a bow EK whose spells are all things that don't require Int does pretty well too.

>>55369643
>failed save
You seem to have missed the point that we are talking about things working. And frankly it's pretty unlikely that your bears will successfully evade it, except the animal companion.

>>55369679
Will the people not scream for guards if he doesn't summon the bears? Are they not afraid of a fighter in full armor+sword and shield going to town on someone?

Will the DM stop fucking over the druid just to prove a point, entirely missing another one in the process?

>>55369702
>My fighter can calm horses, people and guards
>No, your druid can't do that, you don't have that many actions
Well, then I just cast a spell to calm everybody

>>55369715
Yes.

That's why he says "failed save".

Because they didn't avoid it.

I'd think you are a troll but I actually saw people defending 3.5 like this.

>>55369715
>He doesn't understand what failed save means
It means the animal FAILED THE SAVE

>>55369701
>That's the point.
You just missed the point then, since I was replying that a fighter would quickly kill it.

>+13 to hit is not moderate
Compared with a lv6 crafted fighter it is.

>>55369719
No, this GM is somewhat fine with other people doing crazy shit, but a dog in a town? holy shit kill it, is an animal companion, civil unrest approaches druids!!

>>55369685
>entire army

3 bears. If they die, you can summon another 3 bears.

Meanwhile, the rest of the ground has taken an,easily survivable,amount of damage because the enemy Wizard was forced to use a Fireball ratger than polymorhing the Fighter into a frog or whatever.

And no, for 3.5, quantity becomes quality at a certain point, because summoning those 20 wolves means you suddenly have 20 extea attacks each turn, each with a chance to knock the person prone and make other attacks more likely to hit them. As well, it makes it harder for enemies to stand up, move, or get to attack you.

Yes, it's very vulnerable to Aoe, but the Fighter is vulnerable to single target, which a large crowd of summons makes less worthwhile. And of course, the Druid can,choose to summon Mir or less depensing on what you're fighting. The Fighter cant arbitrarily become more smaller Fighters if the situation demands.

>>55369752
>>55369757
Lv6 firebal is 6d6. That's 36 damage. Are you guys adding some bonus I didn't add?

>>55369775
Gets +6 from level, let's be generous, and +6 from stat, +1 from magic or masterwork sword, +1 from weapon focus.

Unless I'm mistaken, he has literally one higher attack bonus than the wolf.

>>55369775
>Average AC of monsters at CR8: 21 AC
+13 to hit means you hit with rolls 8+, I think is pretty fine. More if you take into account you have better chances to flank (more creatures) than a single fighter

>>55369807
>6d6. That's 36 damage.
It's actually 21 damage, unless you're adding some other bonuses or using abilities that maximize damage somehow.

>>55369807
>Lv6 firebal is 6d6. That's 36 damage

6d6 is an average of 21. 3.5*6.

>>55369775
>+2 magic weapon: 8000 gold
>level 6 WBL: 13000
6 BAB+5 STR(I'm being VERY generous here)+1 Weapon Focus+2 enhancement=+14. More realistically it will be +11 or +12 because you've probably got a +1 weapon and maybe a +2 STR belt.

>>55348030
There is no way youre actually retarded enough to believe 5E is less played than Pathfinder.

>>55369807
>Fireballs always roll max damage.

By that logic, the Fighter can only tank for maybe 3 encounters himself, since he'll take,18 damage on each successful save out of his 60 health.

The Druid loses a spellslot, the Fighter loses 1/3 of his daily resources. Which is more efficient to soak up a level 3 spell again?

>>55369807
>6x3.5 is now 36
The actual fuck?

>>55369837
>+2 magic weapon: 8000 gold
Actually is 8000 +300 (mk)+whateever the weapon costs normally

Also by rules you can't have more than 50% your WPL in a single item

>>55369802
Yes, if you are more moderate with summons you avoid getting them all taken out in a single turn. A fighter however can only go up front.

>Polymorph
It's a lv4 spell so no.

>And no, for 3.5, quantity becomes quality at a certain point, because summoning those 20 wolves means you suddenly have 20 extea attacks each turn
Which magical world you live that 20 wolves would suddenly occupy the same slot and attack at all the same time?

>The Fighter cant arbitrarily become more smaller Fighters if the situation demands.
Your druid doesn't become several bears. It summons bears. Your druid is still a single entity.

>>55369827
Dire wolf also gets to charge with impunity because their AC is already low, so it's more like +15 all the time. Level 6 Fighter actually gets screwed over for charging because full attacking is an objectively bad mechanic.

>>55366498
Summon mount + heighten spell + alter summoned monster gives you an expendable replacement for the Fighter, who often outperforms.

Add in Knock and you can replace the rogue's trap/lockpicking/scouting/dps as well.

And there are summons with healing as well. 4 Bralani azata, pump out an equivalent quadrupletted lightningbolt then 8 cure serious wounds for a 7th level slot, which is what normal cure mass costs.

A summoning wizard is a 1-man adventuring party.

>>55369866
That was my point. A Fighter only beats a dire wolf in attack bonus in scenarios that aren't supposed to happen.

>>55369638
Seems like a very shitty partymate.
>would not loot with

Are you guys really discussing if a fighter is more powerful than a druid? It's 2003 again?

>>55369832
>>55369835
>>55369837
>>55369843
>>55369850
Have any of you read the initial post? >>55369350

We are talking about max rolls. Otherwise I wouldn't have given max HP to every summoned unit (which as I said is impossible).

>>55366667
Force cage, a butt-ton of magic missle.
Where's my Benjamin, I'll send you a PayPal link?

>>55369874
Wolves can actually attack and move, because they don't need to stand still to full attack. So assuming same initiative, once they approached they can just rotate in-out.

>>55345616
Oh, hey, this just came in over the telegraph line, it says

STOP PLAYING D&D

>>55369837
I think you are missing how much time it takes to get lv6.

File: 1480476181979.png (176KB, 1586x1130px) Image search: [Google]

176KB, 1586x1130px

>>55369545
Oh hey, I can post this again.

>>55369874
My point is that the Druid has the option to either put all his eggs in one basket, or spread them out. The Fighter will only ever be a basket full of eggs. If the wizard decides to cast a Fireball, the wolves all die, but the party lives just fine. If the Druid buffs the Fighter instead, the Fighter is going to take a Save or suck spell to the face and spend the rest of the fight useless or worse.

Options are powerful

>>55369679
He can calm horses and cast spells, all the while being transformed in a crow.
Why would a druid stopping people from calling the guard? He's innocent.

>>55367321
>don't tell me you actually believe this, summoning looks excellent on paper but in actual fights it's unreliable as fuck
Objectively wrong, and repeatedly proven so.

>>55369901
You didn't give them max, you gave them average.

You only maxed the summon rolls.

>>55369927
I'm not missing anything. Treasure tables get you about 20% over listed WBL to compensate for randomness. Half of 15600 is less than 8000+the cost of the base weapon and masterworking it.

>>55369685
A group of wolves is a good tank because it allows ample battefield control throught saturation.

>>55369901
Cool. So the Fighter dies in 3 fights. Glad we established that.

Meanwhile, the Druid has lost nothing but spellslots.

>>55367586
>They literally are what helps you endure damage and avoid hits.
They aren't what keeps the enemy from just walking around you though.

Tank implies protection of the back line.

>>55369182
You had to build the castle, it was just the contents you got for free.

Other classes had similar but inferior features. Rogue got a thieves guild. Cleric got a parish. Fighter got a full army. The only one whose stronghold never attracted minions was wizard.

And yeah, faster levelling.

Grandmaster is covered by the aforementioned additional attacks.

>>55369874
Druid can become a bear and can have multiple bear companions so for the players prespective he is several bears.

>>55369963
>>55369951

File: thememesjack.png (425KB, 628x498px) Image search: [Google]

425KB, 628x498px

>wizard casts a spell
>rolls doubles
>has to now roll on perils of the warp

>>55369930
Seriously 95% of those are either divine heritage/assistance, people that cast spells, or people using magic weapons that performed said feat for them.

All you're telling me here is that we shouldn't have a class that is "mundane fighting man" at all, npc warrior should be the only instance of that and Fighter should be replaced with something named Hero that DOES get divine assistance, free magic weapons, and limited innate casting.