/5eg/ - Fifth Edition General

Take expertise in religion, the most useful skill.

>>54807977
>Rogues
Stealth and Thieves' Tools, then two from Investigation, Perception, and Sleight of Hand depending on which ones have been more common in the campaign

>Bards
Persuasion, History, Insight, and Deception, in no particular order

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>>54807977
cute merfolk bard

Posted this a couple threads ago, and got some good feedback on it from a couple people, thanks for that!

Pride - Oni - Demon
Wrath - Barlgura - Gorilla
Sloth - Bone Devil - Skeleton
Gluttony - Nalfeshnee - Boar
Lust - Marilith - Snake
Envy - Vrock - Birds
Greed - Rakshasa?- Tiger

Pride - one of the PCs (gets asked to join the bad guys)
Wrath - Warchief of some raiding army
Sloth - Religious figure? Subverts things to get people worshipping him.
Gluttony - Gambler/lord/all around decadence
Lust - Madame or slave trader? Deals in pleasures of the flesh
Envy - Half-Elf lordling/prince obsessed with being better than everyone out of spite rather than personal development.
Greed - hoarder of all things, in particular knowledge.

Now we're working on fighting styles and such. So each of these people has a demon bound to them - all willingly except the PC. Thinking for the boss fights they should take on aspects of the demons, as they obviously don't want to be killed. For the Marilith it's easy, she grows snake like features - tail, fangs, then gets the four extra arms to make six. Given her theme is Lust we thought a fighting style of grappling, squeezing, kissing/biting with poison etc.

What would you all suggest for the others?

>>54808057
some guide was saying that stealth and perception were must haves
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?363601-Bardic-Lore-A-Basic-College-of-Lore-Bard-Guide

>>54807977
>First rogue
Acrobatics, Stealth, Thieves' Tools and Nature

>Second rogue
Sleight of Hand and Deception

>Bard
Persuasion and Insight

>>54808103
Screw the kind of munchkins that make optimization guides for a fucking role playing game

Oy is the some kind of Anti-Paladin class in any official capacity. I know I can play a Paladin of any Alignment but Lay on Hands hardly matches the feel of a dick-ass knight.

>>54808103
>5e
>Guides

>>54808162
>Lay on Hands hardly matches the feel of a dick-ass knight
Use it only on yourself

>>54808103
>Perception
Every guide I've read that treats Perception as a godskill assume it's used to search for secret things like in Pathfinder, when it's not. That falls under Investigation, and most rolls I've made or had people make in 5e have fallen under Investigation. There's relatively few situations where more than one person needs to be good in Perception, and chances are a cleric or druid is on par with the rogue or better, even with expertise.

In other words, 3e had Spot, Listen, Search, and Gather Information. Pathfinder had Perception [Spot, Listen, Search] and rolled GI into Diplomacy. 5e has Perception [Spot, Listen] and Investigation [Search, Gather Information].

Not a bad choice of a skill for anyone, but hardly a godskill like guides assume.

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All of the posts on lfg are in the U.S., the last time someone from my country posted on that was more than a year ago and it had zero replies, and roll20 is mostly English and I can't speak English properly.

>>54808009

Nature is the more useful knowledge skill in my experience. Although it's nice to just have all of them with a high Int score and know everything.

>>54808103
Every guide in those sites assumes every people's games run the same way, a hard-RP game would use Charisma-related skills way more than Stealth/Perception, for example.

Plus they religiously believe Investigation is a skill that doesn't exist.

How would you minmax a sorc?

>>54808267

It's still pretty godlike just for getting you to see an ambush early, and with your passive Perception you get a more steady return on investment for it than a lot of skills. You wanna Investigate, take 10.

...taking 10 is still a thing in 5e, right? I just realized I never checked.

>>54808170
I could really use some walkthroughs for Battlemaster, preferably spoiler-free

>>54808384
>...taking 10 is still a thing in 5e, right? I just realized I never checked.
Technically it isn't, but 5e encourages you not to roll in the first place if you could reasonably accomplish a task if they have enough time to do so

>>54808312
That's OK most native English speakers can't speak English properly.

>Bandits have been hitting merchants
>Much of their wealth is in trade goods
>Keep going back to the fucking goats and chickens every time I'm looking at prices

It's so fucking dumb but I want to give them like 100 goats

>>54808382
Cha, Dex, Con, in that order.
Dump Str, Int, Wis, in that order (8 str, 10 int, 12 wis)
Decide if you're going to be a blaster/buffer/whatever, because Sorcerers are really hard to change their spell list early.

>>54808384
>Taking 10 is still a thing in 5e, right? I just realized I never checked.
Sort of. That's what Passive checks are, but the rules don't explicitly allow players to choose to do it.
However, given the presence of the Observant feat's +5 to passive Investigation, it's reasonable to assume that someone searching a room can use their passive Investigation if they aren't under some sort of pressure.
It's always subject to DM permission however, unlike in 3e where it was an active player choice. To clarify, while the DM always has final say on anything, certain things are available for a player to more or less freely use, like the Dash action, and some require situational DM permission, like modifying your Background Feature.

>>54808312
You can post on lfg yourself. Might be worth a shot.

How useful are the guides in 5e? Where there's less emphasis on optimization.

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>>54808497
At this point I'm even looking through normiebook. Sure, why not, I'll make a plebbit account.

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>>54808506
>normiebook

>>54808505
Just put your highest stat in your class' primary ability and you'll be fine

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>>54808540
Fuck

>>54808386
Battlemaster Guide:
>Take Precision Attack. Use it if you get a 12-15ish and expect to miss, depending on what you know about the target's AC.
>Rogue in your party? Consider Commander's Strike. It's expensive to use, but the rogue's damage can be huge. Otherwise don't bother.
>Pick any one you like that adds the superiority die to damage. If you can't decide, Menacing Attack is always useful. Even if they make their saves, you get a free "crit" of damage.
>Use your dice liberally unless you think the creature is almost dead anyway. You get four of them per short rest, so you'll be fine. Reaching a short rest with dice remaining is leaving damage on the table.

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>>54808506
Using snide terms for tools millions of people use doesn't make you cooler, you know.

>>54808429
That's not unreasonable if they attacked a goatherd. Livestock theft has always been a problem.

>>54808586
I haven't left the house in 5 years. I don't give a shit about looking cool, you mongoloid.

>>54808540
That's one way to get rid of barbrogues

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>>54808586
But saving 15% on my car insurance does.

>>54808586
thx 4 making the internet a better place ;)

>>54808569
I think you might need to reassess the tone of the post you're responding to

>>54808312
You're writing it just fine, if that makes you feel any better.

My gf is gonna play with my group for her first time ever, never having played tabletop before (my friends gf played with us a few times n everyone had a good time so our group is ok with the idea). She's wants to play a rogue which is ok in our party comp too. My question is how hard is she gonna have playing one? I've never played a rogue so I can't help her out on this one. I tried pointing her to an easier class like champion fighter or even sorcerer but she's likes the concept of sneaking around and assassinating targets behind enemy lines

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>>54808622
You're welcome!
I realize we're on 4chan and anonymity breeds douchebaggery, but I honestly think we'll all have more fun talking about D&D than calling each other names.

>>54808655
The difficulty of a Rogue is 80% dependant on how bad your DM is and 20% on how stupid you are.

>>54808645
If only writing properly made up for speaking like a literal retard. Most campaigns I found on roll20 require a microphone, and the text only option gives me a handful of bad homebrew stuff.

>>54808655
If you haven't already you should run a short solo one shot with her so she at least understands the basics and doesn't hold up the actual game with her learning/remembering how to do stuff.

>>54808664
Pugs are a horrible animal. The kindest thing we could do is to let them die out. What practical purpose do they serve? Most dog breeds were made to work some specific goal, or to have desirable physical or behavioral traits; those that weren't good at hunting down truffles or guarding sheep were at least friendly and cute to look at. But the pug is a malformed monster from head to toe. Its stubby legs can't carry it anywhere, its tail is useless for balanceand its squashed face is not only abhorrent to look at but has a detrimental effect on their ability to FUCKING BREATHE.

It's time to let pugs go. It's for the best.

>>54808718
You're right, and I say that as someone who owns a pug.

But goddamnit they're just so loving. They care so much about people. It's literally bred into them.

I look at the poor creatures and I just see something that loves me.

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>>54808718

Too late, they're becoming a PC race.

>>54808718
I don't think every breed of pet needs to be justified with having a specific purpose or that there's fundamentally anything wrong with useless lap dogs. I completely agree that pug breeding has gone far off the deep end, and ending that line would be a mercy though

>>54808672
Luckily I'm the DM. Unluckily I'm pretty fucking retarded so there's that
>>54808702
Good idea, was tossing that idea around in my head a few times. Thinking of doing something like shes a bounty hunter in a big city given contracts, dead or alive targets, that sort of thing.

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>>54807977
Player wants to try a Kobold Rogue in our next game, and I really don't like the look of Volo's. Are there any good alternative write-ups for Kobold PCs, or are they all just Pack Tactics + Sunlight Sensitivity garbage?

>>54808767
What's wrong with sunlight sensitivity/pack tactics?

>>54808718
I actually agree with that. I've met some adorable half-pug crossbreeds that were every bit as cute but could actually breathe, which made me happy. I just posted that picture because it was the only other happy dog picture I could find in my random pictures folder.

>>54808743
Racial adjustments: -2 constitution, -1 intelligence
Short of breath: your disfigured snout imposes disadvantage on any athletics check that involve endurance.

>>54807977
>Rogues and bards, which skills did you take Expertise in? Have they served you well?
As a Bard, I grabbed Deception, Persuasion, and Insight. Deception because I was an Evil character in a Good-Neutral group, so 90% of what came out of my mouth was in some way dishonest, and Persuasion because it was always easier and more profitable to be honest when possible, so that 10% better go right.

And Insight so I knew when it was the 90% and when it was the 10%.

>>54808765
I don't think the one shot would have to be particularly complex, just have her roll a lot so the process of rolling attack/damage/skill checks gets cemented.

>>54808782
>Racial adjustments: -2 constitution, -1 intelligence
>Short of breath: your disfigured snout imposes disadvantage on any athletics check that involve endurance.
+2 Charisma and +1 dex if we were being serious about it being a PC race, along with all that stuff.

I would say 20 ft of movement as well.

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Might as well kill myself, lads.

>>54808797
Good call, thanks m8

>>54808780
Pack Tactics means you get advantage on basically every attack.

This is then "balanced out" by giving you disadvantage (which Pack Tactics cancels) on any attack you make in broad daylight. So depending on the group and campaign, even the non-downside will never be relevant.

If I'm a dungeon-crawling game, for example, I can enjoy Pack Tactics the entire campaign without Sunlight Sensitivity ever coming up. It's not a balancing feature.

Giving races "downsides" literally never works, it's why the core doesn't bother with it. Like giving Orcs -2 Intelligence; was anyone planning to make an Orc Wizard in the first place? No? Well, they certainly aren't now, so the "downside" isn't one, and doesn't detract from any other features you give that race.

>>54808780
pact tactics is op unless you're in a campaign of sunny open fields where just ss cancels it out so what's the point anyway

>>54808811
Bye

So how do we fix the Kobold pc race?
I say get rid of -2 strength and pack tactics. I would argue to remove sensitivity as well but I don't know what features you would add to replace it all.

>>54808767
>>54808767
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJWZ7jQRLW

Play a hoard kobold paladin, like in your image

Be brave sir lizardy knight

And carry everyone's shit

What have peep's experiences been with playing and/or running 5e?
Is it still a good game or has it become boring and stale?
Did your expectations change or largely remain the same?

>>54808987
It's good, despite the simplification of a lot of rules. I wish feats played a bigger role though.

>>54808935

You could just add a Proficiency or two. Stripping out Pack Tactics and Sunlight Sensitivity, you'd be left with a high-DEX race with Darkvision who can start crying to give advantage against enemies within 10 feet once per fight.

I think more races should have distributable +1 ability scores with subraces just having different features. I think it would increase character variety and give more options when rolling a new one.

>>54808162
The DMG has the "oath breaker"-oath I guess? That's about as close as you get I think.

>>54808962
Playing a kobold with no weakness to sunlight that has no real traits that reflect being small seems like the most pointless shit ever. Why even be a kobold if you aren't going to be at least a little pathetic? At that point you're just a lizardfolk or worse a dragonborn

There is any race that gives advantage in perception checks in some situations? Some monsters do that, any race does?

>>54809061
Isn't that the point of Grovel-they act so miserable and pathetic that people lower their guard to laugh at them?

>>54809004
Maybe that's because of the streamlining of a lot of the rules? It's certainly less autistic than other games.

>>54809085
I don't think so. There's only races that give perception proficiency

>>54809111
I meant it in the sense that feats are technically optional rules. Most people use them but as a result Mearl has stated that they had to design the game without them in mind.

How many encounters a day are good?
do you use short rest long rest rules as written?

>>54809091
the homebrew linked didn't have that. It was basically just min-maxed in racial stat terms towards rogue under pretty generic terms

>>54808603
Doesn't get rid of them, but balances them.
However, barbarogues are already sort of balanced to normal barbarians if the normal barbarian takes fucking feats like they're supposed to.

>>54809149
Three. Encounter, short rest. Encounter, short rest. Encounter, long rest. And by encounters I mean something that takes a significant toll on the party and expends their resources.

Shortsword or dagger, /5eg/?

>>54809207
Shortsword for everything but throwing.

Then you use a dart.

The only reason to use a dagger instead of a shortsword is if you aren't proficient in the latter.

>>54809207
>or
pleb

>>54809207
whip

>>54809207
Hand crossbow.

It's a direct upgrade unless you're a barbarogue.

>>54809207
Greatsword

>Being a filthy light weapon pleb

>>54808312
Just nut up and fucking join an English speaking game. If your post is anything to go by, your English is better than a good chunk of native English speakers I've met. You'll be fine

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>>54807977
>no scientist background
>no science skill

My parties in a really tight spot right now and the Warlock in the party is suggesting trying to work out a deal (in the middle of combat) to see if her Patron might intervene.

How would you handle this?

>>54808085
Wrath should be a relentless force of nature, pummelling things to death and hitting things that go unconscious to make sure they are dead

get Sloth some necromancy, raising things to fight for him so he doesnt' have to fight

No idea about gluttony, maybe some buffs from eating during the fight type thing? I dunno how video gamey you want to go here.

Lust you've covered. For Envy some sort of bard type spellcaster who shuts down others so they can't have nice things? Or steals their gear/spells and uses them against the party?

Greed could be temporary HP as a mechanic, the boss? Storing up more and more things and hoarding stuff? Also aren't Rakshasa's meant to be like super cunning and devious? So mabye illusions showing the party getting their shit stolen or their worst nightmares sort of thing.

>>54809399

Wouldn't that be Sage or Cloistered Scholar, along with whatever proficiencies are germane to your field?

>>54809413
Look at the Cleric's Divine Intervention feature and modify that, perhaps

Or you could just make it so that the Warlock's patron doesn't give a fuck. What is the patron, anyway?

>>54809413

Generally, the sort of beings that warlocks make pacts with are not the sort of beings you want intervening in the material plane.

Then again, if they well and truly are boned, they might as well try. But lordy, will they regret it.

>>54809413
>>54809486
This

Most warlocks probably wouldn't want to be noticed by their patron. Death is often better than the patron showing up

>>54809512
There's a lot of takes on the warlock concept, but I agree that a warlock that actually wants their benefactor to intervene on the material plane is a cop out at best

>>54809004
>>54809131
coming from 3.5, fuck feats. I wish there were less, They tried desperately to avoid using feats in design but COMPLETELY FUCKING FAILED. Invocations are also correctly labeled as warlock bonus feats. Don't lie to yourself Merlman, your fetish edgelord class requires them.

>>54809250
Whatever happened to oddball whip proficiency? I mean bards used to have it but they don't fucking need it. Do any of the newer races get Racial Whip? Shit was strong as fuck.

>>54809486
>>54809512
>>54809572
Only reason I'd allow a Patron to come when called would be to trade for another party member's soul or whatever. Warlocks are USED UP. Already got their boons, they can pay the fuck up if they want more.

>>54809752
Explain superiority dice and rage as an in character thing

Why are barbarians only able to get mad a certain amount of times and then they can't do it anymore?

Why can fighters only swing their sword a special way a certain amount of times before they just say "ok back to hitting normally" after they do it enough times?

>>54809478
Fiend patron

>>54809893
Yeah they're not gonna give a fuck

How are sorcery points and Flexible Magic supposed to work if you are using spell points instead of slots? I've seen some people say to just combine the pools and let the sorcerer do whatever with his spell points.

>>54809883
Are barbarian rages supernatural? I'm pretty sure that's just mundane crap. No need to explain it.

>>54809945
>Sorcerers
>Work

>>54809939

If they're going to sacrifice a party member to save their ass, it might get their attention.

>>54809893

Has the player been receiving (and following) instructions from their patron?

>>54810063
For the most part yeah. He communicates with her through mysterious passages that magically burns onto empty pages of her tome.

>>54809939
>>54809980
That's what I thought.

What would be a good holy symbol for an evil god that believes death and destruction paves the way for newer, and greater things.

Something war focused preferably

>>54810427
Doomfist's gauntlet

>>54810427
>god that believes death and destruction paves the way for newer, and greater things
>evil
???

>>54810467
>Killing and destroying everything for your own ideals isn't evil

Can someone explain cleric spellcasting to me? This is for a 1st level cleric.

The table says I get 3 cantrips and 2 1st level spells. Are those the spells I know, or my spells per day? How do I calculate my spells per day?

I only know 3.5e so this is very confusing to me.

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Any suggestions for functional but funky character sheets? I normally use the form-filling one from the OP pastebin.

>>54810507
The orcpub2 one, damn that's a good resource.

>>54810496
Read the cleric's spellcasting feature.

tl;dr you can prepare spells after a long rest from the cleric spell list, a number of spells equal to your cleric level + your Wisdom level. You can use your spell slots to cast any spell you have prepared, if that slot is of that spell's level or higher.

>>54810496
>Cantrips
>At 1st level, you know three Cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn additional cleric Cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Cleric table.

>Preparing and Casting Spells

>The Cleric table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your Spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these Spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.

>You prepare the list of cleric Spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric Spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The Spells must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots.

>For example, if you are a 3rd-level cleric, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level Spell Slots. With a Wisdom of 16, your list of prepared Spells can include six Spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination. If you prepare the 1st-level spell Cure Wounds, you can cast it using a 1st-level or 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn't remove it from your list of prepared Spells.

>You can change your list of prepared Spells when you finish a Long Rest. Preparing a new list of cleric Spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per Spell Level for each spell on your list.

>>54809945
That's probably what I'd do.

Hey all, how does sorcerer's Twinned Spell work with an upcast Hold Person?

The spell at its base only targets a single person, so it's fine for twinning. But it adds more targets at higher levels, so can you twin a 2nd or 3rd level Hold Person?

>>54810857
You can only twin Hold Person when casting it at a level where it only targets one creature

>>54810872
>>54810857
I'd rule you can do it but it only nets you one more target rather than doubling them.

>>54810883
Good for you, but just know that this isn't RAW

>>54810857
If the spell has more than one target (even if the targets are the same creature twice) then it can't be twinned.
Hold person at its normal level has only one target, and therefore can be twinned.
Beyond that, it cannot be.

>>54809719
Entertainer (Gladiator) background can grant whip proficiency.

>>54810905
That's fine. The vast majority of tables don't follow strict RAW anyways.

>>54810872
>>54810928
Well, that's a damn shame.

I was looking forward to freezing a whole pile of bandits at once and letting the rogue and druid maul them.

>>54810958
Interesting. Wouldn't go that far but it feels like they're trying to slowly inch whips out of the game. It doesn't fit with Martials but Exotic is dead. Whipbladelock would be pretty sweet though now that I think about it.

>>54808962
these are going off the assumption you're still in faerun/greyhawk

not who you were responding to, but the kobolds in my setting are actually a common race and live above ground and sport a +1 dex and +1 int, without sunlight sensitivity

>>54808085
Bump for ideas! Anyone else got something for me?

1 hour rest = 1 hit die, what do you think?

>>54811272
isnt that RAW?

>>54811272
>>54811286
I thought you picked which ones to expend and then recovered some on LR.

>>54811286
You can spend as many of your remaining hit dice as you want during a short rest, RAW

>>54811286
>>54811297
>>54811305
I see, one OR MORE. Are you suggesting that it should be heavily limited? I would agree to that.

>>54811330
Nah, I think it's fine. They're a resource like everything else.

>>54811272
Why?
... Why?
Do you love healers so much that you want healers to be essentially core to the party?
Do you want your players to always take long rests instead?

>>54811354
I'm not a big fan of short rests in general. Too many shennanigan opportunities. If they want to burn spell slots or consumables to push themselves through a full working day of combat that is totally cool but you can't nap your way through that.

>>54811455
>Too many shennanigan opportunities
The fuck do you mean by this?

>>54811272
I can think of a few ways to interpret this, but I don't really like any of them. Can you elaborate on what you mean?

>>54811473
>Song of Rest, free HP without hit dice per short rest
>Recover 1/2 your caster level of spell slots per short rest
>All bonus dice recovered during short rest

Short rests effectively ARE long rests only they've broken time. The other option is to make a short rest minimum... 4 hours? Long rest is more like 12.

>>54811512
Yeah, fuck monks and warlocks

>>54811512
>Song of Rest, free HP without hit dice per short rest
You have to spend hit dice to gain the HP from Song of Rest
>Recover 1/2 your caster level of spell slots per short rest
This really isn't that crazy.
>All bonus dice recovered during short rest
And?

>>54811455
You've effectively made a whole bunch of classes useless.

>>54811455
Good job for making at least half and possibly more of the classes worthless. Good work.

>>54811532
Unironically FUCK warlocks. I've never seen a monk in 5e.
>they're just going to cantrip spam and at-will anyway

>>54811543
And it's too gamey and inappropriately scaled and completely silly.
>I will calculate how many spell slots I need to use before resting to end up with optimal HP regen and minimal loss to spell slots
and
>Well if we short rest every other hour we can spend 16 hours a day in combat
This shouldn't be an option period.

>>54811556
>>54811579
Are you sure they weren't useless from the get go? Maybe they should learn resource management. This has always been a staple of basically every tabletop RPG ever. It's not a fucking video game.

>>54811604
>letting the players take 8 short rests
Bust out the wandering monster tables if your players are being dicks about it

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Stat her /5eg/

>>54811618
I don't want them to even think it. I will bust out 12 different wandering monsters for every 8 rests and give them exhaustion. The design of it is bad. If they're feeling left out from all their resource-wasting combat maybe they should progress slower or fight smarter.

It's not like time is a precious commodity in most games anyway.

Would it work to make a Strength ranger?

What kind of clothes would buy a tiefling female?

>>54811604
Tell that to the clerics, the fighters, the warlocks, the bards, the monks, the druids, because they have resources that are dependant on short rests. Yeah, fuck them. Good job.

>>54811627
Low INT high WIS Light Cleric.

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>>54808718
pugs were bread for a purpose tho. They were intended to be lap dogs! that is it! Every other lap dog (save the shit-zu) were made for something else and ended up as lap dogs. No other dog does the job better than a pug. They are loving, small, long lived, have soft fur, and are relatively low energy while still being smart. Everything you could want in a lap buddy they have. The fucked up facial things are a very modern thing and totally screw the breed up. Blame the A.K.C. Everything bad about modern dogs comes from them I swear.

/an/ out!

>>54811627
Low level wizard (either enchanter or some sort of theurge thing) that pretends to be a cleric

>>54811650
>short rest resources have intentionally shallow pools because they're easy to get back
>how DARE you use your two wildshapes Mr. Druid, go eat a fat stack of bear dicks for being so wasteful

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>>54811673
>pugs were bread

>>54811604
Are you sure you aren't a cockgobbler. It's not a video game but the encounter in the day system assumes short rests. Unless you want to play with only autistic wizards and sorcerers, by all means use your shit.

>>54811657
Resources are not supposed to be INFINITE. If you run out of resources, USE LESS RESOURCES. Use different resources. Use different tactics.
>Gibsmedat short rests so I can break any sense of pacing and immersion.
I don't believe anyone ACTUALLY wants this, just the entitled players who don't think things through and respond impulsively.

>>54811683
Wildshapes are seriously gimped, not gonna lie about that. ON THE OTHER HAND INFINITE FREE TEMPORARY HP IS BAD.

Totally justified in fucking druids who want to spam wildshapes.

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>>54811692
Fuck me. Pugs ARE bread.

>>54811721
>Fuck half the classes AND fuck half the features of the rest of them, because I have a huge stick up my ass about a specific form of easily preventable systems abuse

Why do people think Wizard is better than Druid? Druids automatically have all of their spells available as soon as they have that level of spell slot available. Wizards only get so many spells plus the ones that they find. Both classes prepare spells on a long rest. Are wizard spells just that much better than Druid spells?

What are some of your favourite adventure modules / campaigns from older editions? I've heard a lot of good things about The Night Below.

>>54811743
>Are wizard spells just that much better than Druid spells?
Yes. Druid spells are quite specific low-power buffs, healing, and AoE control spells. Wizard spells cover the entire gamut of buff, debuff, blasting, AoE damage, AoE control, everything except healing. The only thing druids really excel at over wizards is healing and summoning.

>>54811743
>Are wizard spells just that much better than Druid spells?
Yes.

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>>54811604
>This shouldn't be an option period.
Kill yourself

>>54811721
Nothing is breaking immersion if you're resting for an hour in between, obviously consider the time and place. You're severely autistic if you're this goddamn assblasted about this or have the other classes shown your wizard up too many times.

>>54811740
You know how long wildshape lasts? A number of hours equal to half your druid level. How many uses does that make per day at lets say level 6, is that.... 5?
>NO ITS 20 GIBSMEDATSHORTREST

I'm not opposed to maybe a mid-day rest and hell, maybe even two a day. They should not be blowing all their abilities in half a day anyway so that feels laid back and there's clearly no rush through whatever dungeon or challenge they're facing anyway. One to two is good if you're playing a really lazy sunny day walking through the park campaign.

>>54811721
ok so what you want is for every class balanced around being able to use a set of skills every few hours to now only be able to use them once a day while maintaining balance with classes that have a different set of skills they can use once a day as is.

You just want wizard buffs don't you?

Seriously tho if you hate short rests just give all the "resets on short rest" abilities about twice or three times the charges. Bam, no more short rests and warlocks don't get soft banned

>>54811721
I think your problem is more with shit players than shit mechanics. The short rest system works fine and DMs have tools to prevent abuse, if they for whatever reason decide to put up with That Guys in their game.

>>54811830
I really think he's the That Guy of their games. No one is this severely autistic or retarded.

>>54811806
>>54811830
It's a completely shit mechanic, how many fucking naps do you take a day?

So someone works 9-5, ~8 hours. They sleep ~8 hours. Low-stress.

If you're in a dungeon for 24 hours straight and doing relentless hard painful labor and expecting to maintain a low-stress low-effort pace with all of that just woke up freshness then fuck you. Even if you're a fucking supernatural demigod, fuck you. Disable your EZMode cheat.
>Boo hoo I don't have any spell slots left
>Waaah I can't use my non-repetitive-strain-inducing actions infinitely
>Ha! My blatantly superior class design prevents me from giving fucks about this change!
Fuck em all.

What is the best way to build Forge Cleric? Pure WIS shillelagh or Great Weapon STR meme?

>>54811888
>Disable your EZMode cheat.
Holy fuck you're an awful DM
Legitimately kill yourself

>>54811804
if you really want to do away with short rests (which you shouldn't), then the easy way of dealing with that is as >>54811806 says and give them three times as many uses per day. Druids now get 6 wild shapes, Battlemasters begin with 12 superiority die, etc. Why three times?

>SHORT RESTS In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one third and two-thirds of the way through the day.
DMG pg. 64

And probably use the Healing Surge variant as well, and give bards something else for Song of Rest.

is this unfair: rolling monsters damage and if it is lower than average use the average

>>54811888
Look ma, a retard!

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>>54811888

>>54811888
These will designed classes are SHIT because only I am RIGHT.
This is what you sound like.
Your personal preference is shit, learn to play with others, it's a goddamn team game you autistic retard. Cease your autistic blathering.

>>54811931
Why?

>>54811931
You should either roll or take average

>>54811804
Druids are a bad comparison. They get far too many wildshapes for their own good, two every short rest lasting for ages.

Warlocks and monks are more underdogs and are kinda limited without short rests.
The point of short rests is to be able to have them without much discontinuity in-game, with 1 hour already being bad enough. If you make it 4 hours, that makes it far too annoying to take short rests at all.

If you're doing an overworld-focused travelling sort of game though with more story then a short rest of 8 hours and a long rest of a week is more logical, I guess.

I'm building a Bard for the first time and I'm having a really hard time deciding what spells to go with. I've only ever played a Druid before and a lot of these Bard spells don't seem very useful in comparison. We're starting at level 5, and the only useful thing I see is hypnotic pattern. Maybe I just don't have an open mind. Anyone wanna give me some pointers? Are there any Bard spells that are considered "must-have?" I'm Glamor Bard so I don't get Magical Secrets until level 10.

>>54811931
Yes?

>>54811931
"Unfair" has a lot of implications, but you're certainly giving monsters a boost to their damage that doesn't seem particularly justified

>>54811931
It is unfair. You should know this unless you are a retard. You pretty much increase the party average damage taken.

Is it fair to ban rope trick?

Would 5e be better with a different skill system?

>>54811960
Heat Metal is bretty gud due to poor design.

Pick up Healing Word so you can up your fallen allies as a bonus action and still do other bard shit on your turn. My valor bard made it a nightmare on enemies because they could never keep party members down.

>>54812005
Why??

>>54812007
Not at all. The simplicity of proficiency is one of the core aspects of this edition

>>54811923
>>54811925
I'm not saying I put players through a meat grinder but I won't let them put themselves through that shit either (without punishing them like so). A full fucking combat can last as little as 1-2 minutes? Not making up your 1/3rd of a day. Shouldn't make up 1/3rd of your abilities either but bitches think a per-short rest means per-encounter and that is a No.

I'm particularly upset about it because I play with some awful people sometimes and they have attempted it.

>>54811957
I agree but honestly still FUCK WARLOCKS. They were never designed well in any edition and have forever been a WotC forced-fetish-favorite class for no fucking reason. I have no mercy for the edgemagnet class but I have not yet had the heart to ban them.
>You chose your cantrip, you get to live with it

>>54812005
Just have monsters waiting to ambush the party when the spell ends if they keep abusing it in the middle of dungeons. Smart enemies are going to catch on.

>>54812007
Probably not, no.

>>54812011
Hmm. Can I use a bonus action ability as a regular action instead?
For example, can I use healing word and give out bardic inspiration in a single turn?

>>54812007
>Would 5e be better if it had 2 hour character creation like 3.PF?

>>54812025
>I play with some awful people
You are objectively the worst person in any group you're in.
>I agree but honestly still FUCK WARLOCKS
Warlocks are fine, sperg

>>54812043
My character sheet comes with an index and 2 appendices of tables.

>>54812025
Short rest resources were totally intended to be encounter resources and were changed later in development.

>>54812007
I was thinking in using the roll under system from 2e

>>54812034
I don't believe so. My valor bard was built as a grappler so I could healing word + shove/grapple or just attack with my sword (had the war caster feat).
Character was the shit. Hope we play that campaign again soon.

>>54812063
They certainly feel that way and I hear a lot of guys house rule a 5-10 minute short rest. I do the opposite but my games always tend to lean towards survival.
>Better hope you have enough class resources to get OUT of the dungeon ro rest, guys.

>>54812025
There's no changing the fact your opinions are shit and you have very little understanding of the game beyond muh autistic wizards. Learn to play with others in a team game, you goddamn severely autistic retard.

>>54812034
I don't know if you can RAW but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

>>54812034
RAW no, but I allow it at my table and I bet other DMs would allow it too.

I think a lot of the people that hate the idea of multiple short rests each day think of them like naps or something stupid. I always imagined them as cleaning your weapons/armor, staying hydrated, sitting down and relaxing your muscles a bit, bandaging shallow wounds, etc.

>>54812034
I think 4e had some sort of rule like that, but as far as I know, no

>>54812130
Yeah, think of it as camping in Darkest Dungeon, it's one fucking hour long.

>>54812154
4e let you trade down your actions but never up
Action
Move
Minor
Free
Free was unlimited though

>>54812130
Stupid people see "rest" and think "sleep", when all it is, is time that you can relax a bit.

>>54812128
I kind of miss the 3E turn slices & names. They went full vague in 5e.

>>54812178
I would totally go with that. Never even read 4E book though.

>>54812196
>They went full vague in 5e
Not if you can read

>>54812191
>>54812130
There's a bit of an addage/axiom for hiking where you either break for 5-10 minutes or at least 2 hours. I don't think short rests are particularly broken in 5E except the time scale behind them definitely is.

>>54812203
>Full Attack
>Contains all attack actions

>Action
>Contains all Attacks, or all Action of another type
>Except Bonus Actions
>and Reactions
>Which can contain Attacks
It's not well written.

>>54812034
No, Bonus Actions are a resource, and its intentionally separate from Actions.

Mostly, it prevents overlap and double dipping.

Multiple attacks in a turn from Spiritual Weapon, especially when upcast, is noticeably better on most clerics than a cantrip or weapon attack. Using Aura of Vitality more than once per turn doubles its efficacy.

The simply answer is Bonus Actions are NOT inherently "weaker" than actions.

>>54812226
>It's not well written.
No, it's very well written. Only a retard doesn't understand it.

>>54812196
They aren't any more vague, they just changed how move actions work and "swift" has become "bonus"

>>54812034
Not only can you never take more than one bonus action per turn, but if you cast a spell using a bonus action, you're no longer allowed to cast a spell as your action except for a cantrip.

So you cannot cure Wounds and healing word in one turn, for example. You CAN however, cast thorn whip and healing word in one turn.

Keep in mind, bardic inspiration isn't actually a spell, so you could totally cast hypnotic gaze and give out bardic inspiration in a single turn.

>>54812226
>>Action
>>Contains all Attacks, or all Action of another type
>>Except Bonus Actions
>>and Reactions
>>Which can contain Attacks
>It's not well written.
There is an "Attack" action, which is a thing. Action doesn't "contain" anything, its a resource to use. As is bonus action and reaction. Every type of THING takes a resource to use.

>>54812243
Yeah, it's not THAT bad. It's a book full of edge cases written at different times, designed around a purposely general system. I think the worst part is the naming convention honestly.

>>54812249
Yeah, you're right. I described it poorly. They should not describe all of them as some form of the same word though, that's just begging for problems when something down the line has slightly vague terminology.

>>54812249
I'd say the only resource that's vague is the "free interaction with an object one per turn."

How do I make He-Man in fifth?
I want to play as He-Man

>>54812300
How is that vague in any way

In what order are reactions resolved if multiple things use their reaction at once?

>>54812061
Could we see it?

>>54812322
Can I raise a draw bridge without using my action? What constitutes an action between a "free action"?

>>54812336
Simultaneously, assuming they had identical triggers.

I could see using initiative order for it as an easy house rule though, assuming you didn't want to have overlapping actions occur.

>>54812286
You're making it sound significantly more complicated than it is. Certain things use an action, certain things use a bonus, and certain things use a reaction. It's always clear what's being used in the entry.
If anything was ever more complicated than it needed to be it was the earlier 3.5 stuff where they started transitioning into using swift actions, since it didn't even occur to them until a few books in

>>54812336
I would guess iniative order, but take that with a few shakers of salt b/c I don't really remember.

>>54812300
>>54812322
I'm a huge fan of Free (X Per Turn) actions except that there's no way to know if you can again merge these into some greater action.
>Can I use two of them as a Bonus Action?
>Can I do it 3+ times as a full Action?

>>54812336
I want to say Initiative order but that would punish high rollers instead of rewarding them. Maybe they ought to.

>>54812350
It's hand written with illustrations, no.

>>54812308
Bladelock/Paladin. He's basically the male equivalent of a magical girl

>>54812354
Wat
Raising a drawbridge would take several turns. There are no "free actions" in 5e.

>>54812336
For example?
If you mean opportunity attacks from an enemy moving away from 2 players reaches in a single square of movement, I usually just go in order of who said "I make an opportunity attack" first

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>>54812380
It's not vauge. The PHB specifically fucking states that using items past your free 1/turn item interaction is an action, falling under the "Use an object" action.

I swear to fucking god 80% of you retards don't even read the goddamn book. It's not very long. It's written very clearly and simply. Why can't you just read the fucking book?

>>54812445
I vaguely remember it saying a sheath+draw is two free actions combining into an Action too, but i don't know where. Either way not all free-ish actions are so cut and dried and if you houserule in something like the Free X/turn you're going to have different rates of conversion depending what it is anyway.

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>>54812445
reading hard

>>54812025
Chris Perkins is an amazing DM.
<is an amazingly terrible and autistic DM.

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>>54812380
>>54812354
Any simple interaction is free. Anything that would actually take any significant amount of time such as lowering a drawbridge is a normal action. Making more than one object interaction always requires you to make a full action.

>>54812398
"Free actions" refers to the one free interaction with an object on your turn. Since you only get one as outlined by the rules, it can be defined as a resource. It's vague because what requires an action and what you can just do is purely DM discretion (like the difference between opening a door during your turn vs. having to shove open a door that's slightly jammed.) It's intentionally vague because it has to be.

>>54812528
Yeah, but then DROPPING is almost universally considered REALLY free. As is (a reasonable amount of) talking.

>>54812534
my most common free action is just saying something like
>lets flank that fucker
or most commonly of all
>goddammit Monk

>>54812558
Well it would be really retarded to require a player to use their action just to drop something they are holding.

>>54807977

Rogue, athletics, yes.

>>54812577
I totally agree. I wouldn't even ask a DM for CEASING an action i.e. holding something. It's just more icky terminology calling shit Free instead of the classic Swift.
>Free*Free = Free
>Swift*Swift = Slow

>>54807977
>Rogues and bards, which skills did you take Expertise in? Have they served you well?
Stealth and Tools
Yes and no
Tools rarely come up but stealth is nice. I thought Perception would be a tad meta since its the single most used but debated Persuasion

Speaking of Rogues Cunning Action is way nicer than I first anticipated
I'm only level 3 and I now essentially use it every round even if its just to Dash for funzies

Which spells are more likely to break a setting, make players raise eyebrows, or turn an adventure into a farce?

>>54812645
Glad you're having fun, anon :)

>>54812604
I'm tempted to houserule Expertise won't count on passive checks to cut down on some of the cheese but that is effort and pain.

>>54812653
>break a setting
Wish
>make players raise eyebrows
Wish
>turn an adventure into a farce
Wish

>>54812653
>>54812674
Simulacrum too, a Simu-Wish Combo is exponential breakage though.

>>54809149

My goal when the party is out adventuring is 6-8 resource-spending events per 2 shorts per 1 long. I don't have any encounter goals on when non-adventuring other than as much as possible there shouldn't be any if it can be avoided.

>>54809229

Daggers make great backup weapons for the whole group because they're better than nothing for almost any build.

>>54812737
Running is usually better than fighting sub-optimally though. Darts though are pretty sweet for just anyone.
>I've got nothing better to do, lets throw some shit
VIABLE, though I'm kind of an Artificer fanboy (even if they suck)

>>54809149
In a dungeon, the standard guidelines are good.

Outside of a dungeon, they make no fucking sense.

Speaking action economy, I hate that equipping/removing a shield requires a whole action. It pretty much ensures that I will never change the state of shield on/off in the middle of a fight ever because wasting an entire action is such a huge deal. I love Shield Master but I also love grappling, so I'm pretty well reduced to sheathing my sword and grappling with my weapon hand, only being able to deal damage with the improvised weapon that is my shield. If I want to be able to grapple WHILE dealing damage, I don't get to make use of shield master at all.

Is Kensei Monk viable?

Or should I just go Open Hand?

>>54812737
I'd say daggers are nice to have in the sense of a small cutting tool, but for combat you really should have something better

>>54812780
That's the intention.

It gives a reason to not use shields if you want to grapple and it prevents people from doing shit like 'I hit with my axe, drop the axe and then put on a shield instead'.

>>54812653

Anything that allows you to resurrect a character without a price.

>>54812790
I was trying to spec out a Throwing based Kensei build the other day but I didn't get far into it. I'm not too good at pure-martials and kenseis seem to lean that way more than other monk subclasses.

I really want throwing to be cool and yet I am so bad at remembering that whole set of rules.

>>54812790
It's perfectly viable though it doesn't really have the same flashy quality to it that a lot of monk archetypes have

>>54812780
If it makes you feel any better as a DM I would totally let you add your proficiency bonus to your shield attack if you have shield master as a feat. It makes sense after all.

>>54812817
If you want to specifically have the character revolve around throwing you might be better off just going through sun soul and replace the words "radiant" and "fire" with knives. Kensai is more about melee and bows

>>54812850
I dont even really want to deal with monks, I think I read somewhere you can two-hand-fighting throw somewhere and I thought that might be a decent in for it. Or something similar with Bladelock especially with their pact weapon summoning but..... they all kinda fall flat.

>>54809020
Remove the fucking crying thing too. No self respecting adventurer would want to "cry", maybe change it to "distract" or something.

>>54812817
Why not just play a way of the Knife Asshole?

>>54809399
>science in medieval setting

>>54812906
>D&D
>medieval
I'm so sick of this meme

>>54812886

>Self-respecting
>Kobold

Funny stuff, anon.

>>54812901
Which is that? I kinda want to play any class that has a path of Knife Assholism.

>>54812906
Medieval science and natural philosophy is fuckin awesome. Mostly wrong, but awesome.

Why is it that the only good ability in the assassin subclass is gotten right at level 3? Why is everything else about it so shit.

>>54807977
I'm tempted to multiclass into rogue for Intimidation+Performance expertise and stealth prof. Barb, so I already have 3 stats to put rolls into. Would help with (most likely) middling Charisma and give me something out of combat. Speaking of multiclassing what would be good order for it? Thinking Barb 3(get ancestral guardian)->Rogue 1->Barb 5(6?)->Rogue 2 (maybe three depending on how the combat will go in campaign and whether or not I can hope to get use out of assassinate)->Barb

>>54812941
I'm pretty sure "Way of the Knife Asshole" is basically what they call >>54812850

>>54812823
This is exactly what I found out as i compared Open hand to Kensei. It seems Kensei is literally there for damage, or a ranged monk, and I dont like non caster ranged.

If you land a stun with Open hand that's practically a guaranteed push back or trip. Don't know how that really compares to the Kensei damage.

How does /tg/ feel about improvised weapons? It's my first dnd game and I'd really like to play a human silver tongue who has mastered fighting with a bar stool due to his activities, er, encouraging his practice. I was wondering if you as a dm would allow it or if it would be too silly.

>>54812947
WHAT!??

They're god-tier stealth. Abuse it.

>>54812977
>I dont like non caster ranged
Fucking what

>>54812985
You'd better be taking the Tavern Brawler feat

>>54809229
Daggers are hardly ideal weapons, though I still make sure every character I make has two of them. Daggers are always useful

>>54812985
I love improvised weapons thematically, they don't really work mechanically unless you treat them specifically as non-weapons but some other mechanic. Tavern Brawler like >>54813009 says is really more of an opening into a bonus grapple which is still fucking cool but not like... martial'ing.

You can't play Jackie Chan, from what I've seen.

>>54813009
Hunters and ranged fighters (and others) are cool, I personally have no desire to play as one.

>>54813031
I recommended Tavern Brawler because it's the only way afaik to get proficiency with improvised weapons

>>54813009
>You'd better be taking the Tavern Brawler feat
Oh hell yeah, I'm not retarded.

>>54812985
As a DM, if you rocked your backstory hard, and had a good reason through RP, I'd make it do club damage, and let you be proficient honestly.

Probably find better stools that do more damage along the way.

>>54813045
You could theoretically Pact Weapon an improvised weapon, which grants immediate proficiency. That would be silly though.
>Throw barstool
>Barstool deals bonus necrotic damage
>Action summon barstool

If you could maybe immediately dislodge a grapple into some other Maneuever type attack as a general rule (can you?) that might be an interesting take on Maneuverist.
>Barstool hit
>Grapple success
>Disarmed/Prone/Pushed
They're pretty unruled for non-Fighters afaik

>>54813071
Exactly what I was looking for, every inn we stop at I'd try to barter for a better chair(or at least, an unsullied one) and keep pushing onward.

>>54813071
I'm just imagining that while you level up, bars inexplicably have nicer/heavier stools as other party members get magical weapons

>>54811756

For sheer historical value, X1 The Isle of Dread and B2 The Keep on the Borderlands just for how influential they'd be on future module design. 1145 The Rod of Seven Parts for publicising one of the greatest artifacts of all times even though both the adventure and its version of the rod is...not great. TSR 1060 The Ruins of Undermountain and the later Expedition to Undermountain for one of the first megadungeons. For sheer meme factor T1 The Village of Hommlet if not T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil because Matt Colville hypes it really hard.

For sheer joy of playing, though. S2 White Plume Mountain. It's basically Epcot Center if it was trying to kill you, and I can't help but love that.

>>54812985
I would not only let you have proficiency in bar stools but I would let you use it as a d6 weapon with versatile (d8)

>>54813119
>>54813091
Actually that brings up another point, DOES improvised weapon have any affect on improvised Throwing weapon?

>>54812007

No. I think the 5e skill system is one of its crowning glories.

>>54813099
LOL yea it does seem kind of ridiculous doesn't it?

>>54813119
That would be ideal, I'd be weilding it two handed the majority I believe. If I didn't think it would gimp me crits shattering the barstool on the enemy's noggin but adding some effect would be glorious

>>54813149
I think proficiency is amazing also. FUCK SKILL POINTS SO MUCH, especially artificially limiting them and ARMOR CHECK MODIFIERS and all the associated bullshit.

There's nothing wrong with killing orc babies.

>>54813148
I think if it's not specifically a thrown weapon it would always do a d4 damage. I have no idea how you would deal with proficiency though.

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>>54813200
This again?

>>54812790

Kensei still needs work. I would recommend either Open Hand or Battlemaster Fighter.

>>54813200
The babies were coming right for me officer. It was in self defense

>>54813171
I think the most retarded shit was tying skill points to Intelligence. Wizards had more skill points than Rogues at high levels, and classes that desperately need skill points for out-of-combat utility like the Fighter got absolutely destroyed. Full retardation.

>>54813230
Dyez wuz gud orcz, zey dindu nuffin

>>54813152
It's like, "Man ever since we hit level 7 and you guys got those sweet +1 weapons, EVERY bar we've been to has chairs inlaid with adamantine or mithril. Strange, that."

Changing EK spell casting to constitution. Any feedback? Reason for magic will be tattoo burning on there body

>>54812930
"The many worlds of the D u n g e o n s & D r a g o n s game
are places o f m agic and monsters, of brave w arriors and
spectacular adventures. They begin with a foundation
of medieval fantasy and then add the creatures, places,
and magic that make these worlds unique.
" -PHB

>>54813246
I also like the background mechanics for rounding out a characters skill options IN GAME rather than having to get a DM to okay shit in for you based on your character. Not to say you still can't but now there's pre-accepted stuff, too. Very convenient.
>I'm a fighter but I follow a Deity, me knowing knowledge religion is Fine.
>I'm a rogue and I'm OBVIOUSLY a fucking criminal. This is Fine.
etc.

>>54813250
Babies literally can't do anything though

>>54813278
EK is suddenly the strongest fighter subclass

>>54813246
More than ever we can see 3e and it's descendant systems are complete shite

>>54813294
>>54813278
On the one hand, I appreciate Muscle Wizards. On the other Muscle Wizards are inherently broken.
it's not even THAT broken in 5e with the harder caps on ability mods

Why are rogues shafted by their class mechanics?
>one attack per turn, if you miss you get no damage/sneak dice
>you can use your bonus for an offhand attack, but say goodbye to cunning action
On the other hand, any other attacking class gets
>Take two+ attacks with -5, surely one of them will get that +10 damage

>>54813278
Con being used for anything other than HP always comes off at least a little shameless to me no matter how you justify it in fluff terms, but it's hardly game breaking.

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>>54813281

It's theme park faux-medieval. A lot of things like powerful kings, thriving urban cities, standing armies, inquisition, most advanced forms of full plate armour, and all that kind of stuff belongs in the Renaissance and Early Modern era, not the Middle Ages.

>>54813315
>Why aren't rogues fighters?
>They can't fight like fighters, their specialization is clearly combat

>>54813278
Neat idea. Could be a bit broken, could be less MAD.

Makes Con useful for something, but it also makes you the tankiest battlemage alive.

I would say that you try the option of using your CON mod instead of proficiency for your spell attack bonus and DC. That could be interesting.

>>54813326
I can't speak for everyone, but I try to put my setting firmly in 1450 without gunpowder.
I figure having fucking magic precludes industrial development, but that's just a personal thing.

>>54813338
>Makes Con useful for something
Con is already useful for HP, saving throws, and concentration

>>54813315
That's a pretty unconvincing argument. A rogue having to compromise cunning action to make up for a miss isn't really the same thing as a fighter or whatever taking a risk to do extra damage with a feat in any way.
Sneak attack is annoying in that you're expected to pretty much always have it, but the game doesn't just always let you have it (unless you're a swashbuckler). but it's also so easy to get that it's a minor problem

Would it be ridiculous to change these classes spellcasting ability to...

Druids - intellect for naming and remembering all that plant shit. Seriously, wisdom? I dunno I think that being able to remember shit and naming all those plants would require more brainpower. Plus, Nature is int.

Warlocks - Wisdom. Seriously, you need to be able to have the greatest perception in order to not fuck up some kind of deal with a god or some other thing on that level. For the same reason, their main skill could be insight for calling people on their shit.

Is this dumb or am I on to something?

>>54813327
I'm just saying that their hit-or-miss combat style doesn't scale at all compared to any other class who does physical damage.

>>54813360
I meant besides those, sorry, should have clarified. Sleepy.

>>54813298
It's actually shocking to go back and analyze it after all these years and realize just how broken the game is to its very core. Literally every design decision contributed to COMPLETELY shitting on martials while casters had a spell in their arsenal for every single situation. The skill system, the action economy, MAD; everything favored casters. The fucking druid had an animal companion that outclassed the party fighter. You have to know it was intentional. No one could possibly let this severe imbalance slip by unnoticed. There was this huge autistic demand for realism from the game that only martials had to follow. Meanwhile the other classes were literal god-kings of the multiverse.

>>54813372
>but the game doesn't just always let you have it
I can count on one hand how many times from level 1-10 I did NOT have sneak attack.

>>54813382
Their combat style is You-Miss-Maybe-I-Hit. Their evasion and escape scales, that's their combat style.

>>54813373
It's not very wise to sell your soul off to something unscrupulous, unfathomable or downright evil. Wisdom should be the warlock's dump stat.

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>>54813315
Melee rogues:
>Use Booming Blade and then run away using mobile's ability after attacking. Only one hit, but stronger.
Ranged rogues:
>Use a hand crossbow for two solid attacks a round and two chances of hitting.

Thus, most rogue archetypes are best off ranged and rogues are 'armour piercing', whereas barbarians and fighters who go strength often use GWM and thus have declining damage against higher armour targets.
Rogues can easily multiclass with any class that has extra attack without losing damage, which is great.

Rogues get uncanny dodge and are largely reliant only on a single strong stat, have an extra ASI and other class features that are probably stronger than barbarian's features beyond rage. Good skill checks and all that. They're better at at-will damage than bards, but bards have more control out of combat late-game and have more power in games that don't follow a proper adventuring day.

>>54813373
Druids become slightly worse while Warlocks either stay the same or get a slight upgrade. Not much else really changes.

Intellect is the worst stat in the game.

>>54813422
And autists screeched so hard to retain its legacy that it directly birthed pathfinder and killed off 4e.

>>54813373
Druid powers always seemed more intuitive than memorized to me with how they interact with plants and animals, watch stars, etc. The idea of them being an int based class makes them seem more like a nature scientist wizard or something

Warlocks I could see working under pretty much any mental stat. In some ways they seem like an Int caster that just got a head start. In others they're communing with something similar to a god like a cleric. In others they're using magic made intuitive to them like a sorcerer or bard. Cha is probably the most open ended of them though

>>54813373
>>54813480
If a druid wants to know the name of a plant it can just ask. Otherwise VERY specific knowledge would fall under something like Alchemy where they put in the effort to learn a skill while still being kind of a tard.

>>54813500
>Yo plant, what's your name?
>Drew

>>54813373
Warlock should be intellect, honestly, but you may as well say 'players may choose either charisma or intellect'.
Druids are a classic case of wisdom and should not be changed.

Warlocks being intellect not only balances out casters (2 full cha casters, 2 full wis casters, 2 full int casters) but also just makes sense.


There are two kinds of warlocks:
Warlocks who harness eldritch magic through study and practice (As suggested for the 'the patron doesn't know their magic is being used' scenario) and
Warlocks who make a pact and harness the magic given from that.

As such, they should be able to choose if they use charisma or intellect.

>>54813373
What the fuck does perception have to do with deal making?

>>54813281
"medieval" is commonly taken to mean "fourteenth century Europe" which means that barring other factors they are right on the cusp of making Renaissance-era discoveries in things like physics and chemistry

>>54813520
He probably meant insight.

>>54813520
gonna want to see that betrayal coming a mile away.

>>54813518
I personally like to see CHA casters as like... they don't really have any idea what they're doing but things just work out for them anyway. Positive attitude, self confidence, etc.
>Yeah, so I sold my soul to a demon... but I found a silver piece! Today is a good day.

>>54813518
Things get dicey if you allow spellcasters to choose their own casting stat. Do they get to choose their save proficiencies too?

>>54813500
You know, I never thought of that. That's smart.

To paint D&D just under the paintbrush of medieval fantasy is really selling it short and being disingenuous, see Ravenloft, Eberron, Planescape, Dark Sun etc. None of those would be considered medieval fantasy.

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>>54813535

>>54813540
If you say "No multiclassing with weird casting stats" it would probably contain any weird builds that might come out of it while allowing someone to get the character they wanted right, but I agree with you that it's not really worth it

>>54813540
>Choose between a minor save stat with pretty okay skills but no other big use or a minor save stat with pretty okay skills and no other big use
>On a class that's already hardly overpowered
>And multiclassing into wizard has no distinct synergies
Yeah, no, not even a munchkin can accurately weigh the value of 'being good at knowledge checks' against 'being good at social checks'.

>>54813539
Yeah, but some warlocks are kinda just essentially occultist wizards, and it's perfectly fine to represent them with intellect.
You don't just walk down the street one day and get blessed by hastur without them knowing about it, you get some fucking books and you read up 'how to be a cultist piece of shit'.

>>54813575
I think those occultist type warlocks come off as more... conspiracy theorist types. Definitely failed a few Wis saves in his time. I really like the Tomelock as that archetype because clearly they gather up all the insane scribblings and then sort of fumble that into a working action.
>So this torn page started a ritual.... but it was missing the second part
>And then this other random pamphlet I got for a free drink refill kind of fit if I scribed it in reverse
>BEHOLD, MAGIC

>>54813602
Yeah. No matter what, warlocks are definitely not good on wisdom unless you want to play one like that. Intellect is good for those bookey sorts and charisma is good for the sort that would have a familiar, I guess, but there's mix and match possibilities.

How many pages/squires/servants/camp followers would make sense for a typical PC party of say 5?

>>54813515

"You've got a drink named Steve?"

>>54813616
They don't have the dedication or raw talent to push into a real school though, I'm not sure if that really would fall under int or just general character stuff. They were a semi-slacker and took the demon shortcut. I think the demon-sided stuff would definitely try and prey on the less intelligent/wise generally.
>DID NOT READ THE FINE PRINT

Definitely see CHA for familiar stuff since they push them BEYOND a standard familiar-contract.

>>54813657
>They don't have the dedication or raw talent to push into a real school though
That could simply be low wisdom rather than low intellect. Or maybe they could have gone to school but school wouldn't allow them to persue their arts, or they were kicked out of wizard school, or they did go but ended up getting levels of warlock because that was where their focus was.

Demons don't always have to be the 'shortcut', just another line of magic.

>>54813657
>>54813677
Did not read the fine print is very specifically low wisdom.

I never really understood why Sorcerer is a Charisma class. If they're just channeling their own magical energy that inherently exists in their bodies and casting spells with it, wouldn't that be Wisdom? It's an intuitive, instinctual thing.

>>54813677
Well I consider wizards making contracts the long/safe route. They know what they're getting into and have worked out the kinks. Warlocks don't have that MECHANICALLY but then if you roll a high INT lock, maybe it would work.

>>54813700
But defining your own fine print stuff is specifically high INT or lots of research/effort. See there's not really a stat that describes how dedicated they are to getting a thing, it happens despite stats not because of it. The tendancy to go that extra mile of effort in this thing seems like it would require wis or maybe extra caution derived from int.

But it does not actually set them up as a thing in itself. Warlocks are really a wonky class to theorize about, they're like 3.5E bards design-wise (without shitty Perform) but potentially as much MAD/lack of specialization.

>>54813700
Intellect tells you 'Given the nature of what you're making a deal with, they will want something in return and there is likely fine print. The following information is the fine print:'
All wisdom does is say 'Hey, someone wrote really small in this book' or 'hey, this demon you're talking to is a liar!'
However, after acknowleding the fine print, wisdom helps you say 'Yeah, let's be real, you're not going to outsmart an otherworldly entity this really is not a good idea what the fuck are you doing' whereas high intellect low wisdom says 'I'm smarter than this otherworldly entity!'

>>54813712
IMO it's because charisma is supposed to be force of will and personality, which includes persuasion, intimidation, lying, and summoning up your inherent magical powers.

>>54813712
Sorcs are the whole reason I really came up with my >>54813539 self-confidence based power. Sure, if it's natural you MIGHT be good at it if you really believe in yourself power of Heart

>>54813712
Wisdom isn't about instinct. It's about awareness. Clerics, druids, and rangers, see the signs of the divine and spirits of nature around them, and the greater their awareness, the better they can harness it.

Charisma is often used as a measure of force of will. It helps you stay on one plane of existence, and stay in your own body. For sorcerers, it's how well they can exert their will and channel their innate magic. There is an argument for making them Con casters but like, come on.

>>54813730
>>54813733
What cements the fact the warlock shouldn't be wis based is beause you sold part of or all of your soul to entity with unscrupulous, actively or unconsciously malign entity.

>>54813441
Can you explain what you mean when you say they don't lose damage for multiclassing? Their sneak attack would stop scaling, no?

>>54813785
your soul to an unscrupulous, actively or unconsciously malign entity.

>>54813785
It's really just kind of shit choices for the concept. Every boon/pact could have its own equally viable stat choice and they're barely even a caster class anyway. Just makes me double down on thinking they're a poorly designed mess propped up by a strong but ugly set of bonus feats.

.. the fluff is really fucking good though. Really good.

>>54813795
He's just saying that the extra damage from extra attack is basically the same as more damage from sneak attack (arguably better since it means you're that much more likely to land a sneak attack that round)

>>54813821
The pact of the blade should really give the extra attack for free and instead the choice given should be that of picking a fighting style.

>>54813821
>>54813866
But trying in a different stat for each pact would make it too complicated whereas 5e is all about streamlining.

>>54813886
Oh totally but is warlock streamlined currently? Every piece of their kit feels completely disjointed and incompatible with every other and then it sort of fumbles into being kind of effective anyway.