why warriors have to fall off in late game if mages can become

>>54920704
Have you tried not playing DnD?

>>54920720
tell me one system where mages are not op and warriors become meat to be sacrificed

>>54920704
To be fair,
there was this idea that every being who "level ups" in reality just gets a better tap into the universe,
the only difference being Mages actually understand it , while warriors just channel it into themselves like a sponge.

So both get stronger in the same way which is also different

>>54920739
4e

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>>54920704
>WHY IS MAGIC MAGICAL?!?!?!

>>54920704

In a lot of systems, they do. However, even that isn't enough.

It's a matter of design philosophy and not clinging to a stupid double standard.

The idea that realistic warriors should coexist alongside high fantasy spellcasters is, and has always been, stupid.

If you want high fantasy wizards, then you have high fantasy warriors who can pull just as much ludicrous stuff. If you want realistic warriors, then you're going to have hedge mages and limited casters.

Having super high fantasy warriors along hedge mages would be just as stupid, but for some reason we never really see it go that direction.

>>54920854
dude
mages become astral gods
why cant warriors become things so might that weak swords wont even pass through their skin?

>>54920873
that's what i mean
like mages powerful but warriors powerful as well

>>54920824
/thread

>>54920704
Because giving fighter types similar power growth ends up playing bleach and people would rather not. It's not fair but thats how it is

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>>54920739
Here you go. Mages are almost useless in combat; if you go for a fire mage (probably the most directly useful in combat), you can spend up to 16th level in the bolt of flame spell (at colossal experience cost) so you can..... hit as hard as a dude with a longbow.

http://www.fantasist.net/downloads/DQ3TSRFullRules.pdf

>>54920854
More like
>WHY CAN BRAINS EXCEED HUMAN LIMITATIONS WHEN MUSCLES CAN'T?
There's no reason that a sufficiently advanced warrior couldn't unconsciously tap into magic through combat forms and sheer strength.

>>54921049
its fantasy
it doesnt need to make sense to our world

>>54921049
>4e

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>>54920704
It may be retarded, but I usually handle it like this.

Once a certain point or level is reached (changes with the system), I give martials signature moves, where if they describe a particular action in a fun and ridicuous fashion, they get a bonus to do it again later, adding it as a sort of spell.

For example, our fighter wanted to use his boot knife as a fulcrim to leap across the room in a spinning arc with his greatsword, like the Farron Legion in Dark Souls. He aced the hit roll with a 19 and pulled it off, and later decided after a level up that he wanted that as as his first signature move.

Higher levels means higher bonuses and more moves.

>>54920720
Exalted.

>>54921600
Was meant for >>54920739

>>54921616
say more about it

>>54920704

Just play 4e and rejoice.

>>54921642
They have a general here >>54885193
Basically, Exalted is a super high-powered fantasy game, where all the players are demigods, bestowed with divine power by one of the various top-level deities. Everyone learns "Charms" which are supernatural uses of mundane skills, consuming a regenerating resource "Essence" in the process. In addition to basic charms, there are also rules for Martial Arts and Sorcery, which also consume Essence. Martial Arts are arranged into styles, with martial arts charms forming a sort of skill tree within each style, giving a variety of cool and unique abilities both for in and out of combat. Sorcery is flavored as brute-force bending Essence to your will, as opposed to the natural, intuitive flow associated with Charms. As a result, Sorcery is VERY expensive, and often fairly slow. As a result, it tends not to be very useful in combat, but offers a few potent utility tools (it's great for travel, or for fighting armies of mortals). These differences become more extreme as you continue, where the Martial Arts get more and more powerful and versatile, while the Sorcery just gets more expensive and slower. They achieve fundamentally different effects, but Martial Arts is generally the more wildly applicable of the two.

As far as power-level, you can literally be kicking gods in the face straight out of character creation.

Low magic settings master race

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>>54920704
Because people hate when things are balanced

>>54922501
Eh, 4e's unpopularity was more a result of how much it deviated from the D&D formula (heroes instead of adventurers, more focus small set of polished mechanics instead of sprawling options for making silly characters). If it has been called something else, it would have done fine.

>>54922630
If it was called something else it wouldn't have done at all. Nobody would've played it because it "wasn't DnD", the same reason they hated it in the first place.

>>54922695
Doesn't Mutants and Masterminds largely use 4e mechanics, and is still successful? (honest question, never read M&M, just remember hearing it was based on 4e)

>>54923061

M&M is based on 3.5, although by 3e it barely resembles it. Valor is a M&M style game based on 4e, and is also pretty cool.

>>54923061
You're probably thinking of Gamma World.

>>54923141
Ah, yep, Gamma World is what I was thinking of. Which I've heard of being played, but doesn't seem super popular?

>>54921466
Hmm you know, that's not half bad of an idea anon

>>54920704
1.because the creators were a bunch of nerds that jerk it to the "brains beat muscles" trope
2.Vancian casting as it is is bullshit, you can easily stuff yourself with more magic than you'd use within a day anyway
3.rather than to give Mages a niche which deals with magical kinds of problems, they allow magic to basicly be everything you can imagine
4.No one realizes how important the conservation of energy and mass is for magic to not become bullshit
5.DnD operates on a lot of flashy tropes commonly seen in movies
6.with all factors combined, mages in DnD dont have a drawback that is linked to their power itself. It's clean and without much direct risk to use

>>54920704
Warriors are jocks, wizards are nerds. RPGs are designed by nerds who are jealous of jocks. It might be petty but know it's true.

>>54920854
it is too controllable and predictable to be really "magical" anyway.
If spellcasters are allowed to tap into a realm filled with crazy power, then it should have unique drawbacks as a style of combat. I like to treat magic in my games like a glass of nitroglycerine. It can fuck shit up really hard, but if you lack care and concentration, it will blow up in your face.

I dont use restrictions like spell slots or mana anyway, but a cooldown time in which the caster suffers debuffs. Some spells also require to equip certain tools and accessoiries to be accessible, such as "a wide hat that shields you from sunlight"

>>54923378
Oh so kind of like Mordheim (After every spell you get a stacking chance to get a debuff) I like that. Don't know if anybody ITT read the Dresden Files, but I prefer that kind of magic, with limits and forethought. Not Harry Potter wave your dick around and turn someone into a rabbit

>>54924143
Dresden Files has its own system, which is pretty good.

>>54920739
D&D 4e, GURPS, I believe Warhammer Fantasy and Barbarians of Lemuria as well.

This is mostly an issue just with certain poorly thought out games (D&D 3) or games where is it a feature, not a bug (Ars Magica/Mage).

>>54920739
>tell me one system where mages are not op and warriors become meat to be sacrificed
Barbarians of Lemuria.

>>54920973
Or you go the other way and limit magic and make it risky.

>>54920704

>who is Might Guy

>>54920704
Settings with martial and caster balance
>>warhammer fantasy roleplay
>>40k
>>WoD
>>Warcraft
>>Rifts
>>exalted
>>tunnels and trolls
>>shadowrun

Settings that struggle to have caster and martial balance
>>dnd
>>pathfinder

>>54924272
Sadly a jobber to people with flashier magic powers. He deserved better.

>>54920704
The thing about it is that they really shouldn't. 3e was just poorly thought out when it came to reducing the scale of DnD. In the later levels, Warriors were the ones who commanded armies and got cool castles and became lords in old editions.

The thing is, 3e sort of stripped down the scale, which meant they were focusing more on just the party and what they could do, and didn't change the fighter much to compensate, which meant you had a character that was supposed to effectively have the benefit of an awesome amount of hirelings, the ability to listen to and influence lords, and the best possible base of operations... Except, he didn't have any of that anymore, and he was just a guy with a sword. Instead of earning a fief due to his valor and reputation, he just swings a sword better.

>>54924238

Mage had least doesn't present non-magic users as valid PC choices.

And might let you muscle wizard, but that requires more system mastery than I have to know for sure.

>>54924343

The fief seemed kinda forced in OSG.

... Does being a good sell sword really mean that my character gets a castle... Despite how much I want to play her as a woman trying to escape her past and duties?

That and like ... rogues ... don't work.

>>54924341

He was the only one who got close to killing Madara.

>>54924378
I'm not gonna say it didn't have its own set of problems, yeah. You could probably houserule it and say you get a fellow band of sellswords and a little tavern-turned-freikorps-base, but that falls into the 'lol just fiat this problematic feature away' camp.

I'm just pointing out that the designers did something to keep the mundane fighter on-point with the wizard, which fell by the wayside come 3/3.x, and creating the 'fighters are useless and designers see them as an outlet for their nerd rage' meme.

>>54924378
that's what you get for playing class-based systems.

>>54920739
Barbarians of Lemuria

>>54924378
You don't need to sit at the castle, anon, you had a seneschal that would do the day to day shit so you could continue adventuring.

>>54920704
Why are meatheads so entitled?

>>54924665
Because shoving nerds into lockers doesn't command a fair wage.

Lunch money is not a living wage, and our union is shit. Sometimes, I just wanna take off my letterman and pretend to be Conman the Barbarian, or whatever.

>>54920704
>Play Anima
>Problem solved
There you go, anon. You can thank me later.

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>High level fighters in myth and legend: carve mountains in half
>high level fighters in D&D: one extra attack per full-attack action, what were you expecting muggle you're not magic!

>>54926037
I really like Anima, but I wish their combat flowed a bit smoother.

>>54920704
There isn't a reason and not every system does that.

>>54920739
>tell me one system where mages are not op and warriors become meat to be sacrificed
Anima, beyond fantasy, because the warriors are either superpowered too or just because a good sword to the fucking head is about as lethal at level 10 as it is at level 1

>>54920704
>because muh gritty realism
>muh arbitrary boundaries that no one can really quantify
>muh bounded accuracy
>muh brains beats brawn even though I just flung a giant meteor at your face instead of actually outwitting you

>>54926201
Once you get used to it, it becomes far easier, but yeah, it could flow a bit smoother. Generally speaking, I think the pros outweigh the cons, for example the ki techniques creation system, which I love.

>>54926576
I ended up writing a simple program to handle having to reroll initiative every turn, which helped a lot. I like modular creation systems like they used for Ki, but think I prefer the Martial Arts from Exalted 2e just for flavor. "Styles" in Anima are really just whatever moves the player makes, which tend to only be loosely connected, whereas Exalted has was more distinction between styles. (Exalted, especially 2e, has its own problems, though)

>>54920739
AD&D
the OG Gygax fucking hated casters, and I'm starting to believe it was for a very good reason too...

Because D&D wasn't created under the assumption of superhuman warriors.

A high level fighter is supposed to be somebody like Boromir not Hercules or any other Warrior/Hero of mythic stature.

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>>54926820
>>54926820

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>>54926852

If I'm wrong then Book of Nine Swords wouldn't have the derisive nickname " Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic".

The Fighter as envisioned by the designers isn't any of the Mythical Hero's. The Fighter even at the apex of ability is still supposed to be a mere mortal;unless game mechanics are supposed to be take literally.

>>54929545
A derisive nickname from the community is not in any way indicative of the designer's intent ya dingus.

And the people deriding it in the first place are hardcore ivory tower wizard-fags who unironically embraced caster-edition mentality.

>>54926820
3.5 wasn't, and threeaboos didn't like 4e's setup.
Personally, I'm going to try out
>>54921000
because I'm sick and tired of playing 5e and if there's the slightest chance I might get a kick out of a new system I'll take it.

>>54920739
4e, you did this to yourself. All the impotent sperging about "warlords are using reality bending magic shouts" did this

>>54926820
This is so wrong it isnt even funny, fifth level is considered the pinnacle of achievement and anything beyond it is considered essentially super heroic, Boromir would likely be a 6th-7th level fighter at most.

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>>54929545
Riven Hourglass from PF's martial adepts gives a dude with a sword and shield the Celerity spell bullshit.

>>54924348
One of the traditions is literally "you get closer to enlightenment through street fighting" IIRC.