>Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, >Nine

Why do you think it's somehow a prophecy?

>>55070625
>I am an idiot
>the post

>>55070625
Why I get the feeling you're trying to start a new tax policy/eagles style meme?

>>55070680
Because /tg/ is /pol/ now.

>>55070697
No.

>>55070625
Because this wasn't prophecy it was descriptive poetry of history.

Now for the real question inquiring minds want to know: did Feanor do anything wrong?

>>55071012
Everything. He even wiped his ass with his tie and drunk soup through the nose.

>>55070625
Try reading the books..

>>55070625
The hobbits where not important.
That's the whole point. The unimportant person can save the world
>written by a ww1 veteran

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>>55070680

>>55071012
Not even poetry or history, but a statement of intent. "One Ring to rule them all, One ring to find them; One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them." is what is written on the ring, but requires the rest of the text to be understandable, so you can safely give authorship of it to Sauron.
Let's note that, while the unwritten part was accurate and repartition went as planned, what is written went completely wrong (or, at best, "worked from a certain point of view" if you say that men, elves and dwarves were bound together in the Shadow of Mordor in opposition to the Ring and Sauron ; but even then, no bearer of the Ring managed to locate more than one elven ring and none of the dwarven ones. Worked like a charm for the human ones, thought).

>>55071117
Didn't Sauron have a few of the Dwarven ones and offered them back as gifts?

>>55071117
I think you're forgetting that the One Ring was literally designed to mind-control other Ring Bearers. It didn't work on the Elves because they took their rings off when the One Ring was forged and didn't put them on again till Sauron was technically dead, and it didn't work on the Dwarves because... fuck it, I dunno Dwarves weren't made by Iluvater I guess?

>>55071226
I thought the elves ones were made outside of Sauron direct influence or something.

>>55071297
Yeah, Sauron didn't have a hand in the Three Rings used by the Elf Lords; that was all Celebrimbor. But the One Ring was made to work on all Rings of Power, probably because Sauron taught Celebrimbor how to make Rings of Power in the first place and just had the One Ring work on some backdoor unknowingly built into all of them

>>55071226
Essentially yes. Aule designed the Dwarves to be resistant to Morgoth style corruption. And while Sauron was unable to mentally control the Dwarves with the Rings the way that he did with the 9 guys who eventually became Nazgul, it did exacerbate their negative qualities and helped them build the hordes that Dragons would eventually come to plunder.

So it did work, just not fully as designed.

>>55071226
The Dwarves were resistant to magic in general. So while they couldn't be mind controlled, it did increase their greed exponentially and essentially drove them insane.

>>55071068
/thread

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>>55070697

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Post the poem in your language. I'll start:

Kolme sormusta haltiakuninkaille alla auringon,
seitsemän kääpiöruhtinaille kivisaleissaan,
yhdeksän ihmisille, jotka vie tuoni armoton,
yksi Mustalle Ruhtinaalle valtaistuimellaan,
maassa Mordorin joka varjojen saartama on.
Yksi sormus löytää heidät, se yksi heitä hallitsee,
se yksi heidät yöhön syöksee ja pimeyteen kahlitsee
maassa Mordorin joka varjojen saartama on.

>tfw eru is such a fag that his gift for his most beloved creation is death
wew

>>55071012
He done many thigns wrong, BUT the oath and saying fuck you to the valar was not one.
Fucking faggots, just remained idle in their thrones when morgoth murdered the king and stole the silmarils.

>>55072175
>but don't worry guys! Instead of spending eternity on the perfect paradise created by the valar like the perfect immortal elves, you get to spend it with me after your blink of an eye existence comes to an end!

An egotistical fag.

>>55070697
>Everything is /pol/
>T. Fag from leddit who's also shiting up /pol/
When I'll summer end anons, when will it end

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>>55072262
LoTR is pretty /pol/
>'Men of the West' take a final stand against (((sauron))) who seduced men with the promise of power
>have to defeat armies of arabs and sub-human orcs that talk in 'black speech'
>Theodin needs to be woken from Sarumans curse which makes him blind to the Urukai attacks

>>55072381
>>55072262
Fuck off both of you.

>>55072402
I found it hilarious. Just laugh at it, it's shitposting, you get mad they win
>inb4 trudeau memes

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Quick questions.

If the Nazgul were kings of men what Kingdoms did they rule? I assume Harad and the Easterlings are two of them?

Did all these Kings subjects join their Kings in following Sauron?

Is one of these Kings an ancestor of Aragon or Theoden?

Do they still rule their Kingdoms as vassals of Sauron?

>>55072381
Tolkein hated allegory, and any allegories you see are your own projections.

>>55072435
I always had the (false?) impression that middle Earth was strangely empty in term of population, towns or even villages.

Though to answer your question, they were human kingdoms in the North where some Nagul (most notably the Witch-king, from Arnor).

>>55072594
>Catalog
There has been plague or something at one point of history.

>>55072613
plague is called morgoth.

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>>55072427
Damn these were some spicy memes

>>55072435

>If the Nazgul were kings of men what Kingdoms did they rule? I assume Harad and the Easterlings are two of them?
There's no real reason to assume Harad or "The East" are unified political entities and not just geographic regions. It's like saying that someone is "King of Africa" or "Emperor of Asia".

>Is one of these Kings an ancestor of Aragon or Theoden?
Almost certainly not.

>Do they still rule their Kingdoms as vassals of Sauron?
Definitely not. They spend most of their time in Mordor proper, either performing or standing ready to do missions on behalf of Sauron.

>>55070625
>Why does the elvish prophecy state ownership of rings to dwarves and men?
Apart from the correct answer already given >>55071012
the thing about prophecy is that it foretells what will happen, which your other question already acknowledges.

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>>55071986
> पत्थर के अपने हॉल में बौने के लिए सात,
> नश्वर पुरुषों के लिए नौ मरने के लिए बर्बाद,
> अंधेरे प्रभु के लिए उसके गहरे सिंहासन पर
> मेर्डर की भूमि में जहां छाया झूठ बोलते हैं।
> उन सबको शासन करने के लिए एक अंगूठी, उन्हें खोजने के लिए एक अंगूठी,
> उन सभी को लाने के लिए एक अंगूठी और अंधेरे में उन्हें बाँध लें
> मेर्डर की भूमि में जहां छाया झूठ बोलते हैं

>>55073138
Holy shit it looks good

>>55073173
Nobody knows epics like the Hindus.

>>55071986
Trois Anneaux pour les rois elfes sous le ciel,
Sept pour les seigneurs nains dans leurs demeures de pierre,
Neuf pour les hommes mortels destinés au trépas,
Un pour le Seigneur des Ténèbres sur son sombre trône,
Au pays de Mordor où s'étendent les ombres
Un Anneau pour les gouverner tous
Un Anneau pour les trouver
Un Anneau pour les amener tous,
Et dans les ténèbres les lier
Au pays de Mordor où s'étendent les ombres.

>>55071986
>Drei Ringe den Elbenkönigen hoch im Licht,
Sieben den Zwergenherrschern in ihren Hallen aus Stein,
>Den Sterblichen, ewig dem Tode verfallen, neun,
>Einer dem dunklen Herrn auf dunklem Thron
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn.
>Einen Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
>Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn.

>>55071986
Trzy Pierścienie dla królów elfów pod otwartym niebem,
Siedem dla władców krasnali w ich kamiennych pałacach,
Dziewięć dla śmiertelników, ludzi śmierci podległych,
Jeden dla Władcy Ciemności na czarnym tronie
W Krainie Mordor, gdzie zaległy cienie,
Jeden, by wszystkimi rządzić, Jeden, by wszystkie odnaleźć,
Jeden, by wszystkie zgromadzić i w ciemności związać
W Krainie Mordor, gdzie zaległy cienie.

>>55073181
Well their religion pretty much invented the expression "over the top" so you're right I guess

>>55071986
Tpи кoльцa - для цapcтвeнных эльфoв в нeбecных шaтpaх,
Ceмь - для влacтитeлeй гнoмoв, гpaнильщикoв в кaмeннoм лoнe,
Дeвять - для Дeвятepых, oблeчeнных в мoгильный пpaх,
Oднo нaдeнeт Bлaдыкa нa чepнoм тpoнe
B cтpaнe пo имeни Mopдop, гдe pacпpocтepcя мpaк.
Oднo Кoльцo пoкopит их, oднo coбepeт их,
Oднo их пpитянeт и в чepнyю цeпь cкyeт их
B cтpaнe пo имeни Mopдop, гдe pacпpocтepcя мpaк.

>>55071117
That's an interesting theory. But how would Sauron's little bit of poetry make its way into the wider world of Middle-Earth?

I don't think it requires the rest of the rhyme to be understandable. It's the Ring to rule them all, regardless of who has the others. Which means the rest could have been written later, after the fates of the rings had already become known. An article I've read places the date of composition roughly around the founding of the Last Alliance, but considering it incorporates the inscription on the ring, I'd say it must have been after Isildur took it.

>>55071986
Tres Anillospara los ReyesElfosbajo el cielo.
Siete para los SeñoresEnanosen palacios de piedra.
Nueve para losHombresMortales condenados a morir.
Uno para el Señor Oscuro, sobre eltrono oscuro
en la Tierra deMordordonde se extienden las Sombras.
Un Anillo para gobernarlos a todos. Un Anillo para encontrarlos,
un Anillo para atraerlos a todos y atarlos en las tinieblas
en la Tierra de Mordor donde se extienden las Sombras.

>>55072243
You're forgetting the greatest gift of all. Not having to live forever alongside fucking elves.

>>55072820
Fine, but there should be some ACTUAL plague LOREFAGS HELpME I AM BULLIED REEEEEE

the nazgul have actual minds and serve willingly sauron or they are mere puppets with no mind of their own?

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>>55072435
The king of Angmar might have been implied to be either Numenorean or western Middle-man, and one of the Nine is Khamul the Easterling. All of the Nazgul are probably pre-numenorean colonization Middle-men, seeing as that was when their rings were distributed.

>>55071151
>>55071151
he had 3 and offered them to Dale, and 4 were eaten by dragons or dropped down a hole in moria or something.

>>55071151
He had all of the dwarven ones

That's where Thorin's father ended up, tortured for his ring in Dol Guldur

>>55071297
>>55071364
Yes, the Elves made their rings with their own hands and designed but the Rings of Men and Rings of Dwarves were partially made and designed by Sauron so they would eventually corrupt their wearers.

>>55072381

It is pretty /pol/ to be certain, but you have to remember, Tolkien was a product of his time, and like >>55072456 said, any allegory you see is unintentional.

>>55072262

I cannot, fucking, wait. These shits don't know to keep /pol/ in /pol/ and it's really starting to piss me off.

>>55070625
SLOW DOWN AND I SAIL ON THE RIVER
SLOW DOWN AND I WALK TO THE HILL

>>55074123
THERE ARE SIGNS ON THE RING
WHICH MAKES ME FEEL SO DOWN

>>55074537
There's one to enslave all rings
To find them all in time

>>55072175
>this faggot thinks the physical world is the highest possible plane of existence.

Material existentialism sucks, get woke.

>>55071986
Drie Ringen voor de elfenkoningen op aard',
Zeven voor de dwergvorsten in hun zalen schoon,
Negen voor de mensen, die de dood niet spaart,
Eén voor de Zwarte Heerser op zijn zwarte troon
In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn.
Eén Ring om allen te regeren, Eén Ring om hen te vinden,
Eén Ring die hen brengen zal en in duisternis binden,
In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn.

>>55074776
Only liberal hippies seek a higher plane of existence after taking like 7 grams of shrooms.

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>>55073638
>Bishie Sauron gets bishie Nazghul

I fucking love this faggot artist so much but have no idea what their name is, but that has to be from the bishie Sauron and Melkor person.

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>>55075080

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>>55075098

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>>55075122

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>>55075136

>>55075080
Why does Melkor have tits?

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>>55075204
That's Beren and Luthien and I'm not even sure from the same artist. It is just LotR cute shit hwich makes me immediately suspect them.

This is their Melkor being cute during that whole period after his first captivity but before he fucked everything up forever and ever amen.

>>55072594
Middle Earth wasn't like Valinor, the land of immortal beings. It was corrupted by Morgoth and over time everything there would decay, in a way. After thousands of years human and hobbit populations dwindled and elves started leaving for Vainor en masse after realizing that staying in Middle Earth too long made them start to fade away. That's when LOTR takes place. It actually is fairly empty.

>>55075328
It is still corrupted, parts of Morgoth's evil are inside everyone and everything in Arda.
Which is probably why the dagor daggorath was retconned, as it would have made as much sense for a man to kill Morgoth as the ring itself to slay Sauron.

>>55072435
I seem to remember reading somewhere that three of the nine were of Numenorean descent

>>55071986
Tre Anelli ai re degli Elfi sotto il cielo che risplende,
Sette ai Principi dei Nani nelle loro rocche di pietra
Nove agli Uomini Mortali che la triste morte attende,
Uno per l'Oscuro Sire chiuso nella reggia tetra
Nella Terra di Mordor, dove l'Ombra nera scende.
Un Anello per domarli, Un anello per trovarli,
Un Anello per ghermirli e nel buio incatenarli,
Nella Terra di Mordor, dove l'Ombra cupa scende.

“Drei Ringe den Elbenkönigen hoch im Licht,
Sieben den Zwergenherrschern in ihren Hallen aus Stein,
Den Sterblichen, ewig dem Tode verfallen, neun,
Einer dem Dunklen Herrn auf dunklem Thron
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn.
Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn”

>>55075381
Yeah, one of them is Talion from Shadow of Mordor :^)

>>55075753
But he was explicitly not numenorean, did you even listen to his talking with the wraith

>>55075852
Don't know, I got bored after killing 2 or 3 orc chieftains
I just heard my friend talking about it a bit

>>55071986
Kolm Sõrmust haldjahõimul sinitaeva all,
Seitse päkapikkudel maa külmis kivikambreis,
Üheksale ülemaks on sureliku vald,
Üks kuulub Isandale, kelle võim on kangeim
Maal, mil nimeks Mordor, musta Varju all.
Üks Sõrmus juhib neid, Üks leiab üles,
Üks Sõrmus toob nad kokku pimeduse süles
Maal, mil nimeks Mordor, musta Varju all.

>>55072435
There's at least 2 numenorean but not from earendil descendants. The bloodline of aragorn cannot be corrupted as it's stated by Tolkien in RotK

Not ancestors of theoden because the realm of Rohan was funded after the fall of sauron at the end of second age by eorl, and before were nomad barbarians without a kingdom.

Stop asking stupid and obvious questions, you can understand all this shit after just watching the fucking movies, you illiterate ape

>>55071986
Trí fháinne do ríthe na síogaithe thuas sa spéir,
seacht gcinn do tiarnaí na n-abhac ina gcuid hallaí cloiche,
naoi gcinn do dhaoine básmhaire atá faoi cháineadh an éag.
Fáinne amháin don tiarna dubh ar a ríchathaoir dhubh
i dtír Mordor a bhfagraíonn na scáileanna.
Fáinne amháin len iad a rialú,
fáinne amháin len iad a fháil,
fáinne amháin len iad a thabhairt,
fáinne amháin len iad a cheangal sa dorchadas
i dtír Mordor a bhfagraíonn na scáileanna.

Technically not my language because I'm from Northern Ireland but shh let me pretend my country has more going for it than crazy bomb-lobbing Christians

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>>55071986
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie

>>55075080
Artist is Phobs / melkorwashere.

>>55075328
Humans were the only ones who didn't fade from Middle-Earth because they were Eru's special project. (Also because the original idea was to have Middle-Earth be the ancient history of the real world, but that idea kind of got sidelined as Tolkien continued working on it.)

>>55071986
Shre nazg golugranu kilmi-nudu,
Ombi kuzd-durbagu gundum-ishi,
Nugu gurunkilu bard gurutu,
Ash burz-durbagu burzum-ishi,
Daghburz-ishi makha gulshu darulu.
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Daghburz-ishi makha gulshu darulu.

>>55074977
>Christianity is liberal hippies
Son, you just went full retard

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>>55076950
Thanks anon. Now I can properly sort my folder. And go find their tumblr or whatever and scoop the rest of their art.

>>55070625
>Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
>doomed to die
>doomed
>to die
Lmao stupid Elves, death was literally a gift Iluvatar made to Man after he made the Elves doomed to live forever.

>>55078662
Tolkien used doom as fated, which is accurate to its older usage.

>>55071012
The problem with Elves is that they're so stuck up they can't see past their nose.

Yes, Feanor, like many Elves, was a huge, insufferable faggot.

>>55072262
Kids have phones with internet today. They're going to destroy 4chan even in the middle of a class

>>55071986
Kek, it really seems like Elven language.
>>55078673
Nah, it's the usual stupid Elf who thinks he's better than everyone else.

>>55078662
>Lmao stupid Elves, death was literally a gift Iluvatar made to Man
I mean, yeah?

The elves tried to remind man of that, but many of them rejected those teachings becoming the Black Numenoreans. It's not like other fantasy settings like warhammer where elves often think they're better because of their immortality or long lives.

>>55071986
Tri Prstena za prste Kraljeva vilin-vrste pod nebesima što sjaju,
Sedam za vladare Patuljaka u dvoru njihovom kamnom,
Devet za Smrtne Ljude koje smrt čeka na kraju,
Jedan za Mračnog Gospodara na njegovom prijestolu tamnom
U Zemlji Mordor gdje Sjenke traju.
Jedan Prsten da svima gospodari, jedan za svima seže,
Jedan Prsten da sve okupi i u tami ih sveže.

>>55078884
>It's not like other fantasy settings like warhammer where elves often think they're better because of their immortality or long lives.

Did we read the same Silmarillion?
Now, I've read it long ago so I could be wrong but I think I remember how Elves looked down on Men.

>>55078946
Not him, but I think you're conflating two concepts. Elves did often look down on men (but not all of them, for example Finrod.), but not because they were short lived. Their disdain for Men usually was rooted in the similarities of Mannish thought to how Morgoth operated, which really has nothing to do with lifespan. I mean hell, Elves also look down on Orcs, who seem to be immortal, if not killed.

>>55078946
You mean the elves that welcomed humans with open arms, lived and fought happily side by side? Elves that had characters like Beleg Cuthalion? You can get an elf that dislikes humans, like Luthiens father, but this guy changed his mind as well.

>>55078969
I think Elves who didn't look down on Men were a rarity, it's obvious you're gonna read about many in the story.
From what I remember Elves didn't see death as a positive thing.
>>55078999
Read above.

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>>55071986
Três Anéis para os Reis-Elfos sob este céu,
Sete para os Senhores-Anões em seus rochosos corredores,
Nove para os Homens Mortais fadados ao eterno sono,
Um para o Senhor do Escuro em seu escuro trono
Na Terra de Mordor onde as Sombras se deitam.

Um Anel para a todos governar, Um Anel para encontrá-los,
Um Anel para a todos trazer e na escuridão aprisioná-los

Na Terra de Mordor onde as Sombras se deitam.

huehueheuheuheuheuheuheuheuheuheue

>>55079029
>I think Elves who didn't look down on Men were a rarity, it's obvious you're gonna read about many in the story.
Nah, it's somewhat 50-50ish. The Feanorian brood and the Sindarin tended to be a bit more dismissive, whereas the Fingolfin and his followers tended to be more accepting. Even so, both groups had their exceptions.

>From what I remember Elves didn't see death as a positive thing.
This, however, is just wrong. Remember, Elves don't die the way men do. I'm not even talking about the agelessness, when Elves die, their souls stay in Arda, and come under the control of Mandos the Valar. It's even possible for them to reincarnate.

Men die and their souls leave the world. It's a fundamentally different experience, and the Elven reaction to it is mostly awed non-comprehension.

>>55079029
Well, read my post again. Elves welcomed humans with open arms and allowed them to settle in their territory. Do you have any proof of them looking on them down? Because I don't remember any mention of this.

>>55079059
I'm running a LotR campaign and I have asshole elves interpret this as meaning men don't have real souls, making them little more than talking apes.

>>55079079
>>55079059
Honestly to debate you guys I would need to read the book again, I don't remember enough.

>>55078946
not exactly looked down
they had mixed feelings
some were envious of the humans, thus the scorn they had.
others saw them as children who needed a tutor to set them in the right path.

>>55079105
>>55079079
So the soul of man goes back to Iluvatar, or?

>>55071012
feanor was the biggest cunt ever

Eöl did nothing wrong

Wait, which one was Fingolfin again?

>>55079127
>cunt
>CUNT
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
fuck off vala bitch

>>55079107
Elves condescending towards humans is probably something that fans came up with because it just makes so much sense. Plus, if you aren't considering the literal history being referred to when Elrond criticizes men it can come off as asshole opinion. Also also, the Silmarillion is an in-universe elvish text and refers to *all* men besides the Edain as corrupt followers of Sauron. If we lived in that universe I'd be dubious about the bias on display.

>>55071986
>Septem pro Pumilionibus-dominis in eorum cameris lapidosis
>Novem pro mortalibus Hominibus moriendo damnatis,
>Unus pro Domino Obscuro in ejus solio obscuro
>In Terra Mordoris ubi Tenebrae manent.
>Unus Anulus omnes recturus, Unus Anulus eos inventurus
>Unus Anulus omnes capturus et in tenebras ligaturus
>In Terra Mordoris ubi Tenebrae manent.

>>55079141
the one who died in the hands of morgoth
truly it was suicide
he thought the noldor were no more thus he went full madman to battle morgoth even tough he knew only death awaits him

>>55079122
Nobody knows, actually. Even Mandos does not.
>>55079144
Meant followers of Morgoth, not Sauron.

>>55079105
>I'm running a LotR campaign and I have asshole elves interpret this as meaning men don't have real souls, making them little more than talking apes.

why even run an lotr campaign if you make lotr elves act like shitty modern fantasy elves?

>>55073351
It's not a theory it's what happened in the books you dipshit.

>>55079144
>Also also, the Silmarillion is an in-universe elvish text
You sure?
>>55079159
I thought the book said something about the destination of souls but I could be wrong, it's all vague.

>>55079172
There are five distinct subgroups of elves during my setting and individual opinions vary among, you know, individuals. I specificied "asshole elves", don't be a cunt.

>>55079211
Yes. The Appendices refer to it and Akallabeth as texts, I believe, in Elrond's library.
The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings exist as in-universe texts as well (Red Book of the Westmarch).

the idea that elves are arrogant dicks as a whole is based on nothing but bullshit.
The idea that elves are "perfect mary sue" race as a whole is also bullshit.

In the hobbit, LotR and silmarillon, elves could be noble and like humans, like the best friend of the mormegil guy, thalion I think was his name, or elves can just be huge cunts, like Feanor, who fucking murdered his fellow elves for their boats.

>>55070625
>MORE IMPORTANTLY: Why doesn't it state any ownership that the hobbits would hold, being that the most important?

No hobbit owned the ring. They held it, but it was such a part of Sauron (Or rather, Sauron was such a part of it) that they couldn't claim ownership. It was slowly turning them, as shown by their reluctance to get rid of it.

Also, what >>55071068 said

>>55079218
Sorry, but that idea is super stupid becasue the halls of mandos have a specific place where the souls of humans spend some time before going away to the great beyond, and coincidentally, the halls of mandos is also where the elves spend some time before coming back after being slain.

So elves know that humans have souls, they just don't know where the souls end up after death.

>>55079266
the silmarils are important anon

>>55079296
>citing knowledge only portrayed as available to the Wise in Imladris
>your average silvan elf has any concrete knowledge of Mandos beyond Ñoldor rumors
No, you are the stupid.

>>55079238
Technically it's Bilbo's translation of "Elvish legends of the Elder Days". I'm not sure if they were written down or compiled in a single text like the Quenta.

>>55079358
Nah, I just barely read the Appendices and the Silmarillion is even namechecked.
Unless you're referring to the Red Book, which is definitely legit and was left in Sam's care when Frodo departed the Havens.

>>55079332
>>your average silvan elf
the "average" silvan elf is ruled by someone who is either a maiar, or descendent of maiar. And they share knowledge, there's no "hick" elf unless he was raised away from the elven society, like maedhros.
also, ALL elves go to the palace of mandos after death. And they can come back to middle earth if they wish. So there's likely a few silvan elves who have died and come back in the thousands of years of the second and third ages.

>>55072456
>what is Death of the Author?

>>55079381
>the "average" silvan elf is ruled by someone who is either a maiar, or descendent of maiar.
meant "was" ruled.
silvan elves are the elves that were going alongside the light elves to valinor but stopped along the way because their king got madly in love with a maiar. Because of that, they are almost as enlightened as the elves that got to see the lights of the trees.

>>55079381
You don't know what you're talking about (Glorfindel is explicitly the only elf to return to Middle-Earth after death) and you have no knowledge of the necessary invented nuances of my setting. When randos like Eöl can be crazy rapist hobos, one or two elven supremacists is a perfectly reasonable thing to expect. I hope your ignorant criticism have levelled up your e-peen at least.
>silvan elves are common elves east of the Hithaeglir
>only collect as a culture in the Second Age
>Melian is long gone
>in fact, their kings are Amdir and Oropher, two Sindar elves
>I'm sorry you're stupid

>>55079406
Holy shit just start browsing the wikis until you realize how wrong you are, retard. I'm out.

>>55079380
But that's what the Silm is; it's a sub-section of the Red book, as stated in the intro to Fellowship.

Elvens hated humans cause unlike humans, at the end of the world they wont will be able to go to the great beyond and will perish with everything that isnt human.

>>55079449
I just made a typo on the second post, it was meant to say "sindar". Sindar rule both silvan kingdoms during the third age. And those guys were ruled by a Maiar before she left.

>Glorfindel is explicitly the only elf to return to Middle-Earth after death
and yet fucking bilbo was writing about the halls of mandos in his little red book, so they have knowledge from there somehow.

Assuming that a hobbit is somehow more knowledgeable about the world then any elf is ridiculous.
elven supremacists if fine, but any elf thinking humans have no souls is silly.

>>55079538
Give a source for that.

>>55079486
Oh, that makes sense. My mistake then.

>>55072953
>Elf-Right

My fucking sides.

>>55079547
Uh, probably from Glorfindel.

>>55079555
silmarillion, i dont remember which chapter.

>>55079547
>>55079584
The Ñoldor know from Aman itself. Anyway, I didn't make a typo (that is, I meant silvan) so your criticism is defunct anyhow. Why can't there be ignorant elves?

>>55079593
Awesome, great source, though I read that as well and never got the impression that hating humans is widespread.

>>55079614
As I said in a previous post, I think the vibe is generated by the Edain. When the elves have picked three families as credits to their kind, it sort of implies a general disdain otherwise.

>>55079614
not exactly hate, but there were some elvens that were a bit hurt by it, not that they were majority though.

>>55079608
unless they never got introduced to elven society, they would know that kind of stuff mate

>>55079331
>artifact
>important
Pick one.

>>55079666
Says you. This must be the origin of "Tolkien elves are lame because they're all so perfect" nonsense. All it takes is a minute degree of imagination to generate dozens of competing elf religious perspectives.
>sure, the Ñoldor say Men go to Mandos but they're all Kin-slayers so fuck them
>everyone knows the one true goddess is Melian
>my grandpa's soul has lingered in our pantry for the past two centuries, I ain't ever seen a man spirit do that
Pleb.
>checked nonetheless

>>55079681
the silmarils are waaaaaaaaaaay more than artifacts.
they are light, they are the concept of good, they cast the darkness away, one could say they are the physical form of Ëru

>>55079734
>physical form of Eru
One could say that but they'd be fucking wrong.

>>55078999
I don't think Thingol even hated specifically humans, he was opposed to almost anyone from outside Doriath, and Beren was keen on his daughter, to boot.

>>55079538
Oh, right, that's how it was, just like with the second coming of Christ.
>>55079734
Nah.

>>55071986
Tre ringar för älvkungarnas makt högt i det blå,
sju för dvärgarnas furstar i salarna av sten,
nio för de dödliga som köttets väg ska gå,
en för Mörkrets herre i ondskans dunkla sken
i Mordorslandets hisnande gruva.
En ring att sämja dem,
en ring att främja dem,
en ring att djupt i mörkrets vida riken tämja dem -
i Mordors land, där skuggorna ruva

>>55079703
no, I said it's fine to have elve supremacy but not to have them believe men have no souls

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>>55073472
My nigga

>>55079804
Which is why I specified "real souls". As in "niggers don't have real intelligence". People move the goalposts all the time when they're discriminating against the Other.

On the topic of mortality in LotR, I remember being told how mortal races suffer when they live longer than they were meant, much like Bilbo Baggings when he described the ring as being like too little butter spread across too much toast.

Is it ever specified why the Elves are not affected by this? Or rather, why they were meant to be immortal if mortality was supposed to be a gift for man?

>>55079835
They are in Endor but not in Aman.

>>55079769
>nah
The silmarils were the embodiment of perfection, as i said they casted away the darkness, they were used to put an end to the eternal night, now tell me if there's something who is the embodiment of Eru how is it not the silmarils?

>>55079835
because fuck elves

>>55079835
As for your second question, immortal Children were part of the First Theme of the Ainur, when Eru thought Ëa would be perfect. Then he noticed Melkor was gonna be a little bitch about not getting more lines so he edited in Children that could make their own fate beyond the Powers and also die so their capacity for atrocity and suffering would be curtailed.

>>55079845
Nothing is the embodiment of Eru. They're just the greatest repositories of holy light.

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What is your favourite scene in the Silmarillion?

Mine's when the elves awaken at Cuivienen under the stars. Oh, and obvioulsy when Turin fucks Nienor, that's a given.

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>>55079884
The usual.

>>55079863
That makes sense, regarding the gift of mortality. >>55079838 confuses me though. So they're immortal in Middle Earth but not in Aman, but they tried to guide the elves to Aman originally?

>>55079835
Elves were the first pefect "imperfect" creation, humans were the second imperfect "perfect" one.

>>55079834
well fine, I missed that "real" part.

>>55079895
They will eventually fade (physically die) in Middle-Earth. They're fully, blissfully immortal in Aman. They probably could have been immortal in Middle-Earth but the Ñoldor were cursed to suffer by Mandos and the rest of the elves were tricked into tying their fates into that of the rings of power.

>>55079884
The one where Luthien tries to persuade Beren to go back home to Doriath, and she thinks she can persuade her father to relent and allow him in, but he's committed to finishing his quest.

>>55079895
Not him, but Elves are immortal wherever they are. Men and men variants (like hobbits) are not; and going to Aman won't change that. (Frodo, Bilbo, Sam all die in the Blessed Realm).

But that same immortality is a weariness in the wider world but less so in Aman, where things change little, if at all.

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>>55079884
Someone already beat me to it.

>>55079916
Fine. I probably shouldn't have gotten so defensive but being criticized while you made errors about lore triggered me but it's your right to think it's stupid regardless.

>>55079895
>So they're immortal in Middle Earth but not in Aman, but they tried to guide the elves to Aman originally?
because fuck elves

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>>55075378
>it would have made as much sense for a man to kill Morgoth as the ring itself to slay Sauron

That's a wildly illogical comparison. Morgoth did not create men, nor was he able to pour his will or malice into their creation during the Third Theme. Sure, he put a shadow on the hearts of some men in the elder days, but that's incomparable to Sauron forging The Ring, and making of it an extension of himself and a focal point of his essence.

>>55079931
>>55079890
What's this? Melkor vs?

>>55079929
>Frodo, Bilbo, Sam (and Gimli) all die in the Blessed Realm
That's never canonically stated.

>>55075280
...wait, what spot?
Thought his last dick move was the lamps and the gems and the dead elf king?

>>55075381
You probably read it in the Silmarilion. That's where I just read it.

>>55079953
Nolofinwë, best elf.

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>>55079953
Who the fuck do you think?

>>55079953
fingolfin

>>55079962
He begins Dagor Dagorlad by murdering the Sun and the Moon.

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>>55079976

Question: why do so many artists draw Fingolfin with blonde hair?

>>55079986
>>55079976
Wasn't Fingolfin fighting on a mountain pass?
>>55080003
Because Elves are all blonde, duh.

>>55073138
What the fuck is this?
Gilgamesh?

>>55079975
>best elf
>not cacame

>>55080015
>disdainforplebs.jpg

>>55079954
Alkallabeth and Letter 246 both state otherwise.

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf

>Alas! There are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) - not in Middle-Earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him- if that could be done, before he died.
The last 3 words are italicized in the original.

>He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time.

http://english4success.ru/Upload/books/473.pdf (Page 343-344)

>And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceites and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.

>>55080022
In this setting then.
>still, I never saw Cacame hobble the Demourge

>>55080027
Oh! Thank you for correcting me.

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He did nothing wrong and is still doing nothing wrong.

>>55080019
Nah, blue skin makes me think its some kind of Hindu thing

>>55080061
You're right. He kept the location of the Three a secret and is resting in Mandos.

>>55079389
Bullshit that self-important grad students who eventually became self-important professors came up with to always be right and not have to actually bother with the hard work of academia.

>>55079584
Glorfindel was a fucking mistake.

>>55079991
>>55079976
wew
you sure are a fan of BD

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>>55080087
What did you say you little bitch?

>>55080066
> Gilgamesh
> not Hindu
... are you trolling me or...

>>55080106
Should have sent a trio of bears instead of a balrog.

>>55080114
Or you're stupid? Yes.

>>55080115
What?

>>55080077
Please don't hit me

But I believe the games are canon and what he does in Shadow of War and Mordor will make the games worth it.

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Who is the swaggest motherfucker and why is it Earendil?

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>>55080077
But his son a shit, though, wherever he is.

>>55080149
If you were physically present, I'd hit you.
>it's by definition not canon if Tolkien didn't write it
>you're free to like fanfiction but
>REEEEEE

>>55080139
Glorfindel, quite literally translated, means "Goldilocks"

>>55080106
His inclusion in the story sounds like an OC DONUT STEEL fan insert.
Why is he magically the only elf to come back?
And if there is some super special reason, why is he barely mentioned I the three main books?
It's like Tolken made a name slip up, and instead of being like 'shit, let me re name a character', he got all butt hurt and defensive- " NO THAT'S ALL INTENTION I SWEAR".
Of course I don't know if that's his fault, or his sons.

>>55080114
>Gilgamesh
>Hindu

>>55079845
>they were used to put an end to the eternal night

No they weren't. The last fruits/flowers of Telperion and Laurelin were made into the sun and the moon, which ended the eternal night for middle-earth. Even if you mean before the sun and the moon, it was the twin trees themselves that gave the light. The Silmarils simply captured a great store of that purest light before the treed were drank dry by Ungoliant.

The only Silmaril whose light is seen above the world is that of the one upon Earendil's brow, which is sometimes seen in the morning sky beneath the sun, indicative of that Mariner's voyage through the blackness beyond middle earth.

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>>55080174
Oh.

>>55080168
I mean, the Tolkien Estate can cry all they want, but WB runs it now. Tolkein made it so that it is a setting anyone can really play with, so as much as I hate to admit it, it's canon.

On the other hand, the games are fun

>>55080177
It was definitely intentional, and it fulfills the potential implied by elves being reembodied. Sure, he's exceptional but that's why he's used sparingly.

>>55071986
Not mine, but nobody else is gonna do it.

Óoxp'éel anillos ti' le Reyes elfos yáanal le ka'ano', siete utia'al le máako'obo' enanos ti' u pasillos tuunich, nueve utia'al xiibo'obo' mortales condenados kíimil, juntúule' utia'al le máako' éek'joch'e'en ti' u trono éek'joch'e'en, tu lu'umil Mordor tu'ux le sombras p'atalo'ob. Jump'éel ts'ipit k'ab utia'al gobernar le ti' tuláakal, jump'éel ts'ipit k'ab utia'al u kaxtik le, jump'éel ts'ipit k'ab yo'osal taasik le tuláakal yéetel ti' le ak'abo' atar le, tu lu'umil Mordor tu'ux le sombras p'atalo'ob.

>>55080203
>it's canon
>because of adaptational rights
Kid, nothing but Tolkien's texts will ever be considered canon by anybody who isn't a maximum pleb. Look up the definition of canon and accept you're enjoying some scrub-tier, albeit fun, fanfiction.

>>55080244
Fine, I'll admit it's fanfiction. But it's art, gameplay and voice acting is top-tier. I shamelessly pre-ordered it because I really do enjoy the games.

>>55080289
I preordered it too, Anon.

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>>55080307

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>>55080327
All is forgiven.

>>55079950
As long as there are men (or anything), he cannot die. Or whatever death is for immortal beings that are alive even when you kill them anyways.

>>55080242
Is that some creole gibberish?

Gem ruthukhmuzûm khuthûzhmulhûkh undu mingal,
Hadud khazâdzubûdul ni aban-dumizd,
Tegur amradulûnh kigh maradî,
Ze dushelzabadul ayazabadogimhu.
Ni Nargûnzdin, uznîn binaganagî.
Ze ruthukhmizim nazurîzdel,
Ze ruthukhmizim umkhûhîzd,
Ze ruthukhmizim tashfabîzdel ra ni narag balhîzd
Ni Nargûnzdin, uznîn binaganagî.

Tolkien's dwarvish is harder for me to parse than his Black Speech

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>>55080327
>>55080333

>>55080114
>Uruk, Mesopotamia
>anywhere near the Indus River Valley

>>55080399
Far be it from me to criticize Tolkien's linguistic skills, but isn't that because Khuzdul is barely the skeleton of a language. How many did he actually, nigh-fully make?
>Quenya
>Sindarin
>some Khuzdul words
>some Adunaic words
>a single poem in Black Speech
>like, some Westron names
Have I forgotten anything?

Why was Gollum able to resist the ring's overwhelming desire to be brought back to Mordor?

>>55080439
Either
>hobbits have extremely good saves against mind-control
or
>the Ring did not recognize Sauron's location until he arose in Dol Guldur, which is when it decided to give Bilbo a try
Probably both.

>>55079845
They captured the light of the two trees, made by...Yavanna? Nienor?
They didn't cast away darkness at all.

>>55080439
Because the Ring is not all powerful. It couldn't make Frodo walk up to the Nazgul and surrender, even if it could plant the urge to do so in him.

>>55080474
Not Nienor, that was Turins sister. I can't remember the name of the Vala I'm thinking of.

>>55080380
According to my sources, it's modern Yucatec Maya. Which is odd.

>>55080289
Bleargh.

>>55079884
The one where Sauron gets his shit wrecked by a dog.

>>55070625
Do any of the Tolkien lore actually cover what the other races did with their rings?

>>55080731
Acquire gold and become sorcerers mostly.

>>55080492
Is it Varda?

>>55080371
Source for him not dying?
Additionally, I don't quite see how that still applies. Morgoth would still be Morgoth even if men are no more. Sauron, however, was destroked wholly when the ring was no more.

>>55080474
Yavana

>>55080492
Nienna is the Vala of CEASELESS WEEPING and other sad things

>>55080439
Because of who Gollum is related to

Read the books

>>55073351

When Sauron put on the One Ring for the first time, Celebrimbor and the others heard his incantation. That's how the ring inscription is so widely known. It's also how they knew to take their Rings off.

So Sauron's initial plan failed. He couldn't take control of the remaining Noldor. Had he waited, let them use their Rings for a few centuries, then they might still have eluded his control, but everything that the other Rings had had a part in accomplishing would have come under Sauron's control.

At this point, Sauron declared war on Eregion. He won, and managed to seize sixteen of the nineteen Rings of Power when he sacked it. The three elven rings were smuggled out in time and kept safe and unused for millennia. Sauron never got them and had never had a direct hand in their making (other hand providing Celebrimbor with the lore of how to make them).

The ones he took, he managed to corrupt. Some or all of those things he might have had a hand in making (under his guide as Annatar) but all these things he now held outright. He gave these to dwarves and men who he wished to corrupt and control. Dwarves were designed to resist direct control, so the rings could only enhance their own natural bad traits.

Presumably, at some point after Sauron regifted the rings, someone composed the rest of the ring poem. Notice how the part Sauron composed (written on the Ring itself) is set off from the rest of the text.

So the poem had to have been written after the fall of Eregion, but could have been written at any point after that.

>>55073557

Neither. Their minds and wills were twisted into Sauron's control. The Rings corrupted them, rather than merely controlling their bodies.

>>55073638

Other than the Witch King of Angmar, none of the other Ringwraiths are named in the legendarium. The names often listed come from licensed properties like GW or the rpg.

>>55082388
Khamul is named in The Hunt For the Ring, in Unfinished Tales, and in fact is the only one for whom there's a "real" name. "Witch King of Angmar" is, after all, a title.

>>55081509
>Sauron, however, was destroked wholly when the ring was no more.
I think Gandalf says in RotK that Sauron becomes just a shadow of malice without the One Ring, so, he doesn't fully die.

>>55079389
I mean, Death of the Author is fine and all that, but invoking it means accepting that any allegories that you see are your own projections.

>>55079884
Dwarves in war masks beating the shit out of a dragon. Fucking hell, lotr dwarves are rad as hell, i wish we got to see more of them than gimli and his kin.

>>55080731
Fuck you, i'm a magic king now, and fuck you, its my gold.

>>55084297
That was the only cool thing they ever did.

>>55079389
Literally a recognition that your interpretation of a work has absolutely nothing to do with the author's intent and is most frequently your own head canon?

Did you think? Of course you didn't, you're spouting thought-bite memes comprised of simplistic misinterpretations of complex thoughts the simplistic misinterpretations of which you cannot even grasp completely.

>>55070625
>Didn't the elves make ALL the rings just for themselves?
No.

>Why does the elvish prophecy state ownership of rings to dwarves and men?
There's no prophecy.

>Why doesn't it state any ownership that the hobbits would hold
Hobbits are Men.

>>55078931
Nedostaju mi dani kad su prevođenje radili profesionalci.

>>55074685
And bind them into darkness

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>>55080086

Exactly fucking this. "Death of the Author" is a bullshit excuse, and helps them misconstrue anything written by a person in whatever way they want. They're the sort of cunts that say "oh well I read it like this, so this is what it actually means" instead of listening when the author goes "no, you're wrong".

>>55085923
>I can't sort literature into formally correct little folders and this triggers my autism
Death of the author is one of the best things to ever happen to literary academia.

>>55084297
>dwarves
>cool
I believe no one would ever complain if suddely dwarves disappeared from all fantasy.

>>55077279
This board is for Free Peoples only, shitblood.

>>55086348
Don't get into gambling.

>>55086601
>t. dwarf

>>55079177
>It's not a theory it's what happened in the books you dipshit.
Nah tho

>>55082353
>When Sauron put on the One Ring for the first time, Celebrimbor and the others heard his incantation. That's how the ring inscription is so widely known. It's also how they knew to take their Rings off.
Ah, that makes sense. I knew they sensed Sauron's ploy somehow but I didn't know that's what it was. If that's the case then the founding of the Last Alliance seems like a plausible occasion for the composition of the poem.

>>55073138
>Suffer no Vilebloods to live

>>55073655
Wait Wutt?

>>55086204
That's a good joke. It's like saying leukemia is one of the best things that ever happened to cancer.

>>55079771
hejsan svejsan (^:
vet du vem det va som fick min isp bannad från 4chan i typ två månader?

>>55087818
Jaevla svensk

>>55087818
Haha nog jag

t. även svensk

>>55080439

Gandalf himself explained that when Sauron took form again, the Ring awoke.

>>55080003

Because fingolfin had blonde hair. His mom was one of the vanyar.

>>55082461
He's an angel, he can't fully die. But he withers away to almost nothing. Ghost of a shadow, a breath of malice on the wind, etc.

>>55079331
Of course they are.
Know what's more important, though?
NOT MAKING SHITTY FUCKING ROCKS OUT OF AN IMPORTANT PART OF ARDA JUST FOR THE SAKE OF PRETTY PRETTY SHINY SHINY

>>55082439

Dammit, I hate getting pwned on middle Earth lore, but of course you're right.

>>55086204
>Greentext has fuck-all to do with the post he's replying to
>still thinks this constitutes victory
I forget, am I supposed to say I miss quest threads at this point, or do I just blame reddit?

>>55088851
What's your logic? They contain the light of the trees, there barely anything more godly in arda than the valar themselves.

>>55088619
One of the wikis cites this (J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Peoples of Middle-earth, "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", p. 336) as evidence Fingolfin has dark hair but I don't own that text so I can't prove it.
Hey, when are volumes 6-10 of the Histories of Middle-earth going to become widely available?

>>55088619
That was Finarfin. Fingolfin was black like the other Noldor.

>>55080066
It's the famous scene of the Bhagavad Gita, the most important part of the great Hindu epic the Mahabharata, wherein Krishna explains to Arjuna various theological principles of the universe and reveals his true form as the totality of the universe.

>>55091944
"Death, destroyer of worlds"?

>>55088945
Maybe stop projecting and take your pills.

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Bumping with a meme list

>Vanyar Pros
Ubermenschen, basically every elf is like a Matrix character on top of all the other perks of being an elf
100% of population resides in Valinor
>Vanyar Cons
Can't interact with Middle Earth without Valar approval
I hope you like Barbie-blonde hair, motherfucker

>Noldor Pros
Can craft shit on par with dwarves
Have the deepest knowledge of any people
Pretty much the best people on Middle Earth
Lesser superpowers, especially among royalty
One of them cockslapped Morgoth and almost got away with it
>Noldor Cons
Got exiled to Middle Earth
Covetous and prideful, like dwarves
Like mines and mountains, like dwarves
Victims of coastal erosion
One of them got manipulated into making rings of power
Another of them started a war over jewelry, which he originally made because he got cucked by his niece out of some hair. Hair which she later gave to a fucking dwarf
Two of the sons of that one became the only elf suicides ever
You're gonna be a brunette and you're gonna like it, faggot

>Teleri Pros
Numerous
More rugged than Noldor, at least by the 3rd Age
Good at making boats and navigating woodlands
Not like dwarves
That wine game ridiculous
One of them grew a motherfucking beard
Lots of hair colors to choose from
>Teleri Cons
Many of them are descendants of elves that were too stupid/scared to travel to Valinor
No superpowers beyond normal elf abilities
One of their cities got fucked over by the Noldor
The name "Teleri" is a derisive nickname created by the Noldor
Have elf racism between Sindar and Sylvan, despite both being Teleri

>Avari Pros
Kek
>Avari Cons
Nigga you dumb as hell
No one can understand your languages.

>>55095421
Whoa, faggot, you better get back to work.
>Avari
>not diversifying Sindar, Nandor, Silvan, Laiquendi, the elves of Cuivenen
Seriously.

>>55088851
>NOT MAKING SHITTY FUCKING ROCKS OUT OF AN IMPORTANT PART OF ARDA JUST FOR THE SAKE OF PRETTY PRETTY SHINY SHINY

Silly anon, he did it to assuage the buttpain of being denied that sweet sweet Galadriel hair.

>>55095805
>distinguish between a bunch of irrelevant Teleri offshoots

lel. If you care bout that shit, do it yourself.

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>>55079389
Narcissistic solipsism invented by inept authors who have never created anything of worth, and so compensate by stealing the meaning of literature from its creators and forcing undergraduates to parrot their "theories" while professing that only your own interpretation matters.

>>55079835
>if they live longer than they are meant to
>were specifically meant to be immortal.

There's no reason for an elf to feel that way, their life can't be artifically extended, nor were they made for another world. Elves are meant to live in Arda forever, humans are not.

>>55084958
They murderstomped the orcs at Azanulbizar so hard it depopulated the Misty Mountains.

>>55073138
>literally the black speech script too

>>55071986
In Korean
하늘 아래 요정왕들을 위한 세 반지,
돌의 궁전 속 난쟁이 군주들을 위한 일곱 반지,
죽을 운명의 인간들을 위한 아홉 반지,
암흑권좌의 암흑군주를 위한 절대 반지,
그림자가 드리운 모르도르의 땅에서
모두를 지배하는 절대 반지, 모두를 찾아낼 절대 반지
모두를 불러낼 절대 반지, 그리고 암흑 속에서 그들을 속박하리니
그림자가 드리운 모르도르의 땅에서.

>>55095421
So the takeaway of this is that noldor are like dwarves?

>>55080437
He reconstructed some historic rl languages, too. Like the gothic languages. He even held lessons in gothic.

>>55101939
Yeah, the similarities (and friendship) between Noldor and the dwarves are widely acknowledged and commented on.

>>55084958
They made Narsil. Taught the elves in beleriand to smith. Made things fortress. Saved the collective asses of eredain and elves in the first age. Twice.
Just to name stuff from the first age.

>>55102295
Meant Thingol's fortress.

>>55088633
He's still alive though. Powerless, but alive.

>>55096669
We know you're a little kid buttblasted about a bad grade, you don't have to repeat yourself.

>>55102650
Sorry dude, it's very easy to ape death of the author non-scholarship, but it's just that - not scholarly.

>>55071986
Három Gyűrű ragyogjon a tünde-királyok kezén,
Hét a nemes törpök jussa, kiknek háza cifra kő,
Kilencet halandó ember ujján csillantson a fény,
Egyet hordjon a Sötét Úr, szolganyájat terelő,
Mordor éjfekete földjén, sűrű árnyak mezején.
Egy Gyűrű mind fölött, Egy Gyűrű kegyetlen,
Egy a sötétbe zár, bilincs az Egyetlen,
Mordor éjfeket földjén, sűrű árnyak mezején.

>>55070625
>>Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
>>Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
Aren't dwarves also doomed to die?

>>55080177
He ran years and years of military campaigns against Angmar and its satellite powers and was originally sent with the blue wizards to fuck shit up for sauron's wanna-be successors in the early to mid third age. He was the one that pronounced the prophecy about the witch king.

Essentially, he had been sent back as a fixer fro certain issues Manwe wanted solved, but had a limited mission purview he was bound to follow.

>>55080177
M8 Tolkien revised the story so many times it's ridiculous.

>>55103685
Yeah, but it's not what they're known for, you know? Men are the ones for whom the entire concept of death was invented for.

>>55102295
>Saved the collective asses of eredain and elves in the first age. Twice.
Once from Glaurung, aaaand?

>>55104310
Can you even count that? Nirneath Arnoediad pretty much wrecked the Noldor as it was. I doubt Glaurung could have done that much more, especially since he was on the eastern "front", and the text pretty heavily implies that Morgoth let the Feanorians stick around so they could continue to do Oath induced stupidity, a la the third Kinslaying and the whole mess they made in Nargothrond

>>55103220
In a field that still takes Freud seriously yes, acknowledging that no two humans are the same and consequently no two interpretations of an art piece are the same is good scholarship.

>>55102037
wow
really makes you think

>>55070697
Now?

>>55073699
Lol, if only you knew the horrors to come in the endless summer. Summer of 2016 never ended, m8. These are the same newfags, finally grown up and able to post with out getting b&. The summer will never end, because they are no longer bound by summer.

Also something something Trump

>>55104498
There has been plenty of good scholarship on the artistic 'Aura' and on author's intent. 'Death of the Author' is a meaningless and lazy concept that exists only to:
A) excuse the scholar from trying to understand the author and their intent
And
B)Allow the scholar to apply whatever half-baked meaning they wish to a work without any recourse or objective measure.

I'll admit that analysis of a manuscript can (and should) go beyond just the author's intent, since everyone has unconscious expressions they might not recognize BUT the author's intent should never be ignored or pushed to the side lines.

>>55075474
Madonna, came here to post this.

>>55105669
Not the guy you're responding to, but

>the author's intent should never be ignored or pushed to the side lines.

Opens up a colossal can of worms, especially when the author is anonymous, disputed, or it is impossible to reconstruct the author's intent. You can also get weird edge cases, such as the author publicly stating an interpretation that runs counter to the plain meaning of the text.

>>55105791
>such as the author publicly stating an interpretation that runs counter to the plain meaning of the text

Then you go with what he says. Unless he's trying to ruse/troll you, like Alan Moore.

>>55105791
English teacher here.

The only can of worms it opens is how well you understand the available context and the grammar of English. Simply disregarding intent is to ignore the text.

>it is impossible to reconstruct the author's intent.
Give me one example. Curious way to put it.

>>55109900
I won't state this as a general rule, because this is a fairly uncommon situation to begin with, but the author should probably have a good justification for trying to contradict the original work, or most people are liable to disregard him on the matter (and even then, some people will continue to do so).

In Armenian
Երեք օղակները կախովի մեջ արեւի տակ,
Քարե պատի մեջ յոթ գաճաճ նարնջեր,
Ինը հոգու համար, ովքեր բերում են իմ անձնազոհ,
Մեկը սեւ արքայի համար իր գահին,
Երկրում, որտեղ Մորդորը ստվերում է:
Մեկ օղակը գտնում է նրանց, մեկը գերակայում է նրանց,
Նրանցից մեկը գիշերը ընկնում է եւ խավարում է
Երկրում, որտեղ Մորդորը ստվերում է:

>>55110003

> Simply disregarding intent is to ignore the text.
So what? Any anonymous text cannot be fully interpreted? How the fuck does that make sense?

>Give me one example. Curious way to put it.
You ever study the Theogyny by Hesiod? Put simply, we have a number of manuscripts, none of which read exactly the same and giving different details of the same general theme, namely the geneology of the Greek deities and a foundation of that religious cosmology. We thus have multiple competing texts, and only one (if any of them) is what the "real" Hesiod intended. You cannot really determine which is more accurate to Hesiod's intent, because the only way to measure his intent is to look at a version of the Theogyny and try to reconstruct it from that, given the paucity of other sources to compare against. In this instance, it's more accurate to say that you cannot actually determine Hesiod's intent, and trying to suggest a better reading of the Theogyny based on Hesiod's wishes is doomed to failure.

>>55115031
>So what?
Well, it's kind of important to consider the reason for the text's construction.
>How the fuck does that make sense?
I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I thought we were talking about authorial intent? Interpreting a text doesn't require any knowledge about the author.

>Measuring intent
You measure intent by reading the text. The words in a book, Hesiod's or otherwise, are there intentionally. The meanings they produce are intentional. The way they are constructed are intentional. You can gauge authorial intent just by reading a text.

You aren't really talking about authorial intent in your example, you're talking about which set of texts is the real one.

>>55105465
>lol
Lurk more.

>>55104310
And when beleriand went under. They saved a shit ton of people because dorfs need a lot less rest.

>>55104349
The dorfs kept an entire front from crumbling and the fleeing soldiers from getting cut down. Of course you can count that. That the Noldor did not learn from the battle is another thing unrelated to the dorfs.

>>55117612
Is that an explicit thing? It's the first time I hear of it.