"Ah, ha ha, *munch, munch* ol' J.R.R., didn't,

haha he maek noise

>The best fantasy is written in the language of dreams. It is alive as dreams are alive, more real than real... for a moment at least... that long magic moment before we wake. Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab. Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and cloves, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer. Reality is beans and tofu, and ashes at the end. Reality is the strip malls of Burbank, the smoke-stacks of Cleveland, a parking garage in Newark. Fantasy is the towers of Minas Tirith, the ancient stones of Gormenghast, the halls of Camelot. Fantasy flies on the wings of Icarus, reality on Southwest airlines. Why do our dreams become so much smaller when they finally come true?
>We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think. To taste strong spices and hear the song the sirens sang. There is something old and true in fantasy that speaks to something deep within us, to the child who dreamt that one day he would hunt the forests of the night, and feast beneath the hollow hills, and find a love to last forever, somewhere south of Oz and north of Shangri-La.
>They can keep their heaven. When I die, I'd sooner go to Middle Earth.

But of course, tax policy memers don't know that GRRM said that.

>>55311684
I am unfamiliar with these memes, thought OP wasn't very funny.

Care to explain the autism?

>>55311714
Basically, GRRM and Tolkien have different approaches to writing, which GRRM has once brought up. He phrased it very oddly, in a way that implies that Tolkien's works are somehow worse because he doesn't detail Aragorn's tax policy.
This is, of course, not what he actually believes, and if you listen to things that Martin says about Tolkien, it's clear that he admires him very much. GRRM is also on the record saying that Tolkien probably wouldn't like his works.

>>55311760
Not him, but it also shows he's rather ignorant about Tolkien's work in general, which is at odds with his professed admiration.

>>55311760
>>55311781
I'm pretty sure the original intent of the "Aragorn's Tax Policy" line was to show the differences between his style of writing and Tolkien's. It was illustrating a difference in tone, and the further interview past that often-quoted line shows that.

>>55311804
>I'm pretty sure the original intent of the "Aragorn's Tax Policy" line was to show the differences between his style of writing and Tolkien's. It was illustrating a difference in tone, and the further interview past that often-quoted line shows that.
The quote, as I'm aware of it, reads as follows.

>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

Even before you get to the "what was Aragorn's tax policy", you have several statements about how Tolkien's writing works, that it's a "medieval philosophy", and that if the king is a good man, things will turn out fine, that are very much not supported in the books, and one only has to look at the examples of Theoden and Denethor (the latter isn't a king per se, but he's acting as a de facto king), to see that they can be good men and bad rulers. Hell, I would go further and say that Lord of the Rings is a quintessentially early 20th century work, and would certainly not have the same kind of impact to people who haven't had a WW1 style experience.

And that's before getting into the fact that Tolkien actually did consider these questions, and just didn't decide to publish it because he thought a sequel wouldn't be worth it.

why does GRRM trigger neckbeards so badly?

>>55311835
>Hell, I would go further and say that Lord of the Rings is a quintessentially early 20th century work

This.

This is what I find strange about GRRM's comments. I'm sure he admires Tolkien but I'm not sure he understands him or his writing.

>>55311947
Because Game of Thrones is currently mainstream, and /tg/ hates everything popular. I'm not implying GoT is good, though - it's fucking horrible, and it's an insult to everything ASOIAF is about.

>>55311947
I can't speak for anyone else, but at least for me, I got introduced to ASOIF back when I was in college, sometime around 2005 I think. And I heard it recommended from a friend, who advertised it as epic fantasy a la LoTR, but much more realistic.

So I picked up the books, and I enjoyed them. But they're not realistic at all, and if that was GRRM's intention, he failed badly. They're a mishmash of dung ages tropes laid over a pastiche of some kind of pseudo-machiavellian backstabathon. My biggest complaint with the series is that I don't find the setting plausible in the least, and if that's its selling point, it's a weak one. The machinitions themselves were all right, but that only made the book enjoyable to read through. I never really understood why its more rabid fans stick to the books, and then of course it broke out to much greater visibility with the television series, and at least in my opinion, it's more on the basis of shock value than any real merit. (Although I must admit, I haven't watched the show.)

To see it in such a popular position and not works of fantasy that are enormously better written is a bit galling.

>The battle between Good and Evil is a theme of much of fantasy. But I think the battle between Good and Evil is fought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make. It’s not like evil dresses up in black clothing and you know, they’re really ugly. These are some of the things that Tolkien did; he made them work fabulously, but in the hands of his imitators, they become total clichés. I mean the orc-like creatures who always do dress in black and... they’re really ugly and they’ve got facial deformities or something. You can tell that if somebody’s ugly, he must be evil. And then Tolkien’s heroes are all very attractive people and all that, of course, again this became cliché in the hands of the Tolkien imitators.
"GRRM Interview Part 2: Fantasy and History", interview with TIME Entertainment (18 April 2011)

>>55312005
Got was goat for seasons 1 through 4. Then it became woat

>>55312005

It's an insult to a bloated, meandering mess?

>>55312041

Considering the war is won by a hobbit resisting the temptation of power, not the prodigal king fighting the horde of ugly monsters, isn't LOTR exactly the same as ASOIAF?

(Or at least, how we assume ASOIAF will end, since it "obviously" won't just be Jon slaying all of the Others with his magic sword. Or so people say.)

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>>55311623
All the GRRM v JRRT skubfests are so silly. While GRRM might style himself as the anti-JRRT, at the end of the day, they are really only different on the most superficial of levels: yeah one really likes wholesomeness, and one really likes raunch, but their writing styles, and the problems therein, are practically the same.

>>55312362
>but their writing styles, and the problems therein, are practically the same.
.t has not read either.

>>55312295
>ASOIAF
>Actually getting an ending

>>55311623
This is getting to 'O MY RUBBER NEN' levels of complete retardation and secondaries memeing falsehood into truth.

>>55312389
After GRRM dies and another author finished his series.

>>55312485
Won't happen, GGRM wrote into his will that all his notes are to be burned if he dies before finishing the series.
Only way we'll get a proper ending is if Santa can deliver before he croaks.

>>55312866
Those sorts of wills aren't always honored. Terry Pratchett was quite fortunate that his will was.

>>55311947
GRRM has successfully triggered all his original fanbase, from people who have read his books in 1996 to 2011, we've all been waiting for years, and seen his quality of writing steadily decline along with his general health and work ethic. there is little hope of ever having a satisfying ending to his story, his supposed magnum opus, which he now seems to hate himself for making in the first place.

doesn't help that the show fell off a cliff past season 4, with all intrigue now transparent and former masterminds like littlefinger reduced to bumbling fools when put on the spot.

>>55312933
George doesn't have any asshole kids that can fuck him over, pretty sure everything will go to his wife. She'll already be turborich from his estate so I don't see what incentive she'll have to finish the series against his wishes.

>>55313013
you know what rich people like? more money. she'll sell out if she's offered more than a hundred bucks because there's fuckall chance she actually gives a shit about his "legacy" or whatever the fuck.

>>55313089
Getting someone else to finish means someone to split the royalty bux with. Why do that when the HBO cheques alone are enough to make her a millionaire?

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>>55312374
>Silmarillion goes on for pages about irrelevant genealogy for seemingly no reason.
>ASoIaF goes on for pages about genealogy because they passed some statues... also there's tits.

>LoTR overdescribes landscapes for pages while some people are on a walk on the way to put a ring in a volcanoe
>ASoIaF overdescribes landscapes for pages while some people are on a march on the way to a battle where some people will meaninglessly die... also there's tits

>LoTR thrusts a midget who just wants to relax in wholesome-town into an adventure to save the world from a ring
>ASoIaF thrusts a midget who just wants to relax in hooker-town into an adventure to save the world from his sister and her shitty kids.

So fucking different.
>But anon, the tits
Yeah, that's basically the difference.

>>55313609
so in other hands, the Tolkien would be have been improved by the addition of tits.

>>55313609
>for seemingly no reason.
Nigga that's the whole point of the Silmarillion.

Jesus OP, that's about the longest and most roundabout way to tell us what an annoying faggot you are ever.
Next time just say it.

>>55311947
Because frankly his books are terrible. GRRM hawks about world building when he hasn't actually done any real world building that makes a single lick of sense, and as a medievalist makes me want to rip my eyes out whenever I read it because of just how WRONG things are.

>>55311947
People are too stuck in their ways to admit that Tolkein himself was a hack in many ways, and GRRM brought the fantasy genre up to modern literary standards.

>>55311623
Okay, I'm not much of a fan of GRRM, but the guy deserves a bit better than to be meme'd into DarkSydePhil.

>>55313609
the simarillion is literally a worldbuilding book you shitter, it's not supposed to be a storybook

>>55313609
>Lord of the Rings presents you with an unreliable chain of narration, and deliberately inserts causative errors, not in terms of plot, but in terms of tone.
>ASOIF does nothing of the sort.

>LoTR operates on poetic logic; while not written in verse, except for some internal poems, it uses the sound and order of words to convey information, you can see things like Isildur's antiquity by the fact that he uses anglo-saxon sentence structure "This I will take" instead of "I will take this"
>ASOIF does nothing of the sort

>Lord of the Rings is designed so that you need to actually pay attention, close attention, to notice things, like how Aragorn speaks in a superbly chameleonlike style, often using the patterns of those he talks to.
>ASOIF, when you stop and think about it makes you wonder why places like the Riverlands don't have bridges or barges, or just how the fuck bronze age barbarians can shoot people on top of a 700 foot tall wall.

They are extremely different. You're just a pleb.

>>55313696
In reality it's a matter of preference. Wholesomeness vs raunchiness is the battle we all contend with. I lean wholesome. You lean Raunch. You're in a different place in life. Let's not quarrel. We're both just fantasy nerds trying to contend with the fact that reality often leaves us short of what we hope for. I don't see why there's trouble between fans of their works.

>>55313786
>GRRM brought the fantasy genre up to modern literary standards.
it really didn't.
he just had a schtick, like every other writer has a schtick.

>>55311623
Y'know you could have just typed "I don't like GRR Martin." and saved yourself a lot of time and embarrassment, right?

>>55314107
I think he likes to pretend George is reading it.

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Two different but indisputably influential fantasy authors have different writing styles and content and are both good at some things and bad at other things. Who fucking knew.

Oh yeah, you didn't because you're a shitposting limp dick retard who hasn't had his fill of slurping up hot wet shits into his gaping mouth at the shitpost buffet. Well let's just shovel some more shit in there to get it over with, you'll go septic soon enough.

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>>55311623
Mah nigga

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Good job you post those in every one of these threads of yours you BONELESS fuck

>>55314490
Yeahhh um Id like a thread please.. an make that shit BONELESS

>>55311623
I only post in these threads because I don't understand Tolkien's success. Did he make a deal with the devil or something?

>>55313609
Where does this "overdescribes" notion come from? I mean, yes, there's no accounting for taste and all that, but Christ, are you illiterate? Is your ideal novel paced like an airport thriller? I just don't get it.

>>55314610
Well, my stories tend to come to me in a montage, conveying a large amount of information in a short amount of time. It generally leaves unimportant details up to the audience to guess.

Writing is actually kind of boring, since to me, I'm just fleshing out the story and giving it more depth.

>>55314579
It's because you're a tasteless pedestrian.

>>55314579
Tell me which fantasy authors you like, please do.

>>55314842
Not him, but Roger Zelazny is my #1 fantasy author.
Okay, he doesn't do regular fantasy much.
If you want stock high fantasy whoever did the writing for Age of Wonders 1 defined high fantasy for me.

Tolkein is p. cool too though.

>>55311835
One was possessed and the other obsessed. They had plot reasons for being bad rules other than incompetence

>>55311947
because tolkienfags can't stand anything that could be conceivably interpreted (whether rightly or wongly does not matter to them) as criticism of JRRT

>>55312005
>>55312019
>>55312934
>>55313769
i cannot speak for his position in literature but GRRM has changed television. ned stark's death (and all that followed) are a step in the deconstruction of the formulas that television shows relied on in the past.

(the original twin peaks show was also a step in that direction; whether the new season will do that is doubtful - it probably will rather stand on its own.)

>>55315102
>because tolkienfags can't stand anything that could be conceivably interpreted (whether rightly or wongly does not matter to them) as criticism of JRRT

Are you me? I was gonna add "If we were thirty years prior with access to this level of internet, they'd be memeing about Moorcock for the same reason."

>>55313872
>lists minor difference
>They are extremely different.
okay, whatever tolkienfag

Tolkien was just "borrowing" from William Morris anyway.

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>>55314610
>Is your ideal novel paced like an airport thriller?
There has to be a happy medium between dry walls of seemingly intentionally dry text meant to appeal to other linguistics professors, and "airport thriller." However, if you're going to err, I'd always advise erring on the side of faster pacing and more action. If err on the side of slow pacing and go too far, you maintain your value as "high literature" but you're boring as shit, and if you err on the side of fast pacing, at-least you're a fun pulp. Personally most of my favorite fantasy authors wrote not necessarily before Tolkien, but before hippies made Tolkien THE DEFINING WORK OF FANTASY in the 60's
>Howard
>Burroughs
>Vance
>Arthur Conan Doyle (The non-Sherlock-Holmes work was quite fantasy, and quite fun.)
... and I find that most authors who write fantasy post-Tolkien's-ascendancy-in-the-60's suffer from the exact same pacing, tone, style, and over-description issues as Tolkien, and with very few exteptions, if I'm going to read an author who published /tg/-related fiction in after the 60's, I stick with Sci-Fi, not because I have a particular preference about the content one way or the other, but because Sci-Fi doesn't have its own Tolkien who universally defined the style of the genre to emulate him for decades after, and if it did it would be Asimov who's best works were collections of well-paced short stories. Hell, even the fantasy novelists who basically admit to churning out valuless pulp crap that serves only to entertain take stories that could have been told in 300 pages and pad them out to the thousands for seemingly no reason.

The two notable exceptions to the "if it's fantasy after tolkien it's boring" rule I've found are Moorcock, and my guilty pleasure of the Ice-Age trilogy of MTG novels.

>>55311708
thats pretty profound

>>55313609
>>Silmarillion goes on for pages about irrelevant genealogy for seemingly no reason.
faggot

>>55311835
>>55311989

GRRM's views on society are fundamentally informed by Marx.
He believes everything boils down to the struggle for power.
The clergy, the nobles, royalty, all their motives are selfish and greedy.
I mean, it's pretty explicit.
His theory of mind is absolute garbage for most of the books as well.
His people aren't people, they're these weird monstrous beasts that only vaguely resemble humanity. Their desires are always grotesque, some more obviously so than others.

>>55315321
Sounds like you're a monstrous beast in denial

>>55315321
>His people aren't people, they're these weird monstrous beasts that only vaguely resemble humanity.
if i look at modern day politics, i see lots of assholes, straight-up assholes, on all sides. it's not hard to see how civil war could break out and things devolve into a game of thrones.

if you disagree, you don't understand people, especially ambitious people in positions of power. their conscience will always take a backseat to ambition, their misdeeds will always find some inner justification and they will do what they think they can get away with.

the poublic these days is doing a lousy job of reining them in.

>>55311708
...of course most of it is a vivid food analogy...

>>55311623
Hear! Hear!

>>55315398
I don't want to be that guy, but can you please punctuate and capitalize when you use this site? Thank you. Also, you should probably stop with the reddit spacing, and sage if/when you reply to this post, since it's not really /tg/ related.

>>55311708
Too bad none of his writing has any of that.

>>55312005
How could GoT be good when ASOIAF isn't good?

>>55311708
I mean he also doesn't get that LOTR isn't meant to be realistic in any way. It's meant to be a bible-like story and if you actually read the Silmarillion that + how predetermined everything is makes perfect sense

He shoulda read a book instead of spouting nonsense

>>55315321
Historical materialism and dialectical materialism were hugely influential within sociology for a reason. They're both effective explanatory techniques for the progress of history.

>>55315512
>reddit spacing

If you're not using a line indentation, you're supposed to leave a line-break between paragraphs. This meme is stupid, and you need to learn proper formatting.

>>55315102
>i cannot speak for his position in literature but GRRM has changed television. ned stark's death (and all that followed) are a step in the deconstruction of the formulas that television shows relied on in the past.

Is GoT literally the first TV show you've ever watched?

>>55315573
>I mean he also doesn't get that LOTR isn't meant to be realistic in any way.

What something was "intended" to be does not determine what it can be criticized upon. Your reasoning is what leads to people doing shit "ironically" as a means to deflect criticism.

>>55315627
Dude what

>>55315512
no

>>55315613
i have been watching shows since the early 80s, anon

>>55315642
Exactly what I said. The fact Tolkien did not intend something to be realistic does not mean it cannot be criticized upon the grounds of not being realistic. Otherwise you legitimize the hipsters that say they're doing something to be "ironic" as a means to escape any criticism (after all, it wasn't intended to be good).

>>55315650
>i have been watching shows since the early 80s, anon

Then why are you spouting such nonsense?

>>55315664
Thats literally retarded. Its like saying "this fantasy book isn't sci-fi". Not everything has to be realistic and theres something for everyone

If GRRM says "omg lotr isn't realistic" thats not only retarded criticism its also misunderstanding the source material - the silmarillion

>>55315604
>If you're not using a line indentation, you're supposed to leave a line-break between paragraphs. This meme is stupid, and you need to learn proper formatting.
The issue is that line-break formatting causes the post to take up an excessively large amount of screen space compared to the posts around it, which greatly distorts the aesthetic of the site, and looks like shit. Also, I'm sure you're doing it deliberately, but even when using line-break formatting, there's no reason to insert an additional one after a direct quote, since the paragraph change is supposed to imply a progression to another idea, which is unnecessary when you're directly addressing the quote, and it's already in another color to separate it.

>>55315650
kil urself muh man.

>>55315690
So are hipsters now immune to criticism for saying that they're doing things to be ironic? Because that is the alternative.

We can evaluate the merit of the criticism on its own merits (in this case, "I want to explore this where he didn't") or we can say that you can't criticize things based on what the author "intended" (as though author intent has any merit in evaluating a work).

>>55315714
Nigga wtf are u talking about with that hipster crap i dont fucking give a shit

>>55315691
>The issue is that line-break formatting causes the post to take up an excessively large amount of screen space compared to the posts around it, which greatly distorts the aesthetic of the site, and looks like shit. Also, I'm sure you're doing it deliberately, but even when using line-break formatting, there's no reason to insert an additional one after a direct quote, since the paragraph change is supposed to imply a progression to another idea, which is unnecessary when you're directly addressing the quote, and it's already in another color to separate it.

I've been here longer than you, have formatted my posts exactly like this the entire time (as most posters have until we engaged in this idiotic tribalism with Reddit), and you don't get a say in what "distorts the aesthetic of the site" you fucking wendel. The quotation in this context is a separate paragraph, and it's not as though space is ever at a premium in this site.

Eat shit and learn how to format properly.

>>55314579
His writing itself was rather bad but he had most of the starting ideas of fantasy. (Someone will shriek about Conan but while the writing was good it didn't invented a lot of fantasy ideas)

>>55315665
you haven't made your case how and why it is nonsense. i can easily make the case for my claim - both regarding the impact of twin peaks as well as of ned starks death. there's tons of reviews of game of thrones that support my claim.

>>55315746
>I've been here longer than you
Lmao

>>55313609
>LoTR overdescribes landscapes

This is something I really haven't noticed.
Are there any examples?

>>55315746
i love the reddit spacing meme morons. they are just setting themselves up to get triggered.

every fucking time.

>>55315746
Have +5 internet points. Don't forget to use them to upgrade your account!

>>55315817
>>55315790
>>55315778
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/750189/

October 2007. People predominantly format their posts correctly.

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>>55314920
>Not him, but Roger Zelazny is my #1 fantasy author.

Mine melanin enhanced compadre

>>55311835
Besides isn't middle earth modelled after the early medieval period, when taxes weren't periodical payments but money raised by the king for one specific project?

Im no expert so it would be nice if someone could verify or deny this thing I heard.

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>>55311708
You know, I actually didn't, but I just gained a lot of respect for the man

I still think his books are mostly garbage, but that is nicely written little piece of wisdom, there.

>>55316002
I study history and taxes did exist. Then again i'm not a good student but surely im not wrong on this one

>>55315853
jesus fuck even when they're telling op to eat cocks their being more helpful.

>>55315208
>dry walls of seemingly intentionally dry text
Tolkien has almost none of this apart from The Silmarillion, which, again, was quickly thrown together from his notes by his son after his death. Tolkien did intend to eventually get it published, but not in the form we have today. His style is very sparce on description in general, much like the Norse and Anglo-Saxon texts whose style he tried to mimic.

>>55315573

Oh, he does. The memers are too retarded to realize that he just wanted a fantasy series that also looks into more realistic looks at ruling and power.

>>55315604

They're influential because the soft sciences are so envious of the hard sciences. Do they ape everything.

Dialectical materialism doesn't make fucking sense. It's more soft school faggotry in which butthurt people craft awful tools only because they need to feel like their particular field had actual worth.

High verbal IQ jews with below average mechanical IQ. It means they can create grotesque towers of words stringed together into a single system. But suck at actually verifying if it actually works.

>>55316310
This

Why do people think that VtM get as big as it did back in the day? As a modern power fantasy the two other core game lines of white wolf were far better, and even had better editing in their core books by a small touch.

Why was there so much interest in the 3.5 book cityscape?

Why did old shadowrun become so big? All of those things touch on the subject of ruling and power in a fantasy even if they did it in a different way.

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>>55312362

>at the end of the day, they are really only different on the most superficial of levels

this is absolutely wrong. fuck, you could not be more wrong. that whole post is terrible.

i'm hoping this is a troll post. then its a good troll. otherwise its someone talking out their ass.

Obligatory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0

>>55312866
Pretty sure that's a myth

> Lord of the Rings and Tolkein are good

http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953

>>55316909
>http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953
>Author's Note: 'Epic Pooh' was originally published as an essay by the BSFA, revised for its inclusion in the 1989 book Wizardry and Wild Romance, A Study of Epic Fantasy, and slightly revised again for this publication. It was written long before the publication and much-deserved success of Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' trilogy which, in my view, merits all the optimism I have expressed here. The essay did not attempt to deal with all fantasy, such as Alice in Wonderland or other children's fantasy, but only epic fantasy from its origins in romance poetry to the present day.

Okay, so you're taking an essay written nearly 25 years ago as a reason not to like something?

>>55315642
Not the guy you responded to, but just because something was meant to be interpreted in a certain way does not mean it is the only correct way to interpret it.

The author doesn't get to decide what something means.

>>55317121
If he said in his book that presents the definitive outline of the universe that LITERALLY everything is predetermined and there need not be taxes in the universe it is a gross misinterpretation of the source material to criticize the work for not having a tax system

>>55317150
To elaborate on that, every system in that world is governed by the Valar. Smithing exists because they've got a Valar that invented smithing. Plants exist because theres a Valar responsible for that, etc.

There's no Valar for taxes, therefore theres no taxes

>>55317150
Magic determinism is a pretty sloppy excuse for a world that doesn't make sense.

>>55317179
Magic determinism is all there is in Middle Earth
If you don't like that theres different settings

>>55311947
Because he's actually written books, made money and acheived fame, threee things that they never will?

>>55317192
The whole point that is being made is that it is a silly setting...

>>55317121
tolkien wrote stories with elements of mythology, fairy tales and fables. if anyone criticzes the lack of realism in his stories, all they're expressing is that their taste is different. that's not meaningful criticism.

>>55315095
Nah, only in the movies. In the books things are much more subdued. Theoden is a tired old man and letting his subordinates run things (badly), and was that way even before Theodred died. Denethor is proud, willful, and egomaniacal to the point of being incapable of even conceiving that he had effective allies against Mordor. They were both pretty incompetent.

>>55315149
Different narrative foci are extremely important, you pleb.

>>55315782
Every description of landscape is overdescribing in eyes of someone with attention span of average american.
Why do you think movie industry is so big over there?

>>55317198
Yeah because jealousy is the only reason To mock and/or hate someone or something

Really?

>>55317214
I don't think i ever said anything contrary to that

What i do think is fucking retarded is to criticize a setting without fully knowing what it's about

>Not the guy you responded to, but just because something was meant to be interpreted in a certain way does not mean it is the only correct way to interpret it.
Is retarded. As is the thing GRRM said, if he said it

>>55317198
>reee
I see what you did there.

>>55317239
>haha, only a stupid plebian would prefer movies to books
Fuck off /lit/, video will always be superior for information transmission.

>>55316293
He's only read it to the third chapter anyway. Assuming our troll/ranter is being honest, of course.

>>55317230
If criticism is not meaningful when there is another person who thinks the criticism is missing the point, then no criticism is meaningful

>>55317245
t. triggered.

>>55317270
Why dont you consider for a second that different fantasy universes have different cosmological rules

Also why dont u try to read the source material instead of being retarded

Thanks

>>55317246
Read "The Death of the Author". It is a good summary of why you are wrong.

>>55317285
>"The Death of the Author" (French: La mort de l'auteur) is a 1967 essay by the French literary critic and theorist Roland Barthes (1915–80). Barthes' essay argues against traditional literary criticism's practice of incorporating the intentions and biographical context of an author in an interpretation of a text, and instead argues that writing and creator are unrelated.

No.

>>55317233
>Different narrative foci are extremely important, you pleb.
prove that the above examples are important, dumbass.

>>55317239
>Every description of landscape is overdescribing in eyes of someone with attention span of average american.
everybody wants to get to the money shot ASAP, screw foreplay. i think that's pretty dumb myself.

>>55317283
>why don't you try to read this thing you have read that you don't like

>>55317270
>there is no such things as meaningless, pointless criticism
okay

>>55317300
>reads first chapter of book
>criticizes thing with insufficient knowledge
>gets mad when people point out his mistakes
??

>>55317161
You do realize there are in fact taxes in Middle-Earth, right?

For instance, letter 131 states

>In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines.

Or, you know, Saruman's system of "gathering and sharing" when he takes over the shire sounds an awful lot like taxation. The beornings run tolls. The periodic tribute that Sauron's vassal states sent to Mordor, etc.

>>55317296
>prove that the above examples are important, dumbass.
Just from the top, you can work with more or less perfect assurance that the events depicted in the ASOIF books happened, for a given value of "happened" since it is after all a work of fiction. You cannot for Lord of the Rings. If you don't understand why that is important, I don't know what to say.

>>55317328
Alright then im straight up wrong

My bad

>>55315782
the fucking flight from the shire to the land of tom bombadil alone is awful

>>55315549
He was talking about good writing. He writes stuff that sells, ie stuff with blood and titties.

>>55311623
>people like a story where evil, by the very laws of the universe of that story, was self-defeating, unable to create and masochistically self-butchering
>people like the story with the terrible prose that lasts for paragraphs between conversations

the amusing thing is these criticisms apply to either story.

>>55312041
I'm sorry. Didn't Tolkien CREATE those same tropes GRRM is complaining about?
What's next, he accuses Alice's Adventures in Wonderland of having 'It was all a dream' ending?

>>55317380
Yea honestly people think GoT and Asoiaf is a trope breaking revolutionary work but that really is not the case

The show is a DnD quest vs some evil lich and the books has a lot of dysfunctional parties with the DnD quest coming once those conflicts are resolved

>>55312041
>I forgot what the Woses were
>I forgot the whole central conflict between Frodo and the Ring
>I forgot all those times that the good guys bicker or even fight with each other.
>I forgot about Saruman.
>I forgot about all those men that served Sauron, hell, the Corsairs of Umbar seemed to be his best troops.

More and more, I think GRRM just has never actually read Lord of the rings.

>>55317436
But hey he makes a lot of money and he uses fancy words surely he must be right with whatever he says

>>55315714
>saying that they're doing things to be ironic?
>Tolkien didn't write the Middle Earth universe to be realistic because he was being ironic
Sounds like the real hipster here is you, nigger.

>>55316207
Verily. I miss the days when the internet hate machine was just a meme, instead of reality.

>>55317328
>You do realize there are in fact taxes in Middle-Earth, right?
this is irrelevant. GRRM points rightly out that such mundane matters are incidental matters to JRRT's mix of mythology, fairy tale and fable. tolienfags choose interpret his "quibbling" as meaning that JRRT was a bad writer so that they can call martin names.

a more reasonable interpretation is that his quibbling stands for his wanting to explore different aspects of fantasy.

>>55317421
In that paragraph he's saying the imitators are what has become cliche and poorly done.

>>55317336
>If you don't understand why that is important, I don't know what to say.
let's take a poll of how many readers care about that and then another of how many readers understood that to begin with. you will discover that LOTR is popular in spite of.

so, yeah, it's not important.

>>55317428
>trope breaking revolutionary work but that really is not the case
the opinion of a trillion normies and tv show critics contradict you

>>55317616
>a more reasonable interpretation is that his quibbling stands for his wanting to explore different aspects of fantasy.
Considering that he really doesn't, or at least doesn't explore the aspects he claims that he does and the ones he "quibbles" with Tolkien over, no, it is not a particularly reasonable interpretation. Considering the core statement of his "quibble" is that Lord of the Rings has a "medieval philosophy", which is blatantly unsupported by the text: while I suppose that doesn't make GRRM necessarily a bad writer, it does make him someone who completely missed the point of LoTR, such that making comparisons to it become very tricky and probably worthless.

>>55317616
This.

The second rule of writing is that all things must serve the story. (The first being, "Write, damn you, Write!") Taxes did not serve the story JRRT was writing, so he didn't bother with them. All those feats, that focus on food anmd eating and the glories of abundant food are important in ASoIaF. They are a result of plenty and great wealth, which - if GRRM wasn't a forgetful oaf - would have made a contrast to the lack of feasting, food, and abundance during Winter.

>>55317639
oh no

>>55317639
It's only groundbreaking and amazing on TV.

There's a million novels better than GoT and which were far better done, but no one reads books anymore. Even /tg/ has forgotten many of the good books that made TTRPGs great fun.

>>55317357
You shut your whore mouth.

>>55311804

To me the key difference is that Tolkien finished. Grrm is raking in mountains of cash, attending star studded Hollywood banquets, and is basking in his geek idol status. He opining on politics and football on his lj.

And his series is going off the rails. And he'll probably die not having finished it. He's reaping outsized rewards for a job he is procrastinating away and might never actually complete. And when someone raises the issue he's arrogant and dismissive. Sorry, gaiman is wrong. Artists do have an obligation to their audiences. We're buying these books expecting a complete story with a resolution.

What happens to new authors with book one out when nobody buys because they're gunshy and waiting for the whole series to be in print before they dive in?

I've been a fan since the Meisha Merlin days, but

>>55317626
Just because a reader isn't consciously aware of a factor doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor that it's incidental to the reading experience. A reader might not grasp exactly why Isildur sounds funny when people quote him, but they'll notice that he talks differently than someone like Sam or Frodo. They might not get the similarities between the Faramir encounter with Frodo and Sam in Ithilien and the one between Eomer and Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas in Rohan, but I'd bet anything that almost every reader would notice the personality differences between the two just on the basis of those two scenes.

Even if it's not consciously grasped, saying the central points and narrative mode of a book isn't important (especially in comparison to completely other books published from unfinished notes) is stupid as shit. They are in fact very different. Would you say that steel and iron are the same metals just because most normal people can't tell the difference between an ingot of the two on sight?

Gurm is a Tolkien fanboy. He understands and loves his work just fine, but he doesn't want to do the same thing and passively reuse the themes Tolkien already dealt with, like a hack would. He also understands literary criticism and the limits of Tolkien's approach, which do not diminish the final work.

But of course this is 4chan, so everything has to be boiled down to company wars.

>>55317741
>He understands and loves his work just fine,
I'm not so sure. The quotes in this thread mentioned in posts like >>55311835 and >>55312041 seem to betray fundamental misunderstandings of Tolkien's text.

>>55317642
well, the just king who sets everything right IS a medieval trope. it usually doesnt get explained how, that part gets conveniently handwaved away.

>>55317656
if a trillion normies say that GoT is different for them, how can you contradict their experience? at the very least it means that GoT popularized the breaking of certain tropes for the public.
you can't claim that this isn't the case without looking like a buffoon, dude.

>>55317760
Maybe only my experiences are what matters to me?

I mean my sister loves the Lucifer TV series and can't even follow the basic character relationships in the GoT TV show so good for her if that brings her any joy

However her experience with the series and her opinion about it doesn't really matter to me, you know?

>>55317760
>well, the just king who sets everything right IS a medieval trope. it usually doesnt get explained how, that part gets conveniently handwaved away.
It is also a trope not found in Tolkien, so I don't really see its applicability. We have good (morally) kings who are bad rulers. We get to see Aragorn's leadership firsthand, as well as his ability to function in just about every culture we run into in middle-earth. The guy is clearly very shrewd and charismatic.

That we don't go into the minutiae of his rule is because the series ends before we get into it, not because there's some medieval trope that good king=good rule. And considering how many other medieval heroic romance tropes that Tolkien just ignores or disabuses, like say the main hero living happily ever after, I'm not sure how you can claim that the work has a medieval philosophy as a whole.

>>55317718
and now you explain to me how not being able to know if things as depicted in LOTR really happened influences readers on a subconsciously level in manner that excites them.

>I'd bet anything that almost every reader would notice the personality differences between the two just on the basis of those two scenes.
and would you also bet anything that it made a huge impact in the public's appreciation of the story overall? prove that it's something that goes beyond the fine wine appreciation of afficionandos.

>>55311623
>>>>>>>>>/lit

>>55311623
This belongs on /lit/ or /tv/, not /tg/. And yes this is just me complaining in some meek hope that this shitpost no longer befouls my eyes.

>>55317795
>prove that it's something that goes beyond the fine wine appreciation of afficionandos.
No. The claim made was that their writing was substantially different, not that people appreciate it for this, that, or the other reason.

>>55312362
>>55313609

And I quote

> While GRRM might style himself as the anti-JRRT, at the end of the day, they are really only different on the most superficial of levels: yeah one really likes wholesomeness, and one really likes raunch, but their writing styles, and the problems therein, are practically the same.

They are different. That a lot of readers can't notice that difference is sad, but it does not change that they write in fundamentally different ways.

Furthermore, the difference between what is noticed and what can be articulated by the audience is always troublesome. Go ask a bunch of people why they liked the Godfather. Or Hamlet. Or Babylon 5. Or anything else you care to name. You'll get a plethora of different answers for each one, and in every instance, they'll almost certainly have some scene or interaction that they've consciously forgotten about but if reminded of, will say oh shit yeah, that's really important.

>>55317436
>Woses
I always imagined they looked a lot like abos.

>>55317839
>No. The claim made was that their writing was substantially different, not that people appreciate it for this, that, or the other reason.
And my claim was that it's a minor difference (for anyone but you).

>>55317885
A BOAR ON AN OPEN FIELD NED

>>55317839
>That a lot of readers can't notice that difference is sad,
either that or the differences are really not that great except in the mind's eye of people who intensely dabbled in the subject.

>>55317919
M-more wine your grace?

>>55317885
Oh shit that reminded me of that one story with zombie Robb/wolf.

But naturally I can't remember the fucking title. GOD DAMN IT.

>>55317945
WHAT DO YOU MEAN ITS EMPTY

GET ME MORE BEFORE I PISS MESELF

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>>55317963
WHAT DO YOU MEAN MY PISS IS EMPTY GODS I WAS STRONG THEN

>>55317909
>>55317925
That sort of reductionist logic can be used to justify any asinine assertion about any work of art ever, so long as you cite to a sufficiently imperceptive and stupid audience.

>Caravaggio and Picasso are both substantially the same painter, they mostly did dark colored oil on cavnas work!
>Homer and Shakespeare are basically the same, they both wrote in verse about heroic figures!
>There's no real difference between Star Wars and Inglorious Basterds, they're both very violent!
etc.

>>55311708
I actually knew that Grum had said that, but I don't understand how he's able to formulate ideas that are so on point when his own writing is anything but that. I mean, if the intent had clearly been there and the quality lacking I could have at least seen that an attempt had been made, but his writing is so clearly trying to do the opposite of what he's saying here.

Then again, this is also the man who said that the people calling him "the American Tolkien" were full of shit because their works can't be compared, and then proceeded to compare his work to Tolkien's. So I'm starting to think that Grum simply doesn't know what he's saying half of the time.

>>55311708
Truly, GRRM's best work is in the letters to the editor in Marvel comics ca. 1970.

>>55317421
Tolkien didn't "create" them, just popularized them in modern writing. Physiognomy, which is essentially what GRRM was talking about, has been around since Greek philosophers and had influences in a lot of. It even shows up in The Canterbury Tales, hundreds of years before Tolkien. I certainly don't have anything against him, but I thought it was worth saying.

>>55315761
You're the one making the case that Ned getting killed is somehow revolutionary. You have to defend that first.

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>>55311623

>>55318413
I think the cynicism and grimderp in the ASOIF books was on the way out before the show started, and that the reintroduction of fantastic elements to the setting (long since relegated to dust and history) in the novels was going to see a return to more idealistic narrative constructions, culminating in the prophecy realizing the story as a really classical heroic tale with Dany and some others fulfilling their roles as the designated heroes.
Aside from his natural obesity and cantankerous procrastination, I wonder if Grum isn't having a crisis of faith in how HBO audiences just latched onto the superficial grimness of the story and encouraged the mutation of the show into drama bait fuck fests.

I haven't read his other series, but that's a feeling I got from ASOIF.
Was the stuff about Dunk and Egg any good?

>>55320207
>55317945
i dont git et

>>55320599
I mean thats what got was from season 1 to 5 (maybe 6)
It was porn for the masses. Blood, sex betrayal

There was pretty much no high fantasy there, the best guy in power was stannis until he killed his daughter and then came snow and dany and they're pretty much as "good" as people can be in their position

Not a lot of character nuances there

>>55320666
We all know the show is shit, satan.
I'm trying to appeal to the books.

>>55318057
nice reductio ad absurdum, it doesn't bolster your case though.

>>55319026
>https://www.google.de/search?output=search&q=game%20of%20thrones%20changed%20television
you're welcome

>>55320666
>Blood, sex betrayal
i hate to contradict the devil but other shows have that as well. none of them are the phenomenon that GOT has become. because GOT is more than that.

>>55322173
It isn't any more, hasn't been for a few seasons at least.
The show writers are hacks.

>>55320599
If that's your take on the series I'd really recommend Dunk and Egg. It's much more >>55311708 than the main novels. It's mostly two bros wandering around and going on adventures, and noticeably light on gore, sex, and convoluted revenge plots. GRRM is a much better writer when he can just focus on character instead of needing to do everything on an epic scale.

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Dunk rode slowly along the fence. The viewing stand was crowded with knights. "M'lords," he called to them, "do none of you remember Ser Arlan of Pennytree? I was his squire. We served many of you. Ate at your tables and slept in your halls." He saw Manfred Dondarrion seated in the highest tier. "Ser Arlan took a wound in your lord father's service." The knight said something to the lady beside him, paying no heed. Dunk was forced to move on. "Lord Lannister, Ser Arlan unhorsed you once in tourney." The Grey Lion examined his gloved hands, studiedly refusing to raise his eyes. "He was a good man, and he taught me how to be a knight. Not only sword and lance, but honor. A knight defends the innocent, he said. That's all I did. I need one more knight to fight beside me. One, that's all. Lord Caron? Lord Swann?" Lord Swann laughed softly as Lord Caron whispered in his ear.
Dunk reined up before Ser Otho Bracken, lowering his voice. "Ser Otho, all know you for a great champion. Join us, I beg you. In the names of the old gods and the new. My cause is just."
"That may be," said the Brute of Bracken, who had at least the grace to reply, "but it is your cause, not mine. I know you not, boy."
Heartsick, Dunk wheeled Thunder and raced back and forth before the tiers of pale cold men. Despair made him shout. "ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?"
Only silence answered.

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Across the field, Prince Aerion laughed. "The dragon is not mocked," he called out.
Then came a voice. "I will take Ser Duncan's side."
A black stallion emerged from out of the river mists, a black knight on his back. Dunk saw the dragon shield, and the red enamel crest upon his helm with its three roaring heads. The Young Prince. Gods be good, it is truly him?
Lord Ashford made the same mistake. "Prince Valarr?"
"No." The black knight lifted the visor of his helm. "I did not think to enter the lists at Ashford, my lord, so I brought no armor. My son was good enough to lend me his." Prince Baelor smiled almost sadly.
The accusers were thrown into confusion, Dunk could see. Prince Maekar spurred his mount forward. "Brother, have you taken leave of your senses?" He pointed a mailed finger at Dunk. "This man attacked my son."
"This man protected the weak, as every true knight must," replied Prince Baelor. "Let the gods determine if he was right or wrong." He gave a tug on his reins, turned Valarr's huge black destrier, and trotted to the south end of the field.

>>55322423
Character really is his strength.
As a veteran fa/tg/uy, it's one of the things that really made me appreciate his writing.
Yeah, it's dry at times (a lot), but he's always establishing *something*

>>55316814
https://www.tor.com/2013/11/12/george-rr-martin-no-more-game-of-thrones/

>>55311760
I mean, I don't like his work either, entirely because of tone.

>>55316341
This. It is a construct of pure rhetoric with no substance. True science is based on empiricism.

By empiricism, all modes of Marxism have failed whenever put into practice.

How do these types of threads continue

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>>55311623
ASoIaF isn't even the best book series G.R.R wrote.
Why the fuck is everyone so keen on discussing the same stale shit about it over and over again?

>>55323191
>why are people discussing something popular
hmm

>>55323191
I have a feeling this was meant to sound elitist, but it just comes off as incredibly dense

>>55323274
Why *did* it become popular, though? And I don't mean the TV series, I mean the books.
As I said, there are better things G.R.R has written in his career.
Was it because his books filled a previously unoccupied niche in fantasy? I doubt it, because there is shit like Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth.

>>55323290
>I have a feeling this was meant to sound elitist
Not really, I genuinely think that G.R.R has better written stuff than ASoIaF, like Tuf Voyaging (even if it is a blatant self-insert) or Dying of the Light.

>>55311708
This is kind of sad, and just affirms the mainstream characterization of sf&f as pure escapism for people that can't handle reality or even fiction that deals with reality.

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>>55311708
>muh infantile escapism

>>55322739
Here's something fun for you: empirically verify the validity of empiricism.

>>55317792
>We have good (morally) kings who are bad rulers.

One was possessed and the other was driven mad by grief. They're exceptions to this general rule.

>>55322778
Tolkien fans are the most perpetually asshurt fandom in all of geekdom. Beset with the dual prongs of a fandom that's both very in depth, yet not taken seriously as a piece of art by society at large, they seek to bring their inferiority complex to new heights.

>>55323422
>>55323501
>anything else than pure realism is escapism!!!
Are you seriously shitting on the whole concept of poetic and symbolic writing because muh realism?

>>55324425
I'm shitting on the idea of relying on escapism to put up with your life instead of taking the bull by the horns.

>>55324619
>says the guy posting on a forum dedicated to escapist make-belief

Even Nietzsche actually produced major works.

>>55324195
There is no indication of Theoden being possessed in the books. Denethor is doing quite badly as a monarch even before he "goes mad with grief", like how Boromir doesn't even know what's going on in Rohan right next door. .Furthermore, they're two out of how many human kings we see? You don't have enough to claim it's a general rule at all.

>>55324636
I mostly come to 4chan for the autistic banter. Its inception is of little interest to me.

>>55317121
Death of the author is a shitty meme

>>55324619
The point of my post is that more poetic writing is not always escapism unlike what you and the other guy said.

>>55324845
Agreed, but in a moment some liberal arts student will screech at you because "it's not a meme, you pleb, smart professors decided that it's the only correct way to look at art".

>>55311708
>Fantasy should be wild and unrealistic
>Dragons should have 2 legs and 2 wings because nothing in nature has 4 legs and 2 wings
Nevermind that he said this despite nothing in nature breathing fire.

>>55317121
That's certainly true, but are you going to criticize Lord of the Rings with "That's dumb, magic isn't real."?

Exercise your criticism responsibly, citizen.

>>55324425
The genre of fantasy is not distinguished by "poetic and symbolic writing". You'd be much more likely to find that sort of thing in books set firmly in the real world.

>>55324845
I have every right to find significance in art that the author never intended.

>>55324717
Yeah but you're in /tg/, a board dedicated to games that are usually tied to escapism, and what's more you're not in a thread that's focused on reality in any sort of way, you saw a picture of GRRM the fantasy author and came right in.

If you want autism and banter surely there are better boards or even better sites for that kind of thing?

>>55325573
>Yeah but you're in /tg/, a board dedicated to games that are usually tied to escapism

That might be how they're perceived ,but if you're a fan I think you can do better than saying the greatest virtue of these games is letting you forget your shitty life, which is pretty much what >>55311708 is saying about fantasy fiction.

>>55315549

I'm sure your Harry Potter fan fiction is thrilling.

>>55311623
>I do really a realistic approach to the middle ages
>women in power, women fighting, almost every female character is a mary sue that has Disney level plot armor protecting them

It's such a disconnect when you get some guy with his balls cut off and next scene a yas queen is playing princess after burning people alive.

Also the show is horrible. Nihilism is cabcer.

>>55323501

wheredoyouthinkyouare.jpeg

>>55311623
Thread only worthy of good old sage.

>>55325712
>That might be how they're perceived ,but if you're a fan I think you can do better than saying the greatest virtue of these games is letting you forget your shitty life
Yes, you can say it eloquently, since that's exactly what fantasy fiction is about. Are you mad that GRRM said a thing, or are you refusing to accept the idea that fantasy fiction is an escapist fantasy?

>>55325744
There have been plenty of ruling queens in the past. It's especially plausible for a character who a) is the last of a royal line and b) has WMDs on a leash.

Most important women in ASoIaF are influential without stepping outside typical female roles. The only glaring exception is Brienne and what the hell, the lady knight is a fun trope to play with.

>>55325537
You can but don't expect anyone else to buy it. Art is like language. You can interpret words in ways other than the speaker intended, but by doing so you're willfully disregarding the effort of communication to make your own assertions and connections, which is just kind of rude most of the time and if taken too far will just make you look like an ass. It's all well and good if they're like Hideaki Anno and their piece was just trying to appear deep, like a person speaking in a way that appears to have meaning but is actually just rambling for attention, but with written works where the author is a person we can understand with a goal and a line of thought we can follow, the conversation taking place between the author and the reader isn't a going to be a blank page for you to color your whims into. The best argument for a different interpretation than the author is actually that he's a fragmentary being that may have represented some ideas by mistake, like a man who accidentally slips his tongue to bring up something he has thought that he was unwilling to say aloud.That's because you're then pinning your ideas on an effort at communication on a deeper level than if you took his stated interpretation as law, taking him as a thinking being and not just a speaking (writing, painting, drawing, ect...) one.

>>55325841
It doesn't have to be. A setting is just decoration for a story and characters. You can use it for whatever you want.

>>55325941
I figured saying female leaders would get the wrong impression.

I'm just saying that we have this guy whose really into this hyper serious realism and then we get little girl children playing hero with a sword. It's just so jarring to me and so many female characters have this revolving protection/favoritism applied to them.

I should say that I only watched the show though. I heard they change the characters drastically.

>>55326010
Yeah, it actually kind of does. Any fiction set in a world that takes place in a world different from the readers own (including the "world" of a detective or a mafioso, if the reader is an office worker) must be more interesting or appealing than the world they live in, at least on some level, or there's no point in reading it.

>>55325841
I think I can like stories that explore imaginary worlds without displaying contempt for reality, but I also feel like this isn't a discussion that's going anywhere.

>>55326141
It's not going anywhere, but I'll end with this: WHY do you like exploring imaginary worlds? It seems like you're treating the word escapism as some kind of criticism when it's just a simple statement of fact for why people like certain kinds of fiction

>>55325941

>b-b-b-b-but muh /pol/ obsession with gender roles to forget about my hopeless love life

>>55326084
>I'm just saying that we have this guy whose really into this hyper serious realism
But he's not? At all? It's not remotely realistic and clearly was never intended to be. Other people called it "realistic" because they call everything grimdark realistic, and either he now uses that as a selling point or wants to believe it himself, but the books were never realistic and the show is even more over the top, so I don't understand what the criticism is.

>>55326099
Nah, that's just a requirement for selling the story to a general audience, not any actual restriction of the genre.

>>55324170
postmodernism is a cancer

>>55326211
That's just something I gathered from the way he says he wants to do the "good king" explanation.

There was more like I remember watching this hour long interview he gave and went on about realism. I don't know but that's also the impression I got.

>>55326099
>the story needs to be interesting

That really applies to everything

>>55326186
Personally I like the kind of secondary-world fiction that takes an impossible premise (what if you could have power over someone by knowing their secret name? what if we could make artificial creatures that are just inhuman enough we can legally enslave them?) and just explores it for a while. I don't know WHY it's appealing to imagine alternate worlds, that's a complicated question, but the kind of stories I like in this vein rarely depict places I would want to inhabit.

I'll grant escapism is a perfectly useful, non-pejorative concept. What I object to is the sentiment displayed in the GRRM quote above

> Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab.

I think that's really underselling the merits of fantasy as a genre or even just an activity, and kind of implies that people with fulfilling lives have no business with it.

>>55324170
Why?
I refute you thus! /dashes foot against rock

>>55326440
>what if we could make artificial creatures that are just inhuman enough we can legally enslave them?
we can, it's called Development Aid for Africa

>>55326084
Book characters are much more reasonable. Dorne isnt usurped by a random feminist revolution, Cersei is a failure at everything she tries to do, Arya gets by mostly by pretending to be a boy and the help of others, Sansa is the pinnacle of traditionally feminine strengths and does not (or has not yet) assumed any position of real authority, and Brienne is even more openly scorned and mocked for being a literal freak of nature.

Meera Reed and some of the wildlings are probably the most outright examples of "strong women," and even then its just because they live in the wilderness.

>>55311947
The thing that bothers me most? He gave a number for the wall in the north's height - I can't remember what - but then when that showed up on TV, he kind of went 'oh, I didn't think it would look that big.' It was just a big number to him.

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>>55312041
>But I think the battle between Good and Evil is fought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions we make.

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>>55322474
>>55322512
Baelor Breakspear was too good for this world

>>55326337
It's really not as bad as it's made out to be. Most people that bitch about it don't know the first thing about it. It wasn't about rejecting knowledge, but putting it in a specific context to glean more from it.

>>55326471
Verify the validity of that sense experience.

>>55324653
Find a single instance of a good ruler with a kingdom doing poorly, and you'll refute him. Theoden was listening to wormtongue, which disqualifies him, and Denethor wasn't fit for the job, which also disqualifies him. If I recall correctly, GRRM said "good king" not "good man" and being a good king is more than just being a good man; it also doesn't mean your kingdom is guaranteed to do well.

>>55311989
>I'm not sure he understands him or his writing.
In his mind, he had surpassed papa Tolkien.
"In his mind" , anyway.

>>55328509
>>55324653
Oh wait, disregard, I'm a complete faggot.

>>55311708
But thats 95% irrational nonsense. Even in metaphorical terms.

And that's coming from someone that adores stories filled with child like imaginative whimsy.

>>55317826
>This belongs on /lit/ or /tv/, not /tg/.
A discussion about lotr and asoiaf? Tg is the place.

>>55328616
Both have pen and paper games. One has like a half dozen of the bloody things.

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>>55328663
tru fax

>>55329024
Huh.

>>55311708
>We enjoy fantasy, because fantasy is more epic in scale and colorful in nature than reality.
But that's wrong, dummy.
We enjoy fantasy because it interposes perfectly human interactions, ideas, values and morality onto something that isn't normal for humans.
For example, look at Alice in the Wonderland. We enjoy it not because Wonderland is a strange land, but because Alice is a normal human in said strange land.
Despite whatever you might think, 99% readers of fantasy read it for character interactions and scenery descriptions - and the former is purely human, while the latter is purely verbal eyecandy.
Too many people are interested in fantasy because it's wonderful, but not full of wonders.

>>55331891
I'm pretty sure alice was crazy.

>>55331930
And yet she was relateable.

Just like Gulliver was relateable in his Gulliver's Travels, just like Dolly was relateable in Wizard of Oz, just like Harry-fucking-Potter was relateable in his titular book series.
All of them possessed an undeniably human outlook on life and human values.

That's the fucking thing - people don't want to read something they can't relate to (i.e. "humanity" in the sense of the quality the humans innately possess), which puts restrictions on the content you can put in your fantasy heartbreaker.

>>55331955
>Dolly
Dorothy, of course, derp.

>>55313786
lol he described a lady having chronic diarrhea lol so funny xxxxxxddddddddddddddd

Please kill yourself. Fantasy literature has been shit since the early 90s.

>>55311947
A discernable lack of talent.

>>55326629
700 feet. He said it was 700 feet tall. The location where they film the Wall scenes for the show have a cliff that's about 400 feet tall. GRRM visited the location and something akin to the following conversation took place
>"Doesn't the Wall look a little big?
>"It's half the size of what you specified in your book."
>"Oh... I might have made the Wall a little too big."

>>55311708
Isn't that like exact opposite of what he writes?

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>>55332658
I've never understood how he made that cock-up. Probably he went for an imposing height without looking up stuff that is actually 700 feet high - like the Hoover bloody Dam.

Then again, it's not that uncommon either. David Weber's Honor Harrington books went through a thing called the Great Resizing because Weber's spaceships were "less dense than cigar smoke" because he hadn't done the calculations. As a result, when people who actually did maths got onto it, the ships shrunk.

>>55317357
Really?
It was mostly "They went from A to B and there were some terrain features. Also rape-tree and Mr. Dancing Guy in yellow boots and blue jacket."

>>55313786
down, down to modern standarts.

>>55326440
>I don't know WHY it's appealing to imagine alternate worlds
it's a thought experiment that ultimately makes us learn something about our world. yeah, i am into the same thing as you, anon.

and that the intrigue of GOT resonates so much with the public does say something about our world: that a great deal of people are interested in honing their skill of prevailing against others.

>>55332112
>getting triggered by descriptions of diarrhea
i kek'd

>>55316059
>I study history and taxes did exist.
Fixed contributions existed, which eventually led to the problem that taxes could not keep up with inflation or economic growth, meaning that the powerful would've become poorer every generation had they not relied on straight up hands-on violence to fill their coffers.

>>55318057
>TVTropes

>>55332681
Here's an example of how he writes.

>>55322474
>>55322512

>>55311623
What the fuck is with cunty artists always been so stupidly cunty? Just make a good thing, you cunt. Near always the most pretentious shit ever.

>>55315604
>Historical materialism and dialectical materialism were hugely influential within sociology for a reason. They're both effective explanatory techniques for the progress of history.

No, they aren't effective for anything. Dialectical materialism is Circular Logic: The Theory. Historical materialism resulted in Popper codifying the idea of falsifiability specifically to debunk it, because it could (and did!) provide post factum explanations and rationalizations to any and all possible incidents and occurences of history (while its total lack of predictive power is evidenced by the collapse of the Soviet block).

They got influential in sociology, because (1) modern sociology attracts the sort of people who like to get fat money for justifying whatever people paying them want to justify; (2) sociology, like the entire liberal arts is heavily infiltrated by leftie cultists, and for them little things like 100% failure rate is not a reason to consider their theories wrong.

>>55328480
>It's really not as bad as it's made out to be

It is. The whole premise refutes itself.

>It wasn't about rejecting knowledge, but putting it in a specific context to glean more from it.

It was pretty much about not wanting to do actual hard work related to accumulation of knowledge, and wishing to get paid for vacuous word salad.

>>55332681
I think he was making an argument for fantasy in general, whereas he prefers to write fantasy differently.

>>55311947

Gee, I wonder if publishing a mediocre installment in a series which is his main, if not sole claim to fame, and then clearly being unable to finish it (by writing himself into a corner, lacking work ethic, or getting into a conflict with his chief ghostrwriter, take your pick), may have resulted in people viewing his barbs aimed at other authors as unwarranted arrogance.

>>55311708

how does this appear wise to anyone on this board. he's just comparing two extremes from the category of medieval fantasy and modern reality, when in truth good fantasy has elements from both worlds. reality is beautiful, full of sweet food and pretty gemstones and big boobs and whatever else this old hack is preoccupied with. everything he describes as being written in the language of dreams is just reality through the eyes of someone who deeply appreciates the waking world, but somehow this fat sack of shit thinks its just escapism.

if ever I had any respect for this man it is now void.

>>55315321
Nah, it is just how things go.

>>55329024
It really boggles the mind that they chose fucking AGE of all systems for the new edition of Blue Rose instead of, you know, the system intended for roleplaying noncombat characters engaged in large scale social maneuvering and emotional manipulation over long periods of time.

>>55311804
>the intent of the "Aragorn's Tax Policy" line was to show the differences between his style of writing and Tolkien's
Yeah, it's this. The quote (when considered in context) is obviously hyperbolic. He's not complaining that Tolkien didn't get into the gritty details, just pointing out how his approach to the genre differs. The fat man obviously adores Tolkien, and there are plenty of middle earth fingerprints on SoIaF, as on most fantasy. I'm not really sure how / why anyone gets so fired up about it - his conclusion seems fairly self-evident.

If you want to talk criticisms of Tolkien by modern fantasy authors, Mieville's is wayyyyy harsher:

>Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious—you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there's a lot to dislike—his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien's clichés—elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings—have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.

>That is a revolting idea, and one, thankfully, that plenty of fantasists have ignored. From the Surrealists through the pulps—via Mervyn Peake and Mikhael Bulgakov and Stefan Grabiński and Bruno Schulz and Michael Moorcock and M. John Harrison and I could go on—the best writers have used the fantastic aesthetic precisely to challenge, to alienate, to subvert and undermine expectations.

>>55334152
Yeah, but Mieville's attitude towards Tolkien is so obviously a product of his ideology that it's almost impossible to take it seriously. I'd say his determination to reject anything Tolkien-ish impairs his work, honestly, and I'm saying that as a Mieville fan. I think it's part of why Mieville can't write a decent denouement to save his life.

>>55334152
But the point I've been harping upon is the terms he uses when discussing Tolkien here and elsewhere demonstrate that he (GRRM, not Mievelle), completely misunderstands what Tolkien is going for. His conclusion is NOT self-evident, because its first prong is badly off target.

>>55333587
>fantasy resembles reality as experienced by the very, very rich
An interesting thought, that.

>>55311623
Can you explain to me why exactly his style of writting is problematic? I get a lot of people just wanna cut down to the chase, and don't care about the day-to-day practicalities, but some of us do like to learn about those things and do find them interesting.

A topic died for this.

>>55315208
Ha! I love the Ice Age Trilogy!

>>55335633
He hypes up his fantasy as being "realistic" absent explicit supernatural elements, while being nothing of the sort and mostly subscribing to old dung ages stereotypes that really have no basis in history. His world, quite frankly, makes no sense.

In a work of fantasy that isn't really trying to focus on that sort of thing, say the Belgariad, that's mildly irritating but ultimately not a huge detriment. In a work that at least purports to base itself on such, it's a pretty major flaw.

>>55335401
>as experienced by the very, very rich
no, as perceived of people who are very, very rich, by people who are not very, very rich

theres a pretty big difference. the former is reality, in which the admittedly affluent people quickly become desensitized to their luxuries and lose appreciation for it, and the latter is the idealized fantasies in which a persons desires have been imbued

>>55311947
He's that guy who inserts his weird fetishes into everything, but as a globally-known author.

>>55335633
Because his books are terrible and he's just taking the piss by this point.

>>55326629
>>55332658
>>55332709
>Writers of fiction
>Having ANY FUCKING IDEA when it comes to scale or measurements
funny joke

>>55311623
Is the fat man the one that wrote a whole section about a chick next to a river with diarrhea? "The more she drank the more she shat"?

>>55311714
It's as >>55311760 says. It's a case of people on the internet taking things way too literally.

>>55333281
The creation of art is intrinsically an act of hubris. You can't make art (well, at least not good art) unless you think what you have to say is important for other people to experience. If you don't have the ability to think of yourself as a badass gift to your medium, you don't have it in you to be an artist.

>>55335866
>writers having ANY FUCKING IDEA when it comes to scale or measurements
>funny joke
It's a mixed bag. Some do a lot of homework (esp those with a science or engineering background), some do a little, some do none at all. The really ridiculous errors tend to be quite memorable though.

>>55336959
>All art is hubris
Also a mixed bag. Certainly true of a guy like GRRM, but to use a convenient counter-example, Tolkien doesn't really come across that way in either his writing or biography. Not everyone who creates art intends to be famous, or becomes so before his death. Quite a lot is created by people, for themselves, with no intent to publish or (in some cases) even share it with anyone.

>>55337144
I have a lot of arguments with this, but most of it boils down to the ideas that all art is communication, and that a message requires both sender and receiver before it can be called communication. I think that art without an audience is missing something essential to its being.

>>55334152
>I'm not really sure how / why anyone gets so fired up about it - his conclusion seems fairly self-evident.
simple: there is a star in the sky now next to/near tolkien and tolkienfags don't appreciate that AT ALL. that's why they feel the need to smear gurm.

>>55334152
>>reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos,
>making lefties so butthurt you wouldn't believe it
wtf i love hierarchical status-quos now

>>55335954
see >>55332973

>>55333492
>t. I haven't even read the wikipedia article on it

Kay. Skeptical criticism of this nature is an important component of the philosophical process. Without Hume, there would be no Kant as we know him.

>>55338332
So it was then.

What was the point of the shitting by the way? What did the story focus on it for,

>>55338303
>I define my likes by what pisses off people I don't like.

Hopefully you'll grow up some day.

>>55328480
sense experiences are self-validating

>>55311708
God this purple shit is awful. Fucking hack.

>>55338387
>pissing off assholes is a good thing
>a thing that might not so great otherwise can be partially redeemed by it at least pissing off assholes
no. now fuck off, asshole.

>>55337583
>I have a lot of arguments with this, but most of it boils down to the ideas that all art is communication, and that a message requires both sender and receiver before it can be called communication. I think that art without an audience is missing something essential to its being.
Alright, I can buy that, even if the communication is often only one-way. But communication doesn't imply ego. There are other reasons to want to communicate besides "What I think is super important and the world needs to listen." The anon I replied to was going even further than that, saying that all art is hubris. Not merely inflated ego, but inflated to the point of being a fatal flaw. That's what I was disagreeing with.

>>55338283
>there is a star in the sky now next to/near tolkien and tolkienfags don't appreciate that AT ALL.
GRRM isn't the first fantasy author to rival tolkien in popularity, at least for a short period of time though. Hard to judge whether that will last. Probably need to get clear of the show by at least a decade or two and see if people are still talking about SoIaF... the current level of hype is at least in part artificially generated by relationship to the show.

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>>55315604
>They're both effective explanatory techniques for the progress of history.

And Phlogiston theory is an effective explanatory technique for thermodynamics.

>>55338537
Go talk to a hallucinating man about that.

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>>55338283
>there is a star in the sky now next to/near tolkien

No, there isn't, and your easy explanation for why is that Martin is not going to finish the series, and if he does, it'll suck just like it has so far. Unlike Tolkien, who was driven and who completed the entire Lord of the Rings early enough that he could then spend eons doing other work, Martin is now on a race with death to finish this one series before perishing himself--and he has obviously given up on doing so. It has now been twenty years. He isn't going to finish. He is a colossal obese man of geriatric age.

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>>55334152
>All fantasy should be communist propaganda
Mieville should be beaten to death with a hammer in front of his mother. It wouldn't be a crime, it would be justice.

test

>>55311623
For a moment I thought Sam and George were the same person.

>>55338654
>>55338768
>GRRM isn't the first fantasy author to rival tolkien in popularity, at least for a short period of time
>No, there isn't
i think i have struck a nerve, dear friends.

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Can't you simply enjoy reading both of them? It's all about having a good time, ultimately.

>>55326440
I get what you're trying to say, and I don't think that's even coming from a bad place, but I think it's neither here nor there. You're right that escapism isn't, and shouldn't be considered just some sort of act of desperation, but I don't think GRRM's trying to say that either.

>>55338816
>Mieville should be beaten to death with a hammer in front of his mother. It wouldn't be a crime, it would be justice.
Is that what you got from that quotation? I think your reading comprehension needs a little work, anon. Mieville does have strong commie leanings himself, but you'd never be able to tell that from the quoted passage, and most of the authors he references go in other directions entirely. The only commonality between Mieville, Peake, Bulgakov, et al is that they are, as he explicitly says, they are SUBVERSIVE. As opposed to Tolkien, whom he sees as treating the reader with kid gloves.

Now, I don't totally agree with that. Tolkien was, after all, writing for his kids first and foremost, and using kid gloves on kids only makes sense. He also spent most of his time playing with myths and mythic forms (which are, by their very nature, familiar) and that drives a lot of what Tolkien does. So I think Mieville's criticism of Tolkien as a boil that needs to be lanced is a bit harsh.

>>55311760

Tolkien 'Rather liked' the heroic fantasy of Robert E. Howard's Conan by one account. So I do not think he would dislike GRRM on the basis of it not being high fantasy, or the brutalness of the world, as REH delved into cannibalism, human sacrifice, child slavery, etc. GRRM just like REH, sort of falls into his own sub genre, and with GRRM that is cynical fantasy, not even grimdark, just cynical of human nature a touch.

>>55338991
It's pretty clear he is aware of Mieville's leaning prior to reading that comment given his hostility towards the author in general.

>>55338936
You lost the argument decisively and one-sidedly. This is not about Tolkien, it is about Martin, and why he cannot ever be considered a great author--it is because he simply does not care about his own damned work. He doesn't even see it as his great work, he sees it as something to pay for football tickets and hoagies.

I look forward to seeing Brandon Sanderson or whoever finish ASOIAF after Martin chokes to death on an olive pit so that he can turn it into a Mormon apologetic or something, THAT will be hilarious.

Was this thread made by a mod? That's the only plausible explanation for why it hasn't been deleted while multiple other threads on the same subject have been deleted.
https://boards.fireden.net/tg/search/text/%22tax%20policy%22/type/op/
Either it's off topic or it's on topic.

>>55339371
>>55338991
While I am of course aware of Mieville's leanings, nobody except a Communist would ever use a phrase like "small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos."

This implies an opposition to Hierarchy, which is implicitly Leftist, the idea that anyone who supports the status quo or hierarchy is a "reactionary" (a term invented by communists to lambast anyone who does not support their criminal ideology) and that anyone who doesn't want to be a fucking thief, which is all Communists are, is "small minded."

I could have drawn this conclusion with no prior knowledge of the man at all, and it would have instantly thrown me to this level of hatred for him, which is all that I feel for any communist or anarchist. The addition of him daring to criticize Tolkien only makes his treacherous attitude more incindiary.

>>55335764
That's a good point.

>>55338658
Its successor, the caloric theory of heat, wasn't too bad; the Carnot cycle was grounded in it.

More broadly, theories positing general causal factors underpinning human history haven't yielded anything much— in that regard, failure isn't limited to historical materialism. This is why I have relatively little patience with /pol/-ish arguments that rely on transposing aspects of some previous era onto contemporary events, or presume that history furnishes us with some clear rules about how human societies operate, or rely on strong assertions about historical counterfactuals.

>>55339625
Or, you know, they want to confine this into one thread. Mods eliminate threads for reasons other than being off topic.

>>55311623
How many times are we going to discuss this topic before we get tired of stating the same arguments over and over?

>>55340227
Once everyone gets tired of GRRM and goes back to Moorcock's Epic Pooh. Mentions of Mieville in this thread are a start.

>>55339570
>You lost the argument decisively and one-sidedly.
we'll take your word for it, kek.

> it is about Martin, and why he cannot ever be considered a great author--it is because he simply does not care about his own damned work.
funny, i am under the impression that the opposite is true: that he tries too hard to get it right and not mess it up in the end.

>I look forward to seeing Brandon Sanderson or whoever finish ASOIAF after Martin chokes to death on an olive pit so that he can turn it into a Mormon apologetic or something, THAT will be hilarious.
t. cant stand the thought of another star next to Tolkien

>>55340227
have you ever been to a D&D edition war thread?

>>55339650
>nobody except a Communist would ever use a phrase like "small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos."
That's ridiculous. I hear anarchists and libertarians saying things like that all the time. You're talking about politics like it's some kind of single-axis dichotomy...

>this level of hatred for him, which is all that I feel for any communist or anarchist
confirmed

>>55316923
>implying His Dark Materials isn't edgy reactionary shit

>>55322142
God, this is such a weak attempt at an argument.