/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>54965984
>Best hunter methods
Get stoned, hit werewolves with silver plated SUV. Detroit city best city.

>>54965984
If bullets don't work, use fire.
If fire doesn't work, use explosives.
If explosives don't work, you clearly haven't been using enough.

>>54966056
>have you tried attacking from the front

>>54965984
> Best Hunter methods?
Always strike first, ideally by surprise. Hit hard. Abuse tilts.

Also in countries that allow it, overwhelming firepower. Guns out the ass. Even if a monster only takes bashing from bullets a full cell opening fire from a decent distance will really do a number on them. Oh, and take a page out of /k/'s book and make shotgun shells filled with whatever the monster in question's weakness is.

>>54966290
Shotguns are super important. Those rerolls can be the difference between death and slightly less death.

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>>54965984
>Question:
Best hunter methods ?

Getting riot armor, a trenchcoat with religious phrases on the sleeves, a cool hat, a greatsword and a crossbow lined with silver bolts and become the vintage Benediction hunter, a man using long-forgotten tools to hunt the night in a world that moved on past him, a man able to kill the shit out of anything Satan throws at you.

Except guns. You're totally fucked if the vampires or werewolves have guns.

>>54966447
Surprised Hurt Locker didn't feature some sort of minor supernatural merit or something for the lost boys letting them apply their defense to guns.

>>54966357
Shotguns are a great Hunter weapon. A sawed off double barrel can be shockingly effectively. Have it hidden on you, pull it out, and unload two barrels of 9-again into the monster's face. Stacks great with a risked willpower.

>>54966447
Although anon brings up a good point about a gun-less vigil. In places where guns are hard to get, you'll be at a pretty big disadvantage. But you can end up surprising monsters if you get lots of fighting merits. Also the use of traps and vehicles can be very effective, and being a hunter in a gun-less place can have one saving grace, in that monsters won't be shooting at you either.

>>54966552
I mean, when the monsters care about the law, that is. Some probably care less than others.

>>54966565
True, but even then they'll be rarer. And it requires a certain degree of connectedness to society and intelligence to get guns. So odds are the only gun toting monsters would be vampires and witches, in terms of the broad archetypes.

>>54966586
Unfortunately, I don't really do games outside of America.

And here, guns are pretty much the norm.

I live in Washington, one of the most liberal states around. We are known for coffee, liberals, and hipsters. Most of the cars you pass on the road will have a 'guns & coffee' sticker on them, with the starbucks mermaid holding pistols.

When I ST, most monsters are packing heat unless they consider themselves too strong to bother.

But what you're saying makes sense. If your game takes place in Britbong land, odds of gun use plummet like crazy.

>>54966552
It is pretty silly the few times we do go up against gunless wonders in the game. My dude has 9 fucking defense dice and rolls 12 dice flat with a sword. He can actually keep up really well against vampires thanks to certain benedictions.

>>54966586
Gun laws create a hurdle everyone has to either work around or work through. Its why gun smuggling / running into big metropolitan cites is still a thing. Out in the country side and across state lines the gun laws are really relaxed. The gun violence statistics are calculated / considered separate. So the source of the guns are never penalized for the crimes committed in the bigger cities.

Rural - Our gun violence is almost non existent we don't need stricter laws.
Urban - FCUK we have so much gun violence, our laws are so strict wtf? where are these guns coming from?

>>54966613
I'm an American too, but I've always wanted to run a game outside of America, or in a time before the modern firearm, just for the danger of close combat with the supernatural. Colonial Era muskets at best.

And oh do I feel bad for the Britbong Hunters. Can't even into knives, poor soul. Their best hope is to load up on an unholy amount of unarmed combat merits.

>>54966619
High exp Hunter is really fun. I was playing in an early colonial, late renaissance era Hunter game. Took on an Ancillae in single combat. It was one of the most tense moments I've ever been in in an RPG. My character didn't fight clean, but he didn't break any rules. He was in bleed out, only narrowly saved by the cell surgeon, but he won.

Speaking of Hunter, what's the craziest plan your players have ever pulled off in Hunter?

>>54966818
My Hunter players set a huge bomb to take down a building full of vampires and waited in the safety of... several floors above that. In the building. They pulled it off... with no survivors. I kept asking what they thought was going to happen and I guess everyone just sort of forgot how buildings work. They were outside the 'radius' and put safety out of their minds.

Which of the splats/fanbases is the least infested when it comes to SJW whores and PC retards?
I'm getting tired of sessions getting ruined because of "muh triggers". Or being too uncomfortable to even play what you want to play without potentially offending someone.

No, I will not give you the two most recent examples of this happening in my life, because this actually irks me something fierce.

Fuck. I just want to play games with respectable peers in peace, that aren't laced with any of this crap.

>>54967061
Welcome to the vast majority of WoD players n' writers. Ain't no way around it.

Quick. Somebody post some ridiculous sidebars.

>>54967061
You came to the wrong neighborhood.

WW/OP games are built for SJW, by SJW.

Go play Unknown Armies or something.

>>54967112
>"WW/OP games are built for SJW, by SJW."

>implying this is a good thing

>>54967123
Well we have a big old catalog of upcoming games. So it seems to be working out just fine for them.

It works fine for me. I have a game where my players feel fine playing as whatever gender or orientation they want, plus there are themes and rules to back those choices up.

Plus the attempts at diversity means a lot of cultures are touched on in the NPCs, settings, and mechanics.

If a few sidebars pissing off /b/-tards and /pol/ is all it takes to get that, keep them coming.

>>54967123
>implying this is a good thing
It's *a* thing. Feel free to feel however you want about it.

There's a difference between an SJW and a well-minded individual.

>>54967061
Hunter. The amount of guns, the vigilantism, and having an "other" that's preying on humanity as the main antagonist tends to push away most identity politics and SJW types. It won't attract many far-right types either, which is also good.

>>54967158
Not to the people who actually use the word "SJW", there isn't.

>>54966818
We invaded the dreamscape of some sort of dream-demon thing that was awoken in our town.

Took kidnapping a few children (and not being branded child molesters) as well as a lot of research, and almost frying the brains of those that joined the ritual.

Was fun times. We saved the day, and less kids died than would have otherwise.Only cost one of us (me) his sanity, and another member her legs.

>>54967189
It's an appropriate acronym.

What callbacks are there to former oWoD characters in CofD? Like, Voormas is the Saint of Paradox. The Lady of Milan is Lilith. That sort of thing.

>>54967243
The Old Gods of the Thistle are Fae of all possible versions of Arcadia.

Technically that includes oWoD Fae and Exalted's Raksha.

>>54967306
Is this bait?

>>54967330
I don't know. I'm not one of the three people who understands owod stuff.

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>>54967330

>>54967306
True Fae don't exist within the confines of the Supernal. As of 2e the Old Gods of the Thistle are effectively something else entirely.

OWoD n' Exalted have no connections to CofD.

>>54967330
I believe the bait you're looking for is >>54967061

/b/-tards pretending to be /pol/-tards

>>54966619
sorry saying 9 defense dice triggered me, your defense isnt dice its a penalty.

You roll dice when your dodging and thats your dodge dice pool.

>>54967454
Doesn't oWoD roll defense as a pool?

Quick question: What's everyone's general ideas about how much of the population is involved in The World? Enough to create the 'everyone knows' feeling without it being stupid that they're still hiding.

I was thinking like 1% but then London, my game setting, would have 80,000 vaugly supernatural things which seems excessive.

>>54967580
I use one mage per 65k, one werewolf per 10, one vampire per 25, with some variance for small towns, supernatural hotspots (Vampires in New Orleans pre Ezekiel, Mages in London, Werewolves in Australia), for major ones.

Keep in mind that that 80k involves a handful of vampires, werewolves and mages, sure. It also involves ghouls, wolf blooded, hunters, people who sometimes have revelatory dreams, people involved in some sort of mystery cult, the guy whose leg hurts whenever he crosses a certain spot and doesn't realise it's actually a manifestation of his unseen senses, the supernaturally lucky.. you get the idea. It's like Shadowrun - there, 1% of the population is Awakened. That runs the gamut from knacked people who can cast a single, minor spell and have 1MAG to that Mage who was born pre-awakening and drop kicks dragons as morning exercise.

First lore stuff from the V5 Gencon scenario rolling in:

>I only know we were told by the GM but:
>The Cam is in shambles, they're almost like the Inconnu now. Almost all the elder vampires have been called back to the Middle East, and without their power the Anarchs have claimed massive amounts of territory, and our PCs were Anarchs! Berlin and other major cities among them.
>The Sabbat has, en masse, followed them to try and finish their war. Also have seceded territory to the Anarchs.
>Tremere? Left the Cam and are all back in Vienna for nebulous reasons.
>The Government knows about Vampires, full stop. The Second Inquisition has begun and The Society of Leopold is operating world wide and in force, with government sanction.
>We encountered a straight up open Baali.
>The Temple of Set is working in the open.

>>54967675
And most of the government and corporate structure is busy dying out as the ghouls suffer from lack of vitae.

Hey /tg/, what WoD book should i buy? I'm not interested in playing the actual game, just wanna read the lore. I'm not familiar with the WoD universe at all, but i played VTMB and liked it.

>>54967629
For a second i read that as 1/10 people are werewolves and was really confused.

Thinking about it, 0.5% makes a bit more sense

5k of both Vampires and Mages, enough for England's biggest communities

2.5k Werewolves

2.5K Hunters since it's a Hunter game

5k Other potent Awakened; Arisen, Changelings, Promentheans, anything with a core book.

20k Misc
I feel like vampires should outnumber werewolves, though that's a bias since I'm not a fan of The Forsaken.

Thinking about the greater London Area you probably could double it. The reason I'm thinking this much is I have a Null Mysterii member in the group who will totally try and find out.

>>54967727
Werewolf numbers would be pretty protean, given the nature of their lives. And the Pure *vastly* outnumber the Forsaken.

And somewhere in there there's like two Purified who hoping nobody notices them.

>>54967750
>And the Pure *vastly* outnumber the Forsaken.

I'm rather ignorant pertaining to Werewolf lore. What's the reason for this?

>>54967750
>>54967771

As the guy who posted the question, so am I, I thought they were collectively called The Forsaken.

I've never had much interesting in werewolves.

>>54967712
Is that something that is actually a thing in the playtest, or a joke? I can't tell, which is worrisome.

>>54967821
A joke, given the prevalence of vampiric influence in the classic world.

>>54967725
There are story books in the universe. Loom up the different anthologies. I think there was a strix chronicle anthology that should have vamp stories.

>>54967837
Thanks!

>>54967791
>>54967771
Collectively called the Uratha. The Forsaken Tribes are the ones who hunted down Father Wolf and broke Pangaea, swearing to Luna that they'd totally replace him. The three remaining tribes who didn't said "Fuck this shit" and became the Pure.

The Pure live longer than the Forsaken, mostly, because they don't follow the Oath of the Moon. They do what they want. They use spirits in their packs. They're less iffy about killing other werewolves. The Forsaken are busy trying to fight a racial holy war on one end and do a job that took a God and his five children on the other.

>>54967771
The pure are the loyalists, effectively. They don't care about playing fair. They chain themselves to powerful spirits for their totems, dangerous spirits that want to unbalance the material world.

The pure don't care about manipulating, killing, or farming humans. They are more likely to hide behind weak spirits and weak humans.

The pure outnumber the forsaken because they don't play spirit cops. They want to rule the world, as father wolf did in the last. They don't want to be servants of it. So by not worrying about their duties, they are able to flourish.

There is probably s bigger given reason, but that's off the top of my head.

Are there any owod books on ancient ghouls? The only nwod ones I can think of are the leader of the Malleus Malificarum and that one mentioned in Thousand Years of Night.

>>54967853
If we believe sundered world, father wolf had many children. We just have tribes for eight of them.

Did Atlantis rule the world pre-Fall, or were the Pangeans the ones running things?

>>54967883
Dunno I don't think it was written with Mage cosmology in mind.

>>54967860
So I guess both work in a Hunter game since Hunters wont give a fuck about cosmic battles and gods

>>54967883
The world before the Fall isn't this world. When the Silver Ladder broke, it wasn't that Atlantis was destroyed, it's that Atlantis never was, and the world was never the utopia of free flowing magic that Atlantis was. History changed. From their perspective, the Exarchs could have only been ascended for 5 minutes or so.
It's impossible to know if Pangeans ever even occupied the same universe as Atlanteans.

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>>54967727
>>54967791
Uratha are a million times better than leeches. At least they have a good purpose and are of some benefit to the world. Leeches are disgusting parasites who have no redeemable qualities and are wholely a net burden on the human race. It would be better for everyone if they were all extinct. The fact that Beasts are the only supernatural splat that likes leeches should tell you something. Both my mage and forsaken characters kill leeches on sight

>>54968616
Both Mages and werewolves are parasites.

>>54968734
Humans are parasites on the gloriously perfect world. Ecoterrorism now.

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>>54968734
No they aren't. Werewolves protect humanity from malicious spirits, vampires, beasts, rogue werewolves and etc. Mages protect the world from all of the above and worse things. You just sound like a butt devastated leech.

>>54967061

Werewolf.

I have met amazingly conservative, alright, libertarian, Etc types when playing apocalypse. Most of them tended to be European metalheads who despise Muslims and are drunk all the time.

>>54967771

It's easier to make the Forsaken look like their heroic and The Underdogs when they're outnumbered by all of their enemies who also play dirty.

There's no believable reason for this besides setting up narrative tone.

>>54969006
see
>>54967853
>>54967860

>>54969026

A bunch of spirit humping luddites who do all sorts of stupid shit that would get them killed, don't really come off as being ones who "''vastly outnumber'''. If they did they would have wiped out the traitors already. I could see the firefags being larger than any one Forsaken tribe but not All of them. The Predator King's own methodology ensures that they will never have large numbers.


Face it, their numbers come from human and spirit proxies, not Uratha populations. it's no different from black spiral dancers, who actually had the benefit of being Unified and backed by a fucking Destroyer God.

>>54969103
No, I'm pretty sure their numbers come from not holding to the oath of the moon and participating in a racial holy war that they're winning.

>>54967523
Nope, it has soak dice which is usually stamina, armor, or other shit.

>>54967454
You'll have to forgive me, I just got out of playing a Shadowrun session so I had buckets of dice on the mind when I jotted that bit down.

>>54969487

It does uf you Dodge. Otherwise, yes, your attacker rolls against a Difficulty and then you move on to damage and damage soaking resolution.

Can aimed spells be dodged?

>>54971519

Can you dodge my dick before I rape you with it?

>>54971519
Considering you subtract defense then one would say yes. (except fast casting merit) however since aimed spells have to use area scale then at smallest whatever your throwing is arms reach radius then maybe not?

>>54971519
Yes. Sensory range with the reach upgrade, no.

>>54971927
Wait what spells are sensory ranged by default?

>>54971952
None that I can think of. I mean you can use an aimed spell without spending reach, sure, no problems, but if you spend the reach it's not something you can try to dodge/defend against. The difference between throwing a grenade and having it materialise in someone's front pocket.

>>54971977
Forgive me if I am wrong but don't you have to spend a reach if you want to change a spell from touch to sensory?

>>54972071
You can cast a touch based spell at a distance using aimed spell rules which need to use scale. Otherwise you can spend a reach to use sensory. Page 114.

are there any cyberpunk setting for wod/cofd?

>>54972225
Check out Infinite Macabre. Hurt locker also has rules for cybernetic implants for mortals.

>>54972090
Ok now I understand

>>54972090
>You can cast a touch based spell at a distance using aimed spell rules which need to use scale.
[citation needed] about it needing to use scale.

Would a wooden bullet count as a stake for purposes of staking a vampire?

>>54968951
That's fucking weird, man. Apocalypse draws in the most tumblr tier of snowflakes in the US.

>>54972666
Page 113, first paragraph of the section called "Scale".
The scale of a spell is how large the spell is. Mages must decide
when casting whether they are targeting specific subjects or a
blanket area of effect. Aimed spells (see below) must use area
of effect, centered on wherever the mage aims.

It's fairly careful to use aimed v sensory elsewhere.

>>54972712
I'd say no, it's too small to impale the heart. Even if it did, the moment it finishes passing through the vamp is fine again.

>>54972712
Yes for owod, as long as it did at least three levels of damage.

>>54968056
Exactly. In most hunter write ups, they can't tell which side they are fighting and they don't care to know.

>>54972712
Yes, if it's one of the special VALKYRIE bullets or something similar.

>ITT: anon argues about wooden bullets
>abandon logic here

>>54972974
Thanks.

>>54972712
I recall the general rule being that a wooden object needs to pierce the heart from one side to the other to count as a stake.
A wooden bullet wouldn't, nor would a toothpick, but a strategically placed pencil would.

>>54972225
There is a Cyberpunk 2020 crossover with Masquerade. It's called ''World Of Future Darkness''.

>>54973237
Maybe that was owod?
I think the rule in nwod is just that the metal object has to stay stuck in there. So a 'bullet' that passes in and out wouldn't do the trick, but if it got lodged, they would torpor.

So do Black Furies accept males now or is it strictly trannies?

>>54967675
So, about that Masquerade...

>>54974238

Nope, we full on SJW commie Anarch revolution now!

Don't forget how that shitty game had God awful thin blood characters running around feeding on people openly.

>>54974319
I guess they just kept the title for marketing purposes. If world governments know and there's no Cam what exactly is the point?

>>54973237
>Vampires
>susceptibles to pencils and sunlight

>Why aren't leeches extinct?

>>54974576

Raging victoriously over your traditionalist bigotted elders! Who conveniently exited stage right for unexplained reasons so you can wave your social justice warrior tranny dick in everyone's face!

>>54974756

> can take a full blast from a shotgun and keep going without any issues

> get stabbed with a number 2 pencil and is a helpless little bitch

Why do you fags rate werewolves and changelings blow these guys, again?

>>54974769

>he can't enjoy exploring the themes of anarchy and realizing one's capacity for evil when unrestrained

i know it's roots are "muh freedoms" but honestly when i was doing a new campaign with my group and we realized no Cam means no constant adherence to a hierarchy of killer NPCs that's always plagued WW game design, the game became a lot less about evil and immediate punishment, and more about how fucking evil someone can get before even the other evil guys ask "oh god what are we"

>>54974769
And massively nosebleed into cups.

>>54974130
They accept males... as long as they identify as females.

>>54974866

makes sense. Black Fury identity is partly about being a woman, isn't it?

>>54974866

>so butt devastated by the war that they have to start taking in '''''women'''''' to replenish their ranks

Furies on suicide watch!

>>54974866

Wouldn't a trans woman Fury be like finding a black Leprechaun riding on a unicorn in the Sahara?

>>54974792
>fags rate werewolves and changelings blow these guys

In terms of supernatural toughness, changelings should still be below vampires. They most certainly cannot take a blast from a shotgun or anything similar, and they're susceptible to *iron*, ubiquitous in items like cookware and fences, and iron actually makes tolerable weapons. At least with respect to werewolves, not only are they purpose build fighting machines, relatively pure silver is rarer and makes crap weapons.

>>54974915
>start taking in '''''women'''''

Don't you mean "womyn"?

>>54974933
Wouldn't that be a normal degree of special for a DMPC though?

>>54974951

Don't forget female (male)

>>54974956

It is, but generally speaking people who identify as trans only makeup 0.3% of the entire world's population. Within that number would be an massively smaller percentage that are also Garou.

They would be a minority among a tiny minority. Saying any are willing to actually come out as trans. Garou society and the Litany make it near impossible to get away with not preforming your basic reproductive duties for the war effort. Call yourself a man or a woman if you want, but in Garou society you will fight and you will sire offspring end of story. Bickering over such matters when you have the urban magic equivalent of Warhammer 40,000 chaos knocking at your door is folly.

>>54975146
>Implying WW has the common sense to consider any of those points.

>>54975187

They don't but the writing also makes it feel like it's a throwaway thing to appease the current climates. At the very least the Black Furies have a traditionalist group that disagrees with them transgenders and male Garou among their ranks.

Personally? I agree with them. Furies were more interesting because of their exclusivity and potential hypocrisy. They are at their best as Amazons or furry Sisters of Battle rather than as the gender politics tribe.

Additionally you think they would take Medusa as their totem, seeing as they are very Greek and Medusa is the archetypal victimized woman who is empowered through becoming a monster. Or at least tie Athena into them somehow.

>>54975146
Its not even that hard. Fuck, make children, then go be a fag. Literally nothing is stopping people from being gay and having kids. Have you guys seen brokeback mountian? One of the gay cowboy couple had a wife and kid. a normie life.

>>54975322

Garou do 't even stick around to have a family life for a raise the child, it's handed off to Kinfolk.

>>54975187
Imagine that every WW/OP book is being written as a string of posts on rpg.net by a brand-new poster who's already been "Warned." That's the level of PC ~representation~ they aim for.

>>54975376
I got to think there is a sliding scale of garou parent involvement. but yeah one night. think of clan and country. if female 9mouth vacation. if male fuck them and leave.

>>54975445

Varies by tribe really. Shadow lords and silver fangs will take a very direct hand in who they think their successors are going to be. Bone gnawers like we have a more familial bond and love with their kids. Most Get seem to have their sires directly involved with them and even groomed to be a better Warrior by them, which makes sense because they're one of the smaller tribes but they try to be the best at fighting. And of course Gaians probably get a little too attached to their brats.. Fianna are like one big clannish family if deadbeat parents. Furirs, as mentioned, treat it like it's a duty to preform. Striders probably also fit the bill as deadbeat parents.

I would be surprised if the stargazer's even go out of their way to have kids rather than just recruit them from other tribes.

>>54966613
They could just use acid, I hear its very popular in britbong land.

>>54968951
>>54972849
There are some pretty overtly racist factions in OWoD that people like drifting towards. Like the Get and their love of purity.

>SJWs writing WoD

Gee, it's almost like this was always the case -and- the sole intent. Get out /pol/-tards.

>>54976124
Its been the case from OWoD, it was just less noticeable because they were even less well informed so it just came off as edgy. Also in OWoD the lectures were /in character/. Not directly from the writer addressed to the reader.

Any news about the Trinity Continuum line from GenCon?

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>he doesn't play Geist

>>54967675
Were there chi-mo premade characters this time?

>>54976124
>the sole intent

I really hope Geist 2e isn't shit, but judging by Changeling 2e's development I'm getting kinda worried.
OPP, Don't make being possessed by a ghost some cringy metaphor for the struggle of the gay man in 1940s Bosnia or some shit, or make Geists a metaphor for mental illness or whatever.
I just want to play JJBA 2spooky4me edition.

>>54976838
Grist are already a metaphor for the weight of race on the shoulders of minorities. The manifests ghosts of past cultures clinging to them, directing them, and leading to violence that they themselves don't want.

Catch up anon.

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>>54977111
Pic related

>>54975989

That is more the Blades of Heimdall.

Reminder that the American Get killed all of the Nazi Get and their sympathizers duribg WWII.

If anyone would be big on Purity it would be the silver fangs, shadow lords and wendigo. Technically the red Talons as well.

>>54977289
>Reminder that the American Get killed all of the Nazi Get and their sympathizers duribg WWII.
This was in revised right?

>>54977325

2e. I still have my tribe book with the ridiculous comic of them fighting the evil nazi werewolf baron.

>>54977216
as retarded as that is. it was worth a chuckle
>>54977111
>weight of race on the shoulders of crackers. The manifests ghosts of past cultures clinging to them, directing them, and leading to violence that they themselves don't want.

>>54977495
I mean, the social unit of geist is effectively a gang. Not a mob, or a mafia, a gang. Even if they try to give it some stupid name like Krewe.

If that ain't obvious, I don't know what is. Geist are meant to be blackies. They just couldn't say that because OP/WW is made up of the pastiest white boys around.

>>54977598
Isn't the Krewe, in fact, the only /real/ family a geist has? Just like normal gang members!

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>>54977598
You can apply that same argument to werewolf packs. It's literally a spiritual turf war. that was the weakest evidence you have and your argument is terrible when there is an obviously better argument you could have made.

Hint
Dead in New Orleans

>>54977976
Naw, because werewolves still care for their human family, bring in outsiders, and form a large community around their pack. And they associate with tribes.

Werewolves are clearly a native american metaphor, always have been. The shamanism, the being trapped between worlds, needing to police their own and use ancient ways to protect the world from its encroaching modern technology.

Geist is black gangs. It isn't a bait, or a trick, that's just what they intended.

>>54978227

And vampire is about how all these whites are parasites on all these proud colored races and only drag themselves the top by exploiting and murdering innocent minorities!

>>54978306
I mean you said it, not me.

>>54978227
>Werewolves are clearly a native american metaphor
They even have the same sorts of corruption that leads their entire tribe (or species actually) to be completely fucked and the leadership just insists on doing things the same way anyhow.

I doubt it was intentional though.

>>54978227
>>54978306

Mage Zionists, baby!

>>54978410
A bunch of esoteric pseudo-religious guys who keep talking about their motherland they need to recapture while looking down on everyone not of the same breed as them? Sounds right.

Demon is clearly a metaphor about being gay.

>You used to be straight.
>One day you questioned your straightness and fell.
>Now you must hide in plain sight, keeping your cover of being in the closet while the mindless servants of heterosexuality mercilessly hunt you down to go full Mike Pence and convert you back

>>54978617

Well, as the Palestinians never actually had a state, and they've never even claimed to be different religiously or politically different that other Arabs of the region until after the creation of Israel, I think we can safely say that Palestinian statehood definitely serves the Lie.

>Arafat was a Gulmoth, and Abbas is just a run of the mill useless human

>>54978711
Also you know, Gays get super powers and must steal the lives of others just to survive.

>>54978799
It's true. And while outwardly appearing as humans, gays are in fact, not people.

>>54978799

It's a fundamental tenet since WW"s founding in 1991 that gays and other minorities are "magical." The more "oppressed" a person is, apparently the more "magical" they become.

Ironically, while WW/OPP insist various minorities are just like everyone else, the repeated blunt reminders in sidebars and author comments, the actual disproportionate focus on minority in the fiction and npcs who are one-dimensional characters who are little else but their minority status, to say nothing of the minority metaphors of most of the splats, have done nothing but demonstrate just how different (and bitter and radical) these people are. While I generally judge people on their own character and merits, if I listened to WW, I'd be the biggest bigot around.

>The worst offender is Beast, and its tween minority revenge fantasy pcs without any redeeming qualities who definitely deserved to be slaughtered on site.

>>54978807
>It's true. And while outwardly appearing as humans, gays are in fact, not people.

Indeed. Even a quick read of the practically gay (and transgender) manifesto that is Requiem has convinced me that gays drink blood and control minds.

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>>54978711
>>54978930
Everything is a metaphor for being gay.

>>54978711
>mindless servants of heterosexuality

Mormons???

>Mormon Mages, it doesn't get any worse

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>>54978916
Beasts are supposed to be villains. In a way it's an encouraging sign that they can let Oppression Olympics gold medalists turn heel.

>>54979091
Mormonism teaches Ascension, it's the most mainstream example of mage ideas there is.

>>54979091
>Mormon Mages, it doesn't get any worse

What about those crazy, world-controlling, baby-eating, greedy Zionist Mages?

Which book has the eclipse auspices? Is anyone doing anything with the eclipse in their games?

>>54979096
>Beasts are supposed to be villains

Oh, they're definitely villains, but it wasn't intended that way, and many at WW (and virtually all WW fans on rpg.net) still just don't get it.

>>54979182
That's why they shoehorned in that silly "lessons" bullshit.

>>54979207
>shoehorned in that silly "lessons" bullshit.
They ruined the original draft by upping the ante to include gas lighting as a basic practice of every beast, without reigning in the clear fact that its minorities doing the gas lighting and victimizing people.

>>54979182
>the antagonists are called heroes
>it wasnt intended

>>54979269

At least in other minority-metaphor gamelines (everything but Mage, which is a metaphor for privilege?), there's some sort of "morality" mechanic that indicates disfavored monstrous activity. In Beast, by totally abandoning this device, and thus encouraging monstrous behavior by the protagonists, and then openly denigrating caricature mainstream "heroes" who try to stop them, WW's pandering finally crossed the point of no return.

I hope Dave doesn't continue this downward trend in Deviant, and the game remains more Cronenberg, and less transgender revenge fantasy.

>>54979357
It was meant to be ironic for the highschool revenge fantasy BS
>"Chad that bullied me in highschool thought he was such a cool and heroic guy, well lets see how heroic he is when my Dragon soul sets him on fire!"

>>54979405
Dreaming 20th (by the same guy as Beast) has some similar implications where groups you know the author thinks are good (BLM and the like) come off as terrorists. Its just more subtle than beast and no one likes dreaming so it didn't come up much.

>>54979405
I recall Dave saying the theme was less tranny revenge and more having a chronic disease and being really pissed off about it.
I can get behind that to be honest. If there was some group of assholes responsible for all my medical problems and I had new bodyhorror powers to go murder them with I'd be down for that shit.

>>54979405
>>54979357

It was intended that the heroes would be perceived as hypocrites, while the Beasts would be noble pcs. It was supposed to be ironic view from the perspective of the monsters who don't deserve their bad rap. The problem was that readers found nothing redeeming about Beasts, and identified why heroes wanted to kill them.

If you recall MattMc was quite irritated about the early comments (and ignored all the bad feedback from the draft leak), and only relented when posters who obviously shared his politics began to realize that the minorities he was supposedly championing were indeed portrayed as awful people. Revenge fantasy or not, Beast was a bridge too far.

Unfortunately, rather than spend the time for more comprehensive rewrites, Matt added "teaching lesson" as a setting band-aid (and to try to actually give Beasts a motivation). It was too little and badly integrated. His comments about the upcoming Beast Players Guide hint that he might try to fix some of the problems, but I think he's still to close, and he might end up making things worse/

>>54979405
If Conviction and Loyalty are actually opposed, I think that part of Beast's issues will be avoided right there. Having to choose between doing what you want and doing what other people want gives Deviant a thousand times more moral complexity than Beast, which only has 'doing what's tasty'. It'll still be a metaphor oppression, but my bet is that it will be more specifically about abuse/neglect victims than about sexual or identity politics, in the same vein as Changeling. Deviants had bad things happen to them not because of who or what they are, but because they were unlucky and helpless.

>>54979478
lolwut, Black Lives Matter is in CtD somehow?

>>54979492
>having a chronic disease and being really pissed off about it.
>I can get behind that to be honest

That would be fine, unless it became the "differently-abled" revenge fantasy rpg.

While Dave's as left as anyone at WW, he tends to avoid preachiness at the expense of good storytelling (e.g., Mage 2e). I'm cautiously optimistic, and if eve he goes full Matt/Brucato, I think I'll take a little break from WW.

>>54979544
>Deviant will be more specifically about abuse/neglect victims than about sexual or identity politics, in the same vein as Changeling.

In fact, my primary concern about Deviant is that its primary themes too closely parallel Changeling's abuse and escape metaphors.

Deviant will really need to distinguish itself early in development.

>>54979697
They are weaker than every splat but hunters so that is noteworthy I guess

Clairvoyant Mastery (Style, • to •••••)
Prerequisite: Wits •••, Occult ••, Clairvoyance (•••)

(•): Add your dots in this Style to the activation roll for Clairvoyance. If you achieve an Exceptional Success, you may have your Clairvoyance last for the whole scene, and switch it on and off at will (but not switch the place you are viewing).

(••): You achieve an Exceptional Success with 3 Successes. You may also change locations you are viewing reflexively without rolling or spending Willpower again a number of times per scene equal to Wits. Each time after that requires 1 Willpower point.

(•••): You no longer need to use tools or meditation to activate Clairvoyance, but using them anyway grants the Informed Condition about the location you are viewing. You may also use Clairvoyance across the Gauntlet, modified by its local rating. AT ST discretion, you may also remotely visualize realms like the Astral, Hedge and Underworld if you have a sufficiently strong connection to them.

(••••): You no longer need to spend Willpower to activate Clairvoyance for the first time in the scene, but may spend it anyway for a +3. You may also extend your remote visualization to anyone within your immediate presence.

(•••••): You may combine Clairvoyance with other Supernatural Merits, at ST discretion. These other Supernatural Merits require their own rolls and Willpower expenditure. If you extend your remote visualization to other people with Supernatural Merits, they may use you as a channel to activate their own powers, but do so at a -1 penalty due to the indirect connection. At ST discretion, characters with a Major Template may also use you as channel to activate their powers, with the same penalty.

>>54979748
> Weakest supernaturals

Out of curiosity, how do we know this? Is there a preview that showed us some of their abilities?

So what does happen to werewolves/the spirit during a solar eclipse?

There has to be fluff on this, but I don't remember.

>>54979790
It was stated they would be weaker by one of the devs.

But then again I don't think they intended geist to be one of the strongest, and their play testing seems to suck these days.

>>54979790
>Out of curiosity, how do we know this?

Dave's mentioned this on forums a few times, particularly in the context of Mage Supremacy discussions and his aversion to powergaming.

Deviants have the potential to be very powerful, but the inherent downsides and the resources of the hunting organization will offset any power gains. Dave used the example of the Hulk. He very powerful, but dangerous to everyone and everything around him and he's hunted by the US military.

Dave also discussed power level in his first Deviant Open Development blog pose.

http://theonyxpath.com/deviant-deviant-the-renegades/

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>>54975989
You have no idea what they're talking about.

That's an artifact of the pre-WWII days. That conflict drew the Norwegian and German Get into the service of the Wyrm and after that conflict, the tribe took a long, hard look at itself in the mirror.

>Citation in pic.

The Get are a pure meritocracy

>>54976124
Grog here! Old WW was a fucking trigger factory and they weren't afraid to go transgressive places and while they were always CLEARLY liberal, they were always careful not to insult a chunk of their potential audience. You could have run a country club republican Glass Walker or a southern revival tent Chorister and put them in a heroic role and not have been contradicted by canon.

>>54979836
Basically You scale how much power you want. On the low low, you're pretty much human but have a small quirk, and just 'some guys' looking for you. On the high end, you're an escaped military project and the government is coming for your ass all million dollar man style.

>>54974866
>>54974888
>>54974915
>>54974933
CITATION FUCKING NEEDED!

However, they have always kept their male metis because it would shame them to fob them off on another tribe.

>>54979905
dude no one cares about your femdom pegging fantasies. go buy a hooker already

>>54979863
>they weren't afraid to go transgressive places

I think it was more a case of the WW writers being the 1990's SJW-equivalents, but also being so young and inexperienced, and also falling into the acceptable "magical minorities" thinking of the times that's no longer acceptable today, that their attempts at seeming righteous and liberal often resulted in caricature, at best, and unintended ridiculous bigotry, at worst.

>>54978989
No, it's a metaphor for that guy. I actually like that passage and that section of the book because it lets people give a little love back to the book.

>>54979942
That's not a citation.

>>54979942
Nigger, they made fun of those people back in the day.

>>54979986
Also meant for >>54979950

>>54979986
>citation
It's called porn or putting it nicely fanfic.

What would Deadpool be in WoD and CoD? In the latter, he would probably be a Deviant, but could also be a Sin-Eater (with Cable as his Geist), a Changeling or a Demon. Heck, he could even be a Werewolf, complete with healing factor and Fetish weapons/gadgets. Or at least a Wolf-Blooded with the Tell that gives the healing factor.

>>54980378
Probably a deviant given his powers having that fancy draw back of flattening out his brain, and the only thing keeping it in check being his cancer.

>>54980042
Still waiting on that citation.

Here, I'll throw you a bone. Check the Black Furies tribe book. While being born into a tribe helps, you have to be accepted by that tribe's totem and Pegasus will not anoint a non-metis male, full stop.

As an example, what do rat and Fenris have in common? They take in anyone.

What makes Fenris different from Rat? Fenris has standards, Rat doesn't.

>>54979836
Geist is literally only strong because of boneyard

>>54980635
Why are you so obsessed with hyenas? when did your mother stop breast feeding you, 18?

Is Vampirism worth it in CofD? Would people go out of their way to become one of the damned if they were offered the chance?

>>54981238
Vampirism is still the quickest, easiest and most accessible path to immortality and immediate power.

Sure it's not the most reliable, the most powerful, the most secure, and comes with some heft downsides. But given more people can't really just be "offered" most of the alternatives, it's still worth it. Probably.

>>54981238
>Go out of their way
>Offered the chance
Pick one

>>54980805
I made my bones with Aspel. You're going to have to try a lot harder.

>>54981420

I can't believe you stole Aspel's bones.

>>54981238
>Is Vampirism worth it in CofD?
No.
No food.
No sunlight.
Forever a violent addict.
Absolutely fucked politics.
Practically every vampire is a fucking bastard.
Weakest supernatural in a world of supernaturals.
No magic force to keep your species secret.
Very popular in human culture.
As are their weaknesses. Fire, wooden stakes, sunlight.
Most likely to be exterminated.
Gay human crowds.
And all of that for as long as you can avoid being killed.

>>54981490
>Weakest supernatural in a world of supernaturals.
C'mon. We all know that's not true.

>>54981510
They're not particularly powerful compared to, say, mages or werewolves.

>>54981516
Nothing is particularly powerful compared to Mages. And compared to wolves, vampires still pack quite a punch. And they shine in the realm of mental warfare, outclassed only by Mages. Also, between natural resistances, ability to bump your physical scores out of the gate, all of the physical disciplines being really efficient, ability to easily replenish their resources in combat situation vamps are scary.

>>54981490
>>54981510

1e changelings are weaker than vampires, but they'll probably get a 2e power bump like every other 2e splat.

>>54981490

>Vampires
>Splat most likely to be friends with Beasts

>Need we say more

>>54981569
They could still summon all of a vampire's banes at will, from becoming wood and putting your fist through there heart to surrounding your self with fire, to shooting pure sunlight. Also get stupid high dice pools and several ways to get automatic successes (Or exceptionals).

>>54981510
They MIGHT be stronger than Changelings, but that's still bottom 2.

>>54981587
Yes, vampires are the laughing stock of the world of darkness. It's the one thing all supernaturals can agree on.

>>54981490
>No magic force to keep your species secret.

No Lunacy, but other helpful stuff like rewriting memories, being difficult to photograph identifiably, turning effectively invisible or appearing to be someone else...

There's also the stuff that pushes people to keep the secret willingly, like ghouling, Majesty, and Swooning.

>>54981654

Most splats have similar advantages and abilities besides their supernatural secret-keeping powers, to say nothing of other obvious inherent capabilities that help keep their existence a secret such as being able to go outside during the day, comfortably consume food and do things like breathe and sweat without expending resources and effort.

>>54981598
Hunters are weaker than both of those. And until 2e Vampiers are FAR stronger than Changelings. 2e wolves are only slightly stronger than them.

>>54981739
>Hunters are weaker than both of those
They aren't supernatural.

>>54981759
Some of them are explicitly supernatural. Others become supernatural. And others still use technology that emulates supernatural effects.

>>54981784

At least as of 1e, Hunters are considered by the WW developers and authors to be demonstrably weaker as whole than any other gameline pc splat. This is why it's recommended that Hunters stick with their own monster system even when ST's and players have the books for the other gamelines.

>>54981717
The kiss feels like bliss, plus it is food.
I think vampires are okay passing up a bacon burger if they get to feel like they are having sex every time they are feeding.

Natural Supernatural cover effects from strongest to weakest:

Demons
Changelings
Mages
Vampires
Prometheans

Ain't got one?
Geist?

Who cares, no one plays them:
Mummy
Beasts

I miss anybody?

>>54981823
Blush of Life lets you eat, if that's the fucking vampire dealbreaker for you fatties.

>>54981823
Ah shoot. Werewolves.

Between Mages and Vampires.

>>54981809
I do know that. Which is why they are weaker than vamps. As are changelings and Promethans (although I did not read through the 2e yet).

>>54981832
>Blush of Life lets you eat
Do you have to purge the food later? Does it even taste good?

>>54981843
Prometheans will completely shit on vampires and beasts will shit on both with the right lair trait

>>54981843
>have to count hunters as being a supernatural like the others in order to blunt the pain of being one of the weakest supernaturals

>>54981823
Mages should be first. The Sleeping Curse prevents anything from being known.

Hell, Manhattan constantly shifts but people never even realize it.

>>54981907
>assuming I'm a vampfag and not a demondude whose just arguing on the principle

>>54981883
Not the 1e ones. Once again, not sure how much changed in 2e. But I doubt it's that much.

>>54981823

Vampires have no automatic, species-wide supernatural protection against discovery. That's the reason why the Masquerade is the First Tradition. In fact, overuse of supernatural powers like memory wipes against individuals actually risks discovery rather than ensuring secrecy.

Demons, changelings, mages, werewolves and others have pervasive supernatural abilities that automatically hide them from the masses, as well as being naturally able to emulate normal human activities with little to no difficulty (heck, mages are still human).

>>54981809
No, DaveB recommends that.

The Dread Powers system isn't because it is hard for Hunters to fight the other splats.

Dread Powers are so you can just own Hunter and the Core, and still be able to fight against any type of monster by just building it with Dread Powers.

Hunters don't have to be strong enough to fight any of the other monsters one on one. They don't fight fair, and in their setting if it is a one on one fight they know they've probably already lost.

Hunters world doesn't look to bag a whole pack of werewolves. You plan to take down A werewolf, and then the survivors go home and pat themselves on the back before the next part. If their whole extended family shows up, you were already screwed as far as the narrative goes.

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What would you play in a Werewolf game? Apocalypse or Forsaken.

>>54981945
a mage

>Apocalypse
dreamspeaker
>Forsaken
thyrsus, duh

>>54981918
Nah. Without some other supernatural power to pierce it, or permission from the Changeling, you can never see that a changeling isn't human.

Humans USUALLY forget, but they don't all forget, and some are sleepwalkers and won't forget. So that knocks them down.

Demons have a perfect disguise, and outside of purposely dropping it, they won't be seen through.

So Mage gets bumped to third.

>>54981928
Vampires have the Kiss (which makes people forget) and they have their lack of reflection/showing up in pictures. Those are natural protection against discovery, and more than Prometheans (whose power also tends to draw people TO them instead of away). So that's why they are so low. But it is still something.

Also
>Mages are still human
>Doubt

>>54981945
I wouldn't play an apocalypse game.
Forsaken is fun.

>>54981930
So much this. Hunters can take down other splats, and by design yes they're the weakest, it's the point.

And dread powers are a really fun and good way to be able to fight whatever you want without the ST tearing his hair out. Hunter just isn't a good game for white-rooming, since the whole point is in a straight up fight you're at a major disadvantage. You pick the monsters off 1 by 1, you lead them into traps, you abuse every weakness they got. Prep and smart Hunters can be really dangerous.

It's pretty fun, more of you guys should try being the underdog.

Geist 2e info part 1:
Premise:
"It's still the same game about people who have died and come back thanks to the intervention of a spooky ghost-thing... but aside from that it's probably going to see the most mechanical differences compared to its first edition of any CofD game so far. Celebration of existence is still a key part of the game, but it’s also a horror game, just less internal than in Vampire. It is HOPEFUL. Every ghost story is, at its core, a tragedy--someone died, and they left something important unfinished. Injustices were done and never righted. Lovers torn from one another. Geist is a game about looking at that state of affairs and saying "No." And then being able to back that up with action."

Inspirational media: "Mama and ParaNorman. Make of that what you will."

Bound Terminology
"Bound" = general term for "people who accepted the Bargain and returned from death mystically bonded to a geist." These Bound are truly alive and have heartbeats, need to eat and other such bodily functions of the living. As such, their blood will sustain a Vampire. They also have something in the place souls usually are, so they aren't soulless exactly (no more an empty vessel than vampires). the Geist's Bargain with the Bound does not give it any hold on the soul of the Bound, which departs at or shortly after death. A Bound may get have children, but those children are not affected by the Geist inhabiting their parent or parents.
Also, like all major supernatural templates, being a Bound prevents you from awakening or being embraced. Short of archmage levels of power the major templates may not be altered nor removed.
"Sin-Eater" = specific term for those Bound who fall into the player character-suitable splats, generally trying to help ghosts pass on and not solely using their powers for personal gain. (Much like “Uratha” means all werewolves and "Forsaken" means "this specific group the game is built around playing.").

>>54981420
>shitposting the shit poster
at some point you have to understand that you actually like the taste of bait anon. Otherwise you will never grow past you larva stage

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>>54981959

>>54981959

You are playing Werewolf with a Werewolf PC option, not Mage. Try again.

>>54981985

>I wouldn't play an apocalypse game.

Why?

>Forsaken is fun.

What do you find fun about it?

>>54981930

"Witches" and vampires created with the Hunter 1e dread power system are much weaker than gameline analogs.

Even with their own system, as you acknowledge, it's an accomplishment if an entire cell bags a single werewolf. A pack created with Forsaken rules would wipe the floor against even most Tier 3 Hunters without much effort (and combatting mage cabals or demons could best be described as suicide).

>>54981996
Geist 2e info part 2
Powers: 2nd edition powers are not called Manifestations (that’s the 2nd Ed. Ephemeral entities abilities now, and Sin-Eaters don't have them), they are called Haunts. Keys are still a part of powers, but work differently than before (the old way made too many athematic powers and the grid system made adding new powers too difficult in 1st Edition).
Pyre-Flame Key & Haunts of Caul & Rage are specifically mentioned in reference to Ghost Rider from Agents of Shield this season.

Plasm: Big pool of this still. It is a by-product of ghosts spending Essence on Manifestations. Sin-Eaters can consume plasm (preferably in a manner resonant with his own death); otherwise it would sublimate shortly after being collected. UNLESS, a sin-eater eats a ghost directly. As the Bargain makes Sin-Eaters partially ghostly, they can physically eat ghosts, EVEN if it isn’t manifesting. They convert the ghost’s ephemera into Plasm as it’s being eaten.


Ceremonies: Act much like Werewolf Rites in 2nd Edition.

Archetypes: “You’ll see some familiar bits, though maybe not quite in the context you’d expect."
Considering the Dark Eras 2 Kickstarter specifically mentions Reapers as antagonistic toward Sin-Eaters, whatever form this axis takes will not include Reapers in 2nd edition.

Thresholds: 1st Ed. Thresholds really only define your starting point. Posts suggest they will now have more mechanical meaningfulness. Travis mentioned that he loves the skull symbol of the Torn though (we should see that again I hope!).

>>54982002
I don't know or want to know oWoD. I'm nWoD/CofD only.

Nothing against Apocalypse. I'm just not going anywhere near oWoD.

>>54982009
Geist 2e info part 3
Thresholds: 1st Ed. Thresholds really only define your starting point. Posts suggest they will now have more mechanical meaningfulness. Travis mentioned that he loves the skull symbol of the Torn though (we should see that again I hope!).

Krewes: still the name for a group of Bound. They still build their own mystery religion. Geists no longer transform into, nor reveal mythological aspects. Geists only figure into mystery religions IF that’s what the krewe builds it around. "Krewe," only became "associated with the Bound and their religion in the 1920s, during a major resurgence of Sin-Eater culture around New Orleans, and it wasn't particularly widely used outside the Americas until decades later." “archaeology” & digging in to past of past krewes is HUGELY Important.

Synergy: “New rules for it? You might say that.” (will be different from 1E Geist & from Deviant the Renegade) Plan is to make Geists more mechanically relevant

Safe Place Merit: Cenote is still the name of the Safe Place add on merit for Geist so far.

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>>54982021

Why do you feel that way?

Also, what do you find fun about WtF?

>>54981969
>Changeling masques
>Demon covers

>Mage uses Unveiling

>>54982031
Geist 2e info part 4
Mementos: can be a ghost’s resolved Anchor, an artwork about death created by a sin-eater, etc. Deathmasks are now somewhat separate and don’t fit under the Memento definition. They're still objects touched by the energies of death, still have Keys, and still have weird little side-effects. There are no longer five wholly different kinds of Memento with different mechanics for each. They're also a lot more integral to Sin-Eaters' powers, so you have a lot of incentive to seek them out and carry them around.

Geists: Pretty direct beings. Not big on dissimulation. They are Rank 3+ ghosts. Most gain rank 3+ by drinking deep from one of the rivers of the Underworld. Anchors the ghost to a CONCEPT of death instead of just their old life’s anchors (harder to blast them back to Underworld once they escape, which they may do through a Bargain, by a Gate, or other means. Lost of Geist have no Bargain-host). Exceptions: A) 1st person interred in any cemetery rises as a geist to serve as its guardian. B) Some occult rituals might do the trick, C) sometimes it just happens with no clear cause. Geists CAN use the Claimed Manifestation on a living person or a dead body IF it knows that manifestation. Bargain is a separate manifestation. (ephemeral entities have Twilight Form and a number of additional Manifestations equal to Rank). Geist-claimed ARE NOT THE SAME as Bound. Topic for the future books: Multiple Geists Bargaining with a single Bound. Geist CANNOT possess you, as part of the Bargain. They are also DEFINITELY NOT 100% under the Bound’s control

>>54982021

How can you dislike something if you don't know anything about it?

>>54982051
Who said I dislike it?

>>54982063

Outright aversion is a pretense for dislike.

>>54982034
Cause owod werewolf is a blatant male power fantasy. Included with forced breeding and murdering whole families for being tainted. Being too on the nose just ruins the flavor.

>>54982048
Geist 2e info part 5
Ghosts:
Rank 2 ghosts are no more limited in faculties than anyone else trapped in twilight for potentially decades, forced to watch their loved ones out of reach. They are effectively traumatized people, not automatons or recordings.
Rank 1 ghosts are fully sapient people, but their sense of self is eroded so much they are stuck in a loop reliving key events over and over (fugue state), often but not always their own death. Often don’t know they’re dead.
Integrity <7 at death results in Rank 1 ghosts, if any ghosts. Integrity 7-9 at death results in Rank 2 ghosts if any ghosts.
Integrity 10 at death leaves no ghosts at all.
Dave Bradshaw has mentioned rules for playable ghosts (perhaps much like the rules for spirits in the Pack and WtF2?), perhaps as a second entry in the Supporting Cast appendix

Underworld: there are more rivers than the Five mentioned previously. 11 are named in Promethean 2nd edition. Sin-Eaters are no longer forced to spend time in the Underworld.
Antagonists: Ghosts are a key part of the game, but NOT in the antagonists chapter. Abmortals from 1st Edition doesn’t make it into the book at all (maybe in the sourcebooks). Antagonists are as yet unnamed, but there are at least two. “Beware of ghosts bearing masks.” One of the unnamed antagonists can “hear about you” when you “hear about it.” Possible angry ghost antagonist anchored to their own name (Bloody Mary) if Night Horrors book happens. Death Lords are getting renamed “Chthonic Gods.” (name connotes lowly, twisted, earthy, dirty, foul things that cling to others). The idea of having a Bargain with Chthonic Gods instead of Geists is a topic better suited for a sourcebook. Reapers are mentioned as antagonists to Sin-Eaters in the Great War era of Dark Eras 2 in the kickstarter page for Dark Eras 2 (assuming this means whatever replaces "Archetypes" as an axis splat in GtSE will not include "Reaper" anymore).

>>54982040
Demon cover would typically trump unveiling magic. Mage needs to beat a spoof roll from the Demon's cover. If he doesn't, then the unveiling spell will go off correctly, and say that it didn't find anything abnormal.

Demons have THE strongest supernatural cover in world of darkness. Outside of a really unlucky roll for them, they will trump any form of detection, even mages.

Changeling masque would be stripped by unveiling.

But on the other hand, as soon as a mage uses a spell, the demon and changeling would know they are a mage... without even the need for a spell. So... yeah that doesn't really mean much. That's supernatural combating supernatural.

Changeling and Demons both beat mages when it comes to hiding from mortals.

>>54982075
Apocalypse is pure shit thematically and mechanically. They were too overpowered way to bloated with the all the shitty tribes for example gay tribe, dyke tribe, Irish tribe. The metaplot was silly and it clashed with the rest of the oWod.

>>54982096
Not to mention than the demon would proceed to kick the mages ass.

>>54982075
Not really.
I like cofd because it is one unified system, I know it well, and it is my go to system for horror/modern games.

I don't use any other system for this type of game. So I just don't look to learn anything else.

But that said. I hear that oWoD is often not compatible with itself, there is a heavy metaplot that would require a lot of backreading, and I have never liked the sound of any of the fluff for any of it. Technocracy, The Wurm (or whatever), the other vampire stuff. It just hasn't sounded interesting enough to look into it.

>>54982112
If the Demon went loud, sure. Though he best hope the Mage wasn't prepared for that.

>>54982096
I always ruled it as a Clash of Wills. I see nothing to suggest that a Demon's Cover will trump a Mage. Whoever has the better roll wins.

>>54981945
A Russian male ballerina Shadow Lord. Ballet is his coping mechanism for his rage plus it's so physically demanding and competitive that you can get some good abuse based drama.

Also for comedic effect youre bound to get some of the more macho characters to crack jokes at his expense.

>>54982120
A demon doesn't have to go Loud to kick a mages ass unless they were a master

>>54982048
>1st person interred in any cemetery rises as a geist to serve as its guardian.

That has the potential to cause problems.

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>>54982112
>>54982161

>>54982134
That was our first idea here in this thread as well, but that just isn't how it works, if you go by the book.

A spoof doesn't clash. It isn't trying to make the spell not work. It allows the spell to work, and rewrites what answer it gives. It even states in the rules that this works against supernatural effects. It pretty much gives this exact scenario.

So to give the example so everyone understands it.

Mage uses whatever to try see what a Demon is.
Demon's cover naturally spoofs this (the Demon doesn't know what caused this, but knows someone is causing a spoof)
If the spoof succeeds, the Mage spell succeeds, and says it doesn't find anything abnormal.

So because of the way it works, the Mage doesn't get any sense their spell isn't working right. Their spell isn't clashing, so they don't get the automatic clash sense. And on top of that since their spell says it worked and the person is human, the Mage walks away thinking the spell is correct, since otherwise they would know something was off.

It is a really powerful tool.

Now if the spoof failed, I would say maybe you could do a clash? But at the point of the spoof failing, it might just be that the demon withstands it like normal and that's that.

>>54982161
I'm sure you think that, Anon.

>>54982180
Fuck off magefag no it isn't. Mages are only strong in theory most of the time. Whenever there is a white room battle the other splat uses an average example. The magefag always uses a mage with all maxed arcana max reach full yantras rotes and praxes and never have to worry about paradox

>>54982048
>1st person interred in any cemetery rises as a geist to serve as its guardian.

Couldn't an evil occultist deliberately engineer that situation as a contingency plan? Wouldn't that mean that ancient egyptian pharoahs and other such opulent kings would come back as Geists?

>>54982220
This baiting is starting to get obnoxious.

>>54982195
Interesting. I guess Mages will have to resort to indirect usages of Prime then.

>>54982180
>>54982233
>Mage supremacy has gotten so bad that mere fact that someone wouldn't suck mage dick is automatic grounds for bait

>>54982228
I mean, that sounds about right anyway doesn't it? I feel like if you go into the tomb of a pharoh, you are probably going to find a terrifying ghost there.

And remember, ghosts aren't like a soul. They are like an echo of who that person was. So you are just fighting the faded memory of an important individual.

>>54982220
whenever a magefag posts their mages gain one arcana and one gnosis You should stop now before they get angry

>>54982220
>The magefag always uses a mage with all maxed arcana max reach full yantras rotes and praxes and never have to worry about paradox

This has never been the case.

>>54982096
>But on the other hand, as soon as a mage uses a spell, the demon and changeling would know they are a mage..

How?

>>54982251
Yeah. Like, I don't really care about mage vs demon fights, that is all whatever.

But they made the Demon package pretty air-tight when it comes to pretending to be human. Demons are always a super-minority among creeps I think. I want to say they are down there with Prometheans in how rare they are. So the fact that they can hide well is important to their core identity as 'super spies behind enemy lines'.

Considering the god-machine has cults built up that probably have Mages running them, it would all be for nothing if a Mage could just use mage-sight and overcome covers.

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>>54981872
1. Yes, but it's nothing bulimics don't do.
2. Probably yes. It tastes bad when Blush is NOT up. It doesn't say right out that it tastes good or normal with the Blush, only that it can be kept down (until later). 1e is no clearer, but does say that vampires can use the Blush to have sex for pleasure, so I'd think they can eat food for pleasure too.

>>54982288
I think he's assuming that the Mage is making a blatant display of sorcery. They wouldn't be able to tell if a Mage is using subtle magic, not unless they can sense it.

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>>54982284
Ok newbie guess it's your first time on 4chan then. New posters have to report to /d before they can post more than 3000 characters

>>54982288
Because they aren't sleepers, so they wouldn't forget?

Sorry, the implication was that it was a more 'vulgar' spell (I know that term isn't used anymore)

I didn't mean they would automatically be able to tell. Just that any normal signs that sleepers would forget because of the curse, Demons and Changelings would be like 'did that guy just throw a fireball?'

>>54982195
I agree with everything here, as long as Prime isn't involved. To flaunt truths and subdue lies is kind of its purview.

That said, Demon was released before Mage 2e, so it's an open topic.

>>54982284
Not that guy but you are either blind or haven't been in these threads in a while. That is absolutely how magefags white room either that or they blatantly lie like the guys who claim a 2 dot gravity manipulation will send a uratha to the moon or some shit.

>>54982347
All I have seen is "this mage has this, that, this n' that. and some of that!"

Not "THIS MAGE HAVE EVERYTHING"

I have been here for months. Mages don't need 5+ Arcana to be ludicrously powerful. They need sufficient dots and creativity.

>>54982337
Demons don't tell lies they tell truths dumbass.

>>54982363
Prime isn't solely about lies or truths, friend. It's both. Also magic, RAW magic.

>>54982358
>All I have seen is "this mage has this, that, this n' that. and some of that!"

There was that multi-day argument about how mages could turn an environmental protection spell into 'I am immune to kinetic energy forever'

>>54982372
What the fuck does that have to do with what I said?

>>54982337
Demons can even beat Prime.
Like >>54982363 said, Demons have another power that makes them count as telling the truth.

So you go through the same steps as before.
Demon tells a lie
Mage uses prime to check it.
Demon spoofs, if it passes they count as telling the truth because of liar's tongue
Mage prime spell counts it as legit.

>>54982377
The kinetic shield? That was pretty funny. It's entirely doable. Immunity is a sure thing, but only up to Aggravated reduced by Potency.

>>54982321

Knowing and Unveiling are simple one dot Practices. Along with the incredible abilities of Mage Sight, is the reason why mages are the "detective splat."

Looking at a demon or changeling is a far cry from a fireball, and would hardly be considered "vulgar" magic, even with the use of many types of Yantras.

As for Changelings, if David Hills playtest rules on the topic are still reliable, the Mask is not nearly as impressive or foolproof in 2e.

It's a shame the Demon Storyteller's Guide didn't answer some of the clash of powers questions that have arise, particularly with respect to supernal magic like Prime abilities. Hopefully these crossover questions will be addressed in the Mage FAQ is ever releases or the Contagion Chronicles.

>>54982383
No. Prime won't tell you that a Demon is lying. It will tell you what it's saying isn't true.

>>54982386

>It's entirely doable.

It's very much in a 'Needs GM adjudication' grey area, as the spell being used as the basis wasn't really intended for dealing with attacks and changing 'Intrinsic properties of a physical material' to 'Complete immunity to an energy' is some serious steps.

>>54982377
Don't forget the I can send people to the moon with apprentice control gravity or the time armor makes me immune to getting shot forever nonsense.

>>54982386
>Immunity but only up to Aggravated reduced by Potency

Is that all at only two dots in Forces...

>>54982402
But it is true.
The Demon's power rewrites the code of reality to make it count as true. So prime will see it as true.

Really, like I said, it is airtight.

If you can't beat that spoof roll, you're kind of sol.

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Oh no. Here we go again.

The "I don't like what mages can do" crowd.

>>54982298
I wouldn't make Demons as rare as Prometheans, because even as secretive as they are, they manage to form Agencies larger than PC groups.

>>54982398
>Hopefully these crossover questions will be addressed in the Mage FAQ is ever releases

Why in gods name would you ever want to have mages in a crossover?

>>54982358
Spirit 3
Death 3
Mind 3
Forces 3
Prime 3
Time 3
Gnosis 3 for more yantras

Arcana = 4exp
Gnosis = 5exp
Assume start with Gnosis 3 and 6 arcana. 12dots of arcana bought. = 48 exp points

>>54982427
It's more like we don't like when mages change and twist the rules in order to break the game.

>>54982423
It actually doesn't re-write reality. It only 100% convinces the person that it is, in fact, truth.

I don't like to nitpick, but that's what it is.

>"see that toad? It's actually a giraffe"

>>54982443
I have seen no such thing.

Discussing Creative Thaumaturgy is just that.

>>54982469

Part of the issue with discussing creative thaumaturgy is that it's major limiting factor is 'Can you get the GM to agree it's reasonable'. Something that doesn't turn up much in online talks due to a lack of said GM.

>>54982469
So I guess you weren't here when mage fags were claiming that a life mage can stop a beings heart from beating with only a 2 dot ruling spell

>>54982423
>The Demon's power rewrites the code of reality
That's the gig of Awakening. The Supernal is the code of all reality.

The God-Machine is more materialistic.

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>>54982407
>Needs GM adjudication' grey area, as the spell being used as the basis wasn't really intended for dealing with attacks and changing 'Intrinsic properties of a physical material' to 'Complete immunity to an energy' is some serious steps.

Why, other than "crossover balance?"

Mage 2e was very explicitly designed to not have any artificial limiters or "balance" on the Arcana and Practices. That inevitable means that certain Arcana/Practice combinations will be incredibly useful, far more than their dot level might otherwise indicate.

Indirect and/or creative attacks are also encouraged to maximize the potential of the Arcana. That's why you can, and should, send an adversary thousands of feet in the air by negating or reversing gravity rather than fireball him in the face.

Mages are power players in the CofD by design. Of course, not all mages are masters, nor do they each have or or most of the Arcana at their disposal. However, even newbie mages are very dangerous, particularly those who choose to be a Disciple in one of their ruling Arcana.

I hate Magefags.

I hate the people who complain about them even more.
Jesus Christ, just stop.

>>54982490
>Assuming its not the same shit poster

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>>54982534
The second stage of Mage Hate: Paranoia

>>54982515
>Why, other than "crossover balance?"

Because it's stretching the base spell far beyond it's intended role. It's like watching members of the Touhou fandom go 'X has power over Y so they can do anything I can even remotely justify as within that'

But this goes back to 'GM adjudication'. Some GMs might rule it's fine, some might say it's stretching too much.

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>>54982526
Yeah sure thing buddy I just bet you hate magefags

>>54982526
(You)

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>>54982493
>That's the gig of Awakening. The Supernal is the code of all reality.
>The God-Machine is more materialistic.

>>54982554
>>54982544
(You)

>>54982423
The Demon can convince the Mage what he is saying is 'truth', except that doesn't actually make it truth. This is the perfect lie, not the reworking of reality.

A Mage can differentiate between the two, but it's a tricky endeavor.

>>54982558
My point being proven, thank you.

>>54982572

If the mage is perfectly convinced it's the truth, wouldn't he disbelieve any spell telling him otherwise as one he messed up in some way?

>>54982558
God, I fucking hate Awakening lore. It just HAS to crap over everything.

I'm fucking off for another week. Once the kindergarteners bring out the DaveB citations it's over.

">>54982546
>intended role

"Kinetic Shield" is a Shielding Practice that's intended to provide immunity to phenomena under the purview of the Arcana. We even have an example spell, Alchemist's Touch, on which to base a Forces-equivalent spell that can be converted nearly word for word.

Again, your argument against the spell is effectively "this spell is too powerful," which is basically it's not "balanced," something Mage rules don't care about except internally, where Kinetic Shield is hardly unbalancing when employed against other mages who generally have an array of non-kinetic attacks and other abilities at their disposal.

>>54982428
Yeah, but all agencies are considered temporary aren't they? Because they usually burn to the ground shortly after becoming big enough to matter.

But I agree, probably more common than Prometheans, but not by a ton.

Prometheans are supposed to be one of the most rare, after all. Like, rarely more than a few dozen on a continent I think? Some ridiculous number.

>>54982597
More like a quirk of thought. If she used the spell the Demon would (*potentially*) be caught red-handed. The Mage more than likely wouldn't bother to even use the spell because she would see no need.

It's easier to fool the mage before it ruins everything. Don't let the gun fire, or else it's too late.

>>54982493
Yeah, that just means that mage is looking at the code of reality, which the demon will rewrite from under him.

There is nothing in Prime that implies it would be able to beat spoofs. Because as far as we know, Spoofing works against any and all attempts to tell the Demon isn't human, including supernatural.

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Is there one of these threads magefags don't shitpost in? Can we talk about interesting mysteries and not someone's Edwin 2.0 self insert?

How about a thorn maze that turns people in furrys while they're in it? What's going on with this mystery?

>>54982619
>on which to base a Forces-equivalent spell that can be converted nearly word for word.

Yes but people were saying it would also include the 'Ignores the usual clash rules because...reasons'. With Alchemist's Touch not mentioning the class rules being unclear if it's intentional or if it's because Alchemist's Touch isn't designed to deal with attacks (Being a dangerous material handling spell)

I'm not arguing it's too powerful, I'm arguing that it's twisting a spell in ways that the original version doesn't seem to have been designed to work with. A round peg in a square hole. Converting an environmental protection spell into an attack protection spell with the exact same wording to take advantage of it not having the usual class provision that attack protection spells are supposed to have under shielding.

>>54982640
Again, this is an open topic, as Demon was released before Mage 2e. Prime *should* work well against a Demon.
This also isn't the first time Mage has trumped things that weren't supposed to be trumped, such as Changeling Contracts.

Demons work material reality, Mages deal with the code.

>>54982572
>The Demon can convince the Mage what he is saying is 'truth', except that doesn't actually make it truth. This is the perfect lie, not the reworking of reality.

One dot in Prime can discern if something is the Truth or not with perfect clarity. It might not be able to pierce the veil of the cover, but the mage will know its a deception.

I personally would rule a Demon's ability to unfailingly lie against a Prime spell to detect Truth as a perfect example of the need for a Clash of Wills in a crossover game. However, an official ruling would be appreciated.

>>54982619
>Kinetic Shield
So you have a fancy magical seat belt, that's nice. Here's a flamethrower.

>>54982572
Yeah, except as has been stated before, the Prime spell cannot give a return that would say that the Demon is abnormal.

A return saying that the Demon is manipulating the truth would make him count as abnormal.

So it will trigger a spoof.

This isn't a targeted thing. ANYTHING that would give a result that would make it seem like the Demon isn't human, even if their body was like abnormally cold for a human, or they weren't breathing right for a human, or their craps were half a pound too heavy to be human, Spoofing triggers if someone investigates it.

This doesn't stop happening just because it is a Prime spell checking ambient stuff around the Demon.

>>54982673
Fire shield then? If we go by Alchemist's Touch, you can add one more purview with a Reach.

So 'Kinetic Shield of Fire Protection', or some other.

Are there any WOD splats that can do 'Being a wizard' without going into Mage's...well, Mageness? Something that would fit into a crossover game a bit better?

>>54982668
>>54982667
What ruling is there to give?
If Mages were written after Demon, Mage had the chance to say in a sidebar that it could be Spoof.

It didn't. So Spoof prevails because it is specifically written to be able to trick supernatural abilities.

>Demons vs Prime

Even DaveB doesn't know the answer to this. He still has yet to get back to us on it. He said he would ask/discuss it with his writing buddy/peer.

Nothing's official about it. Yet. Ask your ST.

>>54966818
The very last session a player who was revealed to be a fetch was killed by his Changeling doppelganger. The players killed the Changeling right back, doing so triggered a contract that summoned his Fae keeper, The Faery proposed ressurecting the dead player in exchange for taking one of the other players back to Arcadia. The dead player who was now a ghost telepathically communicating to one of the other players made a deal where they'd get a Demon of the god machine as a payment instead.

It was quite clever and I got to use many npcs in ways i didn't expect.

>>54982702
I think the answer is pretty clear.

A ruling from OP would just be to say that it isn't working as intended.

Until then, Demon's rules text is perfectly clear, and nothing in Prime implies otherwise.

>>54982685
So you have a fancy magical fireman's jacket with potency armor and fire protection. I still don't under stand why you're happy about having the same protection as the local government can provide it's civil servants

>>54982717
>and nothing in Prime implies otherwise.

...its purview is truth

>>54982686
What are your minimum conditions for "being a wizard"?

>>54982686
>>54982686
I mean, probably Werewolves? But then you get all the shapechanging stuff.

So second choice would be Changeling. But they tend to focus in on an element I think.

Ok, so if Prime can pierce a demon's covers and lies, what else can it do with the raw magic part? i'm new to Awakening.

>>54982702
Actually he already knows that prime doesn't work on a demons spoof but he is too afraid to anger his rabid magefag fanbase

>>54982731
Yeah, and Life mages should be able to tell when something is biological.

Which will also fail.

Who cares what purview it is. It isn't losing because it is the wrong purview, it is losing because Spoof... again... specifically makes the Demon appear as a normal human.

>>54982677
I think it's more the fact that the Demon isn't re-writing the truth to his/her desires. More so his/her lies cannot be ignored.

If the truth is still out there, then it's approachable by an Obrimos/Prime-Mage.

This is the loophole.

>>54982743
Dispel spells, enhance yantras, channel mana, and at the highest levels grant people mystic obsessions, generate Hallows (mana fountains).

It's quite limited, but that's by design.
If they just printed a flat up "cast this spell to get +Potency to your next spell" one, then everyone would see Prime as a mandatory Arcanum.
In the same way they accidentally did with Fate.

>>54982659
>'Ignores the usual clash rules because...reasons'. With Alchemist's Touch not mentioning the class rules being unclear if it's intentional or if it's because Alchemist's Touch isn't designed to deal with attacks

Alchemist's Touch does discuss attacks and has the potential to provide significant defense under certain conditions. The written example is the bullet that still does damage because it's (ironically) the result of kinetic energy, not the bullet itself.

Clash of Wills are used for more esoteric attacks, as the Mind, Spirit and Death Shielding spells demonstrate.

How would you suggest a mage CofW with lava or a bullet?

>>54982752
Life would fail, because it's not based around truth. I completely agree with that. it wouldn't get around a Demon's Cover.

>>54982743
Make green lantern tier constructs dispell any spell/universal counterspell, strike a target with pure arcane might etc.

>>54982076

What a load of horseshit. Either cease the trolling or, if you aren't, go back to tumblr trigglypuff.

>>54982756
Yeah, they can go find any truth they want.

Except that the Demon isn't human. Because outside of passing that spoof roll, your prime magic won't figure that one out.

>>54982769
Absolutely nobody gives a shit about oWod least of all about furry the apocalypse

>>54982732

Being able to throw fireballs/detect things magically/do ritual stuff. A bit more Dresden Files (Well prepared mortals could be a threat despite your power), a bit less Dr Strange.

>>54982776
I think you're missing the point here.

Also
>Except that the Demon isn't human
I fail to see how this has any relevance to the current discussion.

>>54982100

Nice hyperbole.

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>>54982722
>fireman's jacket with potency armor

Potency versus *aggravated* kinetic and fire damage, complete *immunity* to bashing and lethal.

>>54982743
If a Mage can use Prime for
>a) Detect a Demon's Covers
>b) Pierce a Demon's Lies

A Mage can use Fate to twist a Demon's mustache twirling agreements similar to Changelings and their Contracts.

>>54982702
>>54982731
Prime wouldn't tell you a Demon is lying. It will tell you that what they're saying isn't the Truth.

Difference being, since it's not a Mind spell, your spell isn't asking whether or not the Demon believes what he's saying, which is the entire point of Perfect Control; Prime spells ask the Supernal if a specific thing is a fact, which is different.

So, when a Demon says "The sky is green.", and you cast a Prime spell to figure out if he's telling the truth or not, you will get a "no"(assuming the sky is actually blue, like usual), but that doesn't mean the Demon is lying, and a Mind spell will tell you he fully believes that the sky is green.

>>54982752
Demons are biological, senpai. Even if their Demonic Form is a giant clockwork statue with not a single cell of organic tissue in it, as long as they're in Cover, they are biological beings.

>>54982791
It is actually because of the purview of Prime being over truth that demon's lies actually relate.

Because a Demon lying is a supernatural power.
So the prime spell will need to pierce through a supernatural power inherent to the Demon to be able to tell it isn't the truth.
If it realized it was piercing through a spell, then the Prime spell would, as a byproduct, reveal the Demon to not be a normal human.

So spoof applies, because the Spoof is needed to cover for the power of the lie.

If the Mage wasn't using something that was digging deep, then it wouldn't matter. But because Prime would notice it is supernatural in origin, the spoof has to shield the Demon's lie as well.

>>54982787

>tons of Werewolf 20th books funded, including brand new content that is actually decent

>next game ro get a 5th ed. treatment right alongside Vampire

>biggest LARP game after Vampire

But now keep trying to convince yourselves if people give a fuck about garbage like Mage or Mummy.

>>54982776
The Demon is telling a lie. That's not changing the truth of things. You WILL believe the lie. There's no way around that.

Yet the truth of things is still there, isn't it? Prime will be able to grab a hold onto that.

I understand you like the impervious nature of Demons, but there are still things that can work around them.