/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

Which do people prefer as far as the mechanics go: 1e CofD or 2e?

>>55186544
2e, for the games that actually have it out.

>>55186544
2e. 1e's got some nice bits and pieces - especially for Vampire - but holy shit is it ever a clusterfuck.

>>55186544
I feel that 2e has things go a bit smoother.

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>>55186491

Uh oh, 2e says Gate might not in fact be best girl after all.

So, if I want to play the sort of character who has the right pull in the justice department to get cops to look the other way at shady going ons and maybe get my group out of other types of trouble, would that be better done with allies or backing?

>>55188284
Sounds like allies or status

>>55188284
Mind.

>>55188284
It would be Status, most likely. If you get it because of your position in the department or law enforcement.

>>55188284
Where does the pull come from? What gives him access to it?

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>>55187575

>>55188284
>>55188374

Mage: We aren't the criminals you're looking for.

Police Officer: Those aren't the droids we're looking for.

Mage: We can go about our business.

PO: You can go about your business.

Mage: Move along.

PO: Move along... move along.

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>>55188573
What does it mean?

>>55188738
It means that She is best girl, all hail best girl. She needs to fling open the doors of Her Legacy to all, and she'll single handedly end the Pentacle.

That said, Legacyfag actually did a nice writeup for them. They're not stupidly powerful, but terribly nasty all the same.

So what's involved in learning the Coils? Could a Vampire with knowledge of at least one tier of the coils go about developing them on their own from then on, even though non-mystery coils would be incredibly difficult?

>>55186491
Changeling Supremacy

>>55189163
Can't wait for the Dark Eras to come out and have Changelingfags crying at all the Mage characters.

>>55189163
>Changeling Supremacy

Yeah, all that PTSD, schizophrenia, broken soul, total loss of normal life, replaced by magical clone, kidnapping and sexual abuse victim, being constantly hunted powers far more powerful than you, targetted by the terrible whims of Fate, and being vulnerable to iron, a cheap and ubiquitous substance, sure does sound "supreme."

>laughing mage<

>>55189486
Somebody really needs to make a laughing wizards reaction pic.

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>>55189514
Well, here's a stopgap. "That's nice and all. I have to go be awesome now."

>>55189544
>NOFATCHX
Gets me every time.

>>55189553
You just know there's a Wizard Trans Am racing league out in the edges of the solar system that really fucking confuses anyone with a telescope.

>>55189649

The Quiescence alters their memories with a mundane explanation.

>Those meteor showers are so awesome...

What Awakened path is your favorite?

So I am having trouble finding an answer to this, if a Revenant is embraced do they lose their original weakness?

>>55188284
Allies generally represents getting people to do things for you, Status represents actually being part of said organization, getting them to give you stuff
Also, this is a good place to remember the cores recommendation to rename merits as appropriate to what they are in the setting.

>>55190096
>Mastigos
>Moros
>Thyrsus
>Obrimos
>Acanthus

>>55190096
>What Awakened path is your favorite?

There are Obrimos, then there are everyone else.

>Acanthus are the biggest douches in the CofD

>>55190096
Don't make be choose

>>55186544
The only thing I miss from 1e were tables for things like feats of strength, endurance, etc.

>>55190190
>>55190096
Not in order.

Thyrsus best to live as, dominion over your own body at last. Spirit useful for everything if you don't mind working through spirits. Spirit world is a new and amazing experience to add to your life.

Acanthus most effective, their magic is powerful and general-purpose and they can undo time if things go wrong. Being somebody that life just goes well for is the ultimate magic.

Mastigos can't be tied down, get to Disciple level and you can go anywhere in the world with teleportation and Universal Language, although as of 2e you'll want to mail a sympathetic connection keepsake to someplace you're going for the first time.

Moros most stylish, Death is the most distinctive Arcanum and the least replicable by mundane methods. Matter is very pragmatic and has high potential for creative use.

Obrimos are my least favorite because they come off as magemages. They tried to soup up Prime in 2e, and I appreciate it, but the magic of magic is too essential and at the same time too dull. This is strictly a relative weakness, I still think all the Paths are good enough to feature in your game, but Obrimos characters should have something additional going on to distinguish them, like a Legacy.

>>55189706
>The Quiescence alters their memories with a mundane explanation that is still pretty cool.
FTFY

>>55190217
>Acanthus are the biggest douches in the CofD

>Douche Supremacy!

>>55190696
Somewhat ironically the thing that distinguishes Obrimos is that they are magemages. They get raw magic as a Ruling Arcanum and they're the iconic wizard parallel, commanding natural forces, all that imposing mystical might and such. And spirits are something of a double edged sword. Useful and interesting Obsession material, but they hate you and will never truly accept you.

>>55190855
Clearly the Douchiest Acanthus come from a Prime Ruling Legacy.

>>55190916
Fate and Prime working in unison sounds like a very scary thing.

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>>55190866
Let them hate, m'good man, so long as they fear.

>>55190950
I can't quite grasp the scale of this.

Any ideas for how we could spin these with Creative Thaum to make some Attainments?

>>55190696
HAHA Prime WRETCHS mages It's so good. Prime one Dispel magic. Prime IS the FUCK YOU Arcane. Ah Yeah fuck your magic. Counterspell all day every day. Massive DELETE your mage from the game.

Just get over the Fact you have to play Mommie may I to your Obrimos Overlords. Also UNLIMITED POWER MOTHERFCKER

>>55191153
>Prime one Dispel magic
Yeah but you also require at least one dot in the Arcanum being dispelled, unless you have Prime 2. You also need to be looking with Mage Sight as the spell is being cast, by the time it pings on peripheral, it's too late. You also can't keep Mage Sight up for more than a number of minutes equal to your Gnosis, although you can spend a Willpower point to keep it active for the rest of the scene.

I don't know why I'm responding seriously to a blatant shitpost.

>>55191221
>Yeah but you also require at least one dot in the Arcanum being dispelled, unless you have Prime 2. You also need to be looking with Mage Sight as the spell is being cast, by the time it pings on peripheral, it's too late. You also can't keep Mage Sight up for more than a number of minutes equal to your Gnosis, although you can spend a Willpower point to keep it active for the rest of the scene.
But how would Prime work with Fate?

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>>55191221
Cry cry more. Your magic is as limp as your dick

>>55191241
>But how would Prime work with Fate?
No clue. All I really remember about it is Fate being an additional modifier to a Prime spell back in 1e that casts a no magic zone over an area, letting you select who is affected and who isn't. Maybe make that one of the final attainments.

>>55191347
Yes, Prime is cool and all...but don't you think you should have some sort of backup plan?

Seriously, Prime is great against magic...not so great when someone is trying to turn your face into salsa with a Sawn-off.

Grab some dots in Matter which will give you kickass mage armour...and I think that you can use it with Prime to make Thaumium Armour.

Plus you have Forces for when you want to say fuck this direction in particular.

>>55191459
Making Thaumium requires at least Adept level in both Prime and Matter, iirc.

>>55190096
Fuck the Paths, I don't use them in my games.

>>55191489
But until then you still have at least three types of Mage Armour to pull from, all of which are quite kickass.

>>55191493
You have proven yourself to be a faggot

Or an archmage, as they have no path

>>55191153
I'm not saying Prime isn't useful, I'm saying it's so essential that every mage has reason to want it. With other Arcana, each may have a different way to accomplish the same goal, if you think creatively. But Prime is Prime, universally applicable, with no real substitute, and as a result, it's a good choice for non-Obrimos Legacies.

The trouble with this is that instead of the "you've got a Matter method, I've got a Forces method, he's got a Time method" relationship of other Arcana, with Prime everyone has Prime. It's the least common denominator of magic, and despite being the Arcanum of magic itself, it becomes the least esoteric and feels the least magical. Wraith Usury was MEANT to debase its purview, turning your body and emotions into exchangeable commodities with a numeric value. Prime does this to mages I think by accident.

>>55191826
Prime isn't a necessity anymore though. It was in Ascension.

awoo

>>55191932
No. We don't do that in here. Bad.

>>55191951
Stop. Stop it. Stop it. Right now.

>>55191916
I'd say it remains essential, especially with 2e dropping Quell the Spark.

>>55191932
>>55191951
oh jesus it's spreading

>>55191971
I just don't agree, sorry.

>>55191971
You can get imbued objects to counter and dispel though.

>>55191992
Why not? What would you say are the changes between Ascension and Awakening that have led to the fall of Prime?

>>55192011
There hasn't been a 'fall' of Prime nor have I said that. It just isn't a necessity. In Ascension you -needed- it to create things Ex Nihilo among other things, and it sucked.

>>55191996
That requires someone with Prime to make, sad lesser mage. PRIME KING

>>55192011
Prime can now make shit without the other owod spheres being required. PRIME BUFFED

>>55192268
Every Path has stuff it can trade. For example, an Obrimos could give a Thyrsus a Mana-siphoning Imbued Object in exchange for being bound to a Familiar.

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Apocalypse for yiffing superiority

>>55188615
What spell would that be closest to? I think it'd be some kind of variation on the Mind 2 command one, but that spell only is one word orders or simple mentally transmitted orders not so much jedi mind trickery.

>>55192475
That this is why we Hunt and remain on the Vigil. Pretty sure killing it wouldn't cause a breaking point for me.

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>>55189352
"That era we botted the initial poll on was ours by right!"

>>55192506
I'd just go with Life 2: Control Instincts, making the target unusually suggestible and agreeable.

>>55190696
>Matter is very pragmatic and has high potential for creative use.
Matter 4 and dots in Science means never lacking materials, know how, or ability to make man portable nukes.

>>55190096
I used to prefer Mastigos, and really I'd love Obrimos if their Arcana weren't so bullshit.

So personally my new favorite is Thyrsus.

>>55191459
>Seriously, Prime is great against magic...not so great when someone is trying to turn your face into salsa with a Sawn-off.
Space 4, Alter Direction. That shotgun's 'forward' is now 'away from the direction is it pointing'.

>>55191489
In Signs of Sorcery dev material that's been released, it's just Adept Matter now.

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I love these and wish there were some made for every splat.

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I was reading the Mage anthology recently and one of the stories had one mage noting that so many of his colleagues, for all their phenomenal cosmic power, never get over being that kid from gym who was beat up.

I feel like that was a direct dig at the mage players these are making fun of.

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I knew a girl once who was really into that doll hobby that this guy is too. Creepiest thing I've ever seen irl was her shopping online for new doll heads while we were between classes.

I would believe these things are Legacy yantras for an abyssal left hand legacy.

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>Prime
>Mage Green Lantern

>Plus gravity control and kinetic shield in Forces

>Welcome your new Obrimos Overlords

>>55192774
>never get over being that kid from gym who was beat up.

That applies to every WOD/CofD splat. Mage is hardly the worst for revenge fantasy (*cough* Vampire *cough* Beast *cough*).

What distinguished Mage, however, is that instead of mages representing the various and sundry minorities du jour or socially oppressed, you're basically playing the white, straight, Western, Judeo-Christian, rich, ultra-privileged man that tramples over the other splats and ruins the revenge fantasies of other players.

>>55190855
>>55190217
>Acanthus are the biggest douches in the CofD

You pc's clearly haven't met enough Mastigos.

>>55192974
Mastigos can do some nasty shit, but can they go back in time and defeat you before you even knew you were in conflict?

>>55192994
Sure, anyone can get Time as a non-ruling arcana!

>>55193047
With that argument, the differences between Paths are irrelevant.

>>55193133
Well the caps and exp differences matter, but if you really want to be good at something you can be. Even your Inferior Arcanum you just need dedication and a tutor with.

>>55193240
If you really want to invest in your inferior, join a Legacy which has that Arcanum as its Ruling.

Only problem being, you'll need to increase it from 0 to 2 in play, before you can join the Legacy.

>>55193273
Speaking of Legacy, can anyone give me some advice? I'm playing a Mastigos who is a member of an Arisen cult, of a Falcon Headed Mummy and thus Ba favored and he's part of the Free Council studying sekhem magic and Iremite amulets. I'm about to hit gnosis 3 and want to home make a Legacy derived from his research, but am struggling on the ruling arcanum for it let alone attainments.

This actually is working out kind of well since the Dark Eras Companion pointed out Mind is the associated subtle arcanum with Ba, so Mastigos seems a good pick here but I want to make it legacy ruling from something I don't have. In character I'm getting a ton of mileage from my Fate investment, but I feel like Prime might be the best thing here for 'I studied this weird magic'.

So, Prime or Fate seem more logical? Or am I fucktarded and Life or Matter are the best ones thematically here?

>>55193341
Okay, here's how Legacy creation works
Step 1: Create your theme. One to two sentences about what your Legacy is about.
Step 2: Choose the Ruling Arcanum that fits this concept.
Step 3: Figure out some Yantras and Oblations
Step 4: Figure out some Ruling Attainments
Step 5: Look to your Path's Ruling Arcana for some supplementary Arcana

So what you want to do before you even touch the Ruling Arcanum, is define exactly what your Legacy says about your approach to Magic. Because you're literally carving that approach into your Gnosis.

>>55193405
Also as an addendum, Prime is the Arcana which describes the Supernal itself.
It does NOT fuck around with Mummy bullshit, at least, not normally. I haven't read the Dark Eras.
So Prime's purview isn't "magic", but "Supernal Magic".

It's why Wards and Sigils doesn't function on anything but Supernal spellcasting.

>>55193405
"The ancients of Irem handled the raw stuff of creation directly, and we are emulating them"?

I want more blue book supplements

>>55193465
So you define your Gnosis by playing second fiddle to some Lower Depths shitheads?

>>55193461
In the DEC mage/mummy chapter they talk a bit about sekhem vs mana. Mana is the light that shines and illuminates creation, while sekhem is the stuff that you mold to make it.

I feel like there's a lot to dig in this relationship and hope it gets a few pages in the Crossover Chronicle if we ever get it.

>>55193477
I was figuring you use it to more effectively alter the Lie.

Also, if Duat is a Lower Depth it violates one of the prime rules of the places: You can't go and come back.

>>55193504
>You can't go and come back.

I also just realized that this sounds like I'm talking about the Rite of Return. I actually was talking Mutapa Empire, since it notes mages CAN try to reach Duat but Anpu directly intervenes to stop any Arisen you want to bring with you.

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>>55193461
Yeah so you magefaggots can't fucking counterspell my Utterances!

>>55193658
Exactly.
Depending on what they are though, Fraying or Unravelling might be able to destroy their effects.
However the Counterspell Attainment only functions on Awakened Magic (until other direction is given, as it might be in Crossover Chronicle, when it's released in about 30 years).

>>55193461
Ummm no. Prime, like all other Arcana, represents the 10 fundaments of reality. In this case Prime manifests as 'magic' and 'truth'.

It's the anti-anti-magic Arcana, and can indeed fuck with Utterances.

>>55193779
Yes, but it's easier to use the actual Arcanum describing the thing it's defending against.

You can use Prime to defend against, say, Changeling shenanigans, but it would be more pragmatic to use Fate.

Prime is more 'anything goes' while the others are more precise.

Mummyfags like to preach like they know what they're talking about.

It's a shame that there's only like 3-4 of them, including atamajakki.

>>55193461
>>55193658
>Wards and Sigils doesn't function on anything but Supernal spellcasting

However, Prime most certainly can defend against non-supernal magic. If there ever was any doubt, it's made clear with Prime Armor.

Prime Creative Thaumaturgy is the ultimate anti-"any and all magic" power in the CofD (and that's before the common Clash of Wills that many powers will trigger against various mages with other Arcana).

So when does a clash of wills happen when using shield magic?

Say a Mage has a Death shielding spell up and a ghost attacks with one of it's numina. Is the effect just negated for the duration of the spell or is there a small chance for the attack to go through w/ a clash of wills check?

>>55193944
clash, if ghost wins, power works, if not doesnt

>>55193944
Whenever two powers with incompatible aims both want to apply, a Clash arises, and the power which wins is applied. However neither power is ended, it just doens't have effect.

So an attack with a Ghostly Numina wants to affect an individual.
A Death Shielding spell wants to stop anything unwanted from affecting the individual.

Therefore the Ghost and the Mage roll a Clash of Wills.
If the Mage wins, the Numina has no effect.
If the Ghost wins, the Numina takes effect.

>>55193944
If the numina has duration then yes its negated for duration of spell.

>>55194012
So it would make sense to stack defensive effects? Like have a veiling spell up to make it harder for them to target you, a shielding spell to negate the effects, a spell that boosts your withstand, a mage armor, etc.

>>55194114
Yeah, each of those would be smart.
>Veiling so they need a CoW with a detection power to discern your presence
>Shilding Spell to force a CoW in order for their ability to affect you
>Mage Armour to reduce any harm caused by any spell which gets through your Shielding

However remember at that stage you're 2 spells into spell control (or perhaps one, if you combined cast at Gnosis 3), and you've spent Mana for Mage Armour.

>>55194114
Primes veiling will veil you from all supernatural beings so yeh.

Only supernal magic has withstand, its wise to increase it but if you arnt facing supernal magic it wont do much good.

>>55194237
>Primes Veiling
A spell that's direly in need of an amendment.

Read as written, it can veil Mages as "active magical phenomenon", from detection.
What from?
Literally everything.

>>55193779
>>55193853
Prime can not counter utterances what the fuck are you talking about?

>>55194350
>Prime can not counter utterances what the fuck are you talking about?

Feel free to cite anything from the Mage / Mummy crossover rules from Dark Eras Companion that states Utterances are a unique magical effect that cannot be defended against with Prime?

Prime is capable of potentially countering all "magic" and supernatural effects. That's one Prime's primary purviews.

What makes Prime so special, however, is its ability to counter supernal magic, something very difficult to do RAW in the CofD.

>>55194350
counter no but prime shielding & armor will clash vs them.
note under primes purview it says magic not supernal magic.

>>55194350
Utterances are magic. Prime is magic.

Figure it out.

It's like saying Forces can't counter fire.

>>55194429
>Prime is capable of potentially countering all "magic" and supernatural effects.

Careful, you're going to trigger a lot of splat snowflakes.

Heck, they still haven't recovered from Kinetic Shield.

>"what do you mean my splat isn't special when up against mages?"
>"REVOLT"

goddamnit you people are annoying

>>55194441
i think people are misusing counter. Counterspell is a thing in mage, it interferes with supernal spells and can stop them being cast.

Prime cant be used as a counterspell vs utterances but can counter them via shielding and armor

>>55194462
I figured.

So what happens if you embrace a Vozhd that is not lobotomized?

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>>55194441
>>55194455
Fuck off mageshitters

>>55194429
>Prime is capable of potentially countering all "magic" and supernatural effects. That's one Prime's primary purviews.

>>55194429
I don't play Mage, are you saying a Prime mage can just snuff out a Promethians Azoth and turn them back into a stitched-up corpse? 'cause that sounds like horseshit.

>>55194611
pancakes

>>55194635
Congratulations, your autism has just proven that the magefags were correct. Idiot.

>>55194639
Explain?

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>>55194659

>>55194653
How fuccboi? Magesshitters claimed utterances can be counterspelled. They can only be clashed and we all know a measly 5 gnosis mage won't best a clash against a 10 sekhem big dicked mummy.

>>55194638
At Prime 5, yes. That's what the practice of Unmaking does. As is said in just about every thread, Masters are scary, yo.

>>55194691
See >>55194462 you insufferable faggot.

>>55194691
Counter point.
Does anyone even play mummy?

>>55194691
Who the fuck cares when Exceptional Successes destroy Sekhem 10 Mummies.

:^)

>>55194722
Nope prime can only clash sorry there magefaggot.

>>55194740
That's not how exceptional successes work dumbass.

>>55194771
>he thinks i'm still talking about CoW
>doesn't realize mummies are as doomed as any other against ES Unamking

>>55194635
>>55194462

"Counter" in Mage means "force a Clash of Wills against a spell you see being cast, because you know the Arcanum it's using." Countering has special rules for figuring out your Clash dice pool, and variable costs depending on relative Arcana dots.

Mages can't counter Mummy Utterances by attacking them Arcanum-to-Pillar. That's what the quoted passage says.

Mages *can* get a Clash of Wills against an Utterance the way everyone else gets a Clash of Wills - by having a mutually-exclusive effect that they're creating, so you use the Clash mechanics to figure out which one takes precedence. If a Mummy uses Cthonic Dominion to command a ghost a Moros has already controlled using a Death spell, the spell and the Utterance Clash. But the Moros can't just sense the Mummy doing something and go "counterspell!"

This is good, right, and what Clash was designed to sort out in the first place - the "I use Majesty on the person the mage has mind-controlled" cases.

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>>55194750

>>55194750
Thats what i fucking said you asshole.

Counter != Counterspell.

You can clash and call it being countered you autist.

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>>55194806
Thank you Dave
>>55194809
>>55194810
You magefags are so easily triggered it's unbelievable

>>55194771
With a unmaking spell and a ES thats exactly how it works dumb ass. ES ignores withstand so you are just unmade, gone, no defense.

>>55194809
>Going against Dave
kys

>>55194854
Did Dave not just mention an Utterance Clashing with the Death Arcanum? Unless you somehow think Death and Prime are the same thing.

>>55194883
Because its control ghost vs control ghost?

Another assbandit who doesnt understand clashes.

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>>55194883
>Going against Dave
Look at him and laugh

One hopes that Dave is up at nearly 3am because he is finishing signs and sorcery.

>>55194806
Mummies, on the other hand, *do* have a "Clash any spell" power - the Utterance Rebuke the Vizir, which as written in Mummy 1e outright prevents a spell, but in the 2e rules in Princes forces a Clash of Wills instead.

Dead general
Dead franchise

What's the difference with Prime countering and any other Arcana countering?

If Prime's purview is 'magic', would it not be able to counter the purviews of other magic sources?
Could Prime counter a Changeling as much as Fate could?

New to this.

>>55194853
>>55194791

People seem to be really, really upset and/or really, really salivating over a pretty situational thing.

>But increasing the dice pool makes it statsicially more likely that...

It's still situational. Unless you hedge your bets, you can't depend on an Exceptional Success with spellcasting. I can't really say I get the hype.

>>55194945

Can Prime Shielding force a Clash of Wills against an Utterance (or Discipline, Gift, etc.)?

Other than direct damage "magical" effects versus Prime Mage Armor, It's really unclear how Prime is used against other non-supernal supernatural effects.

Also, could you provide some clarification for Prime 2 Supernal Veil? Can it actually totally shield a mage from all detection?

>>55195258
U dun goofed. You have scared him off.

>>55195239
>what is a praxis
>what % 10+ dice to get 3 or 5 successes. Min is gnosis 5/arcana 5, then you have + yantra + willpower so dicepool might be easily 15+

Bu the time a mage is a master in an arcana, ES are easy to get.

>>55195194
Countering is when you try to fuck up someone else's Imago when they're casting so it collapses.

Most Arcana can only do that to their own Arcana, but Prime at 2 dots can do it to any spell, because Prime is the Arcanum of Supernal Magic turned upon itself.

You CANNOT Counterspell effects which are not Supernal Spellcasting.

You CAN attempt to shield against them with Shielding, or damage/destroy them with Fraying/Unravelling/Unmaking.

>>55195239
>Unless you hedge your bets, you can't depend on an Exceptional Success with spellcasting

The situation that's usually discussed is Exceptional Successes and Unmaking/Making spells. Such spells are instant kill spells that must overcome Withstand. On an exceptional success, Withstand can be ignored, thus an it allows the destruction of most anything.

An Exceptional Success is really not that hard to achieve for a mage capable of casting Making/Unmaking spells. The spells require Arcanum 5. In order to have an Arcanum at 5, the mage must have a minimum Gnosis of 5. Accordingly, without any Yantras, Rotes, or other bonuses, the mage casting the spell has a dice pool that begins at 10. If the spell is a Praxis (3 successes for ES), a Rote (Mundra bonus) or if the mage employs one or More Yantras, an Exceptional Success seems not only possible, but expected.

To paraphrase another eloquent Anon, "Masters be terrifying, yo!"

>>55195324

So Prime Shielding can not only effectively emulate the Shielding Practices of Arcana like Death, Mind, Spirit, etc., but force a Clash of Will against *any* supernatural effect?

If so, that's not too shabby at all.

>>55195274
>U dun goofed. You have scared him off.

I think Dave just fell asleep.

It's after 3:00am in the UK.

Even the Komodo Lord needs his beauty sleep.

>>55195404
That depends on whether your GM sees the purview of "Magic" and decides that means "everything Supernatural" instead of "everything Supernal".

I interpret it with the latter category.

Otherwise Prime Shielding works on literally everything.
It's also why they wrote Prime Shielding as something that boosts Withstand, rather than enforcing a CoW.
Because the alternative is broken as fuck.

>>55195304
>>55195372

I still don't get the hype, cause all that is just endgame level play stuff that most campaigns probably won't get to. But fair enough, it's not as situational with the right precautions.

>>55195457
18 exps is well within reach of most campaigns?

>>55195436
The fact that Prime Shielding even provides a boost to Withstand suggests that its purview is magic in general, and not just Supernal.

I have also ran with Prime being the Arcanum to use against anti-magic, unless the source of the anti-magic itself is specific to one of the other nine Arcana.

>>55195436

Wards and Signs boosts Withstand. That doesn't mean that's all Prime Shielding is capable of doing.

>Otherwise Prime Shielding works on literally everything.
>Because the alternative is broken as fuck.

Your interpretation is equally as broken in that it renders Prime as near useless except in the most niche situations.

Your interpretation also runs counter to Mage's design philosophy - no artificial limitations on the Arcana and crossover is not considered when establishing the limits of effects.

If your belief that Prime only deals with Supernal magic was correct, how does Prime Mage Armor protect against ALL supernatural direct damage attacks, supernal or otherwise.

I can understand why some might want to seriously nerf Prime Shielding as a houserule in a crossover campaign for "balance" (just like other Shielding effects such as "Kinetic Shield"), but Prime appears to apply to ALL "magic" as currently written in Mage 2e.

>>55195531
>The fact that Prime Shielding even provides a boost to Withstand suggests that its purview is magic in general, and not just Supernal.
Not really.
Only Mages use Withstand.

>>55195531
only supernal magic deals with withstand so boosting it suggests no such thing.

>>55192506
Depending on how onto you the cops are, it could just be a Mind 1 Compelling spell.

>>55195515
Yeah. As the end game.

Even in a game that is spitting out xp like crazy, that is still pretty end game.

>>55195433
>Even the Komodo Lord needs his beauty sleep.

Blasphemy! Sacrilege! Heresy!

I thought the Arcana could counter other splat abilities? Spirit for Gifts, Death for Disciplines, Fate for Contracts, etc. Now they can't?

This is new to me.

>>55195604
You can shield against them, or disrupt them, or rewrite them, or unmake them.
But you can't use the Counterspell attainment to disrupt them as they're being cast.

>>55195604
No. You can. People are getting confusing with 'countering', and Counterspelling.

>>55195604
You can affect them with the relevant Arcana, but the counterspell attainment wouldn't work because it disrupts spell Imagos as they're being formed. Hence why the window for counterspelling has already passed by the time the Imago is complete and being released, making the spell ping on Peripheral Mage Sight.

>>55195515

If you're using Beats as close to RAW as possible, it's still going to take some time. Going from 1 to 5 on a Ruling Arcana, not even bothering to increase any other stat or aspect of the sheet, takes from 10 to 26 sessions. Considering that Gnosis needs to go up to make the investment worthwhile, it'll take even longer. It's all endgame, or very late midgame, so it's whatever.

Which Arcanum represents Utterances?

>>55195707
What in my sessions we get 5 exp each session on average.

>>55195728
None.

>>55195740
You get 25 beats per session on average?

>>55195728
Death, probably, if mummies are undead. But who fucking knows, or cares.

>>55195740
That sounds like way to much.

>>55195740

5 BEATS, or 5 EXPERIENCES?

There is a huge difference here. Five Beats is one Experience, Five Experiences is a whole Attribute dot. One is how the games are paced RAW, the other is a blisteringly fast pace that honestly sounds pretty fun for a short campaign.

>>55195740
You can get to a master in 4 sessions from a starting mage?

Thats to much.

>>55195604
How the fuck would Death work on Disciplines?

>>55195728
I'd like to know this as well.

>>55195997
>How the fuck would Death work on Disciplines?
Death can affect the powers of any Death based entity. Vampires, strix, Sin-Eaters, etc. If mummies are undead then they fall under Death too.

The discussions that unfold here give me massive headaches. It seems as though you autists never even know what you're talking about.

You could be arguing about apples while the opposing party thought you were talking about bananas the whole time.

How does this go on? Are you high or something?

>>55195799
5 experiences
>>55195805
In order to get more powerful my cabal learned that we can hit each other with spells than resolve the tilts for power.

>>55196075
Why are you lying?

>>55196040
Because 4chan is the biggest fucking excuse to act retarded and to actually get away with it.

Everybody else acts like a Mormon over at the OPP forums.
You can't say even type "retarded" without getting a mod on your ass.

>>55196131
>You can't say even type "retarded" without getting a mod on your ass.
Really? That's gay.

>>55196075
So your ST allows you to be gaylords and resolve conditions on you for loads of exps.

problem is your ST allowing it and you for doing it. Noted.

>>55196146
ikr that was me.

I wanted to say "What other meaning does retarded have if not stupid."

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For further reference

>>55196111
What are you talking about?
>>55196156
It was in the rule book and is a legitimate practice for the Wise

>>55196192
How do people survive over there

>>55196192
SJW's are insane and ruin everything. News at 11.

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>>55196192
That's fucking hilarious.

>>55196204
I hope you werent giving yourself conditions and getting beats for them just ending duration you have to actually resolve them properly.

Any moderate ST wont allow that shit to go on, casting instant spells to give conditions to resolve for beats ad nausum is aids and you should feel bad for abusing it.

>>55196241
>stop having fun in a way I don't like
Also of course we properly resolve the conditions dumbass.

>>55196204
>What are you talking about?
>resolving tilts for beats
>tilts
>doing this at least roughly 50 times per session on average
What tilts were they? How did you resolve them? Where in the book does it say to do this? Page number.

>>55196216
By moderating your language.
I tolerated it for a while, but the ultimate truth is there's little intelligent discussion there.
Similar story here. But at least I can call people cunts.

>>55196192
I've been laughing for a good minute at this. I didn't realize how bad the official forums were.

Jesus.

>>55196283
>you must accept this thing i do
Entitled much, buddy?

>>55196309
I thought "retarded" was moderating it desu :P

But then im Scottish and we swear alot so im fucked.

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>>55196297

>>55196432
Tilts aren't Conditions.
Also that'd mean you'd need a LOT of Scenes to rack up that many Beats using that method in a session.

>>55196432
"a character may only earn one Beat per scene from resolving conditions"

Unless you're having 20~25 scenes in one session. You're a fag

>>55196461
ST is the fag for allowing it. Players will always try to get away with shit.

>>55196432
You have roughly 25 scenes per session? And by the way, what spells do you use to cause what Conditions? How do you resolve them?

>>55196470
You've also got to remember that unless you create them with an Exceptional Successes, Magically granted Conditions have to be negative to garner a Beat when resolved.

After reviewing Rebuke the Vizier I need to ask.

Do any other splats have access to anti magic?
Mages don't have any so this could be good for killing them.

>>55196470
>Deliberately misrepresenting the rule book
That's still faggy justification. Doesn't even have the excuse of 3.5 of shitty rule explanation

>>55196432
And that doesn't mean you get to spend the majority of your long ass sessions cheesing beats. Who would even run a game like that for you?

>>55196509
Demons can do something similar.

>>55196509
>mages don't have anti-magic
You what?

> Enter thread
> Ctrl-f Hunter
> 0 results

And just from that I could tell this thread was gonna be shit. Let's fix that.

>>55196531
Prime only works with Supernal magic and the other Arcana don't have magic as a purview.

>>55196536
Okay.

Who's actually had Hunters be a genuine threat in one of their games?
Because they were utterly pathetic in every game I've ever played.

>>55196509
Every Arcanum has the potential to be the anti-magic Arcanum. It just depends on the source.

>>55196559
The problem i had with using hunters vs mages was once they died the mages tried to pick up the buzzer guns or whatever the fuck they were called again (the ones that brown noted you or something) and tried to use them against other mages. Being james bond chipped to only work for certain peeps was trivial to get around with magic so i just basically armed mages with anti mage guns.

>>55196509
Mages arguably have the best anti-magic available. They can, quite literally, Clash *anything* given the scenario.

>>55196547
Disciplines and other powers of death based entities can be defended against with Death. Spirit shields against Gifts. Fate screws with contracts. Prime Mage Armor also defends against any wholly supernatural effect that deals direct damage.

>>55196621
Mind protects vs any mental manipulation from any source, be it dominate, majesty, scary numina, fear powers,

>>55196470
Honestly the ST sounds like a bitch.

>Hey guys I got all this cool stuff for your characters to check out!
>Nah we're going to do this for a while, maybe we'll do some of that later
>o-okay

>>55196621
Prime as a purview is only Supernal and not supernatural as a whole

>>55196663
Read its purview "magic" not "supernal magic" so using blood magic is still in its purview.

>>55196682
As others noted this isn't true. So no.

Otherwise it would Clash everything and be broken af

>>55196663
>>55196700

Also go read prime mage armor. You fucking dimebar.

Vampire shoots lightning at you with blood magic, prime mage armor protects you. Deal with it.

>>55196663
"Prime Armor does not protect the mage from mundane
attacks. Instead, it protects the mage from incoming magical
attacks, including the damaging spells of other Awakened, but
also any supernatural effect that deals direct damage."
p.194

>any supernatural effect that deals direct damage
Which is what I said.

>>55196559
Depends on what you're playing, but because Hunters are weaker by design (being mortals) you can't run them like normal encounters. In a way, you gotta be a total cunt when playing them. Make sure they have plans upon plans, have them use a ton of traps, if they can reasonably know the weakness of your player's splat, have them exploit the shit out of it.

If you do it right, your players should HATE them for all the underhanded tricks and and annoying strategies they pull.

>>55196700
>Otherwise it would Clash everything and be broken af
>implying mage cares about something in it being broken
>especially in regards to other splats

>mage gets prime 2
>can literally Clash any other spell in the game
>even anti-magic
>why even bother to use any other Arcanum against magic slinging foes

Yeah no. He's right. Prime as a purview is based around Mana and Supernal magic, not magic in its entirety.

>>55196787
Prime Shielding doesn't start a Clash it only boosts Withstand.

>>55196706
Death would be used against blood sorcery, not Prime. It wouldn't work.

>>55196813
Did you read prime armor??

No, if the blood sorcery is doing direct damage to the mage, then prime would work.

Deal with it.

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>>55196612
>Mages arguably have the best anti-magic available. They can, quite literally, Clash *anything* given the scenario.

>For Emphasis

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>>55196787
Can you read?

There is no mention of supernal magic just magic

>>55196864
I'm talking about the Practices, you cock sucker.

Prime Shielding wouldn't invoke a Clash over any instance of magic, sorcery, whatever. It only deals in Supernal magic.

>>55196907
not what its purview says.

>>55196713
>>any supernatural effect that deals direct damage

How can Prime Mage Armor protect against direct non-supernal magic, but Prime Shielding be limited to only Supernal effects?

Either Prime can oppose ALL magic/supernatural effects or only Supernal phenomena.

Where the hell is the Mage FAQ!!!

>>55196918
I don't get it then. Prime Shielding can't Clash other Mage's spells, only boosting Withstand.

But it CAN Clash non-Mage magic? How does that make any fucking sense? It doesn't. Fuck off.

>>55196939
The written prime shielding spell boosts withstand.

You can creative thaum a prime spell that works vs magic that would clash.

Go drown yourself.

>>55196952
Too bad you can't Clash a Mummy's Utterances.

:^)

>>55196813
>Prime Shielding doesn't start a Clash it only boosts Withstand.

Wards and Signs is not the only application of Prime Shielding.

Why do some Anons seem to forget that Creative Thaumaturgy is not only a thing, but the essence of the Mage magic system.

A spell that boosts Withstand was simply a great example spell since in the Mage setting the primary antagonists are other mages, and mage has the only system where a character defends with Withstand instead of some version of contesting the effect.

>>55196962
Yes you fucking can you insufferable mong.

>>55196718

Humans vs supernaturals favors mundane people in the long run according to the fluff but I think the issue with all out war with hunters is that most players don't want to play a game where their characters are dying constantly.

>>55196962
depending on what they do, yes you can

2/10 for trolling.

>>55196981
No you fucking can't use yourgay ass Prime anti magic against an Utterance

see >>55194635 and read Dave's comment

You can't dish out anti-magic against a Mummy, but that Mummy can throw anti-magic at you.

Eat it. :^)

>>55197011
No. You can't. You can only deal with the EFFECTS, not the Utterance. You can't use anti-magic against them.

Rebuke the Vizier on the other hand works on ALL magic.

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>>55196962
>Too bad you can't Clash a Mummy's Utterances

Read Dave's post that states the exact opposite.
>>55194806

Also, at best, Dave believes a mummy might last longer than some other splats against a mage, but just like everyone else, will ultimately fall the glory of Mage Supremacy.

Also, have fun being the undead amnesiatic bitch of evil gods for all eternity while mages are free, human and still freakin' powerful.

>>55197028
>You can only deal with the EFFECTS, not the Utterance.

WTF?

Congratulations, you unleashed the Utterance against the mage, and then the magic fizzled against his Prime Shield.

No one really care about "counterspelling" Utterances or anything else, we're discussing the capabilities of the Shielding Practice.

>>55197032
Read >>55194945 you idiot.

>>55197006
There's also that too. Most people won't be having much fun if the Hunters act like Hunters. Ex: You're roused from daysleep only to find someone blew your ghouls brains out, your haven is on fire, and it's mid-day and sunny. Or you're just wolfing about only to get nailed by multiple marksmen packing silver bullets, and even with your death rage, you won't reach them before they can squeeze off another shot.

It's fun to be the underdogs pulling shit like that. Not so much fun to be the ones receiving it.

>>55197028
Dave specifically said if mongo utterance tries to control my death controlled zombie then its a clash.

Clashing vs a utterance you fucking mongo. You can clash utterances, if i win your utterance does fuck all, i would call that anti magic\utterance.

>>55197058
Prime doesn't work on anything but Supernal magic

Mummy uses Rebuke the Vizier, you have nothing to Clash it with.

Mummy wins.

>>55196897
It actually even differentiates magic from the Supernal. Which I suppose makes sense. If Prime is the Supernal reflection of magic, wouldn't it encompass "Fallen" magic as well? Like how all the other Arcana encompass Fallen phenomena.

>>55197067

See
>>55197058

Shielding doesn't stop an effect from occurring in the first instance like counterspelling, it just neutralizes or mitigates it.

>>55197088
THAT'S THE FUCKING EFFECT, NOT THE UTTERANCE

Mages can't use anti-magic on Mummies, but Mummies can use anti-magic on Mages. That's my point.

>>55197090
Explain prime armor then faggot, how does that protect vs all magic?

>>55196939
>Prime Shielding can't Clash other Mage's spells, only boosting Withstand
Where is this stated? The spell examples are just spell examples. Unless stated otherwise, you and your ST could hash out a spell to Clash against magic instead.

>>55197101
Nobody has said you can counterspell utterances you nobber.

>>55197090
>Prime doesn't work on anything but Supernal magic
Source?

>>55197120
Exactly, Mummies can enforce a Clash on all magic being used by Mages via Rebuke the Vizier, while Mages can't do that to Mummies. Prime doesn't work that way.

>>55197087
Even on the hunter side of the equation. If they were fighting full splats there would be a lot of player deaths.

>it's another "Some people just don't get Mage" episode
I'll leave it to you to decide which people I'm talking about.

>>55197101
What are you refering to when you say anti-magic?

Lets be clear. Mages can counterspell other spells, and they can counter ANYTHING under an arcanas purview via clashes.

Both are antimagic effects.

>>55197125

The Anon is a troll, doesn't really understand the difference between counterspelling and Shielding, and/or is just so autistic that he thinks mummies are "special."

If he's actually read Mage 2e, I also imagine he believes that the sample spells are the limits, rather than examples, of mages' magical capabilities.

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Our reptilian lord and master really needs to clarify the purview of Prime, and whether it's limited to just supernal magic or all magic. This is not a minor issue or matter of nuance, and I don't believe it's a subject for Signs of Sorcery,

>>55197187
He's sleeping in jolly ol' Britain right about now.

>>55197187
Why would Dave want to post in this dumpster fire?

>>55197217
Who knows.
But he does.

>>55197217
>>55197223

Dave's been in a posting mood recently. He's commented here, the OPP forums and the Mage Discord.

Sadly, he's now probably fulfilled his personal posting quota until the 2018.

>>55197145
See that I'm not so sure about. I've played in plenty of Hunter games where we fought some full splats at the least. It was difficult, but not a total slaughter. Hunters as a rule are gonna need to fight unfair as hell. When mitigating the power gap is your biggest objective, as long as you don't get into the cosmic realm of power, you can mitigate a shocking amount of it with ambushes, traps, and tricks.

Heck, the Hunter books on specific splats say you can use the main splat books as much as you want if you got em, Dread Powers monsters, in my opinion, exist to keep the enemy generation in Hunter largely consistent in terms of rules, not to provide nerfed enemies to fight. You can make some scary enemies with dread powers.

>thread goes to absolute hell
>hunter fags ignoring it all having a civil discussion

So surreal

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>>55197262

From the Psalms of Dave...

>>55197187
Purview: magic

Simple. (fact prime armor is vs all magic) is the big arrow saying ALL magic

I repeat. Nobody cares about Hunter.

Nobody.

>>55197295
>hunter fags having a civil discussion

That's not how we roll here.

>Stupid muggles

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>>55197301
>From the Psalms of Dave...

Sadly, not everything uttered by Dave is a pearl of Wisdom

>Dave on Komodos

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>>55189514

>>55197301
Wait, what's the mummy thing that doesn't work with Mummy?

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>>55189514

>>55197301
> Mages in any crossplat
I'm talking about using rifles, traps and hit-and-run to take out werewolves. Or bombing vampire havens. You know, fun stuff. Mage breaks other splats so easily it's silly to think of including them. Not to mention they make supernatural logistics a clusterfuck.

I've never actually met in person an ST who includes Mage in their setting.

>>55197295
Hunters see horrors of the world on a daily basis. We can handle shitposting.

>>55197315
>>55197312
All that power and it can't conjur you up a decent personality.

>>55197625
>All that power and it can't conjur you up a decent personality.
Mind.

>>55197625
>I'm talking about using rifles, traps and hit-and-run to take out werewolves. Or bombing vampire havens

While certainly a little gauche, as fellow humans, I imagine many mages would be amused by such efforts; the prey taking on the self-professed apex predators.

>Golf Clap

>>55197625
>silly to think of adding them

people seem to whine all the time about it yet i have never seen any greentext about "when a mage ruined my crossover"

Man its kinda depressing when every new post for like....what the past two hours has just been auto hidden in one giant block of hidden posts. Can't you guys move on to something else?

>>55197845
I had a genuine laugh Anon, thank you

>>55197823
>man this thread sucks
>better whine about it instead of contributing or trying to start a new topic, or just leaving
>ahem
>wahhhhh
Jesus Christ are you an adult or aren't you?

>>55190866
Ran an Obrimos who started with 3 dots in Spirit in a four-shot crossover game with Werewolves once.

Was interesting. Never actually upgraded Spirit beyond that because Reaching is plenty of mayhem, holy christ is it not a good thing to be on the bad side of someone who can open a gate that spews gigantic angry wolves. That was basically how the game went - no locus? No problem! Wolves! Wolves everywhere! What do you mean, non-violent solutions?

>>55196509
The Carthians have something in SotC.

>>55196509
The Septemi bloodline haven't been updated to 2e, but have a discipline based around it. First dot power adds discipline dots to your supernatural resistance, then you get everything from illusion breaking, to mind-warp removal, to an all-purpose 'smash a magical effect' power.

Can Prime Clash anti-magic like some sort of anti-anti-magic?

>>55197187
If you eyeball the book, it says that prime dispellation and the like is only for supernal magic. You *could* take a run against all magic with it, but you'd need to sit down and bash out a greater utility attainment, apparently.

>>55197936
Weird that Prime Mage Armor accounts for all supernatural whatnot and not exclusively Supernal.

>>55197936

Yet the Prime 2 Mage Armor protects against attacks from all magical sources, not just supernal.

The issue is just how broad are Prime Shielding spells.

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If it didn't, Prime Mage Armour would be almost worthless.

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>>55197973
Not all, just directly damaging. Just make that 4 dot attainment the book mentions create some sort of magic static for clashes of wills. Et voila.

So if I'm reading this right, to cast a spell as instant and as sensory, you would always be Reaching beyond your free Reach for spells at your level. Meaning you would roll Paradox. That seems annoying.

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>>55197987
This is beautiful

>>55197931
>Can Prime Clash anti-magic like some sort of anti-anti-magic?

And that, Anon, is now one of the greatest Mage 2e rules Mysteries.

Unless and until Dave chooses (or has the time) to release the Mage FAQ, it shall remain unfathomable,

>>55197991
It is, but you can also cast at range using the aimed spell rules instead of reach.

>>55197991

You can choose to "throw" the spell instead of using Sensory. Rotes are useful for Reach on anything less than master-level spells.

If you cast with a magical tool, you'll likely also all or mostly negate any Paradox for only 1 extra Reach.

No pain, no gain.

>>55198020
Yeah, but what about spells that are sensory in nature, like Unveiling spells?

>>55198036
>Yeah, but what about spells that are sensory in nature, like Unveiling spells?

Another excellent question that should also be addressed by the Mage FAQ.

>>55198045
Another, unrelated question. Would you need a sympathetic yantra for a location? Like if you wanted to scry, co-locate or teleport, would you need a chip of wood from your sanctum's wall or wherever?

>>55198002
I don't see why not.

>Kindred blood sorcerer utilizes anti-magic
>Awakened wizard deploys Death to Clash it

It's essentially anti-magic against anti-magic
In a sense, anti-anti-magic.

>>55198036
Well, until the FAQ is out, if it's on someone else or a spell targetting a specific target, touch it or use the aimed spell rules. If it's on you, then leave as is. You know, just don't be a fuckstick in your group and work around what you can.

I'm not sure if I'm going to even bother having my Mage take Prime as an Arcanum if I can't figure out whether or not its purview runs in line with Supernal magic or magic in-general.

Damn, Awakening is as confusing as it is tense.

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The FAQ will never come out.

Abandon all hope.

>>55197693
>I imagine many mages would be amused by such efforts; the prey taking on the self-professed apex predators.

Heck, vampire Hunters might receive help from a "friendly" Obrimos every now and again and never even know it.

>Hunter #1: I don't know how all three ghouls had automatic weapons, and not a single shot managed to anyone in the cell.

>Hunter #2: We are truly blessed by God!

> quiet laughter in the background <

>>55198061
That chip of wood could be used as the sympathetic yantra yep, you still need a sympathetic link to it also, which you can borrow from the wood chip if you dont have your own.

>>55198080
If you are only up against mages then take prime ffs. take it anyway because you will need it at some point.

>>55198109

I would permit any mage to have a strong sympathetic to any sanctum he's invested dots in.

>>55198119
>>55198080

Take Prime if you also want to buff your own magic and be Wizard Green Lantern or Dr. Strange.

>>55192821

Don't all the Arcana deal with magic in general as a rule of how they function and interact with the Fallen?

Not all magic corresponds to the same 'source'.
>Changeling magic = Fate
>Vampire magic = Death
>Werewolf magic = Spirit
>etc...

Whether or not Prime deals with all of that -and-Supernal shenanigans is, quite plainly, irrelevant to me.

I imagine Death would still be the better alternative than Prime against blood sorcery, regardless of the truth.

>>55198080
>>55198148

Prime *should* also be expanded in Signs of Sorcery, as the book deals with supernal stuff.

>>55198167
vaporware

>>55198475

>>55198036

The subject of an unveiling spell is whoever you want to get the information. Most of the time, it'll be yourself, so no range necessary.

You *could*,spend Reach to cast it at sensory range and give bob the bystander across the street infrared vision or whatever. But most of the time you'll cast it either on yourself or a cabalmate you can lean over and tap on the shoulder.

>>55198653
On time travel. Sure, you can accidentally prevent your own birth, but can you be knocked back before the 'present'? Could a paradoxical temporal iris exist and turf someone back into the 60s and left there, with their own timeline forever removed? Or would they just return to the point they entered the Iris after a while?

>>55194269
Isn't it only meant to protect against supernatural senses? I didn't think it applied to mundane Wits + Composure perception tests, camera footage, etc.

>>55198823

Spells from Arcana like Matter can veil whole building from detection, so why not Prime veiling mages.

"Veiling spells are twofold: Firstly, they can conceal things
under the Arcanum’s purview from detection: A target
can be made to lose all sense of time (Time), a fire’s heat
and light can be hidden from view (Forces), or a building
made all but impossible to notice (Matter)."

>>55198653

Dave, since you're awake, might you elucidate whether Prime Shielding applies to all magical effects or just supernal magic? Thanks,

>>55198653

Dave, are you one of the writers for the Contagion Chronicle?

>>55195707
Why 1 to 5? Why wouldn't you start with up to 3 dots in a Ruling Arcanum?

>>55199019
cos dumb

>>55197572
I think he's talking about the Habibtu Ma, which seems to be a mummy cult on the sly. Members enjoy blessings when praying to the deity of their choice. But mummies and their cults, in their own books, are supposed to revere only the mummy's Judge.

>>55199019

Because it's more for example than anything else. Either way, that's 5 sessions at the fastest going by RAW, but that's not going to happen that quickly because you need to get your Gnosis up. A player isn't going to shortcut their way to endgame is the point.