>Hydras should always be among the most dangerous monsters

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depends on what other enemies exist in the setting

>>54627271
>Do you agree?
no, because hydras may not appear in every fantasy setting, when they do appear they should be scary I'll grant you that. But if we're talking "most dangerous thing in a fantasy setting" That honor should go to Titans. They are meant to be so powerful that literal Gods! can't beat them! At least not on their own.

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>>54627271
Hydra Dominatus

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>>54627271
I wouldn't say always.

>>54627271
It should be top ten.

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>>54627271
yes. yes I do

>>54627271
I have an epic level campaign planned where one of the archipelagos is actually the world serpent slumbering. 12 great heads, one hueg body. he is literally the embodiment of all aspects of nature. In the adventures leading up to the final confrontation, the party has to slay each aspect of nature in its true home as each was broken off the sleeping serpent and corrupted by a powerful entity over millennia.

>>54627304
Thieving squirrels with knives might actually make pretty decent first encounters

>>54627271
I dunno, in Dragon's Dogma they were wimpy little shits that posed no real threat to the player.

I can't mentally get past their heads poofing off their necks from 2-3 arrows to consider them actual threats.

>>54627271
Fantasy monsters should always have enormous variability.

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>>54627271
I do. Hydras are criminally underused in fantasy.

>>54627271
>>54627424
>>54628130
Hydras are one of the most overrated monsters you can use in a fantasy game. They are boring as fuck to fight mostly because everyone and their mother knows what to do with them, but also because it's just chopping heads over and over.

>>54628385
can't you just reinvent the monster like it's done for all others?

>>54628385
Everybody knows how to deal with pretty much any fantasy monster at this point, that doesn't make them any less interesting as long as heroes don't always carry the perfect equipment/abilities to handle them properly.

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>>54628385
So then you make them fun! Their whole concept is regrowth and injuries making them more dangerous, so you change how they express that. Maybe as you cut off heads, the subsequent heads get physically tougher and more powerful? Maybe hydras multi-headed forms are the cause of temporary magic, unleashed in bursts of swarming maws and twisting necks before withering away and falling to the ground, diminished? Maybe hydras don't regrow heads at all, but just progressively tougher and stronger the more heads are severed? There's tons of fun stuff you can do with them.

>>54628385
>>everyone and their mother knows what to do with them
>propose the only thing you shouldn't actually do

what did he mean by this?

>>54628498
Reverse hydra. Every time you cut off a head, it grows a new body.

>>54628385
I don't know about that. If you say, took some of the various MtG hydras and translated them into monsters, you'd wind up with some pretty different and dangerous hydras

>>54627271
>Hydra
>not SS
Quit shilling for more funding Red Skull, we know that Captain America beats you everytime.

>>54628553
>after a while you are fighting a mass of bodies interconnected by a very short neck, unable to move or do shit except rolling around smashing things with it's massive weight

As retarded as it sounds, that might actually work on a humorous campaign.

Hail Hydra.

>>54628629
I imagined each head grew a new body out of it, but your idea is more fun

>>54627271
More or less. There are always ways to make it work, though. It just becomes harder to justify is all.
>>54627327
Oh, fair enough. I read OP as "Hydras [where they exist]...".

>>54627271
>is literally canon that in D&D, Hydra are a Dragons most favorite food to the point where the very emission they Emmit are capable of attracting a dragon and they can be used as alchemical ingredients to act as dragon bait

lolno. Go read some Ecology of the hydra you fucking nolore pleb.

>>54627327
>literal gods can't beat them on their own
>Zeus, a literal God, killed the Titans on his own

Ok, guy.

>>54628534
I think he means that hitting the stump with a torch is either a free action or included in 'chop head.'
Though seriously, if you aren't Herakles himself, surviving the poisonous breath could well be even harder than killing the heads.

>>54628470
>>54628534
At that point it's not really a hydra, is it?

>>54628471
Tell me one situation where an intelligent adventurer doesn't have a blade and a torch.

>>54628498
You are still just chopping off heads, which gets boring really fast.

>>54628805
Well, there's a reason why he's the boss, "guy".

>>54628805
Actually, Zeus and all the Olympians, together with the freed Primordials, defeated the immortal Titans and threw them into Tartarus.

Do you even into Greek mythology?

>>54627271
No, why should there be universally fixed power rankings? No fictional thing has precedence over another fictional thing.

a hydra could feed a lot of people, depending on how the heads regenerate.

>>54628873
>At that point it's not really a hydra, is it?
Do you have a handbook on how fictional creatures should and shouldn't be? I might be misrepresenting dragons in one of my campaigns and I don't want someone from the government knocking on my door to revoke my DMing license.

>>54628928
Wait a moment, I have a question from outside. How and why does a Primordial even fight? I remember Gaia being pissed off after the Titanomachy and even then she didn't fight personally. How is Tartaros imprisoned, being the prison for Uranos' children? Or did you just mean Hecatoncheires and stuff and say Primordials?...
I'm just confused, sorry.

>Cutting off a hydra's head makes it grow more heads.
>Not having it so when you cut off a head, the head grows a new body and attacks you.

Come on guys.

>>54628873
>one situation where an intelligent adventurer doesn't have a blade and a torch
And the ability to wrestle a gigantic beast, the strength to cleanly cut a neck and the skill to quickly burn the cut? Anything that's not Hercules-level of power is unprepared for such a situation

>>54627271
not always, i.e in a seting where there are many hydra subspecies it could be feasible for smaller types to exist, much like there are both big and small snakes

but it does seem fitting to keep one of the OG mythological monsters relevant

>>54627271
Honestly MaRo's shilling of Hydras as Green's "iconic" big creature type (they're not and never will be) has just made me hate the species as a whole.

I remember Hydras were pretty deadly in the Avernum games, mostly because multiple attacks were OP. They weren't any harder to kill than any other monster, but if you let them spend a whole turn in Melee range with any of your characters, you could more or less expect them to be bitten to death.

Granted, there were a lot of monsters that could fuck you up with multi-attacks.

>>54629033
The Hecatoncheires are usually lumped in with the proper Primordials since they preceded the Olympians. Sloppy, but there it is.

>>54629126
So that was it. I want somebody to rewrite the Theogony and bring order to that. Thank you!

>>54629126
>preceded the Titans
fixed

>>54629169
Not at all, the Titans were born first and the Cyclopes and the Hecatoncheires after.

>>54629153
Why should the source be written to accommodate a sloppy modernism? Do not even joke about such a thing.

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>>54627271
What if you fought a really young hydra that was only about as big as a building? Or as big as a toolshed?

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>>54627402
Any updates?

>>54629050
slime-dra?

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>>54629274
The original hydra was only about as big as a toolshed. Cadmus' dragon, too.

>>54629383
More like a sly-dra, because you don't expect it.

>>54629477
What a hyly intelligent pun.

>>54629405
Well shucks buster, now I look the fool

>>54627271
Yes. They should be the ur-apex predator among monsters that still need a physical form to be dangerous, and do not have divine/infernal heredity. Who are you quoting though, OP?

>>54629512
Nah. It just means you have a good sense of the ancient.

>>54629405
If you interpret the painting literally, sure. But Homeric Greeks haven't discovered perspective in their art yet, so everything is man-sized.

>>54628873
Well, we then to just use a light spell, the wizard kept some fire spells on hand for trolls, but enough to stop á mutilated , not so sure.

>>54629611
I'm pretty sure they understood what perspective was, but they wanted detail on the human and wouldn't make a pot big enough for a good scale.

>>54629033
There are multiple generations of Divine beings in Greek mythology.

The Protogenoi (Chaos, Gaia (Earth), Uranus (Sky), Pontus (Sea), Ourea (Mountains), Tartarus (Underworld), Erebus (Darkness), Aether (Light), Nyx (Night) and Hemera (Day)) were all part of the first generation of divinities.

The Titans were the second generation divinities led by Cronus and overthrew Uranus. The Hecatonchires and Cyclopes were part of this generation but were not Titans.

The Gods were the third generation of divinities led by Zeus who overthrew Cronus.

A forth generation of divinities, the Gigantes (Giants), tried to overthrow the Gods but failed.

>>54629699
None of their art at that period reflects it so I'll stand by what I already know and said

>>54629611
His hand goes around its neck. Not a matter of perspective.

>>54629611
You have to provide evidence that the hydra was unusually-sized, not the other way around.

>>54629611
Things too big to fit on pots didn't go on pots, that's all.

>>54629930
>For his second labour Herakles was instructed to slay the Lernaian (Lernaean) Hydra. The beast was nurtured in the marshes of Lerna, from where she would go out onto the flatland to raid flocks and ruin the land. The Hydra was of enormous size, with eight mortal heads, and a ninth one in the middle that was immortal.

>>54629903
>>54629977
I'm not sure you even know what you're trying to argue. When all depictions are anthropocentric, that is a lack of perspective.

>>54629930
That assumes it's in my interest to convince you by spoonfeeding what I already take as granted. Hesiod would be a start. Do what you want.

>>54629886
>None of their art at that period reflects it
You should probably check out the Exekias amphora, c. 530/525 BC. Pretty clear use of perspective as a concept if not as an advanced technique.

>>54629611
Why are weapons at scale then ?

>>54630025
How? It still adheres to the pattern that man-sized figure is the largest object inside the frame. It takes centuries before man starts getting bored of man-sized views.

>>54630070
Because they were fashioned by man, the same cohort the painter belongs to. I'm not quite confident the people responding firmly understand what is being referred to as perspective. Eh. I've had enough. As you were.

>>54630114
If the criteria you're using is that a man-sized figure is the largest object inside the frame, check out the Dionysus Cup, c. 530 BC. Largest object in frame is the ship, by far.

>>54630114
Don't blame others if you want to use a colloquially common word in a strict technical sense without outlining that strict technical sense in advance.

>>54630145
I've surmised you're using scale as a proxy for perspective. I'll not argue.

>>54630017
A snake the size of a toolshed is an enormous snake.

>>54630163
Do you often find yourself examining the world from the perspective of a ship?

>>54630184
You used the perspective to justify a matter of scale. I thought it better to humour you and assume you meant scale.

So let's assume I'm in the wrong, here. How does the early Greek anthropocentric perspective justify your contention that the hydra was actually much bigger than it's comparative size in depictions?

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>>54630202
Is no one going to mention that Heracles knocked off the hydras heads with a club and Iolaos burned the neck stumps with torches?

If the hydra was much bigger than a toolshed I'm pretty sure the fires used to put them out would be categorized as something other than torches. Flaming trees, perhaps.

>>54630368
Iolaus was a puny mortal. He wouldn't have been able to lift a flaming tree of the size you're thinking.

>>54627271
I do not agree. I think trying to make up "rules" like that is a bit stupid because of how arbitrary it is. And you just keep piling on such rules, because if one person gets to make such a rule every one will want to, you are going to end up with all setting being the same mess of a fantasy kitchen sink.

>>54630301
There's already a contradictory account posted prior, you've proven you can make that leap. I'm more interested in extracting my loaves from the oven. Have fun.

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>>54630202
WelI can't speak for the size of the hydra. I will say the Ismenian dragon (pictured here looking kind of puny) is described by Seneca as being taller than pines and oaks, and by Ovid as being large enough to smash trees aside as it advances. So I think the other guy is right at least on the point of art being misleading.

>>54630403
Why do I feel like I'm conversing with a bot through several layers of machine translation? Be a human and have a decent conversation.

If you are battling through a language not your own upon which you don't have a firm grasp, why not accept and admit that rather than letting misunderstanding stack upon misunderstanding until giving up or losing interest?

>>54630387
That's... that's the point, yes.

I thought this was going to be thinly-veiled tarrasque bashing thread but there's no mention of it and you autists are distracted by shallow language games.

What if hydras are to the gods what viruses are to humans?

>>54630468
Yes, that's probably why I was agreeing with them.

>>54630461
You want to be entertained and I want to be entertained, turns out neither of us find the other entertaining. Who would have thunk in a make-believe board

ITT: Two neckbeards expect amusement from one another. Hilarity for everyone else ensues.

>>54630445
There are 300 years and more between that depiction and those accounts. Accounts are known to inflate over time, what makes the anon's art preference theory more probable than "in 300 hundred years they made the monster really big because it's cool"?

>>54630550
The perspectivefag sounds more a hipster douche type with the hints at an art history definition. Spot on about the other guy being a typical neckbeard.

>>54630505
>>54630550
wow, painful samefagging

>>54629033
Primordial's have their own families and loved ones but they're so powerful that they never risk actually fighting each other. They're essentially the MAD scenario of antiquity. Tartarus is both a place and a being, simply being the personification of that dark place people go when they die, as opposed to the Darkness of Night, Nyx, and just plain Darkness, Erebus.

One time Hera tricked Hypnos, son of Nyx and Erebus, into putting Zeus to sleep as part of a challenge against his powers. During this sleep Hera put Heracles into the rage in which he killed his family. When Zeus awoke he was furious and was going to kill Hypnos but the God of Sleep fled to his mother's house in the Underworld. Zeus rode there on the wind but was greeted at the door by The Goddess of the Night herself

Zeus backed the fuck down.

>>54630610
This the part where I'm supposed to post my screencap to defend my online honor, then you respond with shoop or some other contrivance. Shan't do it.

>>54630554
Even accounting for inflation, I doubt the original Greeks had in mind a dragon the size of a largeish dog when discussing the exploits of a great hero.

>>54629611
Those silly Homeric Greeks, when will they get with the times?

>>54627271
If a Hydra's heads keep growing back why does nobody try stabbing it the heart?

>>54630703
To the ancients, a dragon was just a serpent. A snake the size of a large dog with nine heads is still a pretty major thing to defeat with a spear.

>>54630737
Because of all the heads.

In 3.5 a Hydra, and especially a cryohydra, could be jobbed by a single fireball spell if the damage rolled high enough, because the AoE kills all the heads at once, which kills the beast.

Pyrohydras are another matter but there is was a metamagic feat that let casters swap out any damage type for a single damage type chosen when taking the feat, at no spell level increase. Set that to frost damage and you're good to kill any Hydra as soon as you learn fireball.

So how does an hydra works

you cut one head, two more grows

or you cut one head, and one head grows?

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>>54630703
>I doubt the original Greeks had in mind a dragon the size of a largeish dog when discussing the exploits of a great hero

>>54630752
I' talking about the Ismenian dragon. It was just a regular serpent with one head and hence you'd expect it to be pretty big to merit talking about.

>>54628498

Hydras get stronger with every head you chop off, the setting's dragons are hydras with just one head left making them incredibly strong, they still keep scarred stumps around their neck

>>54627271
I don't really get why cutting heads isn't a valid way to deal with an hydra, there has to be a point where there's so many heads the creature can't even move properly and it's own labyrinth of necks is so entangled it strangles itself

But that aside, why would anybody run to cut a monster's head oof isntead of the most obvious stab to the heart that works on pretty much anything that has a heart?

>>54630853
One head and as big as a great dane is still a fucking huge snake and a good story in my book. Maybe you're right, it needs a little polishing... I know! I planted its teeth like seeds and warriors sprung out! You guys are all earthborn dragon warriors, guys! We so much cooler than those dirty Spartans... what is Lacedaemon, decended from Zeus or some shit? Fucking LAME, seen that shit a hundred times.

>>54629903
No no its the greek cautionary tale against masturbation, the moral of the story is fuck men, but ironically so its not gay.

Its a pretty common one, cant understand how you guys missed it.

>>54630906
What if the main trunk just gets bigger to accommodate more necks? What if the 2-for-1 mechanism is just for catching up with the beheadings to hold at nine heads?

As for your second question, the answer is that the heads are the part that you have to deal with before you can reach the heart. Like if a mundane puncher was attacking you while you had a sword, you probably would swipe at his arm/hands before you'd get a clear chance at the heart. If he had eight arms, you might have to plan on cutting off some arms before the heart was unprotected. Or just see >>54630771, who answered the question first and now makes me look stupid and verbose.

>>54627271
Yes, basically. Not THE most dangerous, but close, up there with beholders and dragons.

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>>54630946
Look man, you don't know how small this fucking dragon can get. Look at this shit, it's just a regular snake now, coiled around a really small pillar. Cadmus should really worry more about that huge bird sneaking up behind him.

>>54631033
The poisonous snake had already killed all of his men. It's a big deal.

>>54631033
>regular snake
>longer than a man is tall and poisonous
You mean sort of like a black mamba? The "Kiss of Death" black mamba? You want me to fight it with a spear, in sandals and a skirt?

Yeah you can worry about the bird, I'm going to try to get that fucking snake.

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>>54630703
>I doubt the original Greeks had in mind a dragon the size of a largeish dog when discussing the exploits of a great hero.

Old time people weren't size queens in the way modern people are.

>>54631033
Clearly Cadmus is the most threatening hobo there, and therefore the monster.

>>54631220
inb4 art history anon brings up anthropocentric perspective

>>54627271
I haven't had a hydra, but in one of my games a particularly green-thumbed Witch had a Hyderangea in her garden. They're superficially similar to hydras, appearing as huge, foul-tempered, many-headed serpents that ooze deadly poison, but Hyderangeas are botanical in nature not unlike Treemen and Dryads. Closer inspection reveals what can be mistaken for scales, fangs, spines, and cavernous mouths are actually bark, thorns, and huge brightly colored flower petals. Cutting the heads off of this beast doesn't prompt any kind of regeneration, and if all of them are cut off the body goes dormant, rooting itself and becoming a fat tree not unlike a Baobab. This is the point where most adventurers pack up and leave, a fact the Hyderangea depends on to complete its life cycle since each head is actually the plant's fruit which contains a seed that if left alone will grow into a whole new Hyderangea.

>>54631220
The legend of St George says they needed four ox-carts to haul the dragon out of the city after George killed it. My conservative estimate says one ox-cart would suffice for a dog.

>>54631307
The account you're quoting was compiled in 1275, and veneration of St. G goes back to the 7th Century at least.

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Hydra's are not inherently dangerous, they just need the right training and can be loving family pets!

>>54631307
A monster-slayer would never lay out a monster at full length for maximum viewing and bragging rights, no never.

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>>54631307
I'm no scholar but doesn't it say it was taken out on four ox-carts, rather than it required it?
He could have chopped it up.

>>54631466
I think if you tried to lay out a dead dog on four ox-carts it would look more pathetic than anything.

>>54629085
This is ultra retarded since wurms exist and all the good hydra tribal is multicolor/5color.

>>54631532
Go to a small town without internet or television and put an 8-foot snake out in the square. See if anyone looks.

>>54631528
Might make sense, considering the villagers were supposedly terrified of it. Also fits the "pieces strewn to 4 corners" business that serves as comfort that it won't just return or regenerate or something..

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>>54627271
"Always"? I dunno about that. If you're going to call on an existing well-known creature, one known from prehistory and antiquity even, you should probably make use of it one way or another. Off the top of my head some ways make use of it include giving it an important place, making it a joke for humour, or to do something very strange to demarcate and set an accessible precedent for the strangeness and unpredictability of your setting.

In a word, I guess my answer is no. But hydras can definitely work as one of the most dangerous monsters in a setting, it's just the absoluteness and 2-dimensionality of OP's statement I disagree with.

Can hydras be used as an infinite food source?

>>54631843
If you can eat poison and wrangle a hydra more easily than just hunting a normal animal, sure.

>>54627271
I'm so damn excited for the Hydra in TWWH2.

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They sure can be

>>54631864
Well, anyone can eat poison. The question is if you can draw meaningful nourishment from poison.

>>54627271
I've been playing tabletop games since the 90's, still haven't ever had a hydra encounter.

>>54631929
And also, you know, not die from ingesting said poison

>>54631986
If you die from ingestion, the nourishment wasn't very meaningful.

>>54630906
Because at some point before the number of heads becomes unsustainable, you lose the battle of odds and a head gets you. That, or it just becomes even more of a coiled mass of snake heads on one body.

>>54627304
Considering that OP asked, "Do you agree?," the other enemies that exist in the setting are up to you for the sake of this hypothetical question.

>>54627271
We know it's you, Alpharius.

>>54631864
Is hydra meat poisonous?
What kind of poison?
Can it be removed by cooking or salting or something?
Surely risking the capture of a single hydra would be worth literal infinite food.
Famines would be a thing of the past. The whole population of farmers could be used to produce something else or become soldiers to conquer the world

>>54627271
Just to be clear, people in this thread do know that the legend of the hydra most probably comes from snake breeding balls, right? That shit would have made a great story and real life-adventure in prehistory. I totally believe that a decent dude from those times would have a hard time understanding what he was seeing.

>>54632518
It was considered the most poisonous creature in the Hellenic world, a unique poison that was not much studied. Heracles dipped his arrows in the Hydra's blood and they became feared among all arrows.

The Hydra was so poisonous that Heracles, pretty much the toughest man in Greece) had to hold his breath from a great distance while fighting it in order to survive, and in some versions Iolaos dies after singing the necks to save Heracles.

The Hydra is so poisonous that when one day Heracles shoots a centaur from across a river with a Hydra-poisoned arrow after the centaur tries to kidnap his wife for rape, the centaur gets his revenge by whispering her that his blood is magic and that if Heracles ever stops loving her she should just paint a tunic with the centaur's blood and Heracles will love her again. So like a prudent girl she saves some centaur blood, and eventually when she gets insecure and uses it, it leads to Heracles' death because the centaur's blood was actually an had an extremely small portion of the Hydra's blood mixed in it from being shot with the arrow!

So basically, in Hellenic terms, the worst poison on earth was so poisonous that an extreme dilution of the poison years after the fact painted onto the OUTSIDE of a tunic was enough to make the toughest man on earth choose to be burned alive rather than suffer it.

>>54632697
>singeing
fixed

>>54631920
>Progenitus gets a bad card only used for its manacost/colors
>Kamigawa's top hydra god gets a terrible card too
Someone at Wizard's hates big hydras.

>>54632774
WtC's creature design has always been conservative when it comes to set-piece huge creatures, and conservative huge theme creatures don't often make for top cards.

>>54632518
Are we assuming the hydra is magical, so regrowing heads conjures additional biomass rather than using its body's existing mass? And if magic can do that, could a magician conjure food directly rather than forcing a dangerous monster to do it for them?

>>54632810
The supernatural effects are divine in nature and might not be something that human magic can duplicate.

>>54632015
At least you die replete.

I really, really dislike the idea of some ragtag heroes with swords, bows and spears actually slaying a monster the size of a building. Magic is a borderline case and shouldn't be the go-to solution either, for storytelling reasons.

Big monsters should be slain either by other big things or by crafty traps and enormous collaborative efforts.

>>54632884
How do you feel about magnificent heroes with god-like weaponry killing such large monsters with supreme effort and heroism? I'm wondering how important the "ragtag" descriptor is to your position.

>>54627271
In our last session, we killed a hydra essentially through Vicious Mockery alone. Our DM.... doesn't take them too seriously.

>>54630882
>There can be only one head
So...Hydralander?

>>54633119
So if cutting off a hydra head regenerated two heads, then if the last head is half-cut through, does that regenerate one head?

>>54632928
I think such heroes are more suited as a mythical backdrop, rather than a role to be performed and a story to be played - if they exist at all in the setting, that is. At least I don't think normal play can do them justice.

Hydras are the 2nd or 3rd most powerful creature in the Monster Island rulebook for Runequest/Mythras. I wish I had the pdf on this computer so I could post a screencap.

>>54633236
Of course. Setting and system must work together.

>>54628498
>surprise your players with the true hydra, wherein each head also grows a new body

A hydra is basically just like fighting 8 snakes at once

>>54633439
And 1 more immortal snake that won't die.

>>54633727
And keeps bringing the other snakes back to life, too.

>>54633757
And all 9 of these snakes are so preternaturally poisonous that merely breathing the air in their general area will kill a demigod.

>>54633182
>So if cutting off a hydra head regenerated two heads, then if the last head is half-cut through, does that regenerate one head?
Only if the bleeding stops before it dies.

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No, I believe a giant scorpion should always be the most dangerous monsters in a fantasy setting.

>>54634829
I am Orion and I do not approve this message.

>>54630906
At that point it splits apart and you have dozens of hydras with two or three heads each.

>>54630906
You've never seen a lively snake move in person, have you?

>>54629030
>DMing license
>he doesn't live in state with constitutional GMing

>>54631439
>many heads
>1 muzzle
I feel like this defeats the point of slapping one on.

>>54638276
It's probably for the immortal head, which might be a much bigger problem then the others depending on lore.

>>54627327
I would argue that Titans, like gods, should be treated as a force of nature rather than a monster.

>>54628812
>I think he means that hitting the stump with a torch is either a free action or included in 'chop head.'
Well, that's just fucking stupid.

>>54638276
That particular head might be the only one that gets snappy with the owner.

>>54628004
But even 15 of them is enough to finish an eldritch horror.
It's too dangerous to throw this at the first level party

>>54638276
By consulate law classified beasts of "risk" require a muzzle when out side a secure enclosure.
A muzzle.
As in at lest one.

>>54638775
No Squirrel Girl jokes, please.

>>54631220
The idea that dragons used to be short is frankly ludicrous, even ignoring the logical issue with why it would be heroic to be a glorified pest control expert.
Fafnir was explicitly massive, nidhogg ate through the world tree, the dragons of vortigern took out walls with their fighting, the dragon of Somerset could wrap round a hill, and Blue Ben had the head the size of an icthyosaurus.
It's time to accept that the monks were either idiots of towing the party line

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>>54634829
>hunted the ancestor of humanity
They never fucking stop, do they?

>>54627271
I've always loved the idea of sapient hydrae with varying level of intelligence - they have multiple brains working in concert, after all.
But start removing heads and the creature becomes less intelligent, eventually becoming bestial.
For such a creature, regeneration of heads would likely not be as quick or at least would require something else going on - intentional effort rather than being automatic. Or perhaps it would have simpler weaknesses than normal. Of course, intentional damage to create more heads and become more intelligent is always an option...

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>>54627271
yes

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>>54627271
Not really. Orochi would work among the most dangerous beings in a setting, but a normal hydra isn't all that dangerous once you know what to do.

Video games seem to love making them gigantic for some reason, the original was more like a normal constrictor with more heads.

For more dangerous creatures look at proper dragons of various cultures, gods, titans, sun and moon-devouring wolves, etc.

>>54632774
Hey, atleast "protection form everything" is pretty noteworthy text, even if the card itself isn't so great. Don't lump him the the same lub as boring ass o-kagachi

>>54640200
> Party is an hydra.

>>54627402
Jesus fuck my heart

>>54631439
i lost it at the lady smacking one of the heads with a broom

>>54641280
That's already been covered.
The heroic feat for heracles was getting past the heads while not dying horribly of the poison.

It's somewhat more difficult to replicate that challenge in video games, so size is the next logical step if the creator wants it to remain a threat worthy of the name, rather than the middle age monk tier embarrassment monsters.

>>54639131
>I think legends only exist at a specific point in history and never changed

>>54627271
No, but fuck that one down by the Darkroot Garden. All I wanted to do was get to the fucking Artorias DLC, I swear to god.

>>54639131
You really don't understand prehistoric man at all.

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>>54639045
I think that was Magic: the Gathering.

Although I wouldn't say no to a female squirrel tribal commander.

>>54649847
Yeah I caught the squirrel token reference, just wanted to head off any /co/ jokes before they happened.

>>54649905
Ja, better safe than sorry.

>>54631294
underrated

>>54632540
Multi-headed mutant snakes are actually a thing too. I could just as easily imagine two heads becoming more with every retelling of the story.

>>54651009
Somehow I'm not convinced. The hydra is a very specific emblem (look it up, it's fun) that is very chaotic and specific, whereas things with two or three heads/whetever (Cerberus, Leon, Orthrus, Geryon, Chimera, etc.) tend to stay that way, while things with many heads (Scylla, Ladon, the Hecatonchires, the Hydra) tend to stay that way too. The idea is that "many" is a specific image separate from the numericity of "three" or "four" and as such the leap across that boundary is not facilitated by the gradual process of progressive embellishment.

The only situation where I can see your scenario making sense is where there is competition among similar monsters or stories, ie. Scandinavian trolls with their 2, 3, or up to 12 heads. In this case, yes, more is better and numbers may inflate as stories try to gain recognition. But the Hydra doesn't have any multi-headed snakes to compete with, and it's place in the pantheon is assured.

>>54649847
But... squirrels can't fly!

>>54648677
So we're agreed that assuming the monks had the final say on the size of monsters is stupid?

>>54648704
Good think Bronze, Iron, dark and middle age man wasn't prehistoric

>>54627271
Not really, I'm on mind that any monster can be on any difficulty level. A hydra can be the first boss as much as it can be the final one.

>>54653650
I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to give your tokens of a certain type Flying for at least a round.

Then again, I haven't even played this game seriously in over 3 years

>>54628385
The hydra in Mushoku tensei swung it's necks at people when it only had one head left as a final attack. I thought it was a clever way to fuck with people

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>>54653778
>final say
Moving goalposts and strawmanning, all in one? I'm impressed.

>>54639131
>there are examples in mythology of giants taller than the tallest mountains
>so the idea that people might have believed in smaller giants at any point is stupid
You sound this smart right about now.

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>so many people itt infected with the edgy "epic" size meme that has nothing to do with authentic historical epic style
Reminder that Smaug's horde from The Hobbit had more gold in it than has been worked by humankind in the history of our species - almost double the amount of gold ever mined - because
>man we need more it has 2 look EBIC XDDDDD

>>54653650
You can just throw them over, they're not that heavy

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>>54653650
Or you can play March of Souls... spooky.

>>54654401
Look at it this way; When you know such animals as whales or... No, When you have possibly seen a whal... No, when you could possibly have hunted, killed, and eaten a whale (unlikely, but hold on) the idea of "This man fought, naked and barehanded, against a black mamba and won" sounds, well cool, but what else is on TV?

Sure, ask anybody who has ever had to deal with a snake like that, or lost somebody to their poison, and you'll get a much different answer... Posibly. Even they might also yawn or scoff at him for doing something so stupid.
Kinda like the people who will never feel awe for the feathered depictions of dinosaurs because "They don't look scary, they look like big turkeys" and then refuse to listen when told how terrible birds can be, even wild turkeys.

Monsters aren't getting bigger because they have to be "EBIC XDDDD" as you put it, but because they have to go over the general apathy that comes with us, as a species, knowing more about the world we live in. The world was smaller back then and while an Heracles from older times might have seen the Anaconda-sized hydra as a terrifying beast, a modern one (who had as much difficulty killing the damn thing) would only complain that "the damn elephant with psionic powers didn't put up this much of a fight, and THAT was a beast worth fighting!"

>>54627271
Playing ancient greeco-roman 5e game so I certainly agree

>>54654648
Whalers who took down a whale were heroes even in recent modern history; a whaler who took down a whale by himself would be practically a god.

I understand why things are the way they are, and I even forgive it to a degree. But it's sad when people refer to that warped sense of perspective as if it were timeless when engaging in historical analysis of myths.

>Monsters aren't getting bigger because they have to be "EBIC XDDDD" as you put it, but because they have to go over the general apathy that comes with us, as a species, knowing more about the world we live in.
But that's what my crude shorthand was trying to convey; an apathy that requires garish scale to make any emotional dent at all. It doesn't even work, really. I've brought children, teens, twenty-somethings to the Hobbit movie, and none of them were particularly struck by wonder at the size of Smaug's hoard. My children were more awed by the replica sutton hoo belt buckle I have on my desk, the teens were moderately interested and the twenty somethings were 80% polite disinterest and 20% ravenous attention.

They know it's not real; you need to impress them by teaching them the wonder of a small thing, a small world. The Atlantean sword scene from the Basil Poledouris masterpiece is a good example. It's just a fucking sword, after all. But no one failed to understand the importance, the hinted greatness, the significance to the main character in that scene!

I know I sound like a grumpy old geezer in this post; I'm really not, believe me. But people are missing out; our various creative industrial institutions are letting us down. Obviously we all must eat, the more the better; but making more effective use of a person's awe doesn't hurt the bottom line at all. It's a matter of courage in art. It's sad, and it's an opportunity, too.

>>54654648
No man who has hunted, killed, and eaten a whale by himself could ever look down on a man who killed a black mamba with his bare hands. He might challenge the story or test the other's mettle, but they are basically automatically comrades in manliness - even if they hate each other as enemies.

Manliness isn't about being good or bad or even on the same team; it's about being dangerous and useful.

>>54654885
>Whalers who took down a whale were heroes even in recent modern history; a whaler who took down a whale by himself would be practically a god.
And i am sure that if you did that today, and not in front of people who might object to you killing a cetacean, you'd get a standing ovation... For a short while, then move on to the next thing that causes any reaction out of them. Sure, the people who know EXACTLY how difficult was that you just pulled off will keep talking of you for generations to come. But to most people, you'd be just ephimeral headline and a shortlived meme.

Hell, for all we know, Heracles did exist and his task was to kill a group of mating, poisonous snakes. But for him to pass on to history, the snake he slew had to become the size of an anaconda, and as toxic as lead fumes.

>I've brought children, teens, twenty-somethings
Are you a teacher too? I know what you mean. It is hard to try and make a teen see the utility of knowing their way around a desktop computer when they are masters of their smartphones. Then, you see that shine in their eyes when you show them how to create simple animations, how to subvert the use of tools they deemed boring before, how to create their own convenience instead of waiting for their bloated systems to catch on their needs.

It works on many levels.

>I know I sound like a grumpy old geezer in this post
No, i get it. I agree with you. Don't worry

>>54654984
It is not about manliness. It is about the wow factor it causes on people.

>>54655106
To be wowed by a man who has hunted, killed, and eaten a whale highhandedly but fail to be wowed by a similar feat that the man himself would respect is a critical cultural disconnect.

>>54655161
Yeah, that was what i was pointing out.

>>54654284
You're right. I was wrong in saying monks had any say on the matter at all, since their depictions deliberately had them smaller than folklore would dictate due to church doctrine on the subject of evil.
Good catch, dragons would never actually have been thought of as small by the people who spread the legends.

>>54654307
Please read the post it was relying to.

>>54654401
Smaug had a ton of gold and was massive because he was a direct reference to fafnir, a dwarf who turned into a monstrously giant serpent, commonly thought of as a dragon, due to his greed, you stupid cunt.

>>54655161
>critical cultural disconnect
This is an important idea and I agree completely. The lack of impetus to really understand the objects of our esteem is a terrible and strange thing to me.

Why be impressed by something, and then not want to know more about it? All the time now I see poor human beings who seem to feel like they need permission from some outside authority to become impassioned and seek to make something of themselves in some way.

>>54655194
That may have been too harsh. Apologies.

>>54655194
I am willing to bet you have read neither the Volung nor the Poetic Edda. Believe me, the reference has nothing to do with the scale of the hoard.

>>54654885
>Atlantean Sword
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZFtoiBAhM

Holy shit. The emotions flooding over and through me are harrowing.

>>54655235
It's a perfectly acceptable leap for a creature that encapsulated the concept of greed. It would be like a being embodying violence having a stupid amount of skulls around.
Certainly over the top, but the inspiration is pretty obvious.

>>54655294
No one is objecting to a dragon having a hoard. The greed concept is not new for dragons and pointing the reference out is not necessary.

>>54655265
Fuck I love that soundtrack. Heck, a lot of B. Poledouris work is just that excellent.

>>54627271
What are your hydras like? Obviously you are not talking about the classical Hydra as there is only one of those.

>>54655173
Your snide attitude aside, you sound pretty fucking up your own ass for a guy who's wrong.

>>54627271
What? I actually think of hydras as midgame bosses. Not even close to being the worst.

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>>54627304
U fkn wot m8

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>>54658545

>>54658336
What games are you thinking of?

>>54631439
I like the idea of someone raising a hydra as a pet but with an inverse of >>54630882 where Hydras are actually born with one head, but every time they lose a head the two that return are more aggressive. In nature, this happens with basically all Hydra because of predators, they tend to lose their heads until they out-fight their predators. One raised in captivity then is almost docile with one head.

>>54632884
>>54632928
I imagine players taking down big monsters as playing out like any given God of War scene. Most of the shit Kratos does should get him killed but because he has the grit and competance to do it, he doesn't die. My players would need to do the same thing.

>>54628130
I don't get why you'd want your monsters as big as in pic related. Not only are they physically unrealistic, a confrontation with them isn't realistic. I like monsters that are strange and terrifying and plausible. Like you maybe could fight it. That image doesn't evoke heroism, it evokes suicidal derangement.

>>54629050
I was just thinking it'd be cool if the heads were serpents and had the musculature to slither and be a snake in the event of dismemberment.

>>54627304
In other words, your answer is "no" but you wanted to throw in 'depends on the setting' anyways.