Is it a good or a bad thing that roleplaying games are becoming

There is no objective answer to this question. I'd lean toward thinking that it's a good thing since more people will be spending money on the hobby, thus ensuring that the companies that are creating content will continue being able to do so.

>>55341224
They aren't mainstream enough

Inb4 shrieking about NORMIES REEEEEEEEEE

Good if you're a well adjusted adult, bad if you're an autistic neckbeard that takes genuine pride in being a REEEE NORMIES REEEE piece of shit like most of 4chan.

>>55341295
>There is no objective answer to this question
You're right about that, but I disagree with your conclusion. Popularity in the mainstream will inevitably lead to designers basing their games on what appeals to the mainstream.

Now, you need to ask yourself: What appeals to the mainstream, and do I really want game designers to be focusing on those things?

>>55341328
this. i want to play d&d with some normal ass people and i'm struggling to find anything but mouth breathers.

>>55341224
I don't know. You tell me. How did other hobbys fare after the process of turning mainstream?

>>55341359
The argument there is that the thing that drew in the mainstream is what they want, which means design should stay the same if people want to appeal to their new audience. If anything it could lead to stagnation alla CoD: 4


I like it. More players who don't have hang ups and history with the games so things can still be surprising. WoD is more fun with people who haven't read every core book. Also attracts the kind of half-nerds half-normies who I get a long with so that's a bonus, you can actually go for drinks after a game.

>>55341224

Absolutely a good thing. More people involved means more potential players. No matter what your playstyle, the absolute number of potential people you have to play with will increase, even if the prominence of your preferred playstyle might shift with the change in demographics. It doesn't matter if you have a smaller slice as long as it's part of a bigger pie.

>>55341224
Oh shit I used to game regularly with lower-right in college, one of the best GMs I've ever been fortunate enough to play with.

>>55341359
If the mainstream starts liking RPGs, it means their tastes are changing, not that the games are.

Good thing. More potential players. Individual gaming groups are isolated enough that even if the "mainstream" becomes a cesspool, as long as you can find five or six people you like, you're all right. More players means more indie RPGs.

The only downside would be if the "mainstream" decides there's a Right way to play RPGs, and all other games are wrong, but Pathfinder mostly stays in its containment thread, so I think we'll live.

I'd say it's a bad thing for the majority of players as it can drive game creators to change their games to appeal to more mainstream audiences that do not appreciate the same things as more traditional players do

WHFB End Times

WoW classic vs Lich King vs current state

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>>55341224
I hate being surrounded by nothing but fat neckbeards with no hygiene whatsoever, so I say good. Whatever brings more normal people to my table.

>>55341467
this. I really want more people involved, but experiences has shown that it only leads to ruin the franchise

>>55341467

This sort of fearmongering only applies if you focus entirely on the highest profile games, and doing so is overly limiting IMO. It's like with vidya, I've had way more fun in recent years with indie titles. As RPGs get mainstream, sure the big ones might be crap, but they've always been crap. But more people interested means more indie designers, and while most of those will be crap enough people will be trying it for some good games to be created, by sheer chance if nothing else.

>>55341407
Video games are seeing an all time high, cinema's been alive and kicking for the past century, and books have been going strong since the 1600's despite the abundance of alternatives and constant cries that they are doomed by them. Seems fine.

>>55341224
At the risk of sounding somewhat elitist it all depends on whether the newcomers adapt to existing norms and regulations of play or if companies instead release new products which while being more easily accessible to newcomers aren't satisfying to veteran players of TTRPG's.

>>55341359
Just because we get some focus tested shit movies crapped out, doesn't mean we don't also get the good shit, that we wouldn't have gotten would movies not be as big an industry as they are.

Heck, after the LEGO movie, I don't even mind brand movies. Excellence can come from any source.

Heck, we are already kinda past the "everything is the same" with 2000s and the OGL anyway, it can't possibly get worse.

>>55341548
>cinema's been alive and kicking for the past century

Actually, movie theaters are closing rapidly, since besides obvious blockbusters, nobody wants to go out and pay 10 bucks for hollywood trash when Netflix and similar services are a thing.

>>55341224
It's a bad thing that you keep making threads with pictures of ""problematic"" people just so faggots can whine about MUH TUMBLR and MUH X-CARDS.

Pretty sure OP doesn't actually have any friends to play RPGs with.

>>55341557
If you don't like the stuff that is being made, then make your own. The good thing with TTRPG is that you don't have to learn to code or buy expensive cameras or take costly classes. Just get to work and test.

>>55341548
>Video games are seeing an all time high
In what way

>>55341631
Cinema as a medium, not as a place.

>>55341650
Commercial. I know everyone's butthurt that the industry's moved to mostly making microtransaction based phone games and the occasional CoD clone but the only objective measurement you have is the bottom line. Everything else is people just not liking whatever the flavor of the month is. And bottom line, things are going better.

>>55341650
More productions than ever and an ever-flourishing indie market that makes it pretty much impossible not to find a game you like even if you don't like the mainstream tendencies.

>>55341697
>>55341730

The games industry is only shit if you look at AAA stuff. Which, admittedly, is really fucking shitty, especially with them actively ruining interesting looking games like Shadow of War with bullshit microtransactions.

Still, there's a lot of good indies out there. You just need to find them.

>>55341224
you'd have to be some real pretentious hipster douchebag to think that is anything but great.
If you don't enjoy a more mainstream appealing game, then play it how you want it. nobody is making you do anything.
big newsflash, that is the point of pen and paper RPGs.

>>55341435
>If the mainstream starts liking RPGs, it means their tastes are changing, not that the games are.
Then why was Skyrim so absolutely beautiful in graphics, but terrible in design?

The mainstream likes whatever is pretty and popular, nothimg more. This was true in the past, it's true in the present, and it will be true in the future.

>>55341224
It's good for the hobby as a whole if things become mainstream, but bad for an idnividual game if that individual game becomes mainstream.

>>55341822
skyrim existing doesn't take away games you like.
if your audience isn't big enough to warrant being pandered to, then the mainstream not being part of that audience wont make a difference at all.
In that case your choice is: Skyrim or nothing?

>>55342070
>skyrim existing doesn't take away games you like
Never claimed it did. My argument was solely against >>55341295's argument that more people spending money on the hobby is always a good thing without considering that the companies producing the hobby will inevitably start to pander to the mainstream, favoring style over substance, in the nature of Skyrim as opposed to Daggerfall, which came out before the genre got popular.

I happen to view this as bad. If you don't, well, I guess you're the guy spending his money, so who am I to tell you boo? They've got yours, but they're losing mine.

>>55342174
I also forgot to add that I was also arguing against >>55341435's argument that "If the mainstream starts liking RPGs, it means their tastes are changing, not that the games are" by pointing out Skyrim, a clear case of the games changing to meet the tastes of the mainstream as opposed to the mainstream's tastes changing.

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>>55341619
>the LEGO movie
>good
Heh.
>Heck, we are already kinda past the "everything is the same" with 2000s and the OGL anyway, it can't possibly get worse.
Sure. Now instead of OGL, you have DM's guild, where you create content and Wizards of the Coast sells it for money, which you do not see a single penny of. Because they made the system that enabled your creativity, and you should suck their dick and buy more of their fifty dollar adventure books and ten dollar slips of cardboard.

>>55341467
D&D 5e
The newer Magic sets (anything after Innistrad has been normalfuck pandering)
>>55341548
Video games sell well but in terms of quality they are trash. Movie theaters are dying, worst box office weekend in 25 years was like a week ago. Books are being replaced by shitty kindles and retarded meme books that convey nothing of value.

Try again.

>>55342174
Daggerfall would not come out today even if the mainstream never so much as looked in the general direction of RPGs.
Instead of Skyrim you'd have nothing.
>But there is game xyz which i like
And yeah, that still exists now, no?
"Their" audience being smaller doesn't make "Yours" bigger, and vice versa, if that makes sense.

>>55342407
>Video games sell well but in terms of quality they are trash. Movie theaters are dying, worst box office weekend in 25 years was like a week ago. Books are being replaced by shitty kindles and retarded meme books that convey nothing of value.

So, your personal taste, a logical fallacy and more of your personal taste. I'm not trying again before you try at all. :^)

>>55342473
The false premise here is that Daggerfall is good.
I mean, it's a pretty clever argument, since you're not going with the standard argument of Morrowind being the best, but it still means that you're claiming that what was basically a roguelike with shitty 3d graphics and uninteresting mechanics that crashed every twenty minutes and had no plot is somehow the 'purest' form of the genre.

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>>55342521
>The false premise here is that Daggerfall is good

>>55341295
>There is no objective answer to this question.

>>55341359
>You're right about that

>>55341224
Magfest?

>>55342496
Movie theaters are actually dying though and this has been a general trend for years. Don't ask for sauce, this is fucking common knowledge now and if you don't know it it's your own fault.

>>55341295
>since more people will be spending money on the hobby
You meant to say, "since more people will be spending money on D&D and its derivatives," since the small publishers and indie developers sure as shit aren't going to see much boost thanks to Big Bazinga Theory or shit like Critical Roll.

>>55341224
Yes.
It introduces a lot of garbage players to the mix, but let's admit it, the playerbase was already full of garbage. The only difference now is that there's more junk to sort through to find good players. Systems might be getting more "casual" but I don't really care. I vastly prefer tearing systems apart to modify them or just making my own. If I don't like something that a new edition does I'll change it or use a different one. If other players only want to play garbage I'll find new players, there's plenty of them out there if you live in a city.

>>55341467
Warhammer and WoW were never good.

>>55341359
>because certain designers appeal to the mainstream all designers will
ok

>>55341224
>fat dude sitting directly across from girl
>side shaved angry girl
>girl who looks very uncomfortable
>balding little man
>guy with gene mist poof hair

>>55343598
I'm sick of normies like that ruining my games for weirdos and outsiders.

>>55342571
99% certain that's MEPACon. The wallpaper and the tables are dead on.

>>55342521
indeed
though morrowind is best

>>55341822
>Then why was Skyrim so absolutely beautiful in graphics, but terrible in design?
Videogamers have been swallowing shitty games for the sake of graphical improvement long before Skyrim though.

>>55341822
>Then why was Skyrim so absolutely beautiful in graphics, but terrible in design?
Because console kiddies can't handle proper UIs and everything the base game could do needed to be able to fit into half a gig of ram because of said consoles.

Most of /tg/ is literally okay with being colonized. Every hobby ever has had issues with normalization and, sure, all survived but the state of those hobbies certainly took hits to quality.

Civilian firearms are very similar to /tg/'s interests in the way it's produced and consumed; individually and small groups, used weekly to monthly, expensive, designed with little market testing, etc. The gun hobby, because of its new mass market appeal, has shaped gun stores and culture for the next 20 years.
>Every range almost exclusively sells AR15 and Glock parts and accessories.
>Training courses are filled with modern fuddlore.
>Awful tshirts everywhere.
>Gun designs stagnated and are built around compatibility and user idiocy.
>Even unique designs are normie appeal type affairs that evoke a specific aesthetic in both the exterior and mechanics of the gun.

Normies ruin everything, but now we have gun right groups growing, so yeah. /tg/ gains NOTHING from mass appeal.

>>55341830
I like this answer.

>>55344216
Interesting. I'm a gun enthusiast and play board games and ttRPGs and I feel the last decade has been better than it ever has before. More variety for people getting into it, and plenty of people producing tried and true designs for the older guys.

>>55341224
Its....ok. I think some aspects of it are good, like more people playing can never hurt. However, I think some of the shit that people use as paragons of the hobby are terrible, and normies dont know not to follow their lead. Id go so far as to say unambiguously that Critical Role is the worst thing to come of mainstream nerd-dom.

>>55344414
It's """variety"""

>Do you want your blowback semi auto Stoner rifle to be 300 or .223 sir?

At the end of the day though, we still have the same guns and you don't need to participate in 3 gun and go to ranges so you can ignore a lot of the new culture. I forgot to say that in my original post.

Good thing. There is no argument otherwise

>>55341224
I'm fine with normies as long as they eventually dive deeper into the hobby than 5E, the problem I have is that normies seem to stay at the surface level and don't really develop an understanding of the hobby

>>55344678
Yeah, I'm of this mindset too. Introducing people to D&D is easier now than it ever was, coming from a 16 year vet. At least for my generation we're in that place where we've graduated and got good jobs, but haven't yet got kids so we have lots of time and money and are looking for social things to do.

It's true that I don't want to play with every person who's interested, but as a social hobby (and especially as a DM) you get to choose who you associate with and how you run your games.

>>55344467
I'm really of two minds about Critical Role. I worry that the high production quality of it is misleading for newbies. I've been teaching some new players myself and they didn't realize that those players are literally professional voice actors and hosts. Unsurprisingly the game you have at your friend's kitchen table will be different than the one run by professionals in a studio.

At the same time, I love the exposure and how easy it makes for me to find new players and introduce them to D&D.

Overall, the posters in this thread seem concerned with the notion that game designers will target a "mainstream" audience at the expense of current hobbyists. The thread contains many comparisons to other media. I think it's probably best to consider these in terms of the cost of production in each market, because if the cost of production is low, you can make a profit by targeting a non-mainstream audience. Movies have a high cost of production, as do AAA video games or television shows, so it makes some degree of sense to complain about "casualization" in those cases. Books and music technically have a very low cost of production, but their respective industries are operating on thin margins and are consequently very risk-averse. Roleplaying games seem like the least causalizable case possible: they don't go obsolete, the creators can't control how they're played, they're relatively cheap to make, and the fans are pretty heavily invested in the hobby. So I don't see why you have anything to worry about: you can always make money selling GURPS to GURPS fans.

>>55341224
I think it's good overall.

>>55342727
Looking at how many indie devs are taking off right now, I'd say you're dead wrong. Everyone and their mother is making a game and selling it through kickstarter/Patreon. It's like the SRD days, except people aren't forcing d20 to do properties it was never designed for; now it's a number of different narrative systems (Fate, PbtA, etc) trying to recreate emotional spaces.

>>55341224
Roleplaying games are fun, and I hope more people start to play them.

>>55344678
My initial impression was to disagree with you, as I have seen several games I enjoy decrease in quality as a result of their desire to pander to the large normie audience getting into their game and have left their more die hard fans in a position where they need to ignore the developments made for that purpose, examples that come to mind are Elder Scrolls, which made Skyrim a much more simple RPG than its predecessors. Or MTG, which has increasingly pandered towards its casual audience during the last 5 or so years.

With TTRPG's however, the content is only a template, and, while it might be improved if it were balanced; playing 1000 hours of pathfinder doesn't get old in the same way that playing 1000 hours of morrowind does. You can just let the next player GM with their new story, and you can even invent homebrew rules. Furthermore, because of the ease of publishing a rules system, and the large amount of free rules systems, if one doesn't feel incentivized by money in the first place to make their game, the fact that there is a potential for a more lucrative product by making it more simple for the 'normies' sake, won't in every case change their mind.

All this is to say, I think that often times it is bad when normies get into a hobby and ask the hobby to meet them half way (ie when normies bring the hobby to a lowest common denominator), however, in the case of TTRPG's, while this might still occur in some instances, the effect is greatly mitigated by the fact that the 'content' of an rpg is typically the rules which can be filled with whatever other content a group wants, and it is the latter type of content which a group will often get sick of if they are playing a system they enjoy, not the system it's self.

>>55345064
Bit of a tangent, but got the gist of the changes to MTG by any chance? Fell out of the loop around Zendikar or so.

Old School Gaming

>Played games with only weird dudes as a kid
>Treated like lepers by popular kids
>Parents treated the game as a 'weird phase', averted their eyes and struggled to politely endure any mention of the game
>Couldn't bring it up at family gatherings because a couple of Aunts and Uncles were convinced Dungeons and Dragons made you worship the devil
>"If DnD gave me sweet devil powers do you think I would be this unpopular?"
>9/10 tabletop games were poorly written, barely cohesive things written on graph paper

Now

>Actual girls who have fun with the games and get into it as much as me, married one
>Can talk about it openly, 'the episode where the characters play DnD' is a pretty common tv episode played for laughs but also showing how fun tabletop is, people are mostly curious when they find out I play
>Actual money and writing goes into games, they get playtested, get funded
>Staggering amount of good games today

I'm always amazed when people are all 'Weh, I wish gaming wasn't so mainstream Weh! I wish all movies were still filmed on celophane in black and white!'

>>55345353
It's a variant of the sour grapes problem. Many of the weirder nerds in the hobby are terrified of the thought of being confronted by normies playing because their whole lives they've been (consciously or not) telling themselves that being outsiders was the "price" they paid for getting so good at it. It absolves them of true responsibility for being weirdoes because it postulates that if they'd only, say, picked up basketballs instead, they'd be swimming in pussy like Chad, but they made the "choice" to dedicate themselves to memorizing the entirety Werewolf: the Apocalypse game line instead.

If players suddenly entered the hobby who also had social lives and looked normal, it'd be a constant living proof that it's possible to be in the hobby and be normal, which would mean that the weirdoes could no longer blame it for their misery.

LITERALLY only upsides. If you don't like what is coming out, you can just continue to play systems that you have always played. However with more mainstream exposure, people can now actually sustain financial backing for new stuff.

>>55341224
I feel like I should be screeching about normies or something but I don't really care either way.

A problem everybody ignores is that "mainstream success" isn't translating into sales while more and more people who haven't brought a single item ever continue to take up more and more resources at your LGS.

So the upsides are only really there for podcasts and youtube channels, for everybody else It's time to make redundancies, again, for the 4th year running.

Can we stop with the meme that mainstream society is healthy or normal?

I consider "normal" people to be straight-talking, able to take a joke, forgive mistakes and try to fit in within a social group rather than divide it.

The move to attract new players has instead brought thin-skinned humorless types who see any perceived offence as unforgivable and actively try to disrupt and divide established social groups.

So let's stop normalizing that behaviour.

>>55349457
You would think more people on /tg/ would remember what happened to White Wolf when they hit the mainstream.

It's bad initially but once the filthy casuals leave it will end up creating more fans and replenishing the depleted ranks of the last boom in the early 1980s.

>>55341771
When AAA was the only option people lapped that garbage up because it was the only shit out there.

Video games are objectively better now than they ever were, and the only difference is an aging audience that has seen a lot of things, just like when an aging audience calls all movies shit because they start picking apart the things they have seen before. Just like your dad still insists everything in the 80s was better when they were not.

>>55349457
>The move to attract new players has instead brought thin-skinned humorless types who see any perceived offence as unforgivable and actively try to disrupt and divide established social groups.
So, /tg/?

>>55343598
at least they're all white amirite?

>>55341352
Normies are good for you, they can help you become a normie too. You can find a tabletop girlfriend, lifting buffy that plays magic with you friday dungeon crawl nights can turn into pub crawls.

It has pros and cons like literally every other niche, genre, and hobby.

>>55344842
This is a point nobody here hit on before and i'd like to add my 2 Cents:
TTRPGs have such a wide range of money you can spend on it, but all things considered are very good value for the time you spend with them.
You can get started without any monetary investment, be it by using free games or pirating, but even if you buy your games you have an initial investment of maybe 50-100$ to entertain 4+ people many hours a week for a pretty long time.
Even if you where only to play a short campaign and never touched these books again you are at only at dimes per person per hour of entertainment.
(But of course the potential for spending way, way more is there as well: Additional Books, Modules, Miniatures, Dice, etc... You could get started with the change in your pocket but could burn your whole paycheck, too)

>>55350597
Actually I'd say It's the exact opposite, there's almost nothing to spend money on for the average person; who are often fervently against anything that resembles a video game, they exclusively want to play in the mind's eye, no miniatures, tokens, maps, etc

>>55344842
You've got it backwards, roleplaying games are relatively expensive to make compared to video games who often make back their investment on the first day of release, splats often never make their investment back. The only reason why rpg's are commercially viable is because the entire industry consists of <30 people who are underpaid, overworked and often work for free at home.

>>55345064

>I have seen several games I enjoy decrease in quality as a result of their desire to pander to the large normie audience

That's the fault of companies revealing that they don't care about their product. Increased popularity has nothing to do with it, only greed.

>>55349457
Fucking, this.

>>55350721
Video games crash and burn extremely frequently, closing entire development teams that get bought out and folded into others. Same with most of the nuts and bolts work of movies.

RPGs don't make money because they have a small audience representing single digit millions of a billion dollar industry. Board games are much more expensive to produce but people are willing to pay a lot of money for a complete boxed thing with plastic crap, and wargames amp that willingness to buy up to 10,000.

Meanwhile the RPG market wants free or close to free, meaning the money is made in licensing to other mediums or through subscription products. It's why D&D beyond exists, roll20 exists, etc.

Everything goes to shit after it becomes mainstream, but p'n'p RPGs are ralativley easy to make on your own(compared to vidya or movies) and you can still enjoy them, even if you are the author.

>>55350748
Funny he used GURPs as a example because SJG are very close to discontinuing the entire product line after the failure of Discworld and Mars Attacks.

>>55341224
>Is it a good or a bad thing that roleplaying games are becoming more mainstream?
They're not.

They've just started drawing in emos, SJWs and other social rejects aside from basement-dwelling neckbeards.

The customer base is growing, but 'normies' still aren't a meaningful part of it.

>>55341224
It depends. Do you like the majority of people who walk this earth? Then you will like that it becomes more mainstream.
Do you despise the majority of people who walk this earth like I do. Then it's bad.

It's just math.

>>55350888
>They've just started drawing in emos, SJWs and other social rejects aside from basement-dwelling neckbeards.

I think World of Darkness already existed.

>>55350721
It's debatable which side is less likely to make its investment back, and that TRPG investment is a couple thousand dollars counting one's own time for a shitty splat up through perhaps a few million dollars for a new edition of a major system, while for vidya the absolute bottom is tens of thousands (remember, your job prospects as a programmer beat the shit out of your job prospects as a writer who isn't doing actual plots) to several hundred million for an FF or GTA.

How many splats bomb out without it stopping the flow is proof of this if anything, even individuals can afford a couple duds.

>>55349457
This.
People don't realize, the 5% bitter Nerds are the good and well adjusted people now.
World has gone insane.

>>55349700
I wish new movies would be more like the once in the 80s, sadly they are not. They are heartless moving pictures made out of poop.

>>55350661
While I share this sentiment for theater-of-the-mind play, on what basis do you assert that it's the most common?

>>55341224
That's always more people to play with.
Just boot the bad players and keep the best

>>55350661
I don't know, theres quite a few ways to spend your money, even w/o miniatures.
A second rule book is in my opinion almost a must-have, and in my experience theres always somebody who likes the game enough to buy a few splat books or other supplements.
And of course new systems are always a draw, too

>>55345303
A lot of the same problems are still around like OP and/or useless mythics, and too many planeswalkers. Development is being shitier than normal, Kaladesh had an extremely obvious combo slip through the cracks and warp the format, and they recently announced a day 1 errata for a card because it could go infinite by itself.

Lore is the same as it was in Zendikar, the main problem is still that most of their writers are crap.

Design is trying to be more "inclusive" which is honestly not as big a problem as /tg/ makes it out to be. Also designing sets 2 years in advance has come back to bite them in the ass as they are only just now changing course after it became clear people didn't like the Gatewatch being shoved into every set.

On the bright side there's a new Un set announced and we're going back to Dominara this year.

It isn't bad thing per se, but the bad thing is that it's through D&D mainly, and while becoming more widespread, it still mostly panders to certain social groups that are repulsive to other people, thus limiting potential growth towards new teritorries.

I wish some day RPGs will stop being associated with loosers dungeoncrawling with minis on grid map, and will become games of story and imagination for everyone, but it isn't going to happen.

>>55352651
>I wish some day RPGs will stop being associated with loosers dungeoncrawling with minis on grid map, and will become games of story and imagination for everyone, but it isn't going to happen.
Are you posting this from from 2010?

Look at what happens to series.

GoT season 1 was good, in season 2 they tried to appeal to a broader audience and it was a big drop in quality yet it was still decent. Season 3 to now (I assume, because I dropped that shit mid S3) became a plebfest of epic proportions, something in the big bang theory tier or the walking dead level of plebness.

This is what happens when something starts to become successful, companies try to broaden the market and by doing so they start pandering to the biggest casuals, AKA normies.

>>55341224
It's not popularity that ruins things it's over commercialisation. Thanks, capitalism

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>>55342407
The LEGO Movie was great.

>>55341224

A few people watching Big Bang Theory and deciding to look at D&D briefly doesnt make it anymore mainstream than a bunch of housewives buying the Wii for Wii sports and forgetting about it after a week

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How has nobody posted this yet?

>>55342496
Physical Book and DVD sales have bounced back despite Kindles existing and Netflix cutting back on their library for original content

>>55353588
No one posted it because that pic is retarded and so is anyone who posts it

https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

>>55341379
Normal people don't play games.

>>55341771
>The games industry is only shit if you look at AAA stuff

There are also a few AAA gems every year. The majority are mediocre sure, but that seems to be a rule for every medium.

>>55353588
The major problem i have with that argument is that all the shit it predicts happening to the hobby could be completed averted if the original players stand their ground. Since you'd never want/ask the new guys to DM, and you can't play most roleplaying games without a DM, the whole thing kinda falls apart.

Oh look, it's this thread again.

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forgot pic

More mainstream? The golden age of pen&paper is long over. I remember the 80s and 90s when role playing games were mainstream.

>>55353630
Not an argument

>>55341295

More popular is objectively good in this case. It may bring changes you don't like, but ultimately it makes it more accessible, cheaper, and also allows new independent developers to make games without as much risk.

>>55341224
>good things
Easier to find players.
Easier to introduce friends to the game (unless they're anti mainstream hipsters)
Producers will earn more money unless a bunch of new producers arrive on the market.
More games will be produced -> more variety.

>bad things
Some producers will push out a low effort game to make quick profit.
Other producers will be afraid of trying anything new once they get an established system up and running.

>>55354395
What do you want, a cookie?

>>55354973
Not an argument

I'm torn. On one hand, women are game-ruining parasites. On the other hand, more competition for attention would drive the worst of them off, ironically enough

>>55350721
Well... if fans of roleplaying games don't buy the fucking books, then where the hell do they get off complaining about normies who do?

I doubt the hobby would have survived this long if the situation was that dire.

>>55355112
So you are a underage retard?

>>55354395
The "Degredation[sic] of a Fanbase/Hobby" cartoon isn't an argument either. It provides no supporting evidence; it's just an assertion.

>>55341356
What if I don't really dislike normalfags but they tend to dislike me and I'm afraid of being displaced by the "gentrification" of the hobby? (see https://status451.com/2016/09/15/social-gentrification/ as an example)

>>55341224
Both.
Becoming more mainstream means adding more good and bad players, more good and bad designers. More of everything generally.

>>55341548
While that's true. It's hard to say that a lot of popular activities are good.
Romance novels sell millions and millions of copies, that doesn't mean the content is good.

>>55341224
Hard to say.
The feeling I have is that it would be finally great to play a game with some normies and teach them the wonders of imagination land than the autistic bunch of losers I usually play with. But the problem I see is that if the games are going to be mainstream, I think almost everything is going to end up like 3.5 and Pathfinder, stuff that was good at first and then overbloated into bullshit to the point where they would even sell shit like Starfinder, the fucking game only tested in their echochamber.

>>55341352
Are normies even real?

According to my experience, even the most normal seeming people have wierd baggage, gross fetishes aqnd odd insecurities. I’d say becoming normie is like accelerating to lightspeed. You can get very close if yopu invest a lot of energy, but never reach it

>>55355372

>PF was good

kek

>>55341224
Honestly it depends on how the "quality" of the new audience.
The majority of a mainstream audience is generally very casual and shallow and I am not convinced a large fraction of it would be willing to play more "seriously" like what happened with videogames.
It's likely to change nothing but a too quick interest not well integrated with the preexisting culture could drown the hobby with gimmicky games for actual hipsters.

>>55355385
There are normies. They're almost abnormal though, in how close to the norm they are.

>>55341224
I mean, It's good on the whole I think.

The more mainstream it becomes the more chance I have of seeing new and interesting things and/or playing with normal people.

however "this" is always a worry.
>>55354460
>>bad things
>Some producers will push out a low effort game to make quick profit.
>Other producers will be afraid of trying anything new once they get an established system up and running.
like the jump from morrowind to skyrim.
or Knights of the Old Republic to that MMO thing they made.

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>>55341224
Yes? This hobby has been too long left fat and decayed with subhuman wastrels with no social skills, little imagination, and barely anything fun to offer. 'Normies' with jobs and families play the fucking game good and with devotion for the little time they have to spare on a hobby, unlike basement chunklords looping through game after game after game after game after game NEVER GOING ANYWHERE.

Meanwhile my normie group is 5 years running and about to wrap our grand finale.

>>55355436
I think The Adventure Zone is the perfect example of the good and the bad to the new attention of hobby is getting lately.

My friends who know me as "The D&D guy" but have never in years of knowing them expressed an interest in D&D hit me up for a game this year because they've all been going crazy for this show. I don't know exactly how these guys run their game, but the problem very quickly ended up being that it was nothing like how I wanted to run the game. I HATE being the "no fun" guy who shoots down ideas, and in ten years of GMing I've never had to be that guy, but there was this constant consistence on bending the rules for how spells work to "wacky" effect from the players that I never had to deal with before, even with players who like to get creative with the rules.

That's nothing to mention the tonal disconnect. I don't mind jokes, but something had given these guys the impression that the game was improv comedy hour, every second of the session. I couldn't get a word out from an NPC without someone openly mocking the character or trying to torment them or making puns or some shit.

>>55355436
Fuck the McElroys

>The name Taco and Chalupa ultimately ended up really problematic for us and we have been working with members of the latinex

That behind the curtain qa podcast combined with the nonsensical rules change and the wackadoo flashback horseshit made me drop it like a sack of bricks right there even if I should've seen the signs earlier.

>>55355761
But you did listen up until that point.

>>55341224
The way I see it: the more folks who jump aboard, the more money the hobby will have and the more incentive companies will have to make more material.

Let's look at VTTs. Today, there's about a handful of options. Off the top of my head there is Roll20, MapTool, Tabletop Simulator and Fantasy Grounds. If the hobby is more popular, then that means that more VTT options will eventually come out to meet the demand for niche features and systems. Perhaps the developers of Shadowrun or GURPS see the potential of developing a feature-packed VTT for their system, simply because there is more interest.

>>55355815
Yes, I did. Things were taking a strong nosedive as I alluded to before, as the story format was easily digestible and fun to listen to, but it got so bogged down with tonal shifts and dumbassed threading, the worst sort of stuck-in-an-echo-chamber-with-your-blogger-fanbase pandering and emphasis on all the wrong things, it just became messier and messier and at that sixty episode mark I realized it had become a boorish slog, and it wasn't gonna go back. And I took a step back and I realized there was a fuckton of people regularly listening to this that wanted to play games like this with this mentality. I have had a very bitter and negative reaction in the meantime as you might have surmised.

>>55355983
It's ok, Anon. I think a lot of people had the same reaction.

>>55350860

Sure?

>>55355584

This. People who bitch about 'normies' are just shitheads who don't want to realize that 'normies' are 100% better than them.

>>55355637
Even though the Matt Mercer copypasta is trollish and completely exagerated this part is 100% true:

>Mercer has made the game palatable to (...) The kind of moron who thinks mirthful laughter is the end goal of everything, and fails to understand the potential that RPGs have as a fulfilling hobby. Instead, he shits on that creative potential by turning the entire game into a joke, refusing to take anything seriously and making gimmick characters (...) because the game doesn't matter to these people at all. It is a mode of entertainment, nothing else. And by entertainment, I mean they consider it nothing more than a Netflix special that they can pause at any time, because it is meant entirely to pander to their enjoyment and make them laugh to cover up how empty their soulless lives are.

>>55355637
I have no idea how they run their game either, never having listened to the podcast, but you're not a good GM.

The point of gaming is for everyone to have fun. If the group wants to run wacky shenanigans beach episode harem anime games, then you should either try it their way or, if you know it's not going to be fun for you, own up to that and ask if they're up for something more serious.

I know talking to people is anathema for a lot of channers, but nut the fuck up.

>>55356079
Holy fuck, the guy is literally getting angry people are having bad wrong fun.

ITT : "Normalfags" circlejerk

>>55356092
If he related a story where he did exactly that, you'd be berating him for trying to steer the group towards his own selfish brand of fun. Don't deny it because you're in every That Guy thread doing the exact same shit and you don't know how to stop. How about you nut up and kick the habit? Plenty of people can relate to their only feasible game group being full of memers and being unable to successfully and friendily steer things in a direction other than memetown.

>>55356116
No. It is because that breed of retard didn't exist at tables, now it is everywhere and you have to weed them out.

Before you had to weed out the fatties, the ones with bad hygiene and the creeps now it is this kind of retard too. They probably are half of the people I kick from my table.

>>55356079
From everything I've seen Mercer is the only person from critical roll who also plays in his off-time and his offline games are the exact opposite of what you see from his online stuff, everything is ultra-serious, RAW and a zero tolerance to people trolling.

>>55345353
>Old School Gaming
It's because you were (and still are) an unhygienic freakshow, not because the hobby was awful.

>>55356092
>but you're not a good GM.
You know what, no. I'm actually not going to take that one. It's a dickish thing to say, but I'm a good GM and they were bad players. I'm the one who's been doing this for well over a decade, and they're the ones who refused to meet me anywhere close to halfway, at any turn. They're good people, but they absolutely weren't good players and that had nothing to do with me.

I am not a bad GM for point out that the rules say "Disguise Self" lets you look one foot smaller or taller than yourself, and can't be used to trick people into thinking you're a full-sized dragon. There's other spells, at higher levels, that do that. No amount of "aww, c'mon anon! It's a good plan" are going to make a first level spell turn into Major Image. You can't pull down a tree with mage hand. That's the antics I was dealing with, and my attempts to explain that these were the rules in the book were met with a reaction like I was being some bully.

I honestly don't have problems with the jokey bullshit, I adjusted to that quickly, but there was a complete lack of care for the structure of the game that I can't be held accountable for at the table.

>>55356074
Yeah. They're not even 'normies', they're just functional people with a living and some fucking social skills! It's not goddamn hard, and I got nothing but rolled eyes for the goblins hiding in their caves screaming into the internet about their hobby being taken away, when they never even play or run games, and it doesn't even affect them directly since they're still locked in their rooms or local dying game store.

>>55348197
How is that their fault for looking bad?

>>55356249
He's apparently married now so he's less of an unhygenic freakshow than you.

>>55356079
Joke characters and campaigns have been a large part of tabletop gaming long, long before Matthew Mercer.

>>55356238
I have no idea how what he does in his personal life has to do with anything.

>>55356299
Because "looking bad" was maybe 10% of why they were rejected. If you don't bathe, don't have any respect for others when you speak, don't have any respect for boundaries when you act, don't bother to listen to other people or take any interest in their lives, that's why you're socially ostracized. It's not just "the price" of playing a pen and paper game.

>>55356387
I've been playing RPGs since 5th grade and managed to be perfectly hygienic, social, and nominally happy. It's a hobby. There is no price. Nerds fucking loathe themselves and it reflects in their self-destruction, hidden behind angry posts and bad games.

>>55356288
>I am not a bad GM for point out that the rules say "Disguise Self" lets you look one foot smaller or taller than yourself, and can't be used to trick people into thinking you're a full-sized dragon. There's other spells, at higher levels, that do that. No amount of "aww, c'mon anon! It's a good plan" are going to make a first level spell turn into Major Image.
Jesus christ. You have my sympathies, I ran for a group like this once and we eventually just had to give up and go back to video games because it was an endless stream of "let us break this rule, just this once! It would be COOL!"

I'd honestly rather hang out with the normies than you fucks. You guys are all assholes nowadays.

It's never a good thing.
If you want to see what happens to something when it goes mainstream just spend 10 minutes in /v/

>>55356693
This is where I see it's best to compromise. Mage Hand to tear down a tree? No. Mage Hand to tear down a tree by working with the others to use Mage Hand as part of a pully system the others design and work up to be used to pull down the tree? Absolutely.

Disguise Self for a dragon? No! Disguise self for the HEAD ONLY of a dragon, looking rather poor and sloppy, needing extra work from the party to make convincing, and only stuck in one doorway since it's just a head with them behind it? Yes!

You have to force these pricks to be CREATIVE, not just imaginative.

>>55356770
Also yeah this. TG has become such an unfun hellhole. I hardly post here anymore, it's sad.

>>55356778
It makes underage retards whine not stop?

>>55356782
>has become
Newfriends are so funny, if you think nu-/tg/ is bad you wouldn't have survived old-/tg/.

>>55356782
>unfun
"The Tyranny of Fun" has been the biggest blight on our hobby for decades. Look it up. There's more to having a fulfilling time with a hobby than instant gratification.

>>55356835
I've been passing through since 4chan was created because I was on Something Awful when Moot left ADTRW to make this pile of fuck. No man, there was nothing to survive but some giggly idiots who were much more relaxed than the left over burnouts who rage here now.

>>55356288
"You know why you never hear the DM on Adventure Zone or whatever say "No you cant" and then explain rules to his players? They cut that shit out in editing. But I promise it happens just like it does here."

Try this for anybody having that "downer" moment.

>>55356868
I don't doubt you senpai, but would you kindly fuck off back to rpg.net already?

>>55341224
This question cannot be answered in a respectable manner in 4chan format. Thank you.
>drops mic

>>55356926
Sorry to have tickled your sore spot, pal. The glory days are long gone. Time to move on, and thank Christ it can happen with more/fresh/better people finally coming into this hobby

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>>55356868
>>55356972
Include cringe warning in your posts next time, my sides weren't ready for this.

>>55356939
yeah kinda

it's sad because it's clear there are plenty of smart people who'd love to use the anon format to discuss a lot of things here, but 4chan is 'lols' and '/pol/' and 'not for normies' so every fucktard unfunny malcontent here has an angry chip on his little shoulder for every single fucking topic, and it's boring as hell

>>55357006
see god don't you EVER get tired of this, can we just talk about the state of games without your slimy ego getting sprayed over every single post

>>55356835

Shut the fuck up newfag.

>>55357006

Leave, /a/nimal.

>>55357006
Cringe really became a buzzword.

>>55357018

Says you, Mr "My 4chan experience spans DECADES"

>>55341224
More players is always good, game companies trying to make shittier, but easier to understand games to attract a bigger market is not good.

Still net positive though.

Eh, I don't see it.
The only thing that is different is that there isn't some event going on to create some manner of backlash against gaming as a hobby, such as the Satan Panic or Columbine.
Just because there are a few tv shows that casually (and stereotypically) feature ttrpgs, and devs that are designing according to the current societal mood doesn't make the hobby "mainstream", it makes it a hobby that has some (admittedly poor) press.

>>55341431
I've never gotten the chance to actually play any WoD, have read pretty much all the books they ever published because I enjoy the rollercoaster of quality. Is being somewhat familiar with all the source material really that bad?

Bad.

Casualization of the hobby makes products worse, and while there's more products, most of them aren't worth a damn.

>>55341379
t. mouth breather

>>55356198
lol I don't have time for That Guy fantasies. I've got two games to run.

>>55356288
>I am not a bad GM for point out that the rules say "Disguise Self" lets you look one foot smaller or taller than yourself, and can't be used to trick people into thinking you're a full-sized dragon.
Does it negatively impact the game if they pull it off and make someone seem to be a dragon? Is the game somehow "less" for their fun?

>>my attempts to explain that these were the rules in the book were met with a reaction like I was being some bully.
Yeah you failed to establish expectations before sitting down to game with them. You were the only one not having fun, and the one who owned the ball. You proceeded to take your ball home when you didn't get your way. That makes you the bully.

I recommend you learn from this. And next time? Maybe not D&D.

>>55357945
>Casualization
that already happened with the rules-light movement

>>55356442
>Nerds fucking loathe themselves and it reflects in their self-destruction, hidden behind angry posts and bad games.
nerds don't understand one thing: they're contributing to giving the group they have chosen to associate with a bad rep by perpetuating those stereotypes for the sake of banter. instead of defending the people in this hobby overall (but not every individual in it, obviously).

that's not particularly clever. denounce individuals, if necessary, but defend the group.

>>55342521
just insert whatever old RPG you like, that's entirely besides the point.
Naming Daggerfall instead of Morrowing doesn't change the core of the argument whatsoever.
certainly doesn't make it more clever.

>>55358347
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. It also doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean that people should bend over to let you

>>55342727
and rightfully so, faggot

>>55355385
>>55355464
There are people that live close to the mean in the majority of given bell-curves, but they're NOT common. The idea that it's mainstream to be normal is a fabrication made by people who live on the outside of the fringe. The idea that it's exotic to not be normal is a fabrication made by people who live on the inside of the fringe. Both exist entirely to create a feeling of exceptionalism that is not validated in any way.

I on the other hand, sit exactly on the fringe, which is why I'm unique and you are all fucking losers.

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>>55341224

good, more players = more gril

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>>55341352
REEEEEEEE

>>55357945

No, that's done by greed. People joining a hobby hold no burden for the greed of corporations

>>55357589
Newfag, learn your place.

Roleplaying games reached the peak of mainstream with the success of WOD LARP in the mid-end-90s. Ever since that time is over, the numbers of players were diminishing. I'm glad for every sign that I'm not the last generation to play it desu~

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>>55350860
There's Discworld GURPS?

>>55341224
It's good. It's unquestionably good. It means more players. More people familiar with it. Less stigma. More people to share with. More opportunities opened through it. More people who are making more and better games.

The only people who would say otherwise are snobbish elitists who sneer down at anyone who was not part of their club house in the bad old days. Everything bad said about Hipsters applies to them on top of a bitter contempt for any bright faced newbies who could contribute positively if only they had the chance.

>>55342727
Wrong

>>55341224

Depends.

More players and money will mean better quality games, in the sense of better artwork, higher quality miniatures and so on.

But look at what happened to the video-game industry as gaming became more mainstream.

I was born in the late 80's and have been playing vidya my whole life. Games in the 90's and early 2000's were more 'niche' than they are now, they did not have as crazy a budget and not as large development teams, so they could focus on what their niche markets wanted, and they could be developed with real passion and new ideas.

Games like X-com enemy unknown, Fallout 1&2, Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex (and others) were the result of this. Timeless classics from a time full of what is now considered classics.

Then look at today. Destiny... Borderlands... micro-payments, loot-boces... Shadow of Mordor. Do I need to go on? Very technically complex and beautiful games, but also utterly 'safe' and boring due to targeting a huge blob of mainstream audience but no one in particular, and having budgets so big that they can not take risks.

So bigger budgets does not equal better games, well, it does to a point. The teams and budgets have clearly gotten too big, and the mid-to-late 2000's were probably the tipping point where the scale went from 'better' to 'worse' as the budget increased.

>>55356860
>Tyranny of Fun

The ramblings of an old man who is upset that people now days "have it easy" and don't suffer to build character.

>>55341224
If history is anything to go by, it is a terrible thing, but admittedly tabletop RPGs have been ingrained in popculture for a while.

>>55341697
I hate you.

>>55358991
Not an argument. A non sequitur in fact.

>>55342473
>Daggerfall would not come out today even if the mainstream never so much as looked in the general direction of RPGs.

Give me a good reason why it wouldn't. Arena sold enough to warrant a sequel, so did Daggerfall, the fact that we even got Skyrim in the first place proves your argument wrong.

As much as 70% of a videogame's budget nowadays is gone just on publicity, it is now cheaper and easier than ever to make videogames, and the only reason budgets have gone trough the roof's is that publishing companies are fucking retarded and want to compete with industries like Hollywood instead of catering to the audiences that actually care about them.

>>55356919
>You know why you never hear the DM on Adventure Zone or whatever say "No you cant" and then explain rules to his players?
Even with editing out rules discussions they still have moments like that in like 1/4 of the series.

>>55345353
>>55348197
>being this desperate for normie's acceptance

Funny because now all normies like to pretend they're weirdos and outsides and special.

>>55349700
You cannot "objectively" measure how enjoyable a piece of media is, but if you try, you would notice that most games nowadays have less content, cost more money, and aren't yours to keep, and they're all limited-time play online until the servers shut down.

Literally everything is worst.

>>55358547
Casual players don't want rules-lite because the contrasts and distinctions that make them interesting (whenever they are interesting) mean nothing to them; they aren't savvy enough to 'get' it in a way that'd give them any satisfaction.

They want D&D because it's Dungeons and Dragons(tm), plus it has the oh-so-recongizable class system that lets them not think about building a character outside of sweeping thematics and rules reassuring you that you're playing whatever character you're playing.

>>55356092

Your way of GM:ing would ruin my fun completely. I want serious, believable stories and worlds (I can believe in fantasy worlds if they re detailed and follow logic). I want consequences for my actions, I want rules for how things work beforehand and then stick to those rules, and I want people to behave like people.

>>55365052
Did you only skim his post?

>>55358347

If I played in his game, and he started bending the rules due to 'fun', I would drop it so fucking hard and go play with non-retards.

>>55342407
>I only play shit games
Recent years had me playing the likes of Trine, Ori, Binding of Isaac, Invisible Inc, Mark of the Ninja, Dragon's Dogma, Hollow Knight, and Hotline Miami. There have ALWAYS been shit games, and there have ALWAYS been bad games. You just don't remember them.

>>55341771
>>55349700
There are no "twibble ayyyy" games, anons. twibble ayyy is a myth and a meme. There is no objective definition, no subjective definition, and as a term has only appeared in the past few years out of fucking nowhere.

Hell, someone should define and copyright the term and never let anyone use it.

>>55365102

But now we are at a point where the good, passionate, and 'idea-rich' games have budgets and team-sizes that put them on the level of games in the early 90's graphically (sometimes extending out into late 90-ish).

The sweet spot for team size and budget was late 90's to early 2000's. Games had good graphics for the time, AND were developed with passion and innovation.

>>55365114

If someone says 'triple A game' then most gamers know exactly what they mean. That means that there are 'triple A games' and that it is a valid descriptive term.

Hint: It means very high budget games, basically (often with micro-payments and pandering to the mainstream).

>>55341359

You're right. There is no good music, no good films, no good video games, no good books, none, and there haven't been any of those for literally decades. I'm glad we have you here to police our media, because without your mentality, streamlined, mass-market approach games designed to please broad demographics would be the only games. It breaks my heart to see only CODblops and Overwatch on computer screens, transformers and MCU doing well in the cinema, and James Patterson novels on bookshelves.

You complete fucking idiot.

>>55365141
It's a myth and a meme, don't say it. Say exactly what it is; "Over-advertised" or "Big budget".

>>55365149

Why say two or three words when there is a perfectly valid other descriptor that most people (of the group I would say it to) will understand?

>>55341224
I do not feel particularly elated or alarmed at the events that are unfolding.

>t. true neutral

>>55365144

There are less than there were when the industry in question did not pander to the mainstream.

There were more good games in the 90's and early 2000's, there were a higher volume of good movies in the 80's and 90's, music probably follow the same trend.

>>55365168
Because it's you pandering to marketing cunts who said "Hey let's make up this term and spread it among our cabal so we know who is and isn't in on it"

>>55365168
Triple A and Big Budget are both two word descriptors. They have the same number of syllables. Big budget has the bonus of alliteration. Big budget often doesn't carry the negative contortions, how ever.

>>55341224
It's good because devs make more money. Basic games like D&D become super popular over time, but then it also leaves room for plenty of people who want something different, then be lead to other systems, even obscure ones, depending on their group.

So even if the most popular games become too simple for some, other games that are more enticing will gain popularity as alternatives, and other games might show up as well.

>>55342407
>where you create content and Wizards of the Coast sells it for money, which you do not see a single penny of.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be ironic, intentionally lying, or are just talking out of your ass.

DM's Guild is literally just a branded arm of OneBookShelf/DriveThruRPG and has a split pay rate just as if you sold on any of their other sites. Or any other platform you don't own. You create it, you upload it, you set the price, you get a cut of the sales.

>>55341224
Good, next question

>>55364733
Not to be pedantic, but "Xcom: Enemy Unknown" is not the same as "Xcom" or "Enemy Unknown".

>>55365245

What? Oh, the shitfuckheads named two games the same thing.

I'm of course referring to the original, the one called UFO defence in the US.

>>55365127

That's bullshit.

That's unadulterated, rose-tinted bullshit. There were scores, if not hundreds, of absolutely shit games that came out in the late 90s and early 00s, you just only remember (or even ever heard of) the good ones. This applies to vidya AND RPGs (you know, the subject of the thread?).

DOOM was incredible. It's, almost inarguably, the best single player experience in an FPS this decade. Depending on who you ask, Seventh Sea, 5E DnD, L5R 4E, or Blades in the Dark are some of the best RPGs to come out ever, and one of those was a Kickstarter from the ground up. Both Inside and Limbo are incredible games. Whether or not the canon abuse leaves you seething with anger, Shadow of Mordor is a fun game with an incredibly original mechanical system. Mouse Guard is superb. Vermintide is getting a sequel. Stardust Valley was nostalgia in a can. Whether or not you hate the fanbase and everything it stands for, Undertale was wildly successful, created by a small team, and panders to a niche many vehemently and inaccurately identify as 'mainstream'.

From every genre, video games and RPGs are doing superfluously well, you literally just hate certain kinds of cool things.

>>55365187

>80s and 90s
>cinema
>not pandering to the mainstream
>music
>even writing that

I wish you were a troll. I really, really, really do.

I gave it a genuine shot but after the third retard girl trying to make muh khaleesi that I realized I rather fight for weeks with a bunch of grognards over a single inch than spend one single minute with the harry potter, dyed hair, game of thrones brigade.
Barriers to entry are a good thing. I rather hang out with people I don't like and disagree with as l long as I discuss things and operate in similar ways to them. It's the reason I prefer 4chan compared to any other shithole site on the internet. I rather argue with you assholes than get my butthole kissed clean by low taste sycophants anywhere else.

>>55365144
>There is no good music

Very little.

>no good films

Maybe one or two a year, not always on cinema.

>no good video games

If you are very lucky 1 a year.

>no good books

1 out of every million billion that are put out every single second.

Just because there are SOME good things still coming out, and thank Christ, doesn't mean the industry as a whole is doing well.

>>55365294

What good RPGs came out this year. Since you're clearly deeply invested in the subject, I'm sure you'll have a list. You've got three minutes.

>>55341224
The spread: Good
New systens for the purpose: Yes
Hammering old "square peg" sytems into round holes: No

>>55365302
Depends on what you mean by "RPGs", if you mean PnP RPGs I gotta admit I've only been playing D&D this year.

>>55365268

I've heard your argument before and it is just wrong. Things are not always the same, and they will not always be the same. There are not an equal amount of good games being produced at all times.

Yes, there were a lot of shit games that came out, but the volume of good games was higher. The games were more innovative and had more 'soul', as intangible as that is.

It's quite telling that a lot of game that you cite as 'great modern games' are games that specifically try to go back to how things were in the 90's (DOOM, Stardew Valley, Undertale).

>>55341379
>TFW you wanted to play D&D with normies, but what you end up playing is veneer thin freeform "what do you feel the diceroll should be"

>>55365323

...okay, last year.

>>55365275

Ok, it was worded badly. Movies in the 80's and 90's pandered to the mainstream as much as they could, but they were much worse at it. They didn't have it down to a science, as they have today. The lowest common denominator was higher.

File: 1437940317513s.jpg (3KB, 125x125px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 125x125px

>>55365330
I don't know anon, why should I care? We're just doing this for fun, don't be such a nerd and a bully!

>>55365288
Anon, what you ran into is something a lot of new people to rpgs do: they hear "you can be whatever you want" and try to replicate something they know.
How many people here tried to make Conan, or Elric, or Aragorn, or Guts, or any number of fantasy heroes? You decry it as bad because you don't like the medium they are drawing from, rather than guiding them to something setting appropriate. You also clearly didn't tell them that just because you can be whatever you want, you can't always be what you want depending on the game and setting in question.
You failed at dealing with rookies because you forgot what it was like to be a rookie yourself. It's sorta sad.

Communities always need strong self-policing to be healthy and need to make sure the members are genuinely invested.

Thirsty nerds desperate for second hand vagina are terrible at self policing which is why I'll never give you "let's make everything more mainstream so I can get a girlfriend" fuckwits an inch.

>>55365326

Half the games I cited were new, half were remakes. That was... kind of the point. The same was true-ish of the RPGs, but the very nature of the genre is longer form and is deeply entrenched in iteration, so newer stuff is on a longer scale and/or not particularly new. I'll stand by Blades in the Dark.

Also, if you need other video games in the past few years that were superb and original, how about Sunless Sea or We Happy Few?

>>55365360
At least RPGs must be played with people by necessity, unlike games, movies or music that can be enjoyed in an echo-chamber. There's some hope.

>>55365359
Fullstop, I'm not going to waste time guiding people who have proven themselves to be genuine wastes of space especially if they're going to be adamant about it.
I'll teach rookies who are genuinely invested, not """"""""""""""""""""people"""""""""""""""""""" who got all their knowledge of the hobby from facebook image macros and indulge themselves in monkey fiction.
My own enjoyment is at stake here and I don't think it's enjoyable dealing with people who lack sincerity or taste. I'm absolutely sick of dealing with toxically ironic monkeys who can only contextualize everything through the same drab faux-depression nonsense and mass produced fiction.

>>55365363
Saying that the state of the industry as a whole is worst is not the same as saying that there have literally been 0 good games on the past 10 years.

>>55365345

Fair enough.

>>55365363

I know of the games you mention, but I haven't played most of them since they seem to be extremely dull and hinging on a setting or gimmick.

Anyway, I'm not against indie games, that is where I think innovation and passion lies these days. That is kind of my point. Mainstream games are so shitty that the only games that are developed with passion and 'soul' are indie games with miniscule budgets.

Also, Undertale was pure shit.

>>55365388

>>55365363

How about Pyre, or Devil Daggers? Even if you hate it, the approach to psychosis that Senua used is definitely original and innovative. What about Superhot? Trying to argue that PT wasn't an incredible proof of concept, and that that concept wasn't followed up with RE VII, is unambiguously disingenuous. How about Darkwood?

>>55365302
I'd bother to respond but you're just going to say whatever I mention isn't "good", since this is a completely subjective measurement and you've set yourself up as the almighty judge of quality.

So no. Enjoy believing that your world is dying around you and everything that isn't shit are artifacts of the golden age of your highschool years.

>>55365382
Did you explain to them the basic premise of rpgs?
It sounds like your elitism got in the way of being a good GM. I've never had the problem you are describing because everyone that comes to my table is pulled aside and explained the basics, the expectations of player and GM, and the norms of the game I am running.
If I'm running a fantasy game and they want a SOIAF expy, cool, so long as they understand that they are not that character that has already seen growth and challenges.
I had a player rip Harry Potter of hand over fist, and it wasn't an issue because they were made to understand that while they can use a character as inspiration, they are not that character.

>>55365417
Haven't played REVII, PT is a bad example specifically because it got canned. The Japanese aren't as gone to shit, even tho they pander to weebs too much. The indie industry does put out more good games, but they also in general put out more bad games just due to sheer quantity.

The AAA industry is gone to shit, however, and that's a problem because they represent the vast majority of the market still. The fact that the industry follows money, and "normies" with little care for the hobby are the majority of the money, means developers can get away with anything they want, or worst, they change their priorities to suit the normies. Just to cite a recent example, Valve, everyone is screaming at Valve because of Artifact and the HL3 debacle, yet I can assure you the dent on Valve's bottom line will be miniscule, and nothing will come out of it.

>>55365408

Some of the best games of Mouse Guard I've heard of used completely original settings, or were stapled over existing fantasy settings. L5R and 7th Sea have established settings, but L5R has two full books devoted to dramatically altering that setting, or playing in a completely different time and place within that setting.

Indie games are multitudinous to the point ubiquity. Just as many of them come out in a given year as Triple A codblops clones.

You're full of shit.

>>55365417

Nobody said that there were ZERO innovative and/or passionate games in the last decade. It is just that the average level of innovation and passion is far lower, FAR lower.

Superhot was a brilliant idea, something actually NEW. The game was so-so though, probably due to lack of budget (as I said before, late 90's early 2000's was the sweet spot of team size and budget).

Superhot with a decently sized team and a decent budget would probably result in a GREAT game. A game with story, non-monocolour-graphics and centered around that mechanic in the way that Max Payne centered around their slo-mo would be fantastic.

>>55365427

I think you either weren't following the thread of the conversation, didn't understand the post, or replied to the wrong post.

The point I was making is that their standards are stringently high and their sample size is visibly low.

It's (literally) like walking to your local theater, looking at what's playing, and concluding that the medium is dying.

>>55365479

My discussion with you has, from my side, completely shifted towards video games.

I don't know much about modern tabletop RPG's, I play 1ed nWoD exclusively at this time. I shifted the discussion to video games to illustrate that higher mainstream success and bigger budgets will not necessarily equal better games.

>>55365417
>>55365483
Also this, the fact that all the big budgets are reserved for big games, and companies don't wanna make risky big games, means most innovative ideas are relegated to be small projects.

Contrary to popular belief, making a game in the 1990s, altough cheaper, wasn't modern indie levels of cheap, it still costed a few good millions per game, except for some rare exceptions.

>>55365483

You're biased as fuck and you're not even pretending you're not.

>>55365502
I don't think tabletop is dying, yet, but I don't want it to get to that point.

>>55365479
>>55365504

Also, you are wrong. What is the indie equivalent of Deus ex or Fallout? Dex? It is just a shadow of the former.

Indie games ARE where passion and innovation lies, but they are not as skilled as professional dev teams, and they will not create things that are as good.

No indie game has reached the heights of Deus ex, Fallout, Bloodlines, etc (possible exception: Minecraft, since literally nobody else did the same thing so there's no comparison).

>>55365509

I am fully aware, and I've raised your exact points in this discussion before.

>>55365513

You are unbiased?

>>55365504

It won't get worse, either. The industry will grow larger, the mainstream successes will be more obvious, and the independent, more niche content will continue to be low-key.

The only thing that will change will be the scale.

>>55365530
Wasteland 2 is pretty good, but that was literally made by the Fallout producer. Western PC games do have a history of low budgets.

>>55365542

I'm not arguing that it will get worse, I think we reached critical shitty way before today.

The rise of the indie market was the end of the 'max-shit'-era, now at least we have an alternative, and my prediction is that indie-budgets will, on average, rise until we hit my personal sweet-spot (late 90's early 2000's budgets and teamsizes), and at that time we will see truly great games again. Then even their budgets will bloat and we are back in the cycle.

>>55365546

I tried it, I didn't much care for it. It was just a hollow echo of the original Fallouts. It focused much more on combat but had a worse combat system than even the originals (basically the same system but with squares instead of hexes, which is inherently more clunky).

>>55365563
Indie games are already going into shit-mode, with a lot of devs exploiting crowd-funding and such. It's unlikely indies will ever have bloated budgets, because in order to get a bloated budget you have to be making millions every year, and chances are you've grown out of the indie stage if you are.

>>55365530

I'd probably call the Witcher series the equivalent of Deus Ex. Dishonored works too. I didn't play it, but everyone I know loved the new Shadowrun game.

People still talk about Rogers and fucking Hammerstein, man. There are entire college degrees based around Greek tragedies. Fuck, theater was at its HEIGHT when Shakespeare was writing, and I'll bet you money you can't name a single contemporary of his that isn't Kit Marlow. We still talk about Michelangelo, mostly because he was a fucking genius. Fallout and Deus Ex were innovative because video games are incredibly young, so any particularly new example is guaranteed to be innovative because this is not a fucking pipe.

You god damn phillistine.

>>55350748
Caring for your product also means you want to spread it and you can't blame Bethesda for not foreseeing just how fucking limited consoles are compared to PC several years into the future, forcing them to vastly reduce scope.

There's thousands of people playing Skyrim on Steam who can't stand numbers/nuance, who just want to catch butterflies outside of Whiterun and win fights against dragons with two iron swords. They're not up for listening to politics or religious history, whether due to how they want to manage their free time or how they're not particularly cerebral, so it's all kept simple. You can only exclude content from yourself by accident, choices are less meaningful and just less present in general. You can't even be a goddamn proper mage anymore.

On the Skyrim mods subreddit - not even the main Skyrim subreddit - you get a lot of people saying "my mom/dad/aunt/granny loves this game, they've spent over 300 hours decorating Breezehome and plucking flowers". Those people would never even THINK about trying Skyrim if they had to face a character sheet at the start, nevermind if melee combat required any sense of timing or magick combat becoming more complicated than "archer with pretty particle effects and a force shield".

I love Morrowind and liked Oblivion a lot. Both have flaws, but the only thing from Skyrim I prefer comes from mods.

>>55365530
Polished=/=Good

>>55365462
It doesn't matter. I just don't want to waste time on that kind of person, full stop.
They're nearly all guaranteed clones of each other and I'm not going to waste my time sticking my head in the mouths of lions looking for the one vegetarian miracle lion.

>>55365620
No, but it sure helps getting there.

>>55365615
>you can't blame Bethesda for not foreseeing just how fucking limited consoles are compared to PC several years into the future

Let's not pretend Bethesda isn't at fault here.

>>55365615

>Morrowind
>a good game

Morrowind was a SHIT game. It was trash. The graphics were bad for their time. The mechanics were clunky, poorly implemented, combat was no better or worse (or particularly different) than Skyrim (no, directional attacks were not good, stop), you can absolutely be a mage in Skyrim.

Literally every single person I know who ever played Morrowind jumped everywhere they went that they didn't expect to be fighting things because it helped you level.

The setting, though. That was incredible. You had a huge, sprawling world, with villages, and roads, and sign posts, and wilderness, and it all felt REAL. It had space, it had cramped streets, it had books, it had persistent and alien cultural mores, it had believable immigrants.

It also didn't have a mandatory character sheet. You could flat out just say "I wanna be a fighter" at the outset, or just answer questions and roll with that.

Your glasses aren't even rose-tinted, you've just jammed two roses, stem first, into your eye sockets.

>>55365591

Calling the Witcher 'indie' is correct but a bit disingenuous though. Most people mean games that are developed by small teams with small budgets, not studio funded. Witcher 3 had hundreds of staff and millions of dollars behind it.

>>55365684
Sure.

What does that have to do with the whole "games now are either soulless or unpolished!" thing though? The whole indie/AAA divide is just coincidental to that.

>>55365684

>Deus Ex
>indie

>>55365657

Morrowind is a great game. You can't just excise the setting from the game and then call the game shit. I fully agree that the gameplay is the worst part of the game (altough I think it's fully functional), but the setting, the lore, the details, the passion that oozes out of every nook in the game makes the game great.

It's not just nostalgia either, I have friends that picked the game up in their 20's after having played Oblivion/Skyrim, and they absolutely love it and place it above the rest just because of the things I mentioned.

>>55365696

Literally nobody said Deus ex was indie.

>>55365630
Provided the extra cost doesn't have investors screeching to cut content for faster release and quick returns.

>>55365716

>>55365530
>What is the indie equivalent of Deus ex

>>55365591
>I'd probably call the Witcher series the equivalent of Deus Ex. Dishonored works too.

Just stop posting. You've reached the point in the argument where you've become so invested in your point of view you're clipping out entire threads without even noticing.

>>55365738

Uh... still, literally nobody said Deus ex was indie.

>>55341359
>Popularity in the mainstream will inevitably lead to designers basing their games on what appeals to the mainstream
wrong

>>55365633
Bethesda has fault in it, but not the exclusionary fault unless you're honestly trying to say that Todd Howard has some kind of clairvoyance ability and just CHOSE not to use it to explain the consequences of focusing on consoles to accountants who aren't really interested in it to begin with.

>>55365657
I'm over here, stop talking to that strawman.

Yes, Morrowind's strength is the setting. And what a strength it is, people who played Morrowind after Oblivion and Skyrim praise it for that too. The variety of magic effects you could use, even together, was great too.

Most other things were mixed at best, and believe me: I see the atrocity that is using dice to determine to-hit in a real-time 3D game and that dreadful attribute growth system for what they are.

You misunderstand some key points (and I'll pretend you didn't just miss "they had flaws") of what I'm saying: Skyrim is worse because it has less, PERIOD. What you're saying about Morrowind letting you pick a class ignored how you're still supposed to pay attention to a literal sheet of stats, whereas in Skyrim you don't have attributes at all.

And mages in Skyrim? You're supposed to be a literate, intelligent person who solves complex problems with tools you made yourself. But you can't do that in Skyrim. You can become Archmage without learning a single fucking spell, friend.

>>55365530
>What is the indie equivalent of Deus ex
E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy
>or Fallout?
Underrail, excluding Wasteland 2.

Get fucked.

>>55365781
>E.Y.E.

I love E.Y.E. but it's not on par with Deus Ex.

>>55365797
Yeah. IMO it's better.

>>55365781
I saw Underrail mentioned once and didn't think much of it. It doesn't seem to be popular.

>>55365806
Neither are the pre-Bethesda Fallout games.

>>55365811
Relatively speaking? They absolutely are.

Underrail is much more recent, exists in a much larger market, yet seems to be less known than Fallout back in the day.

I don't even understand what the argument is anymore.

Videogames have been ruined by popularity because I won't accept any indie game being as good as the AAA I'm nostalgic about?

Did I get it right?

>>55365822
Back in the day, sure. I'm not really certain what that has to do with anything though. It's certainly popular on /v/, if for whatever God-forsaken reason you're using that as a metric for how good games are.
>>55365830
Dumb passive-aggressive poster.

"are subcultures getting highjacked a good thing for the original community of the subculture or not?"

how stupid would you have to be to think that this would be a good thing?

>>55365832
The metric is "renown in the market of its time". Not correcting for the passing of time itself skews statistics.

itt: sweaty nerds desperate for female attention screech at sweaty nerds that have completely given up on ever getting female attention.

>>55365830
Wait, let me amend it.

>Videogames have been ruined by popularity because I won't accept any indie game being as good as the AAA I'm nostalgic about, and so it'll also ruin RPGs


>>55365832


>Dumb passive-aggressive poster.

No, I literally don't. Explain the thought process behind this.

>>55365876
Videogames have been ruined because the AAA industry is gone to shit and the fact that there's a couple of good indie games every now and then doesn't change the state of things in general.

>>55355385
What's a normie for you ?

>>55365864
>The metric is "renown in the market of its time".
That's a stupid metric. Why on Earth are you using that to gauge goodness? Plenty of horrible games are well known, and plenty of great ones are lesser-known.
>>55365876
So reply to him and preferably without taking the most bad-faith interpretation possible. Otherwise your butthurt's gonna make him butthurt and you'll screech at each other without really saying anything beyond a few inventive insults.

Although that can happen regardless.
>>55365890
Videogames have improved hugely because the western AAA industry has gone to shit, allowing the AA and indie scene to produce huge amounts of great content to fill their vacuum.

>>55365895
It's not meant to be measuring quality, I literally said "renown". I don't even know how good Underrail is, so if you know more about it feel free to tell me what it's like. Maybe we can figure out if there's any particular reason why it's relatively less known.

>>55365895
Western AAA's going to shit has relegated a lot of great developers to low budgets and small teams. Not a good thing IMO.

At least PnP RPGs don't literally prevent you from playing things you like so you buy the new thing you do like.

>>55365914
We're talking about whether or not vidya has plummeted down the shitter, no? In that case, quality is what we should care about, not renown. After all, my whole point (and others') is that lesser-known games are being produced which are just as good as previously well-known ones.
>>55365916
It also (in combination with kickstarter, indiegogo &c.) gave developers an essentially safe-room for them to make the game they want without significant repercussion. For example, in the 2008 shitstorm a lot of devs were laid off -- so they made indie games, because why not? The worst that happens is that they make no money, but they weren't making money to begin with.

Whereas AAAs HAVE to be fucking careful with what they do. They HAVE to ensure they have a large market, because they're huge, and their budgets are huge, and a failure hurts.
>At least PnP RPGs don't literally prevent you from playing things you like so you buy the new thing you do like.
I don't understand how game's prevent this. I haven't bought a western AAA game in years.

>>55365781

Allow me to laugh.

>>55365945
No.

>>55365937
Kickstarter and indiegogo are new things, we'll have to see how they develop, people are very quick to call a scam nowadays, after seeing how even well renowned developers can fuck you over.

>I don't understand how game's prevent this. I haven't bought a western AAA game in years.

Most games nowadays have DRM. Sure they can't prevent you from buying a game from another company, but if they kill a franchise you like there's fucking shit you can do about it.

>>55365832

Underrail is just a Fallout-clone, you mong. It specifically tries to recreate the gameplay and depth of the original Fallouts. How in the flying fuck can you argue that this game is proof that games on par with Fallout are still coming out?

>>55365895

There's no great content to fill the vacuum, you imbecile. Underrail, Undertale, E.Y.E and whatever are not even CLOSE to Fallout, Deus ex, Bloodlines etc.

>>55365955
>what's the indie equivalent of fallout?
>it's this game which tries to recreate fallout
works for me

>>55365937
Quality tends to be a self-advertising facet of a video game. Yet, sometimes it doesn't work that way. There are reasons for this, such as the specific level of quality being high but also very niche.

I don't know enough about Underrail to say whether there are external factors dampening its success or you're just giving it too much credit. That's why I'm asking you to tell me more about the game.

>>55365953
They are, and they are right to, but in fact a lot of good indie games would not have been made if it weren't for the two sites.

DRM's dumb, yes.
>>55365955
Uh...yes?
>>55365969
I'm sorry anon, but you're just objectively wrong.
>>55365980
It's niche.

>>55365980
>Quality tends to be a self-advertising facet of a video game
You know we're discussing AAAs being bad, right?

>>55341467
>WHFB End Times
Let's be honest; GW had been fucking you guys up the asshole without even bothering to use lube for over a decade, and "normies" had nothing to do with End Times due to model wargaming being so niche that most pseudo-nerds I've spoken to literally did not know it existed, let alone everyone else in life.
Why would they suddenly get LESS shitty when the only thing people did was keep buying from them no matter how shitty they got?
That single thing at least is 100% GW's customer base being a beaten housewife that keeps moving back in with that ugly fuck who punches her miserable face bloody every evening.

>>55365144
You're comparing apples to oranges retard.

Music, Films, Video games and books are all solo activities for the most part. You can share them with friends but you don't have to do so. Tabletop games you're forced to play with other people.

This is the 40k monopoly problem. 90% of people play 40k because everyone plays 40k. It's very hard to get another game off the ground and those that do are usually secondary games. Warmachine had it's own community but it wasn't keeping stores a float like Magic and 40k do, so even though it existed for most people it was a parasite on 40k. Doesn't mean it didn't make money, but it was making money due to a larger product keeping the stores open.

>>55365973

Fallout was an original game that was fresh at the time (late 90's).

A game that comes out over 20-years later and that aims to, at best, be as good as Fallout, and which has sub-par graphics even to the original, is not a contender.

Is Shovel Knight better than Super Mario bros 2?

>>55365994
AAAs do not self-advertise, they are almost defined by having a marketing budget that exceeds production budget. But that's not quite my point - it's that I've been asking for a rundown of what Underrail is, and the only answers I've gotten is "the gameplay aims to recreate Fallout". And that's not a favorable description when someone claims it's ON PAR with Fallout.

>>55366014

*3, my bad.

>>55365986
True, but the point of all of this was that those good indie games are more like a shine of light in an ocean of shit, while in the past it certainly felt like even the most mediocre games were decent. Tho that if you kept to consoles, of course.

>>55366014
>is not a contender
Anon, we're not talking about "games as good as Fallout". We're talking about the indie equivalent of Fallout. Of course there are better indie games, that's without question. AI War and Dwarf Fortress are both better, and both new things, but they're not the indie equivalent of Fallout.
>>55366032
Not in my experience. The concept of the hidden gem exists for a reason -- many good indies are picked up, yeah, but a lot aren't.

>>55366014
>Is Shovel Knight better than Super Mario bros 2?
Yes.

>>55365359
>I want to be a whore who fucked her way into power and got mythical beasts to fight her battles
vs
>I want to be an adventurer who stands on his own 2 feet

One of these you can work with, the other one you can't.

>>55366039
>Dwarf Fortress
>new thing

>>55366056
Tell me what Dwarf Fortress was copying.

>>55366025
Forgot to mention: and the fact that "it's like old Fallout" is just the only thing that people can say about it seems to prove that it's not as popular because its best quality appears to be "It's like old Fallout".

>>55366059
Rogue, in part, but it's also nearly 20 years old.

>>55365417
Innovation comes from limitations. When you have smaller specs and smaller budget sizes you can't just brute force it. When you have unlimited CGI and teams of 300 people you don't have to make any compromises. This leads to complete stagnation because you never have to over come your own limitations in interesting ways.

>>55366039

Indie equivalent of Fallout IS the indie game that is as good as Fallout, how anybody could interpret that sentence in this discussion to "The indie game that clones Fallout the most" is beyond me.

Dwarf Fortress is NOT better than Fallout, jesus christ. I've never even heard of AI-war (which doesn't speak well for it).

>>55366070
This is why most web pages are absolute garbage written by monkeys now.

>>55366075
Because that's what equivalent means.
>Dwarf Fortress is NOT better than Fallout
>I've never even heard of AI-war (which doesn't speak well for it).
Anon...maybe it's your taste which is to blame.

>>55366075

Ok, I checked out AI war. Are you joking? Are you trolling? Are you on the spectrum?

>>55365530
Witcher series was an indie until the third one.

Super meat boy would also be up there

Minecraft as you said.

But you can't claim any of these games were innovative. They're all just a refinement of an early game type. There is nothing original about them just good execution

>>55366085
lol butthurt

A lot of games people have mentioned here are nearly as old now as the "retro games" people talked about when the retro craze started.

Should they still qualify as "new"?

>>55366078

Why is it that any time I get into a discussion on /tg/ specifically, I get lured into discussing with an honest to god aspergers/autism-stricken man who digs down his heels and locks down entire threads over details?

I am absolutely sure that there are more actual autists on /tg/ compared to any other 'normal' board on 4chan.

>>55366085
>>55366100
>you disagree with MY taste?
>AUTISM! AUTISM!
This is pretty sad, anon.

>>55366100
Because you're on fucking /tg/. It's a board filled with people who spend hours reading rule books for shitty games. This is autism central.

No wonder you don't like any of the shit /tg/ likes. You're the cancer that we're discussing here.

>>55355385
Normie means anyone who manages to hold it together enough to function in society. You don't have to actually be normal to be a normie, you just have to not be a failure.

>>55366075
>I've never even heard of AI-war (which doesn't speak well for it).
jesus fucking christ

>>55366237

Good things make waves. I'm quite involved with gaming. If I've NEVER heard of a game I will assume that it is probably not on the level of the old classics. Hardly a huge leap.

>>55366077
Welp, that and the "Oh man everyone needs to use the new JS framework which is all the hotness" BS which has infected web dev

>>55341467
>WHFB End Times
End Times had nothing to do with mainstreaming WHFB. In fact, WHFB was closer to mainstream 10 years before, when 6th ed was out and major vidya devs were working on games about it.

AoS was an attempt as making a mainstream game, but it flopped so hard they are soft squatting it in a bunch of fire and forget board games.

>>55366376
Not that guy but AI War is pretty well known if you're at all into strategy. It's very strange to say that a game can only be good if you've heard of it when you haven't heard of AI War. This, combined with your sperging out when anyone says two very good games might be better than Fallout, doesn't exactly encourage good faith.

>>55366644

Funny that 'doesn't speak well for it' morphs into 'can only be good if I have heard of it' over the course of a few posts.

If you seriously say that Underrail is equal to, or better than, Fallout, then you deserve scorn.

>>55367589
Funny how you think I'm saying literally anything about Underrail.

It's becoming increasingly obvious you're just a nostalgiafag who's been BTFO every single time you've tried to spread your doomsaying nonsense in this thread.

>>55358347
The rules exist to create balance, making fun happen as you progress and are able to do cool shit. If you can make a full-size dragon illusion with a cantrip, there's nothing exciting about progressing to Major Image.
It's not bullying to enforce the rules, it's literally why the DM is present at the table.
Not everything has to be about instant gratification to be fun. Improvement, progression, and fighting against difficult odds are all fun as well.