>Casters rule, martials drool. Why are ttrpgs so afraid of

>>55191087
It's a western culture thing. There's no tradition of internal power (it's there in the myths, but not as a major constant) like the east. And nu-fedoras can't into fantasy physics being different from IRL materialism.

One thing I like to do is just give some drawbacks to magic. One of my favorite is monsters that feed of arcane magic so they hunt wizards and the like. Gives me a nice encounter to pull out of no where as well.

>>55191381
I just make crits stupidly easy to roll for martials. It has the effect of making caster piss themselves.

>>55191087
You mean D and D.

>>55191087
Well, even D&D uses a Vancian magic system to reduce the utility of a magic user. For the most part.
It's a shame the West doesn't traditionally have a ki-like concept in its canon, as >>55191163
says. I quite like the idea of a mage getting power over the material world, but super-skilled "regular" people getting the ability to shrug off cannonballs and explosions with just their willpower and skin.
Also opens up half-and-half characters who aren't experts in either but can use both.

>>55191381
Yeah I agree magic needs some drawbacks here are the ones I currently run in my D&D games

>Can only cast a limited amount of spells per day
>Arcane casters limited to casting from their spellbook and screwed without one
>Spells require material components which can be difficult to acquire
>certain Spells require verbal and somatic elements so if a wizard is gagged or grappled they can't cast certain spells
>Spells require concentration so if a wizard gets attacked whilst casting their spells can fail
>Buffs can't be stacked that easily
>Wizards are fragile and can go down quickly in a fight so need the support of fighters
>There's specific enemies that can counter magic and that are spell resistant

>>55191087
D&D limited casters for years and Gygax was thinking that more restrictions were needed in 2e before he was removed. Even then, casters only got let totally off the hook when WotC took over the game and started nudging it towards M:tG's logic.

>>55192205
>Rope trick + rest
>What are anything but wizards
>Also wizards letting anyone near their spellbooks
>Getting grappled/gagged
>Buffs can't be stacked eas-hahahaha
>Wizards taking HP damage
>Spell resistance mattering against assay resistance and caster level checks
You could stop pretending you've played high level DnD. Casters are busted, martials need a lot of help to feel like they contribute net to them.

>>55192346
This. In 3.5 it's trivial for Tier1 and 2 spellcasters to avoid the things that are supposed to keep their shit in check. The situation is better in 5e due to the concentration rules, but still slanted heavily towards casters.

>>55192092
I mean, it does. Superhero comics often feature characters who are effectively superhuman just through training or skill. The problem is that they're such a different genre from fantasy that people get just as unhappy when you try to insert "capeshit" into games like D&D as they do when you try to insert "weebshit."

>>55191087
Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>55191087
Because we have a frame of reference for the limitations of the physical. We don't have one for magic, which can be defined as "everything we don't understand".

Magic quite literally does the impossible, which is why game designers who don't have any talent or proper playtesting are inclined to make it nigh-limitless in potential.

I had an idea related to this recently.
What about giving martial characters extra bonuses to more meta stuff?

Like, give them a combat intuition or sixth sense. In fluff terms the character is simply very experienced and can predict things, but in game terms the DM would give them foreshadowing about their enemy's resources and combat capabilities. A skilled fighter may be able to give a good estimate about the number of goblins in a cave, for example, or be able to guess how the evil lord will field his army based on X and Y and Z.
You'd be giving your players insight into future events (with accuracy depending on level and possibly how much they upgrade this skill), which makes them much more valuable to the team. They could help your casters choose spells beforehand, and you could probably give them other bonuses. If they plan their formation, for example, they may be immune to ambushes, or something.

Just an idea.

>>55191163
which is double dumb because they acceept an internal power for paladins, they just call this power divine or mystical, bubt it's still energy that buffs up one's phyisical attributes

>>55191163
Well the greeks had pankration a martial art which had a concept pretty similiar to chi called pneuma.

>>55194404
so you're giving them magical abilities but pussyfooting around calling them that

>>55194621
Is bardic knowledge magic?

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>>55194621
>luck
>pluck
>scholarly strategist's cunning
>the experience of hundreds of battles with their life on the line
>"it's magic so no mechanics 4u! ;)"

Yeah no m8

>>55191087
The answer isn't necessarily to limit casters, but to expand martials.

Bending, Hokuto Shinken & its various offshoots, magical weapons, all these open up possibilities & expansions.

>>55191087
I'm played plenty that aren't afraid of limiting casters. The only ones that seem afraid of limiting casters that I've played have all been D&D variants.

>>55191087
You do realise games other than D&D exist right?

>>55198608
Obviously not.
They're not even aware of 4e.

>>55191087
In the GURPS basic Magic system, powerful magic is fatiguing and the means to get more energy (in the form of stones which contain it) can be directly control by the game master. If the GM was a dick, he could also limit skill level - because having high skill reduces the cost of spells.

>>55199591
controlled* not "control."

What games manage to balance martials and mages the best?
I see a lot of examples posted about games that balance that sort of thing poorly, but what are some examples we should follow instead of avoid?

>>55202260
D&D 4e

>>55191087
Magic is entirely based on perception. It's useful against dumb peasants, but the spread of scientific knowledge is weakening it as a whole. One of the most powerful tricks against a mage is just to truly believe what is happening isn't real.

Kind of like "fairies don't exist" could kill fairies.

Magic itself is exhausting to do, difficult to train, and controlled by one group.

I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.

But anyway, you could still increase their power by simply ignoring real world physics and biology, which is somethign you already do in fantasy.

Due to whatever reason you want to bullshit on, training causes their musles to grow denser and their body to form stronger carbon bonds.
Carobin fibers and metals are embedded into their bones making the stronger and more flexible, and their skin grows with minerals asorbed in, making it tougher and more resistant.
The type of training and battles they go through will increase various aspects of their physical pewer and defense. As well as their stamina and their recovery and healing rate.
Their focus and oncentration improve as well, giving them enhanced senses and reactions. So they can for instance feel an attack coming by the ari movement on their skin.
They also gain a degree of control on their bodies. Beng able for instance to close an injury to prevent bleeding, or to sweat out large amounts of water to ptrotect themselves from a fire, and to use the humidity in the air that they breathe to quickly replenish their liquids.

It's fantasy, what stops you?

>>55202345
>I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.
Because giving them a counter to mages isn't making them as cool as mages, it's making mages as shitty as them.

>>55192618
>Superhero comics often feature characters who are effectively superhuman just through training or skill.
That's actually incredibly rare, and limited typically to magic characters and the occasional Wuxia-esque cape. Pretty much anyone with super powers gains them from some source, if they weren't born with them.

>>55194621
>Anything that isn't hitting things with a stick is magic.
Ebin.

>>55202438
there's plenty of "normal human" characters who perform superhuman feats. Like batman, or any character who shoots arrows

>>55202399
>making martials better makes mages worse

What kind of screwed up zero-sum philosophy is that?

>>55203606
Giving martials anti-magic powers does not give martials awesome power, it renders the casters' awesome power useless. The martial still better, he's lowering the competition to his level. That's why the suggestion of just making them resistant to magic does nothing to improve the situation.

>>55203754
>still isn't* better

>>55191163
The thing is, we do. Western civilisation might not have a formal internal power like chi, but mythology and fiction is full of people who can do incredible things because of great personal ability from Greek heroes to Arthurian knights and pulp adventurers.

The problem is just D&D's reference base. It drew heavily on Conan for Fighting Men and Rogues, and originally drew on Vance for magic. However when third edition rolled around they just slapped together anything they thought was cool.

>>55202399
Literally nothing in that post gives martials anti-magic. You're just a paranoid fag who's afraid of having to share the spotlight with someone even after picking the "optimal" class.

>>55204020
>I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.
>improves their physical stats and defense against magic
>defense against magic
I prefer playing martials myself desu. But I also prefer 4e where none of this is an issue to begin with

>>55203754
making then durable and resistant to magic attacks doesn't give them anti-magic powers. Nor does it make casters useless. It just gives martials a fighting chance against casters.
>he's lowering the competition to his level
>That's why the suggestion of just making them resistant to magic does nothing to improve the situation.
making them resistant to magic is the contrary of lowering the competition to his level. It's raising him to the level of the competition.

>>55204446
Let me rephrase it then. It's giving martials passive buffs. Passive buffs are boring. The goal is to make martials not boring. This does not help.

>>55191087
>Why are ttrpgs so afraid of limiting casters just a smidge so that there's at least one or two things martials can do that casters can't?
Have you tried playing D&D

Most of the caster hate comes from D&D 3e / Pathfinder.

You can fix those systems easily enough with a couple house rules, provided your players aren't the sort to break out into autistic screeching over it.

5e is close enough that my players don't care. The notion of 'tiers' still exists, but the extremes are gone.

>>55204977
You mean actually following the rules. A caster in 3.5 needs reagents for each spell, many of which could be rare or not easy to restock on

>>55205309
A majority of it is extremely inconsequential shit on par with bellybutton flint.

>>55202260
GURPS Basic Magic system, assuming you have a competent GM who doesn't give the caster a bunch of easy ways to get energy for spells (powerstones, enchanted items, etc.).

>>55205309
>You mean actually following the rules.
Actual rules:
>A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

>>55192346
>3.5

Due to the fluff and flavor of my campaign world, I'm considering making casters + clerics into one support magic user style class.

The only problem is I'm not sure if people would want to play them.

>>55204977
With the exception of Moon Druid but autistic fucks don't play them for some reason.

>>55191087
>Due to my strength I can single handidly uproot a small tree or knock over structural supports.
>With My amazing Constitution I can confidently trick another into finishing my drink of poisoned mulberry wine knowing I'll survive long enough to receive medical attention whilst they won't.
>Alternatively my Dexterity is that of a Rogues, and everyone knows the tricks they can perform.

As a general rule Martials do lose out on utility in return for higher combat prowess, but if you lack inspiration you won't find much to do in Roleplay games.

Also shitty editions are shit, if consensus is that the game is shit for balance houserule balance or play another game.

>>55191087

Why limit castersv
and not just buff martials?

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Because people don't read epic poetry, they don't know about all the crazy shit Knights got up to.

Have you tried not playing D&D? Actually, I take that back, as 4E legitimately fixed that issue.

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>>55202345
>I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.
The weird thing is that D&D already has this. If you're high enough level then certain spells like Sleep and Cloudkill just don't work on you. Wizards also need more valuable gems if they want to trap your soul or turn you into an undead, and they can even measure how much it takes.

>>55194621
>logic and strategy = magic
I guess military generals and chess players are wizards by that logic.

>>55205309
Way better to just nerf spells that cause problems rather than spend ages doing wizard fetch quests.

>>55191381

Symbaroum makes a good system of this. Overdraw your magic and you start gaining permanent Corruption. Once that passes a threshold, you start getting blightmarks, which make you a target for even the peoples you might have tentatively called your allies. Eventually that Corruption surpasses your ability to store it, and results in direct character death, the PC becoming a mindless NPC that is immediately hostile and only bestially intelligent, though perhaps a bit more clever when it comes to employing the PC's skills in life as they are now in NPC death.

Magic becomes a huge liability, because if you overdraw your magic abilities, you suffer a condition that becomes very difficult to even mitigate, and is often more convenient to hide than to go to the extreme and sometimes fatal lengths it would take to cure. Of course, some powers and artifacts actually give you extra power based on your PC's corruption value, so there's incentive to walk the line and accept corruption, but every ounce of overdrawn power brings you one step closer to being damned.

>>55214454
Interesting pic, what is it from?

>>55199462
>Martial: Muscle-Wizards
>Divine: God-Wizards
>Nature: Dirt-Wizards
>Arcane: Wizard-Wizards
4e was a caster-only game, anon.

>>55216988
If you define "caster" as "class able to function in its intended role", then sure.

>>55216988
Everybody always forgets Psionics and Primals.

>>55191087
Does she rip off his nipple in this picture?

>>55217341
>Once a day, I can pull off a super-power. Clearly that's not casting magic.
>Only one edition of DnD functions.
>We talk about classes having 'roles', which is basically something invented by MMOs, but don't you fucking dare mention vidya about my precious 4e.
Don't know why I bother.

>>55210922
because some anime character might have done whatever buff you suggest once, thereby forever making it "weebshit". Even if characters from Western myths had been doing it for thousands of years the moment some willowy teenager with saucer sized eyes and pointy hair does it you can throw any other examples away in the eyes of /tg/

>>55217454

>We talk about classes having 'roles', which is basically something invented by MMOs, but don't you fucking dare mention vidya about my precious 4e.

3.5 Classes had roles too, as did AD&D. I mean 'the fighter is there to protect the squishy guys' has basically been the core of D&D forever. Classes have also had limited use powers beyond spells for god damn ages. The Bard can only sing so much, the Barbarian can only rage so much etc.

>>55217454
Because you get off on yelling "fuck u, ur wrong" in response to people rationally explaining this stuff to you and nobody being able to confront you on it because we're on an anonymous image board.

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>>55194404
You see, this is just the kinda thing that Good DM's do for good players and roleplayers when they invest their very few skill ranks into a "Profession(Soldier)" stat and are okay with settling for starting with a 14 in strength just so they can qualify for both Combat Expertise and Leadership.

Shame that people don't work with their DM's with this kinda thing and try to find tools to get invested in the story via their mechanics in ways that aren't just arguing semantics about spell descriptions.

>>55217405
He does mention dirt-wizards.

>>55217705
>You see, this is just the kinda thing that Good DM's do for good players and roleplayers when they invest their very few skill ranks into a "Profession(Soldier)" stat and are okay with settling for starting with a 14 in strength just so they can qualify for both Combat Expertise and Leadership.

Alternatively: Why not build it into the class? Roleplaying and mechanics are not enemies.

>>55214568
>logic and strategy

reread that post
>>55194404
>sixth sense
>foreshadowing about their enemy's resources and combat capabilities
>insight into future events

you're giving them divination powers

>>55217765

>you're giving them divination powers

Sherlock Holmes is a divination wizard?

>>55217765
>you're giving them divination powers
And burning someone with a torch is actually casting a fireball.

>>55217765
It looks like this faggot clearly doesn't understand the differences between some (Ex) and some (Su) powers that actually have similar effects.

Learn 2 system mastery faggot

>>55203815
That's not same at all. The whole point of chi is that it's a universal energy where mastery and discipline gets you great results. Western power is outside help or is plain innate skill.

>>55217765
>intuition is magic

Is this autism?

>>55217838
What kind of magic is autism?

>>55217838
It is when it gives effects that surpass what you could achieve with Sense Motive or Perception skill check, anon.

>>55217838
what that anon was proposing was beyond intuition
>I feel that there are 20 goblins in this ccave
>i feel that the enemy has a huge army

one should be able to reconstruct something based on hints, if he has high intuition or strategy.
if he has a "sixth sense" then it goes beyond that and into the real of magic

>>55217869
So roll it into a very tough perception/sense motive and have the power give a +20 bonus when using the skill for that purpose.

Of course, if you weren't retarded, you'd notice that this is functionally the same, except for extra steps to placate your 'tism.

>>55217869
I guess hard-boiled detectives that know when trouble's afoot are wizards. I guess a brilliant strategist that can predict his opponent's plans before he makes them are sorcerers.

Making a martial character slightly more proficient than the average human being in our current, modern, real world does not equate to making them magic. This kind of reasoning is how you get bullshit like high level Monks in Pathfinder being worse at punching people than certain real human beings.

>>55217882

>I feel that there are 20 goblins in this ccave

That sounds like something a ranger could do by looking at tracks heading in and out of a cave (If he was good enough)

>>55217869

What about abilities that say, expand the skill's capabilities? Like how a rogue can hide in ways a wizard can't without using spells and can sneak attack people because he's got training the wizard doesn't?

Just have all melee run around with null magic rings and full masterwork equipment.

>>55217901
that is not a sixth sense nor intuition nor a foreshadowing which is what the original poster was suggesting.

>>55218008
>get smashed by dragons whose skin their weapons can't even penetrate.

>>55218042
There's no such thing as penetration immunity in D&D
If anything full martials with full BAB have a better chance of penetrating dragon-hide or even ESPECIALLY Terrasque-hide than anything else, thanks to how AC is handled.

Only inanimate objects and constructs have structural hardness as attributes.
And even then, the closest that creatures can have is DR X/Adamantine, which Adamantine is literally a special material that is essentially useless in the hands of anything BUT a pure martial. Shit doesn't even have to be magic, just made from some fucking naturally occuring space rock.

Sorry to say it mate, but you're objectively wrong by the canon rules of like the top 3 most popular RPG systems.

>>55217882
>what that anon was proposing was beyond intuition
And? Those are heroes that have skills beyond the possible.

>>55218128
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm
>Adamantine

>This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/- if it’s light armor, 2/- if it’s medium armor, and 3/- if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

>wyrm... DR 20/magic

Jeez, would you look at that... Adamantite weapons do dick all to dragons.

>>55218251
And while we are at it

>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

>An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

>>55191087
D&D reference
There're tons of myths and traditions that have martials as superhuman, but D&D, by being among the first rpgs and the most famous, introduced the notion of martials being just dudes who swing metal rods more or less ok and casters daily basis reality benders able to create demiplanes easily. Now everybody is influenced by this notiong and the pool is contaminated

>>55192205
If you go by the book all of that is piss easy to pass. I hope you reworked stuff.

>>55217893
Making them slightly more proficient than average human being isn't enough to narrow the power gap between them and wizards by far, anon, which was the entire point to begin with. What use is a hard-boiled detective's intuition when his quarry can change the very nature of reality at his whim?

>>55217893
My current monk moves at 500 kmph, can fall from any high without taking damage and can punch through adamantine like it's butter, he's still billion times worse than our wizard. Even making martials clearly superhuman doesn't work

>>55191499
Or GURPS

>>55191381
Cast time and remove the feats that make silent casting possible.

They cast a spell and EVERYONE will know it and have time to stab their 1d6 hp ass.

>>55218350
>Wings of cover
>Emergency Force Sphere
>All those immediate action spells that say "nope" to attacks

>Fixing casters
>Fixing martials
People really don't understand how ingrained in the system is caster supremacy and martial shittiness,

Just an example
Did you know that 1/4th of the distance you cover in a long jum is the height you reach? so, if you jump farther than 40ft you reach higher than 10ft, easy. Well, did you know that if you fall from a distance you take 1d6 damage per every 10ft and fall prone? Well, there you go, your monk can jump super high thanks to his speed, class features and skills? doesn't matter, he'll end prone everytime

Have to jump a 50ft chasm? prone at the end, ready to be shanked by the enemies in the other side
Have to jump from one roof to another in a exciting chase? prone everytime
Etc

Shit like this is everywhere, most of it is not obvious at all, and it keeps martials fucked

>>55218379
This is why magic should take time to cast.

>>55218413
Ah, yes, of course I meant motherfucking 3.PF which seems to be everyfucking where and among the most played games ever.

Do I sound mad? oh god yes I'm mad, because in my town nobody seems to play other systems.

>>55218379
Sometimes I don't understand D&D's design philosophy. They establish these difficulties or weaknesses that things like teamwork, planning or strategy would have to make up for, but then they make specific spells to completely ignore such problems.

>Wizards are known for low AC
Give them shield blur mirror image and a fuckton of other defensive spells that make them harder to hit than the fighter
>Even a short rest takes an extended period of time and the party must plan their adventures
lol nope just rope trick to an interdimensional safe zone where no one can touch you, or create and impenetrable dome you can see out of but nothing else can see into, or just fuck off to a goddamn private magical mansion
>PCs must procure food and water in harsh terrains or over long journeys
Naw just let the casters spawn fucking banquets they can dine on every night.
>diseases and poisons are subtle dangers PCs always have to be cautious of
Give casters easy cast spells to find and cure every ailment you could ever have. Hell let's make half the classes immune to those problems by default.

What is the sense behind this? Why would you make a game where you can obsolete every challenge by picking the solution out of a book? Why is an adventure game doing it's best to ignore adventuring challenges?

>>55218489
Caster supremacy. Devs aren't impartial, some even have their loved caster characters and want them to be even more powerful and special, that's why they add more stuff to casters.

>>55218413
>>55218422
>If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate).
3.5 PHB1 pg 77

Don't get me wrong, 3.5 is fucking stupid, and I could see the writers making the mistake you thought they made, but that isn't actually the case

>>55216627
"The wrong way to use healing magic"
Few chapters are out

>>55194404
Unfortunately, casters can already do that through divination.

>>55218580
Only if wizards take the spell and are ready to waste it

>>55218554
Unrelated actually
See: When you fall from any distance if you take damage from it you fall prone. You don't fall prone because of the jump, you fall prone because you take damage.

>>55191087
The problem with magic in some systems (COUGH, NOT NAMING NAMES) is this:

First, casters have too many options available, and many of these options end up infringing upon other classes' specialties. This is because designers think it's always good idea to add more caster spells... but it's not. A spell that lets you magically detect or disarm surrounding traps sounds cool, yes, but that's the rogue's job! Get rid of that shit. Same goes for "punching things real hard" as you've pointed out. The wizard/cleric should be able to do what no one else can do. He shouldn't be able to do what an extraordinarily skilled professional can do except better because lol magic.

Second is a ridiculous mindset exemplified by this post: >>55194621
A mindset according to which anything barely above human abilities is magic, and we can't have that, that's what wizards do (consequence: wizards get to do superhuman shit while everyone else can suck it). Which is completely absurd. Dragons and giants ignore real world physics, OR are somehow bathed in magic despite not being magical creatures. Your fighters and rogues should be the same.

tl;dr the issue in a nutshell: "wizards can do [other class] things, but [other classes] can't do wizard things"

>>55218617
Hmm, this is one of those areas where "specific overrides general" is sort of difficult, which one is being more specific? Always landing on your feet due to a successful jump or always falling prone after taking fall damage?

I guess you could just do a tumble check, but that brings up a much more broad problem with 3.5, the weird separation of skills that leaves some abilities split amongst multiple skills. Jump is already hyper-specific, and now you need another skill just to avoid hurting yourself while doing it

>>55218668
Tumble only saves you for the first 10ft, and that's why I mentioned jumping further than 40ft (more than 10ft of high distance).

Of course a sensible GM will ignore that shit, but sensible GMs are a incredible rare minority in D&D/Pathfinder, at least in my case.

>>55218668
You land on your feet, take damage from the fall and fall prone. It's quite simple.

>>55218668
>(when appropriate)
It seems to add a clause that sometimes you should fall prone, when taking damage from a fall for example.

>>55218619
Dragons and giants are magical creatures though.

Technically everything in the world is supposedly to be magical as the books like stating, but there's this block when it comes to mundanes and martial characters that denies them anything too unrealistic despite the world already rejecting realism outright. I think it comes from a need for having a frame of reference. If there's no true "mundane" in the world it's harder to grasp what is fantastic.

>>55218298
>>55218322
I'm well aware, and I'm not advocating that that guy's idea of giving martials little pittances of intuition based on experience is the solution.

The real problem is that magic is too powerful, versatile, and over-the-top. The easiest solution would be to weaken magic, but that's not fun for people that like to play casters. The adage is that it's more fun for players to buff a class than it is to nerf one.

The best solution I can come up with on the spot is to take the Exalted solution of having magic still be incredibly useful and valuable, but inferior in a fight to just hitting a guy. It'd make it more akin to Conan, where all of the sorcerers still have their awe-inspiring magic that can change the landscape, but they won't be doing much of it in the middle of a fight.

That said, 5e is honestly mostly fine with the balance without resorting to the 4e issue of homogenization. It's really only high level spells that start to get ridiculous, and I don't think many people even end up playing far enough to reach them. It's still dumb that they exist, though.

>>55218730
The massively powerful high-level spells are leftovers from the early editions where actually getting a frail caster up to such a high level means you earned that shit

>>55218730
>It's really only high level spells that start to get ridiculous
Spells start becoming ridiculous at level 3 and then ramps up from there.

I mean, look at Wind Wall for example, a spell that only costs a level 3 spell slot to cast but makes the user immune to mundane ranged attacks, as well as small flying creatures and gaseous creatures.

By comparison, what the fuck do most martials get at Level 5?

>>55218750
And martials got armies and castles for getting to high levels because that meant they were the ultimate badasses.

I'd be fine if that made a return, but it wouldn't fit the flavor of some characters.

>>55218730
>That said, 5e is honestly mostly fine with the balance without resorting to the 4e issue of homogenization. It's really only high level spells that start to get ridiculous, and I don't think many people even end up playing far enough to reach them. It's still dumb that they exist, though.
The imbalance is there from early levels in things like shield, knock, rope trick, detect whatever, cure disease/poison, create food/water, counterspell/dispel magic, etc. They just do way too much with most martials not even having equivalents
4e was the only time anything was balanced

>>55218789
Extra Attack. Which doesn't seem like much and it's kind of boring thematically, but it's a big damage boost. Wind Wall is really good, but martials will still generally be doing more damage more reliably with less cost than casters at that level. The problem is that, for most classes, that's ALL they'll be doing. Martials are better at damage, but casters are better at everything else. And they're not that much worse at damage.

>>55218824
Damage also stops mattering much when everything is an hp sponge and caster can simply end encounters with disabling effects. Martials and casters simply aren't playing the same game.

>>55218824
>. Wind Wall is really good, but martials will still generally be doing more damage more reliably with less cost than casters at that level.
Can they reliably one-shot everything that they come across? Can they reliably kill anything that they come across in one round?

If not, they aren't dealing enough damage and aren't even within the same ballpark as the caster, whose spells can reliably end an encounter in one round thanks to bounded accuracy and buffed DC's.

>>55218847
>>55218824
You two are talking about different editions and are both right

Also, I hate that the best way to be a fighter in 3.5 is to be a self-buffing cleric, and the best way to be a grappler in 5e is to be a lore bard

>>55218856
This is where the D&D defense force comes running in with excuses like "But they only have a limited amount of spell slots!", which while technically true, forces you to structure your adventures in such a way that takes this shit into account (i.e. always keep the time pressure on to force the team to have 6 encounters a day)

>>55218865

At least in 4e the best grappler was actually a Fighter. Monk was better at throwing people about the battlefield but fighters grabbed and held people in place better.

>>55218865
5e has damage sponge monsters and encounter ending spells too anon. I know they said they fixed things, but they lied.

>>55217864
One that prevents the target from feeling empathy towards others.

>>55191163
do asians have wizard figures? every magic using character in my chinese cartoons tends to be either a priest or a demon.

>>55218796
>be a stealthy rogue
>always followed by a fucking army

>>55218865
I thought the best grappler in 5e was that totem barb build where you grab enemies and drop them from ridiculous heights instead of hitting them.

>>55218889
That's a cultural thing Anon, there's no difference between religion and magic over there, It's one of the same.

>>55218489
I think it's because the devs think "fiction" is different from "exaggeration".

>A wizard from a 100% fictional source can put up a shield, create light, conjure food. Therefore wizards can do these things.
>A legendary fighter the likes of Hercules/King Arthur can throw a javelin across the horizon line... but that's just exaggeration.

I think an interesting idea would be for martial characters to gradually get magic items/enchantments as per character progression. So many "martial" heroes and legends have some kind of legendary weapon, but all that is separated into "magic items" at the mercy of the GM rather than part of character progression for the class. eg. Instead of the GM giving Excalibur/Avalon as loot, at 6th level a fighters weapon should start building strength on the path to becoming Excalibur.

Think about what's left behind when a hero dies. The wizard dies and he leaves behind knowledge, and all of his experiences in one spellbook. The Bard dies and she leaves behind stories and song to inspire future heroes, the Cleric leaves miracles in his wake and leaves his gods mark on the world, the legendary warriors leave behind their weapons and armour.

It's anime, but I think looking to the Fate/_____ series for inspiration would also work.
>Alexander can summon his chariot of Zeus and ride it with impunity, leaving lightening in his wake. He was a commander rather than a warrior, and so his greatest skill is to summon his army to fight with him.
>Lancelot was well known for his victory with a branch in a duel, therefore his skill is that where he can wield ANY item effectively as a weapon (Gain Weapon Proficiency: All) and they count has his specialty weapon (Scaling damage dice for his weapons).
>Diarmud has a spear that ignores armour and a spear that prevents injuries caused by it from healing.
>Assassin has a legendary skill where he strikes 7 times at once in order to guarantee a hit (Perma-haste or something)

>>55218941
made better by taking levels in lore bard to pick up athletics expertise and cutting words

>>55218525
Blame Monte Cook, he's fucking retarded, every game has has been involved with has been a unbalanced nightmare.

>>55218945
I like that idea

The fighter does not get magic weapons, he makes weapons he uses become magical by using them

The dagger develops the heartseeking precision that it was used with by the assassin, the shield of a knight grows better at defending the innocent. The fury of the barbarian imbues his maul, etc. etc.

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>>55218941
Totem barb falls if it tried to do anything in the air, because it would be too much to let a 14th lvl barb get unrestrained flight x times a day even if the wizard's been doing it since fucking 5th lvl.

God I hate what 5e has become.

>>55218977
>become
5e has always been shitty anon.

>>55219028

Well, it's not had enough updates to 'become' anything.

>>55219028
Once upon a time barbs flew unrestricted and were immune to all fall damage.

Once upon a time every martial had superiority dice.

Once upon a time sorcerers were a subclass of mages and wizards didn't exist.

Once upon a time there was an actually new and interesting version of D&D called D&D Next, and it was murdered by screeching grognards.
Their crime can never be forgotten or forgiven.

>>55218893
Yeah, like I said about the flavor. I think only Fighters got armies, but I was using it as the clearest example.

Obviously a Rogue should, instead, get a guild of thieves/assassins/explorers that sprout up under him.

>>55219152
4e had Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies to cover this shit, so you can pick your own.

There was one where you just became such a good thief you can steal concepts.

Or such an amazing pathfinder you just walk back from hell if you die.

Or have such a strong cult of personality that should you die, a follower takes your place, and the faith in "you" empowers him to act as you.

Or the one where a future version of yourself comes back in time to save you.

Or... goddamn there's a lot of cool shit here.

>>55218954
There is a feat that gives you expertise in athletics from one of the unearthed arcanas.

You would think in a setting where magic is so ubiquitous that it wouldn't be the case that only one group has the sole usage of it and it wouldn't penetrate nearly all levels of society.

referencing the pic in >>55214454 how would warriors and professional soliders not make use of magic as part of their training and military strategy? You can pack more intense training in a day and then have your mages heal the trainees of muslce/ligament strain so they can do it again the next day and then you could have people with supreme level of skill and training within a short period of time. Better if you find a way to circumvent the need for sleep.

Farmers could make use of this as well having people on hand to cure one of the farm hands when they slip and twist their ankle and hurt their backs taking in the harvest so in half the time you've managed to collect your crops that have also been helped with growing better by the druids and protected with wards provided the wizard to ensure evil creatures or spirits or whatever don't come along and corrupt your fields.

The problem is people are obessed with the idea of "low magic" and afraid of being too anime or simulating superhero settings and not realizing the level of magic they introduce would have such effects on their setting even as they insist on being logically consisttant. That said, it doesn't mean every setting with magic becomes tippyverse because tippyverse takes the mechanics of the magic as they are laid out in the rulebooks and applies it as a setting.

>>55218619
>A spell that lets you magically detect or disarm surrounding traps sounds cool, yes, but that's the rogue's job! Get rid of that shit.
I don't know shit, but couldn't you keep that kind of spell by locking it behind restrictions?
Like, you want a spell that disarm traps? Well you need to be able to do magic AND to know your shit about traps, so the spell can only be learned by rogue-wizard or some specialised class (I don't know, ninja or something).

If casters have too many options, couldn't you divide those options into more specialised caster classes?
Want to invoke water out of fin air? That's water magic, so you're no longer a wizard but an elementalist or maybe even an hydromancer which prevent you from getting, I don't know, dimension door or whatever.

That seems like the obvious answer to me, but again I don't know shit.

>>55219689
Nope, you are entirely correct.

You can have magic do anything, but you should not let the characters have access to all of it.

>>55219689

Precisly this. If you have an invisiblity spell it doesn't mean you know how to solid snake your way around a castle. Similarly being able to buff yourself doesn't mean you can out fight the fighter. Just because the mechanics of the game lets you do that doesn't mean it makes sense logically for a dude who spends 10 hours a day reading can somehow punk the fighter and outskill the rogue.

>>55219689
You're still kinda invalidating the rogue. Unless what you're suggesting is to basically replace standard rogue with a magic rogue

>>55219827

How is it still not a rogue if they use magic it's just magic more tailored to what they normally do

>>55219827
Maybe, but to me it would be a rogue variant, or an option for multiclassing.

>>55219907
It is a rogue. A magic rogue.

>>55218942
religion is also literally magic here. it's more of a question of occupation.

>>55218556
Danke.

>>55217770

The one from the Benedict Cumberbatch show is.

Starfinder actually limits casters pretty nicely. They're not ridiculous like they are in most d20 systems and are mainly support-based.

>>55218580
And?
A bit of redundancy is good. If one person gets knocked out of the party the rest can still function.

Or are you saying it's only okay if a wizard can take on roles of other classes, but other classes aren't allowed to do anything a wizard can even if they're using non-magical means?
Or should paladins not be allowed to use swords since fighters already have them?
Rogues already have sneaking abilities, so rangers shouldn't.

>>55218730
>that guy's idea of giving martials little pittances of intuition based on experience is the solution.
To be fair, I wasn't trying to say that is THE solution, but could be part of a larger solution. You know, expanding class utility of of strictly combat stuff.

>>55191087

I think i thought of something casters can't do
Syrvive being in close quarters with literally any enemy. Casting procs AoO, gettig hit forces a concentration check with a dc modified by the amount of damage dealt(10+spell level+damage(if concentration ramps too easy, a la 3.5, make it twice spell level and maybe twice damage)), and failing it wastes the spell slot. Make casters afraid again 2017.

>>55195587

Sometimes yes. Bards are magic.

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>>55218702
>If there's no true "mundane" in the world it's harder to grasp what is fantastic.
That's what fucking peasants and anyone without Class levels are for.

If you have a Level in your class you should already be better than at least 90% of the population, once your party hits level 10 you're the fucking Avengers and by 20 you should basically be the goddamn Justice League

I mean even in fucking Basic D&D once the fighter hit 8th level he was called a fucking Superhero

>>55223157
But bardic knowledge is just knowing legends and stories and the general news of the area. That particular skill has no magical qualities.
It's the same as tracking skills, swimming, or riding a horse.

That is, it's something your character, provided you built your character to do so, should just know since they live in the world. As the player, you don't live in the world, so it makes sense that your character will know things you do not.

>>55217738

Hey quick question can i suggest 2e? Half that stuff was built into fighters in 2e.

>>55217765
>Battleworn and experienced senior corporal leading a patrol in the jungle. Something is scratching at the back of his mind that something is wrong. Notices that the birds and insects have gone silent. Swiftly signals for the platoon the grab cover and hide. End up counter-ambushing the enemy group sneaking up on them.

Intuition is not magic. It's experience.

>>55218889
Look up Onmyodo

>>55218942
You know that "magic" is just the Greek word for Zoroastrianism, right?

>>55226558
Which was derived from the Iranian word for "competence".

You get what that means, right? That is, some Greek guy went to Iran and saw people in funny robes do something strange or impressive like charming snakes. When asked how he it was done, he was told (in Iranian) "He's just that good". He then went home and told stories of a mysterious power called "justhatgood", which allowed people to do impossible things.

It goes right to the root, friends.

>>55218556
y'know, i never looked into that because the name was dumb, but if the wrong way to use it is to turn yourself into a muscle wizard, then i need to get on that shit

>>55191381
I made magic weak to Iron (and Cold Iron) and my players started a fucking Inquisition dedicated to hunting down the mages.

I'm not even mad.

>>55218269

>Magical weapons

It's like you want to be wrong.

>>55218893

Thieves get thieves guilds, rangers get roving manageries, paladins get holy orders, clerics get cheap fortress building, and wizards get broken spells.

Rope trick also wasn't as dangerous because at high levels most parties would bring a bunch of npcs to form shield walls blockig hallways while they fight to prevent random encounters and such.

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>>55230615
I hate that "standing on weapons" thing, because everybody does it wrong. Her arm is fully outstretched, he should've dropped the point of his blade making her fall backwards, or twisted it so she'd drop. She can't attack from that position in a way he can't also avoid by moving his body

>>55230615
what is this from

>>55191087
D&D3e is.
But that's mostly because D&D slowly evolved to that point.

In older versions of D&D a complaint that came up from bad groups was that a bare-chested warrior could come running at a wizard down a hallway and unless the wizard had a spell specifically to block said hallway or teleport out (in both cases there being a good chance those spells took too long to cast), the wizard was dead.
While the rules-makers at the time said, well no shit the game isn't balanced around PvP, that philosophy changed over the years, to the point that we started seeing more and more rules saying fighting-men should be limited in what they can do unless they invest points/proficiencies/whatever the fuck else into it, while casters should be given access (or easier access) to more tools with less immediate drawbacks to allow them to better capitalize on having the right spells.
D&D3e took this to the logical conclusion where every single martial feat became a "feat" as opposed to just a thing that people could do and fighters are just better at, while casters had their magic streamlined to a point that they got the spells they wanted, they could cast them typically faster than non-dex based monsters could act, they didn't have to worry about a myriad of ways to make them lose spells or forget their prepared spells, they no longer lost all defensive bonuses while casting, and they no longer auto-lost their spellcasting for a turn because a dart hit them from across the room.

tl;dr: D&D 3e was a natural evolution of nerds from PvP groups finally being put in charge of the rules that they felt unfairly punished them.

>>55233245
The Animatrix

>>55218945
God I wish that was in the current system

That sounds so cool and would be a great chance for Fighters to build flavor for their own character instead of changing for whatever the GM gives them

>>55228275
And how does that help >>55218008?

Which is where the reply chain started.

>>55233136
You realize that in that animation, she, in the motion of his one swing, jumped, cut his mask, and then landed right?

There's no "Right or Wrong" way to do it, because its always a retarded thing to do. Its always dumb and inefficient. The reason she did so is to intimidate. The guys face says it all, he had no chance whatsoever of winning and she was proving a point.

You don't need to be 100% effective or smart when you are so far and above the other guy that you can land on his blade to prove a point. You passed the threshold for beating this guy 50% ago.

>>55191087
>Not being a gish Renaissance man

>>55233885
So he should stand there, and not act while supporting her weight? He can counter from there and TRY to win. The odds may be against him, but what's he got to lose?

>>55233924
The guy already lost when she cut his mask. They are sparring not fighting for life and death.

>>55233924
See >>55233942

Also, the easiest method to fix her situation is to put her other foot on the shaft of the weapon, where she can either kick him in the teeth or jump off herself. Maybe even jump off herself from the blade, if she's capable of it.

Like i said, when you get to the point where you can show off to prove a point, you won ages ago.

>>55233567
Personal houserule of mine is when a player gets a crit on a killing blow the weapon in question becomes magical and/or acquires properties related to the weapon. For example I had a dual wielding fighter crit a shadow and gave his weapon a strength drain ability, and to alleviate his need for two magic weapons I gave it the ability to twin itself, turning it's shadow into a second blade. Also gave some extra curse shit for story reasons so he could have a sidequest to complete.

Still not terribly certain what equivalent trigger to use for armors and accessories. Maybe successful death saves?

>>55235128
Accessories are things that happen for story reasons. something important either to story or background.

Armor, however, is simpler. How long has their armor been taking hits? From what kinda creatures? How well have they been made to maintain the armor? With what have they been doing so?

Basically, caring for your armor properly and fighting certain kinds of creatures often could be ways to get special armor for roleplay reasons.

>>55194573
He's a weeb, if he wasn't he'd know the west had ki type ideas too. I'm hard pressed to think of any idea that was restricted to a particular region outside of religions which spread anyway. Christ, you had gnostic/zoroastrians in China.

Human nature is the same, so it's no surprise that similar ideas pop up all over. But weebs fetishize the east and know dick about the west so they think "muh anniemays!" are totally original and deep.

>>55235210
It doesn't help that it's easier to consume eastern media that covers lots of different types of mythos. Fate has a bunch of "barely accurate" charactures of historical figures, Negima explores Ki and Western magic, there's a shitload of sci-fi battle harems with mechs.

I admit I don't consume much of any media, but I can't really think of any western/European work that uses the idea of "ki" in such a way that makes it distinct from eastern philosophies, or hell even focuses on druidic/hermetic ideas. Of course, that might have something to do with Young Adult as a target audience having more freedom to explore those kinds of ideas.

The Septimus Heap series does the chosen one thing as well as explores a more "traditional" kind of magic in a fantasy world. The Legend of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel pulls all kinds of characters from history in a post-victorian (I think) war between immortals with the "legendary twins" angle driving the plot.

>>55236060
>Young Adult as a target audience
I thought the people in those books just have Impossible Proficiency in their chosen area.

>>55191087
Sounds to me like you're playing a handful of ttrpgs and assuming they're all like that. You should branch out and try other games anon.

>>55191163
Which is funny, as those nu-fedoras will argue until they're blue in the face that magic can and should be treated as a hard science.