Am I the only one who hates how every trope and cliche in fantasy

>>55233301
just be as the stone and wait 20 years, people will be doing the opposite of what they are doing now.

>>55233301
Subversions that try to adjust something that doesn't make sense into something that makes sense are fine.

Subverting a cliché for the sake of subversion is cancer. It demonstrates a failure to understand what made the cliché so popular, and only makes everything worse for the sake of "originality". Shit like "xDDD the princess saves herself, lol!". Why even have a damsel in distress plot if it's going to resolve itself, faggot? You're neither funny nor even original.

No, because I cannot go two hours browsing without one of you contrarians shitposting.

Protip- Doing generic things doesn't make you special, just as subverting things doesn't either. But posting to an echo chamber shows everyone you don't have an original bone in your body.

>>55233301
Yes.

>>55233410
>why even have it
Because now you and the villain have to work together to sleuth out where in the world the princess dissapeared to.

>>55233425
....not like I don't like the idea, but why would we cooperate with the villain?

>>55233410

> Shit like "xDDD the princess saves herself, lol!". Why even have a damsel in distress plot if it's going to resolve itself, faggot? You're neither funny nor even original.

Basically this. This is sort of why I do whatever I can to firmly establish traditional fantasy whenever possible.

For instance, a big thing of mine is 'no naturally sympathetic goblinoids'. The little fuckers will cut your throat, you're not going to find a noble savage amongst the orcs. And yes, all half-orcs are products of savage rape by male orc raiders of their helpless captives.

No, the Church of that good deity is not inherently corrupt. They serve a GOOD DEITY, who obviously keeps a close eye on the spiritual fiber of his flock. (Though a priest or two may be corrupt, the institution is not).

Paladins don't have to act like Jesus. Old Testament is a good standard.

>>55233456
I include subversions occasionally, but only after establishing the tradition as the baseline. Subversions are only really effective when subversion isn't the expectation. Traditional high fantasy would be a huge subversion nowadays, funnily enough.

>>55233451
Because it makes an interesting story anon.

>>55233301
I agree and disagree.
On the one hand, it makes me at least actually feel more invested in the universe because it either knows the premise is absurd, or is at least trying to be something new.
On the other hand, a lot of times I do get annoyed, especially when it is obvious people are subverting them because subverting things is cool, and aren't actually understanding what they are doing in the process.

>>55233504

I don't care, the villain's getting the big sword in his back the moment he gets distracted.

>>55233456
>No, the Church of that good deity is not inherently corrupt.
How many subversion cycles is this particular one on at this point?
I honestly can't tell whether the good church being sketchy, or the good church being legit is the subversion anymore.

>>55233451
Because you each have half of the clue.
And he's not sharing what he knows that easy. Because he's a villain.

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>>55233535
Personally I'd say it depends on the time and the view of Christianity at the time, because we all know many Good aligned churches are basically Catholic Church stand-ins. Up until the 50s or so Christianity had a generally good rep in Western society (hell, Pershing's volunteeers to WW1 were even called Pershing's Crusaders), so settings that predate the 60s or 70s generally have good guy churches. Starting with about the 90s (because everything was COOL and EDGY back then) there was a pretty negative view of the church which correlated with both secularism in Western Europe reaching its zenith and the pedophilia scandal in the Catholic church bursting at the seams. I imagine this made fictional corrupt churches the new standard. And then there's Japan, where it's not exceptional for the good deity himself to actually be evil.

Personally I like it when there's corrupt church leadership tricking everyone else, until a bunch of zealots figures out what's going on and purges their own church leaders.

>>55233602
Is the villain female?
Does the story end not with the two of you discovering the princess, but eachother?

Chaos God of Order is one of my favorites.
I think The Elder Scrolls handled it perfectly.

>>55233608
The villain MAY be female. I am not sure. This is a hypothetical!
As for how it ends, well, you're the player here, you tell me.

>>55233631

You know, I've had a player who really has it in for female villains. Like, he coup de graced Queen Ileosa by summoning monsters to devour her alive. He's a great guy, but he seems to find that completely hilarious.

>>55233456
>Old Testament is a good standard
Especially Deuteronomy.

>>55233669

It's more like...You can still be a Paladin and deal out harsh justice.

If a villain goes "I'm sorry for everything I ever did. I repent, truly!" you don't have to let him go through a redemption arc. You can instead say "I know. Go to your penance with a pure heart" and lop off his head.

>>55233693
>not enlisting everyone you beat as a follower/penitent

>>55233744

Not really. Most of these people are simply going to be executed after a trial. Their sins aren't going to be forgiven, so it's only dying now or later.

If you feel sorry about murdering thousands of people, you're still going to get the electric chair (or in this case, the chop). Forgiveness doesn't mean a lighter sentence, and it's not like most evildoers can ever make up for their crimes.

No, a solemn prayer, an execution, and it's off to their final reward. And if they repented out of a wish to survive, that's not genuine repentance, is it? Repentance means acknowledging your wrongdoing and being willing to accept punishment.

>>55233301
Lacie is so cute.

>>55233669
>>55233693
>>55233772
>ywn have a group that accepts a played-straight paladin that still kills villains as not stepping out of alignment bounds

>>55233301
>every trope and cliche in fantasy has to be subverted and twisted nowadays
Hey, it's much easier to do and gets your more attention than making your own stuff

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>>55233772
You're not doing it correctly.

>>55233608
>And then there's Japan, where it's not exceptional for the good deity himself to actually be evil.
Have Japan made an evil Jesus yet?
>inb4 Japanese have already done it dozen times

>>55233827
In Drifters, the BBEG is implied to be Jesus.

>>55233410
>>55233456
A warrior-princess of some sandman kingdom might be cool? The party coming to rescue her right in the middle of her own break out attempt could be a lot of fun.

>>55233301
Yes, I've honestly reached the point where it's refreshing to just embrace the tropes and and play them straight.

>>55233693
>>55233744
>>55233772
To wit, as a paladin, I did do this twice, but in each situation, I had enough control and personal power to keep the evil doer from being a threat to others if they stepped out of line.
That is really the crux of it all. Forgiveness is nice, redemption is great, but if the being you are trying to redeem can cause great harm if they backslide, then you must protect others first, rather than stroke your personal ego over a pet project.
In my case, it was a frost giant and a baleful polymorphed skeleton. I had to teach the skeleton what being kind actually was, and funded a reincarnation for him. He became a dwarf.

You live on a planet with at least 6 billion other people.

Statistically speaking, you are not.

>>55233456
Whoa. That's so totally cool and original.

>>55233301
I feel your pain. I really miss the days of just being able to have a nice, non-morally complicated plotline where the good guys are good guys, and the bad guys are bad guys, but every game I get into nowadays has to be
>LEL IMPLYING OBJECTIVE MORALITY KEKEKEKEKEK

>>55234316
If you GM, have a setting where objective morality is true, and that truth is common knowledge. Have Good and Evil be literal, extant things that have defined codes and causal effects. Have the idea of "subjective morality" be a ploy by Evil to undermine the value of Good. Have the quest be to destroy the notion of subjective morality, which grows in strength if the players have their characters question morality.

>>55233301
>>55233301
I am with you Anon. I actually like the so-called "cliched" "generic" or "Tolkien-ripoff" settings.

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>>55234272

I dislike generic fantasy because it doesn't let me have bug people and robots.
I prefer the older times when sci fi and fantasy had not differentiated yet.

>>55234380
Best setting is high science fantasy. Tone and outlook of high fantasy, but with the sci-fantasy aspects like magitech and robots and aliens and the like.

>>55234390
I'd agree with you but I also quite like sinister otherworldly ocean.
Which has a way different tone.

>>55234348
This a million times

>>55234403
I even like when some Lovecraftian stuff is thrown in, especially with a whole "We don't understand it, we don't know if we can even do anything about it, but dammit, we'll do what we can!" kind of attitude.

ISubversion is playing with expectations and improving content with such surprises and interesting dilemmas, but surgace subversion for sake of subversion or cliched subversions are pretty damn bad. If you want to be unique, don't use subversion, start with your own material.

>>55233301
I think I'll just do what I think is cool regardless of whether the particulars involved are standard or nonstandard.

>>55234432
Lovecraftian horrors are no time to panic.
You carefully arm your weapons. And if your eyes melt, you politely ask a crewman to assist in aiming your weapons.

>>55233839
But even in Drifters he's like "I tried to save humans and they crucified me for it, why not give orcs a shot?"

>>55233827
There is Drifters, and JoJo to an extend. In a way. Not really.

>>55233504
No it's not an "interesting story". It's a retarded plot development that you suggest only because you think it's "awesome" (mildly funny) to take retarded premises and playing them straight

>>55234507
Jesus in Jojo is more a neutral force, literally made of Macguffins.

>>55233301
no, what I hate more is how every trope anc cliche in fantasy is based on a couple of popular tabletop games and videogames and have nothing to o with the folklore or literature source

>>55234522
man, the fuck is wrong with aussie-hours /tg/?

>>55233410
>>55233866
because both the kidnapper and the rescuer are villains, and YOU are the princess. And your father the king wants to marry you off to some old fat slob for political reasons.
So now you have to survive going adventuring.

Meanwhile this guy is working together with both the kidnapper and the would be rescuer trying to find you. >>55233425

>>55233451
Because he isn't actually evil! He actually has good intentions, but hasn't told anyone about them because...um...reasons!

>>55233456
>For instance, a big thing of mine is 'no naturally sympathetic goblinoids'. The little fuckers will cut your throat, you're not going to find a noble savage amongst the orcs. And yes, all half-orcs are products of savage rape by male orc raiders of their helpless captives.

i don't really like "goblinoids are fucking evil fuckers who will fuck you", the rest is fine but i see no problem with something like Warcraft Orcs instead of Tolkein orcs

>>55233535
there's also the Church is good but misguided because they have a simplistic view that doesn't account for the complexity of the world.
Which results in either
- they are easily take advantage of
- they end up doing something bad that interferes with the hero, while trying to do good

>>55233301
>Modern Fantasy
>Be modern day
>Use magic
So gay

>>55233456

Why can't my half-orc come from some hairy human noble forcing himself on a captured orc female?

>>55233693
>I forgive you for the evil you've done to me. But I don't have the power to forgive you for the evil you've done to others. Only they can.
>Now go and aske them for forgiveness
and then he lops his head off.

>>55233866
>sandmans
>having warrior princesses

INSHALLAH THE HARLOT WOULD BE STONED UPON HER RETURN!

>>55233608
Or maybe it's because the Church actually has been extremely evil throughout most of history, especially the times most fantasy roleplaying games are based on, and modern people know enough about history to be aware of this.

Subversion is an easy way to make things unpredictable and somewhat fresh, and they let you play with player expectations to do so.

Assuming it doesnt break setting consistency or come with preachy political bullshit, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with it.

>>55234700
back to r atheism

>>55233693
>If a villain goes "I'm sorry for everything I ever did. I repent, truly!" you don't have to let him go through a redemption arc. You can instead say "I know. Go to your penance with a pure heart" and lop off his head.
No you fucking can't, if the villain is sincere about repenting then all executing him will accomplish is satisfying your own bloodlust.

>>55234661

Because no-one wants to fuck an orc. Orc females look like sows.

>>55233608

Female villains are always hotter than princesses.

>>55234711
Stop giving a shit about reddit, anon. It's embarrassing.

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>>55234639

Goblins will fucking kill you.

>>55234720

Cancerous DM right here.

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>>55234639
I'm fine with good or bad greenskins, or their local equivalents, but I fucking loathe the misunderstood dindu or I'M SAD!!! Shit.
Especially in cases like Warcraft, where they accidentally prove their genocidal intolerant villains like Proudmoore right by accident.

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>>55234740

Seriously, fuck those little bastards.

>>55234711
Yeah, only le reddit atheist would think that torturing and murdering people for believing something different than you do is wrong!

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>>55234749

Mercy's for chumps, especially when they're basically vermin.

>>55234749
>>55234740
Why do you have so little situational awareness?
Not you, you.

>stop liking what I don't like!

Very good OP. Your opinion is insightful and highly valued. You've made this board a better place for including it.

>>55234639
>i don't really like "goblinoids are fucking evil fuckers who will fuck you"
but that's what they are. If you don't like to have that type of creature in your setting don't use goblins.

>>55234768
OP didn't say that. He just said that he didn't like it, and wondered if anyone else shared his sentiments.

>>55233451
Because the villian has an enlighted tax scheme you can overlook him planning to kill the princess to summon horrors from beyond the veil of maddness for.

>>55234775
>but that's what they are
It's an "anon assumes that if something is true in his setting it's true in every setting" episode.

>>55233608
>Personally I like it when there's corrupt church leadership tricking everyone else, until a bunch of zealots figures out what's going on and purges their own church leaders.

This could only be even remotely interesting if it descends into a purity spiral that's only resolved by things winding up roughly where they started with new guys in charge.

>>55234786
Why would that be interesting? That sounds like status quo 90s tv serial shit.

Nig if you're going to pretend to be The Plotline Arbitrator, at least dont have shit taste.

>>55233535

I just like religious zealotism, which is both good and bad.

Having a setting of multiple gods makes it just that much more interesting.

Fuck you subversions, the human spirit is much more fun to think/write about.

>>55233608
>(hell, Pershing's volunteeers to WW1 were even called Pershing's Crusaders)

Gotta remind you that there was a romantic revival of medieval shit back then, as part of the general post-napoleonic nation building efforts taking place in Europe and the western world, so that's more of a (current year) thing for the period rather than some overaching trend.

>>55233839
>>55234507
Evil Jesus was a standard character in fleshbomb-series and appeared a lot in various manga during the 70s, I think.

>>55234785
it's not my setting, it's what folklore and literature since forever has had them be.
Until cheeky fucks decided to subvert the trope and make gobbos green barbarians.

>>55234838
Goblins as the "evil gnomes" works pretty well, also.

>>55234799
Oh right, I forgot how the French Revolution descending into complete purity spiral chaos only to result in the autocratic monarchy being swapped out for the dictator Napoleon was 90s serial shit. Or the Russian revolution experiencing a purity spiral and resulting the autocratic monarchy being swapped out for the dictator Stalin was a 90s serial as well.

>I'm gonna subvert modern fantasy by having my evil humanoids be intrinsically evil in direct defiance of that noble savage shit!

So, rather than coming up with your own thought, you're going to invert the thoughts of other and replicate the original thought they were subverting? Bravo genuis, don't fucking hurt yourself coming up with those wild thoughts.

>>55234838
You do know that benevolent goblins are substantially older than modern fantasy, right?

>>55234870
he's calling modern fantasy cheeky fucks subverting a trope.

>>55233301
Yes.
You're an unique snowflake, literally the only one who's ever had that thought.
Congratulations.

>>55234775
What other small, weirdly colored dudes would you recommend?

>>55233514
I think that makes you the villain anon

>>55235007
How?
Unless the villain is the sort of bad guy that gets bullied by all the other bad guys for being an ineffectual little faggot for not actually doing anything, I can't see how stabbing him is a bad thing

>>55234261
But how many are huge big faggots like op?

>>55235059
well for a start you don't actually know why they've been cast as the villain yet do you? And yet your first reaction is to murder them when they're unable to defend themselves

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I don't subvert as much as I go balls deep.

Elves are prancy lalala homos that fuck trees and the boys are prettier than the girls?
Bam, my Elves are unisex tree people that posses vaguely humanoid features but are total naturefags.

Dwarves are greedy blacksmiths?
Boom, my Dwarves are borderline insane, lusting after wealth like a mutt lusts after a bitch in heat. The only thing they're good for is their word, and they will keep it to the letter, but after that the only reason they get along is because mining isn't something you can do on your own. They're petty, violent, and the personification of greed. Dwarven Citadels have strong and unforgiving laws because if they didn't Dwarves would backstab each other to death for greater wealth.

Orcs are dumb savages?
Well this one I kind of subvert. Orcs have a culture and civilization, but it's a loose band of tributary states honoring a High Chief, who can be usurped at any time by someone strong enough to kill him. Dirty tricks will get you lynched in Orc society, of course, only if you get caught. They war with the humans and dwarves and elves because it's as much a right of passage for them as the fact they're a violent dog eat dog culture propped up by a strong family hierarchy that does not tolerate weakness. As such Orcs are bigger, stronger, and faster than any of the other races... once they mature. But of course a high mortality rate coupled with the constant power struggle of the Orc Tribes keeps them from taking over the world.

And humans, good old humans, just Medieval Europe on steroids. Powerplays direct and indirect, wars, vassals, arms races and treaties written and rewritten and all the fun of civil wars when there are multiple pretenders with a legitimate claim to the throne.
A world of conflict, yet one where Orcs and Humans and Dwarves fight alongside each other as often as they fight against each other, and the Elves keep to the Old Woods, except when they don't, and no one really knows why.

>>55235096
>well for a start you don't actually know why they've been cast as the villain yet do you?
Can we please not have yet another fucking thread where we all make up details not present in posts and then do mental gymnastics to accuse each other of all sorts of shit?
It gets really fucking boring really quickly.

>>55235192
"lol i stab him" also makes campaigns pretty fucking boring, anon.

>>55235192
see
>>55233514

>>55234758
>Yeah, only le reddit atheist would think that torturing and murdering people for believing something different than you do is wrong!
Yeah. Its a good thing the early church put a stop to things like the Colosseum. Thanks early Christians.

Unless you're trying to meme about the Spanish Inquisition who at most killed 5000 people over 400 years which is about a person a month.

>>55234730
Maybe if you stopped visiting reddit people would stop calling you out on it.

>>55235250
Yeah, but I dont see anything in his post about his knowledge of the villain. We know decidedly jack shit one way or another outside the villain getting back stabbed.
It's about as dumb as me saying it was perfectly justified because he saw him strangling babies. The post may not have said it, but it didn't say he didn't, right?

Make hypotheticals all you want, we all like discussion, but I'm absolutely tired of seeing people constantly shoving words in everyone else's mouth and then arguing against it. It's not clever, it's not fun and it's just going to piss people off.

>>55234730
We know it embarrasses you, newfag.

▲
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>>55234723
>Orc females look like sows.

>>55235452
>>55235342
Guys, you're embarrassing yourselves.

>>55235342
Didn't they replace the "games" with gulags? I remember there being something about the Christians saying that the bloodletting was too similar to "pagan" sacrifice so prisoners were sent sent to expire working mines instead

>>55235618
kek, reddit's really trying to deny it today.

>>55235665
I miss /tg/ before the election.

>>55235683
You and me both.

>>55235683
I miss /tg/ before GG

>>55235711
I miss /tg/ before the Nazimods

>>55235720
I miss /tg/.

>>55235725
I miss /tg/ before Warhammer Wednesdays

>>55233456
Everything you just described is subversion of the most deeply set tropes.

>>55235655
The Romans had put slaves in to mines for hundreds of years by that point. Slaves in the later Roman Empire were not as numerous because they hadn't been performing wars of conquest to capture them nearly as often as they once did, they had to "grow" their slave population from existing slaves and even passed laws limiting the amount of slaves a person could free in their will.

However Roman mines were awful, only assholes (criminals) and people you couldn't trust as normal slaves went there because it was basically a death sentence.

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>>55234740
>>55234749
Moral of the story: wear a fucking helmet.

>>55233301
Becuz orcs dindu nuffin, dey wuz good boys who bout to get dey lives on track

>>55234847
This post is retarded twofold:

1) You are comically simplifying historical events that had massive and permanent effects on the entire planet to make a point about your shit narrative preferences.

2) "These things happened in history" =/= "These things make for a compelling narrative". Shit that happened sure can, but why would that be exclusive or even an indicator? Are you that one mouthbreather who flips the table when the GM mentions potatoes in his medieval setting?

Bottom Line: You have a preference and it's shit, quit acting like holding a shit opinion makes you king of the fucking playground.

>>55233301
It doesn't, fantasy is still extremely cliche.
>anti-heroes
>noble savages
>magic
>gender equality
>medieval aesthetic but no medieval society
>religion is evil

>>55233301
>nowadays
Wake up son, they've been shitted upon ever since 2004, aka since when WoW came out.

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>>55235790
>There's this one Good Guy orc who's a general for the humans
>He's kind, succesful and brilliant
>He's a self-hating orc that now wants to purge all other orcs because they keep dragging him down with their dindu nuffin need mo money fo dem programs

>>55235766
oh sure, I was merely pointing out that for those destined to fight and probably die in the area, being sent to the mines was not exactly an act of benevolence. Ending the games had more to do with the erasing of heathen practices and the prevention of new martyrs appearing than it did with altruism.

>>55235817
Exactly. The subversions to the old tropes and cliches are now the cliches.

>>55235853
>Saint Telemachus (also Almachus[1] or Almachius) was a monk who, according to the Church historian Theodoret,[2] tried to stop a gladiatorial fight in a Roman amphitheatre, and was stoned to death by the crowd. The Christian Emperor Honorius, however, was impressed by the monk's martyrdom and it spurred him to issue a historic ban on gladiatorial fights.

Most of Rome were already Christian by this point, it wasn't a pagan practice it was a Roman one.

>>55233301
Nope. The majority like classic stuff. It's always the vocal minority that bitch online.

>>55233798
It's fantasy, not reality. Paladins can save everyone.

>>55235977
Kill the guilty so that the innocent might be spared.

>>55235977
>>55235987
Different ideas, different ways of having fun by playing a paladin. Neither of you are wrong in an RPG.

>>55234723
It doesn't have to be pretty as long as it's the best available hole within a few hundred miles

>>55235977
Oh man, I would so enjoy having the villain that you "saved" rape and murder all your loved ones.

>>55234723
Nobles can get into some nasty shit.

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I'm so tired of grimdark, unbelievably so.

I've seen it happen a lot with WoD, people try to subvert the stereotype of a clan but they just play the stereotype of another straight and think they are being clever

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>>55233827

>>55235905
Roman practice was heathen practice that's why Tertullian and Theodosius were so determined to crush it

"In place of athletes, we have our martyrs; if we crave blood, we have the blood of Christ..."

>>55233451
The villain might be evil, but he's not that evil in the grand scheme of things. All he wanted to do was extort the king for ransom. He doesn't want to torture military secrets out of her, or force her into a political marriage, or sacrifice her to bring about the apocalypse. And he'd honestly rather not see anyone else do any of those things either.

>>55236152
If Roman practice was heathen the Christians would have gone full cultural revolution Mao style once they gained power. They didn't.

Catholics to this day are still accused of being pagan, their customs and saints adopted and merged with the pagan ones. Saints often replaced existing deities. Pagan festivals were given a Christian twist. The church was extremely accommodating in the way pagan rome was with the whole "our Gods are the same bro, we just use dufferent names"

>>55234390
That's called sword and planet, right

>>55236205
>They didn't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_persecution_of_paganism_under_Theodosius_I

>>55236205
>The church was extremely accommodating
Still are, they allow ancestor worship in Asian countries, allow African Catholics to continue there dance traditions even at mass, etc

>>55235745
But those tropes are subversions of the base expectations, aren't they?
Especially the old "ha ha! The good church were the baddies all along!"

>>55236290
And yet Roman culture and practices remained the same. I was not denying the antipagan movement I was denying that the old gods had a monopoly on Roman culture, law and customs. Romans didn't stop being Roman when their religion changed, pagan religion was constantly changing over the centuries and different cults and Gods merged all the time.

>>55234720
Not at all. Executing them when they're I a state of grace will remove them from the sinful influences of this world, allowing your God and their angels to truly redeem them. In time, they may become a Saint who influences the world through miracles, or perhaps even an angel themself. Whereas if you spare their life, you risk losing their soul to evil once again.

>>55234522
Playing retarded premises straight is Lawful Good.

>>55236417
Well, I mean you're not wrong

>>55236386
Byzantium stays kind of similar I guess but Rome proper pretty much collapses

>>55236408
true that, literally the best way ensure the purity of a peoples is to drown them at birth

>>55233827
>Have Japan made an evil Jesus yet?

I argue most of the Law faction from the Shin Megami Tensei series.

>>55236511
First Christian Emperor became Emperor of the whole thing in 324. The West officially ended in 476-480, so about 150 years. Even after the West fell under "barbarian" rule these new rulers were often massive Romanboos, they adopt Latin and tried to emulate Roman customs for centuries. The Eastern Empire continued to use Latin until the reign of Heraclius in 610, another 130 years after the West fell and 300 years after Constantine became the first Christian Emperor.

The fact that 800 million people still speak a Romance language and many of those are Catholics it isn't a stretch to say that the Christian Romans didn't destroy Roman culture but that they both just evolved over time together.

>>55235817
Let's see....
Yeah my game has no anti-heroes, there are some warlocks, but most of them are either religious fanatics or just traders.
Well my monsters are social, but yeah still either scavengers, cannibals or both - no honor or sense of good or bad.
Magic - it's in there somewhere, but I got science as well to cover it.
Yeah gender equlity is not present everywhere, depends of the group, kobolds and lizardfolk don't care about it because one can change gender and other is not that much sexually dimorthinc, while gnolls are female rules society and it sucks to be a man there (exept for before mentioned reptile races as gnolls see no difference between men and women in them)
No midieval aestehic in mine (more like tribal mixed with steam punk-tech and some others stuff from myself thrown in)
I don't know about last one, they are one sided for sure, but most are just bunch of fanatics that are all about either killing of undead, looting or planting treants

So my game is good, nice

>>55234700

Ahhahahaha.

Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder. AHHHHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>55235817
Let's see how my setting does.

>anti-heroes
If you're not heroic, you're not a hero. The world is too dangerous and erratic to waste time angsting or waxing philosophical.
>noble savages
The savages are not noble, and any form of society they have is truly alien to any PCs that encounter them - their thought processes are even different enough that telepathy can't break through.
>magic
A hallmark of any form of fantasy but low-fantasy.
>gender equality
Depends on the race and the part of society. The automatons of the Realm of Order see everyone as equal beneath them. The fireborn of the lost cities have a strict agnatic society, contrasted by the cognatic society of the merfolk. Et cetera, et cetera.
>medieval aesthetic but no medieval society
18th century aesthetic with a feudal, autocratic society
>religion is evil
Evil is a known and defined force, and there is a religion around it. But religion is also quite literally keeping the world held together, as the Priests of Order summoned the automatons to maintain the world as the rampant abuse of magic accelerated its decay and deterioration.

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>>55236684
<pic related>

>>55236594
Well, no. Remember original sin exists.

>>55236894
okay drown them at baptism/confirmation then

>>55236909
Confirmation's best. That's when they're admitted as a full member of the church.

>>55234746

Warcraft orcs CAN work, but only if you keep them fairly neutral. Like, nomadic tribal not-inherently-evil orcs is reasonable.

>>55236049

I feel that, senpai. Sometimes you just wanna be the big damn hero fighting the obvious evil. Get some Noblebright up in here.

>>55234700
I think you don't know nearly as much history as you think you do.

>>55236921
and thus is spawned a new cult in my game

>>55236879
Most of the Roman Empire weren't "true Romans" Anon, the city conquered and incorporated people who later became Roman. Considering it went from a language spoken in a small part of Italy to the language of western Europe is evidence of this. The Romans didn't genocide everyone in France and Spain you know, the locals there adopted Latin over time. Native Americans adopting Spanish and Portuguese is actually similar to how Celts in Gaul and Iberia adopted Latin.

I'm not trying to say Mexicans are Romans but they do speak a Roman language and follow a Roman religion.

>>55237125
I get what you're saying but I'm rather of the opinion that Roman Catholicism has evolved into something sufficiently distinct from the Roman empire.

>>55233415
Nope, see you're actually wrong. Enjoy being wrong.

>>55233652
Underlying woman issues vibe from him at all?

>>55236982
Why does them being Good tip the scales?

>>55234348
This is best way.

>>55234661
Or who raped human females from 254fs-264fs= 65743
Humans who raped orc females those same years=0.

>>55236982
I like them designed as warcraft orcs and with their own culture and philosophy on life (that I've made up on my own), but nobody can deny that they raid towns, capture the fit as thralls for labor and breeding, and burn/murder the rest.

They're like terrestrial vikings.

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>Am I the only one who

>>55234348
This.

>>55234749
>>55234740
this is awesome

what other mangas deal with fantasy creatures done right? and what anime is this?

>>55235005
Smurfs
"trolls" from Frozen

>>55235170
>Orcs have a culture and civilization,
boring

>>55238783
goblin slayer
>>55238821
fock you

>>55233866
Eeeeeeh, I hesitate to remove any potency the PCs have established. Her make the PCs redundant is a big possibility. I would prefer that she help you once she is out of her cell, like at Leia in New Hope, she needs to be rescued from the cell, but once she is she is firing blasters with the rest of them.

It is much easier to subvert, criticize and destroy than it is to create something substantial.

>>55233827
Japan has historically killed of Christians by the truckload, then rewrote history to make Christianity/Jesus evil from their perspective

>>55238917
Based.

>>55238966
>Genocide
>Based
Oh hai /pol/, here to support your "honorary aryans"?

>>55239239
What are you talking about? Have you never played Shogun total war or something?

God, what a shitposter.

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>>55239239
>not farming Aryans for the blood vats

>>55237653
Clearly humans are devoid of ambition.

>>55239489
or have functional rationale

proper humans at least

>>55235096
By defining them as 'villain,' who already once engaged in kidnapping, you're outright setting yourself up for this. If you 'subvert it' you're just establishing information that has to be added one, when you clearly understand that what the guy is saying is that all things being equal, he's gonna shiv the kidnapping villain, not work with them.

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There's nothing inherently wrong with subversion, thing is doing it well and originally takes effort and to paraphrase someone else "if you're going to try to make something out of someone else's perfectly serviceable cake, you better make it just as edible if not better."

For example, if you're going to make Orks sympathetic in some way, then you better fucking not rehash Warcraft for the upteenth time.

>>55233456
None of that is "traditional", dumbass.

>>55239967
>literally "no you"
Just shut up

>>55233368
/thread

>>55240055
>The little fuckers will cut your throat, you're not going to find a noble savage amongst the orcs.
What is this, world of warcraft? Fucking pathfinder?

>>55240459
I know in your mind your post made sense, but the rest of us have no idea what the fuck is your problem. Try not being an autist next time and formulate proper post, with a goal and idea behind it instead of "trolling".

>>55233451
because the "villian" was just the princess' boyfriend (and a bunch of people who follow him) that the king branded as evil cunts

>>55240558
My problem is people thinking concepts that originated in the 80s are "traditional fantasy".

>>55240592
And your solution is...?
>having to waste 2 posts just so you make up your point
I really shouldn't have to ask you to explain yourself, these sort of things should be done on your own.

>>55233456

Good shit, senpai. I approve.

>>55238783
It's called Goblin Slayer. Fair warning, it's pretty fucked up.

>>55240558
>>55240673
Why do your posts look like they weren't written by a human?

>>55235170
Huh. I try to duck the whole trope thing and slowly piece together stuff I like. For example, two of the elements I've got looking for a place to live are

>psychic arcade machine (telepathy? clairvoyance?)
>group (monks? megachurch? fundamentalists?) attempting to genetically engineer dolphins which exhibit good Christian morality, particularly regarding the rejection of sexual deviancy; once created, raised, and exposed to the word of the Lord (translated into dolphin), they are to be released into the wild, where they will lead other dolphins to repent their sinful ways, or possibly outcompete them via their superior moral virtue

It's likely that these are tropes of some kind, but I'm not worried about that.

>>55235683
>>55235703
>>55235711
>>55235720
>>55235725
Sad times, these. I don't know where to turn. Wat do, elf slave, wat do?

>>55233410
This pretty much. I do stuff like the fact that all races do actually have females and choose there own race over others. IE, a Goblin probably thinks you're as ugly as you see a goblin or a Orc cannot understand how you can eat with those tiny teeth (or how your males see them as attractive). Course there is the sick fucks in each race that will fuck anything / one. Also most races cannot do halfs due to genetic reasons, and if they can they are mules and tend to be sterile (humans are not a exception).
I subvert or play strait based on logic or for logical reasons. In the case of Goblins for example, they don't do the whole breeding den thing because it doesn't work, but they will torture / kill you without question because they don't see you as people, and naturally same for humans to them. If you try to be merciful you may get to pat yourself on the back, or the goblin may opportunistically stab you for it and think that you were a idiot.

>>55234708
Problem is I expect the subversion nowadays and I know exactly how they're going to subvert it because they don't have a single creative bone in their body.

>>55234700

The Church literally preserved civilization, you're thinking of Islam.

>>55246846
History is written by the victors.

Or do you really think the Church gained all it's wealth through charity?

>>55246846
Honestly, all those nearly identical religions tend to blend together.
You guys should just get together with your nearly identical holy books and figure out what your actual message is.

>>55234720

Except they never are, you're just asked to "believe me I'm totally sincere lol" to feed into some retard's "good people are dumb" edgefag narrative.

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>>55246903
Whether or not they truly mean it is not important.
They will.

>>55234838
Meanwhile Hobgoblins are considered much more benevolent in folklore due to the 'Hob' part of their name and yet they are just bigger, badder Goblins in most settings.

>>55247089
I don't even know what a hobgoblin is imo, I thought it was invented for D&D, there is a folklore about them?

>>55247098
You would not believe how much folklore was subverted by D&D.

>>55247098
There is indeed. I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject but a basic google search will tell you that they were basically housekeeper spirits who had a penchant for pulling pranks. Basically what Gnomes turned into sans the association with advanced technology that occasionally pops up.

>>55247110
I would like to know more.

>>55233301

No. Fantasy needs a metric fuckload of innovation every second - or at least fantasy fans should be exposed to that treatment

When was the last time you actually rescued a princess who was kidnapped against her will by someone with purely evil motives, and then brought her to safety without any issues like having to treat her Stockholm Syndrome?

Can it even be called cliched if it never actually happens any more?

>>55233301
You can't have something in a story just for the sake of having it. You have to take a cliche, or subversion, or a whatever, and use it as a starting point for inspiration then work from there. What made the thing do what it did and why was it what it was? If we change something or mix it up, what implications would that have?

>>55235005
Xvarts

>>55233301
Yes, you are.
Next question.

>>55233535
Good church being good is the subversion because people can't accept that a organization is good without there being something to fuck it up.

>>55233301
Blame tv tropes. TV Tropes ruined the internet.

>>55235791
Holy fuck you're thick. You expect me to write a history textbook on 4chan? You think that I think that historical precedent is the sole basis of a good narrative? No, I just think that a revolution losing site of its initial aims and spiral into terror that results in people clamoring for anything that brings stability (as they often did historically) is more compelling than "plucky revolutionaries save (thing) with copious violence that somehow works itself out."

>Bottom Line: You have a preference and it's shit, quit acting like holding a shit opinion makes you king of the fucking playground.

You're the one who started waving out your preferences in attention grabbing spoilers first buddy. You're on fucking 4chan, don't want people telling you their preferences are better than yours? Don't fucking advertise your preferences idiot.

>>55235791
Also historical precedent was brought up to show that it wasn't "90s serial shit." You fucking imbecile.

>>55234749
So, if I get this right, she murdered the thing's family, and we're supposed to feel that it's an animal for lashing out like this?

>>55248620
I honestly hope the story is about the goblins, from those pages they look and act fucking badasses. Alpha as shit

>>55248659
They fuck bitches and hoard riches but sadly they all get killed by that armored beta cunt.

>>55248544
Blame a bunch of randos for pointing out that the fucking SKY was fucking BLUE? That water was, get this, wet?

The fuck's wrong with you?

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>>55234723
>Because no-one wants to fuck an orc.

>>55248620
She showed mercy and was attacked from behind for it. That's why it deserved to be put down.

>>55233456
I would like to read or play in a world in which a deity activly helps his flock and still wants to be worshipped as a God.

>>55234740
>>55234749
>>55234760
Who honestly can read this trash without rolling their eyes?

>>55251830
Why is it trash?

>>55233301
I'm still not over fantasy developing cliches to begin with.
And a fashionable tone shift isn't a subversion or a reversal. All the mandatory shit is still mandatory. We're still never going to have magic in a named historical setting again, or real people visiting a fantasy setting, or fantasy settings that operate on dada logic again. All three of those used to be the norm.

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>>55234261
actually 7.5 billion now senpai

>>55239636
>"if you're going to try to make something out of someone else's perfectly serviceable cake, you better make it just as edible if not better."
deep

>>55240581
Oh i can actually get behind that.
Maybe the Boyfriend was just some stableboy in the kings court.
And when it came out the King exiled his plebian ass out of the kingdo, because he want's his daugther to be married to some noble who can support her.

Now the thing is, Mr. Stableboy also has a Wizard friend with no sense of right or wrong and the wizard cooks up a plan...
A few Months later one night the "Dark Overlord" and his skeleton army appears at the gates and threatens the King to lay waste to the country if he won't marry the princess to him.
The Dark overlord is of course just the Stableboy who is really hoping that nobody notices that his armor is made out of reshaped coocking utensils and the "skeleton" army his buddy prepared the last months are just some really thin wood golems. In general he is not sure if that's the right idea but Steve said it was the only way.... also Steve is hiding a few feets away in some bushes and is laughing his ass off.

And then the Princess dissapears, he has this weird clue that makes no fucking sense and now he is traveling with those so called "heroes" who try to kill him with their stares.

>>55239636
>For example, if you're going to make Orks sympathetic in some way, then you better fucking not rehash Warcraft for the upteenth time.

They kinda did take drugs, invade and genocide multiple planets and were only stopped because fuckery cut them off from getting more men and materiel over to Azeroth.

I hate it too. Everything has to be "ironic" these days or "inverted" because people are disgusted by anything genuine.

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>>55235791
Bis preference isn't shit you mong. Thats actually a really interesting topic to explore zealous revolutionaries that fall in the trap of authoritarianism and their cultural mechanisms.

You don't have to like it personally but for pretending its 90s serial tier you deserve to get your ballsack whipped by a salty Eunuch.

>>55234760
I was recommened the light novel of this by a friend and was very dissapointed.
It's basically a harem anime, with the added element of 3 implied goblin rapes every chapter. The goblin rape thing would be a little less weird if not every single one of the women being raped was young, pretty, and not heavily armored.
Also, where the fuck do all these adventurers come from? If this is a brutal fucking world in which monsters are monstrous and surround the kingdom on all sides, and it's a well known fact that the better adventurers are unreliable then why isn't there a standing military? Why don't any villages have a peasant militia? Why doesn't the main character who's sole goal is to kill goblins, and knows alot of different ways to kill them and not get killed by them just tell villagers who he's doing jobs for "By the way, smoking them out of their caves is a pretty reliable tactic"

>>55233301

It's this way with everything, anon. Here's an example- Wagnerian Music has outlasted and eclipsed damn near the entire body of work and the musical tropes it is supposed to be a subversion and twist of- it's now the orthodoxy, and nobody remembers the "old" cliches.

>>55252962
>It's another "domestic abuse is fine if the victim is male" episode

>>55237653
I understood this reference

>>55251519
That was a dumb mistake on her part. You don't murder someone's family and then expect them to play nice.

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>>55234261
>>55251911

>>55257815
You'd expect them to play nice if you'd literally just spared their life.

>>55258194
Soylent Green, pls.

>>55259029
So if I break into your house while you're away, kill your entire family, burn everything you ever loved and you come back to see me spinning your little sister impaled from crotch to mouth on a grill spit over a slow flame, then tell you that you can leave, you're telling me you're going to be grateful and thank me with tears in your eyes before walking away and returning to your normal life somehow?

>>55259114
>implying

>>55243290
We either ignore bait entirely or turn it into something interesting.
When someone comes up with an idea, rather than telling them it's shit, figure out a way to make it work. Different strokes and all that bullshit. Create SOMETHING out of whatever mess it is. Maybe they'll like it more, and it's a lot more constructive than 'it's shit'. Or just ignore it and move on. You don't need to tell someone a thread died for this.

>>55233301
Fuck TV Tropes and their obsession with their retarded version of deconstruction

>>55259114
Thing to keep in mind there is that this is a goblin child. Yes, one would usually expect that a crying child whose family just died in front of them would probably continue sitting and crying. At most, one would expect them to swear Batman-esqe revenge.

The thing the comic is trying to emphasize is that goblins are monsters. This thing wasn't actually sad about its family, that it was a trick just to get the girl to let her guard down, because there's no such thing as an innocent or friendly goblin or blah blah blah.

Trying to rationalize its behavior is the exacy opposite of what that dumb story goes for, so that it can have the MC be 'badass' for being pragmatic about killing monsters while everyone else tries to argue for moral grays and gets fucked for it

>introduce nice, experienced, veteran alchemist grandpa that is a highly esteemed member of society with a huge mansion and buttlers and maids and is a good guy from the bottom of his heart
>party assumes the maids are his harem and he's the cult leader they are tracking down and that the assassination attempt on him was staged
This level of prejudice floating around in any game these days sucks.

>>55233608
Weren't most priests corrupt in Conan? I know they weren't modeled off Christianity but still

Also as for the whole evil church thing I like my religious organizations corrupt as hell but I also like to make the lower level priest generally sincere and overall good people

>>55233608
I always get some interedting results by just turning everything into pseudo-corporations and businesses.
Religion and the church acting like some kind of charitable bank or a mental rehabilitation company focused on helping people overcome mental health issues by finding something to lean onto in religion and having an employee structure supporting a gigantic international company like that can be pretty interesting.

Similar concepts can be applied to whole states, schools, cults, tribes, hell even stealthily to the party itself by confronting them with stuff that needs planning and proper allocation of staff/members without them even realizing it.
Yes, I only play fantasy/medieval campaigns with at best a steampunk/magicraft vibe

>>55261712
I'm not an expert on human institutions but treating every institution like a corporation might be oversimplifying it to the point of it being a problem, then again if it works for your players why change?

>>55261797
It's more of a gimmick than anything and I don't do it all the time for everything. I use it as a random twist to make some more basic and classic concepts a bit more odd and possibly interestinf while keeping its spirit for the most part.
Just because a country's church is effectively organized like a giant medical firm doesn't mean they're sutomstically a sketchy and unlawful firm but I try to keep them within their original bounds.

>>55259114

There are no female goblins. They reproduce by rape.

>>55261890
>implying a goblin can't identify as a woman
CIS SCUM GET OUT

>>55261393
That sounds incredibly stupid, and only highlights how idiotic the whole "goblins are monsters" thing really is.

>>55261393
But kids all the time come at people with knives.

>>55262249
No see but they rape people so that means it has to be a mature interpretation, of course

>>55260244
That wasn't what I meant at all. I wasn't trying to insult anybody, it was just a difference in style.

Thinking about things in terms of subverting or altering or otherwise messing with existing tropes has the advantage of being relatively... workable, I guess? It's something you can actually finish in a reasonable period of time. Doing what I do, or try to do, takes forever and doesn't always work. At least, that's true for me: sitting around and thinking "Ghosts and googie architecture... does that work together? Where do I go from there?" takes a lot more time than saying "Alright, pirate centaurs! And elves that don't really understand nature at all but are convinced that they do!"

>>55263652
Didn't say you were.
Was a response to the second half. The mass reply to the 'I miss old /tg/' posts and what we could do about it.

>>55255134
Or the fact that if the goblins are really such a giant threat that they are losing entire villages to goblin raids (implied to be semi regularly to) you sure as hell bet the king or whatever government would step in and order the goblins massacre. A village a year is already a major fucking deal for a medieval kingdom to deal with, considering some would only have like 100 or so if they were massive.
Or the fact the entire fucking problem would be solved if they just put a higher bounty on the Gobbos heads, specially for higher ranked ones you would expect in their dens, and perhaps major ones for rescuing females or bringing baby ears, which would prove they cleared a den. Plus if you put a fucking bounty on those little babies heads that's HIGHER then their parents mercy would just fly out the window. Then with the influx they could increase the difficulty to prevent noobs from going for dens, or at least thinking that it would be easy. Suddenly the goblins are out of their easiest "meals".
It's not even for moral reasons, wiping out the vast majority of goblins would dramatically increase the safety, hence more trade / easier to reclaim more land / adventurers wouldn't just die so good ones start to come more frequently / towns wouldn't have to worry about the green rape men from destroying them, thus military expenses on a personal level go down, not to mention the sheer population boom that would occur due to less people just being rape-murdered. All that would equal serious mountains of cash for everyone involved.
Or the sheer fact that goblins are so destructive with their females. It's just massively inefficient to be stabbing the birthing bed with a poisoned dagger. Or lighting them on fire / starving / drowning... The most powerful gobbo would be the one to not murder the seedbeds and stop the others from doing so.
It's just retardation all around. A lot of it screams it's that way for the edge factor. Good idea, shit execution.

>>55233456
>For instance, a big thing of mine is 'no naturally sympathetic goblinoids'. The little fuckers will cut your throat, you're not going to find a noble savage amongst the orcs. And yes, all half-orcs are products of savage rape by male orc raiders of their helpless captives.
Bit racist.

>>55238917
>foreigners spreading their foreign religion, causing spreading unrest and increasing zealotry is good

>>55265184
You need a group of enemies that it's unambiguously ok to kill if you're running a combat heavy campaign though, your players shouldn't be automatically evil for playing the game

So if you're tired of subverting and doing generic stuff instead, are you subverting the subversion?

>>55265481
The Conan stories were combat heavy and he didn't need unambiguously evil enemies.

>>55265184

Why? It's not a stand-in for any minority, unless you're projecting really hard. In which case, you should ask yourself who the real racist is.

>>55236022
nigga what the fuck is wrong with you, spoutin' this edgey-ass shit

>>55233301
I agree, that can be pretty annoying. Most of the time it seems like they're only doing it so they can say "We're different."

Another thing that bothers me is the current trend toward making fantasy into cynical, dirty, dark shit like Game of Thrones or The Witcher.

>>55266549
It's not all that recent, and it tends to come in waves. Elric and the billion clones that spawned didn't last forever.

>>55265481
>You need a group of enemies that it's unambiguously ok to kill
Those are called nazis, anon.

>>55267624
I like using malfunctioning robots.
Or rampant robots.
I'm not sure if rampancy is technically a malfunction.
And the bydo.
Nobody ever felt bad killing the bydo.

>>55266258
I'll take the picts for 200, Alex.

>>55267624
>implying

The events going on nowadays are proving that they were right. Don't fall for their demonization.

>>55267784
t. nazi

>>55267784
>invaded russia
>lost the war

my dude, the third reich was a bit shit

>>55267820
t.antifaggot

>>55267842
War was inevitable, you know ((who) controlled the Soviets.

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>>55233301
FUCKIN SEA DWARFS .
I seen this shit like by 4 different people. Each of them thinking they are super cleaver and trend breaking

>>55268048
I need to put that in my game sometime, super cleavers sound fun.

>>55262799
Hush, we deliberately made crimes committed by kids non-crimes so that we can talk shit about niggers.

>>55234857
>thought

>>55233456
>Old Testament is a good standard.
>good standart
>for anything at all

Someone saying that has not read the old testament at all. Old testament is such a surreal , contradictory and racist mess that no one can base their morals completely from that book aside from a mad person.

>>55252218
Or, you know, the stableboy could become the Dread Pirate Roberts.

>>55235742
I miss M00t

>>55267688
The picts weren't unambiguously evil. They were just humans.

>>55268158
>Someone saying that has not read the old testament at all. Old testament is such a surreal , contradictory and racist mess that no one can base their morals completely from that book aside from a mad person.
Excellent start for a Paladin then.