Hard science fiction, but with real, quantifiable magic.

>>55229729
So, are the FTL drives powered by wizards? What are you getting at?

>>55229729
>Hard sci-fi
>magic

pick one

Also
>magic
>quantifiable

pick. fucking. one.

>>55229729
If it's quantifiable then it isn't magic, it's science.

Yes, you just don't explain it to the readers or players or if you do, only in some incredibly difficult to understand text that takes years of study and costs a lot to get.
In real life our understanding of how things work is at a way lower level than what science actually knows on most topics, it would not be different with magic.

>>55229803
well, it's more accurate to say it's a force, or a combination of forces within the realm of human understanding engineered to assist in human pursuits. Science is a method of quantifying and understanding information in an effort to find the truth.

>>55229803
Since when are magic and science fundamentally opposed? If magic is observable, than science can be applied to it. A more appropriate dichotomy would be something more like one between the normal operation of physics and magic. Magic defying standard rules and laws of physics.

If you can explain your magic it aint magic anymore.

Yes, read Ra (by qntm). Magic is a branch of physics discovered in the 70s. Mages use lots of runic circles. You find out what magic really is by the end.

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>>55229729
>real, quantifiable magic.
But then it's not magic, it's a fifth fundamental force. I mean, maybe uneducated peasants/plebs CALL it magic, but that's not magic.

Yeah with psychic powers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfQ9rGwYriQ

Revelation space did this by making the relativistic light speed travel a product of a long lost technology to the point that it was essentially just magic powering the drive

>>55229906
>If magic is observable
then it isn't magic.

>>55229917
There are plenty of ways to explain magic and keep it as magic. Say magic is derived from the divine spark and breath imparted on humanity by some creator god who predates familiar existence. In this way, they're able to access some portion of this divine power which is not subject to any of the laws and limitations of the universe.

What's the source that magic can't be oberservable and studied?

>>55229848
>Hard sci-fi
>Handwave shit
Pick one.

>>55229729

Mass Effect.

>>55230021
>Mass Effect
>Hard Scifi

>>55230021
Once mentioning how projectiles stay in motion in space does not make it hard sci-fi

>>55229987
It's definition

>the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

If magic can be understood, it is no longer mysterious nor supernatural. Therefore what forces or methods you have come to understand is actually not magic.

Sure, you can observe the effects of magic in a world that has it, if you can ever understand the forces and mechanisms behind it, it's not magic.

>>55230021
Okay. If you deranged motherfuckers are using Mass Effect as your benchmark for hard sci-fi then you're so far off course that we've got nothing to talk about.

>>55230137
>I didn't read the Codex

>>55230163
Mass Effect has well thought-out, internally consistent science. That does not make it hard sci-fi.

>>55230163
The only thing hard about Mass Effect is my dick. It's Baldur's Gate in space. Or, for a more appropriate comparison, KOTOR but with the serial numbers filed off.

>>55230163
I don't think you know what hard sci-fi means

>>55229961
So basically, magic isn't magic if it actually does anything? I'm not saying it should be something like electricity. I'm saying that if it has observable effects then magic can be studied. Therefore it can be science'd. Even if it doesn't work the same as mundane physics.

>>55230163
No, man. The very basis of most tech in the setting, while consistent and making nods to real physics, is still very blatantly soft and not real physics. Element Zero, Biotics, the title of the setting, all of it is counter to physics. Ships don't even worry about Delta-V at all and effectively have not only infinite fuel but mainly fly like aircraft.

>>55230138
I think something operating above common physics would qualify as "supernatural".

>>55229729
i would argue yes, since a lot of fantasy treats magic in a very scientific manner, with wizards and mages being scholars and academics who research the mechanisms of it.
in a scifi setting, you'd simply be adding another law of nature.
i'd still call it scifi, but with a huge "what if" tacked on.

>>55229950
This, except I'll add that the choice to call it 'magic' is ultimately semantics at that point.

>>55230251
Christ, I hope nobody shows you Quantum Mechanics. You'll be screaming 'burn the witch' for weeks.

>>55230251
>common physics
You're retarded.

>>55229961
the wizard shoots a fireball out of his hands, but it isn't actually magic, since the fireball gives of heat and light and is therefore observable.

They have figured out a quantum version of the Maxwell Demon. They use it for their 100% efficient Dyson Spheres.

>>55229950

It's semantics. At its core magic is actually you this shit and then that shit happens (hey, Frazer said it).

So... I dunno, I guess you could have an order of priests/mage that meditate hard to do whatever, instead of engeneering weapons, robots, ships.

BUT.

In our culture (possibly more than in ancient times, amusingly enough) magic is tied with mistery., mysticism, instinctual revelations about the universe and whatnot.

Consider this in a scifi setting. Lots of terraforming, alien biomes, hell, even orbital/ship habitats: ecology is a critical field of lore. And there are "space druids" who by magic tend to these fields.

Druids are basically scientists that by training can "shortcut" observations and whatnot: they can, I dunno, "feel the forest" and measure pretty clearly the soil state, predict weather meditating, enter a trance to possess animals (I'm not intentionally limiting myself to "lower level" powers, but it's probably easier this way). And they can use this connectiom: maybe by meditating hard for decades, in rotation. they can change weather patterns on a continental scale. At the same time, they do use RL meteorologists skills and probably weather satellites as well - basically they're just expanding their brains to other "bodies".

There is no related feeling of wholeness, or at least no more than what a climatologist or a biologist would feel today (still, it might be kinda trippy to be a shrimp for an hour).

There are no SWs-like religious mumbo-jumbo, and probably those skills are even explained by whatever physics you might think of.

Is this still "magic"? The powers per se would be pretty much Force-like, if you think about it. But woul that feel magical in the setting?

>>55229729
>>55229788
Near future. One day, a blip in the laws of physics appears. Though thought entirely random and unpredictable at first, decades of painstaking research shows that certain patterns can create effects not normally covered by the laws of physics. These resemble an alphabet, which is decoded and reverse-engineered into a fully-understood mechanism.

Whether etched onto metal, drawn on paper, or randomly arranged by branches on a stream or debris surrounding a black hole, each specific (and very hard to generate randomly) sequence has an associated effect. Some call them runes or glyphs, but there's nothing so base as charms to deflect an enemy's weapons or gain the love of a desired one. Instead, the symbols beget minute, observable and reproducible effects on the laws of physics. Shift the density of a contained fluid without changing its state. Strengthen, disperse or redirect the gravitational acceleration of an inscribed object. Allow heavy synthetic elements to remain stable for extended periods of time.

The cause is not fully understood -- what could possibly tie the laws of physics to arbitrary inscriptions? -- but the effects are. Within the decade, mankind has progressed by a century. Shifting mass of a vessel to zero has allowed FTL travel. Cold fusion, stable antimatter, and all manner of once-fantastical processes are now commonplace. All fields, from medicine to transportation to entertainment, are advancing at an astronomical pace.

Mankind, by some universal fluke, obtained magic. And mankind mastered it, and with it, the universe.

They have figured out that all the electrons in the universe are just a single and only one traveling bacwards and forwards in time.

>>55230288
you're confusing the effects of magic with magic itself. don't do that.

Magic is a method of using a force or force beyond understanding to do something.

Science is a method of gathering and understanding information.

Engineering is a method of using information you understand to do something you want.

If something is truly magic, it will always be beyond true understanding. Always.

>>55230308
I like it

>>55230343
Watching public television, aye?

>>55230260
Why would I? That's just part of the everyday operation of physics. that people generally don't understand fully.
>>55230270
Nope. "Common physics" would be how things normally operate without external interference, and that includes quantum mechanics. Magic would be something clearly distinct from that. Not some interpretation of quantum mechanics where people make it out to be some kind of voodoo, but something that simply does not follow the internal logic of the universe at all and is capable of interfering with its workings from the outside.

>>55230308
This isn't hard sci-fi, this is science fantasy.

>>55230343
If they've 'figured it out', then that's science! I swear people here used to understand this shit.

If you send a satelitte outside the galaxy attached to aimpossible strong and long cable connected to a generator, would you get power out of dark energy spanding space?

>>55230343
>only one traveling bacwards and forwards in time
Nice misunderstanding of a buzzword you heard once. Matter and its antimatter form are mathematically identical to matter and a time-reversed unit of matter, but 5 seconds of thought shows there must be more than one electron. Take that time before your next post.

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>>55230367
>"common physics"

But congrats, you just agreed with us by defining magic as something beyond the universe, and therefore observation and understanding.

>>55230383
I blame vancian casting systems. Or any system that tries to quantify magic for ease of use and consumption rather than just leaving it as what it was: a literary plot device.

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>>55230345
That's a very modern definition. In many ancient cultures, "magic" was just the work of a higher race of beings controlled or influenced, or the result of a natural law. The entire philosophy of Hermeticism, from which we get the notion of the scholar-wizard [at least in part, older notions of magi exist] is basically a science that happens to not be true.

Astrology and Alchemy are both sciences.
Invocations and magic words are usually commands to the cosmos itself or certain spirits to manipulate the machinery of Nature to perform a given result.

The idea of magic as incomprehensible force is pretty modern, as is the notion of magic as willworking. Consider the classic wizards

Merlin did his feats through 'subtlety' basically conning the cosmos through his wisdom.

King Solomon commanded demons.

The Arabian magicians used rings and bottles for djinn, and shamans speak to the spirits of phenomena to control those phenomena. Learn to Magic pleb.

>>55229729
Mobile Suit Gundam had the Newtype thing which for all intents and purposes was magic. It became quantifiable and had special weaponry developed around it? It has its flaws, and isn't the hardest, but has elements of what you are looking for.

>>55230348
Gracias

>>55230370
Pardon, but I was under the impression that that covered stuff like 40k or Star Wars, which is basically fantasy with spaceships and guns.

>>55230308
did you just come up with that?
cause that's pretty good.

>>55229729

Yes, but it has to be a very limited kind of magic, not the Dnd style 'this force does eeeeeverythiiiiiing' bullshit.

Here's how I would pitch hard scifi with magic: our quantum mechanics tests came to a puzzling result: none of the math for shit like observance affecting outcome made sense the more we learned about it. There was no reason why adding a human observer should change things.

The realization was a simple as it was profound: the problem wasn't the physics model, it was the human.

From very early in our evolutionary history, mankind stumbled unto an evolutionary advantage that people have since called magic. Simply put, our minds exert a push and a pull on the events around us even if we physically do not. We cannot make a glass fly across a room, but we CAN increase the chance of that glass being knocked off the table by random accident. Not by a lot, just by a very very small amount. But in the grand scheme of species survival, even a 0.01% weight in your favor benefits the species even if the individual level never notices.

Some people breed the trait stronger than others, but there isn't actually any reason to believe that people who can manipulate probability consciously have ever been born even as freak accidents. Most people have just enough of this power for their observational impact to be detected on the quantum level.

But, like the electron, what is tiny and weak on its own gets stronger and more powerful if you know what you are doing and you have a lot to work with. A stadium of cheering fans is two competitions: the players on the field, and the fans in the seats clashing for control of the probabilities. Pushing the ball towards and away from the goal in a magical tug of war.

Through genetic engineering and computer support, this power can be levied into an observable phenomenon that has a number of minor applications that would otherwise be impossible. No one knows the real limits of this new field of science.

>>55230470
I'm sure this will come as a shock to you, but you're living in the contemporary period, where we use contemporary definitions when discussing things unless specified otherwise.

>>55230395

Oh no. That was a serious hipothesis made by a real scientist before we understood quantum theory better. The idea came because all electrons look like the smae one.

>>55230493
Hard SF is literally the exact opposite of that.

>>55230493
>40k and star wars are hard sci fi

dear god. no no no no no no on no no. Just.

NO.

>>55230518
It was basically a joke, and also the way you phrased it makes it seem as if it's the way it actually works. Learn English, read a book about the topic, and try again.

>>55230345
you're confusing the word "observable" with "explainable". don't do that.
semantics semantics semantics

>>55230541
you're going to want to write PBS then mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dqtW9MslFk

>>55230470

Hermeticism is actually really fucking cool, and any fa/tg/uy not already read up on it should do so for worldbuilding purposes.

In many ways, Hemeticism was the science before science. The idea that 'as above, so below', that the heavens and the earth must follow the same set of laws and neither side gets to run on arbitrary bullshit, is huge. Sure, they still thought stuff like gods and magic were a thing to be accounted for in their model of the cosmos, but you have to start somewhere. Without Hermetic modes of thought to pave the way, we wouldn't have gotten the scientific method.

So Blame?

>>55230552
now you're intentionally being retarded.

stop that.

>>55230493
How is everyone being wizards not fantasy?

>>55230432
Did I say "beyond understanding". Even in a story where everything works perfectly according to the laws of physics, as observable by everyone in it, everything is still being decided by the author. The author can break every established idea or rule he has ever introduced, as he is above and external to the laws of the setting he created. If he wants to get drunk and turn the whole think into some bizarre meta-narrative where the inhabitants realize they're being written by some hack, then he can.

However, that doesn't make him any less above and external to the setting.

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>>55230513
My definition is the modern definition, you're just stupid. The idea of magic as pure willworking and nonsense is not remotely the most common version of magic.

The fact that most magic is formed into the magic systems you claim to hate with precise powers and triggers isn't by accident, thats how the concept of magic has long been understood.

You draw the circle, say the magic words, and the god shows up.

You hold the keys and the staff and speak in latin three times and lightning shoots from the staff.

You understand the universe, and you can move it through force of will by particular consistent methods.

Western magic is just mystical science mixed with theology.
>>55230572
This anon gets it.

>>55230470
>magic is a science that happens to not be true
this, obviously. it's how magic is handled even in basic shit like d&d.

>>55230470
This guy gets it.

>>55230513
This guy is a retard.

>>55230596
You seem to have poor reading comprehension.

>>55230541

Except it wasnt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe

>itt magic is wrong, but still happens to work

then it's not magic numb nuts.

>>55230562
I watched that video too, m80. The description of the theory is
>this doesn't actually make sense given our observations, but it works mathematically
which is used as a framing device for talking about transformations and the weird way that matter-antimatter looks a lot like forward-backward in time, as well as the way particles are vibrations in a field rather than discrete individual things.

>>55230644
I'm just saying you should write them to suggest they make a second video clarifying that. Because a lot of people are talking about the one electron idea solely because of that video.

>>55229729

Well OP, how plastic is your definition of magic? Do you mean being able to 'conform reality to will' and then doing some Matrix level shit? Because you could say in a hard sci fi setting that say goes with the idea of a simulated universe, within some 'programmable' and calculable way, you can alter the equation (programming) to achieve 'reality' breaking effects, i.e., magic. But it certainly does not seem like you could, at least in a western mindset of a setting bring together the wholly spiritual and quantifiable things without diminishing one as the other under some guise.

>All magic is hermetic
Well, time to abandon the thread. Let the retards fill it with shit and drool until it sinks.

>>55230659
They can't be held accountable for every retard who misinterprets a concept they present. Absurd hyperbole and misrepresentation is practically the only way people hear about any scientific concept over here in burgerstan.

>>55230536
You idiot, he's saying that 40K and Star Wars are science fantasy.

>>55230691
>>hey, what would a sci-fi setting with magic look like
>well, it wouldn't because all magic acts this way
>>but there's been historical beliefs in magic that doesn't act this way
>well shit I guess you're retarded
Nice.

>>55230522
>>55230536
>>55230591

No, you guys misunderstand me. I'm saying that 40k and SW are science fantasy, not what I wrote up there. Which probably doesn't come close to hard sci fi either, but fuck, I tried.

>>55230503
Thanks!

>>55230642
wrong.
if it works in a fictional universe, then it is not wrong in that fictional universe.
it can't exist in a hard scifi scenario, since that would make it not hard scifi.

>>55230691
you're one of those people who gets really angry when people call a "wyvern" a "dragon", i bet.

>>55230725
Hard science fiction would be fiction about someone in LEO doing maintenance on the a !Hubble or !IIS or something.

At the most they visit Mars or a passing asteroid in person.

>>55230725
If all of the future technology is based on magic where people are drawing glyphs and runes then it's science fantasy. Cool concept though.

The whole concept of hard sci fi is that everything is inline with our modern understanding of physics, or at least as close as it can get. If you introduce things that toss physics out the window then it's not hard.

>>55230781
Unless things generally work by hard sci-fi rules, with distinct exceptions that are clearly something fundamentally "other".

Here we go again.

Mongs saying that science and magic are mutually exclusive, when it entirely depends on the author writing it out.
Having magic as a science doesn't strip it of being, well, magic.

Goddamn you people.

The magic in D&D -is- fundamentally a science/art as practiced by wizards, yet you don't see them screaming "by the powers of science if turn you into a newt!"

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>>55230757

>>55230697

The only idiot here is you mate.

>>55229729
Quantum mechanics using quantum computer to effect the probabilities of an outcome. I'm thinking of using advanced computational crystal as a small scale quantum computer that can interact with quantum particles on a sub-monocular level. Therefore allowing for a science fiction magic loosely based on quantum mechanics theory. String theory might also be able to play a role as it suggest ,in my understanding, that matter is based on sound and frequencies, explaining "incantation" based magic. I'm not a scientist though.

hard science fiction concerns itself only with things that are theoretically possible in the world as we know it.
magic is almost always an additional force of nature, one which, as far as we know, does not exist in the world as we know it.
magic doesn't have to be unscientific in the universe it exists in, but it doesn't seem to exist in our reality.
therefore hard science fiction cannot contain magic.

>>55230793
We're sitting here arguing about science, magic, dragons, and literary genres and you're going to say he's the only idiot in this thread?

>>55230138

Thats a lot of fiction that isn't magical then, like Full Metal Alchemist, Warcraft ect.

I think what you mean is more mysticism.

>>55230824
mysticism is a type of magic, specifically a belief that you can gain knowledge beyond knowing.

>>55230817
You can take hard science fiction and apply magic to it.

But you'd need to find another name for the style.

>>55230849
>gain knowledge beyond knowing
that's literally called science

lel

Since when does having understandable magic make it not magic?

>>55230759
>>55230781
Fair enough. Under that definition, then (which I'm not sure I accept as absolute, mind you), hard sci-fi and magic are wholly, intrinsically incompatible.

>>55230858
that's kind of my point, it's not like you can't do it.
it's just not HARD scifi anymore at that point.

>>55230885
Correct.

>>55230892
Pretty much, yeah. It would be cool if done properly.

>>55229961
Magic has to be observable though. Every magic portrayal in any piece of fiction has been obsefvable in some way.

>>55229729
Science is just the understanding of the natural forces of our world. Often, in fiction, "magic" is added, being some sort of additional force in a world otherwise similar to our own, which in not understood, as opposed to "science, typically being forces we have in our world, which is understood in the fictional world.
Can some natural forces be very present in a hard sci-fi world, and yet, not understood?
Yes. But it would be rather silly.

>>55230865
You're as dense as lead.

>>55230899
Modern fantasy, ie fantasy set within the near past, present, or near future, would be an example of what you're looking for.

>>55230578
You're retarded completely on accident.

>>55230691
Westerners created the most rigid and defined system(s) of magic in the world. Of course it didn't work, but it's a good start for magical realism.

>>55230931
>magical realism
You've taken us to contradiction levels that shouldn't be possible.

This is getting hazardous.

>>55230812
Same
Additionally using the hologram theory we can just take information and make things happen. For example if we were to say want to make a fire then we could simply input the coding of the information of fire and other variables and we would have fire. How and where we could do these inputs I'm not sure though that could be your MacGaffun.

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>>55230885
Yeah basically. Hard Sci fi was made as a response to star wars and pulp science fiction, which played fast and loose with the laws of physics. Trying to inject what's antithetical to hard sci fi into it defeats the purpose of making hard sci fi in the first place.

The point is that the author is constrained by what's possible to do in real life. If remove the constraints by adding magic, then the whole purpose of hard sci fi is lost since the magic added to the work can do anything the author wants it to.

>>55230918
>Modern fantasy, ie fantasy set within the near past, present, or near future, would be an example of what you're looking for.
Urban fantasy? I think those are two rather different things. Taking some magic and applying it to a realistic, rational modern universe isn't really the same.

>>55230954
Fantasy is inherently unrealistic.

The question is how close to realistic can you make it?

>>55230931
Magical realism is already a thing, anon, and it's very nearly the opposite of what you're using it as

>>55230969
>Yeah basically. Hard Sci fi was made as a response to star wars and pulp science fiction,
I don't think that's right..

>>55230996
I wouldn't say urban, urban implies being set in a city or town environment.

A big issue with literary genres is they're not consistent and vary greatly in meaning and content between publishers.

>>55230954
Okay numbnuts let me ask you something, what would you call our world if it turned out that alchemy worked and modern chemistry didn't?

What if there were only four elements instead of 100+?

What if there existed a race of aliens who would really help out anyone who asked them in their native tongue and performed the proper modes of address?

You'd call it science. You need to learn that the only difference between real science and fake science is that one is empirically verified and the other isn't. Its entirely easy to imagine a world where a given theory is false and an alternative is true, unless you lack all creativity.

Do you think the learned scholarly mages of D&D don't imagine themselves as wise, learned men who understand how their world works? Do you think they perceive themselves as unscientific?

Of fucking course not.

>>55230470
where does occultism fit in this?

>>55231010
>I don't think that's right..
What is incorrect about that statement?

>>55231010
I don't think both of you are even on the same page as to what 'magical realism' actually means.

>>55231028
>Okay numbnuts let me ask you something, what would you call our world if it turned out that alchemy worked and modern chemistry didn't?
Fantasy

>What if there were only four elements instead of 100+?
Fantasy

>What if there existed a race of aliens who would really help out anyone who asked them in their native tongue and performed the proper modes of address?
Fiction likely written for children.

>You'd call it science.
That'd be dumb.

>Do you think the learned scholarly mages of D&D don't imagine themselves as wise, learned men who understand how their world works?
Sure they do, doesn't mean they're right. Something demonstrated time and time again in various published settings.

>Do you think they perceive themselves as unscientific?
A lot of published casters actually don't have a correct understanding of the scientific method. Ultimately, how they perceive themselves doesn't matter. A loon who think's he's a genius is still a loon.

>>55231088
My understanding is it's a literary genre, and an oxymoron.

>>55231091
My God, your stupidity is unbelievable. You literally can't even fathom that in a fantasy world, the real world's systems are the fantasy and the fantasy's worlds are the science!

You remind me of that stupid shit in Voyage of the Dawntreader who got pissy when told a star lost its job in Narnia and came down to earth saying stars are millions of miles wide, and then didn't understand when told he was in a parallel universe with different fucking laws.

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>>55231257
>parallel universe with different fucking laws.
sounds like fantasy to me.

>>55231303
Well maybe somewhere there's a fantasy world where you're less of a retard. Oh who am I kidding, fantasy is supposed to be believable.

>>55231257
>star came down to earth
wait, how did a star in Narnia come down to Earth? especially when stars are just holes in the blindfolds pulled over our eyes to keep the true nature of the universe hidden from us?

>>55231257
Tell me. If magic is observable and replicable, is it still magic?

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>>55231314

>>55231314
Take a deep breath anon. It's going to be okay.

>>55231329
Its semantics at that point. By most definitions of magic, yes its still magic.

The only magic type in fiction that is entirely outside of 'science', is a type that is either completely random or is pure willworking on the level of "Think it and it happens"

And the latter is still at least vaguely comprehensible, even if its outside the realm of empirical knowledge.

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>>55231329
Clarke's Third Law, yada yada

>>55231359
semantics is a very important thing. let's not casually dismiss it when it suits us.

Discussing the fine details of magic is one of the weak points of /tg/

You're all retarded, through and through.

>>55231257
>world has magic as a hard force of the universe
>author still calls it magic

Immersion has been broken. Shit setting relative ham.

>>55231366
So having magic as a science doesn't make it not-magic. Ok.

>>55231053
That hard sci-fi came about as counter-culture to Star Wars et al. Depending on how strict you want to be with it, even Verne may qualify.

>>55231088
Yeah, that's my point. It's already a (sub)genre. Associated with Latin American authors of the 20th century like Garcia Marquez and Cortazar, I believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism

>>55231387
Depends on who you ask.

Ask a fantasy author? They might agree with that. Or not. Depends on the author.

Ask a scientist or an engineer? They'll ignore you because they have better questions to answer.

>>55231329
Being observable or replicable doesn't mean something has to be understandable, so yeah.

>>55231387
Look at D&D

Magic is a science, or an art, yet you don't see Wizards calling it science, even though they refer to it as an "arcane science".

You don't call a chicken 'Gallus gallus domesticus', you call it a fucking chicken.

>>55231445
>implying understanding magic strips it of being 'magic'

>>55231473
You probably believe magocracies are logical in fantasy settings too.

>>55231501
Why wouldn't they be, assuming the magic system is consistent with it?

>>55231501
They're too logical if you ask me.

Though it depends on the magic system and power levels.

>>55231448
>He still doesn't realize that his definition of magic is the more obscure one and most forms of magic in fiction operate as formal systems.

>>55231516
shit fucking taste.

>>55231536
I think you've responded to the wrong post.

>>55229729

Yeah Echopraxia by peter watts. Though it's less arcane magic and more divine, it's very subtle, and pretty indirectly affects the story.

I'd explain more, but I don't think /tg/ has spoilers. It's a good book though.

>>55231536
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but ok. Having a formal system of magic doesn't eradicate it from being magic.

>>55231547
>possible martial fag

Do you hate wizards, Anon?

>>55231536
>he thinks D&D magic is obscure

:^)

>>55231594
Not at all I enjoy wizards. Now, "wizards" in a shit system like 3.pf or 5e? Well, I refuse to use those systems.

>>55231547
I'm not saying they're my personal preference (they usually reek of 3.5-esque author fiat for mages), I'm saying what it is that makes them illogical.

>>55231674
A society where government lies in the hands of only those with magic would not last long, unless everyone in the setting has magic, which at that point there's no point in having a distinct definition for it.

A society governed by magic itself and not magic users also doesn't make any sense. Unless your setting declares magic is a sentient thing, but then, how is that different than a society governed by a dictator?

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It would have to be something like pic related, where the magic is very matter of fact and minor, and the rest of the world is built around it.

>>55231729
If magic is powerful enough, it would work really -really- fucking well. It would be a horrible dystopia though.

>>55231784
If magic is that strong there would be no more commoners, as mages would have no need for them to exist as commoners. They'd either find a way to give them magic or get rid of them.

>>55231814
Nah, for all you know they could be keeping the masses around to fuel their dark magics without them even knowing it.

>>55231843
That's dumb.

>>55231893
You're dumb.

>>55231908
Still brighter than you.

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>>55231920
Claiming intellectual superiority over the internet is oft an indicator of the opposite.

>>55231936
Responding to obvious bait is generally a sure sign you're retarded.

>>55231970
But Anon, this is 4chan. We all have an excuse to act retarded.

>>55231984
Wait, we needed an excuse?

>>55230199
But baldur's gate was dog shit

>>55229729
Yes, but the magic isn't of the wizard-throw-fireball type. It's either 'ritual stuff and shit happens via coincidence' or 'pull tricks and hey presto here's a rabbit outta my hat' kind.
So 'magic' is either coincidence-engineering made precise, or illusions so subtle the universe flows with it. Then you can have things like writing programs that shift auspiciousness upon your company and ward off bad luck, or tricking the universe into pulling your ship out of that wormhole at just the exact location you want (instead of randomly).

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>>55229729
>He doesn't know.

>>55231568
/tg/ almost certainly has spoilers.

No, hard sci-fi exclusively refers to works that work within established principles of real world science and physics. Quantum fuckery is strictly hypothetical, so it's just sci-fi. You could have some sort of nanobots doing magic though, but it wouldn't magic and nanobots like that are approaching levels of wildly speculative fantasy technology like FTL which wouldn't qualify as hard sci-fi.

>>55230470
Magic as the imposition of will had been around since the inception of shamanism. The briefest read of Mauss or even Frazer will tell you that. I'm having trouble taking anything else you say seriously after a display of ignorance that shocking.

>>55229980
Then it becomes applied metaphysics, and as such, science.

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>>55229729
No you fucking moron

>>55229729
>hard sci if with magic
We call that soft sci fi

>>55234150
>like FTL which wouldn't qualify as hard sci-fi.
FTL is allowed in hard sci-fi. It's the one exception.

>>55229729

Yeah, magic is just a so awesome technology that everyone thinks its just magic.

Or is so awesome that it can not be understood, so people use rituals and stuff to use it.

>>55229729
Hard sci-fi is a meme

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>magic in anything post dark ages

>>55229729
Magic being an advanced enough technology.

>>55230470
People often forget that alchemy, the great work part was also part philosophical as well.

>>55229729
>Can it be done?
of course.
Imagine a hard sci fi setting - essentially modern technology - with space stations and multi stage rockets. Perhaps 100 - 500 years in the future to add the "fiction" element.

Now add magic.

It's not rocket science.

>Hard Sci-fi
>magic

/tg/ you're fucking retarded.

>>55229729
Read Brandon Sanderson's works to see how a master does it.

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>>55230506
You, I like.

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>>55229729
With Tech-Magic

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>>55243593

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>>55229729
So, Foundation?

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>>55243611

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>>55243651

>>55229729
>>55230308
(Almost) literally this.
https://qntm.org/ra

>>55243611
>>55243651
And it goes directly into my character art folder.
sci-fi GMs gotta sci-fi

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>>55243754
Ok ill dump some more

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>>55243772

>>55230506
thats similar to the red dwarf luck virus in practice

>>55229729
You could have an elder race make a sort of wish field. It interacts with complex patterns like the recitation of certain sentences in a sentient creatures mental substrate (spells) or harmonically in natural formations (cave of wonders, random lights, floating bits of rock). Make it powered from a centralised singularity that harnesses the power of another dimension or something. The elder race has died and their language is too complex for any successor races to comprehend. They have hard scifi stuff but in their galaxy they also live in this field.

40k has Enuncia but i'm not sure 40k counts as hard scifi

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>>55243789

>>55229729
No, that's retarded Hard Science Fiction means that the physics of the setting are as close as possible to the physics of the real world. Magic doesn't exist in the real world, therefore it wouldn't exist in a hard sci-fi setting.

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>>55243806

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>>55229729
>Hard science fiction, but with real, quantifiable magic. Can it be done?

Yes, you will need to take the "alternate science" approach, but it can be done.

After all the "hardness" of sci-fi is a scale, not an on-off thing. After all there is a fiction part to it.
So with science-magic alone you would step back from "autistic diamond science fiction" but would be probably over medium hardness sci-fi. Depending on how powerfull said magic is you could end up at the same hardness as orginal Traveller. OT is considered "hard enough" by most people, like low carbon steel.

So magic powered FTL drives and efficient force fields sound neato to me.

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>>55243822

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>>55243843

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>>55243822
sorry no laser fidget spinners.

>>55243822
is that hammerhead doing yoyo tricks?

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>>55243842
This, hardness is a scale, not something you do or do not.

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>>55243862

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>>55243889

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>>55243873
Hey, maybe has ADHD or Autism and needs it.

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>>55243904

>>55229729
Here's the problem with it: for magic to feel like magic it needs to be one of a few things.

1. Have an element of the unknown or randomness in it. If gasoline were magic it would burn reliably 8/10 times. The other 2/10 times it would do something completely different and very weird and no one would know why.

2. It needs to be connected to the more "ethereal" things in life. Souls, feelings, that sort of thing.

3.it needs to subvert other laws of physics and allow things to happen that would be impossible otherwise.


To me, when I think about sci-fi and magic, the thing that comes to mind is the quote about any advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. So what I would do, in order to create the "Magic" in that sort setting, is to create technology that does amazing things, make it mildly unstable, and then connect it to emotion or minds or whatever. Set up its exact abilities and capacities, but then don't tell the players.

So long as it remains mysterious, it remains magical, even if it can be used reliably much of the time.

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>>55243922

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>>55243935

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>>55243880

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>>55243952

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>>55243971

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>>55243980

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>>55243929
>>55243842

To be fair, i think that magic as narrative force can have clear rules and still work, many modern interpetations have shown that.
Also halfm solid rules are as old as the witchhunts themselve, with clear and organized rituals and lists to achieve the desired effect.

2. So FTL goes through the ghost plane ? sign me the fuck up mate!

3.Highly subjetive and personal taste.
But i can see that ours differs and i can respect that.

Rock on you good anon.

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>>55244000

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>>55243959
hmmm,slowly it's getting hard to seperate the good art in my folder from the space harlots.

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>>55244036

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>>55244062

>>55230288
Yes.
Dnd doesn't really have magic in it.

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>>55244024
>So FTL goes through the ghost plane ? sign me the fuck up mate!

All aboard the S.S. Wraithfucker

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>>55244071

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>>55244178

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>>55244208

>>55231091
God it's like you're actively trying to miss the point

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>>55244223

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>>55244238

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>>55244250

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>>55244258

>>55229729
nanotechnology that was mysteriously spread across the entire universe. It's so far beyond our understanding that we can't even figure out how to get rid of it.

Or just do the CoC thing and call it hypergeometry

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bag guys

>>55244285
forgot to add, obvs we can control/manipulate it with passphrases, but it takes work, and a mental component since it's in our brain

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>>55244305

>>55229729
>Real magic
As opposed to fake magic?

>>55243922
>US/English Markings and US colour scheme
>russian BMPT-72 turret
>commander's hatch and cupola intact but not enough interior room for a child
triggered

>>55230021
Halo, even the 343 shitfests, are harder sci-fi than Mass Effect

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Locations

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>>55244670

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>>55244679

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>>55244701

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>>55244719

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>>55244728

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>>55244736

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>>55244748

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>>55244755

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>>55244770

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>>55244776

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>>55244782

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>>55244787

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>>55244866

>>55229729
ooh i like this thread

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>>55244874

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>>55244903

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>>55244914

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>>55244924

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>>55244930

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>>55244937

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>>55230021
Truly a master baiter.

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>>55244950

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>>55244960

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>>55244967

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>>55245027
Taking a break

>>55229729
Hard science fiction? Nah, I don't think so.
I think Guilty Gear is an okay magitek concept, and Blazblue, while similar in weebness, is sort of okay with its use of Ars Magus.

>>55230470
While I like what you've written, you gotta be careful. Astrology and Alchemy both attempt to be _scientific_, but that does not mean that they are _sciences_.

>>55230812
Sorry. If you're looking for science words to use to justify your magic, sure. But if you're trying to tie quantum mechanics to magic in an even slightly plausible or rationalizable way, whatever you've written here is unintelligible garbage.
t. a researcher working in quantum information science

>>55244883
Outside of the pictures being dumped, it's a very dumb thread.

>>55244455
Well considering real magic is fake, what's the difference?

>>55235580
Like the com-star baby!

before draconian combine smashed the a-hole out, the com-star workers would chant and do rituals under the belief that the ancient technology required it.

or weeabo like outlawstar, and have casters (guns) that shoot enchanted bullets.

I guess if you treat magic as just another strand of science you could do it that way. like having labs etc.