>wow why does WOTC hate red so much every card is so

they really should have made it sacrifice itself instead of sacrifice any desert

Redpill me on the pro tour, i haven't watch shit. Is it on youtube or twitch?

I bought a playset of Earthshaker Khenra at a buck each. I guess i got it good.

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>>54610639
VODs on the MTG main twitch channel
twitch tv/magic/videos/all

Pic is the top8 summary

>>54609821

>4 mana plus tap this land plus sac a land: deal2 damage

Wait, this card is good? How?

>>54609821

I guess I have to apologize to the one /tg/ poster who was hyping up Ramunap Ruins so much, saying he was going to put it into Modern Burn, that it was the next Barbarian Ring.

I was wrong, you were right.

>>54610774
I'm guessing red aggro. By the time you got there, the damage have been done and it acts as a last mop up damage. It's pretty much uncounterable.

>>54610803
>>54610774
>people still downplaying utility lands in 2017

>>54610823

Not all Utility lands see play. I don't see anybody playing with the White or Green Utility lands from fuckin' odyssey.

>>54610774
Standard is a shit format where unplayable dreck is considered overpowered. I give it odds this card gets banned for bypassing their garbo three mana counterspells.

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>>54610892
But the garbo 3 mana counterspell is one of the few cards that CAN counter them

>>54610945
Stifle naught my glorious red lands.

>>54610735
>Wizards nerf red below sea level because aggro causes feelbads
>still top8 pro tours
Being a red player is suffering but this kind of revenge makes it worth it.

>>54610869
because those are situational, even a bad utility land is decent if its effect is commonly useful, doing damage is incredibly often useful and even if it is overcosted that bonus 2 4 damage when you have a dead hand wins games. Even the green desert, which is even more shit still sees some play, it's almost free if you don't play many colours.

>>54610774
because it can be put in instead of a land so it doesn't cost you a card, and in mono red it has pretty much 0 set up cost so there's no reason not to run 4. if you use them, great, if you don't use them you probably didn't lose anything. having to sac lands isn't that much of a cost since red aggro is never gonna win that late in the game anyway and it massively reduces the risk of getting flooded. its a good card.

>>54609821
I'll spare you the months of hanging around MtG circles around the internet and just tell you the grand secret.

Those people who complain about [color] or [archetype] being dead because WotC hates it? They suck at the game. They can't evaluate worth a crap and they're all retarded. They can't figure out decks, they have to wait for someone else to figure it out and then they all dogpile it within seconds. For another example, and this one is especially hilarious, there was nonstop whining about how control was dead because Mana Leak was the only decent counter in Standard and aggro was too good due to Goblin Guide, Vengevine, and just Kuldotha Red in general. There was never going to be a playable control deck again according to these people. Naturally, this went on every single day right up until Caw Blade crushed that Pro Tour in...was it France?

So just disregard them. They'll whine and cry about everything until someone else does the work for them.

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>OMG how could wizards think this is ok? This is absolutely unplayable, worst of the cycle goes to red as usual

>>54609821
>>54611866
i would call you guys retarded, but i was there a couple of months ago witnessing countless threads about red being lame and underpowered in AKH and HOU.

/tg/ is as bad as magic as it loves to complain.

>>54611866
Too be fair, hazoret is lame as fuck

>>54610774

It's basically a Barbarian Ring effect for Standard. It's not as good as Barbarian Ring but has an upside of being able to sac other Deserts for the effect instead of being a one time use.

>>54611928
why woudl you call us retards? For the shitposting?

>>54611978
It's the only playable god besides the snek
And snek is worse

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>>54609821
Woah, very strong, I'm sure it is in no way because the whole HOU is bad as they can get, and it will stay popular even after it rotates out of standard.

>>54611978
it is lame, but people weren't saying she was lame, they were saying it was unplayable

>>54612025
Doesn't mean it isn't lame as fuck
All the gids fucking suck on a creative level and hazoret is the most boring of them all

>>54611866

>guy literally loses his game in the semi finals because he couldn't attack due to it's shit ability

card is trash

>>54611866

As good as Hazoret was in the pro tour, the real MvP really goes to Earthshaker Kenra and Glorybringer in the Mono Red decks. Those two cards pretty much allowed free damage in so many games in the PT.

>>54612033
No card rotated out of standard with HOU, this isn't taking the spot of a better card that can't be played anymore.
That said HOU is a very weak set overall, almost BFZ level.

>>54609821
>the set is such a joke that dealing 2 damage by paying 5 and saccing a land is considered strong and "pro-tour crushing"
Whew.

>>54612214

It's way better than BFZ though. When BFZ came out it was pretty much Dragons of Tarkir block constructed. At least HOU stuff is getting played to a good degree.

But otherwise yes it's not a very high power level set, it's just "average ok" for a set. Not bad, but nothing super great either.

>>54612262
>doing something useful on a land that taps for color and comes into play untapped is good
shocker

>>54612287
>Earthshatter khenra
>Abrade
>the uncommon deserts
>Ammit eternal
>Crook in sideboards
That's it, in BFZ we had
>Gideon
>Ob Nixilis
>dual lands
>man lands
>Ulamog
>sideboard removal like Stasis snare
I don't see much of a difference, besides BFZ being a large set.

>>54610774
It basically means your opponent is playing with 18 life. You just have to fight them down to 2 instead of 0 and then the land finishes the job.

>>54612291
Punny

>>54612431
Heaven forbid you draw more deserts like Sunscorched Desert.

>>54609821
So when are people going to start running mass healing and boardwipes?

>>54612426

Of all the BFZ cards you listed some were sporadic one of or two ofs and sideboard relegation on set release and going into the PT. Only Gideon was ever played 4x copies mainboard in decks at the time. BFZ on release was still pretty much DTK block constructed+Origins. Even looking at PT results and deck representation showed an underwhelming card pool representation from BFZ in general.

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>>54610803
That anon knew and you made him kill himself.

>>54611866
>worst of the cycle goes to red as usual
literally everyone said Hazoret was the best of the cycle

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>>54610774
If you dedicate 8 land slots in your mono color deck to this and Sunscorched Desert, you can deal 20 damage with just lands. Even if you only draw 1 of each, it means your spells only have to burn through a paltry 15 life.

>>54613447
you are overstating it, but you are right, hazzy was better received then i remembered.
Just found this, i love checking out spoiler season:
They could have made both gods cost 2cmc, 1R and 1U respectively, and there would literally be no difference. Cranking them up to 4cmc just ensures they're forever unplayable for no reason. That fucking jackal is so bad it hurts anons, and the bird is a shade better.

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>>54609821
i built red sligh back in may.
i told them it just needed a little more reach.
i crushed fnms and top8ed a pptq before HOD was even spoiled.
i tried to warn them.
they didn't listen.

remember when zombies won the pro turn and was utterly useless a week later? same shit is going to happen

>>54614321
aggro decks always do well at the pro tour because the control decks still haven't been figured out

>>54610774
if aggro draws land it is a wasted turn, with this you can make land into damage, making a turn usable, without hurting your curve because 4 is your max really, and 6 if you want earthshaker.

>>54612058
can't blame a card for the users autism

>>54612287
sadly it is mostly kaladesh/Aether revolt constructed... and whatever top 8's, was zombies, now is mono red.

>>54614449
Apparently control decks haven't been figured out for roughly 3 years, since Tarkir.

>>54613447
Rhonas was always considered the best God - and, in a vacuum, he is.

That being said I don't remember anyone saying Hazoret was the worst one, either.

>>54614993
Yeah, from what I remember everyone immediately saw that Bontu and Kefnet were the worst.

>>54614961

It's what happens when the answer suite is bad and the threats were too good. It's only as of recent that there's some playable counters that were added to allow the defensive control style of play to be somewhat viable now.

The meta will adjust and I do not expect Mono R to stay at the absolute top for long.

>>54615062
That's what people keep saying, and I'm still seeing UR Control completely fail to gain any sort of momentum.

>>54615006
Exactly. Kefnet especially is too hard.

Rhonas turns himself on pretty much by himself, all you need is one 2 power creature and three mana to spend.

For Hazoret, the natural gameplan of a Mono-red deck leads to an empty hand, so she's not that hard to turn on either.

>>54612058
> guy literally loses his game when he had lethal because he played too fast

>>54615006
pretty sure the god order was always
black<white<blue<red<green
with most people agreeing green was playable in the most decks, red only playable in aggro and blue only playable in control as a 2 of.

>>54615136

Saito and Wafo-Tapa both ran UR/x control decks to a decent spot in the PT. Right now even before the PT the metagame for Standard was wide open. The only deck that everyone knew was a thing was Zombies.

>>54609821
I lost pretty hard to weird decks last time. Lots of Elder DeepFiend. So should I just hang on to Magma Spray and Sweltering Suns to combat all the aggressive red bandwagoners?

>>54611455
>Caw Blade crushed that Pro Tour in...was it France
Yeah it was PT Paris. And even leading up to it before Batterskull the deck that was crushing the hardest was UB Control. Aggro wasn't even on the radar because the next best deck was Valakut.

I agree with your sentiment about color/archetype whining. It's just retards who want a team to cheer for and are sad when their team isn't doing well. If they were good at the game at all they would embrace all archetypes and colors even if just to understand them to beat them.

counterspells are fine.

extreme value cards like wrath are cancer.
>'oh huhuh looks like i 4-for-1ed you. better luck next time scrub'

>>54615559
>extreme value cards like wrath are cancer
Symmetrical threat destruction that doesn't work against decks with minimal threats is not a cancerous effect.

And they've grown weaker now that threats have evolved to not be hit with wraths (except now with Hour of Devastation).

There is zero good reason to detest wraths aside from personal preference.

>>54611866
>>54611928
>>54614993

The only people that were Hazoret was the worst one were commander players, simply because Hazoret is still by far the shittiest in that format.

>>54615638
its not the wrath, its the X-for-1. wrath is simply an example of generating extreme value for minimal investment.

>>54615330

Yes. Also Act of Treason type effects should be considered, if anything they're criminally underplayed right now in Red. That is oddly enough the one type of card I saw lacking in so many of the red decks in the Pro Tour.

>Gain control of enemy Glorybringer or enemy Hazoret
>Exert their Glorybringer or let their Hazoret die as a result of Legend rule.
>Their Glorybringer is still exerted and does not untap.

Alternatively you can regain control of your own Glorybringer, get the untap out of the treason effect and exert them again.

>>54615559
>>54615714

Maybe you should play some of the wrath protection cards in Green and White then. Even Hour of Devastation's wrath clause can be beaten with Eerie Interlude

>>54615828

Kari-zevs expertise and eldrazi obligator were both in a lot of the mono red lists

>>54615856

Forgive me if they were, I didn't see every match of the streams as I had to pop out now and then. The only time I saw an Eldrazi Obligator it was played as chump blocker. I only know of one Ramunap Red deck that was running 4x copies of Kari Zev's expertise.

>>54615559
this is maybe the stupidest thing I've read on tcg

>>54609821
While true, red taking over has never been a big deal, or a permanent thing. We're gonna see the meta shift to a lot more red hate, and then that will be that.

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>>54610735
>RDW is a thing for the first time since M15
>RDW always does well in the first major tournament in Standard season
>babbys are shocked and appalled because this is their first time seeing RDW

>>54615888

I think 4x expertise isn't a good choice because it's a somewhat situational card, when it's good it's great but sometimes it's sitting mediocre in your hand while you'd rather have another haste creature

It's definitely excellent in glorybringer mirrors though

>>54615937
nobody is appalled or shocked, also wasn't there some kind of aggro/RDW deck that won some big tournaments in origins? i remmeber that 3 mana uncounterable 4 damage spell becoming a big deal.

>>54615942

I think 4x copies or several copies though was the right call though for the metagame of the PT though. Here let me steal your Earthshaker Khenra or Ahn-Crop Crasher and make your shit unable to block as well and I'll hit you twice as hard, oh btw I'll also cast my own Earthshaker Khenra and make something else unable to block as well. It can really screw over the planned combat math of what the opponent would expect, let alone stealing opposing Glorybringers or resetting your own.

>>54615994

Origins and m15 were concurrent right? I think that's what he meant

>>54616038
are you sure? i can't recall, but i feel like they weren't

>>54616038
For a couple months, yes. But Rabblemaster Red had completely changed between M15 and Origins, going from heavy aggro to mostly burn with tokens

>>54615714
>>54615559
What this analysis is missing is that in order for that wrath to be a huge source of card advantage, your creature deck has to be running creatures in to it, and my deck can't be playing creatures to stall. In other words most of the rest of my deck has to be sort of bad.
Let's imagine a metagame where there are 2 viable decks perfectly balanced against eachother, a wrath-based deck that wins with morphling, and vanilla creature stompy. This matchup is 50/50 when the average wrath in a perfectly played game destroys creatures equal to the value of the difference between the creature deck's average creature, and the wrath deck's average non-wrath card.

>>54616038
that's misleading, it wasn't that much time ago origins came out

>>54609821
That doesn't mean red is good, that means after 5 bans everyone else is so shit they lose to the worst red deck wins ever.

>>54610978
If you can make top 8 even after being nerfed into the ground then maybe you actually needed the nerf.

>>54610978
There's never any nerf, it's all in your mind. Also, revenge? Please, you're not the one making the deck nor piloting it.

WotC clearly needs to ban something from this deck

Way too dominant

By their own logic it can't be allowed

>>54617492
Nah, it will balance out just like zombies did. It isn't inherently unfair like Cat Lady or Marvel.

>>54615828
>Their Glorybringer is still exerted and does not untap.
that's not how stealing creatures interacts with exert because the exert wording is 'won't untap during YOUR next untap step'.

>>54617839
they laughed at me when I bought out ALL the Life Goes Ons.

ALL OF THEM

>>54617839
>inherently unfair
>Cat Lady

I disagree. I think that deck was fine

>>54618810
>Adding an infinite combo into what essentially is already a good midrange shell is 100% fine.
/s

>>54616055
they were both in standard at the same time for a few months. mono red performed decently when origins was introduced.

>>54609821
/tg/ consistently fails miserably at evaluating the power level of new cards. That they managed to do it once again should surprise no one.

>>54615714
The investment is structuring your entire deck around making the effect more detrimental for your opponent than for you.

>>54618762
Anon, it doesn't untap during the next untap step, regardless of who controls it.

>>54622098
No you're wrong. It doesn't untap on your untap step, not your opponent's. When it's back under your opponent's control, the Glorybringer can untap as usual.

>>54622098
No, the guy you quoted is right. It says 'your' next untap step, not 'the' next untap step. 'Your' is the person who cast it.

This actually came up a couple of times during the pro tour.
>glorybringer is chilling
>you steal it for 1 turn
>attack and exert
>opponent's next untap step it untaps
Alternatively
>glorybringer exerted
>you steal it for 1 turn and attack without exerting
>opponent's next untap step it doesn't untap

>>54622390
>>54622392
Interesting.
Not sure how to say it, but I thought exert was a mechanic that didn't involve who owned/controlled it.

>>54622483
yeah sometimes magic rules are weird like that.

>>54618762

That would be the case if it was an unexerted Glorybringer that had attacked. The point of playing Treason effects is that almost everytime a Glorybringer enters, the Glorybringer will almost always attack and exert which is when your Act of Treason effects on your turn can be played allowing you to "re exert" the Glorybringer on your side but the original Exert clause still stays when it goes back to your opponent.

However I admit I didn't exactly explain the line of thinking at the time 100% correctly in my post because I didn't mention the state of the Glorybringer at the time but yes the point about the exert clause being specific to the controller at the time is true.

>>54617839
Inherently unfair cards like Reflector Mage?

Face it. One deck had 6 copies in the Top 8 of the Pro Tour. By everything WotC said, that's a dangerousl dominant deck that they need to ban.

Either that, or just go ahead and admit that they don't actually know what the fuck they're doing and stop acting like we just need to trust their inevitable genius.

>>54624318
Well wizards,in their infinite wisdom, knew banning emrakul and smugglers would lead to control lists being dominant. Nothing would drive out new players like a good control list getting anywhere in standard

>>54624318

Reflector Mage did nothing wrong.

FREE REFLECTOR MAGE

>>54624318
RDW is easily shut down, no one was taking it seriously leading up to the pro tour though. UW and Mardu vehicles can slot in three authroity of the consuls, GB constrictor and zombies already a good matchups