Do you think WoTC should get rid of/remove cards from the reserved

reserved list, as it intended, will not last forever.

>>54557984
Did they say it wasn't permanent?

>>54557941
I believe they should

Right now it only really benefits collectors. It's bad for people wanting to get into formats, it's bad for people holding tournaments for those formats, it's bad for card vendors.

The reasons for it existing was to prevent Magic from dying. I believe Magic is far from dying at this point and it serves no real purpose anymore.

>>54557941
They should get rid of it, Magic is a game, and all formats should be available for people who want to enjoy playing them. Magic isn't the fucking stock market, it isn't something people should be investing in. I own a couple thousand dollars of reserve list cards, and would be 100% okay if they lost half their value if it meant that the legacy scene where I live wasn't slowly dying due to people not being able to afford to play.

>>54557941
We have this argument every so often. It boils down to three factors:

1. It would make things cheaper and easier for players.

2. It would ruin things for collectors... the most prominent of which happens to be individual FLGS's, not the rich hobbyist you're thinking of. Those cards are part of the store's investment.

3. It lets WoTC play the field on pricing.

Because WoTC is dependent on vendors to also sponsor events, they'll never screw over collectors, and it let's them hoard a cash cow, so at this point there's no way they'll never get rid of reserved list.

It's a matter of business rather than gaming.

>>54558529

I don't know. If they got rid of the reserve list would it really hurt the stores that badly? I can't imagine too many stores are making their rent on ABUR Duals alone, or other big money cards. Sure, they sell for a tidy sum, but they can't sell that often to make up a significant portion of a store's sales.

>>54557941

Reserved list was a terrible idea from second one and it will never stop being a terrible idea. It should have been abolished ages ago.

Literally only thing it accomplishes is make two formats permanently inaccessible to just about everyone since no one is insane enough to actually pay $500 for a Volcanic Island, then fo that again 39 times for the other lands necessary to play the format and another 4 times for the Workshops and another 4 for the Bazaars.

>>54558692
They don't make their rent on buying and selling power, correct. It's an accounting disaster though.

IF the RL is abolished and the cards are reprinted to hell, the value of the store's inventory is going to fall off a cliff. That's going to be reflected as a significant loss of assets for the store on its ,balance sheet and suddenly the bank is freezing the LGS' credit line and calling in all its loans right NOW because they see a business hemorrhaging cash and the need to recoup whatever principal they can while there's any to recover.

In order for changes for changes to the Reserve List to matter, it would require Wizards to print a meaningful amount of product.

Modern and Standard cards are not on the Reserve List and they fucking refuse to print any of the good ones in any meaningful volume.

Getting a fucking Force of Will or one dual land reprint a year means absolutely nothing and is comparable to getting a card with the caliber of Inquisition reprinted once a year. Once a year we get a card, it does fucking nothing. Kitchen Finks, the first reprinting came out immediately and now it's already up to pre-reprint prices.

So who gives a fuck if the Reserve List exists or not; we're still NOT going to get the cards. It's like my fucking city, the council was voted in on a platform of promising to improve public transportation; eight years later it hasn't fucking happened. Because guess what, the people who voted them in are fucking old rich people who hate busses.

The reserved list was stealth-removed with MTGO, as you can now buy all of a vintage deck for less than a modern or legacy deck.

If you want to play paper vintage, make some proxies and play proxy tournaments. The only reason the reserved list exists is nerds having a difficult time with abstract concepts like "pieces of paper do not gain inherent value based on who printed on them."

Go play proxy vintage and stop buying reserved cards and the list will eventually be abolished.

>>54559579
In fact the value of a piece of paper is in fact decided ultimately by how much others will exchange for it.

>>54558031

>it's bad for card vendors

Is it? I thought they were the main ones in favor it since it protects their investments in old expensive cards

>>54559547

The stores income will soar at the same time though as people rush to buy duals and LED's and wheel of fortunes that are now 1/5 the price

>>54559579
Aren't stores still disallowed from running sanctioned events that have proxies? I forget.

>>54560407
Most of the ones I've talked to would rather actually sell their product instead of holding onto it forever

Plus if they reprinted like Dual Lands they'd get more business and trade-ins and all that

>>54560520
Stores can't run sanctioned events that allow proxys, no one cares what they do if they're not reporting the event

>>54561065
>Most of the ones I've talked to would rather actually sell their product instead of holding onto it forever
Fucking this. My LGS has boxes of Graveborn, old Planechase sets, and FTV sets that never sell because people are spooked away by the price. If they got people to buy it, they would have more space for their other sets and shit they'd want to sell

>>54557941
As many problems as the RL does create, it's existence is likely one of the main reasons that the game has survived as long as it has as it creates stability on the secondary market.

That said, it's also a bitch that we can't get even a functional reprint of Thunder Spirit.

>>54557941

I think they should, because I would get to watch collectorfags cry.

>>54558529
>1. It would make things cheaper and easier for players.
Not really. WotC has said that even without the RL they still wouldn't reprint most of the expensive cards that are currently on it. At best, we could see promo versions of the P9 going as Pro Tour prizes.

>2. It would ruin things for collectors
Well, yeah. It probably would simply by virtue of destabilizing the market and causing people to lose trust in it. In the long run that would likely be bad for the game as whole, however, and not just collectors.

>3. It lets WoTC play the field on pricing.
Incentivising people to not buy into the game to begin with as they won't be able to recuperate any of their investment when they feel like its time to move on.

>>54557941
They should keep it. I don't want poor people playing vintage. You meet really cool people playing vintage and allowing poor people into the format would ruin it

I wish they wouldn't. it's really hard to have something worth collecting right now, shit is super expensive and if people want to play kitchen table magic they already have proxies and Chinese counterfeits.
owning a few years magic cards gives excitement and an incentive for people with deep pockets. the only people complaining about the price is people who don't spend any significant amount of money on the game anyways.

I believe they will reprint it anyway and that bit will not make a huge wave amongst the base of prayers.
wizards will only follow the money and will make the decision that makes financial sense. they will wait for the best payout to reprinting moxes and stuff.

the things in reserve list may drop some in price but the scarcity of A, B, and Unlimited prints will keep them high.

wizards will speak to the lowest denominator again.

I'm not e even salty about it because I don't own any power but I wouldn't get any unless they dropped under $100

it would just kill A lot of the fascination I have for the game.

>>54557941
The players don't want the Reserved List, because it means a lot of shit can't get reprinted that they want.
The big stores don't want the Reserved List, because it means a lot of shit they have doesn't sell because people don't want to pay so damn much for it.
R&D doesn't want the reserved list, because it keeps them from reprinting shit they want to reprint and forces them to tiptoe around other things, while getting blamed for something people before their time promised.
WotC's and/or Hasbro's lawyers are in favor of keeping the Reserved List, and because they have the final say, the Reserved List stays.

>>54560452
For the first month... and then everyone gets their hands on the cards, and buying tapers off to the normal level. What then?

>>54557941
I think a solid middle ground would be to keep the reserve list, but not support them at all. Combine Legacy and Modern to a Legacy 2.0 which is everything besides the reserved list. If they pulled the trigger and dropped Legacy and Vintage from the pro scene, everyone would stop playing it. Keep collectors and players separate.

>>54561808
>Incentivising people to not buy into the game to begin with
What? since when i buy a children card game because i will shell out latear? this is the mentality of the cancer killing magic, (you)

>>54562296
Ok, this is obviously hard for you to understand, so I'll walk you through the process.

As a set is released, some cards are deemed as tournament playable, and others as crap. The tournament playable cards are valued higher on the secondary market and thus sell for more. Stores crack packs to sell those cards as singles. However, as people know that these cards will be reprinted soon anyway and go down in price there's no point in buying them now as you can buy for them for nothing in a month or two anyway. This results in stores not opening sealed product because there's no profit to be made from it. This in turn means that if you want to play the game, the only way to get the cards are by buying sealed products and opening them yourself, hoping to get the cards you want. The game has now effectively become even more expensive to play, and now you won't even be able to sell the cards you don't want to mitigate that cost somewhat. This results in less players and kills the game.

>>54562406
>Impliying that all sealed product must be shit
>Impliying the secondary market actually sustains a game
Yu Gi Oh outsell magic because
A) they ruin the secondary market
B) they reprint all the expensive shit to death in sealed product that actually has good cards
So that means that a game can survive without cards being sold at ridiculous prices, and without the necessity of they maintainign any value, because you comprehend the fact that they inherently have no value and are toys

>>54562490
Yu Gi Oh outsell magic because its main demographic are kids who got into the game due to a very successful cartoon.

>>54562523
That means that collectible valuea and the secondary market are not a nedeed for a healthy game

>>54561808
>Well, yeah. It probably would simply by virtue of destabilizing the market and causing people to lose trust in it.

I hate talking with a pro-reserved list cuck that argues that the reserved list in the magical pin holding all of Magic together. Everything else magic related just orbits the reserved list and if anything were to touch it magic would die over night and game stores would explode.

>>54557941
As soon as people who want the RL gone own 50.01% of WotC stocks the list will go.

>>54562544
>yugioh
>a healthy game
pick 1 and only 1.

I hate Modern, but seems popular enough. Why doesn't MtG just stop supporting Legacy? I feel like the only people who they would lose are people who give 0% back to the company.

>>54563387
>why doesn't mtg just stop supporting Legacy

People would still play it. There would still be a demand

WotC had no legacy on the pro-tour last year and people still had tournaments for it

>>54563387
Because SCG, their biggest customer, has spent a shitload of money on duals, lotuses, moxen, etc. And wants to sell them.
That's the only reason why Vintage and Legacy aren't literally banned from the WPN.

SCG is also the largest proponent for the abolishment of the RL because they're not retarded and understand cards aren't an investment and assets need to be liquid to be truly valuable. At this point who keeps the RL going is super shady because the people who have the most money invested on RL pieces want it gone the most.

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I think they should remove some of the reserved list

I can understand keeping the power 9 etc on there, because whilst I despise collectors, it's also not fair to wipe away thousands of pounds in investment without warning

But who's going to fucking care if they reprint something like pic related?

There's a lot of fun EDH jank on the reserved list which is still a few pounds each, but out of stock pretty much everywhere

>>54561938
>incentive for people with deep pockets
i could not give a fuck about upsetting rich people because more ppl have the same cardboard lol

>>54562099
>What then?
business continues as usual because stores don't make money off selling $500 volcs once per quarter or less, they make money off moving high volumes of standard and modern cards. do you actually have any idea how these shops operate or are you just talking to talk?

>>54567070
We'll go back to the days when people used duals and moxen as coasters for their drinks because the game was all about the game and the expectation was that you could go get more product. Then maybe we'll stop giving a fuck about sleeves, which are a horrible use of plastic.

And when the game becomes affordable, it just might become mainstream.

Could you imagine? If Magic became mainstream? If it was something that could be enjoyed by anybody who wanted it but couldn't because it was so fucking expensive.

>>54561863
This is the most reasonable argument I've ever seen for keeping it.

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Gold packs in MtG when?

>>54562158
If you force them to mix then Legacy players are going to have to put up with us Modern poor people and then they really will quit playing.

>>54561863
As a casual scumbag, it's pretty funny watching Modern players complain about the cost of Legacy and Legacy players complain about the people who play Modern. I still want to see the RL removed, if just to watch the chaos unfold.

>>54567889
I sure hope you use proxies because being a casual who doesn't know how to play with the best cards in the history of the game just makes you a useless casual who sucks at the game.

>>54557941
No. That's stupid. It would erode the trust that they've established and fuck stores and collectors. And for what? So people can get into vintage?

>>54567771
What a tragedy

>>54569198

>hoarding expensive cards is more important than playing the game

please kill yourself

>>54559579
>nerds having a difficult time with abstract concepts like "pieces of paper do not gain inherent value based on who printed on them."
You know that's exactly what paper currency is right? Or are you one of those libertarians who invests in gold?

>>54563274
The meta isn't, but seeing as it's the most popular tcg in the world due to SE Asia, and the non-english americas, I'd say it's a very healthy sales model. Of which Magic's has been faltering lately

>>54567864
This would be nice. Both Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokémon do this. Especially if the cards were deemed "legal" up to a certain level.

The Reserved List is a weak excuse to bat down reprint requests for Duals, removing it would change fuck all. Force of Will was an uncommon, yet they never reprinted it until fucking EM which only drove the price up. Goyf, Snapcaster, Flusterstorm, none of these is Reserved. The problem is WotC's entire mentality. If they wanted to make Legacy healthier and more accessible AND keep their promise, they'd reprint the shit out of non-RL staples and straight up ban the List. You'd only lose the Duals (which are replaceable by Shocks), LED and Mox Diamond.

>>54557941
>The stated purpose of the Reserved List is to preserve collectors' value
At the very least they could remove cards with a secondary market value of less than $10.

For a while, 75% of a set's rares had to be added to the Reserved List. But WotC was aware of this, and so would carefully decide which rares should and should not be reserved. In general, the more useful cards would not be reserved.

This means that a disproportionate number of cards on the Reserved List are there just to fulfill a quota, rather than because they actually have value. Which is ridiculous. Let's at least be honest about what the list is for.

>>54559579
>inherent value
Nothing has inherent value. It's all a question of what people will give you for it.

This includes money--or did you think that exchange rates were the result of some mystical divination process?

>>54569534
>if they wanted to make Legacy healthier
WOTC wants it to die off. They don't care much for modern either and would be happiest if everyone just played standard and maybe commander.

>>54567911
I am a useless casual who is below average at the game. I mostly use jank to play table top games. I do love and respect the game, just don't have the patience to learn the high level gameplay.

and I'm apparently the majority according to MaRo

>>54569391
>hoarding expensive cards is more important than playing the game
It's collectible card game. Why not? For that matter, why is there so much collector hate on /tg/? Is it because you're all poorfag under-21s?

>>54569965
>why is there so much collector hate on /tg/?

Why does every single scalper identify as a "collector"? Collecting isn't hoarding expensive cards to resell later. I collect things, angels, cycles etc, they are not worth a few hundred bucks each, and I don't expect them to be. I just like collecting this stuff, not trying to get rich by it.

>poorfag
Not wanting to spend a few thousand dollars for a single deck to play a game doesn't have anything to do with being poor, it's just being reasonable. Inb4, "paying for cardboard is retarded even if you spend 10$", there is a huge fuckin difference.

>>54557941
The reserved list is working as intended.

People have pointed out before that there are ways to work around the reserved list and print things that would reduce demand for reserved list cards, but that would defeat the spirit of the reserved list, which is to keep demand for those cards up and keep them valuable.

You want proof? Look at Tarmogoyf. It's not on the reserved list but it costs more than all but the most valuable cards on the reserved list. They could easily tank its price if they wanted to and every format where it's legal would be better off for it, but they don't.

WotC has a well-established vested interest in keeping the prices of certain cards astronomical to the detriment of their own game. You can make up conspiracy theories about why this is so but that's the fact of the matter.

>>54570173
This is starting to bite them in the ass though. They try to alienate their current fanbase and appeal to normies as much as possible, but when a normie sees the price of a card, they lose all interest anyway.

>>54570192
Where the reserved list is concerned though, the continuing health of the game is only a secondary concern. The for the man sitting on a pile of lotuses the future business can go fuck itself. He's just trying to hit that maximum possible price and cash out.

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Netdecking has damaged the game and driven up prices on average more than the reserve list. All I want to do is play my janky fun decks but everyone has to play top decks that cost $500+.

>>54570253
>netdecking

You can as well say human nature damaged the game.

what if they announced that in 10 years time or so they will remove the reserved list

this should give invested people plenty of time to try and move what they have without dropping prices through the floor on them right?

>>54558031
>It's bad for people wanting to get into formats
Why? Just don't use those expensive cards. There's plenty viable substitutes.

>>54570367
You can't play vintage, legacy or modern to a lesser extent if you aren't dumping a lot of money for many cards that have no replacement.
We had to wait over 10 years and only now a crucible replacement exists.

>>54570367
>Why? Play with bad cards instead of the good cards! Problem solved.

>>54567771
I don't want normalfags playing it though. I only want their money sustaining it.

>>54567771
>it just might become mainstream.
No.

they can't because the agreement they made can be legally binding and you can bet your ass that all the collectors and big shops would conjure a mega class action in 10 seconds flat, and many of them also are part of the MtG ecosystem, organizing tournaments and distributing cards, so it wouldn't be smart to make them mad.


It was definitely a very bad idea to make the reserved list and, had they been incredibly smart, they could have worded it in a different way that allowed them to reprint reserved cards in limited quantities after 10 years.
Some bad ideas can't be undone.

WotC can keep pushing MtG without ever giving a shit about Vintage. there are already so many formats and they mainly do money by pushing standard.

>>54570875
Are you aware they already altered the reserve list once unilaterally before? A lawsuit would have no leg to stand on.

>>54570435
Yeah, because every good deck runs Black Lotus.

>>54570969
>Are you aware they already altered the reserve list once unilaterally before?
There was a peiod when WotC made clear moves towards abolishing the RL in its entirelty. And then suddenly they stopped, closed a couple of loopholes on it, and refused to talk about why, only ever claiming that their legal department says they aren't allowed to do anything more with the Reserved List and that they aren't allowed to talk about why.

>A lawsuit would have no leg to stand on.
Doesn't matter. Everything points towards WotC/Hasbro having concluded that abolishing the RL would result in lawsuits and that they would cost them more than selling packs with RL cards in them would bring in.

>>54570969
>A lawsuit would have no leg to stand on

do you have a source to back that up?

>>54570975
If this is sarcasm then Black Lotus is probably the worst counter example you could have used. There are serious discussions about whether there ISN'T a deck that Black Lotus fits into, even (debatably) manaless dredge. Every deck that can run Black Lotus does. It's that good. Literally every card in the game is a poor substitute.

>>54557941
Abolishing the reserve list, or removing significant cards from it, would IMO be unfair for collectors or anyone who holds copies of those cards. They were promised that these cards would never be reprinted(and by extension, remain valuable) so doing so would be tantamount to theft.

That being said, it also sucks that the reserved list creates such a huge gate on trying to get into certain formats, as well as optimizing decks in others. I'm an EDH man myself, and would love to get my hands on a Cradle or two without going into debt.

An ambitious idea I had would be for Wizards to offer a flat payout for reserved list cards to be turned in, roughly equal to the market value of each card, and then reprint the reserved list in a sort of "Reserved Masters" sold for like $12-15 a pack. Like I said, pretty risky, but it's the best thing I could think of that wouldn't outright screw one party.

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The only cards that absolutely SHOULD be reprinted are duals. Any attempt at making a dual land work has been shit outside of Painlands and maybe Checklands have been pretty shit.

Actually broken stuff like Power Nine or Tabernacle should be left on the list, that's perfectly fine. Reprinting some stuff like early Legends or cards that aren't worth shit like Minion of Tevesh Szat or Elvish Farmer wouldn't hurt the market too much.

Like if a card's on the list and isn't more than a dollar than what's the problem reprinting it?

i think the reserved list is garbage. i can see why they wont reprint black lotus but some 10 cent rares i dont get

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>>54561938
I have plenty of money in this game and I want nothing more then the list gone so I have people to play legacy with, pic related as some of the cards that were nearby

>>54571784
>reprinting a product required to play the game would hurt scalpers, so that's a bad thing

Noone should care about the feelings of these assholes.

>>54567004
the incentive us to have something nice bro. when it reaches the point if it being too valuable to play then I couldn't care less, but there is something nice about having shit that is rare.
I look at my pimped out EDH and smile not because it has cards worth hundreds but because I traded or opened every card in it and they are rare, and hard to get.

>>54572068
Communism is one hell of a disease.

>>54572133
here is your (you)

>>54558424
>Magic is a game, and all formats should be available for people who want to enjoy playing them.

That goes for many types of games, but will naever happen

>>54572309
think about it from a business perspective, they announce tomorrow they will be printing the top 8 decks of the year of each format for precon prices.
what will this do?
plummet the value of the cards.
flooding the market
turn off people
boost sales monetarily but destroy the game on the long run.
people would stop buying booster packs.

the "lotto" aspect of opening packs is a main driver to buy mtg product.
I'm not talking about the 3 fat fucks in each lgs that buy 3 boxes each. I'm talking about the future generations buying tons of product one at a time.

and the mid of the road guys like me buying one box every other set or so do it because it's fun and it kills time.

many people have said it wotc only makes money by peddling cardboard because it's worth something for people. if you take the worth away wotc dies and magic stops growing and developing.

>>54570170
>Why does every single scalper identify as a "collector"?
I'm not a scalper. I very rarely sell/trade cards.

>Not wanting to spend a few thousand dollars for a single deck to play a game doesn't have anything to do with being poor, it's just being reasonable.
The reserve list has nothing to do with the price of standard and modern. Why don't you just play those formats?

>>54572642
reprinting duel lands at mythic in a masters set is so far from reprinting full decks at procon price, this is one of the most absurd false equivalency claims ive ever seen, no reasonable person wants to have every expensive card printed to death but the master sets have proven that adding a few reprints of expensive cards into the market doesnt destroy the price of them,goyf and bob didnt instantly become valueless cardboard from being printed a few more times

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>>54572642
>plummet the value of the cards.
>flooding the market
>turn off people
How does it feel to be wrong?

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>>54571949
Nice cards.

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>>54558026
Nothing is permanent.

>>54567771
Nigger, I don't use sleeves because I care about the value of my cards. I use sleeves because they make shuffling smooth as butter.

>>54571784
I'm a collector and I don't give a rat's arse about reprints. If Wizard's started printing Lotus in every fucking set at common starting tomorrow, the Beta Lotus I own wouldn't magically combust. It'd be still be a beta lotus. Most collectors also don't have stacks of the same fucking card either, so "devaluing" would barely scratch them. For reference on this look at the first printing base set Charizard from Pokémon: It's complete dogshit and it got reprinted to hell and back, but that did absolutely fuck-all to the collector's value of it.
Leave collectors out of this shitfest. We literally do not care about reprints.

>>54577270
You dummy, Charizard was literally the strongest mon in the early days and it's not cheap at all to get now.

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>releases this
>push format super hard
>adds a couple cards to the format
>let's Timmys/Tommys play jank for cheap
>let's Spikes netdeck

I mean, the format would be only about as good as Modern, maybe a little worse, but the amount of Jank allowed would be worth it.

>>54579107
I'd rather WotC not ruin one of the better formats.

>>54579581
How could they ruin it? You think with how big the card pool is they could kill it?

>>54579605
The moment WotC starts to design cards specifically for a format is usually the same moment that the format becomes boring.

>>54579651
Commander is still fun.

>>54579695
Commander is only not fun when people fill their decks with expensive cards (duals for efficiency and tutors to curve the randomness). Pauper is nice because if you want to be a net decker, you can for cheap.

>>54578052
Charizard was shit in the early days. People didn't play him because he was good, they played him because they were ten years old and thought he was rad as fuck.

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>>54579581
>better formats.
>78% aggro
>1% combo
Super diverse and fun meta

>>54579804
>Commander is not fun if you are good at playing it
I would accept the out of budget argument if EDH were not literally the format where runing chinamen fakes is the most intelligent choice

>>54579695
It's fun despite that, not because of that. And less fun, because everyone plays those stupid made-for-commander OP generals with the same builds always.

>>54572642
If that's the case, then why didn't the game die when they did literally that for several years?

>>54580079
>running chinamen fakes
but that's literally the worst of both worlds

if you decide to pay 200 dollars for a real gaea's cradle you have bought something of value which will most likely increase in value. you don't have 200 dollars right now but eventually you might be able to sell it for 400 dollars.

if you write the words "gaea's cradle" on a basic forest you have avoiding a potentially risky investment and spent practically no money. you have 200 dollars in your pocket which you can spend elsewhere.

if you buy a fake gaea's cradle from china you have real spent money on something that is worthless. you have less money in your pocket and you have no chance of ever recouping the amount that you spent.

>>54580250
You can always trick a shitter into buying it.

>>54567864
They should just reprint them with gold borders. They don't even need to bother with updating the frame or the wording, a gold border is enough

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>>54580250
>if you buy a fake gaea's cradle from china you have real spent money on something that is worthless.
You have spent 2 dollars on a piece of cardboard, what risk is nvolved? that someone is gonna call a judge to deckcheck you over an edh game?
> you have no chance of ever recouping the amount that you spent.
Wow i'm 2 dollars poorer now while i'm playing with a card that some autistic people belives cost 200 dollars. i imagine i could have spent those dollars on a coffe or a burger.

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>>54580554
But anon, the only reason to play magic is as an investment. Buying cards to play the fucking game with? What a pleb.

>>54557941
Just reprint in very small quantities with new art. The originals will still always be valuable no matter what.

>>54580024
where is this image from?

>>54572666
>Why don't you just play those formats?

Spoken like a true ""collector"" fag

>>54581895
>mfw even Star of David games wants the RL gone

I really don't understand why anyone would defend the RL besides:

>I bought a thing so it can never go down in price its not fair!!!!!!!!!

Any arguments on the side of the RL just seem insanely petty

>>54557941
What they need to do is quit playing so much into Legacy and Vintage. Let the rich guys have their antique decks, just quit making it a requirement if you want to be a pro.

>>54583287
Nobody wants to fucking play Standard.

I'm exaggerating, but still.

>>54569660
Modern is comming back to the pro-tour bro.. stop posting shit

>>54557941
100% get rid of it. It's a pay to play game in the competitive environment and that can make it incredibly unfun. Getting rid of the reserved list and pandering a little less to collectors would be very good for the actual game, if not as good for Hasbro stock.

>>54559547
That's the stores idiot mistake for 1. Being so leveraged in cards and 2. Not factoring devaluation of their inventory into their business plan.

Any business that failed from a drop in card values is pretty stupid, let's be real. It's no excuse.

>>54580250
It's not worthless, it's worth 2$. You could even easily make some money reselling proxies because someone doesn't want to spend 2 months waiting for a shipment from china.

Besides, you made that shitty argument in every single mtg thread imaginable, even derailed entire edh thread with your fakes autism. Noone agreed with you, get over it faggot.

>>54557941
They should not get rid of the reserve list. One thing they can do though (especially with the existence of non standard legal sets) is obsolete it. They could make tricolor lands instead of duals (a mountain island swamp for instance) or maybe have it etb and you gain a life or maybe you just have to reveal a card from your library at random.

If they are not functionally identical they can make what is essentially the same damn card that's on the reserve list, and keep investors happy, keep their promises, and most importantly (to them) they do not open themselves up to a possible lawsuit.

>>54585562
i have never posted about this before. and it's not worth 2 dollars. unlike a scarce item like a real cradle. a proxy loses the majority of it's value once you buy it. reselling fake magic cards is also probably a good way to make your lgs angry? not really sure how that would play out.

i'm really just talking about basic economic realities here. if you buy gold it will always be gold. if you buy gold colored plastic jewelry you are just going to end up having a really shitty garage sale in ten years.

>>54580554
just because you say "i don't care that i'm 2 dollars poorer" doesn't mean it's not true. if i told you not to spend a thousand dollars on snake oil you could just as easily say "psh, who cares, it's only a thousand dollars". your disregard for the amount doesn't mean it's not a waste of money.

>>54586065
5/10 here is your (you)

>>54586065
If you care about your 2$ so much, how about buying ports, flusterstorms or something else non reserved list. Should I buy playsets for 800$ and lose at least half of it after inevitable masters set reprint, just because those are not worthless?

>>54586065
Caring about being a 1000$ poorer makes you smart, caring about being a 2$ poorer makes you autistic.

>>54585775
>They could make tricolor lands instead of duals
WotC doesn't want to print any more lands that are strictly better than basics.

>>54557941
Keep the reserved list and ban all the cards on it from competitive play. Shit in everyone's corn flakes at the same time.

>>54557941
If you actually browse the reserved list you'd find plenty of cards that just don't deserve to be there to begin with. If Wizards should be worried about anything it's the cards that are at least playable in Vintage. Legacy shouldn't have to suffer the same problems.

And if Wizard's only fear is the thought that people will abandon Standard/Modern for Legacy, they're fucking retarded. The only restrictive thing is the cost barrier and even then reprints would not help with that enough for it to actually matter. Plus people who enjoy playing formats like Modern or Standard will probably continue playing that. I can't think of any reasonable person who only plays that format because the next tier up is unattainable.

>>54570253
>I am scrub and cant stand losing but I dont want to learn the game enough to stop being a scrub

>>54557941
The reserved list was abolished by based chinamen

>>54587302
Look closely, anon. That guy wasn't complaining that he can't beat netdeckers. He's complaining about what it does to the prices of cards. This is a valid concern when only a small minority of rare cards see play in a format.

I know, you're going to counter with the argument that if you're good enough you can predict where the market will go and actually profit off this scheme to fund your deck. That would be valid without SCG fixing prices.

Ultimately though netdecking is a problem caused by imbalance and ivory tower game design. If most cards were playable, the game would be much more affordable.

>>54583255
>I really don't understand why anyone would defend the RL besides:
>I bought a thing so it can never go down in price its not fair!!!!!!!!!
How about: WotC broke their promise so now I've lost tens of thousands of dollars in value.

>>54589132
The amount of money someone invested in something shouldn't be the primary concern of the company though. Wizards makes zero dollars if someone buys a complete set of Power 9, compared to if someone bought a booster box of the latest set.

>>54589206
>The amount of money someone invested in something shouldn't be the primary concern of the company though.
I disagree. You don't think that the price of a Lotus sends a message to everyone?

>>54589206
It isn't. Keeping their word and retaining their customers' trust is their primary concern.

>>54589305
Trust is overrated... they should piss off the people who dump thousands of dollars into their product every year and cater to whiny poorfags who don't buy near as much.

Some chink card game I played lets you use proxies officially if the card is a rare promotional card with no reprints
Is magic the same?

>>54589473
No, not in sanctioned events.

>>54589473
Unsanctioned events might let you use a set number of proxies. Sanctioned events never do.

My experience is also that that unsanctioned events that allow proxies are less popular than the ones that don't.

>>54589385
People who spend thousands in Magic won't be pissed off because having the RL gone means more cards to move around and get a profit and more people interested, with every modern masters set, the price of every printed card has gone down, and in exchange for losing 5 $ of every card, they sell twice the amount and get them cheaper than before.

The only people that would complain would be fat autistic neckbeards than expend way to much in a children card game.

>>54590227
>People who spend thousands in Magic won't be pissed off
First, I would be. Second, ask any store with older inventory if they're interested in the value of their inventory plummeting.

>with every modern masters set
Those card aren't on a reserve list, it's not a valid comparison.

>The only people that would complain would be fat autistic neckbeards than expend way to much in a children card game.
And stores. But fuck them, right?

>>54583255
>mfw even Star of David games wants the RL gone
Citation?

>>54590366
Do you spend thousands on sealed product?
Probably not.

Also, while LGSs would take a hit, the incresed demand in sealed product and resells of reprints will cover their loses in little time and after some time they will get increased benefits due to more interest in the game thanks to a healthier secondary and primary market.

>>54570975
some cards on the reserved list are just flat out better. a scrubland is better than godless shrine, but far more expensive.

>>54590366
Do you really think an LGS isn't gonna hop on the opportunity to host drafts of a Masters set with RL reprints? Look at the Masters sets themselves - sealed product for MM1, MM2 and EM was bought out in droves, and despite MM3 being deliberately printed in far greater quantities to prevent sealed buyouts stifling draft, it continues finding its way into LGS' three months after release. The golden ticket opportunity of pulling an Underground Sea in draft is too great to resist for casuals and sealed enthusiasts, and even at a $30 price tag for a single draft, that dual can recoup anywhere between 2-12 drafts, depending on what is pulled, to say nothing of other expensive Legacy/Vintage cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Workshop and even non-RL cards like Rishadan Port.

Just start a new eternal format that has the entire reserve list banned.

>>54583121
it's from mtgtop8

>>54590227
>having the RL gone means more cards to move around
If you're ignoring the human factor, sure. WotC suddenly going back on their word would disrupt the market like nothing else, however, and there's really no telling what would happen besides that no products would be moving until the environment settled down.

Business requires structure and order.

If you consider the reserved list, it makes sense as a reward for "loyal" players since the early days

If you consider the reserved list as an arbitrary impediment to entering formats, it really limits the number of events you can have in any given region. If you want to host a legacy or vintage tournament, sure, the local neckbeards might show up. But if you actually cared about playing a given format and having a high volume of games with a statistically significant number of players, you would kill the list.

In fact, regardless of the P9, if you just took dual lands off the reserved list or permabanned dual lands, you would dramatically increase the pool of players

I think in a perfect (non-hasbro) world, you would have all the cardboard you could dream of. of course, net decked strats would exist, but the meta would establish itself more rapidly, similar to hearthstone.

The one reason for the reserved list to exist is to appease neckbeards and card shops, who have overpriced (via undersupplied) cardboard

if you really cared about turning paper sideways, you would flood the market with duals ( or in a digital-client game, just make all cards free) so that the largest number of enthusaists could play the game to their heart's content (which should be the whole point!!) and the die-hard fans could buy skins or some bullshit aesthetic gimick

>>54593247
>which should be the whole point!!
No. The point of any business endevour is to make money.

>>54593247
I think the reserved list is tied to the fact that the game is centered around their business model and they refuse to step out of their hobby store niche and move into the big leagues. It'll never go away because all WotC and Hasbro care about is selling product, not making a good tournament scene.
The game can't ever evolve out of being a hobby until Wizards breaks down and builds a professional scene from the ground up. There's no college you can attend to hone your skills, there's no consistent hub of knowledge new players can use to get into the game, and Judges are all volunteers paid shit for the work they do and despite a Judge network can't keep things consistent to save their lives or the game they love so much.

>>54593505
How are wizards making money with the reserved list?

>>54593666
They aren't.

They're using the Reserve List to ensure they make money elsewhere.

By unofficially killing formats like Legacy/Vintage through the Reserve List, they can ensure that stores and players focus strictly on Standard or bullshit like Commander. Let's be honest, there aren't a lot of Magic players (mostly due to how fucking expensive the game is) so you don't want to cannibalize your player base by stressing out stores by offering too much variety. Magic isn't an arcade machine where each unit is self sustaining; Magic needs a pool of dozens of players to ensure an event fires; if you don't have that minimum number of players, then events don't fire, and that would be the case if there were too many formats being supported by Wizards. It's the stores that are the bottleneck and they're getting fucked already, Wizards is fucking them by not making product cheaper but that doesn't concern them, Wizards wants them to stay alive shouldering all the burden while still buying product and the best equilibrium is push Standard and not scare new players with stories of Mind Sculptor or Black Lotus; so long as a player NEVER sees a Jace or Black Lotus or any signs of Eternal, they can't bitch about how shitty Standard is until they reach that sweet spot (3-5 years) where they quit because they realize Wizards is reprinting the same shit in a 3-5 year cycle.

Wizards doesn't want the game to grow. They don't want a world where Eternal co-exists with Standard; they don't want to put in the work to make Standard good nor do they want to put in the work to maintain both Eternal and Standard. It is more cost efficient for them to only push Standard and now they've realized they could sell garbage Masters product too for a small kick.

>>54593813
I want to add that because of this reality that Wizards and in a small part the stores create, that anytime someone suggests that that people start playing some OTHER format if they hate Standard/Modern/Limited like Pauper, Frontier, Tiny Leaders, or some other bullshit, they don't know how fucking hard nobody cares about their opinion.

Wizards doesn't want people playing unsupported formats, stores don't have the manpower or players to regulate multiple formats. Nobody has any incentive to cannibalize their money-makers to support shit like Pauper because few places can afford to provide such charity. And then you have to consider the players who DO play the "approved" formats; they have no incentive to lose the ability for their formats to fire because some dipshit (often with too much money "invested" into the game) got bored and wants to try new shit when nobody else is tired of the current shit.

The people who push Pauper deserve to be crucified. Pauper is a great and fun format but the running of Pauper (or any outsider format) actively works against the current existing formats, which are barely working as is due to how fucking useless Wizards is with their bankrupt packs.

The community varies in its offerings. Some stores offer just Standard, some Standard and Limited, some Standard and Modern. It doesn't matter what the mix is, anybody suggesting that NEW formats don't fucking realize they want to disrupt the equilibrium of each community when most communities have stores barely trying to keep things going as is.

I think that Black Lotus et similia cards value will barely change if they would be reprint, having a more than 20 years old card with really few copies in existence while also being the most powerful card in the game would make it extremely pricey anyways. Using a reprint will not change the rarity neitehr the power of said card.
I would like to imagine how much a Black Lotus reprint would cost, considering it to be a Masterpiece tier kind of rarity.

Also, WotC doesn't gain anything from reserving cards, they woul rather gain more money by doing some juicy reprints.

>>54593666
By maintaining consumer trust.

>>54594590
>I blame WotC for my stupid idea of investing thousands on cardboard and then realize it's just shit
Thats really how ameriburger logic works?

>>54595363
Not an American, and not the point. Original printings of RL cards most likely wouldn't lose much value even if they were reprinted tomorrow. If WotC got rid of the RL tomorrow, however, no one would ever again be able to trust their word on anything, and WotC knows this.

>>54595445
They backtrack on their promises all the time though. They only don't on the one that most of the engaged playerbase want them to,

>>54595476
>They backtrack on their promises all the time though
They don't. They are, however, very good at making public statements that are just vague enough that people assume they mean whatever they'd want it to mean the most.

>>54591721
It's been tried and failed.

>>54595544
>they don't

See "no more core sets"

>>54595877
The problem with Modern was partly that Wizards underestimated the market, partly that they didn't do what they promised they'd do in as far as reprinting the staples of the format, and partly that their stated goal was unrealistic to begin with.

When the format was created most of the cards that would turn out to be staples of it were cheap as dirt. This lead WotC to believe that if they created a new format that included only those cards they could create a new non-rotating format that would be cheap to play. What they missed was the fact that in creating a format for those cards, they also created a demand for those cards.

No worries right, cause they can just reprint those cards, right? Yeah, no. Most of the cards that would go on to become staples of Modern also turned out to be far too powerful for Standard, and Standard-legal sets are the only outlet WotC has to reprint cards in high enough quantities to actually affect their price. This leaves them with only supplemental products such as Commander decks and Masters sets, both of which are limited in their print runs, and the former of which Wizards wants to target new and casual players with. Having already enfranchised players buying up all copies of a Commander deck just because it includes Tarmogoyf just won't do. But that's not all, because even though there's no RL to restrict what Wizards can and cannot print, they've shown they don't want to disrupt the market too much by devaluing cards deemed too expensive. So the really expensive cards only gets reprinted at mythic rarities where they bring value down slightly short term and then bounce right up again, or even increase them further. Granted, this is also mostly a problem with the mentality of the people who opens Goyfs in their Masters packs, but you can't fight human nature.

Why the states goal of creating a format with no top tier decks was unrealistic should hopefully require no explanation.

>>54596381
That wasn't so much a promise as a statement of "as of further notice, we won't do [thing] anymore."

>>54596420
First off wrong person.

Second off Tarmogoyf is pretty there compromise: It's not rare to prevent price upsets but it is constantly in masters sets to gradually lower the price down.

>>54596420
It's not like Wizards made a uncorrectable mistake, they are not bound to limited print runs and 10$ for masters sets. These cards are not on any reserved lists, so it's not like the """"""""""""collectors""""""""""""" would sue them.

>>54596452
>to gradually lower the price down.
That's not what the reprints are doing though. Before Goyf was first reprinted it went for about $100, then it went down to about $50 as Modern Masters was sold, and shortly thereafter went up to $150. The second time it went down to $100 as the second MM was being sold, and then went up to $200.

Demand increased faster then supply because of the MM reprints. How can that be? Well, a large part about it is that there were a whole bunch of people who had no intention of ever actually playing Modern or at least not with a Goyf deck who opened Goyfs and rather than thinking "sweet, this pays for the draft and then some" instead went "sweet, now getting into Modern looks slightly more viable" and rather than selling or trading it decided to try and get more.

>>54561065
>>54561443
So explain to me why they don't just, you know, sell it at a price people will pay for it? I know it's "worth" more, but that value means nothing if people won't actually pay that value.

>>54596605
That's not how value works. If no one buys a product for a set price, the product isn't worth that price.

The fact that the prices stay the same means that people actually are buying them for that price. It's just not a market with a whole lot of liquidity.

>>54596604
So this would mean that a possible reprint of black lotus would make its price go even higher? It sounds like bullshit.

Also the prices you are listing and the raise for them sounds like bullshit.

>Having more sources and copies of the card would SURELY increase the price for that card!

W-What?

>>54596658
Somewhat true, though bubbles exist specifically because that doesn't hold true 100% of the time, it just takes people a while to realize it sometimes. But, >>54561443 was commenting on a situation (which sounds plausible enough to be a usable premise) of a store which can't afford to have this valuable product not sitting where it can be purchased, but also can't afford for it to just be sitting there instead of product that actually moves.

>>54596658
In this case the price isn't set in stone but it's decided by players.
retarded players that then complain about the hobby being expensive.

>>54596724
It wouldn't because there is no format where you can play more than 1 Black Lotus, and if it was somehow possible the price of Black Lotus is way too high to actually make anyone consider buying more. Only way down.

However the potential reprint of duals on mythic in a masters set could potentially set the price of some of them higher in a long run.

Lotus isn't actually a good example for anything so please stop using it.

>>54596815
Yeah, because the scalpers would care about playsets, right.

Black Lotuses are bought and people are interested in them, the only problem that makes people afraid of buying them is the possibility of scam that's ALWAYS possible.

>>54596724
Because they increase the sources just enough so there is more awareness and demand for the card but not enough to supply people.
You can look up the price history, the numbers don't lie.

>>54560407
If a store buys a card worth $100 for $50 and it sits in a case for seven years they lost $50.

>>54596499
My dream booster:
>Ensnaring Bridge
>Mox Opal
>Shock Lands and Fetches
>Lightning Bolt
>Dark Confidant
>Ravager
>Thoughtseize
>Chord
>Company
>Goyf

>>54558529

I think you're 2nd point is incorrect. When SCG, arguably the biggest FLGS, is in favor of aboloshing the reserve list, so that they can actually sell more cards and generate more revenue. That should apply to most every game store, even if they are heavily invested into reserve list cards. They should limited their exposure to product that is hard to move.

The excuse of destroying an LGS's collection's value just doesn't hold water.

>>54569577
>or did you think that exchange rates were the result of some mystical divination process?

To be completely fair, that's not so far removed from what modern economists do.

>>54597564
>The excuse of destroying an LGS's collection's value just doesn't hold water.
The thought is that those stores will fail, because they invested in something that's worth money and they'll lose some or all of it if the Reserved List is abolished.
It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference if those same stores were the only way to play Sanctioned Magic. Until WotC takes the burden of hosting the game onto their shoulders, things will always stay the way they are.

>>54594590
>consumer trust meme

>>54595445
I'm sorry you've been in a coma the last couple years (I assume) because WotC literally backtracked on almost everything they said last year.

>no one would ever again be able to trust their word on anything

Yeah and then all the LGS's would burn all their 1 dollar underground seas, the moon would collide with Earth, all life as you know it would stop instantaneously and every molecule in your body would explode at the speed of light etc etc

Oh wait Magic has existed healthily for several years now and the RL is pretty much irrelevant to that? Weird...

We've debated this fucking issue too often.

Real talk, how the fuck do we get the Reserve List killed. Bitching on Reddit isn't a solution because they're pretty much full-blown Stockholm Syndrome'd up.

What actions need to be taken in order for this to pass? Do players just need to essentially stop buying product (sealed and singles) and slit the throat of their store owners? Just completely degrade the Magic brand into such uselessness that someone has to pull the "break in case of emergency" lever? Do you think the "market research" will show that people are staging a boycott of unprecedented levels; do you think we even fucking matter compared to the greater community who can't seem to keep their dick/dollars in their pants?

I'm tired of this shit. We just argue and nothing gets done. I understand that nothing will ever get done, but I want to know EXACTLY what that thing is that won't happen that will lead to the Reserve List eating a bullet.

>>54598481
Players need to kill Legacy. Just get rid of Vintage and Modern as well and make a Legacy 2.0 that is every card minus Reserved List cards.

Too bad the format would never survive without a huge push from Wizards. They would have to add the format to a Pro Tour or something for it to take off.

>>54598664
You realize that there's nothing in Modern that isn't in legacy, right? Forcing them into a single format won't make Legacy better, it'll just make even more cards absolutely useless.

>>54598373
>WotC literally backtracked on almost everything they said last year
Yes, and those also weren't promises on their part.

>>54598664
Okay, I'll work with that.

- Lecacy players need to stop playing, talking about, buying cards for, pushing in any manner Legacy
- Non-Legacy players need to create an environment so fucking hostile to Legacy that Legacy players who refuse to do the above have to essentially go into hiding as if they were dogfucking Nazis.

This means that any time some stupid Magic e-celebrity talks about Legacy they are immediately told to fuck right off. The hostility of Legacy has to be so extreme that people can't find a place to play and the only home for their cards would be Cube and/or Commander.

I know this sounds extreme; and I don't mean to sound like some crazed SJW. But elaborate on that.

>>54598745
Maybe only supporting Modern would be better. I just feel that having multiple Eternal formats is hurting the game. Figured by making a "No Reserved Cards" rules, the formats could meet in the middle.

>>54598780
Yes. Most of their statements weren't carved in stone but still backtracking on like 5+ major announcements a company made in a year isn't exactly the epitome of "consumer trust" that apparently is oh so important.

But would you look at that. Magic is still around and the world isn't on fire?

Hmm maybe people (like you) exaggerate removing the RL as an apocalyptic nightmare is a little much.

>>54598888
Consumer trust was exactly why they backtracked on those issues.

They said "hey, we think we will do things this way from now on" and the consumers responded "no, that's fucking retarded, we won't keep buying your game if you do this" so they didn't.

>>54598951
So if they announced that they were changing the RL all .00001% of their consumers that care would say "no i dont like this. muh investment" and they'd step down eh?

File: 185.jpg (49KB, 312x445px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 312x445px

>>54558529
>It would ruin things for collectors
This is false.

Cards from early sets have value regardless of their playability. Pic related is a $120 card simply because it's an alpha rare. It's also not on the reserved list and later printings of the card go for 30 cents. It's value is solely from being from a collectible set.

Would dual lands plummet in price if they were removed from the reserved list? Yes, but the Alpha and Beta printings would still have massive value, way more than most other rares in the set.

>>54598951
>we won't keep buying your game if you do this
Ha.

That's not a tangible threat at all. Not today. We've said it many times over the years but do you know who NEVER says it? Every single fucking person who owns a Magic website, store, or pro. Not a single person of not has quit this shit for how bad it is; because when they did, some fucker was ready to take their audience/customers.

Now here's the exception: Hall of Fame recipient Brian Kibler. He's gone. They even tried to rope him back in with a fucking Bonfire spoiler for this past Modern Masters, which he failed to throw in their fucking face. Fucking Kibler is gone and what did it do? Nothing, because he is one man among easily a hundred premier Magic personalities who won't fucking call bullshit for what it is.

>>54597564
>When SCG, arguably the biggest FLGS, is in favor of aboloshing the reserve list
I don't believe this for a second. SCG would never want the reserved list to go away unless they knew before anyone else and could liquidate their shit before prices dropped (although they seem to have inside information).

If this was ever stated by the company in any official capacity, it had to have been purely a PR move.

>>54598993
No, what would happen is that no one would know when WotC means what they're saying anymore. This is a limited print run they say, but how will I know that they just won't restock it next month? And so on.

>>54599046
Has Kibler written any articles about this? Do you have any links or videos? I'm interested.

>>54599086
>for some reason the RL existing means that everyone trusts WotC on everything they say always

Wow, I take it back!

>>54599046
>We've said it many times over the years
Doomsayers have always existed. The fact that WotC listened this time is nothing short of an indication that these times it wasn't just them and not just empty threats.

>>54599124
You're an idiot.

>>54599054
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16737_Insider_Trading_Should_Wizards_Do_Away_With_The_Reserve_List.html

Dipshit condemns the Reserve List as a whole but qualifies it by saying 405/whatever dogshit cards can come off the Reserve List but refuses to say that the good cards should be allowed to come off.

He says all the fucking things that sound good and nice about duals and moxen getting reprints, but he doesn't actually say he supports the idea, which means they're just grandstanding for the customers. "Oh yeah, it would be great if we could feed everyone"; (proceeds to do nothing about it)

>>54599106
Never mind. It seems I lied. Kibler's not gone at all; he's still active in Magic
http://bmkgaming.com/category/blog/magic/

So to clarify: NOBODY OF NOTE IN THE COMMUNITY HAS CONDEMNED MAGIC OR THE RESERVE LIST

>>54599169
>>54599169
Hey, I'm just reconfirming what you said

Cause apparently nobody doubts WotC at all now?

You actually have to be a retard to think the RL does anything for their trust to most of their playerbase.

I mean if you have RL cards and you are just super petty and you don't want them to go down in price you can just say that. Just don't pretend the RL is the magical ribbon that holds together all of MTG together cause you just sound like a moron.

>>54599264
>Hey, I'm just reconfirming what you said
No, you're pretending to be stupider than you actually are.

>You actually have to be a retard to think the RL does anything for their trust to most of their playerbase.
The RL has nothing to do with consumer trust. WotC keeping their promise does.

>>54599353
>WotC keeping their promise does.

But like I said only a very small fraction of the playerbase even cares about the promise.

So why does it matter to them?

>>54599389
It doesn't matter whether people like or don't like that the promise has been made. If WotC breaks it it sets a precedence that they can go back on their word whenever they wish, which creates uncertainty among the customers.

>>54598481
>What if we flooded Wizard's surveys comment with abolish RL will they pay an attention at least?

>>54599428
>it sets a precedence that they can go back on their word whenever they wish, which creates uncertainty among the customers.

You mean like they are doing right now? Creating uncertainty by going back on what they just said?

>>54599481
How do you not get that there's a huge difference between them saying
>Hey guys, so we had this idea for how we could do Standard rotations in the future
and
>We promise we will never reprint these cards ever again

>>54599520
I don't know? How do you ignore the similarities?

>Hey guys, so we had this idea for how we could do Standard rotations in the future

More like

>Hey guys, so we had 10 ideas for how we can change the game
>hey guys, just kidding about all that


The only difference is you value the RL higher. Do you really think that going back on your announcements so many times in such a short time doesn't create uncertainty?

>>54599596
>The only difference is you value the RL higher
No, the difference is that those weren't promises.

>>54599625
Even if they weren't, they create uncertainty. You can't even argue against that, not that you've tried

>>54599641
Certainly, but the only precedence set by doing so is that WotC will take back unpopular decisions.

>>54599701
I disagree, I believe it says a lot more like:

>Wizards is making a lot of bad decisions
>Wizards doesn't understand what its players want
>etc

But I'm done arguing in circles with you. I get a bit tired of

>it's a pinky-promise so it's super duper important for EVERYONE
>if it's gone it means that EVERYONE will lose trust in WotC
>but don't ask me to connect any of the dots or say anything but those 2 statements

Have fun doomsaying my man

>>54599625
Not him but listen up, it's corporate pigfuckery is what it is. I know that because I'm a corporate shill myself and the language they use is the same pretty dressed up language I use.

What you are saying about promises, not promises, said that, we didn't mean it. That's the sort of bullshit discord you pull on the public to get the retards to defend you and disrupt anything from happening. So you take that whole "it wasn't a promise" bullshit and stow it because all it is doing is disrupting conversation about how there's a goddamn problem; a problem that they're still unwilling to address.

They only gave a goddamn nugget of remorse this time around because that's what you feed a starving mob that's hungry; the philosophy is that you feed them too much and they'll die because they're not used to eating so richly after starving so long. Well that's a load of shit too; because the underlying premise is that giving them a bit keeps them hungry for more; it makes them expect a little and that a little is good enough when they need a lot; it's how we keep people placated instead of actually solving their problems. It's how we sucker the sick with pills and students with scholarships and the hungry with food stamps, and the poor with tax exemptions instead of solving the primary problem by making sure people have enough money.

>>54592994
They've gone back on their word multiple times, removing the RL is not the same, but still not that different, they could remove the RL without angering stores by doing it step by step in a big enough of time.

I take into account the human factor, stores would care about benefits, and they would get them, players about playing, and they would play more and cheaper, and autistic fat neckbeards like you about "muh RL" and would cry to Wizards, just as I said in my initial post.

RL remains because Hasbro lawyers want to play it safe, not because it is imposible to remove.

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>>54559547
... the RL is abolished and the cards are reprinted to hell, the value of the store's inventory is going to fall off a cliff. That's going to be reflected as a significant loss of assets for the store on its ,balance sheet...
If you invested and marry your store with glorified paper,
Maybe you deserve being broken.
try scam the IRS better.

>>54563274
Oh yeah healthy,5 cards banned in standard and changes in the rotation makes MTG the most athletic paper game.

>>54569468
Not that Anon,but...
(You) know the difference between the choices of one civilization and the tantrums from a niche?

>>54557941
Is this the thread where I go to gawk at whiny richfags?

>>54580554
Yes now you are poor,
I hope homeless.

>>54598951
>Consumer trust was exactly why they backtracked on those issues.

Yeah, exactly. That's why they can't backtrack on the reserved list because 99% of the playerbase clearly loves it and wants it to stay!

you played yourself

>>54599086
That's literally what they did with Eternal Masters. You can't quote a hypothetical decision that would undermine the trust for the company, when the company is already doing it on a regular basis.

>>54605186
The EM print run was limited. An actual second printing would have been financially retarded, they just slow rolled the release of about half the boxes. People were also able to figure out that they were doing this long before the second release was even announced.

>>54605248
Yeah, so they lied to their customers about second printing and did the release that way to create more demand.

That means we can trust them a shows how sincere Wizards are. A huge plus!

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Quick question, has anyone here ever played the modern Pokemon TCG? I looked into it, and really made me never want to buy another MtG card again.

>top deck of each season is $100
>every physical product you buy gives you a free online version
>reprints every year of Eternal format staples to keep formats cheap
>prints singles in tins when cards start dominating to keep prices down
>always offers several rare cards per set with full art and new art to keep collectors happy

>>54599262
>http://bmkgaming.com/broken-promises-thoughts-pro-tour-changes/

On the topic of trust...

>>54606690
>every physical product you buy gives you a free online version
This is what should happen.

>>54606690
Sounds amazing, too bad I have no interest in the aesthetic of Pokemon.

>>54602950
But anon,
All money is just glorified paper

>>54607420
>>54607420
I played it, was okay. Feels like Magic Light. Anyone who plays Magic at a competent level will be bored. Shame, because it is one of the fairest company models out there. They have a league online just for theme decks, so they even have a use unlike in Magic.

I don't know about flat out removing the reserved list, but I believe it could be reasonably trimmed without pissing off too many people.

There's plenty of cards that are on there just because they fell within the protected timeframe that no one would give a shit about if they were released.

>>54608065
See
>>54599262

What use is allowing shit cards to be reprinted if you're not willing to reprint and actually print the good shit.

It's like announcing that you found all the secret unreleased albums in Prince's vault except you're doing nothing to release them. Or you're going to trickle them out at a glacial pace to spur sales of his backcatalog.

>>54557941
I think they should just reprint the shit out of current cards. If people want their old cards to be worth money sure whatever but cards that came out 5 years ago have no excuse to cost over 15 dollars.
They fact they reprint them in modern masters at the same rarity is fucking crazy.

>>54608843
This makes me not care. If they printed shit in Modern at a reasonable amount, I would say get ride of the Restricted List. Seeing cards in Modern are still over $100, I don't think Wizards would let duals just cost $10 overnight.

>>54608843
When you buy magic cards you get value from them in 3 different ways
Ownership value
Monetary value
Fun value

If you reprint everything to oblivion then you immediately lose ownership and monetary value. You basically make every set into an un-set where the cards are worthless for the most part because the offer is so much larger than the demand and the only value you get out of these cards is playing with them.

What you're suggesting would devalue Magic cards so badly that a majority of players would eventually come to the conclusion that the fun value alone is not worth it and that they are much better off spending their money elsewhere.

Would you keep buying sealed products if you knew that your cards would get printed over and over again until they became worthless? Would a store have any reason to open products and sell singles?

TCGs can't justify their high price tag if the cards themselves aren't worth a substantial amount of money.

>>54609859
There is a happy medium between "everything is worthless" and "more than a 1000$ for a modern deck".

>>54608843
>I think they should just reprint the shit out of current cards
A sympathetic approach. I can definitely see where you're coming from with this. However, it is important to note that one of the main appeals of Magic seems to be that there are rare cards to collect, and that those cards are valuable in a very monetary sense of the word, and that those cards simply don't suddenly loose value with no warning.

A few years ago, Pauper was all the rage, and everyone was talking about how you could play fun, competitive Magic without putting hundreds or thousands of dollars into a single deck. And then... and then it just sort off died off. People still play Pauper, certainly. I mean, I do, because it's great Magic gameplay, but it's not anywhere near where the craze around the late 00's. early 10's would have you think it'd end up.

So, real talk, a majority of Magic players seem to not be into the hobby simply because it's fun, but because it's also financially sound. Take the last part away, and you'd likely kill the game.

The problem is that if Legacy became cheap no one would play the shitshow that Standard has turned into in recent years, and Standard is what makes Wizards money.

>>54609859
>What is you go oh and Pokemon
>Somehow those games have not died
How does it feel to be so wrong?

>>54557941

I just want my Gaia's Cradle.

>>54610311
Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh survive primarily on being targeted to kids drawn in by their respective tv-shows. Magic doesn't have that, and it's not a good comparison in any way.

>>54610123
I guess, but reaching that happy medium is not in Wizard's best interest, at least regarding older cards since they can profit from them through master sets, From the Vault, Commander, etc...
I guess we could hope that eventually most modern decks would cost about $250 similar to tier 1 standard decks, but I doubt we'll ever go lower because that would require a price drop in packs

>>54610311
This >>54610354
Kids don't care about monetary value, and they find ownership value in simply having their favorite pokemon or a card they saw on TV

>>54610354
What kids watch pokemon and yu gi oh in >current year?

These are old and outdated, the target audience outside of japan is still neckbeards.

>>54610354
You can be a manchild, but that doesn't change the fact that MTG and yu gi oh have target audience of the same age. You don't believe it? See each booster pack, see how the story now is a comic book rip off. See how they want to remove pros and tryhards from FNM. They target is not grown up nerds anymore, but kids that like cat tribal and craw wurm.dek. they have actively said in the social media that the majority of players are kitchen table fags that just buy packs. Is the same people yu gi oh and Pokemon Target, the same demographic. The fact is that yu gi oh outsells MTG because they understand that and make the cards cheaper, while wizards still don't know why people are not playing standard

>>54610656
You say that as if they aren't still on the air.

>>54610718
MTG lacks a way to pull a younger audience into the game
They are making a clear effort to maintain casuals and kids with their new products (planeswalker decks, Gift pack, dinosaur themed block, etc...), but how are kids supposed to think that a 10/10 colossus or a planeswalker is cool and awesome if they don't know about the game yet?

YuGiOh has their TV show, Pokemon has a strong multimedia franchise. Magic has an outdated website, poor marketing and word of mouth.

>The fact is that yu gi oh outsells MTG because they understand that and make the cards cheaper
Yugioh is in a weird place, they have so many rarities that some competitive cards end up costing $60+
Also I'd like a quote on it outselling MTG. I doubt yugioh beat the 117 millions boosters MTG did in 2016

>>54611254
>MTG lacks a way to pull a younger audience into the game
That they are bad at getting to their demographic target does not mean is not is demographic target

>>54610212
Pauper is cool and all, but because commons strictly have less mindblowing effects than other rarities, there's only so much you can do with it. Other formats are way more expensive but they also allow people to use some of their favorite cards that have effects you can't even mimic if you combo 3 or more weaker cards.

>>54611254
>>54611987
A younger audience gets pulled into the game by the older audience (older siblings and such). Wizards, by making the environment so goddamn hostile to established players and not caring about the people who are driven away by ultra-competitiveness or cost of the game, are not ensuring there is an older generation to foster a younger generation. And without paper, MTGO will fail as well because you can't tell me that anybody that MTGO is the gateway Magic "format".

How many "young" people are playing at the PT or attending GPs, it's a depressingly small number of people. You know something is wrong when even teenagers can't be bothered to fucking show up to a local GP and the only people who attend are people who drive in.

>>54586422
>Caring about being a 1000$ poorer makes you smart

if you buy something rare that is worth 1000 dollars you aren't losing money, you are making an investment. this is why rich people buy art. highly sought after collectibles have a more stable value than money itself. a black lotus is going to grow in value over the next ten years while the amount of money it takes to buy it will probably decrease in value.

i don't understand why people fail to understand this.

I think the problem is they have no way of keeping old players happy, so they can't get new, younger players who have different expectations from their card games. Reboot everything and start "Core '19" by doing everything Pokemon does to be successful. Keep prices down and create a modern online counterpart to stay competitive. Don't kill your old player base, but you have to acknowledge the younger generation too.

>>54616270
I think making cards cheaper makes old players (the ones that matter) happy. Let me be clear, it makes them "happy" in the sense that the environment is not infested with a high concentration of miserly fucks who need to creep every dollar of value from people who are just there to game.

That being said, I would be interested in seeing what would happen if the majority of old players collectively decided to either stop, or make a highly conscious effort to not be obnoxious fucks. I mean maybe a year of pre-releases where every old player is just someone who very methodically becomes a happy Magic robot that makes every effort to make their younger opponent feel welcome. Have literally everyone put down the fucking rules lawyer hat and let a ton of shit and wrong shit slide for the purposes of creating a happy environment where old players pretend to learn the game alongside the people actually learning.

I feel old for even suggesting this. Players like me need to fuck off if this game is to survive. I can't look at new cards or Wizards' announcements without getting a fucking rage-boner for their incessant lack of effort, innovation, or fucks given.

>>54572068
How is it even possible to "scalp" rare Magic cards? Wouldn't scalping just mean people who trade in powerful, rare cards? What's intrinsically wrong with that?:

>>54577270
>or anyone who holds copies of those cards.

Thank you for the insight, but my point still stands.

>>54567771
>can't play legacy/vintage
>literally can't play Magic

you fucking idiot

>>54570253
Coffers is like $15 bucks, get a fucking job dude

>>54616575
>inb4 fifteen bucks bucks

I'm getting my last minute shitposting in okay

>>54615482
>Someone still thinks the majority of players and sales are from competitive players
Mark rosewater and Co has stated that casualfag>competitive shitters. Why do you don't understand that? For each competitive players there are a lot more fuckers who will buy ixalan just because is a dinosaur pirate set. They don't care about your gps or world championship, they just play shit edh decks or buy intro decks. Wizards don't care about pros and they have already let it clear

>>54616575
Not him but anybody with any job at any level of income has to admit that a fucking $500/deck card game is outrageous.

Telling people to buy a deck one card at a time over $30/week purchases of singles seems completely and absolutely retarded.

Don't get me wrong, I can afford to play this ridiculous game and did so for several years. Now, I'm tired of giving money to this company.

>>54580024
This doesn't really take into consideration subdivisions of the decks because Delver is more like tempo or hedging on midrange depending on the color combo. Kiln Fiend is a combo deck, so the percentage is automatically more than that, Affinity has a combo win button with Fling, and a bunch of Tron variants might as well be classified as combo. UB Flicker is midrange with a combo built in, Hexproof is another creature-based combo deck, burn isn't fucking Aggro, I don't see Gond despite the fact that it's been played at least once on average in every Challenge recently, etc.

This list generalizes too much and I'd argue it's flat wrong in a lot of areas. Three categories that are inaccurate doesn't say a thing and I have an autistic spreadsheet to prove it.

/seething

>>54616621
So is that what we're supposed to say to everyone who wants to achieve the best in this game? "Wizards doesn't care about you".

I'd be fine like that. Competitive Magic can become this cancerous elitist group like the Smash community that Nintendo openly detests. Wizards can announce in clear language they're dumping the PT and GP circuit to let CFB and SCG take over and focusing on maintaining FNM. Competitive Magic becomes an enthusiast player-driven activity and Wizards doesn't have to give a shit about keeping bloat around like casting staff. Wizards can just outright say, "fuck this nerd-sport; we are tired of dealing with all your problems."

They've already taken the first step, CFB is doing all the GPs.

>>54616621
>>54616707
I hate that wizards feels this way. I wish the hasbro bigwigs would come down and tell them they're going to go big or go home. Make gps 50k for first and the pro-tour 1 Million.

>>54616650
>Sees the data
>I don't like the data!!! It has to be wrong and I have to be right thanks to my personal form of categorization.
Keep your autism in check
>>54616707
>So is that what we're supposed to say to everyone who wants to achieve the best in this game?
Yes. The foil tokens have it written in the back

I think this is what is going to happen.

Games stores are going to die, this is a irrefutable fact; retail is going and the customers that frequent a nerd store are the same sort of customers that will do all their thing online. It's clear people will buy shit regardless of the opinions of others or quality, so the friendly store owner is going to be replaced by a 5-star rating and people who offer comments and demos for free online.

Before that happens, everyone is jumping ship to final retail fortress-ship of Walmart or Barnes and Noble; board games and card games alike. Some club-like form of Magic will remain, the key word being "organized" to include pre-releases because there will always be churches or clubs to rent space from and the Channel Fireball and Starcity leagues performing the same role as the Chess Federation. MTGO will become similar to Hearthstone (or most likely die in the face of Wizards' almost certain failure with the upcoming digital update).

I think this world is coming quicker than we realize. I'm talking like 10 years. Wizards should know this, and if they don't, then we will see them fail. When the stores die Magic will be left in the fucking cold because there's no self-promotion like Pokemon and YuGiOh. Good things, like Magic, have died for lack of care and I feel like Wizards is exhibiting that lack of care; just like model train manufacturers have failed to compete against video games. Magic passing seems very real especially when Hearthstone has successfully stolen double digit percentages of the landscape and for YEARS MTGO saw zero innovation to address its presence.

>>54616743
No, their data literally doesn't make sense. Kiln Fiend, for example, wins by pumping the shit of a creature while filtering cards, hitting an Apostle's Blessing if it can to bypass blockers and removal, and swinging for lethal. It doesn't really make sense calling it aggro and the data isn't even complete. Inside-Out or Tireless Tribe Combo, whatever the fuck you want to call it, swings in to one-shot an opponent, so it makes sense calling it a combo deck, but they have 2 listings. The deck and its variants have been played 12 times since the Challenges started at the end of May, and that composes 3.77% of 318 decks that top 32'd with a positive record. The data there is incomplete and not representative of the format. None of this even takes into account that the format is only sanctioned officially on MTGO, but Wizards just imposed restrictions on the 5 5-0 lists published daily, so the meta isn't even completely clear with the data that's available.

I'm autistic as fuck for knowing this and responding to you; I am also making substantiated claims

>>54616575
coffers isn't on the reserved list, he is talking about coffers as in the amount of money you need to buy certain cards.

>>54607715
yeah they're client is way better than MTGO as well, too bad the game is pretty boring

>>54617283
I don't think we can level accusations of which is the lesser game or which is the better game anymore.

That's just not a talking point. We can all think of examples of media, games, and literature that are relative dogshit but will be with society for decades. Whatever Magic is, and we all know it's the better game, the ultimate thing that matters is whether or not the game is in the hands of people who know what the fuck they're doing.

And knowing what you're doing means having a presentation and model that is appealing and mostly fair to a broad audience. And Magic, as it is, has neither. Wizards is in the business of taking blowjobs from the upper 1% of the stores, pros, and e-celebrities who have zero problems playing this game on account of how much they whore themselves out to market the game for spoilers. Magic right now as it is experienced by most people is not about gradually growing out of the game; people leave because everything about the game that isn't gameplay is rotten. The presentation, the superheroes, the fact that every single prerelease the event reporter breaks. And eventually, we all see it in one way or another and leave; whoever is left is... people like Rudy or cheaters or angleshooters like Froleich.

I cannot imagine what sort of company has such low standards such that it doesn't mind playing second fiddle to a fucking Pokemon client in terms of aesthetics and computing stability.

This upcoming UN set is the most offensive waste of goddamn resources Wizards has green-lit yet. Shit like that is for celebrations. What the fuck do we have to celebrate? Oh yeah, Innistrad and Zendikar just rotated some months earlier, I wonder how many kids are going to be cool for that.

>>54617413
I disagree.

>>54617413
As bad as WotC's decision making has been, I still have faith in them.
They're backed by one of the biggest toy making company, they have nearly 25 years of experience and Magic is an evergreen game that will remain enjoyable no matter the current year (like chess for example)
When you have billions on the line and higher ups demanding good numbers eventually they will have to get their shit together like they did in the past

We're also in a good period for TCGs in general. Hearthstone brought a huge amount of people to the genre to the point where dozens of online TCGs have been created to meet the new demand, so far WotC has failed to capitalize on that, but when they do we will have another boom similar to the one we had circa 2012

>>54617901
I don't disagree that Magic will always be entertaining. Entertainment is weaved into the fabric of the game's design. There is something appealing about it that speaks to different kinds of people.

The problem I feel is, it's not going to be great. On some level there isn't the effort that is going into the game or the story as much as there used to be; and the effort to ensure the client is functioning is so lacking I just cannot comprehend how they tolerate it on a matter of principle; maybe the money is great without it; maybe the real programmers quit long ago.

In regards to game design I want to bring up a few examples.

In Kaladesh there were three 4-mana 3/3s that were more or less vanilla. They were common and more or less utterly useless to anybody. Magic has always had shit cards but we're talking vanilla Hill Giants that just cannot possibly be appealing to anybody. The 14th pick should be somewhat exciting even if it's crap. More and more there are just 14th level picks infesting the later 50% of packs. I mean just worthless garbage that is just a keyword tacked onto a body or one of those 4-mana land death + sweetener cards.

In Innistrad there were vanilla Madness creatures; two of them in fact. In the history of the mechanic, this was the first printing of vanilla creatures with Madness. They couldn't be bothered to jazz it up.

You're right, the game is pretty much immortal but the design and effort put into this shit is baby food. There's nothing to chew anymore. UW Fliers is just a goddamn crutch and cornerstone of every Limited design. Before it was something that was attached to a mechanic that dared to function in a strange way or to weird awkward bodies that didn't pass the vanilla test. Now UW Fliers is just that, with Embalm attached to it. It's good IMMEDIATELY, you don't have to sacrifice having to play a shit body for your value; it's just pure, free value. Any idiot can draft that deck.

>>54617901
>>54618089
Magic has a very real expiration date due to both card names and design space being very finite resources.

>>54618146
Either they've hit peak design space mechanics or they're lazy fuckers. Either way, we are seeing nothing but re-contextualization of familiar and iconic effects. Working off their ~5 year player lifespan, I want to accuse them of being lazy fuckers.

Because to me, you can still hit peak design space but still make interesting cards by jamming things together or providing old effects and boosting or lowering their value through the introduction or removal of other cards that made them bad/good. They are wholly and utterly unwilling to do that.

Look at Cube. There are people out there just building low-powered Cubes from Magic out of the scraps and it makes fascinating environments. Wizards has carte blanche to play custom-card-creator and they can't even create interesting Limited environments. Whoever the fuck designed Modern Masters 1 clearly wasn't involved with Modern Masters after that. The people curating the online Cubes are complete fucking morons.

The limits are not a problem if they would be willing to put in the effort because the world is so damn vast. But look at their Cube contests, they're just picking from piles of the shittiest designs instead of designs with adventure.

>>54618239
Their current inability to create interesting limited environments has more to do with their unwillingness to surprise players for fear that it will alienate them than anything. RoE was a very popular draft environment among experienced players, but casuals were supposedly put off by having to re-evaluate everything they knew about how to draft.

>>54618450
RoE is the exact kind of design that they're unwilling to do.

In that format Grizzly Bears were useless. Your "aggro" decks expected to dump 2-8 mana into the card, sometimes repeatedly. Primo Doom Blade card Vendetta, was actually a hard thing to use.

Straight up, I don't know anybody who drafts repeatedly AND casually. Sure, some people draft once but fuck them; they are in it just for the novelty, which means fear of complexity is the least of their emotions. Anybody who drafts a set more than a couple times is invested in exploring the set and they want the set to be spicy.

So who the fuck are they afraid of scaring? I seriously think they're just not willing to do the work.

>>54618504
>RoE is the exact kind of design that they're unwilling to do.
That's what I said.

>>54618514
And I was agreeing. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The contention was with scaring casuals. Why in the hell do they matter in this context. They draft once or twice, the people who are willing to draft multiple times only do so if the set isn't trash. So appeal to the people willing to do it multiple times.

>>54618531
My best guess is that WotC has calculated that most players don't draft a set more than like five or six times and that, using the same faulty logic of most video game developers, they have to get them to experience the entirety of the design within that time.

>>54618546
I don't understand why they can't do both. The people doing RoE a couple times will experience big stupid colorless monsters and Level Up in no-time. But underneath those mechanics was a rich world to explore.

Kaladesh was a pile of Vehicles and Energy. There was nothing beneath.

You can have it both ways. You don't have to exclude or sacrifice the depth to offer surface-level features. You can have your cake and eat it.

>>54615668
Because some people don't ever want to sell it and just want to play the game? If you won't see the money ever or in the next so an so years it doesn't matter how much is it worth. The cards could also get stolen or destroyed in that period. Rich people keep art at locked and safe places, they don't carry around in their bag every week.

I don't want an investment, I want a playing card.

>>54620931
>I don't want an investment, I want a playing card.
So don't play Vintage?

>>54616498
That means as in every case, buying thousands more than you need in a effort to raise the price or to sit on for a few years and wait for it to spike.

I wouldn't say get rid of the reserved list as much as allow functional reprints...
I mean are Griffin lords and Legendary Land walk with First strike that good?

>>54620973
We are mostly talking here about cards for Legacy/EDH. Just one retard is persistent in making Black Lotus the example, despite it being a horrible one.