Why don't any of the 40k races use relativistic cannons

>>55116903
Because shut the fuck up

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>>55116921

>>55116903
40k is a game in which dudes with skulls on their armor stab other dudes with spikes on their armor while power metal plays in the distance.

All else is secondary.

>>55116953
>power metal
fuck that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uSM-ihNGHs

>>55116903
You're retarded.

>>55116970
I don't disagree with you, Bolt Thrower is awesome. But consider this too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1wSSZ-iFs

Because relativistic cannons aren't really a realistic idea. In order to accelerate the relativistic projectile at anything resembling a 'realistic' acceleration you'd need a fucking long cannon.

Someone did some calculations on that:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=3720053#p3720053

Working with a 1 ton projectile that hits the target at 0.8c:
- If you can accelerate the projectile at 10g, you'd need a gun of 1961 AU in length
- If you can manage 1000g, you'd need a gun that's 20 AU in length.

Good luck aiming a gun that long in any reasonable timeframe.

>>55116903
Because then there would be no game, which means you wouldn't buy figurines.

>>55116903
Because rocks are not free, citizen.

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>>55116903
>>55117617
Here.

>>55116903
I don't know but that screencap was written by some underaged high-school kid who can't seem to write a coherent text to save their life. How is SETI-silence a greater indicator of high-relativistic speeds being attainable rather than that no-one is picking up the signal? How come relativistic bombs are subject to the uncertainty principle in any relevant sense? Why would anyone bother railgunning an entire starship into a planet when they could just carpet bomb it with nukes? What does gun equalizer principle have to do with any of this? Why not take the risk and achieve interstellar travel so that WE can be the ones exterminating THEM? If you're gonna be such a paranoid schizophrenic literally afraid of everything and need policemen to protect you from night-time, why the fuck even live?

>>55117714
What you are looking at in that screencap is the result of someone who started with a conclusion (exterminate all who aren't us) and then failed at working backwards to try and justify the conclusion.

>Why would anyone bother railgunning an entire starship into a planet when they could just carpet bomb it with nukes?
Because sending a relativistic projectile from one system to another to wipe all life on a planet sounds a lot more realistic than actually going over there if you don't do the math

>>55117585
finally an actual reason for the existence of the fuckhuge 40k ships

>>55117714
Because the author fancies himself as a Hard Man™ making the Hard Decisions™ (while hard)

>>55117617
>>55117626
Also because physical reality in 40k doesn't entirely adhere to the laws of physics due to the influence of the Warp, and that means that a rock hurled at a planet around a star a few light years away might deviate in its course a fraction of a degree and miss by millions of miles because Space Is Big.

>>55117741
Well, if we can finally get that electro-magnetic drive working, sending an asteroid towards an inhabited planet in Alpha Centauri or wherever is actually not all that expensive. No more expensive than going there ourselves, anyway. We can already reliably land small satellites on small meteors, merely hitting a planet is easy by comparison, especially since neither planet nor projectile needs to survive the impact so no pesky braking maneuvers.

>>55116903
>Relativistic weapons.
I think I still have my reply to that image lying around from a a while back.

>Throw giant balloons at it.

>The interaction between a relativistic projectile and any matter at all is going to be incredibly energetic. The energy involved will be far more than sufficient to fragment the projectile. These fragments will be significantly less dangerous, and if interception occurs sufficiently far away many will miss the earth entirely.

>Given the velocity of the interceptor is virtually insignificant, the probability of a successful interception can be raised by making the interceptor as large as possible. With a film weighing 10g/m2 and hydrogen holding it up at 3Pa, a balloon 500m across would weigh about 8 tonnes.

>Due to the ~1500m^2 cross-section of the balloon, sending enough balloons and positioning them accurately enough to ensure a collision should be plausible. (The balloons DON'T need to be travelling fast) Once a collision occurs, fragmentation of the projectile is highly likely. The collision will liberate approximately 4.5TJ or 1kt-TNT of energy per square meter of foil involved. I don't know the radius of material that would participate, but an estimate of a 3m radius gives a total liberation of 85TJ or 20kt-TNT. As the projectile would need to pass through both sides of the balloon, the collision would then be equivalent to initiating two "Fat Man" nuclear weapons 16us apart, directly on the nose of the kinetic bomb.

>Because of the small mass of each balloon, deploying vast numbers should be possible. Combined with the possibility of course adjustments prior to deployment and the large cross-sectional area of each balloon, so long as they are launched ASAP I believe this would make a realistic defence against a relativistic kinetic bomb.

Basically: far from being a magic kill-everyone device, a relativistic bomb is eggshell-fragile. Any defence at all would be enough to to destroy it.

>>55117585
It would be easier to make a relativistic rocket if you have somewhere to put the fuel.

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>>55118089

>>55118191
hmm, good points, but the problem with things going at nearly the speed of light is that they're hard to see coming. OP is a faggot, but he's right about that much at least. My gut feeling is that in order to react to an incoming threat moving at nearly the speed of light, you need to be watching the entire sky out to a distance of a light year in order to have half a year to get your defenses in place. That's a fuckton of space to watch. Practically speaking you'll have less time than that since your defenses don't accelerate to near c instantaneously. Yes, they don't NEED to go fast in order to do their job, but if you're deploying them in reaction to a threat, they will be. There's just no time otherwise, unless you have a sphere of balloons surrounding your planet at a distance of one lightyear.

>>55118191

I came up with something similar; a bunch of asteroids/Kuiper belt objects/lashed together space junk placed in the probable flight paths of any potential relativistic attack, so that the worlds you want to protect are constantly shadowed by a sacrificial shield.

>>55118125
Except as >>55117585 pointed out, depending on how good fast your cannon can accelerate it's projectile your might be several times longer than the solar system or merely extend from the Earth to Uranus.

Now, I did some calculations and concluded that in order to hit an earth sized object in alpha centauri you would miss it if your (solar system sized gun) was off by as little as 1.77*10^8 degrees (assuming that absolutely nothing interferes with your projectile)

>>55118125
That em drive has an astonishingly low, barely measurable, acceleration. Can it even reach such velocities before reaching Alpha Centauri ?

>>55118407
>as little as 1.77*10^8 degrees
I think you mean 10^-8

Now for the fun question: Can we pinpoint a planet with that accurately ?

Margins of error in the methods used to locate the target planet are going to be a problem.

>>55118711
Hell at that level, the diffrence in heat across the gun at diffrent angles (due to diffrent amount of solar radiation) are going to cause diffrent levels of expantion of whatever hyper material you build the thing out of.
not to mention the problem with bits of rock hitting your gun whilst you are building it

Because planets that aren't airless balls of dirt aren't unlimited.

>>55116903
>projectile passes by a rock you didnt perfectly calculate the position
>is pulled out of position by a billionth of a metre
>projectile misses target by millons of miles

relatavistic atillery is dumb

>>55116970
>>55117129
>not listening to post-ironic throwback 80's death thrash using dialouge from old Gov'nator movies withe you shoot the stabby and stab the shooty
Come on guys, this is an easy one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDgSUA3jD-w

>>55118347
Well, settings with ftl or ftl comms can just have watch posts out on the fringes.

>>55116903
Planets aren't free.

>>55117626
If like how the paint costs more than fuel, servitors and food combined.

>>55116903
>thinking that a civilization could achive interstellar flight and still be stupid enough to start a war with other civilizations BECAUSE.

>>55116903
Because there might be something valuable on that planet to the Imperium. There's tons of Dark Age technology lying around and finding a decent schematic is a massive gain for the entire Imperium. For the same reasons, just immediately nuking literally every potential threat is silly because you could potentially gain something from that planet, not to mention that planets that sustain life are exceedingly rare in the universe. If I were an advanced alien, I would probably just fly around the universe observing other civilisations instead of chimping out and destroying every single one. Maybe there's something to be gained from them which I could never find on my homeworld.

The universe is 14 billion years old--let's say that's the exact number for sake of argument. It therefore took 13,999,999,900 years for radio to develop on our planet. Let's say a civilization developed one tenth of one percent faster than we did. They would have invented radio 14 million years ago. We have no idea how much faster someone can develop than we did. THAT is why you never, under any circumstances, shoot at another star system. In something the size of the universe there is always going to be someone a tenth of a percent faster than you. There will always be someone millions of years ahead of you.

Anyone who followed OP's advice would sooner or later end up mildly annoying a 500 million year old space empire and being subjected to tortures that our feeble minds cannot even conceive of.

>>55118347
Say the threat moves at .8c. You spot it 2 lightyears out. That means you have almost 150 days to react - plenty of time to deploy countermeasures, especially if you already have a plan.

>>55118894
THAT is why you wait for a firing solution! Etc.

>>55119149
How would a firing solution even be calculated? Any information your sensors pick up will be out of date.

>>55118347
>the problem with things going at nearly the speed of light is that they're hard to see coming
Fortunately 40K has FTL detection, because it has FTL communication.

You get psykers to tell each other AAAAA THERE IS AN ASTEROID COMING AAAA MY EYES ARE BOILING OUT OF MY SKULL AAAA

And then the guy on the other side says AAAAA WHICH WAY IS THE ASTEROID COMING FROM AAAAA THOUSANDS OF ANTS CRAWL WITHIN MY SKULL AAAAA

And then the first psyker tells them with lots of screaming.

The mechanicus shits out a defense from the forge world, or they send off a ship to intercept it with a few rocks of their own, and the world survives another day.

>>55119211
>How would a firing solution even be calculated? Any information your sensors pick up will be out of date.
Most things in space big enough to affect your targeting solution will have nice predictable paths or orbits, so even if it's out of date, your targeting solution should be accurate unless someone boosts a small planetoid near the path.

Like, if they fire a RKK back at you.

>>55119247
See you say this like its easy to solve for all bodies at once, assumeing you can magically know the postion and velocity of every body, even the ones you cant see (becuae they are small, or non-reflective)

>>55118125
Isn't the EM drive the one that needs its velocity measured by the most sensitive measuring devices ever built just to come to the conclusion of "It might be moving"?

>>55119311
And then, assuming that you fire it from the closest solar system calculating every movement of those bodies for the next 5 years.

Let's not forget that "relativistic" doesn't mean "teleportation", it just means "approaching light speed", which means an average shot might still take thousands of years travel time. Imagine computing the movement of stellar bodies for a shot over thousands of years.

It's just way, WAY more reliable to just lose half your troops flying through the warp and then shoot them dead.

>>55119311
wouldn't it be easier to stick steering rockets on the thing to correct its own course?

>>55118894
>>55118753
>>55118711

We have rifle bullets that adjust the trajectory to hit the target accurately even if it moves. But that would be too high tech for a civilization capable of traveling the stars, right?

The thing is, as technology evolves and weapons grow crazier and crazier, a civilization have to work out some way of consistently avoiding large-scale violent conflicts or it would self destruct sooner or later.

>>55119470
>>55119477
Changing course would be pretty much impossible after a certain speed has been reached. I think one could even make a solid case for sensory perception also being impossible from the position of the projectile.

>>55119595
PS: Of course you can hand wave this and go FUTURE TECH, but why then introduce a term like "relativistic speed" in the first place? Why not ask: "Why don't they build a big cannon that can kill everyone?"

>>55117585
If only we could use as a bullet something that already moves at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. Like, for example, light.
Planetbusting laser weapons, not solid projectiles, will bring the galaxy into the coldest war ever.

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>>55119654
Or PURE IMMATERIUM

>>55116936
I want to fuck that mage

Because the image in the OP is written under the assumption that technological advancement is limited and we, at the twenty first century, have mostly found out everything there is to know about the universe. Moving things from system to system is bother enough, keeping them alive in the process is basically not possible.

40k is grimdark, but not that grimdark.

>>55118125
But why the fuck! We're going to Alpha Centauri anyway and we're not going to NOT bring the nukes because why the fuck would we leave the nukes behind? Might as well bring more nukes to kill the fucking fungus with and colonise the place instead of a ridiculous asteroid.
Humanity commits genocide for expansion, not as a short-term survival strategy.

>>55118089
Sounds about right.

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>>55116903
Some of them try to:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_cannon

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy#Older_and_obsolete_classes

Whoever is interested in a better discussion of OP's image, check here:
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunexotic.php#id--Relativistic_Weapons
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/planetaryattack.php#id--Orbital_Bombardment--Relativistic_attack
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/apocalypse.php
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/aliens.php#id--Alien_Contact

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>>55116903
I detect atleast one circular argument fallacy and one thin end of the wedge fallacy in that image post.

Also, i question if its even possible to build a relativistic cannon. I mean, its obviously beyond our technology now. Whos to say its a certainty?

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>>55119901

>>55119852
Oh and inb4 nuclear fallout, H-bombs are super clean if they don't use a significant fission payload. See: Tzar Bomba test.

>>55119910
Neat, they're just going to shoot a giant molten ball of copper at it. That sounds both hilariously effective, and humiliating. The only problem will be aiming that bitch.

>>55117585
> Relativistic projectile
> 1 ton

Why so heavy?

>>55119998
Am EFP is no joke, and one of the most devastating battlefield weapons you can make in your garage with just a little bit of supplies and know how. They'll punch through an MRAP designed to stop multiple RPG strikes and massive IEDs like a knife through butter.

>>55119654
diffraction

>>55119910
On thing I don't understand is the assertion that the force of the nuclear blast / water vaporisation all goes behind the copper disk. There's a lot of power that should be lost into the earth as a result of forming whatever crater is left after the explosion. How much water/how big a hole are we talking about for an H-Bomb, exactly?

>>55119477
Which really ups the complexity from sending a simple lump of rock/metal.

It would require you to put a sensor package on the RKV that can detect the target planet and tell it apart from the other planets in the target system.

You'd need to have the sensors durable enough that they stay functioning after the RKV hits a spec of interstellar dust.

You'd need a computer system that reacts fast enough even with relativistic time dilation.

You'd need to stick thrusters on the RKV. You need to fuel them.

>>55119910
So you've got the cannon.

Can you aim it ?

>>55120366
>You'd need to stick thrusters on the RKV. You need to fuel them.
Also, I might be wrong, but wouldn't having a thruster on an object moving at relativistic speeds cause an awful lot of sheer stress?

>>55120062

You need to be able to punch through a planets atmosphere and hit something that matters.

If you take a grain of sand and throw it at Earth at lightspeed, it will run into some very sparse gas at the outer edge of Earths atmosphere and immediately vaporize itself in an explosion more powerful than you can imagine... in a near vacuum at such a distance that no one will ever notice anything beyond a bright flash in the night sky.

This is the unspoken peoblem with most RKVs: you are not hitting the planet. You are hitting the gas around the planet. In most cases the initial explosion will either destroy your projectile instantly, or deflect it so it 'skips' off the edge of our atmosphere like a stone.

To penetrate the atmosphere enough to be a planet killer, you need to hit the planet dead on the minimize deflection, and have a fuckton of mass to burn on the initial contact annihilation and still have enough momentum to keep going. That much mass dramatically ups the cost of getting the RKV up to speed in the first place, and makes course corrections all but impossible.

>>55120304
That's why you reinforce the sides with a lot of concrete. Nuclear weapons don't leave that big of a crater anyway.

>>55120838
Yeah, because you normally detonate them above the surface to let the shockwave spread! If you just dig a hole down and bury the bomb it's gonna leave a crater. Also, reinforcing the sides with concrete just means the power will go into breaking the fucking concrete, not that it'll somehow magically get focused into the disk. You'd need something strong enough to take a point-blank H-bomb blast and have no deformity. What are you using for that, slade or adamantite?

>>55116903

Don't they use the Warp for travel? I mean, that's just ducking in and out of the Immaterium to move across realspace, rather than actually travelling faster than light or close to relativistic speeds.

Not sure anyone moves at those speeds, and if they did it would probably the Necrons, Tau, or some tech the AdMech have stored away, but after that no one is probably willing to expend that much effort on it.

I suppose the AdMech might have some technology to cancel out inertia to help the process along, but they're going to consider it far too precious to use up on a kinetic kill missile when conventional cyclonic dtorpedo bombardment works just as well.

>>55118949
Austrian Deathmachine? Can't look at the video.
Wasn't their singer imprisoned for planning to murder his wife, then grew massive tits in prison because he was abusing steroids, so he ended uo trying to sue the government for steroids/money? Or do I think of someone else?

>>55116903
Yeah relativistic kill vehicles ruined all sci-fi for me.
Same with artificial intelligence and robots, anything tied to robots is ruined since meatbags have always not merely a remote chance of survival, but are garanteed to win against what is a God to a god.

>>55117585
The point is to target planets.
You know, the very big things with predictable trajectories that are vital to filthy meatbags that can't survive in interstellar space.

>>55120905
Necrons did have inertialess drives for ftl, but it was retconned into them using the webway. Which is a whole other level of dumb.

>>55120887

Anon, it's a gun.
Normally, we make the barrel of our gun out of steel and make it thick enough to handle the amount of energy the round dumps into it on the way out.

Same principle applies here. You know how hard the bomb will hit, so you know how much and what kind of concrete you need to make the barrel of this gun. The reverse also applies - you know how big of a bomb you are allowed to use to propell your bullet.

This version uses a copper bullet and a concrete barrel, but the more famous version - the castaba howitzer uses a tungsten bullet and I don't remember what the barrel is.

>>55121048
Didn't they got that thing back?

>>55121103
I can only hope so, the webway thing seems like a stupid way for them to travel. Them invading the webway, fine, but alwaxs using it for travel? That's stupid. But I guess inertialess superdrives that can zip around the galaxy within moments would be a bit too OP.

>>55120992
>the very big things
Planets are tiny in interstellar terms. Another anon calculated that to hit an earth sized target that's in alpha centauri, you'd need to get your cannon aimed within 1.77*10^-8 degrees of being aimed exactly at the target.
That's 0.0000000177 degrees. How do you plan to aim your 20AU long cannon that accurately ?

Oh and this is assuming you've managed to exactly measure the location and velocity of the planet, and anything else that would affect it's orbit. Which you won't be able to do. Any means of taking measurements has a margin of error. Any margin of error introduces an unpredictability that will be compounded by your calculations to predict where the planet will be.

>>55121073
Well the inverse of the argument is true. A gun can only be as powerful as its structural integrity allows, and there are very definitive limits to what sort of materials can completely reflect the power of a nuclear blast. ESPECIALLY underground where the "barrel" comes in contact with earth that can absorb a significant amount of the power.

>>55121702
That is exactly what I am saying an you still get very high velocities.
You are either not understanding what the point of it is or severely undersetimating the amount of force a concrete hole can handle.

>>55121811
I'm just sceptical because if all it took to shrugg off nuclear blasts was concrete we could just build a wall around the U.S. high enough for the NK missiles to not go over and then make Chine pay for it, and we'd never have to worry about illegal nuclear blast immigration again.

>>55121935
That's so plausible I can't believe it!

Because planet killing in 40k isn't a big deal as it is. Cyclonic Torpedoes, Virus Bombs, Phosphex Missiles, simple orbital bombardment...You can take your pick for how the Imperium can destroy worlds.

>>55120992
>tfw you love RKV threads because this stupid idea gets ripped apart pretty much every time.

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Why not just shower the enemy solar system in concentrated waves of gamma bursts? No precision targeting required, already traveling at C, spells death to everything.

>>55118407
>extend from the Earth to Uranus.
there's a joke here somewhere

>>55119106
>Alltomorrows.jpg

>>55121935
>we could just build a wall around the U.S. high enough for the NK missiles to not go over

Anon. You can't build a wall that high.

>>55122500
somebody tweet this to Trump; I bet he's up for a challenge

>>55122500
>implying The Don can't build an invisible, solar-powered aluminium-concrete wall
THE WALL just got a mile taller, sad low-energy Kim will never get past the BEST WALL. SAD!

>>55119477
Which means that, from a civilizations standpoint, there is really only one good defense- spread out. Defense system are great, but as every culture in world history has learned the hard way, technology evolves rapidly and someone WILL make a weapon to beat your defense. So you need to spread out, build hundreds, thousands even millions of independently sustainable colonies to ensure the survival of the species. If you can't stop a weapon, just make its damage proportionally less devastating.

And if that isn't fucking grimdark, I don't know what is.

>>55122960
how is an existential obligation to your species to have as much sex as biologically possible, grimdark? DUTY CALLS FILL THOSE HOLES

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>>55117714
>>55117741
That screencap is lifted word for word from the book The Killing Star, which is about aliens destroying human civilization with relativistic missiles. This particular part of the book is delivered by the author's self insert character.
It's a fun read and well written, but it's by no means hard sci-fi. At some point in the book the sun is blown up using anti-energy bombs, and there's a space colony lead by Jesus and Budha clones.

>>55116903
>Imperium
Relati-what? That sounds like heresy to me. You're not a heretic, are you?

>Chaos
*Insane laughter*

>Orkz
Wutz da point've bomb'n gitz when dey'r so far off ya can't see da lookz on dere faces? Now, gettin' right up in 'em wiv a good choppa, dats da way ta do it!

>Eldar
Tch, hardly subtle, is it?

>Tau
Attacking aliens without a formal declaration of war would be a violation of our rules of war.

>Necrons
Sorry, what? Relativistic bombs? You apes are still using relativistic bombs?

>Dark Eldar
*Higher-pitched insane laughter*

>>55123276
except that the Imperium already uses relativistic weapons, its called a Nova Cannon

Tau would also likely make use of it if they could given their preference for ranged warfare

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>>55119106
OP's screencap basically sets from the get go that the aliens are pissed no matter what and any technological development is futile, so... yeah. I'm gonna call you both cowards and do my thing, because it's better to burn out than to fade away.

>>55121702
>>55121811
there's no need for a gun to get a projectile to reach relativistic speed.
There's almost no friction in space, so it will constantly accelerate, although not at a constant rate, as long as there's some kind of propulsion system it'll eventually reach relativistic speed.
Even your old lightbulb shooting light out of the rocket's ass will eventually get there, it will just take a long ass time.
But if you're shooting at a civilizatio light years away you can take the time.

>>55119312
Oh it's so much worse than that. IF it is producing thrust, it's smaller than the atomic thermal margin of error of the equipment used to measure it. It's not 'it might be moving'. It's actually 'it's 99.999% likely to not exist' according to the experiment that supposedly proved it.

>>55123666
The nuke propelled projectile is supposed to shoot spaceships on/around your planet.

What you are talking about is a self propelled missile of some sort that has multiple months or years to accelerate up to the desired velocity.

The issue here is that either way, the projectile is just the means of delivering a large enough amount of energy to the target and if you want to actually make a blast big enough to cause serious damage, you are going to need a seriously powerful fuel source. Even if you have a source of thrust that consumes no propellant, you need energy from somewhere. The obvious source is the sun, which isn't going to generate thrust very quickly and the target will have forever and ever to respond to your attempt.

>>55120304
It's basically a standard nuclear bunker, but way smaller and way simpler.

>>55120550
No

>>55121073
Yeah, and the Casaba Howitzer is the size of a coffee table.

>>55121935
What a fucking moron...

Dude, nuclear bunkers that protect you from nuclear blasts mainly just use concrete. Underground nuke tests are shielded with pretty much just concrete.

Doming an entire continent is infeasible because you can't put a dome over an entire continent. That is why they didn't fucking wall off the country during the cold war. Not because concrete doesn't work, but because to stop a missile that flies through space you'd need to dome the entire nation.

>>55124151
>the target will have forever and ever to respond to your attempt.
that is s still the other part of the equation.
They need to detect the threat. And a building sized rocket that could come from any direction and you will be able to detect only months after it has passed that spot at best is not an easy thing to see and react to.
In general. in scifi settings they mighthave methods to detect it

>>55120962
Nope, that's exactly the band.

Also Rusty Cooley from Outworld, and everything he touches is solid gold.

>>55124359
I think/hope he was being facetious.

>>55122239
>joke
I don't see what's funny about a large metal barrel going into Uranus.

>>55123183
Sounds pretty fun.

>>55121146

Considering they are temporally immortal (since they aren't biologically immortal, because they're not biological), it seems like they can wait it out. Moving a fraction of the speed of light when you don't age is fine, and moving around at such a speed for hundreds if not thousands of years in setting time is enough to get to different start systems.

>>55121935

I can't tell if you're seriously suggesting that a concrete wall thick enough to absorb a nuclear missile that stretches into motherfucking space would be a practical defense.

>>55118247
If you've mastered teleportation you can set up a constant flow system, minimising the volume and weight that the engines need to lug around...

>>55120304
Path of least resistance, same principle as applies in firearms, with the majority of the force " taking the easy way out" by shoving the projectile along the barrel