I've only been playing since M12, so that may color my perceptions

Generally speaking, your library is often much bigger than your graveyard. It's also much more difficult for an opponent to interact with a library than with a graveyard.

What it comes down to is you have much more choice and options with Vampiric Tutor than with Reclaim, and that's what makes Vampiric Tutor so much more powerful.

>>54516025
But is it not true than Regrowth is tremendously powerful as well?

Or is Regrowth ONLY that powerful in formats with restricted cards?

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>>54515957
Reclaim is a bad card because a strictly better version exists. It's like playing Terror over Doomblade.

>>54516221
But people don't even run that one. I knew of it, but didn't want to muddle the issue, since the other ones are so one to one.

Also, you can regenerate from a doom blade. I get artifact creatures are more common than regen, but I figured I'd mention it.

Demonic Tutor is a much stronger card than Regrowth.
Vampiric Tutor is still a good card even when Reclaim or Noxious Revival aren't, because it's only a weaker version of a much stronger card.

>>54516151
the difference is in why you use recursion vs why you use a tutor. tutors reduce variability, they get you a card you might not otherwise have seen. vampiric tutor makes you skip an otherwise random draw to get that card, but still delivers on what the tutor is about.

recursion is generally about repeated access to powerful effects. regrowth gets you back the thing immediately while reclaim, at best, makes you wait through your upkeep and draw step before you have access to it. without jumping through more hoops, reclaim doesn't give you the access you want, and denies you access to new cards in the process.

>>54515957
Regrowth is card advantage neutral; you spend a card, and you get a card.

Reclaim is card disadvantage; you spend a card and lose your next card draw to get a card. You're 2-for-1ing yourself.

>>54516467
his point is that the same is true for vampiric tutor, but no one says vampiric tutor is a bad card.

>>54516556
Because for Reclaim to do anything, you need to have already seen the card. For all relevant intents and purposes, Vampiric Tutor does the same job as Reclaim and more.

>>54516779
Reclaim (noxious revival) beats vamp tutor when every copy of what you want is in the graveyard. This is because the odds of something being in your deck are better than those things being in your graveyard. There are going to be cases where this changes (mill decks mostly) but for the majority of your games what you are looking for at any moment will be more likely to be in your deck than your graveyard.

>>54516941
Well, you said it yourself, Mill doesn't exist in any relevant capacity. Sure, if you are playing fun kitchentable jank and your buddy is running his shitty mill deck and you have ONLY access to Reclaim or Revival, you can play it. But in that case, it's still shit because you are playing against mill and chances are good that he'll just mill it away again.

>>54516986
Thats my first post in the thread. I actually had the same question last night at the shop i basically showed him by letting him use his revivals as vamp tutors. Nothing really replaces getting to use the card. he plays infect with revivals and a miracle pump spell in modern

Good discussion. I guess my perspective on how powerful Regrowth was was off the mark.

I mean, hell, just look at what it is legal in compared to Demonic Tutor. You could run 4 copies of it in any format where it has been printed. Unlike D which is straight banned.

And Regrowth did get off the Restricted list of Vintage like last year, where Regrowthing Ancestral Recall is completely legal.

I still wonder if Reclaim is better than something like Nature's Spiral/Revive in EDH, but those cards don't usually see play. It is all about the Eternal Witness.

Reclaim is still slightly worse than Vamp. Tutor strictly in terms of card advantage.

Say your deck has 50 cards in it. If you cast Vamp. Tutor, your deck will still have 50 cards in it and when you draw for turn your deck will be down to 49 randomized cards that where randomized at 49 cards.

If you cast Reclaim, your deck is now 51 cards and 50 when you draw a card. That leaves you at 50 randomized cards randomized at the last time you shuffled.

>>54517633
I don't think you have any idea what card advantage means, but your post is completely incoherent so maybe I'm wrong.

If you're saying "it's better to have 49 randomized cards in your library than 50 randomized cards in your library" then this is clearly wrong at least some of the time.

>>54515957
What are you going to Reclaim on turn 1? A fetchland at best? Is the 1 mana discount really worth -1 card?

At the same time, Vampiric Tutor guarantees a 2 drop draw on T2, or a second land if you have the 2 drop already.

The difference is that on T1 your library has cards and your graveyard doesn't

>>54517723
Thinning and reshuffling contribute slightly to card advantage by increasing the chances of drawing a particular spell.

It's would of been better to say deck thinning over card advantage.

>it's better to have 49 randomized cards in your library than 50 randomized cards in your library
Enlighten me as to why this would be wrong some of the time? The only time I can think of is against mill.

>>54515957
because regrowth and reclaim give you back a card that you already tried to play and didn't win you the game, while demonic tutor and vampiric tutor usually give you a certainly broken card that wins you the game on the spot, or at worst completely fixes a bad starting hand and both those things completely outweight the importance of card advantage.Vampiric tutor into your second land might be better than a mulligan.

Also vampiric tutor looks as good as demonic tutor because it's an efficient use of your first turn.Turn 1 reclaim? not looking good, therefore part of the advantage of costing 1 mana is gone.

>>54516151
Adding to >>54516402, tutors are straight up more versatile.
Unless you've found /every/ copy in your deck, a tutor can be used to repeat a powerful effect.

>>54517633
wew lad

>>54520060
The argument about turn 1 makes sense, even if it isn't the primary reason, it somehow made the whole thing click.

I wonder how much a card that reclaimed your whole yard at instant speed would cost.

>>54515957
So it's primarily based on usage cases.
Regrowth effects are frequently used for late game flexibility.
This means that if you're putting a regrowth effect in a deck you care about trying to play a longer game, where factors such as card advantage are absolutely crucial to victory.

Conversely tutors are more combo oriented cards. You don't care about maintaining card advantage into later turns if it means winning next turn.