Do you prefer your bird-people in fantasy settings to have arm-wings

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Arm-wings.
Angry raptor people are the shit

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Head wings!

Irrelevant

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The bird people in my setting come in two types. Arm-wings, and no wings period. The ones without wings are treated as an inferior/disabled race by the ones who can fly.

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>>54990136
What about winged heads?

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>>54990026
The ones in my setting have arm-wings. They also walk around bottomless because they don't have external genitals, just feathery crotch tufts. Unnecessary clothing would just be extra weight in the air. That is the excuse I am using.

>>54990026
Arm wings make bit more sense unless they are purely gliders relying on massive wings that don't really move

Mine has six limbs; Two dedicated wing arms, a pair of smaller arms that are tucked to their chest when their wings are folded at their side.

>>54990026
Arm wings are nice if not for the fact that feathers can't be used as fingers. They just can't be.

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>>54990026

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>>54990026
It would depend on the specific design.
Though it sucks when bird people are conveniently the only instance of six limbed vertebrae.

>>54990595
They can if you are in a cartoon setting.

>>54990026
Arm - talons while wings take the place of arms.

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>>54990026
They should have actual wings and manipulate things with their feet. They're just really good at flamingo-ing.

>>54990026
Mine have back wings

They're also more like feathered lizards than birds.

Arm wings, or regular wings with feet hands. Back wings are reserved for bugs and dragons.

Arms that can turn into wings because magic

>>54991505
This.

>>54990195
Sounds like an interesting setting.

>>54991643
Like the wind waker Rito?

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> bird people
> birds in general

>>54990195
Are the wingless ones the victims of an ancient blood curse?

>>54992491
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ7SQHH4Xoo

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>>54992491

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>>54992491

>>54990026

high fantasy where i can flff away them holdin things, arm wings. Low fantasy, back.

Arm wings. Back wings are for angels.

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Back.

>>54993019
I am 100% the opposite of you. I find arm wings suit low fantasy largely because they're forced to find more creative ways to hold things (I usually give them talon which can function as shitty arms). Where as back winds are for hawkmen so pulpy scifi only please.

>>54993800

Eh, i prefer to have my races not impossible to play in 90% of scenarios. If i ever run a game where the focus is on conquest and warfare, i might go with a talon-feet-hands race as mercenaries who excell at swoopong attacks and archery. As it is, they don't work well in dugeons, so i go a little away from the likely to allow them to be playable.

What stat adjustments do you use(in systems with 3-18 stats, if a different series, specify please)? I go with -4 con, -2 str, +2 dex in 3.5 onwards, and -2 con, -2 str in 2e. You don't get flying for free.

>>54993800
>talons
>shitty arms
A zydactyl bird's foot is a triple jointed limb that ends in a manipulator that has four pointed fingers offset from each other in a perfect gripping pattern, each with three joints and a full range of finger-like motion. Birds can pick stuff up and manipulate it just fine. Also, their beaks can grip, and their tongues have the same utility as a thumb for things in that grip. The only awkward parts are that they're using their face as a limb, and the two manipulating limbs are not symmetrical in either function or placement.

>>54994128
Well, there's also the awkward part of not being able to move about on the ground at the same time, like you might have to when having a sword-fight in a place that's too cramped to fly.

>>54993977
Shit, did I give the impression that my low fantasy bird people lacked hand analogs on their wing arms? I feel like that's what you took away. I don't do that. They have hands (sometimes 2 hands that are functionally 1 hand), and talons. The downside of course being that you can't talon effectively (not that you'd want to) while on the ground, and you can't hand effectively while in the air.

I do this in savage worlds. No stat adjustment. -1 toughness due to lower bone density (a carry over from the core's back wingers), gain a d6 in either streetwise or persuasion, habit: socialization (basically if they aren't chit chatting it up with someone they'll get depressed, that's entirely a thematic song bird setting thing I thought would be neat, same justification for the social skills being trained), flight. That's considered balanced by the old core rules for race creation, but I don't believe I've ran them through the modern ones.

If I include the weird handedness thing (treat 2 arms as 1, each leg = 1 arm with a str+d6 natural weapon and the all thumbs hindrance),then I'll balance that out by including charisma (like I've said I have a theme, cha is also very good in savage worlds).

I tend not to run hardcore dungeon crawls and flight becomes exponentially more useful the more available 3d movement is, basically the judgement call depends on how available and in what tech range the ranged combat options are. The more prevalent the ranged options, the more likely I am to add an additional upside (especially because talons limit the bird's own ranged options).

>>54994128
You show me a bird that can draw a bow or operate a firearm while flying and I will concede that point to you.

>>54990195
so they're from starbound.

>>54994216
You show me a bird that has to use its feet while flying first.

>>54994301
Any bird of prey that attacks things with its talons? Like I want you to know that you're promoting a player character race. A proud and noble player character race. That sits on its bum, grabs a thing with its feet, then thumb tongues it to properly manipulate it.

That's silly as shit, and you've a problem with my take?

>>54994346
First, birds of prey don't fly with their feet. If they were an intelligent race, they'd to fly-by attacks using weapons, held in their feet.
If they need to use all three limbs, then they've already got a massive advantage over any other race that only has two limbs for the same task. Birds balance on one leg and manipulate with the other.

>>54990026
Arm wings

>>54990738
>Though it sucks when bird people are conveniently the only instance of six limbed vertebrae.
Huh?

>>54994394
Re-read what I wrote. Because I am literally describing a race that cannot use the hands on its arms while it flies (with its arms), and instead must use its less manipulative talons.

Aka
>If they were an intelligent race, they'd to fly-by attacks using weapons, held in their feet.
That. Literally that.

>>54994458
>less manipulative
Again, all the lack is a thumb, which they don't need because their fingers are offset and can act as impromptu thumbs. Birds are also good at judging distance and movement, which is why they can land in tangled branches without impaling themselves, which means that in flight, they've got two manipulators that are just as good as anyone else, and one that still ranks as okay, and on foot, they're down one good manipulator, but still have the slightly less good one built into their face.

>>54994517
You're claiming right now. Right now. That a talon. A much larger appendage relatively speaking. Tipped with fucking piercing weapons. As a fully functional human hand.

>>54994550
Yes. Because it has fine motor control over multiple digits that each have complex joints capable of moving in many different ways, that are also placed in such a way as to not need thumbs. Also, you can clip talons if it's really necessary. They've only got nerves down at the bottom.

>>54994550
forgetting to finish my sentence aside. I also forgot to throw in "And are fucking renown for the crushing force"

>>54994594
Only on specific birds of prey. There are many kinds of bird, and birds of prey are some of the least mentally capable. An owl is basically just a meat-seeking missile, while a raven or large parrot can solve complex and abstract puzzles.

>>54994593
And these again much larger proportionally talons are just totally going to fit around everything that is made for a human hand, entirely without problem.

If anything your entire point can be made moot because all thumbs is an hindrance synonymous with elves and native americans due to cultural views on technology. Two creatures I am positive possess human like hands (feel free to correct me on that).

I didn't want to go there, but neener neener neener!

>>54994674
Watch some videos of large parrots holding onto things. Real birds, with real talons, hold things just fine, because they have very small palm-equivalents, and very dextrous toes. Fantasy bird-people, who probably aren't even anatomically accurate to birds, can probably do better.

>>54994713
Oh I believe you that birds can grip things. I do not believe you that an intelligent bird could fire a bow with its legs while airborne (hence the problem I have with what you're saying).

>Fantasy bird-people, who probably aren't even anatomically accurate to birds, can probably do better.
Or they could do worse for a mechanical trade off.

The real problem is just that people that exclusively use their feet and mouths for manipulating tools, weapons, and other objects are likely to look extremely silly when described to the human players.

Why did you post such a slutty bird, OP?

>>54994766
Why does a fantasy bird need to be able to use a bow?

>>54994848
That's what I'm asking you.
Fantasy bird's talons have all thumbs, I have explained to you what that means already. Why are you still being contrarian?

>>54994912
Ah I missed a word. And most of the preceding conversation to be honest, I'm just jumping into this thread and responding in error.
I'm of the opinion that you should just use ordinary bird forms and be creative in thinking what sort of tools a sapient bird would use.
that or go full fantasy and just use BotW birds.

>>54994912
That guy isn't me. Birds can reach any part of their body except for the end of their tail (If it's a long tail) with their feet. Scratching the top of their head in the same manner as a dog is normal behavior. I believe that they should be able to use a bow in the air if they've got the intelligence. They'd just have to use a short bow and fire it sideways (Not a big deal, considering their spatial awareness).

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I'm partial to the Iron Claw approach to birds: wing-arms, but with prehensile feet. Their wings can do really basic manipulation, but fine motor skills require their feet.

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>>54992491
Leave now and take your shit taste with you

>>54994988
No harm done, I'm equally in the wrong for assuming.
>>54995034
Now you on the other hand. Tell you what. I'll track down my fantasy setting documents and continue to distinguish my humans by making them the best at tool use, and my non-humans by making them more heavily reliant on their special abilities.

Congrats you've won a pointless internet argument about how I imagined a make believe creature wrong. Now I'm all out of medals, but I tell you what. I'll give you the equally rewarding prize of one less person willing to interact with you.

>>54995208
Well aren't you just precious. Have fun ruining your setting to prove a point that no one else will ever see. And don't reply to this or I win.

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These guys have back wings and still use talons to carry weapons, just to overcomplicate things.

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>>54990026
No wings.

>>54995208
mistake guy here; do you have any sort of specialist tools for your nonhuman races? In the little bit of setting writing I've done I've written one pure bird race that only ended up with complex tools because of trade with another more humanoid race.
Does that sort of tools-through-osmosis idea seem more palpable to you?

>>54995208
So, I'm neither of the guys you were talking with before, but until this point I followed your discussion with some interest, if less understanding. Now that it's over, what exactly were you trying to claim? "Bird-folk mustn't be able to use tools as well as humans do, not because of facts related to their anatomy, but because it is wrong to create fantasy races like this"? That seems solid enough, but for this entire argument you've been using evidence like:
>>54994766
>I do not believe you that an intelligent bird could fire a bow with its legs while airborne (hence the problem I have with what you're saying).
and
>>54994674
>And these again much larger proportionally talons are just totally going to fit around everything that is made for a human hand, entirely without problem.
and
>>54994550
>>54994594
>You're claiming right now. Right now. That a talon. A much larger appendage relatively speaking. Tipped with fucking piercing weapons. As a fully functional human hand. [And are fucking renown for the crushing force].
Which are all perfectly comprehensible arguments that support the thesis "Bird-folk would not be able to use tools as well as humans do because of facts related to their anatomy." Unfortunately, I'm a bit confused, because none of these things have anything to do with claims related to "how to imagine a make-believe creature." More for my benefit than his, would you mind explaining in clear fucking English what your point was and why you're so upset about it?

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>>54990026
>Do you prefer your bird-people in fantasy settings to have arm-wings or back-wings?

Arm-Wings if I HAVE to have them, otherwise I actually prefer no-wings.

I really like how weird, reptilian, and dangerous bird people look when they've got exposed, bald, clawed-hands.

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>>54990026
I prefer them like I prefer my chicken

>>54997248
I'm guessing the chicken thought that the cat was threatened by the mouse?

>>54997392
Fuck no it wanted the food.

>>54997392
Apparently chickens are omnivores. It probably thought that it deserved a delicious mouse more than the cat.

>>54997392
Most omnivores will eat mice. Hell, even horses will.

>>54997484
>>54997521
>>54997532
>chickens are omnivores
Neat, didn't expect that. All my experiences with chickens come from friendly ones that occasionally attack the more dickish ones for being assholes.

>>54990026
Why not have both? I haven't seen a bird-person with both before.

>>54997521
The cat probably just wanted to kill the mouse and wouldn't even eat it. If Bird had waited it could have had its meal after letting Cat have some fun.

I'd say they could have arm wings, but not be able to fly with them. Maybe glide or float at best.

Look at the Hoatzin, a weird ass bird that still has claws when it's a chick.
http://www.birdwatchersgeneralstore.com/Hoatzin.jpg

>>54997581
Are cats assholes? why would he do such a thing?

>>54992578
>Cute
>Emu
I'LL FOIGHT U CUNT.

>>54998485
Domestic Cats are unique in that they hunt for fun rather than food. Since we feed them anyway.

>>54994415
Name a vertebrae that has more than four limbs. Tails don't count.

>>54998462
that's some spooky shit, he is like a ninja

>>54999064
All cats hunt for fun.

Just most get their fun done whilst hunting for food.

>>54990026
Ones capable of flight: Back wings.
Ones only capable of gliding at best: feathered arms or "wings" with fingers.

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>>54992491

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>Not giving your birbpeople archaeopteryx-like wing arms
smhtbhfamalam

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>>54992976
aww

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>>55001372

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>>54990026
Leg wings
or butt wings

>>55001406
Butt wings are my least favorite Japanese design meme. That shitty succubus from Darkstalkers has them. And head wings. What is it with nips and head wings???

>>54997392
Mice will eat chicken eggs, so Chickens have learned to kill mice.

My chickens never ate them though, just left them for me.

Chickens are notorious for killing and eating other (sickly or injured) chickens though.

>>54990088
YO WARMBLOOD GET OFFA MUH LAWN REEEEEEE!!!

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>>54990136
Very kashikoi AND fashionable.

Arm wings, with prehensile feet capable of fine manipulation. Makes more sense anyway anatomically, wings usually need large chest muscles to work.

>>54998462
What is the specie of this bird ?
it looks so cool q.q

back wings

>>54990026
knee wings

>>55001964
>random hamster butt
хaх

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>>54990026
No wings. They're bird people because I replace their arms with beaks.

>>54998462
what birb is this?

Where's the option for feathered regular arms you fag

>>54999064
>>54998485
Domestic cats are basically trying to be normal cats in an abnormal situation. They would normally live in female family groups that hunt collectively, so killing and carrying home anything you can get is a good idea.

They are generally held as singles and not in family groups and fed, but they still hunt because that's how their species would normally survive.

>>55001382
What would you do /tg/?

>>54990595
So you let some of the fingers and thumb remain, while some of their fingers bend back and either split or fuse on a skeletal level to extend out and form the foundation the wing grows out from.

That way when the wing is folded it resembles a humanoid arm, but with a three fingered asshole hand and some weird fuckoff shit that hugs the back of the forearm and extends past it.

>>55003308
>>55002594

That is a Secretary bird. They can kick their prey with enough force to shatter the bones in your hand

>>54990026
I prefer them to be nonexistent!

Winged Humanoids are okay on the other Hand. Example, Avariel.

well, some Avariel, who don't cry all day long about their lost wings and how horrible life down on earth is... right Aerie??

My bird people don't even have wings thanks to an evolutionary flaw. They look at their avian non-sapient brethren in the skies and wish to fly alongside them one day.

Arm-wings seens comfier to get hugged by. So that.

>>54992976
>>55001372
>>55001382
Where are these from?

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>>54990195
What are we without the sky?!

>>55002926
пpocтo can be used as 'random'? I read it as 'just a [butt hamster]', you learn something new every day.

>>55006632
in this case it has the sameish connotation.

>>55002926
what is xax?

>>55006688
хaх (cyrillic letters, not latin) mans hah, хaхa is haha. Slavic х is pronounced as a raspy ch sound.

>>55001416
>lower back is the butt

>>55005432
They're from that other chan's /monster/ board. There are more things with crowgirl including her french fries being stolen by a pigeon-harpy lifeguard.

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>>54999076

>>55007053
Y-You do realize dragons don't exist, right?

>>55006880
So are you assblasted your waifu's been called out as shit or did you just jump at the opportunity to say ACKSHULLY?

>>54999076
Would insects count? Would spiders count?

>>55007661
Those are invertebrates, so no.

>>55007623
latter, problem nerd?

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Thoughts on Zweihander?

Basically Warhammer fantasy roleplay without the branding on, looking good for our group and we'll probably give it a playtest in the next few weeks.

/tg/'s thoughts?

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>>55007716
Nah I just wanted to make sure. Enjoy being technically correct, the best kind of correct.

>>55007566
Neither do birdmen. But in a setting with both, neither is ''conveniently the only six-limbed vertebrate''. Then consider gryphons, sphinxes, pegusi... why are six-limbed birdmen unacceptable?

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>>55001382

>>55007939
>>55001382
>>55001372
>>54992976
>all the animal people are female

Dumb fetishposters

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>>55007977
no u

>>55007842
Unless it has bird people I don't know why you're trying to derail this thread with your shit. All I know about this game is it looks extremely dull and derivative, but everyone on my Facebook can't stop shilling for it.

>>55000690
I like it tbqh famalama dingdong

>>55007053
Look at those colors, those horns, and that tail. That's not even a dragon, that's a Fire/Flying type

>>55007977
Male animal people are only acceptable if they are cute, small and gay (passive).

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I prefer featherless birdpeople.
So I guess that means I'm in the no-wings camp.

>>54997248
Fuck that cock is hardcore.

>>54990026
Ok ok ok
So
If you pluck her feathers off
ok
You are going to call me crazy but
If you pluck her feathers off, are there fingers in there?
Like Chicken fingers?

So how do human sized bird people eat staple civilized people food in your setting? Do they just ask the party members to break the loaf of bread down into crumbs so they can peck at them or just swallow it whole? How do they eat noodle based foods like sketti?

>>55009739
I don't see why birds would ever cook their food at all, they don't taste it just swallow it whole. A slashing weapon to cut pieces too big is all they need. Plus, birds eat literally anything, other birds, any meat, any bug, some eat grass like chickens.

>>54990026
In my sci fi setting?

Legs. The wings are where most other species' arms are, but instead they have adapted to building suits that wrap around the wings and use their powerful muscles to transport them around on their arms while they use their feet as manipulators instead.

>>54990260
If you thought up an excuse as to why it must be logical, they all know what you really want it for.

>>54990026
So how would bird people develop technology/clothing without fingers? How would they build structures or manipulate tools?

>>55010848
like any bird in real life does, with their feet.

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>>55010848
If we talk about proper bird wings, the last segment of those is commonly a finger in flying mammals like bats. Turn the other fingers around and you've got yourself a functioning hand at the cost of needing a lot tougher wing membranes as well as a reduced maneuverability in flight.

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>>55010848
>>55010936
Found a good picture of this on Wikipedia.

>>55010067
wait, so your alien bird people walk on their hands and go spread eagle to fly with their asses pointing forward?

>>55010963
what the fuck is this?

>>55011006
A bat? As far as I know, the only flying mammal in existance. Omnipresent on all continents except antarctica.

>>55011006
Just some photoshop a guy did with a rat head and fun on a body. You can see where they warped the fingers and legs and didn't fix their layers

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>>55010963
That's a bat not a bird.
Bird wings are structured differently.
>>55010936
Bird wings do not have small hands above the wing, the wing is their hand

>>55011141
Yeah, I'm aware of that, but we're talking fantasy bird race here and using some of the aspects of flying foxes may help to give them the ability to use tools and such.

>>55010915
That severely limits what kind of tools they can use and what kinds of tech they could develop though doesn't it?
What kind of technology could they potentially develop using their feet/mouths as manipulator organs?

>>55011158
Oh, well I personally am looking for more of a speculatory fiction approach.

>>55008908
isnt dark crystal getting a new netflix series? there might be a new surge of Skeksis art

>>55011182
Fair enough.
using your provided picture, I could see the hand moving upwards, leaving one finger "inside" the wing and freeing the rest of the hand. This would allow for manipulation, though very weirdly - with the natural position of the hands being completely backwards from a human perspective, kinda like the "raise the roof" hand motion but with the arms facing forward. Assuming the can somehow give an evolutionary incentive for manipulation, the end result would be a bird with upward facing hands.

now this offers some weirdly interesting options for "bird tech"

>Computer keyboards are downward facing and rather spread out, requiring a far more intuitive approach to those machines
>Drawing a weapon from the hip is a lot easier and faster
>Slashing motions are a lot harder to achieve, thrusting motions a lot easier, leading to probably a lot more spear-like weaponry and far less axes in this races history
>Ranged aiming is probably a lot more horizontal than vertical

I kinda like this, may need to sketch that up when I find the time.

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>>55011163
I mean talking about tool usage, all we would have to do is pretend the birds are strong as a human. If so, a bird can use a hammer, has inbuilt scissors-fingers as claws, sure they probably can't use a needle but they don't need clothes unless for fashion (which means they probably acquire clothing via trading). The big deal would be no wood cutting because you can't use an axe with those legs, since they can't generate an horizontal swing.

What could a strong beak be used for? Really makes you think.

Maybe an avian society could use woodpeckers for wood working.

>>55011495
That's an interesting take, although I would have to wonder how they would develop things like computers in the first place sing I imagine that would require a lot of precise work that would require more dexterity than such a body plan would allow.
Alternatively the idea of them only having their beaks and feet as manipulators while restrictive could lead to some interesting directions, such as the idea that when performing any kind of work that requires extra dexterity they would need to sit down, freeing both feet, also I had the idea of them using weapons that rely on their feet, with maybe something like steel claws (ala what roosters in cockfights sometimes have put on them) as a racial equivalent of a knife or sword.
Another thought is that maybe they descended from a line of birds that never lost their muscular dinosaurian tails and could use that as if not a limb a means of keeping themselves upright when using their legs as hands.
>>55011509
> but they don't need clothes
That really depends on both region and what kind of feather covering they have, maybe they are partially or mostly bald like say an ostrich?
>The big deal would be no wood cutting because you can't use an axe with those legs
Perhaps another means of cutting trees?
Maybe saws?
>Woodpecker lumberjacks
I like that idea too.

Of course another good question is what kind of bird are these people?
What kind of bird is the most likely to become sapient and be able to develop technology?

>>55011744
>Tail-balanced birbs fighting with talon punches
This is oldschool tekken levels of cool and stupid at the same time.

>What kind of bird is the most likely to become sapient and be able to develop technology?
Corvids, especially Ravens

>>55011744
The corvids could be building a humanlike civilization right now if not for their inability to properly manipulate fire due to lack of hands.

>>55011803
>literally already smart enough to use "tools"
Ravens are fucking amazing. Its gonna be down to them and cephalopods on what could take over if humans went away

>>55011744
>such as the idea that when performing any kind of work that requires extra dexterity they would need to sit down, freeing both feet
That sounds incredibly cute.

>>55011893
>counting out the chimpanzees

They've already got spears, anon! Besides, if you only use the other two, ravens win by virtue of being able to breathe air and maybe learn how to make fire.

Cephalopods and dolphins have the same disadvantage - living in water where you can't do any of that.

>>55011893
considering "taking over" im assuming you mean a civilization replacement and not just live everywhere cause then Ants have that covered
but just being in the ocean kind of fucks over that sort of thing for squidlies
as social as shit like dolphins and whales are you kind of cant smelt under the waves effectively

so crows it be...maybe

>>55011141
>Bird wings do not have small hands above the wing, the wing is their hand
Check the Hoatzin, though. It's not impossible for them to have fingers extending from the wrist.

File: Squibbon_manga_infobox.png (299KB, 500x263px) Image search: [Google]

299KB, 500x263px

>>55012024
>but just being in the ocean kind of fucks over that sort of thing for squidlies
Land dwelling arboreal squids!

>>55009739
Not so sure about that, I had a parrot that liked to lick its food before eating

>>55012063
AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

File: what-is-splatoon-char.png (43KB, 668x506px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 668x506px

>>55012063
Or just a bit amphibious

>>55012063
Did they leave the oceans to get away from the sharkopaths?

Uplifted crows in RL when?

>>55012200
>needing to uplift something that's already as smart as you

>>55011893
>>55012001
>>55012024
>>55012063
Cephalopods are really fucked over in the civilization department mostly by the fact that they tend to die after they procreate.
Their reproductional strategy isn't really conducive to complex social structures.

>>55012001
>Cephalopods and dolphins have the same disadvantage - living in water where you can't do any of that.
What about land dwelling cetaceans?
Cetaceans used to live on land what if they never stopped might they still have developed intelligence?

>>55012087
I want a parrot to lick my dick before eating it.

>>55012360
Probably?

>>54990195
So basically Arakkoa?

>>55012384
I was under the impression much of delphin intelligence developed only some time after returning to the seas perhaps as an advantage to that environment.

>>55012363
What do bird tongues even feel like?

>>55012278
Why is it that some animals evolved to die after giving birth? Isn't that counterproductive? Wouldn't it be better for their species if they could reproduce multiple times?

>>55012499
what's the evolutionary purpose of a tongue anyway?

>>55012628
to have some concept of what is in our food?
i mean if you think taste is purely a pleasurable thing your just silly

>>55012624
Well, the upside is that they get absolute assloads of kids that one time.

>>55012624
Well, evolution doesn't really care about what's better. If it works, evolution may just leave it there.

>>55012499
Kind of like cat tongues, but infinitely less rough. They've got a kind of striped texture to them, usually very dry.

>>55007930
Check and mate. Nice anon.

>>55006363
best image itt