/awg/ - Alternative Wargames General

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>>54555525
Watcha buildin, watcha playing?

How do you even paint shit that small?
>inb4 thin your paints
I get that, but still

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>>54555695
Its not that hard, you just need a steady hand.

Small models don't require the same level of detailing as larger models, since you aren't going to be looking at them on their own anyway.

Now, pic related is another matter entirely

>>54555695
one brush stroke can paint a thousand soldiers, if your scale is small enough

>>54555547
gw shit, but I'll be magnetizing their bases so they can mount into movement tray dioramas for KoW

>>54556349
You went very Sun Tzu with that one.

>>54555695
With very small brushes.

>>54556381
namaste

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Any of you guys have experience playing Gates of Antares?

I want to build myself a custom Freeborn Captain, but the Freeborn command squad as loads of options.
Was wondering what a good loadout would be, or if it is better just to keep it cheap and roll with the default plasma pistol?

I want to run a bunch of Ferals, if that makes a difference.

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>>54555525
eugh i should do something with my 6mm fantasy.

I really want to do a chaos force, but i've done nothing with the 4 armies ive got already. Lack of opponents and no clear rules direction … didn't really like 6mm KoW.

When you say GW, you doing warmaster, or WFB?

>>54556573
Those tiny skellies are adorable.

>Lack of opponents and no clear rules direction … didn't really like 6mm KoW.
Did you try different rules? I hear a lot of mixed things about Lion/Dragon Rampant, but just just being breakable doesn't make the game necessarily broken.

There should be a pdf floating around somewhere.

>>54556573
Those skellies are even kinda cute.

>>54556573
How is 6mm? I'm about to jump down to 15mm and considering going down to 6mm.

Any games like Mordheim but still in print and maybe more streamlined and customizable?

>>54555547
A 10-man squad of TAG's Halfling Rooster Cavalry. I've been doing 2 per day this week and should finish the last two tomorrow, will post pics if I have ok lighting.

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MoM is apparently sculpting Abathur.

>>54557127
Frostgrave is often compared to Mordheim.
Main difference is that you only get into the RPG elements of character building with the Wizard who leads your warband.
The rest are generic mooks that you can replace as needed, provided you have the coin, when playing a campaign.

It's not Mordheim 2.0 as a lot of people thought when it came out, it does it's own thing, but it certainly is still in print, as a nice range of plastic and metal miniatures from Northstar and the basic rules are pretty easy to understand.

As for customization you got a Wizard that gets to pick spells from several schools of magic, I think with the expansions it's 11 schools of magic, don't quote me on that though.
And you can use literally any miniature you like.

Because the profiles are generic the only important thing is the wargear. so your Wizard could be a human, ork, snakeman or a sentient owlbear.

There are a load of other skirmish games like Freebooter's Fate that you could look into as well. Frostgrave just come to mind cause it also has a focus on 'urban' warfare and campaign play.

>>54556573
I'm assuming the GW shit question was directed at me even though you didn't tag my post

I'm painting age of sigmar.

For 6mm I like HoTT, Mighty Armies and Pz8's really simple rules for pickup games or teaching new people

>>54556661
buy a 6mm sample from whatever company you like the look of and try painting a few things

I really like 6mm, but I'm thinking of making the jump to 15mm as well, mostly I paint 28mm so when I do 6mm it's for a break, but I really should paint more scales

28mm is by far my least favourite but it's the most commonly played at my club

>>54557127
>more streamlineable
>more customizable
these two are mutually exclusive

>>54557127
SoBaH is pretty good, they system is much more streamlined (which is hit or miss, you might hate it) but there's a lot of additional rules they've added and expanded on top of their simple engine.

That's Song of Blades and Heroes by the way

>>54557342
not him,but yes and no, of course more complexity brings more room for customization, but things can be more or less customizable. Probably he meant that the system mustn't be tied to soem set races like mordheim is, but let you create your own or at least personalize them.

>>54557400
since you can't play mordheim in GW stores anyways nothing stops you from proxying whatever you want, so you just pick whatever race you want to use as rules

>>54557447
>you can't play mordheim in GW stores

Fucking wot. Goddamn GW and their hatred of anything not currently being milked for all its worth.

>>54555760
.. fuck i now need 'invest' in this.

What manufacturer can expect a large order?

>>54557564
I mean, when was the last time you set foot in one of their stores anyways

>>54557604
You have a point, I'm just mad about gamers who want somewhere to play the game they want being denied that for no good reason.

>>54557359
Should I get the Advanced edition? Seems more recent

>>54557734
advanced has more rules, so if you like crunchy grit then yeah

otherwise the system is really simple

you'll have to homebrew a bit to make the older expansions work with advanced though, like the campaign rules, the dungeon crawl rules and stuff

>>54557838
If I get the advanced edition is there a clear line where the advanced rules come in to play? That way they could optional you know?

>>54557214
>That right guy perreando.
How horrifing.

>>54557447
of course, but if there is a rulebook which already does what he wants he can tweak, it would be easier.

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>>54557584
GHQ, ALWAYS GHQ

www.magistermilitum.com is the best place.

Pictured: Baccus 6mm Mahdist Infantry and GHQ tanks/armored cars for my "Valkyria Chronicles: Kebab Edition" 6mm force (yes, I was the guy asking about panzerfaust-wielding camel cavalry the other day)

Why are company based wargames so dead anyway? Reminds me of the german government during the Weimar Repulic, tons of rulesets, all of them bad to mediocre.

>>54558212
People mainly Plays Gw games or historics. Heck, we have had lots of problem to maintain that general alive and it includes anything not-Infinity/WarmHordes/dropzone/Not-Gw-but-somehow-acept-LoTR.

>>54558212
> I have a cool idea for a wargame!
> Does a kickstarter
> delivers (maybe)
> game never gets widespread retail support
> game ded

It's the new lifecycle of wargames. There's SO MANY goddamn rulesets that it's really a buyer's market and you're only really gonna play the big games because those are the ones you can find opponents for.

>>54558325
>People mainly Plays Gw games or historics
No fucking wonder. I've literally been playing army level fantasy wargames since I started making simplistic ones up myself at age 7 using Risk miniatures, and I couldn't think of a single ruleset I'd actually want to play.

>>54558362
> game never gets widespread retail support
because most are mediocre, because they copy the staples (which haven't evolved since the 80s) or try some dumb shit like being "rules-lite"

>>54558101
yeah and the rulebook is mordeheim?

there's a reason why even without support we're still talking about mordeheim right now, nothing comes close to replacing it

>>54558212
There's always been a lot of chaff out there, KS and the internet just makes it so much easier to see it all.

Dark Osprey link in the trove looks dead. solutions?
someonr can share it again ?

>>54559286
ooh, i thought you were implying his qeustion was pointless because mordheim can be modded.

Anyone here play This is Not a Test? How is it?

>>54561780
All I can say is check out GMG's campaign on it about the remnants of the USDA chasing down mutant farm animals trying to form a communist regime.

>>54562136
That sounds amazing

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this general is the best damn sign of free thought on /tg/ right now.

praise to you all.

>>54562169
It was. I didn't know the rules too well, but the story they came up for it was great.

Amateur game designer with a few questions looking for feedback.

First, would a platoon size game is the vain of Warmahordes or Warzone, a few small units that activate together but resolve their actions separately, using a one roll opposed die pool system set in a Classical Era high fantasy have its appeal, or is the market too saturated right now for it to find a niche?

Following that, if I was looking at about a few units of 4-6, a few solo models, and one or two larger showpiece models, aiming for around 20 models on the field, would the individual resolutions be too much if the system is
>Both roll dice
>Count successes
>Attacker does damage if he rolls more successes, without making a second roll

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>>54555695
Undercoat them, paint the main colors (base color of uniform/skin, little dab of paint for a face or hand, paint the weapon, paint the helmet)
then give them an ink or wash, and you're done. They're pretty fast to paint and no one is going to be able to look close enough to see if there is actually any "detail". Usually you need a magnifying glass to get a good look. On the table they just look cool like tiny mans running around.

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>>54564385
>no one is going to be able to look close enough to see if there is actually any "detail". Usually you need a magnifying glass to get a good look.
Depends on how you got to 6/3mm I think. From a historical context people might not look closely (but then GCHQ has amazing detail, so why not). If you are with people who got interested via GWs 6mm epic system there's a very high standard of detail/expectation (without magnifying glasses, 6mm isnt THAT small)

What does /awg/ think of the original Chainmail rules?

>>54566099
*GHQ

>>54563592
obligatory "the market is very saturated period". The market is indeed saturated fi you say somethign as generic as fantasy. The two examples which come to mind for high profile game which kind of fit the description are dark age and wrath of kings(which might be actually smalle, not sure), but of course there are bound to be other less known games out there (maybe maybe SoBaH was doing somethign like that? i heard soemthing).
What does "would the individual resolutions be too much" mean?I guess it could wrk whatever the question is, but there are many ways to go at what you are describing, but why make it bucket of dice? How are you using that feature?

Why are you thinking of getting into building such game if you don't even know the market?

>>54566099
Those are adorable.

>>54563592

Streamlining combat is always good, especially if you are doing squad combat like Warmahordes. That shit gets real complicated real quick.

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>>54561780

It's pretty good, probabley my favorite skirmish game atm.

It's very much a sandbox type of game though, there are enough factions and options within those factions to do almost whatever you want. I know for some people thats a huge plus but others prefer a more structured.

It's very much a "your dudes" kind of game. My dudes are a group of Stalker/Metro 2033 inspired Caravaners.

>>54566236
Sorry, should've been clearer. The market is saturated, with the biggest trend being small fantasy skirmish games, with a leaning towards Tolkien-esque central European fantasy, though its moving away from that, with a large increase in steampunk Victorian style games; or mass games of a different scale, generally sci-fi or historical. What I was wondering is if there's enough of a niche without too much overlap. The platoon level of 20-40 models is still pretty bare. The biggest realistic competition (anyone that thinks they can go up against something like GW or X-wing out of the gate is a fool), is Warmahordes, which is currently in a weird spot with the transition to MKIII going roughly. It also has a different, though similar aesthetic (WMH going for fantasy in a later period, closer to WWI, while what I meant by classical era is an earlier period more attuned to Greek, Mesopotamia, Roman, north African, etc.). After that, I'd say Wrath of Kings. Again, fantasy setting, but different aesthetic. There's also games like Warzone, not a direct competition due to being a sci-fi game, but still fits the niche of scale, and Godslayer, a lesser known and smaller game.

And yeah, the wording on that sucked. I'm trying to decide is when too many actions is too many, especially when it comes to the level of interaction. One of my biggest issues with Warmahordes and GW games is that you do everything with little to no say from your opponent. But at the same time, when does the resolution feel like a chore? Is it better to go "I roll 3 dice, trying to score X+, and you roll 3 dice, trying to score X+, and then we figure it out from there" over one person making multiple rolls knowing they need a X+.

>>54567833
I think Warmahordes biggest problem is the lack of interaction. Unless you have Tough, you really can't do much as the other player goes.

>>54568371
i would say nothing really as what you are describing comes to mind, but i of course don't know everything and don't know if the overlap is enough to say there is no room or not.
As for the rolls, it's pretty obvious, the less rolls the better, the less exchanges in person rollign the better. I wouldn't say rollign dice in yuor opponent turn counts as interaciton, but i do understand that rolling for your mens lives feels better then just lookign at your opponent rolling. I like the fact that the rollign system you presented is simultaneus, so that the defending player both gets to roll and doesn't slow down the roll too much.
In my experience 2 rolls for the resolution of an attack is good, one is awkward or for more rules light games and three is just dragging it(unless it's a small skirmish game, and even then it can usually be avoided). Again i really like your idea because it means you get two rolls and it shouldn't take as long as the typical "two rolls to resolve" since you do them together. But again we are just talkign hipothetically and you need to make the system work of course.

>>54568371
Ok, the problem with interaction is almost always the turn system not the actual rolling.
Warmahordes is full IGOUGO which means you get to sit there and do dick for like three ~15-20 minute chunks (when it's your opponent's turn). Which sucks.

This idea that rolling dice to defend against an attack is any kind of real interaction is a false one - there's no choice involved in that, you're just picking up a die/dice and dropping it. All you're doing with that is slowing the game down by swapping the "cognitive load" over from the actual acting player to the non-acting player, and then back again.

Have acting and resolving a thing be fast. Have real meaningful reactions be a possibility. Shorten the delay between an opponent acting and you're reacting in response. That's how you create meaningful levels interaction. Don't pretend-add interaction by wasting the non-acting player's time with dice rolling.

That's not to say you should entirely discard the idea that both people roll for an action - that comes down to what you do with the dice. The thing with rolling is that you can introduce mechanics that are easier to mess with if you're rolling. You can't, for example, re-roll a failure if you never rolled at all.

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>>54555525
>want to expand to something other than 40k
>the only other game played in my area is WMH (aka poorhammer 40k)
How do you get a community going for alternative wargames?

>>54568647
Show it off.
Frequently this might need you bringing at least 2 armies and sharing one with other people as you play games.

If you're lucky, you can maybe proxy entire armies and people will look at the rules rather than the models.

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Any tactical tips for someone looking to start an Epic Tau force? The Onslaught Tau proxies look neat.
There's like 2 or 3 people who play it at my club and small scale stuff is appealing more and more recently.

I just got interested in Wargaming a few days ago when I watch some people play 40k on YouTube. Then when I watched some paint tutorials I was hooked. Problem is that Warhammer is ridiculously expensive.

I want to get into Wargaming and painting miniatures and playing, but I have no idea where to start or what other games people will play other than Warhammer, and of course I want it to be a cheaper alternative to 40k

>>54557731
The company no longer supporting a product is a pretty good reason for not letting you use their marketing tools (which is what tables are) for free.

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>>54568842
It really depends of where are you from and your zone.
You will probably find x-wing easy, it comes painted and it's fun, easy and with depth.
For games, Infinity it's pretty good, a bit complicated at the start and the individual minis aren't cheap, but you don't need lots of them.
IF you like Sci fi, 15mm goes around less than a pound for infantry and ten to 15 bucks for vehicles. If you want to go cheaper, 6mm will give you plenty of minis to play "big"games for relatively cheap. Dropzone comander seems to be pretty popular, and you can find generic games like Gruntz if the your dudes aproach is your thingie.

>>54568842
Honestly, if you aim for a smaller force, and make use of the "Start Collecting" boxes, GW games are not significantly more expensive than their competition. They only get expensive when you get into large-armies big battle stuff.

>>54567894
Is that a kitbash?
what did you use? warlords plastic 2ww winter troops and something else?
looks amazing.
also post your tnt band, im waiting for some mini to arrive to make mine!

>>54569291
>warlords plastic 2ww winter troops
Russians right?

>>54568842
First you should let us know what you want in your ideal game:

Do you prefer fantasy, sci fi, or historical settings?

Would you like to play with a handful of skirmishing infantry, a few small infantry squads supported by one or two tanks/cavalrymen/monsters/cannons/whatever equivalent unit in the setting, or with large forces fighting battles with hundreds of infantry and dozens of bigger supporting minis as above?

Would you prefer something that's simple and easy to learn, or something more engrossing that tries to simulate warfare more accurately and give you loads of choices?

Lastly, can you more or less tell us what does and does not matter to you when deciding on a game out of these options: Cheap or reasonably priced minis, minis that are fun to paint, games with a large enough community to allow you to easily find opponents, minis with the potential for easy customisation, balanced or generally well-designed rules.

It's probably a lot to think about for someone with no experience, but it's useful for you to consider what you want out of the hobby and useful for us to recommend something you'll probably like. Fair warning though, even with extremely cheap minis you'll probably find that you spend plenty on just getting set up with all the paints, brushes, equipment, etc.

>>54567894
>Stalker/Metro 2033 inspired

My darkened familial relation

>>54569641
I think so.
And i guess the head is from gw steel legion.
the weapon from some wargames facrory sprue maybe.
Good stuff, i want to see more.

>>54569863
>And i guess the head is from gw steel legion.

Nah, it's plastic or resin.

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>>54569291

Yeah it's a kitbash. Warlord winter soviets with a few warlord USMC bit too. The gun is the wargames factory/warlord apocalypse survivors.

The head is from a website I found called roleplayupkit.com, some polack making casts in his shed. I'd decided I wanted gasmask heads but I wanted them all to be different which was going to be hella expensive since most companies sell heads in pack of 5 or 10 so I'd need to buy 50+ to make sure everyone was slightly different. I was just about to give up when I found this guy selling exactly what I wanted.

God Bless you polack.

I've only got pictures of 2 other guys, I'll post more when they are painted (so in about 3 years ...)

This is Vaclav who is the leader of the warband and the owner and proprietor of Crazy Vaclav's place of Bargains.

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>>54569997

And this is Bogdan.

>>54568922
GW is a minis and hobby company...If it gets people interested in buying minis from them, why get in the way of consumer goodwill?

>>54568842
>and of course I want it to be a cheaper alternative to 40k
If you like the setting you could check out Necromunda or Shadow War Armageddon. Those are smaller skirmish games were you need a lot less miniatures.

If you want to play a different game you'll have to do a bit of investigating about what is being played in your local meta. Or try to convince a few friends to start something with you.

>>54570116
Because they don't sell any mordheim minis? They gain nothing from someone picking up mordheim as opposed to AoS or 40k.

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>>54568491
This essentially. IGoUGo is "I alphastrike, you stick your thumb up your ass."

Although Bolt Action is popular, I dislike the die-bag mechanic because it does not scale upward, and makes it easy to be Igougo.

I have been tweaking my homebrew "alternating activation" system where rather than being random, activating consecutive units or interrupting actions uses a "Command Point" mechanic, representing your ability to coordinate your forces. I stole the name from 8e 40k, but hate how CP in that system are basically a MOBA manabar.

CP replenishes at the start of the turn, but its usage is critically important, as you use it for bringing units from Reserves, having units activate or interrupt after a half-action, or to "retain the initiative" (letting you activate consecutive units during your activation). Rather than a die bag or initiative rolls or anything "random" to determine turn order, activating more than one consecutive unit costs an incrementing amount of CP, so activating 2 units then 2 units costs 1 CP, but activating all 4 at once costs 6 CP.

This is my latest iteration. I clarified the rules for Interrupt Mechanics, as well as the rules for using CP to Interrupt Interrupts, and resolving interruptions in a "stack." I find that the Interrupt/counterinterrupt system lets me keep a very small number of actions per turn (no need for an Overwatch action, "supporting fire" action, etc).

>>54570385
Yeah, stuff like this is probably my preferred.
Alt Activation where you have resources (preferably influenced by leaders of some sort, or something similar. As you say, it's an "ability to coordinate" resource) to mess with the activation system. Retaining the Initiative is a good idea to have. I like how certain armies can with it in special ways.

Well done. Have you properly play-tested it?

One thing I like to have with AA is that Initiative is only done at the start of the game, and the then for each round after the player who finished activating last round acts first in the new round. In addition to that, you cannot activate the unit you activated last, in the previous turn. Warzone Resurrection does this, I believe.

You appear to have Initiative rolled every round, yeah? If you do that, you should make it so you can at least influence it. Spending CP to add to the roll is a good, easy way to do it. That way is fun, too.

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>>54557193
Finished!

Disregard the bare bases, I don't have my basing stuff with me right now so I'll have to wait to do that.

>>54566112
they're shit

>>54568647
build two armies and demo it

if you don't know what that means walk into a GW and tell them with a straight face that you've never played a wargame before and want to see how its played

>>54568842
>Problem is that Warhammer is ridiculously expensive.

how much money did you spend on your pc

>>54570678
They look proper cocky.

>>54570116
because mordheim didn't work to get people into WHFB, before the end times and the AoS reboot WHFB had awful sales, selling less globally than paints.

With the AoS reboot they've put a lot of work into recruiting and options for getting started, start collecting, three starter sets at different price points, free rules, skirmish, path to glory, etc etc.

>>54571059
So basically what they couldn't bother doing when fantasy was around, now they do with the new system that's shit.

I still don't know how any of AoS can be defended, but whatever. Go back to /awg/.

And to stay on topic - anyone happen to have Car Wars or Warlands in pdf? The postapoc car bug bit me, dug out my unopened Hot Wheels collection which includes mostly muscle cars and ordered a Ford Falcon to convert it to the Pursuit Special with parts from Brigade Games. Also, Dark Future pdfs are welcomed as well.

>>54567894
I love TnT - the problem is that the only FLGS nearby is really just a Magic/Yugioh place, and the few minis players are 40k. I've tried running demos and even chatting with Joe (the founder) online, but, very little there. I honestly have just wound up playing TnT as a solo using the Ground-combat rules from 5150.

Still fun as hell.

>>54571122
>Go back to /awg/.

Not that anon but wut

>>54570008
Love him.

Love his soviet helmet too. I'm going for a more honest Fallout-style from Brother Vinni's minis.

>>54571156
I mean get back to /awg/, as in stay on topic. Sorry, 1.5 Skype meetings with Indians wears me out a bit.

>>54555525
Hello I'm from wargames general, a /tg/ discord server primarily focused on TTRPG and Wargaming. We've got a big community that we'd love to see more people come into. Come check us out.
https://discord.gg/GBcypkT

>>54571287
dude. Last thread was one of the few times we actually hit the bump limit.
Trying to take the discussion elsewhere from a thread like this is bad form, especially since it's the only semi-permanent place to discuss non GW shit that doesn't fall into /hwg/ territory on /tg/.

What the fuck is discord anyway?

>>54571528
>What the fuck is discord anyway?

It's like IRC, only more proprietary.

>>54570550
Limited, not proper. Just some "mechanics" tests, each side getting 4 squads of 5 Tacmarines to test how the turn structure plays out. I haven't done full-on games, as well as explicit ways to break the system. How many CP is a placeholder for now, as I'm still thinking about how to do it, whether to make it a Warmahordes Focus/Fury mechanic, keep it abstracted but let HQs provide extra CP/turn, or some other implementation. I'll think about the init rolls and backtoback activations too.

I'm still at odds as to whether I want rules for aircraft ("Air missions") or offtable attacks, but I'm meh for now.

The Interrupt system will need more fine-tuning too. The key item is when you Declare an attack as an interrupt, it must be against the unit at the top of the stack. A 3rd level Interrupt would not be able to attack the original unit that was Interrupted!

Another item I'm on the fence about how to handle is what happens if you declare an attack, but then cannot actually carry it out after an interrupt. Say, a unit ducks out of LOS before you shoot. I imagine they could declare a subsequent target, potentially triggering another round of interrupts.

Finally, I'm thinking about how to handle vehicles ramming and stuff.

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>>54571528
Discord is a voice chat program.

>>54571003
Tthat's a shitty comparison and you know it. I can spend $400 on a laptop that does a multitude of things. Miniatures gaming is expensive, and GW is on the higher end of the price scale.

>>54571003
That's not really a valid comparison, how much did you spend on your car? How much did you spend on your house? How much did you spend on your shoes? They're vastly different things you own for vastly different purposes.

>>54571730
And my original text got deleted. Weird.

Anyway I'm happy we'll be getting plastic Crusaders, but I'm irked at the changes to the arms. I liked the give connection at the elbow that the Cobra and Grizzly have, I would gladly sacrifice a bicep swivel to have that back.

I'm about to get into 15mm scifi. I was thinking of using Grimdark Future (converted to centimeters) but with the initiative/activation rules from Patrol Angis, as well as its unit composition so I could field dudes from solos, to two mans, to 10 man units. Do you think that would totally destroy the system balance or make it more versatile?

>>54569997
>>54570008

Awesome! I expecially love bogdan. Cant wait to start working on my gang, il make the most from the bikers from warlord/wargames + some greenstuff, hoping to recreate a mad max feeling.

Also gotta check on those heads.

Did tou already play a game?

>>54557905
A lot of the rules added in Advanced are modular. You can pick and choose what you like. The biggest difference is the reaction system where you can take actions during your opponent's turn.

>>54563592
Nothing about this sounds offensive or bad. But nothing about it sounds interesting. What's your game's hook? Why play it instead of the dozens of other games out there? What's the key feature here?

Otherwise, I played a lot of Warmachine/Hordes and gave it up when I started finding games like FiveCore and Infinity. I haven't played Guild Ball yet but it sounds like it'd be enjoyable as well. The biggest reason as like you've said, long turns with too much downtime. WM/H is fairly boring because of it.

Also, the individual guys in a unit activating are a massive time sink. The game can't decide if it's a skirmish game or something larger and rests uncomfortably in the middle.

>>54572019
What do the people you plan to play this with think?

The more screwball custom you get the harder it is to find anyone else who'll give a shit.

>>54572282
I was gonna get two armies to demo the game at my flgs....I haven't got any set group yet.

>>54572019
I think it should work, though I don't know much about Grimdark Future (isn't that what 1p40k got renamed to?)

Thing is with Patrol Angis a large part of the army building is choosing weapons and wargear and I don't know how well that would translate. Balance also may be different - PA is heavily geared towards shooting.

>>54572306
You're probably wasting your time.

>>54572343
:(

>>54572317
Yeah it's the 1pg40k rules.

I really wouldn't take anything else from PA. I really like patrol anis, I just want more diversity in armies and Grimdark future has that.

My view is that changing the initiative system to be more tactical, as well as being able to field units of varying sizes, would enhance rather than detract from GDF. Full on IGOUGO is kinda boring.

>>54572482
What is the PA initiative system?

GDF doesn't use IGOUGO. It's Alt Activation.

>>54572534
> Roll to win initiative, make note of what the winning score is.
> Both players get a number of activation tokens equal to the winning score, the player who won initiative also gets an extra one.
> Players alternate assigning their activation tokens to their units.
> Players then take turns using their tokens to activate units, in some cases you can also activate on your opponent's go, for example to do overwatch fire.

>>54557359
Advanced is way better in my opinion. It adds a reaction system which brings a lot to the game, in tactics and fun.

>>54572584
N.B. it is possible to just dump all your tokens on one unit and activate it a bunch of times but this is almost never a good idea.

>>54572584
>>54572600
That third step is interesting. So all tokens are assigned by the time action starts?
If the unit dies, are all tokens on it lost?

>>54572317
Yea, it's 1p40k with a lot of the rules tweaked and or simplified. Still pretty fun tho, and the skirmish campaign rules are good too.

>>54572614
The tokens are all assigned but the actions they will be used for are not determined until you use them. So say I have three tokens and give two to one squad and one to another, I have committed to activating the first squad twice and the second once but exactly what I'm going to make them do isn't set in stone yet.

If a unit is totally wiped out then yes it loses any tokens left on it, you can also force your opponent to lose tokens through damage (you can discard them to ignore hits).

A good strategy is to use command units, any tokens assigned to them can be 'transferred' to any unit under their command, so you can dump your tokens on a commander, hide him out of sight and not risk losing any tokens.

The drawback to this is firstly you can't use spare tokens to negate damage/pinning and secondly when you 'transfer' a token there's a small chance it might get 'lost in transit' and the order is wasted

>>54572614
I would certainly assume so. That's part of the reason why dumping everything into one unit is a bad idea in my book.

So it's not really much of a chance for GDF, then. What about messing with unit sizes? GDF usually has your purchase in units of 5. Would using that purely as a "resource allocation" number hurt the game you think? Say I purchase two units of five, but field instead a unit of 6 and two units of two. In my view, it doesn't hurt anything much...

>>54572664
>That's part of the reason why dumping everything into one unit is a bad idea in my book.

Another big part of why it's bad is that everytime a unit shoots at the enemy, the enemy gets to snap fire back (unless they're operating a heavy weapons platform or something).

So if you decide to send your best unit on a rambo rampage, it's going to take a LOT of return fire.

>>54572664
The unit size is mainly for upgrade lists. In a unit of 5, you usually can replace up to 2 base weapons with specialist weapons, for example.

The other thing you can do is buy 2 copies of a unit and field them together, so you can get 4 special weapons in one unit, but any unit-wide upgrades are doubled, since you buy them for each unit.

>>54572711
So as long as I stick to strict upgrade per unit, it shouldn't hurt if I field things as I wish?

>>54572785
Eh, probably not. If you field the special weapons separately, you won't have the other guys as meatshields, which is fine if you have tougher high Defense units like the Battle Brothers, but doing that with the HDF is asking for your special weapons to be blown away immediately.

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I'm looking to build terrain for a weird west game (Great Rail Wars). Does anyone have any suggestions to look for terrain or building terrain for it (28-33mm).

>>54573969
4ground have some western buildings.

>>54572688
That seems exploitable if you run artillery or other non-LOs weapons.

>>54574117
Heavy weapons generally cannot reaction fire.

>>54574155
I meant in terms of dumping action tokens.

>>54574352
Support weapons can only fire once per turn unless you take a loader, in which case you can fire twice.

>>54574435
Fair enough. I'll give GDF a look either way. I'm #54570385 btw, aka "alternate one unit at a time, CP as a resource"

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>>54573969
Renedra have a few buildings. I think a church, barn and a farmhouse + misc stuff like fences.
4Grounds, as mentioned, would have been my other recommendation.
I'm sure there are other companies doing mdf buildings that have old west stuff too.

I don't know exactly how weird the Great Rail Wars are, but Rob Hawkins hobby blog had some project logs for Wild West Exodus gaming tables, might be worth checking out for inspiration too.

And if you need a Train for the Great Rail Wars you could keep an eye out for 0 scale train toys.
>pic related

>>54571752
Elbows are easier to rotate nicely by cutting and greenstuff than the bicep like that.

Now, shoulder pivoting is what the kits really needed.

>>54575184
I'm totally down for the should pivots they added, but I'm no good at the whole modification thing. I'll deal with it because fuck yes plastic PRDF, but I still think it's a silly decision.

>>54575677
That's fair, a lot of my efforts to repose arms didn't quite look all that good.

I foresee me buying big into this if the Utopia stuff looks good, then wondering how the fuck you're supposed to play Utopia because none of their shit makes any sense.

>>54572067

Yeah played quite a few games now, me and a friend even played a mini campaign with just the two of us, really good fun.

>>54576102
Have any house rules?

>>54576009
Utopia are certainly an interesting faction. Right now, as it stands, they benefit greatly from being able to take CEF hover tanks as allies. I'm hoping one of the goals in this campaign will be to maybe give Utopia a new unit or two. There was some sort of Utopian tank from way back when that looked kinda awesome.

>>54568491
Of course. Its a false sense, but still adds to it. Its why GW armor saves or Dark Age's way of wounding are more satisfying than something like Kings of War, where the one player does everything. More real interactions are things like alt activation, stealing initiative, choosing how to react to an attack, such as counter-attacking or defending in melee.

On that topic, I am trying to implement a way to fight back in melee, the idea is that which ever side rolls the most successes strikes, as opposed to the one sided attacker vs. defender. But the biggest problem I am having is making the changes in a way to make it not a no brainer but to not subvert the basic attack rules. I want it to be "here is how you make an attack, in melee you can also do this", not "this is how you make a non-melee attack, this is how you make a melee attack". Right now, all the inherent changes I can make to prevent it works against other forms of attack; range and cover come into effect, making the attacker less effective, so if I take those into effect, it makes attacking back in melee better.

I'll do a quick run-down of the whole system idea in a bit once I write it all down.

>>54555760
Fuck that's adorable.

>>54576140

Nope. I've had s few ideas for weapons and weapon mods that I might give a bash at some point.

I'm a bit of a gear queer and want to be able to make stuff tacticool.

>>54576897
>Kings of War

This is true. I enjoy KoW quite a bit but in my group we roll nerve for our own guys.

I know it makes no practical difference it just "feels" better.

how come all grid based wargames i ever saw are big scale? Is there any example of a skirmish level grid based wargame or ais that a thing for RPGs only?

>>54567894
>>54569997
>>54570008
Hey man these are bloody awesome. Do you have any more? Also any terrain? I had an idea for a piece of card off the bottom of a flower box. I planned on cutting it up and slapping bits all over it but it may look more Mos Eisley rather than post apoc

>>54577417
Endless Fantasy Tactics.

So question for you folks. Are there any companies that make decent, pre-painted 15mm sci-fi terrain? I want to start getting some terrain for Heavy Gear but if possibly would like to avoid even more shit to paint.

>>54577465
4ground have some 15mm stuff and everything they do is prepainted, though it still requires assembly.

>>54577465
thank you

>>54577514
Sweet, I'll check them out!

>>54577526
No problem. I love it but it isn't super popular.

>>54577417
>Is there any example of a skirmish level grid based wargame
Yeah, Deadzone does that.
They sell gaming mats with the grid and their plastic scenery is also scaled to represent the cubes of the world space.
One of the man Dust incarnations also had grid bases gameplay.

The old Judge Dredd may have had rules for that too, cause the Citi Block book by GW mentions a rules conversion for 40k so you can play 40k on the squares too.

>>54576897
So the bare system I'm working works off 5 main stats: Range, Attack Skill, Defense Skill, Power, and Armor.
>Range
Its the range on the weapon, only difference from any other game is the range is how many times you get -1 to your attack roll, i.e. if you have range 8, a target 13" away is -1 to hit, one 16" away is -2
>Attack Skill
This what the defending roll uses to score a success. The idea is the stat is how good the attacker is, and the defender is trying to overcome it.
>Defense Skill
Same as Attack, but for the other side of the roll.
>Power
Is added to the successes rolled to determine damage. Is based off of the weapon used.
>Armor
Absorbs Power and successes.

The process for a basic attack is:
>Attacker declares target, measures range, etc.
>Attacker and defender roll 3D12
>Attacker scores a success on X+, using the target's defense
>Defender cancels a success on X+, using the attacker's skill
>One or more dice that roll an unmodified '12' means its a crit, the roll gets an extra success/cancel, and if the attacker has any crit effects, they apply on a hit
>Total up any successes and cancel any based on the rolls, if the attacker is left with 1+ successes, its a hit
>Add Power to the successes and compare to Armor, if its more than the Armor, you do a point of damage
>Models in a unit activating can support another model by forgoing their attack, the supported model gains +1 Power for each other model supporting
So if a model with Power +1 attacks a model with Armor of 2, it would need to score 2 or more successes to damage. If it was supported by 2 other models, it'd still need to score at least one success to hit. I also limited it to one damage per attack to prevent just dumping support into one attack from being the end all answer, you can better guarantee damage with a supported attack, but it might not be the most effecient.

>>54577157
KoW is one of the best examples of sitting there with your thumb up your ass while your guys died. It even makes more sense for the owning unit to take the test, but its instead all done by one player.

>>54568715
This. I've seen more people start wargames because two people showed up with nice looking armies and played a game all casual. then some one says, "oh man that looks pretty cool." and one of the two people says, "yeah want to give it a try?" and points to their army.

and then it spreads like a disease.

>>54581314
>... people start wargames because two people showed up ...

Buzzactly. You can't do it alone. You need at least one other person to show off that it's a good time.

>>54581468
You have a friend you can talk into starting with you, r-right anon?

>>54582359
No. I don't. This is 4chan, remember.

>>54577417
HOF Fireteam is grid based

>>54568647
Buy some x-wings.
Player basd will grow on a weekly basis. Yes its that good.

Is anyone here familiar with Wreck Age? I'm very interested in the fluff but I'm curious how good the warband creation is. The new free skirmish rules seem to be putting an emphasis on stat cards that come with their models.

Am I better off sticking to Scrappers or This is Not a Test if I want a warband game?

>>54555547
Warhamster stuff while I wait for my Test of honour stuff to arrived so I can start converting and writing an article series on it.

>>54585065
What sort of conversions are you planning?

>>54585102
Making them Skeletons. Maybe have one carrying his own head where it's been cut off due to sudoku.

Japanese mythology doesn't have undead warriors he way our fantasy does so I pretty much have free reign to do whatever I want. The one real exception being a giant skeleton made out of smaller skeletons but I'm not sure how I would pull that off outside of a display base and finding some cheap skeleton toy to have peering over a cliff.

>>54558389
>since the 80s
Yeah, well, look up Tony Bath's ancient rules some time, and Featherstone's variations of them. A lot of stuff is very, very old in the hobby.

desu we could stand to go back to some of their ideas, as well as innovating

>>54566112
They are bad, the fantasy supplement is not particularly good, and the fantasy supplement just doesn't work with the 1:20 scale stuff either.

OD&D is good if you ignore the supplements and don't use the Chainmail mechanics and play on the outdoor survival map, but Chainmail itself is trash.

>>54570678
While I love short chubsters on cocks, they do just make me wish someone would fucking make decent 28mm chocobo cav, and civilian/adventurer chocobo-riders, and pack-chocobos.

and while we're talking fat, a whole range of knights in catarina armour

>>54573969
Sarissa for another MDF option. I don't know which other companies make them, but I know 4ground do some great ruined and (more importantly) under-construction western-style buildings, which do wonders for the look of a table.

>>54583481
And Firefight, IIRC, the 28mm game from the same folk.

HOF Fireteam did a neat thing with waypoints and orders - you set a path for a team, and had to do commandy things to make them change their orders. Say a basic game's on a 3x3 grid of tiles, one team might be ordered to move from the left baseline to the left centre, then to the left opponent's baseline, while team two advances a bit on the right then stops to cover them, and team three just sort of farts around because you want someone you can easily shift onto new orders. Then it turns out the left far tile is a horrible trap full of enemies and you fail to give team one new orders and they start dying horribly while team two try to get to a better position and you forget why you even had team three.

The scale of the game was a bit small to really make the order system feel appropriate, but it was fun and I'm all for similar systems.

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>>54586517
The Ridend from Relics have some sort-of Chocobo riders.

>>54586464
80s was sadly the peak of fantasy. It's unlikely we will see any innovation in wargaming from this point forward because any one with talent is being hover up by the game industry in 1 form or another.

The future of minis is for display purposes sadly

>>54573969
Another anon here to suggest 4grounds' western scenery, it's some pretty good stuff.

>>54577438

My friend handles the terrain side of things, I hate making terrain. He mostly uses that cardboard stuff, battlesystems I think it's called? plus some other bits and pieces including stuff he made himself. Next time we have a game I'll take a pic.

>>54588143
ah fair enough. Yeah I'm looking to get battle systems terrain for Walking Dead All Out War. No worries pal I look forward to seeing them, great job with your men

>>54588246

Be warned while the battle systems stuff is good it can be a pain to get out and pack up again, kind of fiddly.

>>54588423
yeah it does look it with the little clasps and everything. Thanks

>>54588143
please do

>>54579691
feels like in a system like this a point in power or armour would be very relevant, maybe too much.

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Looks like Necromunda might be coming back in some form.

A design question:
Some skirmish warband games have troop types, and then they limit how many of those troops you can get
I was idly wondering, what's the intent with this limitation? Is it actually necessary to do when designing these games, or does everybody just auto do it? EG:

This is Not a Test, for example, has 1 Leader, 2 Elites, 1/3 Specialists, and unlimited Rank & File.
Scrappers has 1 Commander, 2 Veteran, unlimited Troops.
Shadow War Armageddon has 1 Leader, ~2 Specialists, unlimited Troopers.
Frostgrave is similar but it's more of (to my knowledge) just "1 Wizard, 1 Apprentice, unlimited everything else" so it fits less well here.

Rogue Stars doesn't do it (although it does limit it gently in other ways,such as limiting specific Traits at creation - you can usually buy em later), and I imagine other games don't.

>It limits possible "cheese" and power levels, as OPness generally requires specific combos and if you just limit access, it's limited.
>It makes sure everybody is roughly around the same level (although arguably your points-mechanic should be doing this at least decently-well, right?)
>It makes lists look more "normal" as they might arise "realistically", with a head, a couple sergeants, and a bunch of other people (this feels unnecessary or at least clumsy - why do warbands have to look specific ways? Why can't an all-elite warband exist?)


What are the risks of being more free/open with unit types & limitations if you were to make a similar game?

>>54592233
Might be an expansion to Shadow War that includes new armies and classic gangs. Honestly, it seems like an easy game to expand on.

>>54592377
Generally the more open a game is, the harder it is to balance since there are more possible combinations to worry about, as you mentioned.

It also can be a flavour thing, where you want the game to "feel" a certain way and the implementation of hard caps on certain troop types is the easiest way to achieve this.

>>54592233
They are just fucking with your hopes and expectations, anon. Don't believe GW, they are lying even when they are asking.

>>54592417
Quite frankly SW:A's campaign system is fucking horrible. If they make a Necromunda expansion (which would be nice, I admit), fixing that is a must. Speaking of which, I should paint up some more scootybootymen and play a couple more games, it was somewhat fun when we tried it when the game came out...

>>54592434
After a while you just say "fuck it", and don't mind about balance, just try to put whatever you want into your game, and the players will hopefully pick up the intention and play it more as a narrative game than a tournament game. If they feel it's OP or broken, houserule it, or agree among them to limit its usage or something. The games the other anon mentioned are...between the two I'd say. But I guess it's to make the warbands/armies a bit more believable (more grunts than elites, as in real life).

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Bump

>>54591957
Any suggestions? I've been struggling with it for a while, and this is the closest I've gotten with something I'm happy with without it becoming to convoluted or deolving into dice spam.

The weight of the stats is heavy, but I think the scale would balance it. For example, if a game only had 6 models, it would be terrible. But I'm looking for much larger forces. An example of what I'm shooting for would be for something like an average Elven force a commander, a blood mage, a Goblin shaman, a unit or 2 of 4 legionnaires, a unit of 6 Goblin slaves or archers, and a unit of 3 bigs things like Bugbears or cavalry, or one big monster like a rhino decurion. Something about 20 models, some large enough to take on a unit themselves.

>>54592377
Balance and theme really are the biggest factors, and I'd say theme outweighs most of the time.

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Bump until whatever timezone is awake right now takes up the strain

>>54592678
that's the wrong philosophy though, you should aim at creating a balanced product and if peopel want to go crazy they can, doesn't matter how non competitive the game is, it should be somewhat balanced, it's not liek you can't agree with your oppoentn to remove army limitations.

>>54595189
this is getting to a very complex place:
of course having one armour or one power more is going to be a huge deal, but the fact that you can support means that having for example two goblins instead of a good soldier is going to be very good too, because supports seem to work very well too. It can work and it's pretty interesting, but that sounds like nightmare to balance, not only because it's hard to balance, but also because i believe a very small error might result in horrible results here, you will have to work very well on the formula for point costs.
Also i don't have any suggestion really, i would just say go for it if you feel liek it, but keep in mind this is goign to be a challenge.

>>54598668
Point costs are always hard to get right. The biggest parts I need to account for is that you'll pay for the unit as a whole, not individually. This'll allow for some fine tuning that individual model costs wouldn't allow, two units of 6 models costing 55 vs. 60, instead of each one going 9 vs. 10, giving 54 vs. 60.

I'm also hoping that the need to hit helps with the weight on armor and power. You can dump all 6 goblins into one attack to guarantee a wound, but if you have a hard time getting past the defense, it won't matter. I still need to do a LOT of math crunch and testing, but I'm hoping to hit a nice point where you'd consider making the attacks separately; the Goblins go after an Elven gladiator, lightly armored but highly skilled. That extra power from supporting might not be as useful as the extra rolls to hit.

Some other things I an thinking about also limit the effectiveness of supporting, such as I want to limit it to things that both models could attack. You won't be piling 6 Goblins on one guy unless he's completely surrounded, at which point he should have a disadvantage. Also rules to encouraging moving in combat. Moving into a model's back arc helps hit, but can hurt you ability to support unless in a really good position.

>>54600068
of course it can work, just sayign it might be a very unforgiving experience. I never liked set units sizes, but that can definitely help balancing.

>>54598225
Why is spooky skeleton dress up fun always so great?

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*BZZZT* *BZZT*
Targets sighted, moving to engage.

A bit of progress on my Cybertronic, my front line robots(Machinators, Exterminateurs, Oppresseur) will be getting the ceramic treatment for their armour plates, while my more stealthy and commanding sort of robots(Enhanced Machinators, Attila Mk.3s) will be getting a tacticool matte black look with some poisonous and dangerous looking eye lights and shit.

Battle Report soon!

How would you guys rate the USEME system?

>>54598256
I agree, the aim should be that, but after a point you need to decide what's more important - perfect balance, or more options.

>>54600957
definitely a good basecat(or maybe you alreayd put some highlights?, hard to tell if you went for subtle highlight or it's the light), are you leaving it pure white with highlights and shodows, or do you plan on adding colour variance?

>>54601245
I remember that!

It's OK.

I don't play it any more, but I had a few fun games with... I forget, post-apoc and the spaceship one, think I played fantasy too. It's an OK light system.

>>54601663
Thanks mate. The squad is just basecoated so far, in fact as of writing this I'm just touching up the ceramics with a bit more rakarth flesh because some of my grey/black mix got on the armour. I'll be hitting them with a brown wash, army painters Strong Tone wash(same as old devlan mud) and then layering up with pallid wych flesh mixed with the smallest amount of a pale brown.

When that's all done going to be adding camo splotches in earthy reds and browns to match the mars table and terrain of mine. It's going to look good, I hope.

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It's "Bring Out Your Lead" 2017 this weekend, the main Oldhammer event of the year. Bryan Ansell of GW fame hosts it at Foundry Miniatures, in his stately home.

There's some really interesting pictures on the Facebook group. I promised myself I would go but I guess it will have to wait another year...

>>54601245
>>54602203
I'm unfamiliar with that system, reckon one of you could give me a rundown on it?

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>>54603326

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>>54603335

p10 bump

>>54603326
>Bring Out Your Lead
Gave me a sensible chuckle

>>54598225
I love the models for Cutlass, but I just wish they would have made a few different choices with the rules.

>>54600957
God damn I love these guys. I really want to start a Cyber army but fuck me if I can find WZ:R models anywhere in the states these days.

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>>54606292
>I love the models for Cutlass, but I just wish they would have made a few different choices with the rules.
You could just use the models for another game.
Arcworlde has undead pirates too, though I can't say I've ever played the game.
An historical set of rules for the period could work too, Blood and Plunder is all new and shiny atm, and the Warhammer historical one is pretty popular too from what I hear.

Who know, maybe Ghost Archipelago will give you an excuse to use them too.

pic is completely unrelated, just been thinking about Rogue Stars again lately.
Kind of a shame that the models not even nearly capture the style of the artworks in the book.

>>54592233
It's going to be just a plug about the upcoming Necromunda: Underhive PC game.

>>54603335
Haha that's weird as fuck, that's me in the photo sitting down eating.

It was a fantastic event and anyone who wants to go should definitely try next year.

Games played were almost all classic GW stuff but there was some more obscure stuff there, like Dark Future and a massive game of Space Fleet.

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Has anyone here played Scrollhammer 2E? Thoughts?

>>54603322
devlan mud on white? Aren't you better off just glazing the shadows?

>>54592678
they posted a picture on their community site, for their "rumour engine"

and it's an old lasgun that looks like the necromunda models

they community team confirmed on facebook that it is a lasgun

>>54609754
They also said new IG models are coming...

>>54610056
why would new IG use an antiquated lasgun design?

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This is not a Test is a great game. I really hope it does well, as I suspect the official fallout game will fall short outside of the models

>>54610896
They talk much about the mechanics of it yet?

>>54571730
you're fucking dumb if you think miniatures is an expensive hobby

go look into airsoft, skydiving, and form of RC vehicles (especially some of the more extreme ones like RC drift racing where you spend $2000 on a shell and when your car flips the turn it explodes because it's resin, time to go buy another)

Just because you're poor doesn't mean miniatures are expensive

>>54610896
moar pic

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Skeleton for SoBaH. Plan on getting some zombies and something to use as a vampire next time I can get to the hobby shop.

>>54611722
This isn't a really argument. Just because there things that are more expensive, doesn't negate the fact miniature gaming is still expensive.

>>54613954
"I got a BONE to pick with you!" - Skeleton.

>>54614102
Well the term expensive is a relative one, so its perfectly valid to say that something is not expensive if it is cheaper than alternative products.

Miniature wargaming is a cheap hobby by most standards.

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>>54614112
Guess what I'm gonna paint on the next one

>>54614199
I look forward to it.

>>54611722
It is expensive compared to other hobbies. $50 for a book that'll be outdated and need to be replaced with another $50 book in two years is silly. Paying $30 for a box of unbuilt, unpainted toy soldiers is silly.

Just because something else is more expensive doesn't make miniatures gaming not expensive. Yeah golf is expensive as hobbies go, and I could easily spend a grand on a new set of clubs. How does this somehow make miniatures gaming not expensive in its own sense?

That's like saying a Nissan Altima isn't expensive at $20k when a Lambo is $100k and up.

>>54614583
>It is expensive compared to other hobbies. $50 for a book that'll be outdated and need to be replaced with another $50 book in two years is silly. Paying $30 for a box of unbuilt, unpainted toy soldiers is silly.
It's really not. You have to put it into perspective.
30$ is an evening in the bar/club or whatever. Compared to how many hours of entertainment you get out of a box of unbuilt, unpainted toy soldiers that is a pretty good deal.
Even moreso if you compare it to what going to the movies costs these days.

And as for the books, well you could buy a small handful of paperback novels with 50 bucks maybe, but you are gonna read them once and put them away. So getting to use a book for two years is not THE worst deal.

Granted if you look at the GW model of BRB, Codex and expansion all for ~50 bucks that's a joke. But most games give you the rules for free these days and the 50 bucks go straight into a faction starter, which is all you need to play a proper game in most cases.

Same goes for sports. If you buy a new pair of running shoes it's gonna cost ~100$ and you DO have to replace that every year too.

I mean it's not for free, that goes without saying, but compared to a lot of other things we take for granted as pasttime/entertainment it's relatively cheap.

It's kind of like saying miniature wargaming is the Nissan Altima of hobbies. Most people don't buy the Lamborgini either, but compared to an evening at a bar, which most people do enjoy from time to time, it's still cheap.

>>54614809
>well you could buy a small handful of paperback novels with 50 bucks maybe, but you are gonna read them once and put them away.
That's dependant on the person. I re-read stuff.

I'm not trying to say miniatures gaming is the most expensive hobby out there, but to call it a cheap hobby is a bit misleading. I have other hobbies that can be way more expensive(golf, guitar and video games), but it'd be foolish to say that since those are MORE expensive hobbies that it makes miniatures gaming somehow not expensive in its own right.

>>54614897
>but it'd be foolish to say that since those are MORE expensive hobbies that it makes miniatures gaming somehow not expensive in its own right.
As I said. If you put it into perspective to what most people consider to be 'normal' hobbies it weights in at the cheaper end on average. At least that would be my assessment.
Of course it depends on how you do it.

If I only play skirmish games with 15mm minis from the 80s it's gonna cost almost nothing. If I buy my plastic crack from GW direct and buy into the latest craze I may have to sell off one of my kidneys.
But the same thing goes for videogames or any other example. If you only buy during a steam sale and nothing more expensive than 5 bucks you still have access to tens of thousands of games. Or you could buy the newest triple A shit the second it comes out and update your cutting edge gaming rig at the same time.

When I was a teenager I felt like miniature wargaming was expensive too.
As an adult I know now how much my fucking rent costs, that puts it somewhat into perspective.

As I said, all relative.

are there any youtube channels which have good mid to high quality kings of war battle reports?

>>54615368
GMG has been doing some lately.

>>54614897
>I have other hobbies that can be way more expensive(golf, guitar and video games)

So now we're at the fucking root of the problem

Miniatures aren't expensive you're just a bastard who doesn't want to spend money on them.

Which is fine. People are free to spend money on what they want. But just because you don't want to spend money on wargaming doesn't mean wargaming is expensive.

You're welcome to spend $70 on the hot new game only for it to be dead in a couple of weeks. I'll be over here playing games with miniatures that are 10 years old and aren't obsolete.

>>54615421
yeah but not only does ash use the ugly mantic ogre models he always smashes whoever he is against he's got 18 videos and the same units are in all of them, I'd like something fresh

>>54615018
Why do you seem to have this impression that I'm poor? I can afford my rent, food, bills and gaming hobby with the only lean times being if I miss work due to being sick.

>>54615432
I ha e no qualms spending money on games and models. If I did I wouldn't be here in the first place. I love wargaming, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of the hobby at the same time.

I spend plenty of money on movies and books, and I'm critical of those industries as well no matter how much I enjoy them.

>>54615506
emoji movie am I right?

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Building some Knights, have yet to decide what to do with them.

>>54615452
For some reason, I read it was Wrath of Kings, not Kings of War. I do that a lot.

Yeah, his KoW vids aren't that great. Haven't watched them all, but that's because I'm not all that interested in KoW.

>>54615605
paint them and play Knights and Knaves with them

http://www.hisentco.com/

>>54615850
Cool, will look into playing this with some friends. Thanks

>>54615452
that's because he is a cheater and always tries to exploit rules or cheat on rolls(i actually saw people spam this in one of his videos, can someone explain me where this came from?)

>>54615458
No idea where you got that idea from. I didn't mean to step on your toes.
As I said. Again. All relative and depends on how you do it. Was just trying to put the whole thing into perspective for you, I obviously have on idea what you financial situation is like, nor do I care to be honest. Was not about you.

>>54615605
Fur capes, lanterns and climbing gear and you are good to go for an expedition into the frozen city.

>>54617098
Nice, I'll definitely do some of that. Thanks

>>54610115
They could be 30k IG.

>>54614809
>tfw I spend a maximum of 10$ on a night out
>tfw I usually read novels I get more than once if I like them

My world is twisted.

>>54617363
this, miniatures are my only expense, i only spend around 15 euros a week for the other random shit.
The only people i ever see defendign the price of minis are money wasters.

>>54617536
your only expense?
Do you not have bills? Do you not buy food? Cable? Internet?
>euros
ahh, that explains it.

>>54607514

Aha sorry mate, I took a few off the group and didn't want to include faces.

Would you say it's worth a day if you love the miniatures, but don't play Rogue Trader or Fantasy 3rd edition yourself?

Anyone got more stuff for Relicblade?

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/812arwkvg1is3/Relic_Blade

searching for the thief card

>>54556573
What manufacturer are those skellies from?

>>54623152
Not him but I would guess Baccus

>>54571653
I got to do some testing in. I visited my folks this weekend, and I went through thr basement and found my old WHFB minis. I converted up a quick Wood Elf band, put them up against some dwarves, and had them go up against each other. 4 Elves, 4 Dwarves, and a hyper-abstract "2d6, beat 8 (or 6 if melee-only) to kill". I was more interested in testing the turn structure than anything else.


One wood elf wanted to shoot one dwarf, so another dwarf popped out of cover to double-tap with pistols, leaving a 2nd elf trying to charge with dual swords, leaving a 2nd dwarf trying to double tap with pistols, leaving a 3rd elf trying to move to get a corner shot off, until a rooftop Dwarf interrupted, burning the last 3 CP to take a crossbow shot. The crossbow missed, as did the return shot. The first melee ended up blocking off line-of-fire to the original Elf, while lucky rolling on the Dwarves (combined with some judicious use of 3" steps) led to two Elves being properly minced. The turn ended after that, since there were so few activation or CP left to continue moving.

I'm pretty impressed with the way the game plays out. The CP as a limiting mechanic means you really need to plan your turn out, and the Interrupt Stack means you have to be very careful about both the order you activate your units, as well as how they interrupt; in all, I think it has incredible tactical potential. Once the Interrupt stack was done, the actual combat resolution was very chaotic and messy in a good way. The fact there are almost no "free" actions (seriously, fuck 40k Overwatch) meant the Interrupts weren't actually slowing the game down.

If anyone wants me to help test this on TTS, let me know?

>>54623517
Oops, and I meant to say the 2nd dwarf was actually dual-wielding axes and was attempting to get the charge off.

>>54617765
Are you from the US or the UK?

>>54623601
US. I'm taking a flight back up to NYC tonight.

>>54617536
>miniatures are my only expense
That must be nice. Grass is always greener though - there are lots of things about being that age (that I assume you are) that I definitely don't miss.

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What is the most fun wargame among budget wargaming systems? Not asking just about "official" games - fanmade games based on lego minis, cardboards or salami slices are fine too. I'm looking for something cheap and easy to play - I need a bit of a break from GW stuff

>>54615432
>Miniatures aren't expensive you're just a bastard who doesn't want to spend money on them.
It can certainly be both. I've probably spent several thousand dollars over the years on various tabletop games, terrain and minis. They're not individually that expensive, but it adds up. So, yes, it is an expensive hobby.

Sure, there are more expensive hobbies. I know a guy who builds and races cars for a hobby. He probably spends more on that than I do paying the mortgage for my house. That doesn't mean this hobby is cheap, or that the costs of armies are not a valid subject of discussion.

>>54624614
The problem with this "is miniature wargaming expensive" question is that it ignores the vast variance in what constitutes miniature wargaming.

I could either be collecting multiple armies for a game of Apocalypse or buying 6mm historicals for use in a skirmish game.

Its as expensive as you're willing to go.

Those ASoIaF miniatures from the kickstarter are tickling my fancy since I'm really into 32mm and a good blend of cartoonish and realistic looks.
On the other hand I've avoided kickstarters like the plague. I've heard bad things about CMoN, but their shit also costs a billion dollars, if it hits my LGS at all. Any opinions on that?

>>54624587
>most fun
that is entirely subjective.
Would be easier to answer if you had an idea of what you are looking for.
Anything from Fivecore, SoBH, Rogue Stars, Frostgrave, Tomorrows War, Grunts or whatever else could be fun. Those are mostly skirmish games.
If you want bigger games you'd have to look at different games.
What genre, scale, scope etc are you into?

If you want to wargame with legos or salami sclices you could look into brickwars or the one page rules.

>>54624587
There's a lot of ways you can go with the budget thing:

1) Just proxy. There are many many rules sets (both official and unofficial) available in PDF to check out. Find one you like, and then just proxy it with whatever you have lying around, or print out some paper models to stand in. You can go a long way with this. I know some wargamers who've played for 20+ years with nothing but proxies and papercraft.

2) Play low-model-count skirmish games. A lot of games are comparitively cheap just by virtue of needing very few models. A lot of people on here recommend Frostgrave as a for-instance. Anything in that vein you're going to be able to get into for somewhere south of $100.

3) Go with one of the finer scale games. Small minis tend to be much less expensive than their larger counterparts. Try playing skirmish games at 15mm, or battle games at 3mm - 10mm sizes, and you'll often be able to spend a fraction of the cost of doing the same at the more traditional 28mm. For example, check out the 6mm fantasy stuff here: https://www.microworldgames.com/collections/6mm-fantasy

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>>54624651
>Its as expensive as you're willing to go.
So much this.

>>54624651
That's fair, but in my experience you will spend quite a lot unless you are going out of your way to do the budget route. The average (anecdotal) across all armies and systems is probably somewhere in the vicinity of $100 to get started and another $200 to build out an army or start a new one (US prices). Ballpark of course, 40K and WMH will be a bit higher, Malifaux or Infinity on the lower end. That's not an insane amount of money for most working adults, but it's certainly enough that you're going to stop and give it some serious thought / research before you spend it, even if you're lucky enough to have significant disposable income.

AWG stuff is going to run a little lower, I suspect, but that's mostly a result of a lot more DIY and a willingness to hunt for more obscure and alternate manufacturers. It's still certainly possible to spend a lot. In some projects, for instance when building my army for Epic, I found that the relative difficulty of finding some rarer pieces more than offset the lower average cost of models.

>>54624765
>3mm
How

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>>54625643
Very big battles

>>54624587
One Page stuff is free and you can use the shit you already have lying around.

I also recommend any of the FiveCore games highly.

You can try the Two Hour Wargames rules--they provide two games for free, they all use the same system--but I don't care for them personally.

Hi Anons, do you Horizon Wars in pdf ?
Link I got is not working.
thank you

>>54617363
>tfw I spend a maximum of 10$ on a night out
>buys one beer or 2cl of liquor
>considers it a night out
I hate Sweden, it's expensive here

>>54623152
Microworld games. Front base is wight swordsmen, other bases are skeleton spearmen.

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Spooky bump

>>54624587
dear gods that pic presses every single damn magical realm button I have

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>>54631624
The only thing magical is how plain you are.

>>54624587
I just figured out now, because I'm a fucking idiot, that most mini-games can be done by drawing the map top-down and playing with chits. Finding a sketchbook that scaled well for converting inches to cm took a bit, but it was easy enough in a decent size art supply store. Its been fun to work on and remember I liked drawing too.

Saves space, saves money, I miss converting and painting minis but that's okay. Also if we make notes on the map for movement and combats it ends up resembling a historical wargame tactical map.

Currently playing Pikeman's Lament, works fine. Probably better with games that are a bit looser with formations, haven't tried anything chrunchier yet.

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Would anyone happen to have a pdf of this book? I'm itching to try it.

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Sup tg I'm the dropzone guy. Sitting on the toilet scrolling through catalog

Also a d20 stalker rpg in the works homebrew for this table

>>54581314
>>54581468
>>54582359
>>54582970

I had to do similar stuff when I wanted to get a Battletech group started. I also thought that nobody played. The truth is people had played, but nobody was arsed to leave their house or contact anybody to play it.

Putting up posters at the LGS to recruit people, and generally talking to people in the shop is the first step. Of course, it helps if the LGS actually stocks what you're trying to play

At first, you'll have to do one-on-one contacting, calling/e-mailing people to ask if they want to get a game in. If you can hammer out a regular routine, that will help immensely. If not, you'll pretty much have to stick to the calling/emailing as the only solution until the number of players is big enough that it can sustain itself. That might happen, or it might not. One thing that will help is if you can introduce players to eachother and get them to communicate. I had the bad luck of having players who refused to communicate or start up games with anyone but me. Maybe it was because they were afraid of strangers, didn't want to play with anyone who was uncertain of the rules, or just generally couldn't be arsed, but rather than a network, it was like I was the hub connected to spokes. As a result, when I left the country, the group also ceased to be.

New players are likely to be leery about dropping anything more than maybe $20-$30 for a starting army if they don't see a stable, thriving community, so yeah, you'll likely be stuck having to support other players. Note that there will be some leech types who will never invest a single dollarydoo and treat it as though they were doing you a favor for just showing up. So long as they're not otherwise asshats, keep them around just to boost the numbers of the community, but when the community is able to support it's own weight, it's up to you if you want to continue enabling them.

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>>54634551

Test model for a stalker - I ordered a sick load of pendraken and eBay's micromachines

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>>54634612

And going to sleep. Good read. Just read through it

nonspooky bump

>>54631594
Really like the look of these. Where are they from?

>>54638333
come on man, try reverse searching, otherworld miniatures

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>>54638319
The worst kind of bump.

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>>54555525
What is a good cost-benefit wg to also use for ttrpg on grids?

>>54625643
There are a few manufacturers that do 2mm / 3mm historical (and it's pretty common for naval games to fall around there approx - I think Dystopian Wars is 1/1200 which is about 1.5mm). But really, the way to go these days is 3d printing IMO. Models for larger systems can usually easily be scaled down (with proportionally reduced detail), and there's already a lot out there from various people. For instance:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/KTL8PMNE6/3mm-imperious-guard-ifv-pack-24pcs?optionId=63089562&li=marketplace

>>54634648
I gotta say, dropzone commander turned me on to the idea of using 10mm for modern / scifi, and from the perspective of a treadhead, I absolutely love it. You're still not getting quite to "battle" size unless you play a big multi-table / multi-player game, which is part of the draw of 6mm and smaller. But what it does do is let you get full armoured companies on the table, with support units, but still have enough detail where you can get into specific gear / weapons / markings on each individual tank.

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>>54639739

Sorry for the shit Snapchat picture but fuck yeah man

Wtf 4chan really doesn't like my wifi vpn

>>54634551
>>54634612
>>54634648
Purty

>>54638932
>to also use for ttrpg on grids?
You can basically use your frostgrave and otherworld miniatures collections for dungeons and dragons cause they share a lot of the same creatures in the beastiary and what not.
Just need a grid that you can play on with 28mm minis.

Thinking of picking up Advanced Song of Blades and Heroes, have any of you played it? Thoughts?

>>54642078
More options than SoBaH, personally I like the simplicity of the original, but isn't a bad system at all.
I prefer of god and mortals tough I never play it, it's basically Call of Elysium the wargame.

Any experience with the Judge Dredd Miniatures Game? I feel like getting some stuff for it (mostly old Citadel minis) and try it.

Wonder when will Warlord bring it back tho. It had some lovely minis.

>>54644089
>LONG
>FLOPPY
>BARRELS

>>54644324
idk about the game itself but recently Rebellion and 2000AD renewed their licensing with developers which HOPEFULLY means we get the judge dredd game back at warlord.

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Bumping

>>54644089
Is that barrel supposed to be that bendy on purpose?

>>54650771
Yes, the superior German engineering allows rounds to curve over ridges and around hills in order to demolish cowardly Allied armour hiding out of sight.

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>>54651509
Of course, I'll go perform 20 Hail Rommels as penance for doubting the glory of kruppstahl

>>54632910
sounds interesting, have any pics?

any other systems you'd recommend for something like this?

>>54653494
not him, but it's a simple as fuck concept, have you ever seen vassal40k? If not you can google it and you basically do that.

>>54646218
>>54650771
It doesnt seem bent to me, but the model is resin so straightening it is no problem

>>54621146
Nice, do they sell the minis apart or do you have to raid ebay for them?

>>54639739
Here's a question for the room. I've been doing some 10mm sci-fi, and I'm trying to source a good heavy power armor / light mech model. Something in the same vein as 40K termies or (book version) Starship Trooper armor. For comparison, I'm already using DZC humans as my normal troops (~10mm tall) and Heavy Gear Southern Infantry as my "light" power armored troops (~12mm tall). Probably looking for something right in the neighborhood of a 15mm tall bulky PA human. I'd like to still be able to mount them 3 to a base (40x20) without too much crowding.

I've already tried a couple options that didn't work out as well as I'd hoped. DZC's Hazard Suits are cool looking, but just too small - they're shorter than the HG infantry I'm already using. By contrast, HG's Flails are too large - each is big enough to occupy a 20x20 base on its own.

>>54656661
https://whitedragonminiatures.co.uk/mtu-alpha-fire-team/
These guys are 17mm tall
https://whitedragonminiatures.co.uk/talos-exo-suits/
These ones look more suitable for what you want but are 20mm tall (so pretty huge)

I don't know many small scale manufacturers so I can't really recommend anything else, but hopefully these are at least worth consideration and someone else can help out too.

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>>54656661
how bout these

>>54656740
Looks interesting, I'll check it out. Thanks.

>>54656860
These are very much the right "look" I'm thinking of, really cool looking, but judging by the bases they are probably wayyyy too big. Something in those general proportions, but half the height, would be perfect.

Thanks both, I'll keep looking.

>>54656087
It's a cmon game. So ebay.

Kind of a shame too. They have all these great models sculpted, then produce them in a shitty material and move on to the next kickstarter before the shelf life of the last thing is over.

Terrible business model.

>>54653494
Nothing I think is good enough to show people? We did a few test runs trying to figure out scale/sketch book size. Still not sure if I like isometric or top-down maps more. Top-down is easier for everyone to use, but isometric looks more intuitive for one side.

We're having a game this week though, I'll make it decent and do a short battle-report.

Anything that isn't overly anal about LoS and nothing that's got a lot of vertical should work fine. I was thinking about trying Trench Storm or something 5 core when we get tired of pikes.

>>54555525
Anybody have any zone-based rulesets they particularly like? I'm working on a homebrew system that uses zones, been hunting for ideas on how to handle table setup, LOS, movement, etc.

Bones 4 KS started, and whew lads, this gonna be my first Reaper KS.

I'd suck dicks for proper Warlord support tho, why the fuck they left that game in a ditch?

>>54660551
Deadzone has some good ideas with its grid system. Each part is a 3x3 inch cube of space that models can be placed anywhere in; when moving or measuring range, its by number of cubes, no matter where in the cube it is. And its one of the only TLoS systems I'm ok with, since cover is the base, not an exception. Being out and seen completely is a bonus, instead of the norm with cover being a bonus/penalty.

>>54661942
I thought Bones was just cheap minis for D&D plus derivatives, what was the game it was tied to and where does Warlord come into this?

>>54658380
That shitty boardgame plastic is the bane of my existence. I bought up a bunch of CMoN games and similar at clearance sales and got gifted a box or two and the miniatures would look rad in concept but their execution is fucking terrible.

>>54663336
Warlord is the name of the fantasy game Reaper put out years ago. Its just been kinda there since.

>>54663405
From looking it up, it seems like the game is roughly 19 years old, and kinda generic specifically so its miniatures could accomodate RPGs. What makes you like it enough to want proper support?

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Anybody remember Runewars, FFG's attempt to cash in on the demise of WHFB?

I just looked it up again and holy shit, it's even more expensive than GW. And you even need game specific dice in addition to the minis.

What the hell is going on there? Is anybody even playing this? I basically haven't heard anything about it since it was announced.

>>54664293
>I basically haven't heard anything about it since it was announced
Yep, that seems to be the general sentiment. Even while some hype was building, the most I remember hearing was people saying that they wouldn't mind some of those minis.

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>>54661942
I might drop a couple of bucks on that Chaos Lord looking dude (#13). But other than that I'm not fussed, I'll keep an eye on it in case they get anything cool from stretch goals I guess.

>>54664547
>the most I remember hearing was people saying that they wouldn't mind some of those minis.
Yeah, I was in the same boat, but when I checked the boxes out, you pay 30€ for 8 skeletons from Runewars, I can get 10 skeletons for 20€ from GW.
That's ridiculous.

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There is an Epic General up right now, in case anyone on here is interested

>>54664754

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>>54664293
I've been telling everyone for years that FFG is just as bad as GW, but nobody ever wants to listen.

>>54665015
Far better to be overpriced as a failed niche game than to be overpriced as one of, if not the, biggest names in wargaming. I take your point though.

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>>54665041
Well, in this case the failed niche game cost 150% more for less then the market leader who had the monopoly on fantasy plastic miniatures until a few years ago.
Only one of those two can really afford to put the prices wherever they please. And comparing the skellies now, I think the GW pieces look better too.

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Might be a bit late for this thread, but does anyone happen to have .pdf links for the Frostgrave books? And/or Mordheim?

>>54665158
You're right on every point anon, when it's less expensive to buy GW skellies in Aus than RW skellies in Europe you have a serious pricing problem. My main objection is that while FFG's gouging is more egregious, GW's gouging is far more widespread. I suppose I'm just being a true grognard about GW prices though, since they sit just outside the range of what I'm reasonably willing to pay for minis, whereas FFG and some other companies like Scibor are just not even at the point where I'd consider it.

>>54665227
There is a frostgrave link in the novie trove, but mega asks for an encryption key. I figure you'll have to do a bit of searching to find it, but everything has been shared at one point or another...

Back in the day GW release a pdf version of Mordheim in two or more parts, like they did with GorkaMorka and Inquisitor.
These should be easy to find, since GW made them public themselves.
You should be able to find them with a quick google search.

>>54665477
Yeah, Google has been taking me in circles and to a lot of sites I don't trust. I'll keep digging though.

File: Mordheim 1Rules.pdf (2MB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1x1px

>>54665530
I can dump it for you

File: Mordheim 2Warbands.pdf (1MB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1x1px

>>54665571

>>54665571
That'd be great. I'm actually looking more for the scenarios and campaigns. I'm looking to adapt what I can of them to Shadow War Armageddon. Been getting some fun games of that, but GW just gave it so few scenarios of its own.

File: Mordheim 3Campaigns.pdf (2MB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1x1px

>>54665581

File: WHFB skirmish scenarios.pdf (8MB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

8MB, 1x1px

>>54665586
>I'm actually looking more for the scenarios and campaigns. I'm looking to adapt what I can of them to Shadow War Armageddon
In that case have this also

>>54665695
Thanks anon, I don't care what anyone says, you're a cool guy.

>>54665695
Fuck this takes me back, I remember playing the troll cave game in my school club back in the day.

>>54664684
Yeah, the prices are more than I think are justified. I get that they have the models, cards, tokens movement tool and all that jazz, but if they were even like $5-10 cheaper for the unit boxes I would certainly be more tempted to play. The rules themselves are fine, I like Terrinoth from playing other games there and I think the models are alright(not great, but certainly not the worst I've seen).

>>54663652
It has a cool ruleaet with imaginative rules and mechanics that give it a lot of flavor.

>>54665695
>7.73MB pdf
>372 pages
There must be some seriously masterful optimisation behind this

>>54665939
There's quite a lot of blank and broken pages.

>>54666033
The way it is formatted there are a few blank pages after some scenarios, but I don't have a single broken page in there.

>>54666078
Turns out it was a problem with the way Firefox was displaying the double-width pages. When I actually downloaded it and opened in Acrobat it was fine.

>>54661942
Welcome to Bones KS! The ride never ends. Also, people will say its not as good as Bones 1 KS, but Bones 1 KS was insane.

Warlord gets lots of support if you are in the immediate vicinity of Reaper HQ. They stopped pushing it hard to focus on making minis and launch Bones.

It's nice to see this general hit bump limit two threads in a row

I'm proud of you guys

>>54666432
Alright we made it past the bump limit and we are on page 10

Time to move on
>>54666721
>>54666721
>>54666721