Would a character based around brainwashing villains into doing

>>54546410
Its fairly lame and one-note.

>>54546410
He'd be the anti-hero the other heroes and the villains would work against.

>>54546704
If he is really trying to be good, would they?

I could see the villains attacking him. But even the most goody-two shoes hero would have a hard time fighting a dude who is genuinely trying to help people.

>>54546410
He would need to be sneaky. First, to avoid getting murdered by sneaking into a super-villain lair and hypnotizing them. And then to avoid being found out by those who want to know why Lord Spinefucker is suddenly using his skullripping strength for good.

>>54546893
Lord skullbreaker might be a little out of his league.

Right now he pays mercenary villains to do good things, anonymously.

Then he brainwashes catburglers serial killiers, people who live for crime.

He kills people who are too far gone for brainwashing, like the joker.

Or he will

>>54546410
>>54547207
Somewhere in Neutral Good territory maybe.
>THE LAW ISNT ENOUGH WE NEED TO FIX THEM
Oh the fun stories that come from a righteous tyrant
>BBEG is former good guy
>not fallen but successful

everyone loves that shit

>>54546410
Identity Crisis was dumb and bad

What is evil, anyway? Is there reason to the rhyme? Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes!

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>>54546750
>>54546410
Depends on how you define "brainwashing".
If a hero sets up a rehabilitation facility for super villains that encourages reflection on their prior habits, provides therapy for any destructive traumas they may have suffered, and teaches empathy then really you're just a very specialized prison warden/rehab clinic. The villains can always reject the teachings, and keep being shitheads (who are safely locked up).
If you're straight up altering their personality and removing their ability to make choices of their own free will, you're getting into villain territory. It's basically "A Clockwork Orange": stripping someone of their right to choose between good and evil is inhumane, even if it's done with the best intentions. It also gets into some fun slippery slope territory. After all, if you start out just removing a villain's negative impulses to make them more perfect, why not expand that to the civilian populace? You could have the brainwasher's ultimate goal to create a placid utopia full of kind-hearted ubermensch who are utterly incapable of moral choice that he doesn't approve of.
Could be a fun anti-villain actually.

Go read Superman: Red Son and let me know.

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Basically Pic related
>His shitty dead beat dad always told him to laugh off tragedy instead of dealing with it
>Believes everything should be done with smiles
>Encounters people who fight for reasons other than fun
>Appeals to their hedonistic side until they betray people, careers, and their life's work to join his cult of smiling
>Nobody ever sees a problem with this
>he is treated as the hero and morally right the entire time
Like always, yugioh is fucked up if you read a little into it.

>>54546410
Yes but the prison-industrial complex doesn't want reformed criminals, it wants profitably imprisoned criminals and so capitalist propaganda will be used to turn people against Captain Brainwash and make people unironically believe this legendary figure of redemption and goodness is 'bad'

Of course they'll give other reasons like 'muh freedom of the mind' or 'uh mind control is like gross and bad but prison is good mmmkay' or 'changing who someone is is like killing and only the state can kill people because its monopoly on violence is moral and not a machiavellian result of centuries of power plays'
but of course, the truth is that Captain Brainwash threatens the wallets of the rich, and that can't stand. RIP Captain Brainwash.

>>54548843
So the only way to write the corrupt prison complex as right is to have someone who literally brainwashes people

>>54549550
Nope. The only way to solve the problem if you don't have the ability to redesign the corrupt prison system from the ground up is to brainwash people to remove both the underlying mental disorder most likely responsible for the initial incarceration, as well as to undo all the damage done in the prison system designed to force them into relapsing to crime and getting arrested again.

This still doesn't fix the fact that they'll still struggle to make ends meet financially, forever. Because nobody wants to hire ex cons, and background checks are not criminal record checks, so even a pardon is irrelevant, and background checks are legal.

>>54546750
>But even the most goody-two shoes hero would have a hard time fighting a dude who is genuinely trying to help people.
Brainwashing people is fucked up. They're gonna be super pissed

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>>54546410
Sure.

>>54546410
There are a good number of fictional heroes whose strong sense of mercy, respect, and goodwill ends up turning many of their adversaries into allies.

One example would be a character like Kenshin Himura (from Rurouni Kenshin), whose story and personal struggle for redemption inspires many people who consider themselves "bad guys" to throw in the towel and try out the whole virtue thing. I mean you'd need really consistent RP and the campaign's theme to be all about redemption and repentance, but it could be pretty satisfying to legitimately change people instead of just killing them.

Character is a psychologist. He got framed and sent to prison. In prison he spent time watching people do wholesome stuff, such as arts and crafts.

During this time the character was proven innocent and sent back out into the world. He instead took a job as a prison psychologist, where he discovered that he had a knack for brainwashing.

He spent these years curing inmates of their reasons to do crime, and was successful with curing mental illnesses.

One day he was watching the news and discovered that a super powered serial killer had killed hundreds of people, on this day he realized that he could help that much more people.

He set out to capture and cure villains of their reason to fight.

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>>54551822
Oh yea his costume is an explorer outfit fitted with a mask.

He uses a big rifle fitted with tranquilizer bullets, and chains

>>54548595
Hm, how about tailored Mark of Justice then? They have choice to commit crimes or not, yet unable to cheat system or escape consequences.

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>>54546410
So, you never heard of Doc Savage, huh?

Surgically removed the parts of people's brains that made them do evil.

>>54552180
So he's a lobotomist.

>>54546750
>taking away freedom
>good

>>54551892
Oh no.

>>54553035
You see it's a very utilitarian arguement.

If I take freedom from one person, that's bad. But if I take freedom from a person taking freedom from people, isn't that good? Isn't that prison?

>>54546410
Brainwashing is badong, so no.

>>54553272
Utilitarianism is degenerate.

>>54546410
>is he good?
More like slightly good neutral. It's a misguided attempt that torments the villains needlessly but uses them for good. I also bet it will end poorly.
Suddenly something breaks his powers and villains all over the world go on a rampage as the people trust them.

>is it a cool idea
Nah. Sounds like it would be boring fast. A hero with some limited mind control powers would be cool.

>>54546410

Wasn't that a Captain Planet story once?

>>54553388
The great thing about gurps brainwashing, is that it is conditioning. Meaning that their is no off switch, to break my powers you would have to have another brainwasher.

And it adds or subtracts mental disadvantages, so that serial killer I found. He's no longer a pyschopath, has a phobia of blood, feels really guilty about everything he's done, and cannot kill or harm innocents.

He's good, but in an extremely practical sense

>>54553563
ludovico'd

>>54546410
If one wants to be slightly more ethical, give them a choice to die or be brainwashed. At least then they can choose how their ego would die.

>>54553889
That's actually a good idea.

Guys, would it be smarter to kill the really bad villains?


I'm worried that's an edge lord thing to say, but it seems like the most humane thing to do

You cannot be 'good' and brainwash anyone

>>54554135
Why not?

>>54554135
If you can kill it and stay good, you can brainwash it.

Oh gods, I had a screencap of that 'Sanctify the Wicked' spell. I seem to have lost that thing.

>>54554135

>implying superheroes are good

>>54547207
>>54546410
What gives him the right to decide who is evil enough to be brainwashed, how deep the brainwashing goes, or if someone is too far gone and must be killed?

A lot of superheroes have the issue of wielding their power having questionable moral ramifications.
That's why they tend to stick to Crime Prevention, Criminal Apprehension, and Saving Lives.

"Heroes" that decide to be judge, jury, and executioner can be very effective Crimefighters, but it becomes much harder to call them a "hero" or "good".

No, violating minds and free will in order to instill your personal perception of what is "good" is not generally a Good thing.
Saving someone who is about to be killed by a serial killer by doing something that is not generally a Good thing, is a Good thing, if there wasn't a better choice.

Could it be a cool idea for a superhero?
It's a solid note with possible range in a couple directions.
Needs work.

>>54554201
This is a good metric.

There is killing a bad guy to save a life, or in battle, and then there's murdering the bad guy because you can.

>>54554669
If you have caused more suffering than the suffering of brainwashing, then you will be brainwashed.

So people who have killed many people will be considered.

>>54554669
But supers really only go two routes: imprison or kill. Obviously imprisoning them is "best" if they can actually be reformed and not become joker-tier liability but killing isn't a BAD option. The 3rd way of being a villain in the name of good is... something. Worth exploring.

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Because altering someone's mind and letting him be the punching bag for the younger heroes doesn't backfire, does it?

>>54554736
That's why I'm considering this>>54554092

But it seems kind of edgelordy

>>54554708
>If you have caused more suffering than the suffering of brainwashing, then you will be brainwashed.
Ah.
Good thing that suffering is such an objective and easily quantifiable measure then.
No problems there.

>>54554710
>but killing isn't a BAD option
Not all killing, no.
Deciding who gets to live and who gets to die, kinda is though.

>The 3rd way of being a villain in the name of good is... something. Worth exploring.
Yeah.
But it is exploration into grey territory, not good.
Which can be fine, but OP specifically asked if it was good.

It's the kind of character that might start off murky morally, but once they find their footing, becomes a force of good.

>>54552180
But he couldn't surgically remove that widow's peak that dips so low it forms a unibrow?

>>54554957
Killing someone is removing all choice from someone, crossing that line is grounds for brainwashing.

People that haven't killed don't get brainwashed, a burgler has barely impacted someone's freedom, so I don't impact theirs. They still go to jail, but that is besides the point.

>>54555040
That's why his aim is so good.

He's got a natural archers cap

>>54546410
Good is relative, so it's a pointless question. Some will call such a character good and some won't and neither side will have any basis for judgment other than emotion.

Personally, I think it would be more interesting for a character to keep villains on the level not through super-science but through constant abuse, threats, and psychological torture. Like, since there are only so many superpowered people in the world and every one of them is needed to keep the world from falling apart, you can't waste any one of them by keeping them in jail or a mental hospital. So if there's a villain with useful powers you get him on your side by holding everyone and everything he loves hostage, constantly putting him through public humiliation, maybe getting him addicted to something, and breaking him down in every other way you can think of until he'll do whatever you want for nothing more than the reward of being left alone for a few minutes.

>>54554135
Belief in an absolute good is brainwashing.

There is no natural evidence to support its existence.

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>>54546410
There is literally nothing wrong with that

>>54555069
>People that haven't killed don't get brainwashed, a burgler has barely impacted someone's freedom, so I don't impact theirs.
So, you're changing the idea?
>>54547207
>Then he brainwashes catburglers serial killiers, people who live for crime.

It's good to work out the concept first.

>>54555180
There is no evidence to support the non-existence of absolute Good or absolute Evil.

It remains unproven belief in either direction you choose to believe.

>>54555298
There is no proof I've chosen.

>>54555329
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

>>54555248
You see the difference is that one, a desperate burgler is doing crime for personal gain. Whereas someone who has a theme(like say cats) is doing crime for crime.

The burgler will stop doing crime if his circumstances change. The phantom thief won't stop stealing because they like stealing.

>>54555198
>brainwashed soldiers by the dozen
>soldiers get un-brainwashed with a flick of his enemy's hand
"Bright Lord" indeed.

What about non-permanent brainwashing suggestions to get people to turn against crime/towards whatever good? Can you order them to seriously consider being a good guy for an hour til some spell/ability duration is up and have it stick at all?

>>54555379
That was merely a prototype

Nothing can go wrong this time

>>54555387
Well right now I'm considering just making it really uncomfortable to comit their crimes

Like removing a serial killers pyschopathy or blood lust. As well as adding a phobia of blood.

Or making a phantom thief have a phobia of the darkness, or curing them of kleptomania.

>>54555361
>The burgler will stop doing crime if his circumstances change. The phantom thief won't stop stealing because they like stealing.
>>54555069
>People that haven't killed don't get brainwashed

As long as this all gets sorted out.

>>54555473
So some Clockwork Orange type stuff

>>54555491
He's not going to be going around brainwashing all the petty criminals, but if you steal every cat related statue in the city, he might consider stepping in.

>>54555542
My Good hero might try to stop your hero, eventually.
If, you know, I had one.

>>54555491
>>54555542
Basically if you like crime enough to have a theme, then you are worth looking into.

>>54555578
Why he's just making people scared of stupid stuff and/or curing mental illness.

Instead of giving out bandages, he's makeing sure less people get cut

>>54555710
He's causing mental illness and permanently messing with people's minds as he deems fit.
No judge, no jury of peers, not even a real code he's following.
He is power unchecked, doing whatever he wants, to whoever he wants.
I will stop him.

"...but I got to go stop a rampaging killer robot right now, so I'll be back for you."

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>>54546410
You can make it work if you know what are you doing.

>>54556213
What Shinsou does is completely different. He's controlling what you do, not what you think. And even then, it's only temporary.

>>54556240
It's close enough

>>54556240
thats why i was asking >>54555387

What can you make someone DO to shape the way they think? Some serious conditioning shit that maybe will have a lasting effect?

>Pain trigger when committing crime
>Pleasure trigger when earning stuff legitimately
repeat til it sticks?

>>54546410
Depends on the tone of the setting. Sounds like a good anti-hero.

>>54556283
Too easy to get around, and relative to the target's idea of what is and isn't "legitimate."

No, to make a villain truly act like a hero, you have to inhibit the villain's ability to think proactively. Only villains act on their own initiative; heores react to shit the villains do, obey authority, and preserve the status quo. So you have to condition a repentant hero-in-training not to do anything unless specifically ordered to do so by a superior. The pain, shame, and other forms of punishment come out early and often, not just in response to the occasional robbery but even when they scratch their nose without permission. This may mean that they require a little more supervision than before, but the end result is a perfectly standard superhero.

>>54556778
Literal slave mentality, lawfags gtfo. If you need army of standard heroes, just use cloning or something.

>>54557029
>Just clone them

Oh man you just made an awesome superhero

>>54546750
The most evil people in the world genuinely thought they were doing good

>>54551056
>>54556213
Came here to post this.

>>54546639
So are most superheroes, if you're honest. Come on, captain america, whos superpower is patriotism or superman, or batman, the "detective" who punches things or always has anti-anything gadgets ready?

>>54546410
I'd say morally grey, but one could work with the theme... anti-hero, just don't make it a dark & brooding character

>>54557221
Well this is the character
>>54551822

>>54557029
If you think that way, then you're fine with supervillains remaining just the way they are and so the question isn't for you.

Dragon age and 40k sort of touch on this by making criminals into mindless slaves

>>54553035
>thinking they had freedom to begin with