>if you kill me, you'll be just like me! >good cannot

>"ok then" -kills-
>"i guess it'll have to be someone else's evil"
>"i don't know you seem to be pretty evil to me right about now"

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I rarely encounter any of those... Except for superhero comics, where everybody has such a hard on for the Joker that killing him is treated like an act worse than comitting the Holocaust. The second Superman killed him in Injustice, everbody started treating him like he's Hitler's second coming.

That kind of thinking often seeps into superhero tabletop, and it's annoying me greatly. Now, I'm not arguing for the Punisher-style kill'em all, but how about some middle ground? Say, try not to kill people, but if you have to, well, that's life for you. You know, the way people do it in real life.

>>54736449
But OP, how can you put emphasis on just how irredeemably evil your villains are without them spouting stupid moral relativist shit like this?

>>54736556
hey I didn't know about that storyline thanks, piratebaying

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And they die without a response.

I'm here to kill them and there isn't anything that they can say that will make me not want to kill them.

>>54736449

It really doesn't matter to PCs. For some reason, my GM was really pissed when I just went "I don't really get it, but okay then" and stabbed the villain after his big speech.

Like, what did he expect? We came all the way to kill this guy. We're not about to change our minds, whatever he's saying!

>>54736641
>For some reason, my GM was really pissed
Bad GM. A good GM would roll with it.

>>54736641
was he petty enough to improvise some punishment for killing him, or did he do the good GM thing and improvise something else after you ruined the plan he had with the bad guy alive?
>>54736657
eh, happened to me too until I learned not do railroading. when you are unexperienced making shit up looks way scarier than it is.

>>54736449
>>good cannot exist without evil!
Technically true but I agree the usual sentiment behind the statement is puerile.

>>54736706
how is that true in any sense

>>54736556
Actually, it was pretty much only Batman who acted like Supes was worse than Hitler at that moment. Superman was pretty justified, and everyone else knew it.

It was later on when Superman started acting like an asshole dictator that everyone started treating him like an asshole dictator.

>>54736685

That was the end of the campaign, but the salt lingered.

>>54736755
In the sense that you can only really define conflicting morals if they have something to conflict against. If good is the only thing around, then it's just the status quo. You can't be "the good guy" if that's just normal for everyone.
But that doesn't actually mean anything other than dumb wordplay, so who cares.

>>54736755
Good and evil are on opposite sides of the same axis. Labeling an action as "evil" necessarily implies that there is some"good" that the evil action is in violation of.

>>54736556
I think comics have developed a lot of that shit out of function. The whole "if you kill me, you'll be just like me!" line is pretty convenient for things like keeping the same characters alive for 70 years or whatever

>>54736556
The reason why it's such a big thing in the Superhero genre is that they need recurring villains popular enough to sell comics and merchandise, and the villains are often the bigger draw than the heroes. In addition, if you kill off villains, you have to replace them with new ones, something no one wants to do because it means that you have to start from scratch making a villain popular with readers.

As such, villains may change in aesthetics and attitude over time, but they'll almost never be killed off for good unless DC/Marvel can't picture being able to squeeze more money out of them showing up again.

>>54737042
Well, yeah. I've heard that nowadays, the writers seem to realize how fucking absurd the Joker situation is, so every comic where he's defeated ends not with him being carted away to Arkham, so he can escape five minutes later, but seemingly dying.

>>54737175
The proper response *should* be to take advantage of one of their every-six-months at this point Major Retcons to reconfigure the Joker back into NOT BEING A COMPLETELY UNUSABLE CHARACTER.
But no, Alan Moore was a genius, so we can't possibly make the Joker anything other then a painfully boring serial killer who's only interesting because of Nicholson, Hamill, and Ledger.

>>54736449
.Kills them

"Strange. I don't feel any different. Friend Paladin, and I pinging evil?"

"Nope."

"Then I guess moral relativism really is mealy-mouthed bullshit."

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>>54737555

>>54736449
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
>kill him anyways
>he possesses you and you turn into him

>>54736755
The absence of evil implies the absence of a moral structure which judges actions, therefore "good" as a concept loses meaning. There is no good or evil, only things that happen.

>>54736449
>They don't gonna stop! It, that world, is not only made of me.
>You can't end this
Kiddo forgets we have mass destruction spells because MAGIK

>>54738134
What did he mean by this?

>>54738134
>They don't gonna stop! It, that world, is not only made of me.
Sure, we can't fix the whole world, but we can make it just a little bit better. *blam*

>>54738161
He's one of these parasites, but he born as "parasite human"

So he's important and thinks we can't destroy every of them.

So that happened; >>54738215

>>54737104
They could just shelve both the heroes -and- villains. Let the stories END.

>>54738421
You know pretty damn well why it's impossible.

>>54738465
I don't care WHY. I'm sick of capeshit being the same fucking shit.

>>54738421
But then they wouldn't be able to cash in on fans' multi-decade emotional investment into the characters. Moder cape writers can't make audiences invested in their characters, so they have to parasite off of existing investment.

That's why they couldn't have a comic about a female asgardian or cancer-Jane getting powers some other way, it had to be Lady Thor.

>>54736449
I give you the last two, but
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
\is great when done right. Hannibal series was a great deal about it and it was awesome.

>>54738521
In other words, it's a borderline incestual industry where new ideas are pigeonholed into the same old formula.

Why are so many people talking about moral relativism in this thread? The only relativistic statement in the OP is the last one, and that's just a good idea executed poorly. Aside from the rare born psycho, everyone who does evil things has reasons why they do, and everyone thinks of themselves as the good guys. Even cultures that mercilessly slaughter and pillage other groups are filled with people with their own hopes, ideals, and loved ones. The trick is that none of that changes that sometimes the best way to stop someone from doing bad shit is to put a bit of metal through their brain.

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>>54738029
>no one ever hurt anybody

>>54736556
Why hasn't Joker been sentenced to execution a court of law? The guy is a mass murderer who has been escaping the highest security facilities for almost a century, you'd think by now a jury would have given him the death penalty.

I prefer when the villain says something along the lines of "I knew you wouldn't do it" when the Hero is about to kill the bad guy but stops.

>>54739032
More importantly, why hasn't Gotham's obviously corrupt police force ensured he had an 'accident' on the way to the trial or prison? Sure some of the guys there might as well just be mobsters with badges, but even the mobsters in Gotham have families and dislike the Joker.

>>54739032
I would had thought at some point a guard or officer would have just shot him as soon they gained custody of him.

>>54736449

You have merely embraced the dark. I was born in it.

>>54739259
Batman would then proceed to make the life of that officer a living hell for killing his gay lover and drive him insane, because murder is bad, no nuance possible.
And then Joker would turn out to just faked his death somehow. Come on, you know how the comics work.

>>54736559
>But OP, how can you put emphasis on just how irredeemably evil your villains are without them spouting stupid moral relativist shit like this?
by having them not even care that what they are doing is evil? unless you are trying to go for this thing where the villain seems like this big, menacing beast only to discover that he's quite pathetic when you finally meet him in person.

>>54739236
I'm sure that some have tried, and that such attempts have resulted in some of his numerous escapes.

>>54739301
Well that's because comics need to keep him around since they want to keep selling him; from a story perspective the Joker really should be dead.

>>54739334
Probably true. Personally, I think it'd be better to just not have the Joker be quite as efficient at the whole mass murder thing. I mean, I've seen Joker gas range from killing someone in seconds with a smile on their face, to causing laughing fits that last for days before eventually making them comatose, but having a possible cure for that.

There's a lot less reason to kill the joker in such a spiteful way if rather than killing hundreds or thousands whenever he uses his signature gas in a plot, he just hospitalizes them instead.

That actually makes Batman's constant fighting of him still helpful, since the Joker running rampant would basically just grind the city to a standstill as people flee the city to get their loved ones to hospitals.

You'd still have people arguing to kill him, since he'd still be a skilled knife-fighter and sociopath on top of this who would probably kill several people along the way in his plans anyway, but it would be on a scale of a normal serial killer, rather than having a terrorist-level death toll occurring whenever he breaks out of prison.

>>54738545
For some reason this is making the popularity of manga and anime make a little bit more sense to me.

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>>54736449
"Nah."

>>54736449
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
>"That's not true. I won't be such a push-over.""

>>54738852
>HUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRR BATMAN DOESN'T KILL!!!!!!!!!!

>>54739334

>Batman brings the Joker in batcuffs and tied with batrope. Gives the insane murderer a stern look and turns him over the the gaurds, knowing full well the Joker just escape to kill more people, and justifying his own dementia.

Guards take him, Batman walk off, hears a single gunshot. He whirls around to see the Joker facedown, contents of his skull scattered across the cracked linoleum, and a squad of SWAT officers overseeing the cleanup.

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>>54736636
I had a GM who loved to do that kind of monologue BS to try and get us to consider how out party and the BBEG weren't so different. Just that the BBEG was an insane king who ran his country into the ground with dumb demands and pointless wars, one of which lead us to kicking in his door.

So the GM reads off this minute and a half long prepared speech and looks at us, hoping we'll have some kind of deep revelation.
>mfw the barbarian just took a warhammer to his face and we all went to have lunch and watch the capital burn

GM was a cool dude, but he was bad at drama

>>54739032
There's been more than one Joker

>>54739259
>>54740025
>I would had thought at some point a guard or officer would have just shot him as soon they gained custody of him.

Daily reminder that these characters came about pre-9/11, when we were still trying to have ideals, or at least pretending to strive for higher standards of justice.

>>54740768
You say this about cape comics, which were just emerging from the edgefest of the 90s at the time.

>>54736612
>Anon somehow missed the butlering
Come for the video game tonight in, stick around for Alfred pennyworth's sick Burns

>>54740768
I would think there is a difference between holding a higher standard of ideas and taking a mass murder to the same jail that he already has broken out of like 20 times. There should be a shot to kill order out on him.

>>54740860
>taking a mass murder
At what point does Mass order cross over into genocide/crimes against humanity. Because the joker has used both chemical and nuclear weapons to kill people. And we were executing folks like that with glee long before the planes hit the wtc

>>54736449
So, do they have to have a significantly lower rape/pillage frequency than humans to justify not genociding them, or can they be in the same ballpark?

>>54740768
Holy fucking shit, underage detected. You say that as though we had ideals after the kikes got us into WWII or something.

>>54741104
>defend yourself after being attacked
>losing ideals
If anything, ideals were lost once we started dicking around in other countries like the Euros were doing at the time.

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>>54736449
>objective morality
>not using your goddamn brain to decide what to do

And if you need a roleplaying game manual to tell you right from wrong, then frankly you have bigger problems to deal with.

>>54736449
>Nah. I'll still be alive.

>>54736449
Anyone who tries that with any of my characters, no matter how LG they are, gets executed on the spot. Any enemy who tries mind-games, especially cliche ones, is an enemy that's better off dead.

>>54736559
It's simple: moral relativism is the most degenerate and vile thing someone can believe in.

>>54736906
This, yea.

Injustice Supes only really started to be regarded as the villain when he was rounding up entire prison populations to be executed. Practically no one blamed him for Joker besides Batman.

Still though, that talk before the final fight in 2 was super good.

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I have a True Neutral Cleric who believes in a mantra similar to Yin and Yang. Yes, it is true that Good cannot exist with Evil, but balance must be maintained.
And it is often true that Evil has a much greater weight to it that Good, so he has absolutely no problems killing rampaging Orcs or a Lich or keeping the peace in general. Men must be greedy to pursue progress and greater things, they must have foes to fight and challenge themselves against or they will become weak and complacent, there must be the temptation of Evil for the Pure of Heart to fight against lest they fall to their own vices and bigotry without something greater than themselves to stand against.

So long story short, he had no problems caving in the BBEG's face as soon as he tried to have some big epic speech to try and persuade the party. You burned down a village to prove a point, you threw all the Yin and Yang to the Nine Hells you narcissistic grandstanding twit.

>>54739032
Under Texas law, he never stole a horse.

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>>54741691

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Act like this guy one time during a session, get kicked out of the group.

DM: You could of reeducate them!
Me: I'm here to kill, maim, burn.

>>54736945

I dunno, man.

You get free candy.
You get free vegetables.

Vegetables are not as good a get as candy, so now are you saying it's evil to get free vegetables?

At any rate, it's less-good. So 'evil' is a pretty slidy scale.

Because they're modern day super HEROES.

HEROES don't kill people. Villians use guns, heroes use fists. Villians kill people, heroes capture and turn them in and save innocents.

This doesn't mean Villians are immortal or necessarily always 'spared', when the bad guy drops to zero HP his jet pack might malfunction and send him flying into the sun, or his acid powers might overflow and spill on him sure, but the HEROES never killed him.

This is how you play super HEROES. If your characters kill people they aren't heroes, they might be good modern vigilantees but don't call them Heroes.

>>54736449
Are you complaining about something in particular or just complaining because you don't actually hage a real game to talk about?

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>>54736556
Have some Ramos

>>54736906
I kind of feels like the slippery slope argument.
And when he started slipping, only batman with his super strict morals cared.

>>54742069
Why the fuck would a DM put this shitty old dilemma into his game if he's only gonna accept one answer? Not sure i believe you.

>>54742244

You're a faggot.

>>54742244
Your view of heroism belongs to TV for young children.

Heroes can absolutely kill people.

Heroism has to do with why you do things and the net result for the greater good.

If you have to kill a serial killer to make that happen because the evidence required to get a conviction has been destroyed, then that's what you do.

>>54742172
Spotted the fat-ass.

You mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH3bDPNGHw

>>54736449
>I didn't expect you to be -this- dumb, honestly.
>Interesting theory. Let's see how that works out for you.
I wouldn't deign the last one with a response. The villain is dead anyway.

>>54736556
I am glad that this did not happen to me when I played in my superhero game last saturday...

We basically had to try and stop an outbreak of zombies first in India, then in China: when we got to India we found there were two carriers of the virus who were infecting people: they were a teleporter and a ghost, two very annoying types of enemies. Basically what the teleporter did was just teleport away for thousands of miles to China.

We cleaned up the place of the outbreak and then the news we heard was there was an outbreak in China: so my character saw what these guys were doing... with the dead women and kids who were turned into zombies and went into a cold, murderous rage.

Once our own teleporter got us to the zone of China where there was an outbreak, we managed to find the teleporter and the ghost in a brothel, planning to infect more whores and cause the virus to spread. So we are teleported in, my character goes in first and drops the teleporter with a couple of well-rolled attacks. The team reaches us and manage to drop the ghost too...

Long story short, my character accompanies our teleporter and the ghost cannot be touched even in a power-nullifying cell. So what we do is teleport back to China, where my character blasts the unconscious teleporter who was starting to get conscious again, first back to unconsciousness and then to a dying state, killing him in a couple of rounds.

We took care of the ghost by teleporting him hundred of miles away from the earth and into space, after discovering that my character could not kill him because the ghost was effectively immortal.

>>54742069
Okay, thing about that story's goblins is that they are pure parasites who require human (or Demi-human) women to reproduce, use them up quickly and kill them, or let them die horribly. They are not a species that can sustain itself, and if they are allowed to run rampant they are basically an extinction event for humans and others, and then they'd quickly die out too because -oops, no more women!

They're parasites worse than bot-flies or tape worms or those horrible brain-eating fungi in insects. If humanity is to live, they need to die. Also I heard somewhere they are from the Moon. What's up with that?

>>54736515
"I guess I'll have to be someone else's evil" is my new favourite one-liner.

>>54736449
>kill someone without giving them a fair trial
>I'm the GOOD guy

>>54739032

Because he's legally insane so he keeps getting carted off to Arkham instead.

They DID once try to get him declared medically sane just so they could execute him, but then it turned out that the crime they were trying him for was actually somebody else framing him.

I don't know why they didn't try that shit again though.

>>54741500
You must have a hard time coping with reality.

>>54737042
Comicbooks need to come to an end, not be dragged on forever

>>54740025

I think someone does try to in Brubakers GCPD don't they? He just ends up escaping.

>>54743488
Why doesn't Superman just put Joker in the Phantom Zone?

>>54743488
Joker is not legally insane, he's entirely cognizant of the effects of his repeated terrorist attacks.

Comicbook writers just don't know shit about mental health or law, and certainly don't know what an "insanity plea" entails.

>>54743488
>but then it turned out that the crime they were trying him for was actually somebody else framing him.
Don't forget it was Batman the one who found the culprit because, as usual, NOT MUH JOKAH

>>54738421
Dragonball Super is the fucking worst, it has all the issues of shitty shonen AND neverending comicbooks packed into one terrible series.

>>54743359
Don't you know, good guys always have the answer and it's surprisingly always at the sharp end of a sword. Now move along, before a good guy sees you.

>>54736449
'Nah.'
'Okay, let's keep the evil to the bare minimum.'
'Raping and pillaging is not innocent.'

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>>54736449
>>we're just innocent raping and pillaging species, you only kill us because we're labeled evil!
Actually really like this. when you have a people who are absolutely despicable but act like they are the victims.

>>54743532

Well, I assumed that went without saying.

>>54743518

Because heroes rogues galleries are usually fairly well insulated from each others and Superman HATES going to Gotham.
Batman got VERY uptight with Flash for instance when one of his Rogues killed Tim Drakes dad.

So Superman usually has very little interaction with the Joker as a result.
The exception being JLA cartoons which usually dampens down Jokers murdering a lot.

>>54742026
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmQEsjhEsLw

>>54742530
>Heroism has to do with why you do things and the net result for the greater good.

Edgy McEdgelord comes to join the thread.

'The greater good' is a fucking cliche. You can justify absolutely anything for the greater good. The US army burning Vietnamese children with napalm? It was necessary for the greater good. Supporting the Contras? Helped the greater good in the long run. Al-queda flying airplanes into buildings? Did it for the greater good etc.

Hey, did you know that if we just remove all the undesirables and destroy international communism it will usher in a thousand year era of peace and progress. What kind of monster would oppose an unparalleled age of total peace and prosperity for the whole human race just to save a few million lives? Bring on the holocaust!

>>54743911
>Namefag
What, you aren't even smart enough to figure out how to use a trip?

>>54736515
>all the good in the world takes turns being other people's evil so actual evil doesn't get a look in

>>54743955
You seem to be operating under a mistaken idea that there are good people and bad people.

>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
Even sheep can tell the difference between a wolf and a dog.

>>54743561
that can't really work if you use the word rape and pillage though because it implies an understanding or acceptance that what they're doing considered is morally wrong. Try instead

>You degenerates call us evil but this is the only way to save civilisation
or
>we don't steal because we want to, your people have taken our land, killed our leaders and barred us from society. How do you expect us to survive?

>>54744021
>we don't steal because we want to, your people have taken our land, killed our leaders and barred us from society. How do you expect us to survive?
"We don't"

>>54740768
When your ability to contain a known threat is shown to be utterly fallible time and time again, straight up field executions of repeat mass murders are justice.

>>54744030
sure but then you don't get to claim the moral high ground

unless you call it manifest destiny, then it's okay

>>54744021
Idunno, man. There are people today that do that but claim that they are doing the right thing.

>>54743488
And what crime exactly was that hedious that they actually wanted to execute him?

>>54744076

Replacing the lickable gum on postage stamps with lethal Joker toxin.
You know, usual Joker stuff.

>>54736449
tell me how often that actualy happens, and then show me at what instances it did happen

>>54744058
2000 years ago these were our lands, invader. Prepare to be bulldozed.

>>54738054
Fucks sake Xehanort calm down we've already had enough of your weirdy bullshit.

>>54742244
>HEROES don't murder people.
FTFY

>>54742530
>the net result for the greater good.
>If you have to kill a serial killer to make that happen because the evidence required to get a conviction has been destroyed, then that's what you do.
You should not be posting about heroes, or anything else you don't understand, really.

>>54744161
or 200 even, when was the trail of tears? pretty sure it was around 200 or thereabouts

or look at somewhere like cyprus or india/pakistan/bangladesh there are people alive today who remember when they lived on their families ancestral home on the other side of the border

>>54744161
>any conquest which occurred before we stopped conquering is morally right
>any conquest which occurs after we stopped conquering is morally wrong

>>54744410
Not saying that you don't have a point, but have you ever tried "unconquering" someone after you've realized it's wrong?
That shit's hard.
Damn near impossible.

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>>54740768
You're right the idea of cops carrying out summary executions was completely alien before 9/11

>>54744559
fun fact, that guy getting shot was a cop murderer who targeted police families, breaking into homes and murdering everyone in them.

>b-but you're a Paladin!

The first time I out down a BBEG he went into exile for penance. Later the group had to beg him to come back due to another threat.

Now he's gone full on Johnathan Edwards/Reverend Ray McCall, and it doesn't hurt he has the setting's equivalent of the Spectre whispering in his ears now.

>>54744559

You're aware that the guy getting shot in the head completely deserved it, right? He was a piece of shit with multiple murders under his belt.

Why do we even let reporters in the area, anyway?

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>>54744699
There ARE some pieces of shit out there that care more about their ego than anything else.
>MUH FREEDOM OF THE PRESS

>>54744699
And?
That just makes it more like >>54740025 and makes >>54740768 look like even more of a retard who's completely ignorant of history

>>54744729
>Reporter taking an incriminating photo out of context.
Can't wait to see how this clusterfuck plays out.

>>54744559
Way to completely miss the context of that photo.

>>54744699
In that case the photographer actually admitted fault and tried to clear up the issue.

>>54742172
But this is literally how the human mind works though. If you don't understand that you don't have any grasp of history. E.g. the current vogue for SJW shit is entirely because we got rid of everything that was worse, so now racism is the worst possible thing. It's proof of how sheltered and safe the current generations grew up compared to those who came before that they care about that stuff. Fixing evil didn't lead to contentment, because people don't work that way; instead, they fixated on new stuff as evil, when that was previously considered unfortunate at most.

>>54744814
>Fixing evil didn't lead to contentment
Que? What evil has been fixed?

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>people unironically think like this
Fug man, I hate the 'kill me means you ARE me' meme, so dumb. It doesn't even make sense, like are you saying that a guy mass-murdering for shits and giggles and a hero being forced to kill said murderer to prevent thousands more deaths is the same thing?


I had a terrible experience with this though. One of the first campaigns I ever did I ended up playing a religious character (catholicfag ooc too, so not too difficult), and read through the summa theologica and various things to set up a cool and unique, yet logical, code for punishment, vengeance, and killing.

But nope killingisbadlol, a "hero" would never kill monsters to save people, that's evil stuff- like what soldiers do!

>>54736449
>If you kill me you'll be just as bad as me!
"The Lord didn't say 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. It's more accurately 'Thou Shalt Not Kill an Innocent'."
>blam
"It's a pretty common translation error though. Can't blame you for missing it."

>>54743971
There are only good people, only some of them forget it.
Sometimes they just get too far from it and can't be saved.

>>54745003
>One of the first campaigns I ever did I ended up playing a religious character (catholicfag ooc too, so not too difficult), and read through the summa theologica and various things to set up a cool and unique, yet logical, code for punishment, vengeance, and killing.

Are you me?

>>54738492
>they should just stop making money because I don't like it!

Anon you're a retard

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>>54745027
Yes

>>54745009
There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

>>54743277
In-universe I think it was just a theory that someone had about them.

>>54745148
Vetinari is an overhyped faggot.

>>54745183
All men are sinners, friend.

>>54745183
Vetinari has style though, you can spout all the bullshit you want as long as you can make it sound and look good.

>>54743561
Anon, this is happening in real life.

>>54745148
>Implying anyone will be willingly bad
>Implying you don't have to ignore your pity and remorse if you are to do bad things

>>54745947
Some people are actual sociopaths.

>>54743955

>Alright, you guys are up. What's your evil for this year?
>We proclaim that butter is in fact good for you!
>Ne'erdowell! We all know it raises your cholesterol!

>>54745947
Guess it depends what is meant by bad.
Given that this is a Pratchett quote, I'd assume that bad means not a Marxist rather than in violation of Gods law or the natural order

>>54746037
In hindsight was Pratchett always rather preachy or did it simply get worse as his condition worsened?

>>54746069
He's been spouting marxist shit since the 80's. He might not have had brain rot back then but he was clearly always mentally ill

>>54746160
You disgrace the noble name of /pol/, you abominable nigger.

>>54746184
>>/reddit/

>>54745976
Even sociopaths won't be bad for the sake of it. It's just way easier to ignore pity and remorse when you don't have them.

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>>54746266
Yes, you probably should go back.

>>54746037
What is inherently wrong is what lessens the general happiness.
Since pain leaves more durable marks than pleasure or temporary happiness, the ratio between the two is not 1:1, so torturing someone for pleasure is still a bad thing.

>>54739505
My Insect.

>>54736449
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
Who says I won't be worse than you?
The only reason I'm killing you is to take over where you failed.

Ultilitarism is a moral pathway that believes that whatever action causes the most joy for the most people is the moral action.

It is very applicable in this case

>>54747563
Not necessarily; Utilitarianism believes that whichever action most increases utility in the long term (or, more precisely, actions that maximize utility) are moral actions.

Joy and pleasure are the most common utility, but utility can be defined as anything.

>>54736556
I honestly loved how Batfleck handled this. He didn't go out of his way to kill people, he never went on a mission to specifically kill anyone other than Superman, but if a bad guy got in his way, he wouldn't pull his punches. Like the guy with the grenade. Batman defended himself, but he just didn't bother to save the guy from his own dumbass mistake.

>>54736449
>>good cannot exist without evil!
My response would be "There will always be evil," before I kill him.

>>54742172
Vegetables can have a way higher nutritional and even monetary value than candy... Why would i want free candy if i could have free veggies? Free Veggies will safe me way more money, so candy is evil

>>54736449
When I first watched Star Wars back when I was 5 or 6, I thought this happened with Darth Vader and Luke's dad.
I guess I thought of it like some sort of literal "you keep what you kill" thing, that Vader WAS a separate person from Luke's dad, but BECAME Luke's dad after killing him.

Do keep in mind that I had no idea about the whole sex and genetics part of parenthood at the time.

>>54748281
Batfleck was a psychopath

>IMMA KILL JOO
>Pisses around to get his jollies instead of going for the kill
>WHY'D YOU SAY DAT NAME!?!

Also why the fuck a Spear, Batman?
And why did Superman have to use it, instead of the superhuman woman not allergic to it dressed up in grecian armor using classical weapons to fight with.

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>>54748542
YOU TURNED CANDY AGAINST ME!

>>54739493
I once had an idea to try and round up a bunch of aspiring comic writers and put together an American made version of something akin to Shonen Jump. Everyone is writing stories across a wide range of genres that are all intended to be self contained and have definite ends. More popular stories get picked up for longer runs, less popular ones get dropped after the original planned conclusion.

>>54745718
Yes, and often from both sides, though not always.

>>54736449
The very worst example of that
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
Is when the hero(es) blaze their way through the mook with abandon, slaughter them by the hundreds on the way to the boss, but as soon as the boss is on the ropes suddenly this bullshit is whipped out (worse when its a love interest or something that says it to the hero who he agrees and turns his back... just so the villain can do something stupid that gets himself killed, still removing the problem but letting the hero get off without having to 'get his hands dirty' doing so).

Like somehow the life of the one commanding them is worth so much more than all the henchmen just because he's a more notable character.
Badly written hypocritical trash.

>>54751009
>all life is equally valuable
Wrong

>>54736449
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!

Now, you say that, but you've been running amok, killing people willy-nilly, for no reason.

I'm here to kill you precisely because you've been randomly killing people. You are a proven threat to society, and need to be destroyed.

>Ah, but you must take me prisoner! I am unarmed, and at your mercy! It would be an act of Evil to kill me now!

Okay, first off, there's no way I'm falling for that a third time. What kind of idiot do you take me for?

Second, I expected you to bring up prison, so I went and talked to a magistrate before I came out here, and explained what your whole deal was. See this document? It's a warrant for your execution. All signed and legal, with all that squiggly writing that lawyers love so much. This document gives me the legal authority to kill your ass, right here, right now. And there's a copy back at the courthouse, so even if I lose this one, the warrant still stands.

Any last words?

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>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!

Only insofar as us both being murderers.

>good cannot exist without evil!

No shit, and when that evil comes along I or someone else will stab it in the face like I did with you.

>we're just innocent raping and pillaging species, you only kill us because we're labeled evil!

I'm killing you because you keep fucking with shit and I'd rather deal with it now rather than when it's at my doorstep. Getting paid for this and being able to loot your corpse is an added bonus.

>>54751656
A thousand mooks deserved to live less than Baron Satan Von Worldeater? Fuck off

>>54749977
There's been attempts to establish similar models like Kazu Kibuishi's Flight anthology series, but the issue is that it's a sort of chicken-and-egg problem at this point.

Manga anthologies do well in Japan because they've developed a market over time and have thus built an infrastructure that has created big economies of scale with a consumer base that is acclimated to reading anthology serials. France has developed the same sort of thing, but building the same sort of expectation in the USA would be very difficult; I feel American audiences far prefer to pay "a la carte".

I think the future really needs to involve using some sort of digital publishing platform on a subscription model.

>>54736449
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!

I'll be alive and you'll be dead.

>good cannot exist without evil!
maybe if you cracked open a bible or something you wouldn't be evil and theologically illiterate.

>we're just innocent raping and pillaging species, you only kill us because we're labeled evil!
A rose by any other name is still a rose. You're evil to us, so we kill you; because subjective morality implies existing morality, not its absence.

>>54752229
In that situation, no, but you're still implying that all life is equally valuable.

Baron Satan Von Worldeater may not deserve to live more than his thousand mooks, but The Magnanimous and Beneficent Philosopher-King McJesus certainly has more going for him than his semi-nameless guards.

A peasant just isn't intrinsically worth the same as a king.

>>54752684
Where to start with this...

>>54755155
Egalitarian cuccboi.

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>>54755264
That's all you have to fire at me?

>>54743561
>>54744021
There are times in history where that shit was seen as justified if the other side is seen as worse or evil. I mean, a good pile of serfs were beaten, raped, killed and their wealth/land taken from them, but to the eyes of the public it was justified because they were the bad people.

>>54755280
It's all you deserve FAGGOT

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>>54755320
I'll stoop to your level, so you can understand me.

You're an irredeemable faglord. You need to stop sucking so much royal cock.

>>54752684
>you're still implying that all life is equally valuable.
He's really not.
It can be inferred from what he posted, but all he said was that the BBEG's life isn't necessarily more important than a mook.

>>54751009
I always wanted to include a powerful npc that was a love of some mook that got killed along the way, that hates both the PCS and the BBEG for their disregard for the life of guard #359.

>>54755362
>riggernigger microdick telling anyone else to stop sucking cock

>>54755410
>le fancy green arrow maymay makes me right xd

Also

>implying implications

>>54755431
>

>>54755467
kek, I love you, you beautiful shitposter.

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>>54755476

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>>54755486

>>54738054
Hello, Lucius the Eternal.

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>>54745003
Superior comedic taste, anon.
I hear you on the soldier part as well.
>But nope killingisbadlol, a "hero" would never kill monsters to save people, that's evil stuff- like what soldiers do!
I pity you for your terrible experience. True, most soldiers wouldn't want to be called heroes. But that's the point.

>>54752229
If people get tho choose between having their child killed or having some random stranger they have no ties to at all killed, I'm sure most will let the random stranger die.
Ant that's what matters imo. If you have a value system you don't follow, it's worthless. It's not what you really believe in. If it was you'd act that out.
Somewhat related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCrU94U997s
Now, sure. Speaking strictly logical there is no reason to value one life over another. And strictly logical speaking there is no reason to live on. But humans are not strictly logical . And that's good. Sometimes. And sometimes not.
Also, all that is ignoring that sometimes more lives depend on a single life. So that life is worth more than another life that has nothing depending on it.

You are in a room with your mother and a stranger. Another person walks in, gives you a gun and tells you to shoot two people. The remaining two will go free.
Who do you shoot and how did you chose these persons?

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>>54760801
Fuck off philosophy-fag, take your bullshit scenarios and cram 'em up your ass with your useless degree.

>>54761059
Joke's on you. I study CompSci.

>>54745179
I'm pretty sure that was something his sister said to him, kind of like the whole, "Goblins are born when people fail at something" line.

>>54736556
I dunno. Most people didn't really have problems with Supes' killing joke as much as they did him taking over the planet by threat of heat visioning your brains to ash.

>>54743911
A thousand year era of peace and prosperity sounds pretty good.

>>54746160

Tell me what did the big bad marxist do to you?

>>54736449
mfw I am the bad motherfucker who fucks with the bad motherfuckers

>>54744098
That seems like something he would do.

>>54743911
But international communism is even more attached to the "Greater good" you speak of

>>54760801
>You are in a room with your mother and a stranger. Another person walks in, gives you a gun and tells you to shoot two people. The remaining two will go free.
Who do you shoot and how did you chose these persons?
I would take my mom and walk away. Clean the gun and dispose of it somewhere on the way. I'm not going to start killing people just because some guy gave me a gun and told me to do so. Would have reported him to police too, but the whole situation is too absurd and would sound shady as fuck to authorities, and I don't want no trouble.

>>54762672
Ah shit. Forgot a detail in that scenario. Well. That's my fault for rushing out a post I guess.
Too late to retcon I guess.

>>54742026
Fake, he's too fat.

>>54742069
> baka baka edgy edgy moe moe aniiiiiimuuuuuu
Please go away.

>>54736556
>The second Superman killed him in Injustice, everbody started treating him like he's Hitler's second coming.
No, everybody was fine with it. Even Batman just shuts up and walks away.

It's when Superman decides to become Hitler's second coming in truth that people start to treat him like it. You know, allying with villains, killing superheroes, trying to destroy Metropolis AGAIN.

>>54760801
mfw kill all four people in room

>>54739032
They did it back in Golden Age. In the same issue Joker's gangsters took his executed body and... somehow resurrected him. He then spent the issue trolling Batman by doing technically legal pranks and nobody could do anything, because he already served his sentence of execution.

>>54739236
Now, THAT is a mystery.

>>54760801
>Who do you shoot
The person who tells me that I have to kill someone.

Might as well be him

>>54760801
I don't have to shoot anyone. I'm the one with the gun.

>>54744959
You know what he meant.

>>54760801
I shoot the guy who gave me the gun then waste the rest of the bullets shooting his corpse.

Naturally, I am thus incapable of shooting a second person and thus cannot be forced to kill again. Unless another person with a gun is dumb enough to walk in and give one to me.

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>>54760801
>You are in a room with your mother and a stranger. Another person walks in, gives you a gun and tells you to shoot two people.
Ignoring this obvious solution >>54762672 and assuming that I am compelled in some manner to obey,
And after probably shooting the guy involved in the scenario like >>54763472 said,
my honest answer is pic related.
Figure it out.

>>54736449
>If you kill me, you'll be just like me!

Ok, then I treat this like dishonred and find "a non-lethal option"

>>54736449
>if you kill me, you'll be just like me!
>Two shots in each leg
>one shot in the spine
Cool, you'll get to live out the rest of your life as a cripple. Enjoy your new lease on life.

DM did once pull the "If you kill me, you will be just like me" thing on the party years ago, when we were a bunch of teenagers who thought it was an actual conundrum. Unfortunately, he forgot that both me and the Bard were in this to find the immortality relic that had started the whole goose-chase, we didn't give a damn about whether Villain von BadGuy the Third was dead or not. Bard shot him and then we used the device to nab another eighty years of life each off his corpse.

It was supposedly powered by the slaughter of people and used all the years they'd otherwise had to live, or something, which suggests he'd managed to use it a good few times if he had 160 years left in him. We wound up executing brainwashed mooks and using their lifespans to boost up great thinkers and managers to run the country. Changes the dilemma a bit when you can pretty much allocate life to whoever you want, like that shitty movie where time was currency.

>>54763721

I keep meaning to play that game all the way through, full stealth no kills, but all the murdering toys it gives you are both really fun and the combat kinda cool. I tend to fall off the wagon about five seconds after finding a bunch of whale oil, a grenade and a pack of guards.

>>54763472
Then you value his life less than the others.

>>54763439
Well, I guess that's one way of demonstrating the view that all these lives are equally valuable.

>>54763552
Yes, that option is available due to an oversight from me. The room was meant to be locked and only when there are two people left those two would be allowed to leave. But I botched that, so I guess you get to go.

>>54763613
You clearly value the life of that guy less than the others.
>dumb enough
He might have been forced to do that.

>>54763697
Your honest answer is plot armor? Or is it killing your mom, and then your dad, so you are an orphan?

>>54763800
>I keep meaning to play that game all the way through, full stealth no kills, but all the murdering toys it gives you are both really fun and the combat kinda cool. I tend to fall off the wagon about five seconds after finding a bunch of whale oil, a grenade and a pack of guards

Best ending is hardest ending.

Not because it's actually hard to do (the sight power that lets you see through walls, see lines of sight AND see sound makes it trivial to avoid being spotted), but because the easy way out is fun.

And that's the way it should be. The only thing stopping you from making a dude shoot himself in the back of his head is you.

>>54763800
I just finished the second game like this (I think I have will power to avoid killing), it really was hard, but second is even better for no kill run as you can even to take downs while in combat, not only stealth....

Also...One of my d&d campaigns go with the idea of not killing anyone - made players think and get creative, so I love it.

>>54763859
Well for me it was because my laptop would melt if I was to go into head on combat....it's not too powerful...

>>54763859
Yeah. I tend to love stealth games for about two days until I get tired of concentrating and being absurdly careful where I take people down. I only do challenge runs when the challenge is required to get the best possible ending, because I'm dedicated when it comes down to preserving the happiness of my pixels.

I watched a youtube series of some chap completing the entirety of Fallout New Vegas on one health bar and no healing or rad removal. Even when he was forced to heal by game mechanics he kept track of what health he would otherwise have been on and would have killed himself had it gone below there. He fucking made it as well, right through Lonesome Road and Dead Money. Sometimes it amazes me quite how many restrictions people enjoy putting on themselves.

II think I'll crack Dishonoured back open when I'm done with all the filing I have to do today, see if I can actually complete it this time. I think I got worn out somewhere around the masked ball.

>>54763877

Yeah, it always bugged me that you could only takedown stealthily with sleep darts, although I Blinked through most of the levels on rafters and rooftops anyway.

>>54763899

I have a friend who was weirdly reluctant to replace his laptop. He had some special cooling mat, an extra fan, whole bunch of other stuff attached to it to the point it was basically in intensive care and/or about two parts away from the whole Ship of Theseus thing, but he kept it until it literally melted despite swearing at the thing constantly. If it was sentient it would have needed a Right to Die court case.

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>>54763380
You're probably better-suited for a different site than this, brother.

>>54736449

well I can't find a picture but

Ratchet: No. If we kill him, we're no better than him. If we kill him, he wins.
First Aid: Yeah except we are better than him and he doesn't win. He doesn't anything. He's dead. That's the point.
— First Aid points out the slight fallacy in this reasoning in More Than Meets the Eye #20.

>>54763842
>Your honest answer is plot armor? Or is it killing your mom, and then your dad, so you are an orphan?
I shoot my mom.
She's already dead, you dummy.

>>54760801
>So that life is worth more than another life that has nothing depending on it.
But that isn't true.

>>54760801

shoot guy who gave me the gun and walk out with everyone because I don't have reason to do otherwise

>>54736449
>Good can't exist without evil
It was either St. Augustine or St. Jerome who disproved this rhetoric in like the 3rd century.

My finger can exist without the paper cut on it. So too can good exist without evil to blight it.

On the other hand, evil cannot exist without good to define it, the same way a finger papercut cannot exist without the finger it was inflicted upon.

>>54742244
It's not wrong for a hero to have a "never kill" credo but it's also not wrong for a hero to kill a villain, especially a repeat offender, ESPECIALLY a repeat offender who has proven to escape from prison every time they're sent there so they can get back out and kill more people like the Joker. If you take your "never kill" credo to an illogical extreme like Batman then you're actually doing more harm than good.

>>54765370
Very well said.
Also, like another anon pointed out, we can, and will, always find new blemishes upon our finger, even if the paper cut is healed.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to heal it.

>>54766347
>If you take your "never kill" credo to an illogical extreme like Batman then you're actually doing more harm than good.
Batman is actually a special case.
A world with a Batman that decides who lives and who dies is arguably worse than a world with the Joker.
At any rate, Batman killing the Joker is Batman killing Batman, and the world needs Batman.

But yeah, almost anyone else killing the Joker would only make sense and the only in-universe reason for it to have not been done already is him never being fully incapacitated in the presence of those willing and capable to do it, while nobody is there to stop them.
If I weren't married, I'd do it, and I have a sort of vow of non-violence myself.
I'd even do it anyway, if there were a 100% certain chance of success.

What I'd like to see is The Punisher versus The Joker.
That'd be an interesting contrast.

>>54737042
Fuuuuuuuuucking this.

It's a fucking comic-book UNIVERSE. You can make as many universes as you want! Just make a bunch of one-off stories with lots of interesting characters that are all marginally related to the main universe and just try to have fun! Like that TV show "Blackfish" or whatever it's called.

(Just found out it's called "Black Mirror" instead)

>>54769171
I would genuinely prefer it if they just ran through universes, changing or killing beloved characters as they went until, after a few years the stories the books were telling ended.
And then they began over again in a different universe.
No need for convoluted explanations for the reboot or retaining characters similar to the last universe, just another universe in the multiverse.
And if the book took your favorite character in a direction you didn't like, or killed your favorite villain, you could just accept it and wait for the next incarnation in the next universe.
I would appreciate it more than comics where we all know nobody stays dead except Ben Parker.

(How obvious is it that I haven't regularly read comics in years?)

>>54742530
>Heroism has to do with why you do things and the net result for the greater good.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.