Reminder that there is literally nothing wrong with playing as

Something something something, subjective morality dillemia.

Always remember to masturbate before making a thread, yadda yadda

>>55071882
They're honestly a punch on sight class for me.

I will fuck over anyone who plays them.

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>>55071882
> be me, friendly psychic
> a bit lonely, pray to lathander for companionship
> meet sexy angry barbarian
> help him with his anger
> he pledges to protect me with his life
> never alone again

>>55071882
Technically speaking, there really isn't anything wrong with it. At least in 3.5. The class itself doesn't do anything a good enough bard can't anyways, its just fluffed as psionic BS rather than magic jazzhands.

>>55072023
CHA vs. INT based matchmaking.

>>55071971
Fabio is redpilled as fuck

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>>55071934
>completely LG by the books thrallherd
>credit to team and helps defeat the BBEG
>restores the lands to peace
>still deserves to get fucked over

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>>55072059
The difference is still basically just fluff

>>55072116
Actually no, i take this back.

There is one major difference between 10 levels of thrallherd and a level 6 feat, and thats that you can get one additional cohort.

The other shit is all pretty weak, to be honest. Two psionic powers you might already have, and some power point management.

Frankly, its not all that great.

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>>55072116
Fluff is the defining factor of RPGs my dude! I guess this is something we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.

>>55072166
While i agree the fluff is morally ambiguous, your wizard and bard are more capable of the same thing, and are just as likely to act on it.

>>55072179
Yeah, but ones going to do it pelvic magic and a force of confidence worthy of Adonis, and the other is going to worm their way into your every waking thought , into your dreams, and into your heart. Its different in the execution!

>>55072108
>implying I would ever let the story progress that far with some faggot fetishist in my group

>>55072211
Except not really.

Thats basically exactly how bard charisma works. Or magic, for that matter.

Seriously, its almost entirely the same thing. The only difference being that one does it by thinking and the other uses a spell to do so. Or really good music.

In execution, there's no difference, especially to the other party.

>>55072261

There is a difference in the roleplay. There is a difference in the story being created by the group. Mechanically they may both net you a companion, but it isn't all just about math and dice rolls.

>>55072261
my dude, you need more romance in your soul. If everything is just dice rolls and mechanical advantages then I'd agree with you. But its not. Its about people getting together and having conflicts and making love and being friends. Sometimes you just need to embrace the fluff.

>>55072285
>>55072324
I'm not even talking about the dice rolls though.

Technically, any psionic can get the same abilities, not just thrallherd. Any bard can roleplay like a god and get his companion. Any wizard can use his magic in exactly the same way, especially if they grab leadership. In fact, with "Good roleplay" a wizard can have a thrall just as loyal as any thrallherd.

Forgetting the rolls entirely and assuming sheer roleplay, THEY ALL AMOUNT TO THE SAME DAMN THING.

>>55072339
So, I think I see what your saying, but I also disagree. What I hear from you is that the destination is what matters, and is more important then the journey. And thats what I disagree with. I think the journey is the fun part.

>>55072339

Except they don't? If you think that the roleplay for a bard talking people into working for him, a wizard using a spell to get people to work for him, and a thrallherd going into their head to get people to work for him are all exactly the same I think you might be somewhat daft. Because by sheer roleplay they really are quite different, and I can't understand how it is possible for you not to understand that. Unless you are being deliberately obtuse in you're defense of the thrall herd, or you have never actually played a game and wouldn't know roleplay if it bit you in the ass.

>>55072390
Don't argue with retarded clichés.

>>55072390
Let me put it this way.

Leadership is essentially basic thrallherd. Thrallherd is mildly adjusted but the same overall thing.

Many magics let you directly alter the mental state of the opposing force, usually someone you want to ally with yourself.

Through use of magic and leadership feat, you are essentially the exact same thing as a thrallherd using mental abilities to accomplish the same thing.

And bards get most of these spells. So even before they have done any sort of performing or barding, they are already on the exact same level as a basic ass thrallherd.

>>55072433
let me think about this. No.

>>55072448
I see what your getting at, and from a mechanical perspective your right. The thrall herd class offers very little substantial features that you cant get elsewhere. But the thrallherd positions you in a singular place roleplaying wise right off the bat that other classes have to work towards.

>>55072525
From a level perspective, both bard and thrallherd start at the same point, level 6.

Since thrallherd is a psionic PrC, it means that it can't be taken off the bat. Its a choice to be made, just as much as the bard taking leadership and using magic to accomplish the same thing.

The biggest difference i see is that thrallherds from a roleplay perspective can only enthrall people they "Resonate" with. Bards can do it to anyone with enough magic and effort.

>>55072587
I guess the difference that im seeing is that the character who would go and spend time becoming a thrall heard is different from a bard who's learned over time how to lead people. Even if that bard uses magic to "convince" people to help them.

To me its like a person who was born a sorcerer and developed that power is different from a wizard who learned magic through hard study. They can do the same things, but how they got that power informs their character.

>>55072640
>>55072587
Regardless of where the ability came from, both types still made the choice to take it.

I would say bards are still worse because a thrallherds ability is basically passive, and they don't actively control it. They just take whoever comes to them, which means the other party either actively accepted the call, or weren't strong enough of will to resist it.

The bard has to make the choice to fuck someone up like this, each and every time, and they can try, again. And again. And again. Until the other guy would happily suck the bards cock for no better reason than the bard said it was a good idea.

At the end of the day, Sheer charisma can be far more terrifying than any mental invitation.

>>55072683
this mostly just comes off as you bending over backwards in an attempt to justify your mind control fetish.

>>55072814
I dont think thats what they're doing. I think they're pointing out the meaninglessness of the class.

>>55072814
If i was gonna do that, i wouldn't be here. I'd be on /d/ or something, actively revelling in it.

Either way, you realize that with a high enough diplo roll, a bard can turn someone into a fanatic for him right? Literally give their lives? sure, it takes a roll of 50 when they are already helpful,, but thats actually pretty manageable for a bard. If anyone isn't helpful, enough magic and diplo rolls can fix that too.

>>55072843
More the meaningless as labeling them as outright evil or something like that. Bards get away with much the same thing on nothing but pure charisma, after all.

The original question is "Whats wrong with thrallherd" and my stance is basically "Nothing that isn't already fucked up with a bard, wizard, or sorcerer"

>>55072888
>More the meaningless as labeling them as outright evil

ahh, ok! I get you. Im sorry, I thought you were talking about mechanics the whole time. I agree with you, I think Lawful Good thrallheards are a pinnacle example of reverse expectations.

Sure, you can play Thrallherd in my setting
But you're going to pull the absolutely most obtuse thrall possible, whose safety is more paramount than your own, and whose wards understand who and what you are and the nature of your relationship with the thrall
And if you do anything to alleviate this, or basically just anything I don't like in the game, I'm going to throw your ass out of my house for being a fetish faggot

>>55072951
Way to be a That Guy GM.

I bet you hate bards too.

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>>55072951
Sure is great not playing with That GM

>>55072231
You don't have a group at all.

>>55072976
>>55072994
>That Guy playing the fetish ERP class accuses the DM of being That Guy for even giving him the opportunity to try and create an interesting narrative with his shitty fetish class
No, you see, when you tell me you want to play something that 98% of the time is shitty erotic fantasy, the only reason I would let you do so is if you think you can be that 2% that manages to create an interesting narrative by, say, addressing the fucked up nature of being a Thrallherd, or getting into interesting RP that enriches the story for the other players.
So when you DO play that class that is 98% erotic fetish role playing, and then you proceed to be an erotic fetish role player, I'll tell you to get the fuck out for making the game shittier for everyone else playing.

I have been summoned.

How's it going?

>>55073038
Whatever helps you sleep at night, anon

What if I just do all my masturbating away from the table and play it pretty straight when I'm there?

Just a psion with a loyal follower.

No IC or OOC sign of it being a fetish, actively coaches the thrall not to act like a slave in public.

All the while still furiously masturbating to the whole thing.

>>55073019
I don't have a group that would play 3.PF, true.

We play M&M, Savage Worlds, and Burning Wheel instead.

What's inherently fetishistic about the Thrallherd? I was always under the impression that it was just another cool psychic archetype.

>>55073295
Fetish aside, I agree.

>>55073295

Some people have a mind control fetish. Therefore any form of mind control is someone indulging their fetish.

>>55073295
Nothing, it just facilitates retards who can't keep their shit in their pants more easily than most classes as mind controllers are want to do.

>>55073295
While you are correct about it basically just being another archetype, its easily fetishised by the fact that it creates an absolutely loyal thrall that obeys literally anything.

Obviously this opens up routes for lewd shit, making it less "inherently" and more "easily" fetishised.

>>55072285
>There is a difference in the roleplay.
Somebody hasn't read enough Myths.
Come back once you find more people bound by music.

>>55073038
Really? Because what it sounds like is that you're going to do your best to make sure that whoever is in that 2% will walk out and stop playing with you.

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>>55071882
Consider the following:

There is tyranid-style hivemind (if you want another example, think of geth platforms from Mass Effect).
And then there is Zerg Queen-style hivemind (Kerrigan).

Thrallherd class is the latter type, and that's why it's shit.

It subverts the will of the communion to a single individual, and that's why it's shit.
A proper hivemind isn't controlled by an elected (or self-elected) leader, it's controlled by EVERY mind in the hivemind.

Think of Omar Technosect. There is no Omar "leader", there is just Omar.
Think of Geth. There is no single "leader" Geth platform, there are just Geth. The only way for Geth to go renegade is if there are more dissenting minds residing in a particular platform than there are conservative minds.

Thrallherd isn't about unity. Thrallherd is about control.
And that's why it's inherently shit.

>>55071882
>played a thrallherd who oopsed into it
>treated their thralls with respect and made sure they were safe
>worst thing they did in the evil campaign was sell their lead thrall to a succubus in exchange for a piece of the macguffin.

>>55073295
The OP picture is made by a guy who draws hypnosis porn.

>>55074203
When did thrallherd ever advertise itself to be about unity?

>>55074203
>thrallherd
And then the Geths choose to follow the leadership of the reapers/shepard

>>55071971
STAR PLATINUM

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>>55074820
Well, most thrallherd players justify being thrallherds with "But I'm treating my thralls real good!" and"I care about my thrallherds as much as I care about myself!", which is pretty much the whole idea of the whole "unity" concept - one for all and all for one and all that jazz.
I'm just saying, relying on a single person's benevolence for the whole system not to go wrong is kinda stupid.
A powerful hero is just one personal tragedy away from being a powerful villain.

>>55071928
spbp

>>55074957
To be fair, That still isn't advertising unity. Thats justifying your position over them.

There is a difference. And while i agree that it only takes one thing happening to turn someone from hero to villain, thats possible of literally anyone. A thrallherd shouldn't be any more accountable for that possibility than a wizard would be.

>>55074203
Except Thrallherd isn't a hivemind at all.

>>55073384
This standard is going to eliminate most of human interaction.

>>55075181
Wizard is merely a powerful individual who is accountable solely for his own actions.
Thrallherd has control over his thralls, and thus he is accountable for the actions of his subjects.

When the former turns into a villain, he is merely being a shitty person.
When the latter turns into a villain, he forces others to be shitty people too.

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>>55071882
Reminder that those who adulterate or destroy the autonomy of people deserve nothing but zealous persecution.

>>55071882
Just make sure you're not enthralling fellow PCs. Unless the player gives you OOC permission,

>>55071882
that artist has some strange sensibilities

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>Be a talented Wilder.
>Mostly contribute to the party as a kind of highly defensive mobile cannon.
>Work that Charisma in party face sitations when the Bard is busy getting busy or otherwise can't be bothered to help out.
>Get to the point where I can pick out powers to really start blasting things.

>Slowly realize that I have a stalker who won't stop giving me nice things.
>Sort of okay with it as long as they stay out of-
>They start making friends with party members.
>Oh God What.
>They travel with us, pretty good sneaky thief, great at peeling enemies off our back line if they get close.
>Still Concerned with how much attention they pay to me.
>Keeps giving me nice things, in excess of price we can afford from our cut of the loot.
>Ask how they're paying for it.
>"Oh the fan-club works to set aside a percentage of their income."
>"Fan club?"
>"Your's!"
>OH GOD NO
>Run away from the party briefly.
>Get tracked down.
>Realize that there have been less direct, less skilled stalkers along the way, around every corner.
>Where are they all coming from Oh god Why?
>Party laughs it off, doesn't understand.
>Neither do I but I am so done.
>Try to reinvent myself, now fifth-circle powers.
>New persona is famous within three weeks of public reward for taking out Cerebrelith.
>Fan-clubs uniting around conspiracy theory that I am actually Me.
>No escape.
>Just try to ignore it to the best of my ability.
>Pretty sure the numbers are still growing though, gifts keep getting pricier.

>>55071882
Fun class indeed, once had a Psion that got tricked into taking levels by duergar. Wound up with a drow oracle thrall and lots of followers he thought were just coming to him for advice.

>>55072108
>Destroying a sapient being's free will
>Ever good

>>55079849
In D&D it's a neutral ability in basically all it's forms.

>>55079849
>Destroying a sapient being's free will with hammers to the face
>Ever good

>>55079849
There's no conscious decision to use the thrall power, it's just a psychic aura that brings people looking for someone to serve to pledge their allegiance to you.

Or to think you're the reason their oracle powers showed up.
Or even dislike you but they're somewhat obsessed and keep doing as you ask to "show you" by doing it better than they think you could. You clearly need their help after all and they want to prove it.

>>55079849
More like.
>Puppeteering corpses in a sick mockery of their former life
>Ever good

>>55079892
Killing respects an opponent's will, because it is preserved intact in death. Rewriting it attacks them on a deeper level. /military and premodern western ethics 101

>>55079945
>Guys, you all said my musical number idea was stupid.
>Right.
>So why is this minotaur helping set up an actual stage with automated props and everything?
>Yer a thrallherd, Harry.
>A what?

>>55080021
Kill an unwilling opponent is the ultimate negation of their will. By condemning them to an unwanted death, you've ending not only their willful opposition against you in the present, but also their ability to exert any other willful act as a living, thinking being in the future. You've gone far beyond merely subjugating their will for a time, into snuffing out the very possibility of rebellion.

>>55080100
That's pretty much how it went for me. NG thrallherd, no idea he was influencing people. Ended up just trying to give life advice to his followers while a NE drow girl ended up his thrall, convinced he was her ticket to power on the surface.

>>55071882
I don't dislike them on a moral or ethical level. Hell, mad scientists that laugh at the word, "ethics," are my jam.
I dislike them due to purely selfish pragmatism.

See, if someone can make others do what they want, and these others have no way to detect these intrusions, that's somewhat threatening. If they can control how they do this, then it's only marginally more threatening than a man with a sword. It's only a tool, at that point, and one that's wielded in a way that you can predict. It's not hard to trust a trained professional, so long as he isn't threatening you. Scale this up or down based on how many people they can effect. It doesn't matter, the principle is the same.

One of the real problems comes when the man wielding the weapon has no control over it. Take >>55079945 for example.
They swing wildly, potentially harming everything and everyone that could be effected by the power that they wield. They can't not threaten me. They can't control what they don't understand, and neither can I.

Well, that's not true. There's always that one little bit of control that we all have, so long as our wits are still our own. Doesn't take much to make a man stop doing things, eh?

>>55080273
Compared to (permanent) reprogramming, killing is slightly less bad. Reprogramming the mind takes away dignity and turns a person into a tool for someone else. Ego death is worse than regular death because one now lacks their ability to even rebel through self-destruction.
Temporary and reversible mind-control is more grey.

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Post the rest.

The flavor and mechanics are cool and all, but its defining class feature is still basically Leadership. Fuck Leadership.

I like mind control.

>>55081652
Yes, my puppet!
Be filled with joy as you for my amusement!
I-I mean, yeah... you're totally entitled to that opinion that I in no way agree with. I don't want you to think that at all, but I definitely can't stop you.

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>>55075369
This is just glossing over the fact that with enough charisma or magic you can do the exact same thing.

Charles manson sure as fuck did it and last i checked his ass wasn't psychic.

What do you think a cult is?

>>55081720
I forgot the word, "dance."
Clearly, this is the work of a wizard. We should kill him.

>>55081325
Wanna know the difference?

With high enough willpower you can tell the thrallherd to fuck off in the early stages.

With an axe to the head, you dead.

What happens to the souls of people forced to do things they otherwise wouldn't under a thrallherd's influence?
Do they change?
Should they change?
Is forcing someone into the setting's CE afterlife by making it enjoy slaughtering your enemies ok?
Is forcing a soul into the LG realms after stealing their ability to truly be righteous, and just making them like doing good deeds while upholding the rule of society a good thing?
What if they were more likely to go to NG or LN, and they weren't even bad?
If they are your enemy, why not simply give them a shortcut to their final justice?

>>55081740
Don't look at me, I don't prepare my spells.

>>55082046
With reflexes or high enough strength to block with something sturdy you can defend against an axe so it doesn't reach the head.

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>>55082243
The fact that you don't have any spells simply means you absolutely must have already cast them all. There is no other possible explanation. NONE! Our God can only imagine what sort of dastardly mischief this vile fiend has been up to, to have left himself in such a vulnerable state. Yet rejoice, my brothers, for his sins have arranged to bring their own justice.
Strike now, men! Kill the heathen while he is weak!

>>55082297
Assuming that the intended effect is already in action, the axe is still the worse option.

On top of this, the axe may maim you in other ways and not just outright kill you.

>>55082370
Spontaneous casters exist, you dork.

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>>55082391
>Spontaneous casters exist, you dork.
Sorry, I thought you were a wizard for a moment there. Get a haircut, you hippy. I'm going to bed.

>>55071882
People stopped complaining when I switched to none-demi-human races. Kobold Thrallherd is just a Kobold nation acting as a character "The Kingdom of Vendros agrees, mighty Storath, but believes we should stipulate 7 million cups of ale as we are thirsty."

Very inhuman ones can just be hiveminds, like bug people.

>>55081739
Man, I totally love being compared to Charles Manson. He and his group of people that were very much responsible for their actions, with the exception of those losers that were physically coerced into joining the fun, really sounded like swell guys. Little Squeaky Manson might not have been all that good with guns, but she was really cute.

>>55082533
3's my favorite.

>>55071882
Fuuuuuuuck that.

I hate letting my player control more than ONE character.

And your suggesting to let some control more than THREE. In fucking D&D?

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK that! Combat is long enough

>>55082579
>>55082579
This

I mean sure, maybe if I'm GMing for like 1-2 people I'd be more inclined to have thrallherds and necromancers and beastmasters and pokemon trainers and what the fuck ever but I got 5 players already, no way is one player getting as many actions as the rest of the party who already take 15 minutes to find their own ass every turn

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>>55082533
I like the one where the will save is successful, but she's just playing along because this is my night to decide what kinky thing we're going to do.

Having taken me on as an apprentice, partner in crime, and fuck buddy, Marisa has taken to having us alternate indulging each other's fetishes every Saturday.
I had just learned a new spell to influence humans, and she dropped hints that she was into that kind of thing, so I try it out on her for "fun," but magicians are harder to influence, and I'm kind of new at this. But no matter, she humors me anyways, or maybe I'm humoring her. She does seem to be having a lot of fun with this role play.

>>55082539
The point stands that charisma in enough quantity and high enough quality is equally as potent as any psychic suggestion.

Its what you do with it that matters.

>>55071882
Nothing really inherently wrong with them on a moral level if you play it straight. The thralls it attracts are specifically people who are subconsciously looking for a purpose to serve anyway.

If anything, you're helping them fulfill their personal goals. Anything beyond that depends on how you treat them and what you use them for. If you spend all day beating them and having them act as footstools then you're probably a huge asshole, if you treat them as loyal followers then you might be a good guy. On the other hand, you could well be treating them as loyal followers and then marauding across the countryside, in which case you're probably an asshole. On the other other hand, the countryside could be the province of Cockburg, where everybody pays their taxes in rape and trades child slaves for drugs and booze, in which case you'd still be a pretty good guy.

There's a lot of factors involved beyond 'Is this mind control', but the key thing to take away from this conversation is that people who play Thrallherds are cancer because their turn inevitably begins with 'uh yeah let me think a sec' while they direct ten billion fucking characters around.

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>>55082736
No, because the CHA magic is an abstraction that happens when a fictional world is run through numbers and dice. You can lie, you can deceive, you can coerce, and you can convince, but in the end you don't change the target's mind. They are given information, and change their own minds based upon it. They are responsible for their own actions, misguided as those actions may be.
If you skip that process, and directly change the decisions for someone else, it's a far more intimate violation.
Their actions are not their own, they are yours.
Their thoughts are not their own. They are yours.
They can not act of their own volition, because they no longer have a true volition.
It doesn't take a rocked vector calculation specialist to figure out why some folks may take offence to that. Specially since if they didn't, it might be because you probably made them not, and they can't really tell. Rather paranoia inducing, yeah?

I don't really take any offence to it, so long as it's directed, and it ain't pointed at me, but I can see why others might get their panties all in a twist about it.
If you want some sort of silly moral high ground, just take away brain privileges of evil people you intend to kill anyways. I do recommend killing them shortly thereafter, though, or you might get accused of slavery. That, and thralldom's long term effects on a souls passing into the afterlife haven't really been rigorously tested.

>>55079849
>Free will
>Ever good

>>55083014
I really wish I had free will...

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>>55083027

>>55082949
Once again, a high enough diplo roll will make people literally give their lives for you.

>>55082230
I think the essence of thrallherd powers is that it only influences people with a predisposition to do the kind of shit that particular thrallherd would have them do anyway. The fact that the thralls come to you imply that to me, anyway.

>>55083068
The anon's point is that they would *choose* to do this, of sound mind and with no brain magic or psychic influence involved.

Makes it all the sweeter in my opinion, but to each their own and all that.

>>55083068
And how you got it was important.

"So, anon, where'd you get that sweet new car?"
>Bought it
>Stole it
>Won it
>Borrowed it

Sure, you could say, "Doesn't matter, I have a sweet car." But you have to admit that how you got something effects how others perceive your ownership of that thing.

I don't know if there is some other point you're trying to make here, and I'm just not getting it or something.

>>55083069
This is the SRD entry for their power:
>They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants.

Basically Thralls are biologically/metaphysically predisposed to respond to Thrallherds. Thrallherds don't choose who comes to them, Thralls exist in the world and are drawn to anyone who gives them that stimulation.

>>55083069
They're certainly willing once they get to you.
But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.
You could ask, but they're not really credible sources anymore.

>>55072059
The thrallherd's ability to attract followers is actually CHA based just like with normal leadership.

>>55072814
Imo it seems you're more the one bending over backwards to justify your opinion that a thrallherd can only ever be fetishistic.

>>55073038
>getting into interesting RP that enriches the story for the other players
>this can only be achieved by actively hampering and fucking with your main ability and core concept
wew kid, I don't think the thrallherd players are the one with a control fetish here.

>>55083110
>>55083115
What is the difference between cult mentality and thrallherd?

Nothing, because cult mentality is caused by purposely taking advantage of weaknesses in the human psyche to condition people to act and think the way you want them to. The only difference is active or passive.

As much as you guys may hate to admit it, there is no actual difference between a cult leader going off sheer charisma and a thrallherd. "Sound body and mind" doesn't matter because these gaps in the mental state that cult leaders take advantage of are present in the majority of people.

>>55080021
>>55080273
>>55081325
>>55082046
Neither of you know fuck-all about thrallherds and are just going off your headcanon, clearly.
Read the actual description, there's no mention rewriting or reprogramming and there's nothing about followers telling thrallherds to fuck off at any stage and regardless of willpower. There's nothing to save against, overpower, or dispell because it's not an enchantment like charm or dominate. The class description is that you send out a psychic signal, basically calling for help, and some people naturally hear that call and choose to answer.

>>55083263
Then why are they called "thrallherds"?! Thralls are by definition slaves! If you are correct, then I think we can both agree that the name is dumb and needs a change that is accurate, or at least "politically correct".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrall

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>>55083161
Naw, cult members are still their own person. They're still responsible for their misguided actions, and they always have the choice to leave or die.
Charisma isn't magic, and while cults can get weird, it isn't mind control. Coercion and manipulation are a separate thing from directly changing a man's thoughts.

Man, I'm getting too high for this. You know what? Go out and chat up some girls at a local beach or something. You need to stop looking at social interaction as some form of magic, yo.

Wait, what? Oh yeah, goodnight /tg/. I love you, so I got you an ass a parting gift. Have a wonderful evening

>>55083293
>why are they warlocks if they don't revolve around breaking oaths?

>>55083300
What is charles manson. Seriously.

He was literally the cult equivalent to a thrallherd.

Unfortunately, the act of interaction is basically about conditioning the other person to a response you think is positive. Marriage is like this. being friends. any sort of interaction, even fighting, can condition a person to specific responses.

A cult leader takes advantage of this to force a person into a specific, and usually very narrow, state of mind. With enough charisma and conditioning, a person can be held to the same standard as what we would call a thrall.

I wish i didn't have to use a mass murderer as an example, but the human condition reacts more viscerally to negative circumstances.

Charisma ain't no magic, but magic is all in the trick anyways.

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>>55083303
>>55083293
Any other inappropriate names in RPGs?

>>55083329
Didn't Charles Manson also use rape witnessed by his members to traumatize his followers one-by-one into submission?

>>55083300
>Naw, cult members are still their own person
So are the followers.
They don't become mindless drones and can still take independent action, the thrallherd doesn't even have any special ability to psychically communicate their wishes to their followers.
>Charisma isn't magic
In d&d it kinda IS with stuff like high enough bluff roles literally able to create a charm effect and charisma-based magic, especially bards that blur the line between magical enchantment and mundane charisma.
It's also worth noting that the thrallherd's signature ability is literally charisma based, just like normal leadership.

Also, nice pathetic "last word" shitpost implying that everyone that disagrees with your opinion about a make believe game must think that real life relationships are like d&d powers, really covered for your shitty argument based on ignorance of the actual game topic.

>>55083369
He did indeed do that. Shock is one of the easiest ways to throw a persons psyche off balance, making it easier to mold from there.

The greater the shock, the greater the imbalance, and the more stable the end result, assuming you have the skill to do so.

One comparison example I saw some anon mention in one of these threads is the player character from kotor 2. Their relationship with the force attacts people and can even lead them to developing force powers too.
Swap the force for psionics and it fits surprisingly well.

>>55083369
>Any other inappropriate names in RPGs?
I feel like there may have been a whole thread of that which got archived.

>>55071882
>Reminder that there is literally nothing wrong with playing as a thrallherd, they're actually a pretty fun class.


If you're playing a high level campaign and your dm is foolish there's nothing wrong. I once ran a thrallherd with a cleric companion with a bunch of feats to let them have a constant selective antimagic sphere enveloping them, so i could still cast with it with my wizard companion and my thrallherd himself.

>tfw you also have leadership so on your turn you act with a whole party

>>55083369
Well, Warlock isn't a good example, yes, it roughly translates to "Oath-Breaker" but in the original usage the "Oath" being broken was between man and (capital "G") God. These were traitors to the christian faith, and indeed mankind, because they had allied with demons. In RPGs, well, DOTS for one, but consider D&D5e as the example.

Warlocks make pacts with otherworldly powers and 2/3 of the options are Evil. The other, the fae, were considered by the church to be demons in disguise.

>>55072683
>Sheer charisma can be far more terrifying than any mental invitation.

I can't help but feel like these posts sound like someone who discovered mind control and has difficulty understanding emotions in a way other than "If experience person talks, the words he says causes a psionic ripple as people's opinions are changed. I'm just swapping talking for thinking and maybe gesturing in a specific way. How are they different?"

>>55073038
>>55072951
>Accidentally develop thrallherd abilities
>It draws a minor noble with good training who has family/retainers checking up frequently.
>Having to acquiesce to the desires of your thrall or risk being found out as a mind controller.

Now that's some good role reversal right there.

>>55084125

>I can't help but feel like these posts sound like someone who discovered mind control and has difficulty understanding emotions in a way other than "If experience person talks, the words he says causes a psionic ripple as people's opinions are changed.

Oh, Exalted's social system!

>>55079979

Buddhism maintains that violence, something that is traditionally considered a bad thing, is simply an inconvenience and a roadblock on the road to universal enlightenment. That said, it also maintains that not using violence to stop someone else from using violence is worse than applying enough fist to that person to make them stop.

So if you have a motherfucker that won't stop saying "What?" without eating his free will with your much more powerful free will, it might be in your--and the world's--best interest if you pick up your mental fork and chow down on his weak brains.

Metaphorically.

>>55084125
In a game of make believe where enough charisma can get you anything, thats basically the case though.

>>55072150
Infinitely replaceable minions and thralls is not nothing.

>>55084125
This is a community where actual charisma and social success is as unreachable as actual magic to many of it's members. Are you really surprised?

>>55084179
Infinitely replaceable cohorts and followers isn't nothing either.

You can spin it however you want, but thrallherd is functionally the same as leadership. One just takes a bit more effort to maintain.

A thrallherd and leadership user are pulling from the same infinitely replaceable pool after all.

>>55084150
How do you accidentally develop thrallherd abilities? It's a psionic prestige class that you get as a result of honing your powers until you can permanently mind control people.

yeah yeah, /tg/ memes and having fun notwithstanding, but talking about the Thrallherd as something that comes up in an actual game? It's an intentional act by an experienced psionicist.

>>55084202
I seem to recall thrallherds having more mooks and a better partner than Leadership, but it's been a while sincce I checked.

>>55084219
The key difference is that they get a second large mook.

Otherwise, its exactly the same. From the top level, the leadership score needed for it, and even the amounts of followers you can have a one time.

Okay, lets set the record straight.

Thrallherds send out a psychic signal that essentially says "this is who I am, this is what I am like, this is what I need, this is how I will treat you". If you are a person who is receptive to this particular signal, you will find yourself seekign the source of that signal and providing the services he has desired. It is a subconscious desire to serve this particular and individual person because he is what he is, and you are who you are.

The key point to remember is that those without this predisposition towards this particular signal will never sense it. and when the psychic signal is spread among as many followers as it can be broadcast to, it ceases. when followers or thralls die, the signal restarts, until those positions are once again filled. Each thrallherd calls to people eaxctly suited to their subconscious desires. The followers are rewarded for their service with the pleasure of fulfilling a subconscious need they do not have much sense of without the presence of the thrallherd.

This is why thrallherds are served by people who are EXACTLY what they need and desire in servants. The connection between a thrallherd and his followers is not direct, but unconscious, and they compliment each other perfectly.

it isn't sklavery either, and a follower or thrall would look at you in utter confusion if you tried to explain it that way.

"It's like being an angel and sitting next to god. You are always an angel, but the feeling of being next to god cannot be explained to anyone who isn't an angel."

>>55084202
Except followers who die don't get replaced without effort or time and losing a cohort impacts your leadership badly - it lowers your leadership score significantly. You also have to pay and support your followers. A Thrall who dies is automatically replaced, as are followers. The mechanics are incredibly different.

>>55084234
IMO the key difference is that you will always regain your allies within 24 hours. Leadership allies have to be recruited the old fashioned way.

>A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours.

>>55084202
Leadership doesn't give you infinitely replaceable minions, you know. Nor do your minions serve you fanatically unto death. read up on the rules again.

>>55084206
Because it's an interesting twist and easily salable as a side effect or unintended consequence that can make for interesting character development (admittedly a little "single-player" oriented).

>Be a telepath
>Attempt to boost your signal and train to be stronger.
>Make a leap in power, the side effect is you are always broadcasting "something".
>As you feel your psionic residue on the person who approaches you in town one day, you realise what the signal is.

I mean, I'd play a Thrallherd who's goal is to find some way to exchange their thrallherd levels for something else. They aren't 100% on board with this thing, despite becoming more ambivalent to it as they realise the people they draw in might have better lives now, or at the very least "answering the call" saved their life in some way. Maybe the Thrallherd is effectively someone's patron and they used chose to become a thrall in order to accomplish their own goals.

Honestly I'd love to DM for a Thrallherd, there's just so much interesting character possible to see how the player responds to their thralls. A serial killer who sold his ability to kill as he pleased for a second chance. A warfarged who discovered a dark secret and is desperately clawing for a cause in life. The farm boy who wants nothing more than to be a hero, and answers the PC's call because the mental influence will turn him INTO that hero personality-wise.

>>55084174
Which is actually really interesting to think about in a meta sense. It's a game where "I roll a dice and get X result using X skill I possess. Do I succeed?" is the basis of the game, and it's very easy to see every interaction that way.

>>55084353
Not the anon you replied to, but to me it just reads as a desperate attempt to absolve oneself of any responsibility or guilt by saying it was forced on you or you didn't want it or whatever initiative sapping ploy one can think of. This is the same shit harem protags get up to and why they're always so passive and apologetic all the fucking time.

If you're gonna be a Thrallherd, embrace it and be a fucking Thrallherd and not some passive, wishy-washy, guilt-ridden nancy-boy. But that's just my opinion.

>>55084498
>characterization is bad
Your opinion is shit.

>>55071882

No, it's pretty fucking terrifying a Paragon Path in 4e. You have enslaved someone's mind and made it obey you, there is good reasons that your Thrall uses your actions to attack (It can't actually act without direction)

>>55084320
Its epic level, but a high enough diplo roll will convince people to do literally anything.

Since your cohorts and followers are always "Helpful", it'd take a roll of 50 to make turn them into a zealot.

If we're assuming even level bard as a max level thrallherd, thats level 16. level 6 for the PrC or leadership, and 10 levels of thrallherd. without any modifiers to charisma or bonus's, you would have a diplo roll of 19. assuming a charisma of 18 thats +4, which is on the low end for main stats at this level, bringing you up to 23.

So at level 16 with the highest possible base stat roll and skills, a bard is already most of the way to rolling high and turning someone into a retard.

With a cloak of charisma +6, thats +3 to the roll, making it 26. With Voice of the dragon from spell compendium, thats now 36. Meaning you have around a 30% chance of making someone into a fanatic. At level 16 and with 1 fourth level spell slot used. Without any other kind of bonus but 2 enhancement bonus's, one to charisma and the other to diplo.

And this is before taking into account their abilities to mesmerize, fascinate, suggest, or fucking GEAS.

Hate to say it, but the demerits for a bard to use leadership don't mean jack diddly because he can magically fuck people into thinking whatever he wants anyways. With high enough diplo rolls, he can probably even incite them using the dead person as a martyr.

>>55084574
That doesn't work in some games (especially PF -- they have a rule specifically to curtail that shit). You try it in PF and most of your Leadership based followers will laugh in your face and quit.

>>55084630
Since we've been using 3.5 this entire time, i was using that as the basis.

But at the same, time, whats to stop a bard from using mass suggestion to help along his speech?

You make it sound like it so easy for a bunch of no name grunts to just shrug off diplomacy and magic powerful enough for a bard to do almost whatever they want.

>>55084498
That's a perfectly reasonable characterization to have. It can be a bit tired with how harem Protags usually display those qualities as well, coupled with denseness.

If we're going into light-hearted/sex for comedy as character motivations. There's also the character who's trained to be really good at mind control because it's their fetish, and they know it's evil but... if they do good deeds to balance it out and don't go full personality death then at least they're not as evil as they could be? Just kind of sociopaths who went to an absurd lengths to make it ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

Same idea, but instead of going "I know it's evil, but If it's the only evil thing I do...?" someone goes "oh fuck, I thought it was just a fantasy I didn't think it would work!" and panics at the idea of what they've done, constantly at war with their arousal and their moral centre.

Staying light hearted there's also just the Thrallherd who's trained to be one, but holds himself to impeccable standards for it to the point of being completely anal about their treatment, or who keeps getting ones "slightly off" from what he imagined and gets pissed that his powers aren't working properly.

>>55084574
>>55084630
>>55084668
If we're getting minmaxy diplomacy, pretty sure in 3.5, 1 level from Marshall lets you and all allies add your ChaMod to all skill checks using a specific ability (extra +7 to previous math), 1 level of Warlock gives you a cast at the start of the day that adds +5 to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff. Combined with if you have I think 5 ranks in bluff you get another +2 to diplomacy... Dipolmancy is a scary school of magic.

>>55084668
Spells wear off, and most spells don't also remove the memory of what has been done. You can use Mass suggestion - and the people who save will know you tried to mind control them, and the ones who didn't will remember what they did and who told them to do it.

That doesn't inspire loyalty or friendship, and it will sure as hell piss off your minions. It will be incredibly difficult to recruit them regardless of your charisma if people avoid you like the plague. But 3.5 rules were so broken that charisma was truly the mind control stat.

The thing about a thrallherd is that while your charisma needs to be a 13, it's not a requirement of the class. An int-based psion can become a thrallherd, and he doesn't need to make diplomacy checks or mind control his followers. They will do what he asks regardless, up to and including dying for him because they are that deeply connected to him. They do this because they serve him and that service is not only it's own reward, it is the ONLY reward that matters, regardless of how he treats them. More importantly, if they do die, he doesn't need to recruit or try and find them - unlike leadership, where if you lose followers, they remain dead until you personally go recruiting - some more just show up a little later, ready and willing to help.

>>55084775
Do you not know how mob mentality works? Propoganda? the human brain at all?

For that matter, they may not even be aware that you used these abilities. A bard can fascinate people with perform checks, and from there make suggestions as he pleases. At level 18 he can make suggestions to an entire crowd so long as he has them fascinated.

If the publics view on you is bad, a bard is capable of turning that around. Twisting it. Making it sympathetic to his cause. All it takes is a shitload of diplomacy to turn their view back around.

If there's one thing a bard has in spades, its Diplo.

>>55076344
You just described basically Patrick Noth - My Posse.

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>>55076344
>>Fan-clubs uniting around conspiracy theory that I am actually Me.

>>55071882
What happens when a Thrallherd thralls a Thrallherd?

>>55083161
And cult leaders are often frowned upon in modern society, much in the way Thrallherds are.

All this Thrallherd discussion has given me the idea of a new cruel trick. Making an antagonists a Thrallherd and making one of the PCs have the so called "psychic link" that is called upon after Thrallie loses his last herd.

>>55085864
Are they?

Not until they do something horrendously bad, i would say.

>>55085885
You'd have to work it out with the player ahead of time. Otherwise you'd be an ass for removing control of his character.

>>55085903
At the very least leave it up to a d100 with like, 3% chance of it happening.

Or allowing a will save to shrug it off.

>>55085849
It's Thrallherds all the way down.

>>55085849
A Ponzi scheme based on thrallherds, duh.

>>55085885
The PC must be willing to serve fanatically, and willing to die for their master. It really doesn't work. You're literally taking away player autonomy.

>>55086072
>>55085849
>>55086027
Can't happen. sending the signal blocks reception of the signal, and it's a constant sending of the signal, even when your minion capacity is at full. If you were drawn to serve, you wouldn't be a thrallherd in the first place.

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>woman finds out she's a thrallherd
>thinks that it's great
>aww yiss time to surround myself in perfect men
>every thrall proceeds to be female

>>55086494
That would be hilarious.

>>55086494
there's a manga about that. girl gets into middle school, hoping for a co-ed school for her romance, discovers she's not only in an all girls school but every girl wants her....and she is developing a crush on the one that doesn't.

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>>55086494

>All these mental gymnastics to justify playing a psychic slavetaker that isn't considered objectively evil
Hmm

>>55086548
I mean, its not like hitler was objectively evil either.

Until he started talking about gassing jews, and shit like that.

Its not about how they come to you, but what you make em do.

>>55086548
It's not slavery. It's literally fulfilling a need the follower has, to serve someone with a specific nature that they can serve effectively and well. If the need and desire are not there - nothing happens, literally. Thrallherds can't even force the need onto people except the same way every caster can, by using domination/charm/actual mind control and when that power/spell fades, the person isn't enthralled anymore. Followers and thralls are either born to serve that thrallherd, or they are not. If they are not, they feel no urge to do so.

It's that simple.

I thought the issue with the thrallherd is that the only kind of person who would actually want to use such powers is the kind of megalomaniac who thinks themselves superior to everyone else to the point they know what's better for everyone around them.
While on the other hand, the kind of person you could trust with such abilities would be the person who doesn't want the power at all.

>>55086590
Admittedly, it's still creepy as fuck, and scares the hell out of normal people.

>>55086548
The diplomancer leader builds are far more horrific than the thrallherds are, anon.

>>55086548
Well maybe if the class required an evil alignment?

As for my gymnastics, once played a NG elan psion with no idea who he was or why the human he was previously got converted into an elan. Went hunting for answers about himself and psionic powers, ended up tracking leads to a duergar city.

Things had been pretty rough in the Underdark and we have a house rule about studying/tutoring to generate XP, but the tutor chooses things like skills, feats, class abilities for your next level. So I went with that to pick up a few levels, agreeing to deal with duergar levels of brutally hard work in order to stay and try to learn more about his situation. Didn't like a whole LE city, but he was 4th level and not much to do to change things.

A bit later he realized that his training was being directed toward mind control, and not being comfortable with that, decided to leave. It was a bit late though, he was already developing into a thrallherd, and the duergar didn't want to let him escape now that he was becoming potentially useful. Cue escape scene, causing chaos and distractions along the way to slow pursuit.

At one point he freed a bunch of slave scribes from a library he was trying to cut through, and one of them ended up latching onto his thrall call, a NE drow girl who figured he was her ticket to better things if she could make a good impression.

And so my PC ended up a NG thrallherd with a thrall who rather worried him and didn't even speak Common for awhile. When followers began arriving he thought it was just more people looking for some life advice and maybe leadership, ended up growing a bit of a small community while the drow was confused about how being nice was getting people to do as he said, but hey it worked and she couldn't complain about there being benefits to her new life over the old one.

>>55071882
>thrallherds are not objectively evil!

Objective evil isn't real, anon; and subjectively they are evil to many people.

>>55086761
Objective evil is real in D&D.

>>55086767
But Thrallherd abilities are defined as neutral.

>>55086856
Thus, not evil

>>55086856
>>55086964
Basically the psychic call only attracts people who are into being mind controlled anyway.

>>55071882
True, but it's also a reminder that there is literally nothing wrong with killing a thrallherd, they're actually a pretty creepy class.
Especially when they're showing you hypnofetish porn. That's not ok at the table, outside of ERP.

>>55086988
Now, if only people that actually played thrallherds would remember this.

>>55083329
>I wish i didn't have to use a mass murderer as an example
Really makes you think...

>>55087085
Its not because it doesn't happen.

Its because negative stories are more viscerally remembered by mass media, and continue to be told.

Any potential positive versions are buried under the human conditions visceral reaction to negativity.

So, trallherds "victims" is literally philosophical zombies?

>>55087105
Sure, but I'd still like another example before I credit you with more than antidote and a weird fetish.
Lay it on me, I love learning.

>>55087131
>Anecdote
Stupid phone, and me for not proof reading.

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>>55086988
>Thrallherds are a perfectly self-sustaining dom/sub relationship

>>55087131
I guess one example would be that teacher everyone really likes and listens too. In the case of their children, parents as well. Any sort of charismatic presence that people are likely to listen too is something similar to any charismatic leader of a group.

The only reason we don't consider this the same is that its not as extreme as someone causing negative effects like manson or hitler. They don't take it as far, so its not considered the same thing.

>>55086856
Was it actually defined as neutral?
Or was it left undefined?

>>55087161
So it's the same thing the way a mouse and an elephant are the same thing?

>>55087217
To be frank, force of personality and motivation are the only real differences.

>>55087217
Looks like it. They're both animals that rely on the same chemicals and general structures to function.
And then you change it to magical direct influence, and it's more like a bird? So the mouse, the elephant, and the bird are all the same thing, because they're all animals.
Seems a bit vague for me. Let's get out of this silly metaphor.

Parenting, cult mentality, and magical direct mental manipulation are all the same thing, because they all give influence over another person. I can see logic here, it's just not accounting for all the factors.
I think that how you get something is important, but if someone doesn't, then it's not really a factor for them.

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>>55086597
That's not untrue.
Another layer of the problem is that you can't tell if you're under the thrallherd's influence or not. He's probably charismatic and likable, so if you like him, or you're doing what he want's, is it because you want to, or because he made you want to?
So then you need to do something he doesn't want you to do to prove that you aren't his puppet, but what if that was part of his plan to lull you into a false sense of security and make you easier to manipulate.
Clearly, logic dictates that the only way to prove your freedom is to rabidly hate, and brutally murder the thrallherd. It's just common sense.

>>55087159
This.

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>>55087476
Except that's not how it works.

Believers don't need to concern themselves with the idealized version of free will. They HAVE free will. But serving the thrallherd is something that is natural and makes sense. He's someone who deserves the support and strength they can provide to him, because they are the person that can provide that strength and service. There isn't any cognitive dissonance in this thought process for a believer where his thrallherd is concerned. But if someone ELSe tries to mind control them, it's horrible and rapey and monstrous. It's an unforgivable act of violation.

The thrallherd is more than a lover, more than a friend, more than an ally. To a believer, the thrallherd is a reason to live, and that reason is worth dying for. Anyone who tried to convince them otherwise is a fool and ignorant.

>>55087537
Yeah, but how do I, an outsider, understand that? It's a bunch of meta mumbo jumbo, and trying to explain it to me is clearly an attempt to override my poor, tiny brain.
From an outsider's perspective, it's a scary unknown that needs to die.

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>>55087537
Except it doesn't matter how it works.
It matters how it looks.
Liking a thrallherd is clearly some sort of curse.
You need to be free of this curse!
KILL HIM!

Thrallherd Bard Lich
>"Welcome! Welcome! My new toys! Now DANCE! DANCE FOR ME!"

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>>55087686
>>55087476
>>55086548
>>55075468
Why won't anybody listen to these people? Thrallherds turn people into pawns! They do so "willingly" because thrallherds alter the wills of others by exploiting the mental disadvantages of others!

Bards and Thrallherds are clearly the same thing!
>Bards have to make a decision to use their powers.
>Thrallherds just constantly spray slave juice into the air without any control.
Wait a minute...

>>55087822
I'd argue that makes a bard worse. In a thrallherds case, they only get people that were predisposed to it anyways.

Bards can do it to anyone.

>>55087847
This why a Thrallherd Bard would be terrifying.
>"What happens if I decide not to work for you?"
>"...Did I say you had a choice?"

>>55087847
I think they're just as bad, but I wouldn't argue that they're the same. Difference is, the bard can choose not to be. The thrallherd is bad no matter what, and in ways that they can't predict or direct.

So, say a guy's sister is, "pre-disposed," but was living a good life before she wandered off to join a cult, yeah? Let's hope that guy isn't a retired adventurer, because her seeming happy isn't going to stop him.

>>55087924
Its a choice in both situations. A thrallherd chooses to take those abilities. There's almost no chance of accidentally becoming a thrallherd.

>>55087131
there's good old jim jones oh wait...

>>55087974
The PLAYER chooses to take levels in Thrallherd. The CHARACTER, on the other hand, does just 'awaken' to those abilities.

I mean, unless your game has no fourth wall whatsoever and is completely meta.

>>55087974
Accidental thrallherds has been a theme that's come up in this very thread. >>55079755 Though I'm not really sure what that has to do with a bard that chooses not to use mass suggestion.
To be honest, choosing that route of constant wide spread lack of control puts the, "just as bad," to a, "slightly worse," in my opinion. I only see them as, "bad," the same way I might see a weapon as, "bad."
At least a directed weapon can choose targets, to some degree.

>>55088047
There is still an impetus to learn the skills required to become a thrallherd, and practice in that general direction.

Even though in fluff you "Awaken" you have basically put yourself at the point where you CAN awaken.

You still need to have the required psionic skills.

I find this whole debate as pointless as debating if it's good to send those demons the Malconvoker keep spawning on suicide missions.
Or if you have to mourn whenever a batch of intestinal bacterias get killed because you drank a healing potion.

>>55086761
Except in D&D objective evil IS real. Look at the average demon/devil. They're literally made of evil.
The Thrallherd is not evil by itself. Sending thralls to a mission that may result in them get killed is not evil, provided that the task is for the greater good. Ethic-wise, is the same as striking a monster with a intelligent weapon. There is a risk that the weapon may break, and so, "die"; yet nobody would argue for a weapon, right?

>>55088205
Except the weapon is a weapon, even without a wielder. What would the people be if they never had a magic signal telling them to listen to this random dude?

>>55088261
A weapon for someone else.

>>55088273
>A weapon for someone else.
Oh, you're one of those people. Right...
Well, if other people are just objects and tools, I doubt ethics is going to be a concern.

>>55088261
No, the (intelligente( weapon, without a wielder is, by this logic, a creature with an intelligence and without a mean of locomotion. If everything, it's even worse; that would be like beating someone with a paraplegic.

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Mechanically, Thrallherd is only an issue because of power levels and the time it takes at the table to get things moving and accomplished. When I play one (or anything similar that has a constant companion ala rangers/summoners/druids and so on) I tend to flashcard the character up and get a few basic actions written down that they do frequently so that I don't stall time at the table.

Fluff wise it depends entirely on the setting and playgroup. I've had a game where Thrallherds were tapping into genetic control markers left behind by the alien race that originally seeded the planet for life. Another setting had Dorf inspired Dwarves that existed entirely in Thrallherd run enclaves that would split off like swarming beehives whenever another Thrallherd awakened and it was just their racial theme. Most amusing one was a player who had no knowledge of the class but wanted to play as an "almost rts type character" so everything was refluffed to be mass-summoned minor outsiders and a few generals.
Any leader figure can easily be made as a thrallherd if you're not attached to the psionic component. Pic related.

Mind control is an iffy thing for a lot of people, and in real life it would be terrifying and against every law to the point that Charm Person or Suggestion would be punishable on the same scale as date rape drugs and slipping someone a roofie. In a fantasy setting though, where things that can bewitch the senses and beguile the mind are par for the course? You just have to hope the person with the Enchantment magic is a good person overall.

>>55074882
Is this one of those legendary 「Jojo Referencest」 I've been hearing about?

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One part thrallherd, one part fiend of possession, all fun.

>>55088481
You could always just keep it around for advice. It's not like it could ever be a farmer, or a knight, or pharmacist, or a singer. Well, it might be a singer. It would be kind of a dick move to make a sword that wants to be a farmer, though. But none of that matters.

A human has a lot of options, and a "predisposition" for control whatever the fuck that means tends to alter the path in life they would have taken, should you decide to take advantage of it.
I'm not really arguing from a moral standpoint, I'm just saying that comparing a human to weapon is a false equivalence, even if that weapon is a person. One was given a handle by the a smith, and the other had a handle put in their brain by whatever process created them. That doesn't make the human into a weapon, and wielding them as one is on you.
Do it for a cause, I don't care. Just know that it's you doing it.

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>>55088643
>>55088711
What other good examples of Thrallherds in media are there?

>>55084193
>le anyone who disagrees with muh opinion about a fantasy game must be unable to understand real realationships
wow great argument, all the posts like this totally change the thrallherd description to evily overpowering people's will to turn them into drones.

>>55084206
>How do you accidentally develop thrallherd abilities? It's a psionic prestige class
>what is fluff and roleplay
It's also explicitly not permanent mind control in the description or mechanics.

>>55089036
There's all sorts of doujins about it on sadpanda

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>>55089036
Perfect example.

>>55089036
Heartbreaker in Worm had the ability to inflict emotions on people. He could addict you to pleasure or traumatize you with a few seconds of unadulterated fear.

Being an unimaginative person, he merely used this power to accumulate a harem of movie stars--and, naturally, produced (and traumatized) dozens of children with similar but divergent powers. IIRC, the only two children that are described in the story are:
- Cherie (can sense and change emotions at long range, targeted or area-effect)
- Vasil (given a moment, can cause a spontaneous muscle twitch in someone within mid-range line of sight--good for making someone stumble while running or drop a weapon, but several uses in a short timeframe cause painful backlash; given several hours at close range, can establish a permanent, long-range mental "backdoor" for directly puppeting a person, and can control several such puppets simultaneously)

>>55086494
Her teeth look like glue.

>>55084202
>>55084219
>>55084234
>>55084287
If you do the whole class then thrallherd leadership is slightly better than base leadership, class levels count twice for leadership score. But that's pretty much all you get for fully investing in a prestige class that you already need to be around level six to take without min-maxing with race and/or feats to get it earlier. At that point, a sorcerer/wizard could just take the leadership feat on top of all their superior magical abilities.

Some have pointed out that you can take leadership penalties for losing followers and other stuff, but you can likewise raise your leadership with victories and other stuff like having a base of operations while the thrall leadership is flat and can only be raised higher with progressing in the class(to a limit) or raising their charisma. Along with being able to improve leadership through gameplay/roleplay there are also some optional feats that the thrallherd doesn't get like epic leadership which takes it to another level, really just taking leadership and epic leadership is more bang for your investment than full thrallherd progression.
While replacement believers show up in 24 hours it's entirely up to the dm what believers show up. If you throw your toughest warriors into suicide missions again and again expecting you'll always get more then the dm doesn't have to cooperate, maybe he'll send you that chef the party has talked about needing for awhile. On the other side while replacement followers for normal leadership don't automatically show up the difficulty of replacing them is variable with your own roleplay, gameplay and the dm's cooperation. Does your organisation have a recruitment department, why not? You can also actually pick and choose who you want from the npcs you meet given you can convince them to your cause, which isn't that hard barring dm intervention with what others have said about charisma being magical in d&d.

>>55084775
>An int-based psion can become a thrallherd, and he doesn't need to make diplomacy checks or mind control his followers.
Ok but the thrallherd leadership ability is literally CHA based like normal leadership. You can be a low-CHA thrallherd but you'll be weaker at your main gimmick for it like a low-CHA sorcerer.

You're seriously like the third anon I've seen in this thread make this shitty argument that the difference between normal leadership and a thrallherd is like the difference between INT and CHA.

>>55086494
>>55086548
I notice that the spergs whining about their strawman of creepy weeaboo fetishists and their evil mind control harems didn't get triggered when it's cute girls, hmmmm.

>>55089859
There are 71 unique IPs in this thread, anon. Do you think both sets of replies are from the same exact people?

>>55086597
>I thought the issue with the thrallherd is that the only kind of person who would actually want to use such powers is the kind of megalomaniac who thinks themselves superior to everyone else to the point they know what's better for everyone around them.
So the average adventurer?

>>55086998
>there's nothing wrong with party-killing for triggering muh sensitive white knight feels
t. that guy
If someone is actually making people uncomfortable or showing people porn without them wanting it then you talk amoung the group and tell them to knock it off or fuck off. Passive aggressively trying to meta sabotage another player is nearly as pathetic as the creep themselves.

I'm a little surprised, but pleasantly so, that no one has mentioned Goodkind's Sword of Truth series or the "Confessors" found therein. I assume that means people are reading his books, which is always a good thing.

>>55089976
>Thrallherd player accusing someone of being That Guy
This shit has just lost all meaning hasn't it

>>55079876
>D&D
>Ever good

>>55087476
>So then you need to do something he doesn't want you to do to prove that you aren't his puppet, but what if that was part of his plan to lull you into a false sense of security and make you easier to manipulate.
Believers are not mindless drones, they can take independent action and don't need constant orders, they're still people like normal followers.

Heck a lot of the more fluff-y roleplay heavy interpretations of the dynamic that people have talked about here are ones where the believers largely act without the direction of the thrallherd but them others start sperging out about harems even if there's no sexual element mentioned.

>>55087667
>>55087686
>>55087808
>Clearly, logic dictates that the only way to prove your freedom is to rabidly hate, and brutally murder the thrallherd. It's just common sense.
Might as well kill all mages, religious leaders and charismatic people while you're at it, just in case. Watch out for adventuring parties organising to stop your reign of terror.

What the fuck is a thrallherd

>>55090156
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm

>>55090108
I hope you meant 'are not' because holy fuck those books were bad and I regret that they were one of the first fantasy series I found as a kid.

>>55090297
Yes, I meant "are not." Thank you for catching that.
God, I hate those books.

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>>55090148
>giving people information true or false with the intent of convincing them to do things, which can easily be countered by simply ignoring them
>everyone who isn't autistic can do this, and can counter other people's rhetoric with their own
>All of this is apparently equal to equal to invading people's minds and bending them, which can only be countered by being aware of the sneaky effects and it's difficult to find out.

Thrallherd apologists, everyone!

Uh, reading about how the thrallherd works I think there is no problem. It doesn't work like how OP's pick implies. It more plays up BS "people tied together by fate." You make a psychic call for BFFs and they show up.

>>55090370
Anon, don't you see, they're already in your head.

ITS MIND CONTROL IT IS EVIL AND REEEEEE

Not like it could ever actually be something good.

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>>55090148
Yeah, you're right. I definitely wasn't talking about the relatively common theme of thrallherds that command slavish devotion, or anything. I was totally referring to the outliers that come up with entertaining and creative fluff that doesn't make me want to vomit.

>>55071971
holy shit Yog got a girlfriend

>>55090391

Oh no, I agree that it seems to be 100% designed to do gross shit. Like, looking at it you got a lot of tools to do a lot of gross shit.

Just RAW it doesn't say it's meant to do gross shit.

If a player came up to me saying they wanted to be a thrallherd, I'd give them a sideways glance.

>>55090504

10/10

>>55087822
>bard "powers"
You mean violent aggressive sonic mind-rape-slave attacks?
Oh it's fun to make stuff sound bad by adding a bunch of bullshit!

>>55087924
>the bard can choose not to bard
But they ARE bard!
Hmmm really makes you think.

>So, say a guy's sister was living a good life before she wandered off to join a bard/adventuring party/monetary/circus yeah?
Let's hope that guy isn't a retired cultist, because her seeming happy isn't going to stop him.
ftfy because it seems like the brother is the guy who wants to exert absolute control over his sister regardless of her will.

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>>55090558
>I can change the meaning of a sentence by changing the words inside it.
"Fixed" that for you.
Now, do you have an actual argument?

>>55088083
You would have more a point if the prerequisites especially revolved around powers to manipulate and control people but the requirements are :
Manifester level 5th
Diplomacy 4 ranks(interesting for all those ranting about diplomacy and charisma being completely separate)
Knowledge psionic 8 ranks(it's just a basic psionic skill knowledge arcane equivalent)
The Inquisitor feat(lets you expend psionic focus to gain a +10 bonus on a sense motive check to oppose a bluff check)
And the ability to manifest the power "mind-link" which is just a one on one telepathy spell that explicitly gives no power or influence over the target.
Overall besides general psychic power it's all about connecting with and understanding others.

>>55088205
If you really want to get into strict gygaxian morality he even said it would be Good to take slaves of an evil or even neutral opponent if they were being used for some vital greater good.

>>55090558
>So, say a guy's sister was living a good life before she wandered off to join a brothel as a crack whore, yeah?
Let's hope that guy isn't a retired cop, because her seeming happy isn't going to stop him.
Weeeee, this is fun, and doesn't actually address the issue!

>>55090665

>Good to take slaves of an evil or even neutral opponent if they were being used for some vital greater good.

To be fair, I don't think Gygax really thought too much about what it means to have a slave.

It's one thing to say "do this thing, no I won't pay you" and it's another to put in the institutions required to force an unwilling populace to labor.

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How common is mind-control as a fetish? I've seen a whole lot of random fetish bullshit on 4chan (mostly on /v/), but literally the only place I've ever seen any reference to a mind-control fetish outside the porn boards is in these threads, and it's always from someone complaining that things should be banned because "fucking fetishfags ruining muh gaem".

Are these the same people who ban all non-human races because they're terrified of furries?

>>55090769

I know it's a tag in Sad Panda land.

>>55090558
>Hmmm really makes you think.
No, not really. I have hands, but that doesn't mean I'm going to use them to strangle people.
Now, if I had a bunch of invisible magic hands, and they would always seek out people that are "predisposed" to being strangled, people might find that a little off putting.

You know, just to word that in a negative context so you feel more comfortable with it.

>>55090769
Pretty common. As far as I know, /aco/, /d/, and /trash/ each tend to have a thread about it active at all times.

>>55090769
My former DM was very into it. "Charm isn't rape, it's consent," levels of stupid. Tried to push me into taking Thrallherd in a psychic campaign, but I just stonewalled his ass and ignored the increasingly lethal plothooks he kept throwing at me. It ended with him just giving up the campaign halfway through, and I haven't played with him since.

>>55090703
Yeah we can both keep tossing out bullshit scenarios to fit whatever argument but the original "issue" you want to address was just another bullshit scenario to suit your argument.
Oh what if they're a hard working but happy mother of five and they cold-heartedly abandon their family to join the dark lord spiky helmet but their brave chosen hero son comes to dm-fiat the death of the evil player who tyrannically controls not just fictional characters but the whole gaming group with their terrible mind-rape!

>>55090664
My point was to mock the original "argument" that just used a bunch of eeeeeeevil sounding descriptors to make one side sound bad.

>>55090422
Oh yeah it's so reasonable when you talk about common themes and outliers, obviously, that justifies player killing anyone who plays a class that triggers your sensitive feels and trying to justify it with some bullshit about protecting free will.

>>55089036
That's actually an interesting example with the sequel or side movie or whatever that showed the minions searching throughout history for a leader, comically leading to the death of most of their would-be masters.

>>55079849
>for the Greater Good

>>55089878
That wasn't what I was implying.

>>55080449
I think I've read this pornfic.
Post more so I can be sure.

No you don't understand, some people are just born to be eager fuckslaves. The thrallherd just sends out a passive call for cocksleaves and they come to him. There is nothing creepy about me as a player for wanting to play a class that revolves entirely around collecting a harem of slaves who obey my every whim.

>>55086494
Yurika's Campus Life?

>>55091104
But my sensitive feels! If you word things roughly, I'll feel bad and ignore what you're saying!

Which is fair, but I'm still going to mock people for it while I disregard their disregard.

>>55091165
Right? Who really cares if a bunch of retards people on the internet can't pull their heads out of their asses? It's not like I actually have to game with these faggots.

>>55090111
I've never actually played the class.
I'm just actually aware of what the books say while you retards project your issues with stupid stuff like harem animes onto a d&d class and use a bullshit pseudo-philosophical flawed argument about white knighting for free will and totally not made up statistically accurate player profiling as a justification for passive aggressively harassing other players for playing classes you don't like.
That is the very definition of That Guy trying to fuck up other people's enjoyment of the game.

The way actual adults deal with that shit is actually talking to the group about what you want with the game and communicating with the player and group if someone is acting in a way that's shitting up the game for others.
Hell, if you think some player who wants to play a thrallherd, or anything else like a diplomamancer or even a druid if they're a furry, is going to be some fetishy mess that detracts from the game then you should say that before the game instead of staying quiet and passively aggressively meta harassing them like some little bitch.

Thrallherd's aren't for every game just like leadership isn't for every game but you've taken up some sjw tier crusade against thrallherds ever being a viable option and adocating That Guy harrassment of other players with the justification the the guy with special leadership must be even worse.

>>55082533
1 and 3 are best, 2 is worst.

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>>55091104

>>55090504
Your feefees were actually hurt enough to make this?

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>>55089036
This is Momo-chan. She has the ability to charm people through any direct or indirect exposure. Hearing her voice or even seeing something drawn by her is enough to spur an obsession. For a long time, she had trouble going out in public without being swarmed with attention, and it didn't exactly get better when she became an idol to help with her family's financial issues.

>>55090359
>mages that literally mind control people, religious leaders that get magical bonuses to influence, and high CHA people that can create a magical mind-control effect like mages are just normal convincing people that anyone who isn't autistic can do
Please remember we are talking about a game here and not real life. You seem to be mixing the two up which is interesting since people keep projecting that at the thrallherd players too.

>invading people's minds and bending them, which can only be countered by being aware of the sneaky effects and it's difficult to find out
None of this is true, you are literally shitposting now.
It can't be countered no matter how aware you are because there's nothing to be countered, it likewise can't be dispelled, removed like a curse or enchantment or deactivated in an antimagic field because there's no magical enchantment and nothing altered changed bent.

At this point I assume you don't actually care about the rules or fluff and are just looking for an excuse to shitpost.

"Hey, could you not play a Thrallherd. I know you like it, but it makes the others at the table uncomfortable."
>Fuck you, I do what I want!
"Well, if that's how you want this relationship to go, I guess we can do what we want too."
>What!? PLAYER KILLING THAT GUYS! THIS ISN'T FAIR!

From the Chronicles of Never Happened, but still an entertaining story. Have another.


"Hey, could you not play a Thrallherd. I know you like it, but it makes the others at the table uncomfortable."
>That's ok, I had another character concept I wanted to try out. I'm glad we talked.
"Cool. You're an alright dude, and I enjoy playing with you."
>And I enjoy playing with you, but I'm also glad that I can find other groups to experiment with, because not all groups will be able to run scenarios that I enjoy.
"THE MORE YOU KNOW!"

And then there's always this one.


"..."
>I want to play a Thrallherd.
"OH MY GOD YOU'RE SUCH A PERVERT I'M GOING TO KILL YOUR CHARACTER STOP BEING SUCH A FAGGOT HOLY SHT!"
>I don't think gaming with these people is a good use of my time...
"FUCK YOU!"

>>55091286
>8 line post about nothing but saltily accusing people of being immature
I'm just going to point down that your arguments about thrallherd not being an evil class are that it doesn't mechanically require you to be an evil alignment to take, and that it is mechanically identical to leadership with no consideration given to RP or the fluff mechanics of it.
So you're a rollplayer, and your opinion on the subject is worthless.

If you play a Thrallherd in any game where social logic isn't completely ignored for the player enjoyment, then you're either Evil or you're valid salad for anybody in the world to kill for being the the literal most insufferable thing for any society to allow to exist.
That's the end-all of it; any other reaction to a thrallherd's existence is complete suspension of disbelief so the player doesn't get upset

>>55086542
That is wonderful. What is that from?

>>55090799
>No, not really. I have hands, but that doesn't mean I'm going to use them to strangle people
Yeah but back to the actual topic bards have the power to magically manipulate people and they do, that's why they're bards. People have been making the argument that thrallherds choose to be thrallherds but the same is true of all the other magical manipulation that exists in the game that you don't get equally triggered about.

Also back to the topic thrallherds aren't spooky evil psychic stranglers. There can be evil thrallherds but they are not evil by requirement and can be good unlike other classes with alignment restrictions.

>>55091104
I mean if you were playing an erp then that might be appropriate, but it's not an argument against a class in general.
With that logic you should ban spell casters because they could be super fetishy with a bunch of the weirder spells.

>>55091000
They just need a master so very very badly..

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>>55091477

>>55091491
"I'm the Main Character of a Harem Manga, but I'm Gay so Every Day is Hell for Me". It's a one-shot.

>>55091546
>Yeah but back to the actual topic bards have the power to magically manipulate people and they do, that's why they're bards.
...
Does inspiring courage in your allies really count as manipulating people? I mean, I suppose it is, technically, but that seems like a place where you should get a pass.

>>55091546
Yeah, I gotta say, I dislike bards that use their abilities in that fashion, too.
It's a good thing that the bards that I've played stuck to inspiration and counter songs, with spell lists that consisted of buffs and illusions. While they were party face, they operated by talking and cajoling with people, represented by both roleplayed dialogue with NPCs, and a good diplomacy roll. I wouldn't play it if it couldn't turn off fascinate, or had some weird class feature that caused it to automatically cast suggestion every time it opened it's mouth.

I'm actually not of the opinion that no one should be allowed to play a Thrallherd. I wouldn't really want to play with one, but that's because >>55090854, not any real fault of the class. Just icky to me, but if you find a group that's ok with it, more power to you.
I'm just saying that saying that it's the same thing as a bard is kind of a false equivalence. A bard can be like a Thrallherd, but it isn't inherent, and those that choose it are kind of dicks.

>>55091486
>So you're a rollplayer, and your opinion on the subject is worthless.
So you don't have an argument and can only flail at a strawman.
It's such a stupid strawman and insult too given that we are talking about a roleplaying game, roleplaying is an intrinsic element of the topic.

My whole point is the rules, fluff and description of the class as presented in the book does not suggest all the stuff that people keep pulling out of their asses.

>If you play a Thrallherd in any game where social logic isn't completely ignored for the player enjoyment, then you're either Evil or you're valid salad for anybody in the world to kill for being the the literal most insufferable thing for any society to allow to exist.
Your personal opinion isn't the only acceptable "logic" and thrallherds are not inherently evil or spooky rape cults just because you say so. It's telling that you imply that they would necessarily be too "insufferable" for society to allow them to exist (in the world of murder hobos and wizards no less) when it's clearly just you that are triggered by their existence.

>>55091641

I understand that it sucks to get your feelings hurt. Don't be a baby.

>>55091829
Is it ok if we do kill the evil spooky rape cult?
Thrallherds aside, if a player just springs rape cults on the table, we can kill that shit, right?
Right?

>>55086590

Unless you got a source to back that up, it's not how it works. It's more of a psychic connection. How that connection is made isn't explored in the rules I saw.

>>55091772
Are you inspiring people to potentially fight to their deaths when they would otherwise flee?
There's also just a lot more direct cases of manipulation from bards to specialized clerics and prestige classes a plenty.
Of course, mundane manipulation has the same practical effect as magic too.

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Man I am so glad that Thrallherds didn't get ported over into pathfinder. It's so refreshing that certain bad apples just got left behind.
This one doesn't have to be evil either, perfectly find to be Lawful Good

>>55086548

The wording is very very careful to avoid it being literal slavery.

However it is still very very gross.

>>55086617
I think of it more like magical human resources assistance than anything else

>>55088643
>>55088711
>>55089036

It bugs me that these pictures aren't next to the thrallherd page. This makes the whole class concept a lot less gross.

>>55090463
>>55091898
>>55091942
>gross
Would you also say that it could be problematic?

>>55091881
>Are you inspiring people to potentially fight to their deaths when they would otherwise flee?
No, I just gave them a moral bonus. They're just better at what they decide to do, but ultimately do what they want.

>mundane manipulation
Only if you truly think that how something came about is irrelevant. For certain purposes, that's not wrong, but in general, it's incorrect.

>>55091873

The anon hasn't responded to this...I'm worried...

>>55091960

Yeah, problematic is just longer to type and is less sexy.

>>55091829
Wizard charms, Bardic speeches and other magical forms of influence are detectable and can have actions taken against them
Untrackable psychic mind control is anathema to society and its existence would cause every basic function of society impossible; all contracts are suspect when a party can be controlled, all concept of consent, self-determination and free will are endangered.
People would understand that their wives, children and friends could be whisked off into slavery, and it is LITERALLY psychic slavery, indiscriminately by you.

Society could overwhelmingly not suffer something like a thrallherd to live; you're worse than any goblin, or kobold or orc. You would literally be lynched by any person in the world to discover your nature.
In fact if you were to discover that you were unconsciously a thrallherd and your first choice isn't to fucking kill yourself, it would literally be an evil action.

It's a shitty fetish class, your inane idea that you're going to be a 'good aligned' slavemaster is complete tripe.

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>>55091942
Ugh so gross. Clearly the artist had his dick on one hand the whole time he was drawing. Seriously problematic and toxic

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>>55091969
It is worrying.
Maybe he just went to eat dinner or something, yeah?
Ha ha?

>>55092002

Okay, that's better. I was only seeing >>55090172

>>55092086
But that page has no art.

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>>55092030

Ha ha...yeah...I mean we get posters from all over the world! It could easily be dinner...

>>55092096

Yes, hence

>>55091942

>>55091788
Honestly it's not a very good class, weaker than straight casters for a slightly improved leadership, although normal leadership can actually get much better unless your dm provides custom advancement beyond the normal thrallherd progression.
And of course like leadership it requires a great deal of cooperation with the dm who likewise has a great deal of control of how effective the ability is since they'll generally be providing and controlling the npcs.

Really how icky the class is or not depends on the player and gm and how they fluff it, some of the examples like the kotor 2 protagonist or the minions are more innocent, and even evil thrallherds can be more silly-fun than creepy like with overlord and their goblin minions. You could even make an overlord evil-minion type character a good thrallherd. They've been chosen as the new dark lord by the evil horde who will obey their every command and are left trying to keep mayhem directed at the bad guys.

Thinking a bit more I remember some anon in one of these threads said they played a thrallherd but their dm let them swap out random people as followers for astral constructs so it was more like their own subconscious. That would be pretty interesting imo especially since at higher levels you could get lots of variety.

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>>55092002
Don't forget the one from Dreamscarred press!

>>55091873
If there's a spooky rape cult and the party is good or neutral then killing them is probably part of the quest, if the party is evil it might be a potential business enterprise, if it's unwantedly sexual and makes any of the group uncomfortable then they need to directly communicate that like adults.

>>55091960
You could even call it triggering.

I like how people apologize for Thrallherd by saying "Well Wizards and Bards can do it too" when any Wizard or Bard that uses mind controlling magic to make innocents sacrifice their lives for them would be so deep into 'Chaotic Evil' that the other players would probably gut them and loot them regardless of alignment.

>>55092128
>swap out random people as followers for astral constructs
Hey! That was me!
The game did go really well and the DM did, in my opinion, an awesome job of representing the social effects of being such a personally powerful force as well. Not on the adventures "I can go kill dragons barehanded." scale but on the "I am an economic force capable of mass infrastructure shifts and terraforming." which keeping it from getting bogged down in bookkeeping or tedium.

>>55092128
I just really don't like domination in general, so a class that specializes into it to the exclusion of other abilities will always be icky to me. I fully understand that it's my problem, but it's not going to go away.

>Subbed followers.
Oddly enough, I had been considering replacing the followers in Leadership with haunts of an even CR for a Pathfinder game. Spooky character's just straight up haunted. But at that point, it's not really the same thing.

>>55092327
That's cool as hell. I made an alchemist that did something similar with constructs, and it was fun to play the logistical powerhouse behind the party. It's a nice change from just hitting things until they stop moving.

>>55091994
It's untrackable and unresistable and can't be dispelled or anything because it's not mind control! There's nothing to resist and it's very clearly and specifically separate and different from magical compulsion which there are many versions of with specific rules.
You just have this asspull head canon and then insist that obviously everyone instantly recognises then as a creepy rape cult and society itself seeks to exterminate them based on nothing in the fluff but your own powerful opinions.
Your headcanon is not the default or one and only truth, get over it.

Your paranoia that anyone could be an enemy is nothing special and literally exists already in real life with indoctrination and spies and under cover agents or just paranoids seeing political enemies behind everything.
Way back when the assassins were first murdering in the middle east the real terror was that they took time to get in close to you and it could be anybody responsible when you find a knife with a warning letter stuck in your pillow.

You just project your personal issues onto a d&d class of all things and insist that your strawman head canon is the only possible way it can be played or fluffed.

>>55091994
>slavemaster

>I haven't actually read how a thrallherd works

>>55092432
>You just
>Your headcanon
>Your paranoia
>You just project
Got anything to say about the actual subject or is this just a waste of fucking time?

>>55092467
>The followers under my ironclad mental domination that I mentally kidnapped aren't my slaves
Hmm

>>55092508
>The followers under my ironclad mental domination that I mentally kidnapped aren't my slaves
>No, seriously, I have not read how a thrallherd works.

>>55092123
So what you're saying is you were annoyed that the free online version of the prestige class description didn't immediately make it clear to you that they aren't required to be slaving perverts, and you needed children's cartoon images to appease your sensibilities?

>>55092327
So how did it work out with all the different construct options as you get higher in levels?
Like did you end up assigning them to specialised groups based on stuff like movement and skill ability?

>>55092416
There is actually an undead leadership feat for 3.5 that you could probably adapt with undead cooperation, it basically just swaps out undead followers for normal ones.

>>55090769
It's not the most common, but it still seems to be a relevant amount. Mind controls hot, but like most things, it's important to understand it's not ALWAYS kinky unless you want it to be. It's why I think it's important to understand and think about it on a non-fetish level frequently as well. It just seems healthy to be "skeptical" even if there's a part of you that really enjoys it.

Did they say yes?
Only after you got them?
Can they say no?
No?
Slaves.
Don't matter if they was born with some silly slave handle in their head, they're slaves yo.
Man up, and remember to take care of your slaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-KUbflnMEs

PS, if that doesn't describe you, I'm not talking about you, dumb ass.

>>55092508
I'm directly rejecting you assumptions and asspull on the subject by actually referencing the the game mechanics and fluff and real life comparisons.
Of course it's a waste of time if you're just gonna go "nuh uh muh strawman is the only possible option"

>>55092634
>in a game where high enough CHA/diplomacy/bluff makes it numerically impossible to say no

>>55091772
Paladin's have an aura of fearlessness don't they? Fear is an important factor for self-preservation. By merely being in a Paladin of a certain levels presence they are likely to make people fight to their deaths.

And in some settings, paladins are literally powered by "The Greater Good".

But just ignore me, I just brought it up because I thought the "Paladin = Murderer" thing was funny.Don't do it to your players though, that's a douchebag thing to do.

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>>55092603

It's human to not like gross things.

>>55092416
>logistical powerhouse
It's great fun, and gives you something to do during downtime aside from boozing/whoring/spell research.
In-game it was fluffed as a new application of the astral construct power via making the characters mind a permanent conduit through to the plane to sustain it.
>>55092612
Believers were matching level constructs with half the hp per hit die and took time (started at an hour but level ups and campaign goals reduced it to minutes eventually) to create and had to have a specific form in mind. Very quickly got standardized to: the mannequin smooth ones are labor force/skilled via thoughts plucked out of my head or the astral, the jagged crystalline ones are combat models, everything else is a special custom build. I had half a dozen flash cards by the end that had the standard 'models' of construct that I used for believers just for quick reference and when in doubt they would react to a situation in the same manner as if my character was sleep-walking it.
Thralls though were the biggie. Fully built constructs of matching hit die that started with a single psicrystal ability tacked on to represent the splinter of my mind that it took to animate that amount of astral oomph, and eventually upgraded to just being a separate me via partitioned mind. Ranks in sculptor and day long crafting times to get them looking just right, etc. Being able to literally be in multiple places at once was a useful diplomatic trick a few times.

Once it was proven to be feasible (read, the character got a few levels in it without dying or having something from the astral rip its way outta of his forehead) there were overtures from local kingdoms and powers to be taught the method so that they could bolster their own work forces and military. On the same page though, I also had to fight off a few assassination attempts from unions and disgruntled mercenaries that didn't like the idea of a single person holding 400 peoples worth of labor/strategic value.

>>55092707
Yes, did I argue otherwise? Or did I say that slaves are bad?
If you have slaves, remember to take care of them. They're working hard for you, returning the favor with food, hygiene, and education is the least you can do, and will increase production so long as they can't rebel.
Man up, and take of your slaves.

>>55092768
>making the characters mind a permanent conduit through to the plane to sustain it.
Hoo, baby! I'd want a few layers of security on that door. Just imagine some old eldritch monster on the other side stumbling a weird hole in his infinite house, and it's filled with food!
Though, that desire is probably more of a side effect of growing up with a murder DM. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that asshole anymore.

>>55092612
>undead leadership feat for 3.5
I'll look it up. If it's Libris Mortis or BoVD, I have them laying about five feet from my desk.

>>55073206
mutants and masterminds, the one game thats actually just worse than D&D

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>>55093056

>>55092508
>>55092648
Actually, to be more specific, my reference to assassins that you ignored is especially significant.
Your strawman that no society would tolerate thrallherds, exclusively above and beyond all the other classes and murder hobos that manipulate people, because anyone anywhere could betray you for the thrallherd relies on ignoring the rules and comparable mundane manipulation. The thrallherd doesn't choose their believers and can't purposefully "convert" anyone they want. In a way they're worse off than mundane manipulators because it's luck/the will of the dm that decides who is a believer.
It's entirely up to the dm if the believers are the sad downtrodden outcasts abandoned by society or young warriors seeking adventure and you'd have actually be the dm to enforce your headcanon strawman that people flee fulfilling lives and powerful positions to the worry of all friends and family to join a dangerous and mysterious death spooky shadow-bo-bado cult.

>>55092981
>Libris Mortis
That's it iirc

>>55073038
>the fetish ERP clas
>98% of the time is shitty erotic fantasy
That's not an actual dynamic that happens, that's a meme. A /tg/ specific meme at that, it never gained traction on other roleplaying forums.

You've never actually had direct experience with anyone playing a thrallherd, you're basing your opinion entirely on /tg/ memes.

There's not much mechanical difference between thrallherds and what you can just order your cohorts and followers gained from taking Leadership (which is an admittedly broken feat)

I don't really see how it's any different than using magic to trick an enemy into killing his friends with confusion effects or illusions, dominate person spells, or just plain old murder through other magical means.

As far as the fetish shit goes
Shit tier: mindbreak, forced mental domination, rape
Alright to good tier: magically binding contractual service, indentured servitude, lost a bet
Great tier: willing absolute servitude

Ways to play a thrallherd that are not fapbait trash:

>>Overlord (game) style, where you are frontline armored combatant who uses minions purely for combat support, go where you can't, attack from multiple angles at once. View thralls as a valuable strategic resource and will put yourself at risk alongside them in combat, but may be willing to sacrifice them if it means victory.

>>Overlord (Skeletor Saves Anime) thralls are used as administrative aids and advisors, don't put them at personal risk if it can't be helped and willing to put yourself on the line rather than put them in harm's way. They manage day to day affairs while you go out adventuring, serve as buff-bots in camp, keep you informed and updated.

>>Supervillain style: Believere are your mooks, Thralls are your enforcers that carry out your will. You yourself never get involved unless absolutely required, instead trusting your lieutenants to act in your stead

>>55094929
>That's not an actual dynamic that happens
That's mostly correct, but technically wrong.
I've seen it. Once, and only once.
It was gross, we told the dude to stop, and he didn't want to, so now we don't play with him anymore.
That's it. No real problem, no real drama.
A tiny amount of anecdote isn't enough to say that it's the only possible outcome, or even a likely one.
/tg/'s just kind of a bitch, and obsessed with horror stories.

There's another question in all of this.

Let's say a great general has finally captured the enemy army that's invaded your kingdom. You have their commanders right in front of you. They've killed thousands, including the only legitimate heir to the throne.

You could wipe their memories and insert new ones - make them think they've been among your ranks all along - then do the same to their soldiers. Give them new civilian identities and everything. The original people might be gone, but those bodies, rather than being wasted, retain a purpose. The king could listen to you if you propose this, or he could listen to the calls of just about everyone else to execute the common soldiers and ransom the commanders.

The king considers himself to be a good man. Is he better for listening to you, or to anyone BUT you?