Is it better to die with honor, or live long and be remembered

>>54963239
Ned died a backstabber a traitor
His foolhardy som got the north raped
The only memeber of his family that has claim worth a shit is a bastard
Starks a shit

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>>54963239
Was getting caught part of his plan?

>>54963334
What is Littlefinger's alignment?

>>54963379
I wanna say Lawful Evil, but I'm sure someone has a better guess

>>54963277
Literally every Stark child has a better claim than Jon does, including Arya. Sansa is in the position to push hers and has an army to back her up too.
Boltons are living on a borrowed time, and the entire North is risking their lives and safety for no other purpose than to put a Stark back in Winterfell with zero benefit for themselves, just because they remember Ned Stark fondly.

>>54963379
He's the definition of Lawful Evil, unless you're gonna say that poisoning people and plotting people's deaths is somehow unlawful.

>>54963239
Ned didn't get to die with honor, nor did he get to live any longer than if he had refused the bargain he was offered.

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>>54963239
What does your legacy need to be?

If you're establishing a dynasty I'd say #1 by far is the most important. A good reputation lets your relatives and allies trade off that for potentially generations.

That said, if it's just you then I'd shoot for #2. No point having people leave flowers on your gravestone if that doesn't help you establish your goals in any way.

Some people value their ideals more than their lives, others don't. It's about as subjective as a thing can be, really.

Imagine if someone kidnapped you and said they'd kill you unless you film yourself fucking a pig.

Some people will do it because life is more important than reputation or ideals. Others won't because they'd rather die than have people they care about see them doing that.

>>54963379

Just barely CE.

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>>54963525

>film yourself fucking a pig.

That episode was fucking glorious

>>54963239
If you're good a being a backstabber, schemer and traitor, people will think you're honorable anyway.

>>54963414
>Literally every Stark child has a better claim than Jon does
Jon has the strongest claim to the iron throne of anyone currently alive. Pretty sure king in the north is aiming low.

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>>54963239
There is no honor in death. There is no legacy left by any life.

>>54963394
>>54963431
He's easily Neutral Evil. Baelish has no problem with completely ignoring laws and social mores if it will get him what he wants, but at the same time he has no particular desire to overthrow that which keeps him protected. He's out for himself, his own personal power above all. Classic NE.

>>54964443
>Alexander the great didn't leave a legacy
>Nor did Charlemagne
>Or any of the great historical figures everyone remembers to this day
>The people who inspire others to act like them.

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>>54964752
As it is, what's in the books is more myths than men. The man who invented the sail is forgotten, because everyone who'd ever heard of him is dead.

Once this planet dies in the blink of a cosmic eye, so too will everything that ever happened on it, as if it never happened at all.

We few who have ever known those names exist in the space between one millisecond and the next.

What kind of legacy is that?

>>54964851
>Because a thing ends, it never existed to begin with
So you are actually a moron. And the man who invented the sail is forgotten because there was no single man who invented it, peoples all over the world created it separately from one another.

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>>54963239
I would be personally insulted if I am not remembered as a long-lived backstabber, schemer, and traitor. Can you even Italy OP?

>>54964869
It might as WELL never have existed.

If a thing having existed and a thing not having existed leads to the same overall outcome (i.e. this planet and everything on it is dead), the fact that it existed doesn't really matter, does it?

>>54964907
By your logic the universe itself doesn't matter, because it will eventually end. Everything matters, even the small things. Because as sapient beings, able to recognize events and things as having importance, choose for them to be important.

>>54964907
This is only true if you're looking at existence from the viewpoint of a being on that kind of scale. Basically, this hypothetical being is able to observe the planet at its creation up to and beyond its eventual "death". So, like a doctor studying an organ in some other person's body, saying that this one individual cell might as well have never existed. Bear in mind that the organ is crucial to that person's health and the cells that make up that organ are crucial to it.

It's a very shallow interpretation of existence.

>>54963334
Ned should have actually listened to LF, as devious as he is, he gave some solid advice and offers.

>>54963239
Do we really need to have yet another thread on this r*ddit-tier show?

>>54963414
>claims

Power resides where men think it resides.

>>54963239

One of the few constants of the Westeros world is the binding reputation of family. Ned Stark's memory and the noble legend which endures beyond his death is a beacon atop a hill, shining radiantly beyond a swamp of rotting shit. The good actions of one Stark could not be erased by all the savagery and evil that was done by an entire house of Lannisters.

>>54965319

Ned's plan to stop the Lannisters from seizing the throne failed because of Littlefinger, whose personal actions were arguably what tore down the last obstacles holding the continent back from full scale civil war. Now Westeros is on the verge of total conquest at the hands of undead monsters.

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>>54963239
Which will let me be remembered for longer?

>>54964717
Nailed it.

>>54965358
And the fucked-up thing about it is that, out of all the shit he's done, betraying Ned was the one thing he did for the pettiest of reasons. Sure, he knew it would start a war, and that said war would give him opportunity after opportunity to come up, but all he really cared about was that Catelyn was getting the Stark dick and not the Little Finger.

>>54966078
>tfw your villain is a cuck

>>54963947
Jon is a bastard. Dany is the only Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne.

>>54968372
>He didn't watch last week's episode
Rhaegar married Lyanna at the tower of joy

>>54964752
>Charlemagne
was an old-ass man when he died

>>54968406
I have not - I refuse to give the Murdochs money.

What happened to Rhaegar's other wife?

>>54968372
Found the bookfag.

>>54968460
Rhaegar got a divorce at some stage. So, sucks to be her.

>>54968460
Show says he divorced her without even her knowing, which makes Rhaegar the most gigantic douchebag in the history of Westeros. I wonder if the show will even adress this?

>>54968490
I do read the books - they're good. I also watch the show.

But to see it in the UK you need to subscribe to Sky which is owned by Rupert Murdoch who I don't want to give money to if I can avoid it. So I buy them when they come out and bingewatch them.

>>54968502
>>54968525
Ouch

Honor is a worthless meme. Dead is always shit there is no such thing as honorable or glorious death it's better to be alive no matter what than to get rekt for some artificial bullshit leaders made up to make sure their meat shields will obey.
What I'm trying to say is Bronn > Ned.

>>54963239
staging death is a scenario I like
>>54963684
poor PM(

>>54963239
>or live long and be remembered as a backstabber, a schemer and a traitor?
The winner writes the history. Right now half of Westeros and all of Essos only heared of him as a traitor who killid his former best friend to get on the throne himself.

>>54963239
Depends on the practical outcomes of your death. Giving your life rather than dishonouring yourself is a good thing imo.

But there's little honour in leaving a bad situation that you could prevent by staying alive. That's when it gets very complicated though.

>>54968646
>The winner writes the history
Do Lannisters seem like winners to you

>be Jamie Lannister
>fuck your sister

https://youtu.be/ccrQObMjg1U

>>54963239
Better to die in S1 then to live to be in in S7.

>>54969094

So long Tyron lives, yes. Tyron is a nicer Tywin.

Dont try to be a great man. Just be a man and let history judge you.

Reminder that the people whom we romantize were often big bastards, Lionheart for example.

>>54963379
Neutral evil. Anything for his own advancement, without discrimination, after all.

>>54963394
He's Neutral Evil. Tywin's Lawful Evil.

Cersei is Chaotic Stupid.

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>>54969115
>Be Jaime Lannister
>Fuck your sister
>Sacrifice your entire life, honor and self-respect for your sister
>Up to and including becoming a whitecloak, which means giving up your inheritance
>It directly leads to you killing a king and becoming the most despised man in Westeros
>Spend a year in captivity, in chains, dirt and shit, being dragged behind an army like a dog
>Lose your sword hand, which is a fate worse than death for a knight
>Finally start to regain semblance of honor after intense self-reflection
>Come back home
>Your father wants you to sacrifice your honor for his ambitions
>Your sister porked every man in the city while you were gone
>Also, she hates your guts now, because she's a narcissistic sociopath
>Probably has something to do with you growing a spine
>At least you have your brother
>Oh wait, he hates you now, and he also kills your father
>Get sent fighting against the Starks
>The exact thing you swore on your honor you will never do again
>Your bitch sister doesn't care, though, and throws a hissy fit when you object
>Now that you can't fight anymore, ever, the only thing left for you to do is peacemaking and diplomacy
>Turns out, you're really fucking good at it.
>Somehow manage to defeat the Starks without shedding a drop of blood
>The moment the siege is over, a letter arrives
>Turns out your bitch sister is on trial for being a whore and a murderer
>She asks for your help

Being Jaime Lannister is suffering

>>54963239
Liars and backstabbers will twist any honor you had in life after they've killed you. The feckless are often possessed of a fragile ego like that.

It is better to act without mercy or fairness against them, destroy them even when they seek to benefit you, and to be open about your reasons why. Save honor for those who have the decency to be open and honest.

All liars are traitors, and the punishment for treason is death.

You dont need to be honorable in life for people to write nice things about you after death. Just pay some artist to make good painting and romantize your history.

>>54963239
A hero dies once, a coward dies a thousand times.

>>54969161
Tywin don't chop up singers.

>>54969423
Death is death, and only Death is eternal.

>>54963239
You will die, or live, as whatever Fate has decreed.

What? Did you think you actually had a choice?

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Here a list of people that would live long with honor. Learn to play smart.

>>54969283

Rob Stark's fault for not taking prison conditions and prison guard detail seriously. Jaime's escape was the catalyst to a lot of nasty shit.

>>54969887
>Escape
He didn't escape, he was let go by Catelyn Stark, who might as well have been the Hand of the king.

>>54969903

The only thing stopping Catelyn Stark and her giantess from setting Jaime loose was the laziest excuses of prison guards to have ever been raised in the North. Jaime was worth an entire country and should have been treated as such.

>>54969939
I don't know, Tyrion's suicide squad (remember them?) failed at breaking Jaime out, so clearly guards couldn't have been that bad.

>>54963239
...but anon, Ed didn't live long, and he was remembered as a backstabber, schemer and a traitor...

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Being a scumbag gets me remembered longer, so I'll go with that.

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>>54964851
>Once this planet dies in the blink of a cosmic eye, so too will everything that ever happened on it, as if it never happened at all.

Nigga you ever heard of a space shuttle?

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>>54963239
Explain to me why it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner.

>>54963239
It is said that dying sucks dicks very badly, which means living long is desirable.

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>>54963239
Why not both?

>>54963379
Chaotic Ladder

>>54969423
That means that a "hero" lives only once. While a coward gets a thousand lives.

I want more lives.

>>54971251
Battle implies that the other men had a fair chance at killing you instead. At dinner usually means underhanded shit that they don't see coming.

>>54969530
Everyone dies, but only a few live honorably.

>>54971251
Winning a war means 1. you can lead and 2. you have lots of people loyal to you, so you can use them to protect your followers.

Poisoning some soup says zilch about ruling ability.

>>54963239
Living long. I'd be a toilet if it meant getting to live forever.

>>54971251
It's a matter of social norms and mores. To betray those mores and norms is to paint oneself as untrustworthy. It inhibits your ability to be diplomatic in the future which can lead to even greater bloodshed down the road, especially if your betrayal of those norms and mores is adopted by others. If nobody can trust one another to follow simple social norms, they cannot trust each other to make and follow truces, alliances, cease fires, etc.

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>>54971945

>>54971945
You, I like you.

>>54963239
It is better to die or live long while only being known by those who you wish had known you, if anyone at all. People who believe they know you do not actually know you, so having no name at all is preferable because that way there are never misunderstandings.

>>54968599

Bronn is one of the most honest characters in the entire series.

>>54969423

Playing cod eh? How many times did you die over that entire game?

Probably over a thousand ya coward.

>>54963239
The honorable are rarely remembered in history, Rather, some backstabbers and marauders are remembered more fondly than others.

>>54963379
Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral depending on your perspective. He's using the system for personal gain, which would point him in the LE direction of the spectrum at the same time he regularly plays allies against each other, kills people, breaks oaths when it is convenient, and otherwise work in the shadows to further his own goals above anything else.

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>>54971945

>>54973768
>Chaotic Neutral
Betrayal is always an Evil act, circumstances notwithstanding.

>>54963379
Neutral Good, he is the heroic lowborn underdog fighting against the corrupt nobility. His actions will ultimately make things better for the common man in the end.

>>54974868
Anon, he IS the nobility.