Tell me /tg/. Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The

>>54520699
Because the more children a woman has, the less gestational testosterone the subsequent children have. As a result, the oldest child is the fittest and manliest, while the youngest is a weak little girly man.

>>54520735
Also experience, he lived longer and is therefore wiser.

Also expectations of inheritance, so he is groomed for leadership.

>>54520699
I would be your waifu Renly

>>54520735
Then why are the firstborn sons of modern Western women often so weak and girlish? Is it a result of society, or does the lessening of gestational testosterone occur for women on the Pill (as it can be said conception occurs, it just never sticks to the uterine wall.)

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Renly was so grievously miscast

>>54520699
The point of having a clear line of succession is to avoid the kind of arguments that lead to wars.

>>54521272
What's wrong with him, except that his hairdo doesn't look very medieval?

>>54521330
He's supposed to look like a young Robert

>Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted?

So we won't have to have a bloody civil war every fucking generation to figure out who the crown should go to.

>>54520699

Because when you've got a few years on the others you can smother the little usurpers before they can take you in a fight, so you might as well to avoid kinstrife.

>>54520699
because ye's a fackin poofter ya soft cunt, now fack off

>>54520699
renly's more suited for life in a pillow house of lys than on the Iron Throne

>>54521852
>>54521896
this. Renly was too soft and immature, he would have been an awful king

>>54520735
>>54520804 It's nowhere near as strong as he is implying and other factors can be far more important.

>>54520769
you ar3 a man though

>>54521362

So find a picture of the actor who played Robert when he was in his twenties, though he also needs to be ripped and sexy.

Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Getting Killed By A Shadow Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Light A Candle Like Nigga Turn On The Lights

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What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be king

>>54522600
kek

Because anything which isn't a clear rule will lead to an inevitable civil war. See, e.g., Game of Thrones and the giant power struggle that took place as soon as "oldest son" got called into question.

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>>54523084
Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife’s brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I’ll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me-freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won’t survive the first charge of my vanguard

>>54520699
bc ur gay dude lol

>>54523492
Makes me want a peach.

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>>54520699
There is only place for a head that bears a crown, and that is at the bottom of my basket. We will forge a new destiny, one without kings or lords, one where the will of the people is guided toward a singular purpose.

>>54523492
Tenly theirs a reason laws a fucking in place
Just fucking kill the lannisters with your brother than hash this out instead of causing a stupid fucking war for no reason and make everyone suffer

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>>54523613
>one without kings or lords
Is there room for a little corporal perchance?

>>54523702
It would have possibly made sense if we were given much reason for Stannis' unpopularity. It mostly just seemed like Robert didn't like Stannis because Stannis kept telling him to stop whoring, so everybody just followed along with it to stay on Robert's good side. I mean Renly's war was basically just the Tyrells desperately trying to get something on the throne, but it never really addressed just how they made Stannis so unpopular since the only things he was really known for was fighting Ironborn

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Because primogeniture is the most stable form of inheritance in a medieval society formed out of the descendants of warlords, where customs such as this is what keeps them from going back to fighting eachother.

And also Stannis would make a much better king than he is because winter is here and Westeros needs a stern and just ruler and not a useless, flamboyant faggot.

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>>54520699
Because if inheritance of titles and land holdings were a judgement call, then every single time a noble died without SPECIFICALLY naming one of their children the heir, there would be a crisis of inheritance, and each such crisis almost inevitably leads to skirmishes or war proportional to the magnitude of the title and holdings in question. An astonishingly high number of things in the medieval world that make no sense otherwise were enshrined purely to prevent inheritance-crises and the conflicts that come with them. If the system of determining an heir is an autistically procedural flowchart, then there is no crisis... just a lot of people with titles who weren't the best choice. Plus, the first-born is always specifically groomed TO take the title, and recieves the best training available, so it's only an issue when he dies young or his retarded nature is too overpowering for even the best nurture. From a maintaining-order and maintaining-the-status-quo perspective, having not infrequent ill suited title-holding-nobes is preferable to constant open warfare every time someone with a title dies unexpectedly.

>>54523872
Stannis was a prick when he was on Robert's council. He tried to ban prostitution and (iirc) alcohol, was a bastard about making sure debts were paid and spending was kept minimal, and was generally unpleasant to everyone around him.

Politics is as much a game of popularity as anything else, Stannis made himself unpopular with the elite of Westeros.

>>54524031
Man, if stannis hadn't brought in mel the faith would back the fuck out of him
Also stannis sounds like he was fucking up littlefingers possible debt scheme so that would be a reason for why the more serious nobles don't like him

>>54524242
Stannis Baratheon and considers him to be uniquely stern.
The reason has to do with the way that his personality is perceived. For the Westerosi nobility, flattery is a hallmark of class status. To not engage in this absolutely crucial social custom is seen as an egregious error, at the least, and an affront upon all the other lordings, at the most – a crime which Stannis is guilty of committing time and again.
More than disengaging from social custom, however, the would-be king has a resolute moral code which grates against noble mores and threatens institutions that the elite patronize, particularly legalized prostitution. While the smallfolk in King’s Landing also utilize prostitutes and brothels, the nobility has better access and, more importantly, better means to afford such a service. But Stannis sees prostitution as a moral blight that needs to be stamped out.

>>54524242
Early in the series the faith is a pretty weak power base. Only after a long period of making life significantly worse for everyone who doesn't live in a castle and Cersi making a particularly dumb decision do they ever really gain influence

>>54520699
How would a Stannis-Renly alliance turnout

>>54524242
>Also stannis sounds like he was fucking up littlefingers possible debt scheme
He was. Stannis was the only one paying attention to that shell game.

>>54525769
Well Stannis easily could have gotten just as fucked up on the blackwater, but having that many more troops would have probably changed their strategy in the first place. It's kind of iffy

>>54523492
>Tyrell
The Tyrells are a bunch of know-it-all pretty boys/girls that think they are the golden children of Westeros.

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Why do people keep on insisting Renly would have made a good king

>>54521330
Have you seen Euron clothing in episode 2

>>54526347
Even with the Blackwater Stannis still would have taken Kings Landing if the Reach hadn't arrived at the 11th hour to reinforce the city.

>>54529641
Which ia fucking bullshit, deus ex machina

>>54520804
Older mothers, the pill, bad maternal health and diet, xenoestrogens.

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>>54520735
The only thing excessive gestational testosterone induces is hypertension and early heart failure. Read one goddamn book on human biology, you rampant fuckwit.

>>54521852
Wilfrid here may have only four teeth, seven bastard children, and the gout, but his is the true voice of the common man.

Renly didn't have the mettle to be king, and everyone would have known it, prince to beggar.

>>54520699
>le fat pink mast shitting brown water man XD

Can you take your reddit tier setting back there?

>>54529899
Shhh, anon, you'll shatter his fragile ego if you tell him he isn't actually more of a macho manly man than his younger brother.

>>54530544
I bet if this was Stannis you would be fawning over him

>>54528350
Idiots think that looks are more important than smarts. Hail Stannis

>>54524031
>ban prostitution
Fucks up Littlefinger.
>makes sure debts are paid
Fucking with Littlefinger's plans to ruin everything.
>makes sure spending stays minimal
Fucking with Littlefinger's plans to ruin everything.

Unpopular or not, I wonder if there was some 20/20 hindsight going on after the fact and when everything went to shit.

>>54522406
He would have been a fine enough puppet King under the Tyrells, just like Robert was under the Lannisters.

>>54526347
With a Stannis-Renly alliance the Tyrells probably wouldn't have jumped in with the Lannisters, and Robb might've focused more on occupying Tywin.
King's Landing would've most likely fallen.

>>54531631
God damn george wanting to have a edgy series

>>54520699
Because you're based on the idiot who got himself drowned in a barrel of wine for blatant treason, and have about as much foresight.

>>54523702

Yea that's why he'd make a terrible king. He can't even settle this totally-his-fault disagreement through diplomacy. Stannis is the rightful king by all the laws of gods and men, and Renly would have been his heir. Instead he plays at war and lets men die for his vanity.


Also something about the knights of summer.

>>54533300
Really?

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>>54522600

Underrated post

>>54533300
What was the guys name

>>54520699
Stannis offered to make him his heir. Why didn't he agree to an alliance, let his brother do all the hard work of actually winning the war, then get him assassinated? Nobody would mourn for Stannis.

>>54529672
>>54531560
Again Littlefinger went to Bitterbridge and brought/bought the Tyrells. To kill Stannis.

So Stannis is the enemy of le edgy ladder man. Who you gonna choose for you're leader.

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>>54523613
>>54523791
>Kings are horrible and if you bend the knee to them you're pathetic
>Emperors are awesome and an empire is merely a more autocratic continuation of a republic
mfw I believe this unironically

>>54536271
That's a really good point. Pride? I guess?

>>54536271
Because Renly didn't want to wait and thought he will make short work of Stannis. He was playing war.

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>>54523613
*guillotines internally*

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>>54529899
Everyone look at this guy and laugh.

He has no idea what he's talking about, but he just pulled the first article on google scholar, read the abstract, and thought he knew all the effects of hormones on a foetus from that.

Here, why don't you actually do some reading, tard.

Low gestational testosterone makes you effeminate:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/
>The evidence supports a role for prenatal testosterone exposure in the development of sex-typed interests in childhood, as well as in sexual orientation in later life,

Lack of testosterone or insensitivity in utero causes you to have a pussydick
>Joe Leigh Simpson, MD
>Male pseudohermaphrodites are persons with a Y-chromosome whose external genitalia fail to develop as expected for normal males. Causes of male pseudohermaphroditism include cytogenetic abnormalities, teratogenic causes, defects in testosterone biosynthesis, and defects in androgen action.

Not to mention all the other reproductive and urological problems caused by improper hormones in the womb.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140422113439.htm
>A study has revealed how men's testosterone levels may be determined before they are born.
>testosterone is crucial for life-long health. Low levels of the hormone have been linked to obesity, diabetes and heart disease.

>>54530595
Samefag

>>54540017
Not an argument

>>54520699
You should do what the good Roman emperor's did. Don't pick from your sons, also pick from nephews and the sons of family friends. That way you can pretty much guarantee the guy who is running the country is well suited for it.

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>>54520804
If any of them had secondborn sons, they would be worse.

>>54536271

Renly knew he would win is why. Stannis had no bargaining position. The Storm Lords were all under Renly's banner, as were the majority of Baratheon bannermen and the Tyrells. He was going to beat Stannis, and he knew that once he did he did most of the remaining Baratheon loyalists would come over to him anyway. There really wasn't a reason for him to *not* kill/capture Stannis and cannibalize his army before moving on King's Landing.

The problem, of course, was Stannis' ace in the hole shadow baby assassin.

>>54520699
Remember when Catelyn offered an alliance that would end the war quickly, as well as a semi-democratic election, and Renly declined because he's a power-hungry warlord?

Good times.

>>54540960
Then when they fuck up, you have no mechanism for succession other than 'which ever general can pay the army more', which leads to continuous civil war.

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>>54541477
>MFW he thought he could kill his brother just by zerg rushing him

>>54541363
Stannis was playing 4-dimensional magical murder chess whilst Renly was still playing checkers. Then Tyrell Ex Machina anyway, fucking terrible.

>>54543189
>4-dimensional magical murder chess

Probably as good a description as any for the series as a whole.

>>54520699
If we ask for best-fit, we would choose Stannis.

>>54543704
People like to claim Renly would've made a better king than Stannis, but I really doubt that. Renly was charming and nice could've probably been an okay king with the right advisors, using his pleasant demeanour to rule over a feudal state, passing little to no reforms of worth. Stannis would be the king to centralise rule and bring Westeros into the equivalent of the early modern era, moving away from feudalism and its inefficent system.

>>54543778
At best, Renly would be a puppet of the Tyrells. From the books alone, Renly was a bit of a warmonger with a might = right POV. His men would be unhappy but he can easily submit or obey Stannis, win, followed by assassination or succeed him if no male kids.

>>54528350
Because the Tyrells would have made better rulers than Stannis, and that's what Renly's rule would have given us. Besides, he was young enough that they could have groomed him into something more proper.

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>>54543816
>Tyrells
Tyrells are just Lannister with a Rose Motif. House Baratheon of Dragonstone and House Florent are the only good house

>>54543863
>just lannister with a rose motif
Except that they had a head of house with family advisors who weren't shit and heirs that weren't fucking insane.

>>54543889
>Except that they had a head of house with family advisors who weren't shit and heirs that weren't fucking insane.
They are supporting a sinking ship anon. how is that not insane

>>54521409
>So we won't have to have a bloody civil war every fucking generation to figure out who the crown should go to.

Roose Bolton taught me a little bloodletting is healthy.

>>54520699
>Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted?
Because its unfair for the eldest son, he is older, wiser, and has more experience, plus he was fucking first.

Just imagine being in a grocery shop line as soon as it opened, and the shop owner keeps attending everyone around you but not you. It feels unfair and shitty.

That's why OP. The best fitted fits somewhere else, he could be a commander, or the master of the economy of the realm, or whatever. He is the fucking best fitted, he has many qualities. The oldest son belongs on the crown.

>>54543778
>Stannis would be the king to centralise rule and bring Westeros into the equivalent of the early modern era

Seems unlikely. In ordinary times his rule would probably lead to civil war. He'd be a good king for the clusterfuck of nation, though.

>>54544030
>>54543778
Stannis has a lot in common with King Alfred, who while sour and pretty damn unlikable did not become the only British king to ever earn the title "The Great" for nothing.

I guess what we need to see from Stannis is that, while people do not love him, he earns the staunch loyalty of all under him.

>>54544030
A civil war seems likely, sure. But it'd be a war he could win, and with that, centralise even further. The nobles of the middle-ages didn't give up their land and levy without a sound, they put up a good fight.

There are a few fun historical examples of kings like that, like Gustav I of Sweden.

>>54544063
>he earns the staunch loyalty of all under him.
This, and this is pretty important. Stannis may be unlikeable on the outside, but the men he has are loyal to no ends and would give everything for him.

>>54543934
There aren't really any other options for them.

>>54544316
There are always options.

see: Dorne

Not acting is acting

>>54544316
Didn't Stannis say if they bend the Knee they would get clemency? They could have pulled a Vale or Dorne, but no they went out of their way and picked a sinking ship.

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>>54529899
>low test faggot
>posts anime

Checks out

>>54541503
Except that didn't really happen. All the civil wars in the middle and late Empire were because the Emperor died before choosing a successor AND didn't have children as well. So it's not like a regular succession would have helped anyway, because it was already the back up in the Roman Imperial system.

>>54540017
> gay=effeminate
Rightio. All of 4chan is effeminate then.

>>54544555
Lower testosterone in utero = lower testosterone throughout life (and other possible abnormalities) = less masculine secondary traits (IE fit, confident, active) = more effeminate = identifying more with women = super homo

>>54544356
They wanted someone they could control.

>>54544670
The Lannister/Tyrell power-block is tearing one another apart

>>54543976
This is the worst line of reasoning in the whole thread.

>>54544648
> posts on 4chan
> believes being gay is the same as being effeminate
> 4chan is ultra-gay
> anon is gay and effeminate

I mean, I'm glad you aren't disputing this at all.

>>54545291
he was literally right though

>>54545394
Should the first guy who applies for a job opening be the one to get the job?

>>54545394
So "it's his turn" is a valid argument for you?

You know who else had more experience, was wiser, and around longer? You know whose turn it was?

Hillary. If you agree with him, then you agree Hillary should have won.

>>54545409
>>54545422
>they fell for the democracy meme
lmao

>>54545394
The grocery line is a pretty bad metaphor. Being second born therefor second in line despite qualifications could also seem unfair and shitty. The bigger reason to favor the standard method of succession is just so you don't have to have a fucking war every time the king dies

>>54545446
> disagreeing with line of succession means you support democracy
I mean, you're a retard, but that can't be helped.

>>54545409
>>54545422
>>54545453
do not have children

your method of thinking will turn the first son into a murderer

>>54545453
>Being second born therefor second in line despite qualifications could also seem unfair and shitty
also you don't deserve the position your older brother was meant to have. your older brother was born thinking it was his destiny until you ruined it

is not unfair or shitty, you were born later, that's life, deal with it, if you can't deal with it, kill yourself, your family doesn't care they still have your older brother who is more important

>>54545536
Something tells me you were severely damaged as a child.

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>>54544555
>>54544648
>being gay limits your ability

Literally one of the gayest fuckers to ever live, literally the one ancient figure every other ancient egomaniac looked up to, literally still regarded as one of if not the greatest general to ever live

literally

>>54545491
>>54545582
(You)

>>54545585
>Literally one of the gayest fuckers to ever live
Alexander was bisexual, not full homo, and even then he spurned excessive displays of sexuality as 'degenerate' behavior. He was once presented with a boy whore that had half his army salivating and he got fucking enraged that they thought he was so easily lead by his sexual urges.

That said, he probably was a functional alcoholic.

>>54545507
I'm not a monarch though?
>>54545536
Basically what you're saying is that my best options in life involve killing my older brother

>>54545621
>my best options in life involve killing my older brother
yeah, but since you are a little shit he has:
a) more resources than you
b) more connections than you
c) more money than you
d) more allies than you

you are not killing him

>>54545607
Not an argument.

>>54545617
>degenerate

Why do I feel like that specific word was not used

>>54545651
Well that's what this whole thread is about.

Renly had more of all those things than his older brother.

>>54545651
So what you're saying is that if I can kill my brother it just proves how much better I was than him all along?

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>>54545651

>>54545668
Because they didn't speak English in the ancient world, but excessive displays of sexual lust were seen as 'barbaric' by many Greeks and Macedonians during the time of Alexander. This was the era of the Platonic ideal.

>>54545729
Barbaric is not the same as degenerate
Degenerate being a word which on 4chan has the baggage as being used as a catchall for "anything I don't like" by a particular subgroup

/pol/ has ruined the english language forever.

>>54545422
>hillary
>experienced
>wise

You democrats really crack me up.

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>>54545726
Post more second or later sons who were wildly more successful than their older brothers.

>>54545585
Literally just inherited that fantastic army he used from his father, literally conquered a crumbling persian empire that was nothing compared to what Herodotus wrote about. Literally died before having an opportunity to actually shape his empire because he was such a drunk.

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>>54545793

>>54545668
Do you actually think 4chan invented that word? What a degenerate.

>>54545781
>/pol/ has ruined the english language forever.
No you're just such a butthurt moron that you blame words for being used by people who's opinions hurt your feelings.

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>>54545825

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>>54545842

>>54545781
>Being this triggered.

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>>54545850

>>54545815
He died of a "fever" which is to say he had a fever and they kept bleeding him to cool him down until he died

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>>54545865

>>54545785
Except the poster you're responding to didn't state that he thinks Hillary is wiser and more experienced than Trump, but that by the logic that the eldest is more competent and "deserving" of success than the youngest, Hillary would be more competent than Trump.

>>54545867
LMAO

>>54545992
but hillary isn't trumps brother

>>54545664
>>54545674
who is renly?

>>54545680
yes, and at that point you deserve the crown, because you proved your older brother was trash

>>54545726
what did he meant by that?

>>54545585
Alexander is my historyfu

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>>54545815
>Alexander's inherited Macedonian logististical capacity from his father
>this means he wasn't a genius field commander who's battle strategy has been studied for millennia

>>54546043
Genghis Khan was the second son.

>>54546128
Yeah, and he murdered his older brother.

>>54546178
he was more like Stannis than Renly though?

>>54546193
Mongol succession wasn't really ever the most cut and dry, so it's probably not a perfect comparison for many reasons

>>54545992
Thanks anon. Exactly that.
>>54546178
>>54546128
Essentially this. By the retard anon's argument, Genghis' brother should've been leader. And we all know that didn't happen.

>>54546539
by right he should have, but the lesser brother murdered him, making himself the older brother, thus the retard's logic stands, the older is always the better one

>>54546630
His logic stands, but has become trivial and worthless.

>>54546640
indeed it has

>>54546630
He becomes the oldest living son, not the firstborn, which is where the retard's logic started. He's still a retard.

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>>54540017
I could have chosen my words more carefully. Of course there are more effects from excessive androgens on natal development than hypertension. What I wanted to highlight is that being the first son doesn't guarantee higher concentrations of testosterone, or "manliness," and high-t in utero can cause disorders.

But this hormonal theory of sexual orientation and behavioral development bullshit is bad science funded and conducted under the auspices of treating alternative sexual orientation as a disease.

This article you cite provides studies that determine associative linkage, not causal. The material is uniformly speculative, based on sociological studies from the early 90s and rat studies, where the rats receive concentrations of hormones no fetus conceivably could in normal circumstances.

From that article:
"The origins of variability in sexual orientation are far from completely understood."

"There are no apparent hormonal differences in adulthood between men who are heterosexual and those who are not."

Are testosterone, estrogen, estrodione, et al directly linked to development of physical and organizational sex characteristics? Sure.

Is sexual orientation or behavior entirely determined by deficiency in testosterone during fetal development? No. The link between biology and sexual orientation is still not completely understood. Factors hormonal, genetic, and epigenetic may play a part. But no definitive study has been conducted. These are working hypotheses, and of specious intent.

Neither is there any conclusive evidence that subsequent offspring following the first receive a reduced concentration of sexual hormones. Advanced age of the parent might impact hormone production, but that's not your assertion.

Like the majority of people who want to abuse science to forward their agenda, you began with the assertion you want to prove and sought evidence to support your pre-existing bias.

So would Robert had to choose letting one of his brothers take his place as King who would he have chosen?

>>54547980
Probably Renly. He generally disliked Stannis on a personal level, and didn't really seem like the type of person to ever think "We need a strict ruler"

>>54546178
>Yeah, and he murdered his older brother.
Genghis killed his half-brother Behter because his full siblings and mother had been abandoned by their clan, and Behter stole the spoils of their hunt, it had nothing to do with succession and at the time he was so poor the idea he'd amount to anything was considered ludicrous.

Genghis did famously execute his blood-brother Jamukha when the two came into armed conflict. They were essentially the two biggest warlords in Mongolia, and their conflict was inevitable when they both decided they wanted to be Khan of Khans, but they weren't literal brothers.

>>54548075
Genghis was also the oldest of his full-brothers.

Renly would have been a terrible king given his crippling autism but whatever.

>>54548123
What autism?

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House Tyrell of Brightwaterkeep.

How does House Tyrell keep getting away with this?

>>54547980
Ned.

>>54547980
Stannis due to succession laws

>>54540960
Actually, there's a lot of evidence to suggest heirs in Roman society were selected due to families having a lack of sons. Roman birth rates were rather low. This is reflected in the law somewhat, as, Roman law made no distinction between biological and adopted children, likely to avoid any issues with inheritance.

>>54550576
Such a egregious answer. Do you have any proofs?

>>54551883
>egregious
I'm not sure you know what this word means.

>>54553512
or how it is pronounced

best fit is subjective and would lead to conflict between brothers, oldest is clear and concise.

>>54520699
Best-fitted is subjective. Oldest isn't.

>>54550576
>This is reflected in the law somewhat, as, Roman law made no distinction between biological and adopted children, likely to avoid any issues with inheritance.

I always thought this was due to Roman society being rather fluid, finding more importance in your "tribe" (aka, the average aristocratic Family) than in the individual.

In fact, it's quite amazing how well the Roman Empire operated as it had for over 300 years, as they never codified the means of succession and any situation where the next Emperor was unclear (as instances where a successor was never named) were always unique and wildly dependent on the circumstances at that time.

Of course, one could argue this had always been the modus operandi of the Empire, which was less an Empire and more an Alliance of Cities. Though an Empire, the Administration of said Empire was famously sleek, centered more around making sure the local aristocracies of the various cities they ruled over were paying their rightful dues to Rome. It could be said the Crisis of the Second Century was in fact due to these local aristocracies failing, forcing the Roman Empire to devote more and more bureaucracy to the maintenance of the Empire and thus increasing the bloat, corruption and inefficiency of the Imperial apparatus.

Ironically, the Roman Empire collapsed when the Empire had to start functioning like an Empire.

>>54554674
>Ironically, the Roman Empire collapsed when the Empire had to start functioning like an Empire.
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Julius Nepos the Wise?

>>54555919
No tell me

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Where did bastards lay in succession laws

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>>54545585

Are we supposed to sympathise with cersei?

>>54561263
No. On occasion we're supposed to empathize with her, at least in the books. But overall she's dumb bitch continually digging her own grave while thinking she's a genius.

>>54543863
>Florents
>Good

The Florents lost him the battle of the Blackwater, and probably the war. Alester was a traitor, and the rest are all as unprincipled and power-hungry as a Baelish, without being half as clever or competent.

>>54558116
In GoT I think only Kings can legitimize them, but it might just be heads of their households

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>>54562880
>Believing Tyrell lies.


Finally! I have been waiting ages for the greatest of houses in the Reach to get their week. The true lords of Highgarden that continue the struggle to depose the Tyrell pretenders, and the most loyal of houses to the one true king of Westeros, Stannis Baratheon.
I feel it best to highlight the awesomeness of this house by detailing its many distinguished members.

Selyse Florent: The One True Queen of Westeros, the lovely Selyse is a devoutly religious woman of the strongest moral standing. Unlike every other woman calling herself "Queen" in Westeros, she alone isn't being tried for being a whore.

Axell Florent: A MAN OF THE WORLD and the Hand to the One True Queen of Westeros. Axell is a noble and dependable man that is loved and envied by all around him. Currently betrothed to the oldest daughter of Gerrick Kingsblood, thus giving him royal ties to the Wildlings as well.
Imry Florent: Bravely led Stannis's fleet into the Battle of the Blackwater. Surely died early in the fight due to treachery, because all agree the outcome would have been far different otherwise.

Alester Florent: He temporarily lost the faith, and to repent, he willingly allowed himself to be burnt alive in order to provide Stannis's fleet with strong winds to reach the Wall in time and stop Mance Rayder. The NW and the entire realm is in his eternal debt.

Colin Florent: After the Battle of the Blackwater, the illborn pretender to the throne Joffrey claimed that House Florent was "attainted" and had the audacity to name Garlan Tyrell as Lord of Brightwater Keep. Well, three books later and pompous sellout opportunist jerkoff Garlan has yet to set foot in Brightwater Keep, because Colin Florent has been holding it down like a BOSS. Keep in mind that he is literally surrounded by enemies on all sides. Let them come, his sword THIRSTS.

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>>54563048

Alekyne Florent: Current Lord of Brightwater Keep, Alekyne is currently in Old Town, plotting his next move with the Hightowers. Make no mistake, he isn't "hiding," he is "planning" something. Planning something big. Do not underestimate the cunning of the fox!

Samwell Tarly: Literally every one of his positive attributes come from his Florent blood. I hear he's a pretty smart cookie.

Melessa Tarly: A loving mother stuck with a douche of a husband. Sam is convinced that he can send Gilly and her baby to his home and they will be cared for, solely due to his mother. Given who his father is, that speaks volumes as to how awesome Melessa is.

Edric Storm: A fine young lad, eternally noble and proud. Showed eternal respect and love towards his father, even though his father was a prick that didn't care about him at all.

Shireen Baratheon: The heir to the throne, Princess Shireen is pure innocence and a true delight for the realm.

The nameless Florent bastard that refused to bend his knee to Joffrey after the Battle of the Blackwater and said right to his face that Stannis would be back and would totally kick his ass: This man was a legend. Eternal respect.

I could go on for days as to the glory of House Florent, but I'll summarize some key points:
House Florent loyally followed Stannis Baratheon despite being totally surrounded by enemies in the Reach as a result. That's how much their faith means to them. This wasn't just because Selyse was married to him, and it wasn't just because he was the true claim: The pretenders on the throne spread ridiculous rumors about Selyse cheating on her husband with Patchface. The Florents defend their own, and will not tolerate such slander and disgraceful behavior!

House Florent has a badass Sigil. Seriously, that fox runs circles around the Tyrell rose for free.
The Tyrells are a bunch of know-it-all pretty boys/girls that think they are the golden children of Westeros.

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>>54563096
The Florents are the scrappy underdogs that straight up have a better claim to Highgarden than these pompous jerks. How can you not root for them to knock the Tyrells down a peg or two?

While everyone is busy playing the game of thrones, House Florent's primary concern right now is dealing with the REAL enemy: The Others. This makes them part of a very very select few house that actually GIVES A DAMN ABOUT WHAT MATTERS.

They are one of the biggest houses that we don't actually know the motto of yet! They are mysterious, that's awesome. Whatever their House words are, I guarantee they are better than "Growing Strong."

In closing: Screw Randyll Tarly. Screw the Tyrells. Screw the current pretenders to the throne. Screw The Others. Haters gonna hate. All hail the true Lords of the Reach!

Because your family already spent their "Who cares what the rules are we gotta put the right guy in charge" card for this generation, wait a few years.

>>54561310
Onlh once are we to empathize with her and that is when tommen is chocking

>>54564372
Remember the Sand Snakes are the good guys. Doran needed to be killed

>>54520699
Renly wouldn't have been a good king. Actually, none of the three would have, except perhaps Stannis and only because his autism would prevent him from acting unjustly... Unless it got too cold I guess, if you're thinking of the show.

The real moral of the Baratheon story is that if you had taken all three brothers and squashed them into one person, the resulting Pan-Baratheon would've been the greatest king possible. Robert's martial prowess, Renly's charisma, and Stannis's morality.

Instead you got three brothers each of whom possessed one admirable trait and a host of terrible ones.

>>54520699
>be the gayest thing this side of westeros
>implying he wouldn't have been mocked off the throne
>implying he wouldn't have gone full mad king just to make the peasentry not mock him relentlessly the entire time he sat on the throune.

>>54535800
>>54536228
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Plantagenet,_1st_Duke_of_Clarence

>>54520735
You know, some titles were inherited by the last son rather than the first. Some believe this might have been how Europeans originally did it, where the older sons would go away to join the families of their wives while the youngest inherited the property of his parents.

>>54547980
Ned. He wanted Ned to be the Regent for Joffery.

Ned was the one he considered to be his brother. He couldn't give a rat's ass about Stannis or Renly.

>>54520699
why not just have Gavelkind succession and split the realm?

>>54567794
Because then the realm wants to reunite and everybody starts fighting each other.

>>54520699
Go read the mongol and mughal succession wars.

>>54523613
Fuck off, Rhodoks. You already fucked up the first time.

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>>54523492
We shall see, brother. Come the dawn, we shall see.