I'd like to discuss combat and theater of the mind compared

>>55110974
be prepared to at least sketch out a layout if the players start to ask really specific distances and positions, so everyone is on the same page

>>55111013
I suppose I could use reference maps. But part of theater of the mind is not playing FF tactics. Namely, I'll frankly tell players if they could close the distance, hit the target from that range, etc.

Also giving them knowledge of enemy spacing.

"You know you can get within striking distance to the group of two goblins on your turn, however, their three compatriots may choose to surround you." etc.

Any system that promotes abilities having very specific distances and where positioning is important is going to draw people toward mini play, and since most people play some variant of D&D that's why you've seen more of that play.

>>55110974
>>55111066
Well, if you want to play a game wich combat is focused on tactics, wich distances and areas are defined in 5 foot increments, and is important to know where is everyone located in relation to eachother, then a visual aid is almost a requierement.
Also what the fuck is theater of the mind? Is it more than not using a grid? Why not call it that then?
Mybe you should try 13th age. it sounds more like what you are trying to do.
Else your players are gonna get tired of your hand-wavy bullshit

>>55111426
No doubt why people gravitate toward mini play. What I think is that the storytelling actually suffers for it. The minis suck me out of the experience.

Additionally, there's the question of prep. To create the settings that would look halfway acceptable you have to spend a lot of time prepping your maps and minis.

>>55111487
Theater of the mind is a pretty well understood roleplaying term, anon.

I hear your point and absolutely you *could* play it as a tactical game within a narrative context. I don't think it's handwaving to be able to visualize where players are, explain explicitly where they are if necessary and move forward.

I think grid play actually separates the cooperative storytelling you get in roleplaying. Instead of asking the players what they want to do, explaining what they see, and moving from there, the grid sort of removes that process. It takes the player out of the shared imagination and turns a roleplaying game into FF-tactics.

I think it makes for poorer roleplaying.

And there's no less in terms of tactics. Actually, by getting the players to think more about the scene and setting and less about the number of grids they can move, I'd hypothesize they'll come up with more creative strategies. Besides, it's not difficult if they want explicit distances to say, "They're fifteen feet away".

>>55110974

I like having maps and minis, but I find I don't particularly like grids. They're generally inexact in things that matter and needlessly precise in things that don't.

To that end, I've been playing around with an idea for a system in which the space is rather divided into several abstract "zones" similar to the way old infocom text adventures subdivide space. Zones can be contained within one another, have asymmetric relationships (a catwalk that can be jumped down from but not clambered back up, for example), and are generally more abstract/freeform than grids. The key is, from a mathematical perspective, not to think of it as a cartesian coordinate space but rather a network.

There are no hard and fast rules for how big a zone is, but people sharing a medium zone are assumed to be able to converse more or less easily without siginificantly raising their voices. Each creature also has a "personal zone" extending around themselves, which must first be entered to attack with non-reach weapons. Note to zones can be abstract - both an an elevator and a small wall could be considered zones in and of themselves due to the fact that they slow passage between other zones. By the same logic, a large zone may simply be a medium zone with rough terrain. What matters isn't the actual physical distance, but the time cost associated from transitioning from one section of the map to another.

I prefer theater of the mind, because it requires less prep, and encourages creating combat encounters for their own sake less (after all, if you go to the effort of making a map, it would be a shame to not use it).

>>55110974
grids and stuff really destroys fantasy and immersion for the players.

theater of mind is the best you can do if you got some players who can play thing's out in their mind. If you got low attention span action kiddies, go for a grid.

also; be ready to make a simple sketch of a room/fight if they are really specific

>>55110974
Depends on the setting.

Fantasy? Grid.
Sci-fi? Grid
Super Hero? Theatre of the mind.
Mech? I don't know, never played it.

Why? Because super hero is very anime and playing on a grid was very obtuse to me. Much better to just ignore the whole distance shit and go full anime.

>>55114385
>Sci-fi? Grid

gotta disagree here. Grids are much less useful when everyone and their cyborg grandma have guns.

>>55111487
>Else your players are gonna get tired of your hand-wavy bullshit
If they're playing an RPG with a GM then there's not really any way to add more hand-waving (or is it -waiving?)

Anyways, you already have them directing and adjudicating the application of every rule as well as any conceivable outcome. The whole point of the GM is that they're an engine for arbitrary and unexpected developments. Relying on verbal communication a wee bit more isn't going to hurt anything.

>>55110974
Theatre of the mind means combat becomes even more of a dice rolling expirience for martials. Distances and attacks of opportunities are the only descisions martials actually get to make in non 4e dnd, dont take that away from them

>>55110974
I primarily use grids, though theater of the mind also comes into use if a grid really isn't needed (such as pulling out a gun and shooting a guy in his office, or bashing another guy head-on in a gladiator battle, or a chase scene where the area covered is too large to practically use a grid)

>>55110974
FATE was here. You can have both by using zones.

>>55110974
Read books or scripts that have some interesting combat, take note of how you do that with language.
Don't worry about everything being 100% exact 100% of the time--that is, don't describe a scene by just treating it as if it's on a grid and you're dictating the geometry of it. That just leaves your group with the worst vestiges of grid combat and verbal combat. Just make sure everybody's got the gist of it without burning too much time being overly thorough.
It's not a JRPG, you don't need to simply prompt them for who to attack and you don't want combat to feel like that's all it is.
If there are multiple distinct points of the same type of enemy, or object or specific point that will be relevant, make sure each has an immediately different description that you stick to and that you don't let all details just bleed together.
If there's one big cluster, especially of the same type, treat them almost like a horde of enemies or a single larger creature with parts that can die off.
Work with the players. Treat it a bit like you would a noncombat scene, just with attacks being made, etc. Including occasional bits of dialog with players about what they want to do and how they can accomplish it.

>>55115577
>Distances and attacks of opportunities are the only descisions martials actually get to make in non 4e dnd, dont take that away from them
Why would TotM get rid of either of those?

>>55114385
>Mech? I don't know, never played it.
Hex grid.

>>55110974
Really depends on the combat system. ToM is nice if the general rule on the table is: You are always in range to hit a target.

As soon as distent is something which needs to be tracked in any way, shape or form, the grid becomes the preffered method.

>>55110974
For D&D there will always be a grid, whether every player has to imagine it separately and you correct their imaginations, or you have an actual physical grid to show. For this, I think as long as you have the space and setup for a physical grid, it is just better in most ways. There are games that are like D&D but don't require grids of course, making ranges and AoEs more vague like 13th Age and Dungeon World for example.