What's the difference between anti-heroes and anti-villains?

>>54695072
Anti-Hero: Hero with 'villainous' traits. Willing to be underhanded, merciless, that sort of thing. In most cases probably still a 'good' guy but he's no paladin.
Anti-Villain: Villain that has more 'heroic' traits, like a sense of honor or fairness. Still a bad guy though. Probably thinks of himself as a lesser of two evils.

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>>54695072
>What's the difference between anti-heroes and anti-villains?
Raziel is an anti-hero.
Kain is an anti-villain.

>>54695179
So basically Anti-hero=chaotic good and anti -villain=lawful evil?

>>54695400
Not at all.
Chaos and Law are about law and freedom while antiheroes are heroes with unsavory traifs antivillains are villains with good traits.

>>54695400

It involvea more than that. Anti-villians are often tragic figures who think they are doing it for the greater good.

I mean, since we seem to be approximately circling around the actual meanings, another perspective is that an anti-hero is a hero who is an asshole, while an anti-villain is a villain who isn't merely fun to be around, they're actually a genuinely nice person in actual fact.

You might also say that they are people who respectively might seem more at home in the role of the other side but for whom circumstances have caused them to be a hero or villain respectively.

Basically characters who lack the conventional attributes of the role they are playing. An Antihero can be a total misanthrope who hates justice and kicks puppies to death, but but he has to go stop a guy who wants to blow up the world. An Antivillain can be a genuinely nice and upstanding character who only wants to end the terrible war, but that unfortunately means dropping a nuke on the enemy's capital.

The roles they are playing are assigned to them by circumstances, rather than springing up from their character traits.

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Good example of an Anti-Villain?

>>54695072
Wolverine would an anti-hero.
Magneto would be an anti-villain.

>>54695692
>Magneto would be an anti-villain.
Really?
But isn't he a huge asshole who wants to genocide an entire race because muh superior genes?

>>54695732
MAKE WAY FOR THE HOMO SUPERIOR, is really only a sometimes thing.

>>54695662
Lord British.

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>>54695072
Takanuva would be an anti-hero.
Krika would be an anti-villain.

>>54695732
He is, but at the same time the motivations for doing so aren't exactly unreasonable and he has a relatively amiable relationship with Professor X.

I mean, when you consider that Sentinels exist to wipe out mutants and how governments used the mutant registration act to hunt down humans, it's hard to really say that humanity didn't have it coming to an extent.

>>54695072
Anti-hero: the Punisher
Anti-villain: Dr. Doom

>>54695213
Elder God is the true hero, of course.

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An anti-villain is an antagonist that's completely justified in their actions but the protagonist disagrees for some weak and arbitrary reason.

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>>54695917
Would that make Lunge from Monster an anti-villain?

>>54695917
>An anti-villain is an antagonist that's completely justified in their actions but the protagonist disagrees for some weak and arbitrary reason.
So, literally every single person in FFTA other than Marche?

>>54696235
Marche is the villain and the protagonist.

>>54696235
>Marche
>not justified in his actions
>>54696293
>Marche
>villain
Found the escapists.

>>54696322
Found the insane, mass murdering villain

>>54695072
anti hero: bad motives, good deeds
anti villain: good motives, bad deeds

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>>54695072

>>54695072
An anti-hero is someone who does good things the wrong way. An anti-villain is someone who does bad stuff the right way.

Compare, say, the Punisher and Captain Cold.

>>54695662
Yeah, would probably have Yellow Emperor levels of veneration had he not been fighting two Kung Fu Wasteland Jesus'.

>>54696482
>Murdering something that never existed in the first place
Good joke.

>>54695400
Anti-villains can also be sympathized with. Like Mr.Freeze for example: he robs and kills out of vengeance for his wife and to try save her. He'd probably be considered Neutral Evil in terms of alignment but a lot of people still consider him an anti-villain

>>54698106
Because he made it so, how do he know the new world is an illusion rather than reality warping?

>>54698106
>thinking he can talk to something that doesn't exist
>claims not to be insane

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>>54698271
Because the entity that mede that world admitted so

>>54695072
The two are complete opposites:

Anti-heroes are bad guys who are forced to do something good and probably eventually become good in the process. EX. A grizzled mercenary who doesn't care about human life, but slowly learns to care about someone. Then she's killed by someone evil and he goes out to slay them. Then along the way meets more people and slowly opens his heart, yada yada, learns to care about people again, yada yada.

Anti-villains are good guys who are forced to do something bad. Typically experience remorse for their actions or something, but don't see themselves as having any other choice. EX. A good man who rescues cats from trees, goes to church on sunday and always tips the waiter 20%, finds out that his wife, who has a super rare XXX blood type, is dying and needs a transplant. There is virtually no chance of getting a donor, but he's so consumed by his love of his wife that he goes out and hunts for people with this blood type in order to kill one and steal their organs. Even if he has to go to prison, as long as he saves his wife that's all that matters.

>>54697105
This

>>54695917
Mengsk was so good in one and so comically evil in two. Shame

>>54695400

I feel like anti-heroes are "people who really shouldn't be heroes, hell they're practically villains, except the writers are forcing us to view them as heroes". Villains are just same thing but reverse.

>>54701934
Peter Parker is one of the original anti-heroes.

Don't forget, it doesn't just mean some edgy asshole who loves violence, it means anyone who isn't some perfectly heroic person who still tries to be a hero inspite of it.

>>54702085

Peter Parker isn't an anti-hero. The Punisher is an anti-hero. Wolverine is an anti-hero. Spider-Man is a hero, through and through. He's simply Neutral Good instead of Lawful Good.

>>54702085
>Peter Parker is one of the original anti-heroes.
This is 100% incorrect. Peter Parker isn't an anti-hero at all. How could you possibly come to that conclusion?

>>54702118
>>54702148
I came to it with the definition I gave, which is what anti-hero actually means.

Anti-hero just means the person has traits that the stereotypical hero doesn't have, just because modern anti-heroes tend to lack kindness and softness in their approach doesn't mean they're the only brand there is.

Spiderman was written as a break away from the beefy idolized heroes that came before him, the paragons of Superman and Captain America, he was a teenager/young man who had self doubt issues, who could be irresponsible, and sometimes do the wrong thing.

There's more to the idea of anti-hero besides "he's an asshole who does good"

>>54702148
Only time he even came close is Toby McGuire's symbiote suit persona in Spider-Man 3 movie.

>>54702228
>Anti-hero just means the person has traits that the stereotypical hero doesn't have

That's a retarded definition. That's like saying heroes based on hyper intelligence are anti-heroes because that's a rare type of hero than strength or courage.

Your definition literally encompasses everything from "villains" to "unconventional heroes" to "rarely seen heroes". That's not what an anti-hero is. They are specifically called "anti-heroes" because they can't be classified as actual heroes.

>>54702228
Thats becuase he is a teenager that has to struggle to work superpowers into his moral system. He is a hero. The death of uncle ben pretty much cemented in him that you had to be good in order not to lose what is dear to you.

An antihero is someone disagreeable that ends up doing the right thing. Not someone who is inexperienced in doing the right thing.

>>54702242
Reed Richards, Sherlock Holmes, Merlin, all are heroic figure that are intelligent heroes that set the archetypes after them.

Not to mention the powers they hold are very superficial traits.

But then how do you define hero other then them lacking a few traits that are associated with heroics, but still maintaining the vital ones?

>>54702297
Exactly, and by your definition someone like Professor X or Richards would have been an anti-hero, because they possessed "traits that the stereotypical hero doesn't have". All pioneer heroes would have been anti-heroes because they set the stereotype.

>>54702297
Pretty simple: anti-heroes often do unheroic and downright villainous things. Such as murdering people.

A hero being inexperienced or scared, like young Peter Parker, doesn't make them an anti-hero. Even Superman has felt fear and Batman was inexperienced in Zero Year.

>>54702292
Yes, he has struggles with things classical heroes often come easily too.
>>54702328
Again, superficial things, Professor X & Richards are at their characteristics still idealistic people, strong in moral character through and through.

Fuck it, to show this isn't something I'm making up here's the tropes page

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClassicalAntihero

The idea that you have to be grimdark to be a anti-villain is a very recent thing.

>>54702118
Punisher is a hero, not an anti-hero. He just does heroic deeds in a different way that happens to involve killing and avoiding half measures.

>>54702389
Classical Anti-hero guy, nah man, Punisher is a anti-hero.

Even if we ignore the comic book preset of "no killing" as being heroic, which I do cause it is kinda dumb, he still suffers from hard mental issues, he's a terrible people person and is kind of a isolated loaner. Hell, he doesn't kill out of necessity, but a seeming fixation and psychological need to do it.

>>54702439
But at least his pathological need to kill is directed towards deserving targets indicating that he follows at least some moral code. He may be a serial killer but at the end of the day he does objectively make the world a better place, so if outcome overrides intent then he's a hero. Porting him directly to a fantasy world that follows Gygaxian alignment would definitely put him somewhere on the good spectrum even if he does have some screws loose.

>>54702533
Yes, but it's still done out of a deep personal mental flaw, rather then out of righteousness.

I'm not saying he's not a hero, he is (usually at least, some of the edgier authors can make him rather villainous) for the reasons you list. But he still has major flaws unbecoming of a hero, ergo the Anti part of his anti-heroism.

>>54702533

>He may be a serial killer but at the end of the day he does objectively make the world a better place, so if outcome overrides intent then he's a hero

Eh, ish. He takes down a lot of horrible people but he also executes a lot of people who were trying to move past dark parts of their life or were simply in a bad situation. He's also someone who's tried to kill heroes more than once when they were thought to be doing something illegal/wrong.

Han Solo at the beginning of the OT was an anti-hero.

Vader at the end of the OT was an anti-villain.

>>54702228
No. Anti-heroes are heroes who don't conform to the ideals of heroes. They don't do it because it saves someone, because their deeds protect the public, or because it's the right thing to do. They do it because it was in their selfish interests to do so. Take Rorshach and Comedian for examples. Rors is a violent sociopathic vigilante who kills criminals without due process. Comedian is a merc and has done enough crimes that he'd be behind bars if he wasn't working for Uncle Sam.

>>54702716
What about Thomas Covenant?

>>54702533
Nah, Punisher is anti-hero through and through. He joined Cap and Hydra as soon as he got the invite and began hunting to kill Widow. No qualms working alongside Nazis.

>>54695072
Bladerunner is the best example of this.

Deckard is kind of a dick and doesn't really care for human life, but is intent on stopping the dangerous killers at all costs. Furthermore, he has the necessary trait of a good anti-hero- change. He learns value of life and love through Rachael, and ends up being a good guy.

Roy on the other hand rightly feels spited for being created only to be despised and ultimately killed before his time, and will do anything to stop that. Though he goes to unjustified ends, his desire is understandable and, if it were you, would you do any different?

The cool thing about the two is you're left feeling the villain is more sympathetic/just than the hero, to the point where people make compelling cases Roy is the good guy and deckard the villain.

At least that's how I categorize it

>>54696517

Very good and close, but I would alter it slightly.

>anti hero: good motives, bad deeds
>anti villain: good motives, evil deeds

There's also the older definition of anti-hero. That is, a normal or unremarkable person who winds up fighting evil or saving the day due to circumstances. This is despite the fact that the narrative implies that he shouldn't be involved at all, and should stay away from things beyond his station. Not necessarily edgy, just not Superman but still doing Superman's job.

I don't know if there's any equivalent definition for anti-villain. Everyone just seems to use it to mean "tragic villain" or "antagonist who's not hilariously one-dimensional".

>>54695072
Hero: Superman
Anti-hero: The Punisher
Villain: Black Manta
Anti-villain: Doctor Doom

>>54699253
He was perfectly happy tearing the world apart before he had more than a hunch as to whether it was really fake, though. Justifications aren't retroactive.

>>54702389
>Punisher is a hero, not an anti-hero
The Punisher himself admits he's barely better than the men he kills and that in an ideal world he'd be dead along with them. He's not motivated by heroics or morals, he's motivated by revenge and hate.

>>54695213
>LoK reference
I'm not the only one?
I'm not sure I'd call Razzledazzle a hero. He was a dick as a seraphan, a dick as a vampire, and a dick as a wraith. His whole motivation in SR was "Kain killed me. I'm going to murder the shit out of him." and his motivation in SR2 was "Fuck the elder God. Fuck Kain. Fuck Mobeus. Janos no..." at least in 2 and Defiance, he wanted Kain dead for other reasons.

Kain on the other hand is definitely an anti-villain. He selfishly fucked the world so he didn't have to die, but then he tried to fix it without killing himself by using the one loophole that he had, which was his driving goal in 2 and Defiance.

>>54696482
Mewt, go to bed

>>54702780
>No qualms working alongside Nazis
That just makes you a villain.

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I like to think Ozymandias is a pretty good example of an anti-villain.

>>54702389
>punisher
>hero
>literally possessed by a demon

Hahahahahah.

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>>54695213
Kain's murderspree across Blood Omen is pretty impressive.

>>54695072
>Anti-hero
Hero with some villainous leanings
>Anti-villain
Villain with some heroic leanings

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>>54695072
Anti-hero is a non-traditional villain
No such thing as an anti-villain; that'd just be a villain that's not a saturday morning cartoon villain. They're a villain with a purpose, the difference between a good guy and a bad guy is the perspective of the viewer.

>>54703848
But that's entirely wrong!