I'm looking around for some eastern melee weapons for inspiration

le epik katana xd

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>>55293643
>Glorious nippon steel folded 1000000 times cut through flesh like silk

>>55293643
Define "some eastern melee weapons".
Because a fucking bardiche is an "eastern melee weapon", just like katana and bumerang are.

Grab the Palladium book "The Compendium of Weapons, Armor & Castles" for like a billion different weapons from everywhere,

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>>55293643
These are not swords, they're maces. And they're meant to be used in dual-wielding.

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>>55293643
Here you go anon, a kris, some south east Asian dagger I believe.

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Monk Spade

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The Ram-Dao is pretty cool

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>>55293643
pick related is a training weapon as opposed to something that would have actually been used though

Chain whips are pretty fucking cool.

https://youtu.be/TOWUe1z3GsA

Northern Chinese kung-fu has a set that uses one really long whip, too.

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>>55293643
Boom. These >>55293797 are also cool. The Chinese had a plethora of weapons, both utilitarian and specialized. They were pretty eclectic.

>>55294286
I'm convinced of the superiority of the ji.

You mass produce the two different head types and ship them out in bulk to your armies, if a soldier damages or dull one piece, replace it and send the old one back to be reforged. Also ship out lots of 3, 6 and 9 (maybe 12?) foot poles, for hand weapon with shield (3ft), long weapon with shield (6ft) or pole weapon/pike with 9-12 ft ones. If the pole gets damaged, cut it down to the next smaller size, hell, could ship them with the sizes marked.

This way you are mass producing decent quality, easy to use, easy to make, easy to service weapons solving many logistics issues for your army.

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>>55293818
Seconding

>>55293643
I like the jiang.

otherwise southeast asia has a lot of cool swords and weapons in general
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword#Southeast_Asia

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>>55293643

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>>55295901

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>>55295919

>>55293643
a karambit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pfDLbBM0NQ

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>>55295949

>>55295027
japanese weapons are gay

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>>55295958

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>>55295994

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>>55296014

>>55293643
All melee weapons are just variations of blade-on-stick or lump-on-stick. Coming up with new ones is easy. Just play with the shape a little.

>>55294555
That's basically what happened too. Also, my nigga.

>>55295994
what dis

>>55295919
That actually looks like a pretty good force-multiplying tactic.

>>55293643
See the two guys in pic related? See the yellow guy holding the big stick? That's a kanabo, which is moonspeak for "big fucking wood or metal stick, covered in spikes, and soon embedded in your skull." And as can be seen from the picture, it is being used to stop a silly katana-carrying Griffith cosplayer.

>>55296257
Okay, seriously - why is it not letting me upload the image. Have a link instead.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kZXPa4d6J44/maxresdefault.jpg

>>55296257
I already know which picture you were going to post.

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Chinese sleeve dart

>>55293758
I don't know anything about swords, but you guys seem like you do. What's the deal with the bendy Aladdin daggers like this? More likely to cause a mortal wound?

>>55296413
They can cause jagged wounds, yes. Think about how painful it is to be cut by a bread knife or steak knife. Now make it a larger wound, and drawn across an entire limb, or a torso. Now imagine trying to sew that up with all those nasty uneven skin flaps and cut depths.

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Isn't there some heavier/longer version of the Naginata for use from horseback? Chinese?

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>>55296413
Often it was a choice of aesthetics as the Kris, similar to the Sudanese Kujang or the Indian Katar, suggested status, magical powers, or wealth.

>>55295978
no you

>>55296465
the Horsechopper? Yeah. It's called a Guandao I think, named for the halberd used by Guan Yu, the god of war.

>>55296611
i need a safe space

>>55296306
what the fuck is this? this looks fucking cool

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>Urumi
You have to be a BAMF to wield this bitch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMAsCuDFSUI

>>55297650
so its pretty much the chain gun of swords, since it has spin up time

>>55294286
I always thought the Fangtian ji looked cool. How functional was it?

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>>55293736
essentially medieval riot batons

>>55293678
underrated 100 fold

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>>55293643

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>>55298717
and the moon runes explained

>>55298724
>tfw your king is also a badass blacksmith

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>>55293643
nip clubs are pretty cool

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>Not posting a Double Voulge

*Autistic Grunting from Wei Yan*

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>>55298740
>tfw you king, who is also a badass blacksmith, slays 100 foes with the very sword he forged

>>55298984
If what happened to Wei Yan happened to me, I too would probably be reduced to autistic grunting until I got my revenge.

>>55297902
Very. Spear for stabbing and ranked fighting, crescent blades doubled as de-horsing hooks and could open shield walls. As well as you know, cutting people. Though they actually weren't always sharpened.

>>55296306
how does this work?

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>>55296257
>>55296272
Why don't you post actual historical cosplay instead of silly ASOIAF japanese take on the kanabo?

>>55296465
You wouldn't use something like a naginata on a horse though.

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>>55293643
Kagitsuki naginata, just a naginata with a bronze crossbar, but you can do much more with this than with a typical one.

arent kanabos garbage? i've never seen one used that hasnt broken on the first strike, even historical reproductions

>>55296086
When I look at the weapon it seems obvious. So versatile and perfect for mass production for outfitting armies of 10's of thousands that were supposed to exist.

>>55296225
It really was.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/03/mandarin-duck-formation-p1.html
>In reality, the Mandarin Duck Formation was very simple and straightforward and did not require a high level of martial art skills nor complex maneuvers to be effective (Qi's army was comprised of peasants and miners, most of whom were illiterate). While Mandarin Duck Formation was designed for small engagements, it could be used in large scale battles numbering thousands of troops as well.

>>55296186
>http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2017/01/chong-di-tie-tou-che-Ming-bulldozer.html
>it is a four-wheeled wagon with an iron plough mounted at the front — essentially, a human-powered medieval bulldozer.
>A V-shaped iron plough is mounted at the front of the wagon. Each wing of the plough is three chi and six cun wide, and comes with several sharp blades to deter enemy assault. The wagon also has two wooden fences on both sides in addition to a passenger/cargo compartment mounted directly above its rear wheels, protected by wooden parapets on four sides.
>one primary purpose in mind — to spearhead assault against enemy formation or encampment, using its heavy frontal armour to protect other troops from enemy arrows, firearms and even small cannons, as well as clearing various obstacles and barricades such as caltrops, abatises and cheval de frise.
>Given the sorry state of Ming military during its twilight years, it was most likely that this wagon never saw actual deployment.
It is simply so... dwarven. It would be perfect to breach their pike formations during tunnel warfare.

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>>55293643
It's hard to overstate the chaos and underfunding of the Sino-Japanese War.

We had a Mad Jack in the West, they had whole regiments of melee soldiers and an enemy way too prone to fight in close quarters.

>>55299694
Just make it completely out of iron and be an oni.

>>55295919
Why not give tridents to all the spearmen?

>>55296032
Anyone got any sword viagra?

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>>55293643
In my opinion, this is probably the best-looking curved sword of all time.

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And the fine-looking late Han dynasty ring-pommel sword with awesome bronze fittings.

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Da dao ("big sword") glaives. The guandao (as used by Guan Yu) is one of these.

>>55298724
>Made in China

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>>55293643
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/ottoatm/Inspiration/chineseweapons.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/93/6d/85/936d85d6f5178da9a965ccbc6e47890d--chinese-weapon-chinese-swords.jpg

http://www.totalmartialartsupplies.com/content/images/thumbs/0001476_pure-tang-dynasty-straight-sword.jpeg

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1doXsIXXXXXaQXFXXq6xXFXXX1/Handmade-Han-Dynasty-Sword-Carbon-Steel-Chi-Bi-Han-Jian-Sharp-Chinese-sword.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b7/bf/cf/b7bfcf0437c0f9f87e12809ad9312036--martial-arts-weapons.jpg

http://mandarinmansion.com/articles/spears-qing/spears.png

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/22/59/e1225924d8316a66b81bfb17d5ea5043.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/96/a3/9596a39f77fa4f5190513b2321dd509b.jpg

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0216/6074/products/supersize187.jpeg?v=1362066285

http://www.shenyun.com/data/image/original/2016/08/27/7d420e2b2939762031eed0447a9be19f.jpg

http://www.designious.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/680x400/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/e/designious-chinese-weapons-vector-pack-1_small.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/%E6%A2%A8%E8%8A%B1%E9%8E%97.jpg/141px-%E6%A2%A8%E8%8A%B1%E9%8E%97.jpg

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>>55300434
Hm, normally when I see the term dadao used, it means something more along the lines of this.

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Or like this.

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>>55300531
That's a later form - in the book where the da dao chart is, there are pictures from the 1930s with dudes carrying da daos that look like the ones in your pic.

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We talking Kanabo in here?

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WHERE MUH KUSARIGAMA AT

THEY'RE SO WEEB AND SO COOL AND THEY RANGE FROM RETARDED AND EDGELORD TO HELLA CUTE

KUSARIGAMAAAAAAA

>>55300609
Kanabo is not as brutal-looking as the Chinese Wolf-teeth mace

>>55300636
Reminder that the kama is used as a tool, not a weapon.

>>55300549
>>55300531

"dao" is essentially "curved blade", then a pre-fix is added, suggests different properties, though usage changes a bit over the centuries and it gets a bit confusing.

"dadao" is just kind of a larger version in one way or another. If "dao" was like our "sword"*, "dadao" would be "greatsword" which we understand is bigger but exact properties is unclear.

If that makes sense.

*"dao" seems specific to curved swords, a straight blade would be "jian" I believe. So it isn't even exactly like "sword" in English as it has the curved specification.

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>>55296465
webm related

>>55299656
>You wouldn't use something like a naginata on a horse though.
git gud scrub

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>>55300681
The kama was, but there were fighting variants made by actual swordsmiths (rather than your local blacksmith) that were optimized as weapons.

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Burmese dha

"An ivory hilted Burmese dah or commonly, dha. It is fitted with a high quality but later associated blade, probably from the Shan region. The blade of typical profile, narrow at the base and widening near the tip. It has a precisely ground wide fuller on each side that is accentuated by a thin engraved line. The spine of the blade is ridged, with a stepped section near the tip, a rather rare feature on these.

The most spectacular part of this dha is of course the handle. It's made of a single piece of ivory, finely cut with a kneeling figure in its base, and scrolling vines all-around. On the back of the kneeling figure stands yet another figure, situated in the center of the grip, completely cut loose on all sides. The figure holds a club of some sorts, its face is as finely articulated as the kneeling figure. According to a seasoned collector in this field, the design of the silver sleeve shows it was made for a native official and was not commissioned by the British East India Company."

"A fascinating little monograph is written on the subject, published in 1901, by Pratt. According to Pratt, the only towns in 1901 that still worked ivory were Mawlamyine and Pyinmana in present-day Myanmar. Only one carver was active in Pyinmana, and by far the best work was done in the coastal city of Mawlamyine where in 1901 three families were still active in the trade.2 Interesting, the same survey states that these artifacts were always made on order, never in anticipation of demand.

Pratt continues to describe how some of the ivory was bought from Shan traders or from working elephants that had died a natural death or broke a tusk.3 The total ivory carving business in Mwlamyine in 1901 made use of only 8-12 pairs of tusks.

Interestingly, he mentions the smaller tools used around this time are pieces of umbrella ribs that they sharpen on a stone to turn then into little chisels."

>>55295027
Hold on, were bladed fans actually a thing? I always though it was just a dumb cartoon/comic/anime trope supposed to look cool

>>55300822
Okay, I stared at this for a while then realized; it's an unstrung bow, right? One of those crazy laminated hornbows?

>>55300878
No, they were really a thing. You couldn't carry swords into court, but a fan was a requirement.

>>55300903
That is correct. It's inverted when unstrung, by the way, so the string would pull the arms out towards the left in this picture.

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>>55300903
Yeah it's a bow. An Indian "kaman".

>>55300878
>Bladed fans
Not really.

There were sturdier fans with iron or brass ribs that could be used as an improvised weapon. There were objects that looked like fans that concealed knives. There were weapons that looked like a closed fan but were actually clubs that looked like fans.

But ninja fans that cuts you up? No.

Still, they were pretty effective low-radar weapons considering how prevalent different kinds of fans were in Japan at the time.

>>55301130
Style: 8/10
Usefulness: -5/10

>>55299606
ever shot rubber bands?

>>55296465
That's a Falcata, a sword/axe used on horseback

>>55296972
Mostly it's just a tube with a spring mechanism with a release. Load the dart - most likely poisoned - conceal it, and fire from close range. This one just has a custom body made in line with modern firearms.

>>55296186
Medieval Chinese Bulldozer (human powered)

>>55300247
Trident is too short and mainly used to protect other troops should someone get pass the spear point.

>>55295919
>>55296225
>>55299930
How does it exactly multiply force? Not a miliary guy, not even an armchair military guy and all I can see is a bunch of people that can be easily flanked.
What am I missing?

>>55300878
that picture has some good examples alongside weapons that are only a thing in hollywood like the nun-chuks

>>55301110
>Imagine trying to block a hit with that or getting the blade caught on something and breaking your fucking wrist.

>>55304183
I never understood why Indian weapons are so fucking weird. Some of them evolved from tools, but those are usually the LESS weird ones.

>>55304205
>I never understood why Indian weapons are so fucking weird.
My guess is that because a lot of them are designed as ceremonial objects rather than tools.

>>55304041
>How does it exactly multiply force? Not a miliary guy, not even an armchair military guy and all I can see is a bunch of people that can be easily flanked. What am I missing?
The formation is designed for fighting in relatively narrow places that are hard for larger formation to move around (i.e. alleyway, narrow mountain trails etc)

It is actually very hard to ambush/flank a small unit like that, because smaller unit has higher situational awareness (there are eleven pairs of eyes to check the surroundings, and every troop needs only to keep track of ten other comrades).

Secondly, the squad tend not to operate alone. So even if one squad get ambushed, other squads can come to their aid quickly. Having several squads working together also allows them to perform more complex maneuver such as overwatch & leapfrogging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounding_overwatch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnWfj70MaKk
Youtube video related.

The squad was also used to perform exactly the same tactics as video related. Except instead of flashbangs, SMGs and radios, they just hack any ambusher in the room to pieces, and scream really loudly after confirming the room is clear.

>>55305949
What about going directly on their back? After all, the formation has a very clearly designed front and it would take time to switch the shield guys on the back.
I've already read they've also had a firearm version, but this one has zero ranged capacity and only two shields for so many men, so they can be an easy prey for archers and firearms.
Am I missing something? It really looks vulnerable to me, kind of how phallax is vulnerable for attacks other than frontal one.

>>55306110
And most importantly I still don't understand how it multiplies force. I'm sincere here, not trolling or baiting. I just don't get it.

>>55304183
>>55304205
>>55304265
At least it got a kickass name: BITCHwa.

The handle is probably designed like that so you can grab a buckler with your dagger hand, thus you don't HAD to block a hit with dagger blade.

It is similar to Highlander's dirk & targe in one hand. However unlike Scottish targe, Indian buckler is center gripped. You can punch people with the buckler in addition to BITCHstab them with BITCHwa.

>>55306110
Generally speaking, all combat formations are designed with engaging enemy at the front in mind, so the rear will always be more vulnerable than the front.

(Except porcupine-type formation, but this formation is only useful if your enemy completely surround you and attack you from all sides simultaneously)

In case of the Chinese Mandarin Duck squad, since multiple squads usually work in tandem, you can rely on other squads to look out for you.

(Not to mention rear attack is even harder to pull off than flank attack)

You should reread the wikipedia article on overwatch tactic. It is there to prevent this sort of thing happening in the first place - there will always be (at least) a squad on the lookout at a secure position while other squads advance.

Also, the last two guys are armed with trident instead of longer pike for this reason. Trident is shorter, nimbler and more versatile than pike, so they are not completely helpless even if attacked from behind.

>>55306110
>but this one has zero ranged capacity
No, almost everyone has bow & arrow, and the trident guys got rocket.

>only two shields for so many men, so they can be an easy prey for archers and firearms
No, this is a small unit tactic designed to engage other small unit, it is not designed to survive a "shower of arrows" type attack in the open.

Keep in mind that a battlefield that WARRANTS the deployment of this kind of small counter-ambush specialist squad will be full of places to HIDE and TAKE COVER. Arrow shower will be unlikely to be of any use in this kind of battlefield.

>>55306123
>>55306110
(In case you are wondering what will happen if one squad is forced to operate alone, they can split into two five-man teams or four three-man teams to watch for each other's back)

> It really looks vulnerable to me, kind of how phallax is vulnerable for attacks other than frontal one.
A phalanx is a large body of troops, so it has low situational awareness compared to small squad. Most troops will be surrounded by other friendly troops (and thus can only see them), and troops at the flank/rear do not have the means to relay warning to the officer even if they see enemy coming.

If the enemy come hitting a phalanx from the rear, the front rank won't be immediately aware of/react to what's happening, all they can see is their comrades suddenly panic.

OTOH, a small squad will be aware of exactly what hit them, and respond accordingly and quickly. Multiple squads working together can also take the advantage of the overlapping field of vision to spot ambushers and pinpoint the direction where the attack come from.


>multiplies force
Their weapon loadout allows them to hold off much larger and better equipped opponent as long as they occupy a favorable position.

Given the terrain they usually fought in, "favorable position" really isn't hard to come by.

>>55306706
>>55306995
>>55307633
Many, many thanks for making it clear and transparent.
I've simply made a series of wrong assumptions and that's why it didn't really worked out in my head, especially the fact such unit would have to operate alone and against much larger forces than themselves.
So to make it clear in the end - the formation is something like an early modern equivalent of a modern section in an army, with three-four sections making a platoon working together and covering each other... right?

>>55293643
nagamaki

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One of my party is a Mongol-type take on a barbarian who uses a Kanabo instead of a Greataxe. Number one skelly-smasher

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>>55304183
>blocking a hit with a dagger
It's designed to let you hold on to the knife while doing things like grappling, similar to the knuckleduster knives of World War 1.

As far as Indian weapons go, they're pretty practical.

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>>55300531
>>55300549
The Ming Dadao was essentially a Yan Yue/Guan Dao.

>>55308807
They look anything, but practical.
Flaming blades, anyone?

>>55300013
To be fair, much of china is either mountains or cities. In both cases figthing tends to be a very short ranged affair.

there is literally no reason for a single edged weapon to be straight

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>>55312344

Straight-edges usually are single though.

>>55300013
It's funny because those melee regiments existed purely because the Japanese banzai charge would routinely shatter Chinese opposition. Chinese forces would often almost immeidately rout once the Japanese got close which meant they could take positions with relatively light casualties and keep momentum of advance. As it turns out, people have a pretty strong aversion to getting spitted by some screaming crazy nip with a spear when they don't feel like they have a way to stop them. So they started training and equipping troops with the daodao so they could have an answer to the Japanese bayonet charge. It was surprisingly effective.

Unfortunately for the Japanese they tried to utilize their banzai charges against the Americans who did not break when confronted with the charge; although in several cases they were overwhelmed and put to flight. It was generally seen as a last resort against the Americans because of their much higher concentrations of automatic weaponry.

>>55293736
Club two peasants once

Club one peasant twice

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>>55312994

>>55308024
It was not nearly as sophisticated as modern army organization, but yhe underlying concept is the same.

Also, what I previously covered (several squads working with each other) is for counter-terrorism type operation. For "normal" large scale pitch battle, many squads would form into larger regiments and fought as one unit.

>>55312344
Scottish backsword will beg to differ.

>>55314256
why? because it has a basket hilt? that would be much better on a single edged sword.

>>55314429
Because it is a straight single-edged sword?

>>55314571
and? what makes it not stupid? if a sword is straight then i can gain the benefits of having two edges. a single edged blade only stands out if it's curved, making it better at slashing

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>>55314915
No,anon. Backsword isn't stupid, you are.

Straight edge is perfectly fine at chopping/slashing. You only want the curve if you want to draw cut/slicing.

And single edge straight sword can have a thicker spine, so tougher than double-edge sword.

Single-edge straight sword also has a more acute cutting edge for the same blade thickness, so it has a more effective wedge and better at getting the sharp bit into the soft flesh of your enemy.

Pic related.

>>55293736
>>55298468
>>55312810
They are actually originally intended as anti-armor weapon, a.l.a something we group together with mace, warhammer and poleaxe.

What it lacks in concentrated mass (i.e. mace head), it more than makes up for it with faster swings, better balance, more reach, and the ability to thrust.

>>55312344
Anon, have you ever heard the term "technical difficulties"?

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>>55293643
have a chain whip instead

>>55304171
nunchaku are basically a short-handled variant on the two-section staff, originally employed by civilian police in Okinawa for non-lethal force to subdue criminals resisting arrest. it wasn't used as a bludgeoning tool/shield like a tonfa, but more like a disorienting tool, aimed at limb joints and the temple.

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>>55312738
I thought it was severe underfunding and absolute amounts of available manpower. Thank you for enlighetning me anon. Not being ironic.

Obscure hindu weapon/shield as thanks.

>>55318015
>severe underfunding
That was one of the reasons too, among others.

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>>55308024
>>55296225
>>55305949
>>55306110
>>55306706
>>55307633
Original poster here.

In another forum of the internet where I looked about it once, one person summarized this as an entire skirmisher unit fighting another skirmisher-like ambushers, the wokou (japanese/multinational pirates).

Heavy resistance and elite infantry/cavarly/anything really, wasn't expect at most times, as well as set field battles.

A throughout explanation requires the links below:
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/10/tang-shun-zhis-yuan-yang-zhen-p1.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/03/mandarin-duck-formation-p1.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/03/mandarin-duck-formation-p2.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/03/mandarin-duck-formation-p3.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.my/2015/10/mandarin-duck-formation-p4.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.my/2015/11/mandarin-duck-formation-p5.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.my/2015/11/mandarin-duck-formation-p6.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2016/03/xu-guang-qi-victorious-troops-p3-1.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/chinese-infantry-tactics-p2.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2016/08/shield-formation-of-luo-gong-chen-p1.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/11/shield-formation-of-luo-gong-chen-p2.html
This formation, with its many iterations, variants and evolution, is no less interesting to me than the roman legions themselves. Also suggest checking the war wheelbarrows.

>>55305949
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2017/05/zhao-shi-zhens-multipurpose-shield.html
This may be of interest to you.

>>55293719
silk is hard to cut dude

>>55300800
That is a sexy-looking blade.

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>>55318144

>>55294286

I'll take the Glaive-Guisarme-Fangtian-ji

>>55318015
It's a combination of few reasons, really. Let's list KMT problems to make things clear:
>Warlordism
The "central" government was nothing more than the strongest clique on the Chinese landscape. And sizable part of KMT "opening" land was nothing more than warlord lands allied with KMT or "allied" with it. THEN there were also warlords outside real and nominal KMT jurisdiction. So while on paper KMT had, say, 10 divisions in region X, in reality it had 1 "real" division, 2 divisions of semi-loyal militia, 5 divisions of semi-loyal warlord troops AND 2 divisions of utterly disloyal warlord militia.
>Lack of war material
Due to plethora of reasons, KMT was utterly unable to provide weapons for their troops, even those loyal ones, before the war started. Then things only went downhill from there. There were horrible logistic issues (barely any railway in China, not to mention serious roads and cars), small production base (and a lot of guns being made by literal village blacksmiths or worse) [Check "Chinese mystery pistol" by yourself to get the picture]), corruption (especially in allied-warlord areas) and MASSIVE trust issues, since Jiang Jieshi (or Chang-Kai Shek) was properly paranoid toward all sort of warlords he had to work with or face another civil war
>Low morale
Not counting the most loyal troops, made by mix of volounteers and concripts, everyone else was conscripted, often forcefully. Lack of supplies often meant conscripts were dying like flies (coruption, remember?) out of starvation before even finishing most basic training. People actively didn't want to be in the army. Then comes the standards of training, officer cadre and so on and forth. On the top of that, again massive and justified trust issues

TBC

>>55318455
cont.
>KMT military incompentence
Let's face it. Jiang Jieshi wasn't a good commander. He WAS NOT a bad one, too. But on the scale from 1 to 10, he was a 4: competent enough to manage, not good enough to call him average. And he obsessively tried to control everything, so even if he had competent commanders on field (which was rare), they were often red-taped into inaction. Then comes the problem with disloyal warlord armies, who eagerly run away on any given chance and disappear in the countryside, looting it on KMT account. And general lack of proper training and tactics all over the board. Jiang was also eager to throw his best troops into unwinnable fights early on to show IJA they shall not pass. It didn't work out
>Absurd Japanese superiority
Despite Japan being itself in shit position and having outdated gear itself, all they really needed in China was unit cohension, loyality and proper communication. And having air force on their own. And then seizing all ports, gaining both good resupply points and cutting out KMT from outside supplies, making shit material situation hit rock-bottom.

Once the war started, all bets were basically off and in opening three months KMT lost production base, most of strategic cities, completely lost control of the countryside and most importantly, lost the most trained and well-equipped troops.

HOWEVER, all things considered, KMT fighting the war for fucking 8 years and surviving all that shit is the same thing as the "mystery pistols": we are giving those guys all kind of shit for being incompetent, but they still did manage and still things mostly worked out for them.

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>>55293736
Europeans had something similar called the longsword that was pointed at the end to slide in between the plates of the enemy's armor when you had the chance. Claymores are essentially huge two-handed maces with a thrusting point.

The Panzerstecher was an even more optimized variant of this designed to punch through plate armor with its triangular point.

Perhaps the most infamous is the Estoc, which eschewed edges entirely in favor of being a perfect thrusting weapon (that you could use like a giant two-handed mace if you wanted).

>yfw Europe wins the melee weapon arms race

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I really like the idea of a sword on a stick. Not a spear or a pike, mind you, but an actual small sword.

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>>55299656
Naginatas are katanas on sticks. Folded one million times and extended two meters.

>>55300878
>Bladed
No. But made of metal, yes. Used like a club. Essentially a handbag, except solid metal.

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>>55318528
A naginata blade is 15"
A uchigatana blade from the 16th century is about 25"
A tachi from the same period would be about 30"

>>55318631
Katana means sword.

Are you implying that the blade of a naginata is not a sword?

You should commit sudoku for your error, it's the only way to get past this shamefur dispray.

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>>55318511
>Europeans had something similar called the longsword that was pointed at the end to slide in between the plates of the enemy's armor

Longswords do often have a decent thrusting point (how much they're intended to be used against armoured opponents varies from sword to sword, thrusting can work nicely against the unarmoured too), but they also have sharpened edge,s and a cross-sectional geometry that's very, very different from those Chinese batons. The claymore, assuming we're talking about the late renaissance Highland greatsword, would be even further from these maces than the average longsword, as they tend towards (almost exclusively?) wide and flat cross-sections, as opposed to the baton here that are about are comparatively extremely narrow and very thick, ie more or less round/quadratic/some such.

The panzerstecher might have been able to pierce some armour, but getting through plate, or even decent mail, would probably tend to require more than mere human strength being put behind it. Especially for a single handed sword.

As for the estoc, it'd seem many retain a bit of an edge. "As cutting is not the real forte of this type, you shape the sharpness so that it can do some limited cutting of exposed areas, but it is used really mostly for thrusting." http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7292&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Being balanced as swords they'd make for rather poor maces, edges or not. In a pinch you can turn it around, but the grip then is far from ideal, and it'll have to be a very stiff blade indeed for it not to be somewhat bothersome in its floppiness that way (the claymore, with its wide and flat blade, would be even worse to hold and flop around like the ears of an overexcited bloodhound). With both estoc and the claymore the notion that they'd make good maces is I suspect just the old myth of the absurdly heavy and barely sharp medieval sword still haunting us.

>>55318704
>I said all these things but have never used a longsword so I'm unaware of how the balance on most is heavy to the point, designed to maximize force on the swing
Cool story, bro.

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>>55318631
Nagainata changed a good deal over the years, with earlier ones being considerably longer than more modern examples. No single length will be very representative.

>>55318676
刀 can mean sword (though there seems to be hints of single edged and curved in there, 剣 covering the straight and double edged better, I'd guess corresponding to dao and jian in Chinese). But if you mean swords in general then you're better off reading it as tô. Reading it as katana for such purpose would be to go out on the far colloquial end of the spectrum.

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>>55318676
and Ken can mean sword (剣), authority (権), a prefecture of Japan (県), economising (倹). How about you stop backpedalling and admit you're wrong?

>>55318511
>Claymores are essentially huge two-handed maces with a thrusting point.
No they aren't, it's a modern change of words but claymore was referring to the typical scottish one-handed basket hilted broadsword.
http://www.encasedinsteel.co.uk/2015/02/06/what-is-a-claymore/

>>55318676
Katana means "something able to cut", you stupid shit.

Are you implying it's another time when English retarded classification of cold steel weapons is at play?

>>55318966
>self-owning this hard
Exactly as planned.

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>>55319483

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>>55312994

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>>55318144
How can one pikeman be so smug?
You can see how pissed the two virgin pikemen look with their normal pikes.

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>>55320109

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>>55320203
These are ornamental of course

>>55300711
i always translate "dao" by saber and "jian" by sword

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>>55300711
>*"dao" seems specific to curved swords, a straight blade would be "jian" I believe.

Well, there's also the zhibeidao. Perhaps counting edges works better than curvature.

As for the polearms, the question is if we see a situation where dadao has changed meaning over time (in the specifics it refers to, not the plain translation of "big sword"), maybe with the stricter definition of dadao to the 19th-20th century long hilt greatsword being a convention of modern collectors, or if perhaps there's simply a bit of confusion going on as people saw a dadao, mostly noticed the long hilt, and then from that erroneously applied it to polearms as the Chinese telegraph got going.

>>55320503
The image this anon posted seems to be a Han Dynasty Huanshoudao, which remained the most common sword type from Han to Song Dynasty.

In narrower context, Zhibeidao refers only to post-Mongol straight dao. Before the Mongol conquest, there was only straight dao, so there's no need to derive a new name to distinguish straight dao and curved dao.

>As for the polearms, the question is if we see a situation where dadao has changed meaning over time
"Dadao" means "great dao" and is actually an incredibly generic and loose term.

Basically, you can call any sufficiently large/menacing, vaguely dao-like weapon dadao. A guandao is just as much a dadao as the chopping sword used in WWII.

If you want to be more specific, a guandao is called Chunqiu Dadao (Spring and Autumn dadao), while the sword used during Sino-Japanese war is called Kangzhan Dadao (Resistance war dadao), or very rarely Guitou Dadao (Demon head dadao).

>>55318514
European have the Swedish Svärdstav/Swordstaff, which is a literal sword-on-a-stick.

>>55318144
So how is this formation like a duck in any way?

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>>55318511
Pic related.

The Chinese truncheon is somewhat similar to Panzerstecher/Estoc in that both are sword-like objects meant to defeat armor. But that's about the only similarity between the two.

Panzerstecher and Estoc are used mainly to thrust and punch through weak spots of the armor, while Chinese truncheon is used to hit and inflict blunt trauma through armor. Even its thrust is intended to inflict blunt trauma.

It is an alternate take on mace/warhammer.

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>>55320995
It is named after Mandarin Duck, which love to swim in pairs (the squad is basically a pair of identical five-man team).

>>55303666
Dartgun of Satan!

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>>55320995
I suppose it's because the name sounds glorious. Chink naming is kinda weird, I don't get it sometimes.

>>55323991
Considering almost all Chinese formation names make sense if you understand the context, it has nothing to do with being fancy. I mena it does SOUND fancy, but the name is kind of like you have "pincer movement" alongside with "double envelopment"

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>>55300636
Chain weapons were pretty popular and so were variants of the kama.

It was really more of "why not both" scenario that led to this combination of chocolate and peanut butter, so to speak.

>>55324141
>>55323991
>>55321245
>>55320995
It's because ducks are rapists and that's what'll happen to you if you go against an army using the Duck Formation.

>>55320503
>>55320919

I've always seen/understood "dao" as a a curved blade. This is the first time I've seen a straight one. Could be "single blade" rather than "curved" while "jian" is "double blade".

>>55319923
I was only pretending to be retarded-

NANI?

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>>55300711
>>55320503
>>55327936
Dao is just a catchall term for single edged weapon.

http://mandarinmansion.com/chinese-saber-typology

http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/06/swords-and-sabres-of-ming-dynasty.html

>>55328272

Maybe that is my fault. "Sabre" to me is a curved blade (as well as single-edged).

>>55328272
WTF is that orky contraption??

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>>55329677
It's just like a pair of bolas, just uses a claw shape rather than a bola shape.

Now if you want to see a real orky contraption, hold my rice wine.

"One of the craziest weapon developed by Ming Dynasty firearm inventor Zhao Shi Zhen (趙士楨), Xun Lei Chong (迅雷銃, lit. 'Quick thunder gun') is a five barrel matchlock gun that also incorporates a cotton-padded leather gun shield, an axe that doubles as musket rest, and a spear that doubles as flare gun.

This weapon allows its shooter to discharge five shots in quick succession by rotating the barrels manually, then quickly dissemble the weapon and use the axe and spear for melee combat. It slow reload time can supposedly be mitigated by directly swapping out spent barrels with pre-loaded spares. Due to its heavy weight, it is usually handled by a two-man team."

>>55330274
>feral world PDF heavy weapons team defends against traitor White Scars, M31

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So many funky blades-onna-stick that Gary Gygax must be creaming himself in whatever outer plane he's on.

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>>55320503
>>55320919
>>55327936
Pic related.

To clarify further, the sword at the top is a Han Dynasty Huanshoudao, while the sword at the bottom is a Ming or Qing Dynasty Zhibeidao with a rounded tip and a little bit of false edge.

They are both straight dao/single-edged straight sword, but other than that there's not much in common.

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Some Tang dynasty blades.

>>55327936
It's not about blades, but number of edges. So you are spot-on with your guess.

>>55318752
What, no.
Point of balance for most type XII to XVIII swords are about a hand to a hand-and-a-half's width from the crossguard.
-A different anon

>>55330274
That...is actually quite orky. You light up the fucker with the flare gun, then blast him with five musket shots, then stab/chop him to pieces for good measure.

Does it explode half the time?

>>55306178
You just made my fucking day anon.

>>55293643
So are Chinese fucking Orks?
>crazy ass Dakka weapons
>reproduce fast
>got in tons of fights with themselves
>will eat anything

>>55318514
I've made a legendary creature for one of my campaigns who uses one of these that extends in a magical fashion.

/tg/, what kind of mechanics would you use for this kind of weapon if a PC ends up using/keeping it? I'm thinking attunement and having whoever uses it practice with it for a while before they become proficient.

>>55337526
> Their swords are pretty choppy.
> Looted...ahem, pirated stuffs that explode or break down.
> Love red color.

>>55338735
>mfw Chinese are orkiental

>>55300835
Long cat-ar is long?

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>Qiang Chong (鎗銃, lit. 'Gun-spear') is a type of heavy, (presumably) crew-served combination weapon. Despite its simple and straightforward name, the weapon is anything but simple. In fact, this monstrosity consists of a spear, a small double-barrelled gun, a foldable leather "umbrella shield", and twelve sword blades attached to the shield.

>Needless to say, this weapon is definitely one of the most impractical weapons ever designed. It has all the downsides of a Xun Lei Chong (迅雷銃), but none of its advantages. Not only Qiang Chong's foldable shield adds unnecessary complexity and cost compared to a simple gun shield, its twelve blades that add so much weight (the blades alone weigh fifteen pounds!) to the weapon actually serve no real purpose other than intimidation. On top of that, for such a heavy, complex and costly weapon, Qiang Chong's firepower can hardly compete with that of a San Yan Chong (三眼銃)!

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>>55293643
FRYING GUILLOTINE
Is hat on chain, has knives that come out so can use as small buzzsaw type thing, then place on enemies head, knices go inside hat, top comes off enemies' head.

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>>55338735

They also invented shootahs and rokits.

>>55296413
I was under the impression the kris was for ceremonial use.

>>55341360
Dat iz one mega choppa....

>>55296443
>>55296413
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTruKtn5VSE

>>55342877
>>55296443
>>55296413

https://youtu.be/BB6rillKnCE?t=2m22s

>>55293643
literally every mention of the katana here is just mention of nonexistent people praising the katana

like holy shit if anyone does think katanas are cool they're sure as shining fuck not going to breathe the slightest of it here, you guys have such an insane fixation on villifying anything you fear that a weeb might like

Anyone have that Indian weapon which is basically Illidan's blades? Saw some pics of it being used by instructors and damn do they jump good.

>>55344256
Weebs used to be much bigger about the katana, but on /tg/ we have a large group of people who actually know something about weapons.

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The gay dude from The Secret World had it. I am jelly.

>>55344453
What, in like 2005?
No one on this board ever fucking does that, it's a complete myth maintained by people complaining about it. It's some irrational boogeyman shit.

And so what if someone likes the katana
None of this shit matters it's a fantasy board

>>55344932
I know multiple people in person who go full autism on the katana, and it's more common on other websites.
Also, if you like the katana for its style or cultural relevance, that's fine. Just don't pretend it's an ancient japanese lightsaber folded over 9000 times.

>>55293643
Re: Japs
After the rise of the Samurai as a military class, the two most common weapons where the bow (a specialized long bow for horse back use) and the Naginata, a polearm designed for cutting and thrusting (and it's beautiful). The bow was used for mounted archery, while the naginata was a versatile infantry weapon and good for dealing with cavalry. From the 17th century onwards (after Japan's re-unification, and the peace that followed), the naginata became associated women. The leverage and reach it provides helped compensate for women's smaller stature and strength. These days, naginata clubs at school, if they exist, are dominated by girls. It's a good choice of weapon if you want a warrior women archetype.

During the late medieval period, the spear and musket became the dominate battlefield weapons. The spear was quicker than the naginata or other polearms, and work better in the massed infantry formations of the later medieval period. Officers and higher ranked samurai tended to use shorter spears, versus the foot soldiers (ashigaru) who used longer pikes.
The Japanese took to firearms like fish to water, after their introduction by Europeans. They never really developed canons or field artillery, but muskets become one of the primary ranged weapons due to their armour penetration (Japanese armour is really good at stopping arrows) and shock factor.

Swords started out straight like the Chinese style, but became long and curved during the early era of the samurai, to be used as sidearms for the mounted warriors. As the samurai moved to massed infantry warfare, sword became straighter and shorter, developing into the famous Katana. The straighter shape was better for stabbing at gaps in armour, and the shorter length made it more useful in close quarters where spears couldn't be used.
The fetishization of the Katana comes from after Japan modernized, mainly in pre-war Japan, and in the west, thanks the samurai films

>>55345198

All I'm saying is it deserved better than it got compared to the masterwork broadsword stats in pathfinder.

>>55337826
I have a character who has one, most of the time it functions as a glaive, but can become a short sword for transport or if you need your other hand free. Mechanically its not much different from just carrying two weapons, its just cool to let people think you have a short sword then to bust out a full glaive

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>>55293643

Katanas are legitimately pretty and handy blades.

>>55345198
we're not on other websites and your people cannot save you

>>55293643
Dao.
Jian.
Jian is the one true god of swords.

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>>55320995
ever seen a duck dick?

>>55332759
What's the source of this one?

>>55349811
"The Complete Taiji Dao: The Art of the Chinese Saber" by Zhang Yun.