Can someone tell me what the pros and cons of MTG are? What

> pros
the sheer depth of interactions due to thousands of cards,
the learning curve

> cons
the fanbase. every "good" or skilled / serious player is at least two of the following:
> toxic
> autistic
> PayToWin
> morbidly unhygienic
> a literal child

Obviously your play groups vary and you can have fun with a normal group of players but if you want to play fast and loose at an LGS at least half of the players will be some form of scumbag

Even if you had access to all cards for free, you would still have to deal with these people

>>55157024
Make card packs $2 instead of $4.50

Less pay2win, more accessibility, more players, detoxify the fanbase, and get people to bite the bullet on cards they maybe don't really want instead of proxying.

>>55157024
>Pros
Large, poorly tested card pool makes for lots of crazy bullshit that wouldn't fly in most other card games.

>Cons
Lands, most of the active playerbase, the feeling of grandfather clause elitism lots of people have with it, despite the potential for complexity and depth, most people just want to play Creatures: the Tappening, while people are quick to praise the variety of playstyles and complexity of interactions, I haven't met a player that actually enjoys using/facing anything more complex than bumrush aggro or turbofog, valuable cards are rarely if ever reprinted to protect speculators and becaue WotC is afraid some of these specilators will sue them for violating the Reserve List, the players are generally quick to label you with some combination of WotC's marketing psychographics and view everything you do through that narrow lens, certain strategies and mechanics are gimped and kept inherently weaker to push others, and I could keep going.

>>55158919
I'd say just reprint cards in guaranteed pulls like planeswalkers deck or just don't make modern masters so fucking expensive.
Sure don't print stuff off the reserve list or whatever but cards like liliana of the veil have no excuse to be over $20 when there are 3 prints of it, one of which was in a "reprint" set.
This is also why nobody new wants to get into modern because the fucking lands of all things are too expensive.

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>>55157024

Pros
>Seemingly infinite amount of interesting interactions due to the sheer size of the game
>The coolness of the mental images associated ("I put Firebreathing on Killer Bees, holy shit, bees that breathe fire"), though this has become less of a thing than it used to be because more and more cards don't really represent any definite single idea
>Some of the art is nice

Cons
>LUDICROUSLY expensive to play long term in every single supported format
>Game is big enough now that SJWs are slowly making it a target
>Like 10-15% of games are decided entirely by mana screw/mana flood, even among pros
>Skill during play cannot overcome differences in deck power
>No digital version that isn't utter shit

>>55157321
>if you want to play fast and loose at an LGS at least half of the players will be some form of scumbag

If you can't deal with the average nerd, maybe you shouldn't pick up nerd hobbies?

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>>55159344

Oh, I forgot:

>Very few good waifus

The game has a fatal flow
>Lands were a mistake

>>55159376
Go fuck yourself. Every competitive hobby community whether it be board games or running has reprehensible human beings who are insufferable pricks.

"Nerds" need to stop hiding behind years of social stigmatism to excuse their shitty fucking behavior. If anything at all they should be smart enough to grow the fuck up instead of being repulsive scumbags like every other part of our society.

>>55157321
>the sheer depth of interactions due to thousands of cards,
>the learning curve
this is only a problem if you are a software engineer

>>55159461
sup reynad

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Reboot everything starting with C19 to use the Pokemon TCG business model.

>online TCG is free-to-play with missions to unlock boosters
>all paper boosters are redeemable online
>theme deck league online to give them a use
>singles are reprinted in tins and battle decks to keep costs down
>tons of promo and secret prints to "pimp out" your deck if you want
>advertise to teens and really promote the online game

>>55159461
>planeswalkers were a mistake

fixed for you

>>55159344

More cons:
>Piss-poor balance between cards in general, within sets but especially between sets and blocks
>Very pay-2-win (rarity basically is power level these days)

And as for what I'd do to un-fuck it, well, the elephant in the room has to be addressed and shooed away: the game is too expensive. Its cost to players has to be driven drastically down for player retention. Currently everybody gives up within an average of 2 years because all their cards rotated out of Standard, and they lack the extreme $$$$ required to enter Modern. They're practically forced to leave. Only ones that stay are the Stockholm syndrome victims.

They could simply cut the pack prices down to one dollar or so, or they could start printing tighter sets with less chaff (instead of 30 good cards within 300 trash cards, just print the good cards). They could alter the deck construction rules so that you cannot play with decks that consist entirely of mythics and rares anymore. They could lower the deck sizes to 40 from 60 (they were 40 at the start). But one way or another, the price of the _average_ viable deck has to come down in every format.

The con is that the best format is legacy which is very expensive

the pro is that its the best card game invented so far

>>55159550

Lands literally are the biggest design error in Magic though.

Well not lands themselves, but the fact that you have to draw them randomly with your spells. You should have two decks, a land deck and a spell deck, and each turn you choose which to draw from.

>>55159675
t. Burn player

>>55159730

Are you seriously trying to defend the fact that people lose games randomly to mana screw all the fucking time? Even at Pro Tour? Do you fucking think shit like randomly not getting your basic resources, without which you cannot do anything, has any place in a well designed game?

>>55159767
This is why deck construction is important and games in tournaments are played as a series of matches rather than single elimination. A lot of deck construction conceptually is not just about winning but minimizing variability and the dangers of mana screw.

>>55159767
You control the amount of lands, you control the percentages. If you built your deck right and you shuffled enough to make it completely random (mathematically 7 solid riffle shuffles) then yes, its your fault.

>>55159832
Furthermore I knew a guy that every time he didn't get enough lands who throw an autistic fit and take out several cards in his deck for lands. He did this EVERY TIME and never thought about the underlying reasons he wasn't getting the mana he needed at any given time. Mana screw is a real thing, but many people shout about it when their decks are practically designed for it to happen.

>>55159767
Not him but I do not defend mana screw happening. Even with well constructed decks mana screw happens.

Do you know how you make mana screw/flood "acceptable"? You play a lot of games. You sit down and instead of the usual best of 3 bullshit you jam 10-20 games at a time. Doesn't matter if it's Limited, Constructed, or if you're playing casually or competitive. You smash out a dozen games against your opponent and voila, who gives a fuck if someone got screwed a couple times. I don't fucking understand why everyone just starts disassembling their fucking deck at the end of a draft or sealed event; that's their goddamn problem because I just want to keep playing; they are throwing the opportunity to play games away when they disassemble their deck.

Zero fucking problem with mana screw in the game if people actually gave enough of a shit to play. Except they don't, because they aren't motivated to play unless there are prizes on the line; and that's what separates the faggots from the serious players - serious players just want to play and lean and who gives a fuck about prizes.

You might be saying that it's unacceptable in competitive play where you only play best of 3. True, that does suck. But only fucking retards derive all the value in this game from playing at GPs or FNM. If people can't sit down and play over ten games with a single deck if only just to learn the matchup then they're doing it fucking wrong.

Again, mana screw is not a fucking problem. It's only a problem to faggots who don't want to play games.

>>55159625
Awww poor Wendys chef

>>55159673
Legacy is literally the worst format tho

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>>55160456
Wrong. Its the perfect mix of aggro, control, and combo.

Other formats on the other hand............

>>55160487
Combo is autistic and so is draw-go Control
Im so glad they powered that shit down in recent years

>>55160504
>legacy control is draw go

lmao

>>55160532
All control is autistic. Prison, draw-go, tempo. Im glad Legacy will die and with it that gameplay style. No one is gonna pay SCG ,CFB, or CardKingdom $550 for a Revised Tundra or Volcanic Island. They just will not get in. Legacy is a dying format.

>>55160532
To an extent Modern will slowly die too until its replaced with something new albeit much slower then Legacy cause no Reserved List. Modern has a perfect meta. Aggro with some midrange and fringe combo, control thankfully sucks and I get to smash UW Autists with Goblin Guides and Arcbound Ravagers every Friday

>>55160569
>>55160598
>Legacy will die
Meanwhile, legacy just got added to the pro tour

loving
every
laugh

>>55160793
Except Legacy's problem stems from price of cards and availability of cards. In fact, that's the problem in every format.

Doesn't matter. Having Legacy be a team-event format doesn't help revive it. It still has the same fucking primary problem it had before you dumb retard. It's like "fixing" a broken leg with morphine - your fucking leg is still broken.

>>55160868
I dont understand. I already admitted that the con of mtg or legacy is that it is very expensive. You telling me that legacy is very expensive does do anything, its like telling me that i need oxygen to survive. I already know that

>>55157024
>Can someone tell me what the pros and cons of MTG are?
cons:
expensive AF
as someone already said, most of the players are mentally challenged people
it requires a lot of dedication
pro:
still the best collectible card game
>What would you do to make it better?
ban (((reserved))) list
abort the hearthstone tier art direction and mechanic concept

>>55159461
Manaless dredge is a thing if you hate lands. :^)

>>55160017
If a third of your 60 card deck is lands, you're actually likely to have 4 or so of those games decided because either you or your opponent got screwed/flooded and couldn't do shit, it only feels like less of an issue because it can happen to both of you in different ways. I'd much rather have games where we both could play and do what we wanted more reliably than know how often you actually win/lose because mana.

If you check most strong decks, they all have something to just say fuck it to the mana system and be allowed to play the game, be it by having a lot of cantrips so you shrink the odds a lot, using mechanics to not allow the poor design to interfere with their deck so much(tron, dredge, vials, etc) and so on. Even something as simple as fetches exists to get around how bad the mana system is.

Mana screw is a fucking problem and ignoring it just because of how you can just go around gambling for more and more games doesn't make the bad design go away. Other card games have already presented systems that are better solutions and could be balanced with more dedication and even Wizards realises mana is a big issue and keeps trying to see how close they can get to breaking the system without completely removing it.

>>55159105
Pretty much this.

It's basically the DnD of card games.

>>55159675
I don't think it was an error, it's just a mechanic that is rooted in it's time. Magic is older than most of the posters on /tg/ games in general have come a long way.

>>55160017
>yeah mate, don't complain that a third of your games are boring predetermined shit, just play more and waste more time lol
retard

>>55159832

You can minimize it all you want but even when your deck is PERFECT, and I mean "designed by world champion and piloted by world champion" PERFECT, you will still lose to mana screw 10-15% of the time. That is completely unavoidable in the game due to the simple fact that best possible ratio of lands, that literally CANNOT be improved in any way, is not good enough to guarantee lands when you need them, or spells when you don't.

>>55161364
Then the balance is already perfect because your opponent will have lost the same number of times making the score even.

>>55160408
You can't possibly be this stupid. Why would anyone throw money away on Magic when you could just pick up a dozen board games instead?

>>55161364
the balance is already perfect

you can only win or lose

a perfect 50/50

>>55161510
Most people don't want to play against the same guy 10 times with the same 75 cards.

>>55161525
Because your games aren't as flawless as Magic: The Gathering

>>55159625
I don't think that pay to win is the correct terminology. The barrier to entry of eternal formats is ludicrously expensive, but once you've payed it the amount of money you've spent on magic literally doesn't affect your ability to win. I assume you don't play any competitive magic, because lowering the deck size to 40 would break combo and aggro decks so hard that it's not even funny.

>>55159503
Well put, mi amigo blanco.

>>55161332
>a third
With good deck construction, it really should only be around 5%. Unless you're a shitter that plays burn, of course.

>>55161823
Don't forget that's only true if you play eternal formats and can afford those cheap fetchlands, goyim.

>>55161896
Literally just use proxies. Stores around where I am allow proxies for legacy, and I play proxied games all the time with friends.

>>55161823
Not even, any non Brainstorm format (which is literally only Legacy cause even Vintage doesnt have that shit) around 15% of your games will be decided by mana screw, and that includes games you won only cause your opponent flooded or whatever. Also Burn is fine and deck elitism is cancer

>>55158919
Only new players buy packs, though.

>>55157024
If I was in charge of mtg, I'd try to hook poorfags and children once every five years by lowering entry costs.

>>55162252
And stores so they can sell singles. Cheaper packs means cheaper singles.

>>55162252
Icd probably buy them if they were $2. Icd sure as hell do more drafts and sealed since those would be cheaper too.

>>55159442
>Few good waifus
Now that I'll have to disagree with you on that senpai. With five colors and 32 combinations (including none), there's something for everybody!

>>55161796
on the internet pay2win means it costs more money than I'm willing to pay to be competitive

>>55159625
Deck minimums went up because games were absurd at 40.

>>55162340
Stores aren't paying $4.50 for their boosters, though.

>>55162962
They are not paying 2$ either.

>>55161039
Trouble is that the land system is so ingrained that to get rid of it you'd be better off just making a new game entirely.

>>55160456
That would be standard.

>can only get one rare or higher in a pack

fuck even in hearthstone you have 1/3rd the cards and can pull two legendaries in a single pack

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>>55158919
There are actually people that pay more than $2 for packs?

What a world.

>>55161702
>Magic: the Gathering
>Flawless
Next you'll tell me that 3.5 was the best edition of D&D.

its too fucking expensive but the game is good theres no doubt about it
see if theres pauper in yr city, cheap way to get into the game.

>too expensive
Budget decks exist, you know, and there are formats like Pauper.

One of the nice things about MTG is that you're assured some payback for the money you put into the game. If you were to one day quit, you could sell an eternal deck you built for a good chunk of the cost. Not so with many other hobbies.

Everyone seems to want card prices to drop when they buy, but for their value to stay stable over the long-term somehow. If Snapcaster all of a sudden dropped to 30 dollars each you'd probably say, great, finally I can buy a playset. But if the next day WotC decided to reprint it 100 times to drop the price to 5 bucks, you'd probably be rightfully pissed.

MtG is a collection based game. People like knowing their cardboard is worth something. Look at Force of Will, no faster way to kill your game than to constantly reprint things and drive your card prices to zero. It shits in the face of all early adopters.

>>55161805
Mucho kek

I'm deeply concerned about aggro fags being allowed to have an opinion about the game mechanics. That aside, I don't if you compare it to other CCGs or other ways to spend time and money

pros:
>recognized worldwide
>a lot of formats for different tastes
>effort put into lore and art (though not as much as some people would want)
>some chance that your cardboard retains ((((value)))) over time, or even grows
>isn't going anywhere

cons:
>addictive
>WotC is good at milking money (but so are most successful game companies)
>a clusterfuck of mechanics from different eras and rules that sometimes get tweaked, you need to pass actual fucked up exams to become a judge
>uncertain status of the game as a "cyber sports" event that has almost nothing that keeps actual sports from falling apart
>balance between sets generally doesn't exist

I'd love to have access to old cards without having to order them from overseas or shelling hundreds of dollars for a single, but that would probably be bad for the game.

>>55159344
>No digital version that isn't utter shit

This really sucks, the MTGO client is basically the same as it was in 2003. Not to mention the cost is almost 1:1 for an already expensive game.

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>>55157024
>buy in to Standard decks, the most easily accessible and popular format
>3 months (or less) later, your cards are now garbage and worth pennies
>time to buy new cards while they're at their peak pricing before repeating it all over again in another 3 months

>buy in a deck right after a set releases, oh boy time to cross my fingers and hope I made the right choice and that my deck won't be complete garbage and worthless after pro tour in 3 weeks of set release

I can make better use of my time and effort

>>55159344
>anime avatarfag
>whines about SJWs
checks out

Mana screw is intentionally built in so that people can blame it when they lose a game

>>55164779
God I miss Frank and Sons so bad, one of the few things I miss from CA after moving to OR.

>>55168776
god forbid you play a different format. It's true what they say, standard babbies really are retarded.

>>55157024
>PROS
Fun gameplay.
Lots of card choices.
Lots of ways to play the game.
Can last from 20 min to 5 hours.

>CONS
There are a lot of crap cards. Prices are too damn high if you get bored good luck making a new deck. People act in an allmost occult way to non-mtg players, newcombers aare shun by the older players for not spending as much sheckels as the oldfags.

You can solve the cons if you have a group of friends who aren't assholes ans whine how it is bad to proxy cards because they can't pay-to-win you. Most fun format is Comander, add every card costs you printing paper and colors and you will have a blast. Just keep away from the tournaments, game is not compeditive unless you play Standard, in that case the meta is determened by Wizards and there are top 3 decks that steamroll eveything. Also pro players and people whom live of magic are such bitches when you mock or critisise the hobby, fucking faggots.

>>55169166
>add every card costs you printing paper and colors
i dont understand this sentence

>>55157321
You forgot fat.

>>55168776
Rotation is annual. Cards are legal for 2 fucking years.

>>55168777
>avatarfag

You seem to be misusing that term, please familiarize yourself with what it actually means before you post again. Thank you.

>>55168042
>Budget decks exist, you know

Why do people bring this stupid argument up? "This game totes isn't overcosted as fuck, look, you can play this one $50 pile of jank with a 32% winrate". No. That isn't fun you stupid fuck. Playing one shitty deck all year round because that's all you can afford is not fun.

>and there are formats like Pauper.

Unsupported, irrelevant and also unfun because playing only with commons is training wheels mode.

>>55159528
>Doesn't understand what pro means

>>55171815
>playing only with commons is training wheels mode
Confirmed for never having played pauper

>>55168042
>Everyone seems to want card prices to drop when they buy, but for their value to stay stable over the long-term somehow

I don't want card prices to "drop when I buy", I want them to start low and stay low forever. No card should cost more than a dollar. When I buy a $3 pack, it should be virtually guaranteed that the rare is $1, the uncommons $0.30 and and the commons $0.10 a piece and they'll stay at those levels for all eternity. The problems all arise when one card is suddenly $50 or $80 or $500 and you need a playset.

>>55171849

All the interesting cards in the game are rare or mythic. Commons have been vanilla trash since Maro decided that printing complex interactions at every level of rarity is scaring the timmies away.

>>55159625

Most cards aren't even expensive as long as you're not playing Legacy or something. You can make a $20 shitter infect/proliferate artifact -spawn deck to autowin within five turns for less than $20.

>>55168776
>buy modern deck
>three years later the deck is as relevant as ever and the cards even more expensive

feels good not to be retarded

>>55162590
He didn't say little potential for good waifus. He said few good waifus. Which is true. Every named woman on a magic card is just another STRONG FEMALE BATTLE MOM.

>>55172519
>buy modern deck
>it gets banned

oops.

>>55157024
pros
>fun game
>lots of cards
>easy to find people to play with
>a format for everyone

cons
>stupidly retarded expensive if you have not been playing for over a decade
>player base is autistic as fuck
>average deck costs $1000 in most formats
>digital format sucks ass
>sjw company
>t2w as fuck
>despite having thousands of cards there are only about 5 viable decks in any given format
>buyouts happen constantly

>>55157024
>What would you do to make it better?
get rid of the reserve list and open a dedicated reprint facility that churns out card priced over 30 dollars

>>55172247
>Most cards aren't even expensive

"Most cards" aren't playable. "Most cards" don't matter. If shocklands, fetchlands and dual lands are expensive, the entire game is expensive.

>>55168737
>I'd love to have access to old cards without having to order them from overseas or shelling hundreds of dollars for a single, but that would probably be bad for the game.
nah, the secondary market is killing magic. most people cant afford to play anything that retains player base like modern so people spend about a year in standard then leave. commander is the newest fad but wont retain players cause it just boring after a while and still isnt cheap. there is pauper but no LGS support has basically killed the format if you dont want to play on the god awful mtgo client which i dont blame anyone who doesnt

>>55171815
>unfun because playing only with commons is training wheels mode.
what? pauper is a stupidly power fulled format, you have no idea how strong a ton of common cards are, a large portion of them are out right banned in legacy. that said it is unsupported and completely irrelevant

>>55172801

I don't care about power so much as I want cards to be complicated and have exotic out-of-the-left-field effects that combine into absurd synergies. That is what makes this game interesting. Playing with commons only sounds like hell to me regardless of power level involved because commons are just stupidly fucking simple and boring - intentionally designed that way.

>>55172896
maybe you should actually give pauper a try before spouting nonsense then. pauper literally has all that shit and more. i mean fuck im literally running a turn 5 infinite combo deck right now made out of only common cards

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>>55157024
Have more 4 player products that has everything built in it like pic related. Reduce the price range, more quality reprints, telling the secondary market to fuck off and stop putting every tournament level card at mythic rare. Getting rid of the FNM card and replacing them with tokens is for the good of the game, since it chases away tryhards from standard.

>>55172689
>t2w
Trade to win?

>>55173101
Try to win, duh.

>>55173101
>>55173161

Sorry, I thought he meant trading creatures in combat like that shitty hearthstone game.

>>55173088
Well one of the few things in MTG that are actually good value are the theme decks and deckbuilder boxes which is focused towards 2 player mostly which I like better since it's a lot easier to teach one person how to play casually with the duel decks or 2 theme decks. You could easily buy a theme deck (which comes with 2 boosters) + a builder box for like $40 total and have plenty of room to play casually.

in terms of mana screw/flood, would something like player who goes first gets to scry 3 before the game starts, and the player who goes second gets to scry 2?

>>55172963
Compare pauper to what modern or legacy decks actually try to do.
Even something that is considered very simple in those formats like D&T makes a way bigger use of magic's interesting mechanics with just a flickerwisp than what pauper can actually do and that's without delving into decks with even more unusual ways of playing the game. I get pauper's pros of being a format with an actually reasonable price, but saying it actually has better mechanics without the uncommons and rares is spouting bullshit.

>>55159603
Printing the jacetice league over and over was a mistake.

MtG has way too may issues to be worth paying for, but are there any card games where you have something as interesting as the stack?

So manyother games are better but they don't have the same feeling of having si much potential with the tricks you can actually pull off with how cards interact with each other.

>>55173088
>actually defending lowering the quality of FNM prizes just to drive away tryhards
How can you be so stupid? Tokens are seldom that relevant and they can easily halfass their job on them. Meanwhile, some FNM have great art. If they are popular, we can get cheap reprints later like lingering souls, if not, we at least get to see some new card a few of us might like, like path. Killing FNM promos will reduce the chance of us getting sneak peaks and of new art appearing in reprints.

>>55177173
Not really, there's some interesting interactions and strategies in other games but MTG is the most "interactive" TCG I'm aware of.

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>>55161564

Unless you play this. Then you win 100% of the time :^)

>>55162305
How would you do that exactly?

>>55162340
For stores only. The stores would just pocket that investment. Singles cost wouldn't go down, the prices would stay the same so stores can pocket the money they saved from cheaper packs.

Pros
>Insane level of card pool, can be narrowed by formats
>The game has a lot of allowance for flavor with its colors
>Limited is a constant thing unlike other games like YGO
>Power level is at least attempted to be balanced
>Some very nice pieces of art in that sweet spot before numagic and after the really inconsistent beginning era
>Has room for casual and competitive players depending on what kind of stuff you want to play

Cons
>Packs being designed for limited is a shitty excuse to reprint Hill Giants in packs that are supposed to be intended for competitive
>Mythic Rare
>Reserved List
>Virtual client sucks
>New sets have been really hit or miss

>>55178287
And then one of the stores decides to get some profit by lowering prices since they have so much on stock and force others to either follow it or miss on money.

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>>55178239
Winning and losing are for normies. I always play to draw,

>>55157024
If you're angling to make your own game that improves on mtg, dont. You're not that good. For all its many faults mtg is without a doubt the best designed card game to date.

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>>55168896
I'll be having that exact sentiment in about 2 years. The show is still going strong apparently.

>pros

decent player base, generally fun to play and learn, always new cards and sets coming out so the game is always shifting and changing, the lore is interesting and the art is often pretty nice on cards. It's a casual hobby that you can generally step in and out of as needed and can dedicate a lot or no time.

>cons

Horrendously expensive, the reserve list makes competitive magic prohibitively expensive for most players and can even make casual play very overpriced for a lot of people. The player base tend to be NEETs or other social outcasts, so often you'll be playing against someone who will be rather weird and have poor hygiene standards. The player base can also be very toxic/autistic about rules, some people I've met through magic have been amazingly nice people, and others have been absolute cunts, and sadly the cunts outnumber the good ones. The complexity of the game and the hard entry point (both in terms of cost and in terms of learning all the rules) can be difficult for younger players especially but is even a deterrent to a lot of older players. The game has a *major* image problem, i generally dont tell my normie friends I play it because it's so heavily associated with fat neckbeards and autistic perma-virgins, and I think plenty of people who might be interested in playing a card game like magic don't play it because they don't want to be associated with that image, which creates a circle of only autistic people playing.

>>55179735
I've been playing Magic for 18 years, and that's complete bullshit.

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>>55157024
Pros
> Fun outside of FNM and tournis
> Deckbuilding is enjoyable
> Acquiring new cards to try out is nice
Cons
> Playing to compete in tournis sucks the fun out
> Specific "best decks" to constantly watch for/combat if you attend tournis/FNM
> Expensive as hell if you want the best stuff
Bonus PRO
> You'll be happy when you stop trying to be pro and burning your $$$

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>>55157024

It's a very fun game, but it can be expensive, especially if you want to play in any actual format, such as modern for example.
The obvious solution is to play burn or some kind of other budget deck, but most people
want to play decks that involve a lot of expensive staples like dark confidant or tarmogyf.
Expensive cards are fine, but mtg has a lot of them, and usually you need a playset, such as the fetchlands.
And while not a problem with the game so much as the players, there are a lot of people at least on /tg/ that
like to call you poor if you aren't happy about the price tag of the game

>>55177867
I would argue that Netrunner has far more weird interactions that can happen.

>>55177173
The chain in YGO works almost identically, especially with SEGOC.

>>55180541
>there are a lot of people at least on /tg/ that like to call you poor if you aren't happy about the price tag of the game
At my LGS, it's all either trust fund baby boomers or 20-somethings who keep maxing credit cards who play competitively.

>>55181059
Baby boomers at FNM? Woah

>>55162590
If you aren't sexually attracted to Emrakul then I'm sorry but I don't know what to say to you.

>>55181390
It's mostly baby boomers. Most of the younger crowd has been driven away from MtG and D&D by how arrogant and elitist they are.

>>55157024

Pros:

- Great combat, resource (more on this below) and other mechanical systems, especially the stack.

- Massive amount of card variety. There is so much that can be done, so many neat little interactions and combos. The sheer quantity of cards means that there is room for stuff like One With Nothing to exist, cards that appear to be useless but present a cool little puzzle of sorts to solve in trying to use them.

- Lots of players, making it easy to get into.

Cons:

- Lands being in the deck. This made sense when the game started but is wildly outdated by now and makes the game feel bad to play.

- The massive card pool is heavily bloated with cards that even the designers admit are absolutely useless and have no reason to exist. Unlike the neat outlier cards mentioned above these are things like "reprint the same lifelink 3-drop, but with 1 less stat point this time." They're objectively strictly worse, everyone knows it and it still gets sold anyway. Terrible, terrible abuse of the business model and terrible for the game. Basically there are thousands of cards but not all of those are actually cards that can be used, the real number is much lower.

- The large community is nice but the secondary market for cards this has generated is silly. Due to the previous issue you practically need to buy singles, since packs are full of things nobody will ever use for anything. However, singles are inflated in value which means that even very cheap decks are more expensive than it's actually worth to play the game. You can totally bypass this issue due to how easy it is to proxy cards but it's worth noting if you ever want to play with assholes that will freak out about it.

- The color pie is cool in concept but poorly defined. Blue is knowledge and... uh, fish? Also anything gamewarping that the four other colors can't be allowed to have. Red is creativity and passion! So they get burn and rarely anything else. It all just seems very sloppily handled.

>>55182266

Rant too long, second comment.

One pro I forgot to mention that kinda feeds off of the third one is the massive number of formats that people actually play. EDH, Pauper, Cubelet and so on. Even really wacky things like Frontier where you move creatures across a grid of lands. There are a lot of ways to use your cards.

Fixes:

- Stop printing literal trash. Every card needs to have some conceivable purpose, if it isn't "good" then it should at least be fun to meme with or ooze with flavor.

- Make the game more affordable, provide more gameplay value from packs. Use decks as places to reprint key cards in a way everyone can get them and do it frequently. Fuck the secondary market, double fuck "the investors." It's a game. Make it easy for customers to obtain and play the game.

- Put lands in a second deck with the player getting one per turn. Playtest variants of this to find one that still makes landbases interesting to optimize.

- Rework the color pie. Give all colors more stack manipulation, because in this digital CCG world that's the one big advantage this game really has left.

- Either planeswalkers at all rarities or no more planeswalkers. Do the damn thing or don't do it, enough of this half-assing.

- Way more SJW stuff to kill off the worst parts of the playerbase with rage-strokes.

So many fucking poorfags in this thread lmao

>>55182266
>- Lands being in the deck. This made sense when the game started but is wildly outdated by now and makes the game feel bad to play.

You are trash.

>- The massive card pool is heavily bloated with cards that even the designers admit are absolutely useless and have no reason to exist. Unlike the neat outlier cards mentioned above these are things like "reprint the same lifelink 3-drop, but with 1 less stat point this time." They're objectively strictly worse, everyone knows it and it still gets sold anyway. Terrible, terrible abuse of the business model and terrible for the game. Basically there are thousands of cards but not all of those are actually cards that can be used, the real number is much lower.

What card game doesn't do this? You don't draft anyway so why is this even a problem for you unless you crack packs like a retard? This game has 92 sets out. 92.

>- The large community is nice but the secondary market for cards this has generated is silly. Due to the previous issue you practically need to buy singles, since packs are full of things nobody will ever use for anything. However, singles are inflated in value which means that even very cheap decks are more expensive than it's actually worth to play the game. You can totally bypass this issue due to how easy it is to proxy cards but it's worth noting if you ever want to play with assholes that will freak out about it.

Don't play with assholes. Also don't be poor.

>- The color pie is cool in concept but poorly defined. Blue is knowledge and... uh, fish? Also anything gamewarping that the four other colors can't be allowed to have. Red is creativity and passion! So they get burn and rarely anything else. It all just seems very sloppily handled.

It's fine, look at old magic. Nu-magic is the problem. At least we're getting more green merfolk. I want green sharks.

>>55182401

Uh no, I actually spend several grand a year on frivolous bullshit. That still doesn't meant MTG is worth spending any money on in its current state, it's clearly overpriced by a shitload. There's a different between being willing to spend a lot on a hobby and being very obviously taken advantage of by a shitty game.

>>55182467
So buy singles of old product?

I haven't bought packs since Innistrad. It's not overpriced.

>>55182478

>it's not worth it

"No no, just buy the shit that isn't worth buying a different way that is still overpriced! Do it!"

No, those days are over. Better games and better companies exist. You can keep throwing your money at this thing if you want but I'm happier without it, it's simply not a good enough game anymore for the cost.

>>55182501
Why are you even here

You just play with shit people

40k is a fucking trash game but I manage to enjoy it when the right people are around. Maybe you're letting you venomous opinions isolate you from good people.

>>55168745
If you think it costs the same to play online as it does in paper you're a fucking poopy pants dummy head.

>>55182633
It's not a big enough difference to be enticing.

>>55182360
Generally approve of your rant. Not sure how I feel about the land base thing. I enjoy lands, I enjoy having them and sure... Sometimes you get mana screwed but that's all part of the deck building experience.

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>>55168777
>thinking that's avatarfagging

Pros
- The massive amount of shit you can do, cards like mirror gallery, abyssal persecutor, relentless rats and alt win cons
- The conciseness of the rules, every fucking thing is written down
- Very high skillcap for a card game, in deck building and actual play
Cons
- Expensive
- Has the limits of a paper card game, like no card generation and tokens die when not in battlefield
Play with friends on cockatrice for the best ( and cheapest ) experience

>pros
>absolutely amazing game with tons of interaction and deckbuilding. there is a decktype for every person.
>some of the craziest card interactions ever seen menage to be balanced
>well menaged.
>the artwork is so good and cohesive with the theme of each set that you really feel dragged into a world. I don't know any other game, card game or not, that does this better.
>the artwork depicts everything. lands, people, battles, magic, items, cities and streets,animals...
>played everywhere and in 10 different formats by all ages
>strong support for draft format
>the general theme of the game is broad and appealing
>not hard to start playing. cards are not walls of text like some japanese games.
>should be easy to sell your collection for 40% or more of what you paid when you are over, unless you wait too long.


>negs
>like all card games, variance can decide who wins, but unlike many of them, you get to do nothing but watch yourself win/lose if one of the players get too many or too few lands
>hidden behind the many fun card interaction one dark truth is haunting the game: in longer games(no fast aggro decks)cards trade one for one so ever drawing just one more or less land than your opponent can be what decides the game; in shorter games(fast aggro decks) having a card to play on 1st 2nd and 3rd turn is a gigantic advantage that matters more than any decision during the game.
>TL;DR of the above. the randomness decides the game often and when it does skill doesn't matter and you may not even get to play your cards.
>most formats are 300 dollars or more expensive to play and even casual play can rise to that depending on group.
>some components of the game are uninteractive with each other: there are many cards that can't be affected by creatures battling, that is the main interactive component of the game.

>>55159767
>Do you fucking think shit like randomly not getting your basic resources, without which you cannot do anything, has any place in a well designed game?
Of course it doesn't, but the fanboy lemmings that infest threads like this will defend it rather than acknowledging the game has a severe inherent flaw.

Retarded faggots like these, for instance: >>55160017
>>55159837

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>>55182360
>Rework the color pie. Give all colors more stack manipulation
OP here, care to elaborate?

Alternate Land System:

>You have two decks, your Spells Deck and your Land Deck
>At the start of the game, you draw a five card hand from your Spells Deck
>At the start of each turn, you draw one card from your Spells Deck, and then put the top card of your Land Deck into play
>If a card would allow you to search your Library, you can search either your Spells or Land Deck. If you search for and put a Land card into your hand, you can then, on subsequent turns, choose to play that Land instead of flipping the top card of your Land deck - you can still only play one Land each turn

Thoughts?
To my initial intuition, this seems like it would solve the mana-screw/flood issue (everyone's guarranteed one land per turn) while retaining mana-base construction (you still need to find a solid colour ratio, and things like enters-tapped lands are still good but can potentially screw you as you don't get to choose which land you play each turn (unless you have fetch lands etc).

>>55159767
Lands are one of the best design decisions in mtg due to the insane amount of varience it allows.

Unlike in some games where resources are constant, you can have a red aggro deck, a red midrange deck, a red control deck that operate on entirely different land densities. But wait, you can add ANY other card to your deck, all you need is lands of that color at the cost of consistency, life and/or tempo.
But it's not over there, you can play lands with special abilities! Lands that are better than normal with certain cards, lands that hurt you in return for speed, lands that don't generate mana but have powerful abilities!

Want the most consistent manabase ever? You can do that, want to push the limits of power and consistency? Well, you can try.

>>55184014
>game is now Midrange: The Curvening
Absolutely horrible idea. Think of every high cost bomb in the came, and now imagine dropping it consistently on the turn you would draw it or earlier if you ramped at all.
Imagine what happens when all you draw spells ALWAYS hit gas, making combo and aggro a nightmare to fight for control decks.

Just look at Hearthstone's current meta to see why consistent, non-card mana is a bad thing. Druid is literally the top 3 meta decks because it's the class with ramp and a massive card draw spell to get tons of gas after spending all their cards on ramp.

>>55184095
Fair point. What if you had to choose to either play a land or draw a spell?

>>55164804
It was

>>55179916
Love F&S. Don always gives good deals. Fuck Card Addiction tho.

>>55157024
>Pros
Pretty deep game
>Cons
Absurdly expensive, cucked brainlets left right and center as soon as you don't play legacy of vintage, absurdly bad investment.

>>55184095
I think he has the right idea, only that the current mana costs are an issue.
We could reduce the strength of duals or increase the cost of cards, but there's an easier time balancing cards when decks don't have max or min color number.

>>55159673
Best format is playing commander with your friends and sometimes alcohol

Pros
>tons of formats that are regularly played
>can actually play games with more than two players and still remains fun
>lots of different deck types that legitimately play differently (in some formats)
>will pretty much always be around thanks to how popular it is and how well it does
>varied and interesting artwork in older sets
>tons of lore both in the game and in supplementary material
>fun to build decks thanks to huge ass card pool
>also has lots of creative mechanics that help make it fun to play
>Wizards handles the game way better than most other companies even if it's retarded in many ways

Cons
>the player base sucks
>competitive formats are expensive as fuck and even any casual group runs the risk of collapsing due to someone starting up the arms race of "who spent the most on their deck"
>the modern take on the game is so samey: the artwork is consistently the same digital garbage rather than the smorgasbord of the past, decks are being pushed to all become midrange/aggro while other archetypes fall by the wayside, zany mechanics falling by the wayside for more boring +1/+1 counter shit
>they release way too many cards way too often and 90% are pure garbage
>pretty much forced to buy singles because almost all sealed product is overpriced, underpowered, or otherwise poorly conceived
>huge gaps between starting players and new players

>>55180228
Name a better CCG, I'll wait.

>>55182360
I like that last idea

>>55182360
kys or just stick to your casul games

If you want to play Hearthstone and Force of Will, they already exist.

>>55183011
The difference used to be small but is massive now. If you actually keep up with the game you'll see that MTGO id expensive but when a top tier Vintage deck costs 700$ online and at least 16k in paper you can't deny the difference.

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>>55185397
At that point it is a different game so just play a different game. You can't errata the tens of thousands of cards printed so that they were balanced around every player having Abundance in play at all times.

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>>55159503
>wah wah, why can't people with social problems just fuck off from the only thing they enjoy?!
>only me, Stacy, and Chad get to enjoy card games, no nerds allowed

>>55185855
Yeah, I know, which is why I really think some MtG reimagined could be really useful or at least interesting. The resource system is awful, but I really enjoy the rest of the game in spite of the lands. Just like some other games have resource systems I like more but don't have a card design that is good enough to actually complement it.

>>55187010
>The resource system is awful
I really don't understand the constant bitching about the land system in mtg. From a corporate standpoint I get it, it's not a great design if a new player can randomly not be able to play the game, especially if they built their mana curve wrong. But from an actual design point it's echelons more powerful than the endless fixed resource systems where nobody gives a shit about 1 drops and deck building is rigidly segregated by faction instead of being able to physically force whatever combination of cards I want to play.

>>55187010
No, it is not awful. Lands are absolutely key to the balance of magic and allowing the different types of deck archetypes. Lands create significant strategic choices in deck building and playing. They add an element of randomness and sometimes create non-games but mulligans are the best tool to balance this. The randomness creates another axis of planning and rewards players that think about the odds of drawing/playing certain cards at certain times. With a land deck and a nonland deck mtg would lose the strategic depth of cards like Gush, mana rocks, aggro creatures, and much more.

afaik the 2-deck thing is already being done by Force of Will and we've seen how crappy Hearthstone's mana replacement is too. There's nothing inherently wrong with a card game having chance as a central factor and longstanding games like Poker have chances at non-games as well but it doesn't make Poker a bad game.

>>55187168
Not to mention the elegance and simplicity of each player just having one deck that they shuffle and play from. Mulligans and playing best out of 3 or 5 addresses the randomness in competitive games and in casual games the randomness is a good thing.

>>55187303
This, nobody says the putting system in golf is broken because it's possible to hit the ball away from the hole.

I've not played for almost 15 years but I always get tempted to look back in at how things are every now and then.

I'm 100% a casual/kitchen table player so things like fun cubes, cheap decks (penny dreadful) balanced against each other, or battlebox seem like they would be the way to go for me ... if I had anyone to play.

That those things are even an option certainly shows a strength of MTG, as others have said the sheer number of cards allows for a lot of different play styles and formats.

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>pros
it's a fun game with a shitload of different cards and strategies, and a good variety of playable formats
>cons
some of these cards are too expensive yet essential for any competent deck, yet wotc refuses to reprint those cards for some strange reason, so instead you're either forced to pay greasy neckbeards ludicrous amounts of money for a piece of cardboard or, if you're of triple digit IQ, import chinese counterfeits.

If you hate mana screw so much then fuck off back to Yugioh. It's supposed to be a card game not rock paper scissors.

>>55164695
You can get up to two rares in a pack actually, three if you're opening something with transform cards. Hearthstone packs also only give you five card total, as opposed to fifteen, and are literally free.

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Why can't they just reprint the good, sought after cards and make new sets out of those reprints instead of constantly introducing new, disgustingly underpowered cards nobody is going to play, anyway?

>>55160598
Modern is just Death's Shadow vs Eldrazi with lots of different colored sprinkles of value-town.

>>55189412
>Titanshift vs Eldrazi

A thought on the lands issue.
What if each person had five extra slots in their sideboard that could only be filled with basic lands.
Then, when drawing their first hand, it's only 6 cards. Mulligans are done as normal, then after you keep a hand, you take one basic land from your sideboard and put it in your hand and proceed from there.
Said sideboard lands would be recommended to be kept in different sleeves/unsleeved/etc from the rest of your deck so that one can tell them apart and can easily tell them from the normal sideboard cards (also it's a fuckan basic land, everyone will know you have one and it'll always be the first you play)
How would this affect Magic?
It's an odd idea that came to me in a dream.

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>>55189834
You'd have to ban a ton of cards because it enables combos so easily. Magic can't be changed this way officially but casually some people try rules like that because none of them play combos that abuse it.

>>55185805
That's great if you play that format but think of someone who plays slightly more than casually in standard, extended and commander and likes deckbuilding. It's a lot to invest the way MTGO is set up right now since the client is garbage and there's no crossover incentive like with the Pokemon TCG where you get to redeem physical products in the online version.

MTGO desperately needs a modern update for the client and how they handle digital card distribution. That Magic Duels game was pretty good but it suddenly became abandonware and they had little interest in marketing or updating it anyway.

>>55186649
>ummm acktchually my superior intelligence is why I haven't bathed before coming to the draft and can't take two seconds to realize I am screaming at the top of my voice over pieces of cardboard surrounded by a mix of 15 and 30 year olds, none of whom are women
> no stacies or chads allowed
> want to see my collection of hentai alternate art proxies?

>>55193716
>want to see my collection of hentai alternate art proxies?

Kinda

>>55160569
Whats with the salt and tears?

>>55171882
That mostly makes pauper a stable format, and not subject to the modern wotc degeneracy.

>>55176887
The mechanics and decisions are more subtle. Ive found it to be more complex,and generally harder comparing to modern. Ive only dabbled with legacy so cant really compare.

>>55159344
the lady pictured is a cripple right?

>>55185774
Lmao the "TIME AND EFFORTS" meme about mtg neckbeards is actually real. Fuck yourself dude

>>55161575
People will play the same deck for literally months.

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>>55157321
i've played other card games but competitive magic (really, any semblance to a "tournament") is the worst social experience I have ever had in my life. Everyone is uber serious, socially inept people who act like mtg is the only thing in the world they can pride themselves on. Alpha nerd syndrome at its finest. It's truly horrifying.

>>55159105
I play either elf swarm or blue control. But then, I started during ice age, and don't do tournaments or fnm anymore.

>>55196654
Why is art with Magic characters playing their own card game so appealing?

>>55159344
The only formats worth playing are sealed and draft and casual edh.

Edh doesn't rotate, you can easily play sealed or draft with a cube/draft sim, and if that's not cheap enough for you, you can do a whole deck of high quality prints on cardstock for very cheap, and then just stick them in sleeves.

You can quality proxy EDH for <$30, and you can easily make a quality proxy cube for 8-10 players for under $200.

Or if you don't wanna be that picky, you can always just draft a couple of deckbuilders toolkits as cubes.

>>55171869
Well, wizards doesn't itself set any card prices. It's entirely based on supply and demand. Cards are only worth what players think they're worth, and there's no real way to change things except to change rarity issues or print powerful cards at uncommon, and even then fatal push is 10 bucks. Again, there's no real way to do it.

Essentially, how would you do it? Start reprinting powerful cards en masse? Then collection value tanks and vets leave like FoW.

Modern decks will cost ya anywhere from 400 to 1k usually, but it's not as if budget burn isn't good. And modern isn't designed for beginners anyways. The point is, there's very little that can be done without tanking collection value, and the cost of standard is comparable to most other card games of this genre. How much cheaper can a booster go? Again, WotC doesn't set prices, players do.

>>55196654
>People playing in tournaments
>Even FNM
>Not taking it seriously
Do you know what a tournament is? Do you know what competition is? Bitch all you want about people being try-hard at the kitchen table, but when you put money down, you put it down to win.
Poor behavior is one thing, but the competitive spirit is another, and if you don't like it, get the fuck out. You don't need to be somewhere you don't enjoy.

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>pros
- The lore is engaging and each mechanic has it's niche and flavor
- Great to play with friends who are as experienced
- It's the grandfather of TCG's
- EDH

>cons
- As others have said, most mtg competitive communities are awkward and toxic for many reason
- Most people deem it too complicated to play, due the amount of mechanics, colors and mana curving
- Literally over a third of each deck consists of what is needed as resources to play: Lands. I've played other cards games with different resourcing options to allow more card variety. Over the years of tcg and mtg I've played, Magic will never leave my heart, but lands are a waste of space and time. Don't even get me started on fetch lands and how they destroy the meta...
>Competitive is paytowin

>>55185447
He knows what's up.

>>55182456
>>55182360
>>55182266
>>55198066
>lands are bad

I'll never understand this sentiment. Lands are fucking great, and I'd argue one of the key components in why Magic has gotten so big. Couple reasons.
One, they give a consistent, cheap venue for players to express themselves. You can pick any of plenty of different land art, which makes decks customizable and feel more personal.

Two, it makes the game more random. It makes the game more luck-reliant.
What does that mean?

Well, it means that the better player doesn't always win.
That tends to suck in competitive, but it's necessary for the game to draw new players. If a game had total consistency the better player will almost always win. That's a quick way to kill your game. If noobs can't ever take a match at FNM, then they won't come back. People are easily discouraged when they're not invested yet. But show them the taste of victory, even if it's one match out of ten, and they might realize how fun the game can be. It's the same reason Poker is popular, or COD has the noob tube. There's a level of randomness there that makes the game more accessible and exciting.

And besides, ask any big poker player. Luck is very important, but not as important as skill, and part of strategy and skill is to play with the hand you're dealt - literally. Sometimes you have to fight uphill, sometimes you're in the lead from the start, but this constantly changing dynamic keeps the game fresh in every round.

And WotC knows this. That's why GP's and tournaments generally aren't single or double elimination or anything, but determined by overall consistency and winrate over a large swathe of matches. You never need to win every game, nor should you expect to. Nor would that be a good thing for the game.

>>55197982
True, and again, there's really nothing wrong with that. For every FNM there's a couple tables with some guys playing casual EDH. Why don't you play with them?

>>55197982
You can have competitive spirit and still socialize. It doesn't hurt to network out. Not everyone has to, but it seems that the culture the mtg community has is very "anti social" when it comes to events.

I've played many other card games (and their was a lot) and mtg is something else... I don't play competitively in magic anymore. I don't like spending my recreation time feeling like I'm at a funeral.

>>55198233
EDH crowd is good.

And that is a pro for magic. Different formats foster different communities.

>>55198233
>For every FNM there's a couple tables with some guys playing casual EDH
What kind of LGS do you go to? The FNM players actually leave room for other people?

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>>55198233
This. This. This.
Holy fuck I couldn't have said it better myself, well done lad. Lands are an essential part of MTG and a big factor that contributes to luck, which is ALSO essential, and FUN.

Lands also have gr8 flavour

no.
fuck the land system.

it does good things and bad things. we can't ignore either, but we can expect someone to be able to create a more reliable resource system that attempts to do most of the same good things with less of the bad ones.
clearly not impossible.

Final fantasy TCG did a good attempt as far as i've heard, and many online mtg clones introduced some additional mechanics that halved the influence of the bad aspects of lands with all the upsides, a good amount of them can work in paper too.
some games got completely different resource systems that enable you to build 1-2-3 colors decks with increasing burden, without having land cards in them.

i don't get your arguments about "but you need luck to make noobs win once against stronger players or they will leave".
because, funny enough, some people decide to no longer play/not get into mtg due to lands.
Card games without lands still have high variance. a bad deck can still win with good hands, but both players get to play their bad hands at least.

>>55198233
I wonder of the RNG aspect is why Duel Masters, WotC's own casual magic clone which used all cards as lands instead, included the shield trigger keyword (letting you play cards for free instead of just putting them in your hand if they were in the face-down cards you use as health).

>>55198233
You forgot to mention how the goal of most decks is to actually get around and be allowed to ignore lands, because they realise that if they actually try to play with lands as they are, they can't compete.
Look at modern T1:

>burn
A lot of interchangable and extremelly cheap cards. Even something costing 3 mana is hardly ever around.

>death's shadow
Good amount of cantrips, delve creatures so they can use minimal mana for them, wraiths to help cantrips cycle even faster.

>Tron
Lands that are worth way more than usual, since you need very few of them and you also have maps.

>affinity
Moxes and drums pretty much are what keeps this deck alive.

>storm
Plenty of rituals to give you your mana


And so on. This is without going into legacy where the alternate mana sources are even stronger and completely ignoring fetch lands which reduce the limits lands impose. If lands were a good idea, you wouldn't have so many decks trying their best to not actually have to interact with lands because o how unreliable they are and you wouldn't have even mono decks running fetches just because they want to thin their deck from useless draws.