The main villain is so powerful they break the rules of the system.

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>>54386120
Probably, but I've never seen it done well. Pic related.

>Act out of turn-based combat
>If using figures on a playmat, ignores the mats boundaries
>If the dice roll near him, he can move them

>>54386146
In 5e, powerful baddies can act outside of their turns with legendary and lair actions.

I recall Exalted having a bullshit power where you challenge some guy to a metaphorical fight, where you can use whatever contest you want. You can literally stop playing a RPG combat round and instead challenge the DM to a game of 40K and the outcome of it determines who dies back in the RPG. It's really fucking stupid but shit did it get me hyped.

>>54386146
>The DM rolls to hit the character and punches the player

>>54386169
I don't mean doing things outside of their turn, I mean doing things out of turns in general, acting and fighting in real time

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>>54386243
That's actually pretty fucking rad. Adding that to the list of ideas for "OH SHIT OH FUCK" form big bad.
Some other ideas I had:
-Using a completely different system's magic. Vancian casting? Fuck outta here, we /dbz/ now.
-Completely reversing cause-effect relationships. Use damage dice for to-hit, and to-hit dice for damage.

I have this shitty selfmade system where people use pools of d6s, with 1,2 and 3 as failures and 4,5 and 6 successes (before modifiers and stuff). Except for divine and otherwise "special" beings, who get to use d10s instead, treating all dice 4+ as successes.

That moment when you suddenly burst out the d10s for the stramge new antagonist, heh

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>instead of acting in his turn he gets to act as a reaction to every single move you make

>>54386120
Set a timer, every time x amount of minutes pass in real time he gets an action

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>>54386120
I've got a fun one for the penultimate villain of the Jojo campaign I'm running.

His power is to retroactively edit himself out of a span of up to six seconds, at the end of which he resets time to six seconds prior, and the scene replays as if he was never there. He's pretty minor on the scale of outside-of-ruleset bullshittery, but frankly in practice he plays like Cuil Theory became a person, in an example like this.
>This guy walks into the room. One party member shoots him.
>This guy walks into the room. The party member looks down confused at his gun, which has recently fired a round and then shoots him.
>This guy walks into the room. The party member is out of ammo. Another party member charges him and cuts his head off.
>This guy walks into the room.

Also his characters is written explicitly as Kanye West with superpowers. I can't wait.

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>>54388354

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>>54388403
Real deal though, the stand came about from me literally trying to figure out what an Inverse King Crimson would do.

>>54386120

Sure it can be done well. Not even necessarily with main villains.

Example: the stat system is made to represent mortals: humans, elves, dwarfs, whatever. Players meet an Angel (let's say it's not a high fantasy game and it is really a big fucking deal) - his strenght would be far above the maximum 10 or whatever.

Back in Warhammer Fantasy 1 edition, as a GM I used to give Ogres, powerful Chaos Warriors or other op walking killer tanks illegal stats, damage output or whatever, to represent w two and a half meter magic steel clad vikings from hell better.

Or, it's like giving THE most powerful mage in the seeting a special rule that he doesn't need mana - he is always assumed to have enough.

When you homerule something to represent it better, you are technically breaking the rules of the system.

>>54386120
The entire premise of D&D edition changes have revolved around this.

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>>54386120
Absolutely.

>>54388354
So wait is there any way to kill this dude short of trapping him in a loop?

Couldn't he keep looping until the dude chopping his head off is near-dead from exhaustion, or the elaborate head-chopping machine is turning to rust?

Does time outside his area of influence continue while he does this?

>>54386120
Didn't Undertale have two boss fights that did this?

>>54388354
What's his Stand name?
Dark Fantasy?

I mean isn't it kinda obvious? Just don't bother with mechanics for the villain. Cheat. Re-roll dice that fail and be as obvious about it as possible with no justification. Spontaneously open up books from completely different games and use abilities from those with no adjustment.
A million ways to do this. It's not the way to do this that's either good or bad, it's your reasons.

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>>54386120

>>54389272
The important thing to understand about its time looping is that to everyone that's not him, time is moving forward completely as normal. He's the only one who interacts with the missing time, by removing himself from it. To everyone else, time continues as normal except for all the weird things they find themselves doing, as if someone vanished.

>>54389426
Originally I had been calling it Power, but I'm currently deciding between Black Skinhead and Yeezus for the excuse to use this as its fight music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF7_tsKaRx8

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>>54386120
>so powerful they break the 4th wall
>not even main antagonist

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Make BBEG a dimension hopping wizard, every time you defeat him he travels to another tabletop game universe to escape. When he comes back he has items or allies that have that games stats. Like a 40k bolter and power armor.

>>54389520
Fuck off

>>54389606
Truly, you are disciple of the godking Yeezus.

>>54386120
The best way I've seen it done is to never let the PCs face the OP villain directly, just let the PCs see the indirect effects of his powers, as well as frightening accounts of his victories from an eyewitness or third party.
The point of the quest would be to find his weakness and deliver that to the good guys, or to escape to safety.

>>54389606
Why not All Day? I think this instrumental is pretty fucking JoJo: https://youtu.be/kBBA_n5lqUc

>>54389898
Ideally I would go with Power for his first introduction, All Day for the pre-fight drama and pose off, Black Skinhead for the first fight, then break. The next encounter would probably have Stronger as its actually opening/fight music, with maybe N**as in Paris or Clique as combat music, and the finale would use that Saturday Night Live version of Power where he gets super gaspy and out of breath.

Really the best part about Kanye as a villain is you can lift half his dialogue from his interviews and still work entirely as a crazy megalomaniacal supervillain.Can't you just picture him, with a completely straight face calling himself the 「Motherfucking Glitch?」

>>54386138
I remember when that was first made

Goddamn do I feel old

Also Vyran was a douche. I hope he`s dead

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>>54390070
*Teleporrs behind you*
>NANI?
"Nothing in life is promised except death."
>UAGH

"When you’re the absolute best, you get hated on the most"
Holy shit, he is a JoJo villain

>>54389762

Fuck on

>>54391254
>>54389762
Just Fuck already

>>54386120
>Is there any way to do this well?
Not really. They just have new rules that say "Do x." to give them rules outside of the norm even if they involve the meta-game.

>>54386120
I actually had this idea as the final boss for my campaign. After I describe the apocolypse god beginning to shatter reality, I'd ask to see the player's character sheets and rip them in half. Then I'd see how they'd role play this situation with the rules removed.

Do you think this is too drastic?

>>54386138
>sire: God
Surely that should be Adam?

>>54389750
I'm stealing this concept for an NPC I had who was already a dimension hopping wizard

>>54393045
Sire means "the one who made you vampire". Since Caine was cursed by God, it could be said that his sire is God.

>>54386120
Each round 1D3 investigators are scooped up in Cthulhu's flabby claws to die hideously

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>>54389520
>Sans
>1 HP, 1 ATK
>unlike all other enemies, dodges everything
>does 1 damage each hit... per frame
>attacks while not his turn
>occasionally cuts from one attack to another, rearranging the battlefield

Thinking D&D because I'm used to it.
1 HP and 1 ATK are pretty easy to do.
>has literally 1 HP and probably also 1 AC
>on a successful attack, does exactly 1 damage
Being dodgy is easy, being the ONLY dodgy enemy means introducing a new ability, maybe like:
>Trigger: would take damage from an attack
>Effect: switch places with enemy of choice, who must defend vs attack
>Recharge: roll 2d12. On 3 or greater, this ability recharges immediately. Otherwise recharges after 2 turns. (he'll fall asleep eventually...)
>Effect (Passive): Sans does not provoke nor gain Attacks of Opportunity, and moves without having to pass through intermediate squares
One damage per frame could be:
>on hit, inflict Bad Time
>Bad Time: after the end of any action by any character, take 1 damage, unavoidable. Ends after moving your full move speed or at the end of Sans's turn if he doesn't hit you
>this affliction cannot be removed by other means, aside from Sans's or your death
This also takes care of "attacks while not his turn," though you could also set an additional attack on an IRL timer, possibly an hourglass filled with sans.
For the last one, every so often, move everyone to a random square. This happens pretty much whenever, just between anyone's actions.

Aside from that, Sans doesn't really break the rules. Give him some tough attacks that do no damage but all inflict Bad Time.

Mario unrelated

>>54393633
That's supposed to be 2d6. 2d12 is far too tedious. Could swing 2d8 or 2d10 if the party does a lot of attacks per turn.
Also, I'm sure the numbers are pretty off, which is why I don't homebrew, and mostly stick to worldbuilding threads here.

>>54386177
>character dies
>DM murders you

>>54388274
Oh man that sounds hella stressful

>>54386120
I plan to do this. In Gamma World.

PSA to my players: I know you lurk. Don't look unless you want to spoil a future campaign. See my freakin' user name.

It turns out the "villains" are actually The Auditors of Reality, really fucking pissy about imagination and games making new worlds for them to manage, so they decide to collapse everything into a pile in a single reality and then rebuild them in nice, non-living, perfect order. They wouldn't have rules. They MAKE the rules. To beat them, the players HAVE to cheat.

>>54389320
The final boss of the "neutral route," the one players always see the first time through, is able to save and reload in-universe. He spent an untold amount of time going around helping everyone, then going around trying everything with everyone, then going around killing everyone, and every combination of basically everything. He got a little jaded. Then you the player come along, with your ability to save and reload, and he follows you around and tries to manipulate you into helping him do... something? He eventually becomes a god and remakes reality but the power source that let him do it decide to turn against him, and he loses his power. Then you either kill him or spare him - it doesn't matter because either way the game is over and the only thing left to do is reset and start over and try something different... the same thing he had been doing all along. On future playthroughs he remembers you and leans on the fourth wall, acknowledging the fact that you two have gone through all this before.

>>54389320
>>54393934
The final boss of the "genocide route," the one players usually see last, is also aware of timelines being reset, starting and stopping and jumping all around as you reload saves. He leans pretty heavily on the fourth wall because he's been the comic relief character up to this point, but he doesn't have the ability to save or reload like you and the other guy do - he's only aware that it happens. So when you get to him at the end of the game, after killing EVERY OTHER NPC, BOSS, MINIBOSS, AND RANDOM ENCOUNTER IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME, and hitting the level cap in the process, he knows full well that even if he beats you, you can just reload and try again until you eventually kill him - and you will, because his attacks are all pattern based and anyone can beat him if they keep trying. So he fights dirty. He asks you nicely to quit. He appeals to your humanity. He talks shit. He openly mocks you when you die and try again. He auto-dodges all attacks, making your attacks useless. He damages you WHILE YOU'RE IN THE MENU. His attacks ignore post-hit invincibility. He's not trying to kill you, the player character - he's trying to get you, the player to ragequit.

>>54393015
Holy shit now I want the final grand ultimate boss of my long-running campaign to start off with ripping up my players' sheets

I have no idea what this ultimate boss would even be or why the sheet destruction would be justified but the fucking impact man

I'm fucking doing this before I'm done. I swear it.

If the villain simply breaks the rules, then he can only be defeated by GM the saying so. Which can easily make it all seem rather arbitrary, and the victory a very hollow one. The entire thing will also easily devolve into "guess what I'm thinking".

Now making up new, special rules for him, that's something completely different.

>>54393946
the impression i got from dialogue was that he isn't *actually* aware of the saves and loads happening, he's just incredibly perceptive of how you act, and can read how many times you've faced him based off emotional cues.

that said, that interpretation has always felt stupid and meme-y to me so i prefer thinking he is just aware of the saves and can't do anything about it.

>>54393015
I think winning (or losing) would be really unsatisfying unless you've setup a situation where the entire party (not just one player) has a really really great "aha!" moment.

What did you have in mind for them when they have to just "role play with the rules removed" to beat the final baddie?

>>54394243
The way i undersood it, is that he doesn't know about the save/load mechanic. He instead sees and understands it as you using time travel in-game.
To be fair, this is how in-game characters of every game would understand saving and loading,

>>54389606
Call it runaway. Cause hes like "running away" from 6 seconds of time, or something.

>>54389606
What about Roundabout? since he creates loops in time. Like roundabouts in a road. Also Jojo.

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I don't know if this fits in your question, but i've working on a /v/idya boss that breaks the basic rules of a game.

If you try to open your inventory during the fight, he will seize control of it, taking all your items, and freely using your weapons/healing items.

He will pause the game, and turn the brightness of the screen to 0, so you can't see anything.

When you defeat him, the game will, literally, crash, and the next time you open it, you'll be in a TV show, similar to "Who want to be a millionaire", where you'll have to answer questions about the fight ( how much damage you did on your first hit? how many arms the statue in the corner has?, etc).

>>54386120
Levaliant Green from Maze of the Blue Medusa does it well.

>>54394553
Haven't given it too much thought since its still miles out. So far my only plan is "have faith in myself and my players"

>>54394243
>>54394757
Yeah, you're both right. sans understands saving/loading as the player time traveling and is aware that it's been going on for a while, but can't do shit about it yet. And he reads the characters face to tell how many times they've lost fighting him to a point

>>54386120
You don't seem to get the basics of conveying a meaningful sense of threat or stakes.

Try and think more in terms of lore and getting your players to care about the world their characters live in by encouraging them to build connections to it. The games where the stakes were most real were the ones where our characters had a clear place; homes, lives, goals, friends, and contacts who we interacted with regularly and socially. We had real characters that existed in a particular context instead of rootless marauders perpetually meandering in search of blood and death.

It makes the world a lot more real, and even non-existential threats to parts of it more pressing, when the players actually have roots there. Like helping an actual friend NPC get out of debt, or rescuing someone who a PC's love-interest cares about, as opposed to just being paid to do these things for random strangers before moving on to the next town.

Let the players go through the fight as normal, but make it clear he is breaking the rules. Let the players struggle, and have them come to their own conclusions that they are letting themselves and thus their characters be restricted by the games rules. The moment they realize and state an attack out of turn or anything else out of line, allow it. It should be a mindfuck.

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Pic Related is basically all this
>attacks based on real time that has passed rather than the turn system every other character uses
>halfway through the fight, fakes opening the title screen and deleting your save
>will sometimes use the turn system anyway for extra attacks if you input too fast
>can deal more than the damage cap in a single attack

>>54396763
>>halfway through the fight, fakes opening the title screen and deleting your save
>not actually deleting your saves
sometimes random VN gets more hardcore than your RPG

>>54393734
>he then laughs it off and has the villain cast Resurrection on the player

>>54396853
>player comes back to life

>>54396949
>villain then rips up the DMs sheet and creates a new one

OP here, loving all the ideas y'all have been throwing around. It's much appreciated and I'll definitely be deploying some of them in my campaign eventually.
>>54396949
villain assumes direct control over the GM

>>54389520
Neck yourself kindly

>>54397005
To be fair, Sans is actually a pretty good example of what I was asking about. He's a cheating, unfair bastard, but he's still beatable. There are still rules, if only odd ones.
i unironically enjoyed undertale and consider it and its soundtrack money well spent desu

>>54386120
Honestly doing that well is based more on group. Like no matter how you pull it, doing it with a group of people who don't like that sort of thing is going to be unsatisfying

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>>54397023
Flowey's the one that breaks the game. Sans just munchkins the fuck out of it.
>Flowey does % damage rather than having an ATK
>Sans has an ATK of one, and does one damage
>>he just does it as often as he can
>Flowey can take as many hits as he wants
>Sans can only take one
>>he just doesn't get hit - his opponent doesn't, either, after all
>Flowey attacks you in full color, possibly outside of the "battle mode" thing
>Sans keeps to the black-and-white style, only using color to denote actual different-effect attacks
>>there's just... a lot of it all the time
>Flowey uses save/load to stop you from killing him
>Sans takes his turn
>>it just lasts for a long time
It's not Sans's fault you expect rules that were never present.
Same; I liked the story and event reactions, and even learned to play Dogsong on the piano! It's really fun.

>>54393045
Adam made Caine a man. God cursed Caine to wander for eternity.

>>54388354
>>54388474
But you literally just described King Crimson

Like, there's barely any difference, just instead of time continuing it's wound back

>>54390242
Kanye West is basically black Dio Brando, yes

For one of my boss encounters, I gave everyone new dice I heated so that they would be loaded towards two. It was representative of his ability to change fate.

I guess that's a meta way to represent a villain's in-universe power

>>54398058
You're a dick, anon. And I fucking love that idea.

>>54397023
>>54397890
I'm so glad I was blissfully unaware of that cringy fucking fanbase when I played that game. I would never have touched it had I seen a 10th of the fandom.

>>54398387
It is known.

>>54398387
This, by the way, is what it feels like to be a Homestuck fan.

>>54398387
Why do you care about the fanbase of a single player game?

>>54386120
Take away your players dice and give them an edgy set that has been biased towards 1s

>>54386120
you're players have up to one action every 30 IRL seconds, you have to roll low instead of high in order to perform actions properly, and the mana system is replaced by having a limited amount of casts per spell.

>>54398494
Some people enjoy talking about things they like with other people who like that thing.

>>54398582
>MFW we're playing 5E so it's going from vancian casting to mana
i'm ok with this

>>54398651
>still rolling AGAINST the bonuses you've been building all game
you won't be, trust me.

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>>54398731
>MFW i'm the GM so i don't fucking care

>>54398956
then you gotta have a timer on ya, make him do a turn after the 30 seconds, tell everyone to make their next move, and reset timer

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>>54398978
It's going to be GLORIOUS.

>>54399025
Don't forget to have metamagic be wonky. Oh, you wanted to cast your maximised quickened fireball? Well you do realize it's a minimised slowed fireball now, right?

>>54399561
You want to summon your weightless glowing magic sword that you have because reasons? Those are some nice heavy light-eating boots you have, genius.

>>54386120
I have an idea for a villain kind of like this. He was originally the being who created the universe and cared very little for the beings that lived in it. Eventually, his most powerful creations turned on him and invaded his domain. They had no real chance, since he could literally will them out of existence, but he let them get close because it seemed fun. While taunting one of them by making copies of her and destroying them, he underestimated the combined strength of the copies and they managed to overpower him. She stripped him of his power and divided it among her allies making them the gods of this world. She then cast what was left of him into the deepest pit of the nether world and buried him beneath the souls of the greedy who would drain his power faster than he could restore it.

Now he has escaped the pit into whatever kind of world I set this in and begins reclaiming his powers by either killing or overthrowing the gods. He starts with the ability to manipulate the desires of especially greedy people and every power he regains gives him direct control over some aspect of reality, be it gravity, the elements, or something else.

His end game is to take out the goddess who defeated him, who now controls life and death. With her power he could simply create loyal allies and kill anything that gets in his way unless the players can find a way to beat the one who wrote the rules of reality.

>>54397890
Everything you said was fine up until you described learning to play Dogsong on the piano

>>54399025
I'll be honest, I only put it as a cruel joke, but I've thought of a way to make it even better! They item he drops is a ring described as being extremely powerful, it sets your highest stat to zero when worn
>>54399561
>>54399956
Also, these.

>>54400227
Shit I meant >>54399664 for the second one

In Broodmother Skyfortress, the giants don't have AC, they have Damage Resist. Your attacks always hit the giants, because they're fucking giant. Your attacks don't hurt the giants, because they're fucking giants.

>>54398437
Brethren.
This is true as fuck, though, in all seriousness.

>>54389750
I did this in my recent campaigns
I had a villian who got sucked into the warp in and RT game turn up on innistrad with a bolter

>>54398643
That's what having real world friends are for, something that /tg/ is severely lacking in

>>54388274
Time your players during a different boss fight, set it so the boss goes 2 times per average round. Halfway through the fight speed it up to four times.

>>54397004
Stay in character as the villain for the whole fight. Taunt your players while describing their actions. Don't acknowledge them if they try to address you by your real name.

In Knights of Pen and Paper 2 the whole is story is about a group of adventurers using the previous editions rules and being OP because of it. Your party eventually has to track down the errata that will nerf them so they can be defeated.

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>BBEG lost arm, and sanity in war.
>Somehow gained reality warping powers
>Can break the 4th wall
>Players try to stop him
>GM puts players in a chokehold
>Cops are called on the GM
>Police read him his Miranda rights
>Shouts that he's innocent of the crimes
>"It wasn't me it was the one armed man!"

>>54389123
underrated af post

>>54394001
I think it's implied that the villain breaks only some rules, not all of them.

>>54386243

>Bad guy doesn't act every round, he acts every two minutes
>Players better make their turns fast

the video game bravery default does this masterfully, the final boss is not limited by the turn based attack system and he can see you the player through the 3DS camera.

turns out the entire story was to amuse you the player who the final boss views as a god since you exist outside of reality.

>>54388354
>invite the guy into a room
>talk to him for a few minutes
>turns out room was locked after he walked in
>turns out there's a bomb in it
>"My life is a low price to pay to kill something so abominable as yourself."
>BOOM

>>54386120
>Write a word down on a piece of paper and turn it facedown. As soon as someone says that word, they must make a wisdom saving throw or take 3d6 psychic damage.
>Anytime a player swears or curses, their character takes one psychic damage
>after seven dice have been rolled, the villain makes one attack
>if a player metagames how high the AC of the villain is, it suddently gains one AC against that player's character
>roll behind your screen/hand: the next player who rolls that number, takes damage/suffers an affliction similar to a bard's cutting words/has disadvantage on his attack/has to make a joke or lose his next attack

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>>54396992
>Pull this off on your players.
>Push the commitment by moving out of town the next day and never speak to them again

>>54400492
Having characters use gear and spells that are simply outside of your setting (but which still have rules) is the best way imo. The enemy warlock's "hand crossbow" only needs to reload every 7 attacks and does 6d6 damage? Still a weapon, still depletes HP.

Removing those rules removes player control.

>>54403658
This reminds me of a monster I read about on an OSR blog I follow. They respawn any time a player discusses them or if someone goes mind-reading and dredges up a memory of them (though they don't necessarily respawn near the PCs).

>>54393771
That's great. I'm totally stealing this.

>>54386120
I had this idea recently that the BBEG could stop/manipulate time and I wouldn't tell he players this until they could figure it out themselves. Like I could tell the players to leave the room sometimes during his turn and when they come back he has gone through the equivalent of a couple turns but he can only do this so often. Thought it could be a neat concept for a tough BBEG that wasn't necassiraly super strong stat-wise.

>>54389762
>>54397005
>doesn't like creative fun game because of fanbase/or just for the sake of disliking stuff other people like.

>>54403611
I wish the rest of the game was more interesting, then I'd probably made it to the boss

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>>54400076
It's a simple, upbeat tune that essentially lets you do left-hand on autopilot while focusing on the right. Very similar to Tom Lehrer's "Pollution," and like an easier version of The Entertainer (fucking two-hand chord jumps over octaves).
Unfortunately, my favorite songs from the game, Megalovania and Death By Glamour, really don't have a good solo.
Though if it's just learning vidya music for the piano that's upsetting, wait 'til you hear I can play the Super Mario Bros overworld theme, the Final Fantasy victory fanfare,
and a simplified Pokemon Center melody (1 hand).

>>54386120
Meta tricks are hard to do well and easy to do poorly. If you just do them to be "clever" or different, then it'll seem like a cheap gimmick. To get the right impact, you need the right setup and context, which means there should be a reason for them more specific and significant than "they're just that powerful". Generally, it comes down to one question.

What do the game's rules represent?

Once you've thought about what the rules mean, you can think of ways to meaningfully break them. The trick is to make it meaningful; if you can think of a time when this is done well, then odds are that the rules being "broken" held some more plot significance than making the villain more impressive, instead representing something about the very nature of their power and/or about a story that was already connected to those "rules" somehow.

One tabletop game that does this well is Exalted. The Fair Folk, or raksha, are otherworldly invaders from the chaos beyond reality, and they are very different from anything in Creation. In their natural state, they aren't physical beings at all, but more like sentient stories who shape the dreamlike chaos of the Wyld to "tell" themselves. In their default state, they don't use any of the same stats; instead they have use "Graces" like the Sword or Cup, which represent their ability to tell certain types of stories, and they clash with one another in Shaping Combat, which is their ability to be a story so compelling that others wlll be changed by it. To enter Creation, they have to form a false body to represent themselves, which follows Creation's rules and allows them to use their powers in different ways from their "natural" state.

In short, the raksha are creatures who are so far outside the game's setting that they use fundamentally different rules, and to enter Exalted they have to "convert" themselves to its system. Alternatively, they're "players" who have to create new characters to enter the world.

>>54386120
>Consider yourself de-protagonized

>>54406695
Good post.
Another thing to remember is that, to do this well, you can't just have some rules not apply to the boss, the boss has to adhere to *different* rules. For example:

>fuck with the turn system
>>Enemy is blindingly fast. He takes an action if not a turn after each player's turn.
>>Enemy is a time mage. "Skips" a few turns in a defensive state, then reveals that he'd been storing them, taking several turns at once.
>>Enemy isn't from this world, seems to move unnaturally. He acts on a timer, taking each turn X minutes after his last one ends, regardless of turn order.

>fuck with armor/dodge
>>Enemy has unique "adaptive armor." Only takes damage on a critical; critical damage is rolled like normal damage.
>>Enemy wields a reality-shifting weapon. Attacks always hit.
>>Enemy can blink back a short while in time. Defends with opposed rolls, which he can reroll X times per round.

>>54406497
>fuck with beast tamer
>>Enemy is particularly savage. Defeated creatures get quickly eaten.
>>Enemy is known to inspire savagery. Defeated creatures turn on their tamer.

Not really for the villain but I use tricks like that in an urban unsease/nightshift campaign.
I run the mundane stuff on a modified version of safe point and when PC pick up magic use (I'm slowly ramping up the power level to something like dresden fies because i want to transition from the gas sation job to owning a shipyard full of anomalous container), they all get the basic wizard spellcasting from a different system.

>>54386120
In theory, high level or important enemies in DnD 5e do it, after a fashion- some of them have "legendary actions" that allow them to execute some of their actions right after another player, giving the impression that they can ignore the turn sequence and their normal number of actions. Of course it is actually just another rule, but how do you break the rules without making a rule for the new situation?

>>54394896
>>54395081
Most stands don't have names that have anything to do with their powers.

>>54408339
but it's cooler when they do

>>54406695
Somewhat ironically, the Fair Folk/Raksha are far from the biggest danger to Creation. In fact, they generally have more to fear from it than it has to fear from them, since Creation was specifically designed to bring order to the primordial chaos.

Another good example is the Exalted version of demons. They are all servants of the Primordials, either representing an aspect of them or being created for a specific tasks; each exists for a purpose and embodies that purpose. While they follow similar rules to other creatures, they don't have stats or skills like normal beings do; they predate the existence of reality as we know it, since their masters are the ones who created it to begin with. Instead, they all have descriptive abilities like "hunting humans" or "military conquest" or "subtle temptation", each unique to the demon who uses it and unrelated to any other attributes or abilities that might otherwise be similar. They weren't made to fit in Creation, Creation was made to fit them.

>>54387736
Oh shit, I have a similar selfmade system and that sounds like a great idea! I'll totally use that

>>54386120
Not main villain from my campaign is something like that:
>if players plan their moves talking OOC, he gets bonuses and he is prepared to their actions
>quite burdensome to deal with because of his damage mitigation, dodge and parry
>heals himself when players argue OOC with each other, the longer their quarrels are, the more HP he regains
>has ridiculously slow and weak attacks: he basically hits enemies with wooden staff
>but his amount of turns and initiative slowly grow as players miss him
>when he parries or mitigates shit, his attacks get little bonus and spells become more powerful for one cast
>when he gets his ass rendered and rolls are even numbers, he spills debuffs semi-randomly
>if dices align into 5\10\15 or any of numbers three times, he asks party if they want stop, because "luck smells mine today"
>if they continue and gets beaten to 40% hp, he takes out 4 swords and changes staff to enchanted spear, becoming half-monstrosity
>if they stop, they, well, stop and he walks somewhere else
If not attacked he is basically least dangerous of main villains bunch, besides bamboozling, trolling and trying to turn PC against each other.

>>54408339
>Killer Queen
>it kills people
D E E P E S T
E
E
P
E
S
T

As the thread has said yes. I know one idea I always liked was a villain who was addicted to haste potions, and through repeated dosages developed the ability to have two turns per round while boosted by a haste potion.

>>54415431
>The tabletop equivalent of chugging 500 skooma and jumping across morrowind

>>54415261
I have mixed feelings about this

>>54386120

My villain isn't really breaking the rules as such, but he is meta.

He's LN and is fundamentally opposed to adventurers for backstory reasons. Basically he thinks letting a bunch of undisciplined murder-hobos who aren't allied to the state or, often, to basic decency run around accruing great power through finding magical items and experience is an inherently bad idea.

He's been using the party to put a stop to adventurers by basically having them systematically genocide all of the weak and mid-level monsters, thus removing the initial rungs from the ladder and preventing any fledgling adventurers getting a start on their career.

He has also mandated that taverns must be well-lit and has had many renovated to give them a trendy new circular design- thus eliminating dark corners for shady quest-givers and other edgy rogues to hide in.

Next comes to ten-foot pole tax.

>>54416165
But new monsters will come in to take the lower rung sooner or later, if only on account of the stronger ones needing some fodder or minions - and if not, the new adventurers will just start in bigger groups, escalating the problem. They're crazy, you can't fix that.

The shady quest givers can just wait in/outside other establishments, too, or in dark alleys.

And people can have nine- or eleven-foot poles.

He's not being very smart for a meta character is what I'm saying.

>>54416165
>Next comes to ten-foot pole tax.
>this motherfucker

>>54407091
Generally agreed there, but the armor and weapon have the problem giving enemies any exceedingly powerful gear does - either it takes giving it to the players and fucking with the balance (unless it's the final enemy), or using the cheap and aggravating move of 'it only works for them/vanishes'.

And that has never been a good angle to take.
Far better to tie their 'alternate rule' ability to themselves rather than an item.

>>54416440
You could have a monstrous boss, or a paranoid wizard who never wrote down his biggest secrets. Rather than gear, it's a natural effect/enchantment.

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>>54386120
The Mekton Zeta core rulebook has some choice words on a similar topic.

>>54386120
as a dm i got some bad news for you, op

>>54387736
That's awesome. I didn't go as far as you, but I have players using 2d6 plus stats as a base mechanic. Mundane humans use 1d6 and gods (including endgame players, in a couple specific cases) get 3d6. Big deal campaign bosses might go to 5d6 or something crazy, but I wonder if I can't go deeper and give the DM some kind of dice pool mechanic, for when they really want to fuck with the players.

>>54395542
We're not talking about the basics. What you're talking about is great, and a much better way to play in general. In fact, it's an important and necessary foundation for what this thread is about. But once in a very long while, after establishing the rules and reinforcing them constantly for ages, it can be extremely impactful to break them.

>>54398651
Mfw reading a Chinese novel about a dude who goes to Faerûn and does this

>>54403958
Nice unintentional jojo reference

>>54417710
>But once in a very long while, after establishing the rules and reinforcing them constantly for ages, it can be extremely impactful to break them.
It's dangerous to advocate for this since it can encourage even more rookies to decide it's shatter their players' trust just for the sake of making them cry. Also even breaking the social contract even once can undermine credibility in ways that can hurt the social dynamic and push developing players toward murderhobo behaviors.

This is one way for That GMs to develop. They get an emotional reaction out of their players for cheating or otherwise violating the social contract, take it to mean their GMing is good, so they continue to undermine their own credibility until there's nothing left and blame everyone else for the resulting shitshow.

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>>54406497
>Tom Lehrer

My absolute nigga. I always use him as radio music in fallout campagins.

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>>54406497
>>54417953
>yfw your players drink the water AND breathe the air

>>54403631
>He removes himself from the span of time in which the bomb blows up.
Bullets fired at him are still gone, so he comes back to a charred room and a corpse.

>>54417930
Yeah, like I said, it needs a good foundation and it can't be all the time. Notice that the vidya examples in this thread are all the final bosses.

The game mechanics aren't really part of the social contract. We're not talking about cheating in the sense of just not following any rules, but of creating new and utterly alien rules that are still compatible with the system that the players use.

>>54417897
More like bad intentional JoJo ripoff.

>>54415911
Tell me, please.

>>54395176
Like in undertale that the game crashes at the end

>>54386120
Might be an interesting idea: you, GM, got no idea how to defeat the main villain. So players need to figure it out, but most likely they wont, because they know even less of the nature of the main villan then you.

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>>54386243
>>54403459

I really dig the idea of doing something like this. Might be a fun exercise to test group cohesion.

>>54386138

>implying caine is powerful enough to challenge a fucking archmage

I did a big boss fight in 5e like this once. The idea was that the creature the party was fighting was unbelievably fast, so fast that their turns were cut short. If a player took more than 45 seconds in real time to figure their shit out and declare their actions, the boss would automatically get a free reaction and then a full bonus turn right after resolving pending a coin flip. It was very effective in making the two incompetent casters who didn't know their spells sweat.

I had another idea of a powerful psychic making the players swap characters mid-fight, or of a curse making them swap equipment. I think they're still wary of meta-fuckery because of the last one though.

>>54419183
yes he is

>>54420703

lolno

Doubt it counts as a villain but what about some permanent game finisher like a meteor, moon, or planetoid crashing into the game world. I'm not talking elder evil Atropus but a legitimate celestial object.

Assuming it's a D&D-esque fantasy world, no amounts of Apocalypse from the Sky or similar spells are going to halt it. Even in modern ages objects go zipping by Earth and people don't realize until they've already passed by.

The only mechanic would be time before impact and even then it's basically just making peace or attempting some Fallout-style vault and hoping the planet doesn't get obliterated.

>>54418096
So I guess you have to use a slow-acting poison or something.

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>>54388354
>This guy walks into the room. One party member shoots him.
>This guy walks into the room. The party member looks down confused at his gun, which has recently fired a round and then shoots him.
Have him say "Hold up, Imma let you finish"

>>54419183
Archmages can't do anything tho

>>54417897
>>54418169
>stopping time is automatically now a jojo reference
everything is becoming a jojo reference WRRRYYY

>>54415261
Depending on your group this could end up funny or it could be disastrous since you are making a very meta set of abilities aimed at pissing off your players to screw over their PCs. They make take this personally.

I'm doing a "Crisis on Infinite Campaigns" one shot once we finish our current 2 yearish 5e campaign. It'll be a non-canon adventure where the party stops a multi-dimensional being trying to destroy reality where it's slowly revealed that he is an insane DM. The final battle will involve him tearing up the rulebook to disable the players and remove their abilities (while I literally rip up a 5e PHB in front of my players). When they get him close to 0, he's just going to incinerate the book and stand there monologueing at them forever since he is now the ultimate arbiter of rules in the universe. But that's when I hand out their old 4e character sheets and have their characters from our first campaign show up to the fight

I have a set of eldritch enemies called "Trespassers" that do reality-breaking things in-between campaigns. Any setting, any place, all sort of connected through my own personal autistic "multiverse" bs. Their aims are usually simple, as each is tied to a single concept; hunger, depravity, beauty, etc.

One in particular I made a couple of mechanics for a 5e battle. In this fight I don't try to go rules-lite, but instead rules-warped. For example, the fight takes place in a vaguely cavern-like area where the floor is a thick ice, chilling the room. When someone takes enough damage to go into negative HP (which is likely, as this boss is designed to be extreme overkill in terms of attacking, deliberately so) the person crashes through the floor and finds the world upside-down, the ice reforming immediately and leaving them standing on the other side of the "ice" in a place that is uncomfortably warm. The villain is reflected. Here all attacks heal the target. Using 5e's injury rules, being you get an injury on taking a crit or by hitting 0, you fight to put the enemy to exactly 0, whilst not doing so yourself or succumbing to growing numbers of crippling injuries.

Also in the fight are a few odd things, like using decks of cards to determine to-hit rolls, generally trying to fuck with the players (for example, the enemy chooses two numbered cards, one large and one small, then places one face-down in front of the party and they decide whether he uses that one or the other.)

>>54403631
I had something similar like that in an old campaign I played in.

>Villain's second in command has precognition, reads party's every move and counters it.
>No way to kill him during the fight because he's able to dodge/counter all attacks.
>Remember the abandoned subway we came in through, ST specifically said it was shaky and built below a river (So no explosives, heavy firearms, etc).
>The ST planned for us to get defeated since we usually fight everything and limp off and he was getting sick of us overpowering creatures of the night with good rolls.
>We're in the dead middle of the tunnel, tell our resident bomb expert to detonate his satchel of C4 (As was our main MO for dealing with creatures beyond our power, bomb them and shrug about collateral damage).
>Entire group swept away in a torrent of water along with SiC, we're rapidly being pushed back towards the villain's lair.
>Brute player manages to grab the SiC with a grapple and hold him under water until both of them pass out from suffocation.
>SiC dies before we can resuscitate him, Brute basically takes all but two ticks of aggravated damage and remains barely conscious for the rest of the night.
>ST calls the game for an hour while he attempts to figure out where to go with the story since we weren't suppose to actually gain entrance to the BBEG's lair yet.

It actually backfired because now we were trapped in the BBEG's lair long before we were suppose to face him with low supplies and an incapacitated team member.

>>54415261
Kind of sounds like the Famed Mimic Gogo

>Fight the guy with a timer running in the background.
>He does an action and expects you to mimic the action back to him.
>Gets mad and resets the fight if you don't do it, which doesn't reset the timer (And if it hits 0, everyone dies).

>If the player continues to not mimic after the fourth or fifth time reset, he just goes apeshit on the group and starts blasting rapid, high damage attacks at the players.

>>54423328
I think it depends on how you pull off the time-stop. Are characters completely unaware that it's happened, save for unexplained effects suddenly existing? It'll get called a JJBA reference, because it's a popular series, and that's exactly how Time Stop works there.
Alternatively, you could have the time freeze simply physically stop everything but the user. Fireball pauses mid-air, a thrown dagger hangs inches from the smirking villain's neck, but *everyone can see how fucked they're about to be.* If you really want to make sure it's not a Jojo ripoff, give him a pervasive clock motif - moves in instant jerks with precision (out of combat, tends to move once a second save for talking), fill the lair with pendulums and gears, put the fight in a room with a giant clock-face-esque dial with obelisk in the middle so he can teleport from one "hour" to another at the cost of 1 move. Make him a Nox knockoff, and he won't be a Dio one.

>>54421677
Honestly, that sounds terribly un-fun.

>>54403989
creative =/= enjoyable, funny, well written, well designed, all of the above. The game itself is crispy fried puke down to the cocking mitochondria and anyone who likes it should neck themselves for having such shit taste. Nice soundtrack, mind.

>>54423294
They kind of can. That's entirely their jig.

Make your players fight against the narrator/DM/yourself, it hads some extra mindfuck into the setting.
Nothing is more grim than fighting against the beeing that actually constructs the world around you.

>>54428947
Not that anon, but I found it enjoyable and even a little funny (I'm a sucker for bad puns). The storyline's pretty meh, and most of the characters aren't that great, though - Mettaton should've stayed with his boxy personality, rather than what happened after you flip his switch, and pretty much everyone else but the skeletons and a couple NPCs are unremarkable or grating.
Overall, though, I think the game's biggest flaw was how damn slow and bloated it could feel. On Pacifist, you find yourself wishing monsters just wouldn't show up after one appearance; similar on Neutral, but with the addition of "why does Fight make me play a minigame." And Frisk could stand to walk about 3x their speed.
A lot of people say it's shitty for a bullet hell, but I don't think it was designed for the bullet hell audience; it seems more like it's just the only thing TobyFox could think of as a battle minigame to be slightly more interesting than your standard RPG interface. As such, it doesn't really seem like "shitty bullet hell" is a good criticism any more than "WH40k is a shitty casual party game" - yeah, it's not incorrect, but there are more useful things to say about it.

>>54423397
>>54424905
>>54415911
Main question is:
Could my villain give feeling of someone who's both ultrawise and borderline retarded at same time? Like Buddha with down syndrome.

>>54430325
yeah, give him a "mad prophet" swing, raving dirty old man that went crazy from peeking behind the veil.

>>54415365
Dynamite like a laserbeam, guaranteed to BLOW YOUR MIND

>>54423294

they're powerful enough to whoop caine's ass into pure oblivion

>>54426699
I dunno I figure that if everything stopped except for the time stopper the PCs wouldn't be able to perceive what was happening and I wanted it to not be obvious at first and leave them guessing I guess because I like to leave my BBEG not obvious at first glance.

>>54431029
Nothing wrong with that; it'll just give more credence to the "boss is a Jojo expy" theory.

>>54431122
Not her but I'd take a Jojo expy over a cheap Batman villain any day

>>54431212
>her
REEEEEE
i have weeny!

>>54386120
I did this once. We started as a 3.5 campaign and midway through translated to 5e. They thought it was one contiguous world, but nope: different timelines. Well, the villain was actually the character from the 3.5 world, who had traveled back in time. The players thought it was just a regular fight, then he started using abilities and feats from 3.5 and the players flipped out. It was one of my prouder moments in that campaign.

>bulk of the campaign is on roll20
>mail players plane tickets
>last session is in the IRL real world
Would you?

>>54429094
>>54430474
I dunno what caine you're talking about but the biblical one is basically cursed to wander the earth forever
Not sure he could be harmed in any way and if poofed away he's be brought back by god

>>54431733

In WoD, he's also the primogenitor of vampires. As such, he is by far the most powerful of them. In addition, I'm pretty sure he still has the same "protection" that Biblical Cain does.

What if the main villain is controlled by Twitch?

>>54403888
>Having characters use gear and spells that are simply outside of your setting (but which still have rules) is the best way imo.
What about characters that jump from campaign to campaign as long as said campaigns have the same players? That way you can do the same thing but give that character a arc where they start off as "dangerous setting hopping wizard" to "setting hopping mage rambo mixed with Quantom Leap" from all the stuff he's collected.

>>54403658
>>if a player metagames how high the AC of the villain is, it suddently gains one AC against that player's character

How will you know? I keep track of what people rolled and whether it hit to figure out enemy AC all the time but I don't say anything out lout about it.

>>54431670
Fuck yeah
If you don't show up in full plate with a big fuck off sword and make them fight you you're doing it wrong

Talking stops being a free action.
Conversation last more than 5-10 seconds, villain gets to act.

>>54430441
ANY TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME

>>54431733
>>54431936
You need to realize that Archmages are beings capable of throttling all of existence. Caine just isn't on that scale.

It would be more appropriate to discuss 'Archmage vs God' than this.

>>54431936
caine being the strongest vampire doesn't necessarily mean he's the strongest player in the setting

>>54433447
true magic is explicitly above blood magic as well. the former is dynamic while the latter is linear.

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>>54428947

It might not be to your personal taste, and that's fine. I'm not a massive bullet hell fan and i was pretty 'meh' on it until i'd actually finished my first run and took a look back on it.

But there's a difference between saying 'I dont like this game' and 'My opinion is the right one, against pretty the opinion of pretty much every professional and unprofessional critic of the medium, and the vast majority of people who have played it, and basically everyone in the world without a tire iron in their skull'.

Basically, if you want to argue Undertale is a bad game you're provably wrong. By every measurable metric, its considered a good game.

Maybe if you walk into a room a loudly anounce that you smell shit, and you're the only one, you should ask yourself if you're the one who smells like shit.

>>54386175
Reminds me of the MtG card where you and another player play a mini-match under the table using your discard pile as your deck

>>54434552
Enter the Dungeon was inspired by Sharahazad, which does the same except does not require you to play it under a table.

It's one of the most hated cards for pretty much precisely the reason why the Sharahazad in the story lived for so long.

>>54386120
Malkuth from The Games we Play comes to mind, he can change the formulas that govern the physical world, he can change his energy recovery formula in one turn to get back to full and then change his attack power in the next but his energy recovery formula goes back to normal, he can only maintain one change at a time.

>>54393015
You could have a situation where the players are encountering some Elder Thing and spill ink on their character sheet to represent them going insane.

>>54393771
Isn't this literally just the plot of Lego Movie?

>>54396799
Imagine a final boss that deleted your save if you lost, so you had to start the game over again to get another shot at him.

Basically adding surprise permadeath into a non-permadeath game.

>>54434487
People liking something make that thing good? Wasn't aware quality was democratic.

>By every measurable metric, its considered a good game
Well no one said it wasn't *considered* a good game. Obviously it is.

And I hate this "oh how dare you think your opinion is correct" bullshit that seems like such a popular argument now. Why would you not think your opinion is correct? You clearly think your opinion is correct (you said that "basically everyone in the world without a tire iron in their skull" liked it and therefore it was probably good) but when he does something comparable (saying someone has shit taste if they think it's good) you write a long post lambasting him for something you did and then assert your own opinion as "probably" fact.

I haven't played this game and literally have no opinion on it but go fuck yourself.

>>54433447
>>54434218

I don't play (or even like) WoD stuff, but I've picked up a bit of the lore through exposure. Anon asked who Caine was, is all.

It's nice to know that casters are OP no matter the setting though.

>>54433447
You need to realize that doesn't matter in the slightest.

The divine always trumps the arcane. God has said Caine will wander cursed forever, and that's exactly what he does regardless of what anyone else says or does.

>>54435256
Jesus Christ tg stop being extra autistic today

>>54435433
To be fair, caine would probably be incredibly thankful if some mage could just end his eternal suffering
if it could be done it already would have been

>>54435460
>today

>>54435433
That would be God's power. Not Caine's.

Point is moot regardless, as an Archmage can effectively bypass the Seven-Fold Curse. Or downright remove it with Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6.

>The divine always trumps the arcane
I'd usually agree with you, if nor for the prevalent nod in Ascension that 'God' might just be a primordial mage.

>>54435462
The Spheres can delete Vampirism, but it requires Archmastery.

See >>54435628
Six dots of Prime being the necessity. It can also unmake all manner of divine shenanigans, be it blessing or curse.

>>54435628
God is the DM.

If the DM wants to trump archmage's, he will.

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>>54435871
Ok? I'm just mentioning that it might not be the case, lore-wise. Archmages have no real upper limit, in terms of potential. That's entirely the point of their existence.

Game-wise? You do what you want, it's your story. I will never argue against such.

>>54408339
>Tusk impales things
>scary monsters turns things into scary monsters If you saw a dinosaur irl you'd be scared shitless too
>The hand has a hand

>>54435518
I said EXTRA autistic

>>54424905
FFV gogo is an asshole.
now, FFVI gogo? that guy is the real mvp.

>>54435871

are you only saying this because of your apparent bias? anon's argument seems pretty evident and conclusive.

>>54436014
>Harvest harvests coins
>Nut King Coal unscrews nuts
>Black Sabbath is a black shadow at least

>>54436061
I'm that autistic everyday tho

>>54436095
Condolences.

>>54436083
Maybe you haven't noticed it yet, but WoDfags are screeching autists. Especially those partial to Masquerade.

Trench coats and ball tight jeans come with the territory.

>>54436239
>Maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm psychotically offended by WoD and choose to believe that this is yet another instance of my personal enemy.
It's actually an instance person giving a generic stock answer that doesn't actually involve the lore being discussed.

>>54436086
Well, getting stabbed with a Stand Arrow is certainly a religious experience as well

>>54435256
People hate you and the guy you're defending because you're basically just like that Armond White guy that, without fail, rates almost every Disney, Pixar, and other smash blockbuster hit movies poorly on Rotten Tomatoes while giving good reviews to things like Boss Baby, thus preventing movies like Toy Story 3 and Zootopia from getting 100% positive ratings for reasons that sound like they were written by someone who didn't even watch the movie in question.

>>54386120
The only GM I've had try this made an annoying gaggle of anime-tier uber assassins with so much bullshit spurting out their collective ass that actually killing one was less of an accomplishment and more knowing the GM had decided it was time to throw the players a bone/actually move the plot along.

Gosh, so many cool suggestions in this thread, but my group would completely sperg out no matter how well done this would be

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>>54386120
You can do it, but your players are gonna have a bad time.

>>54431670
Adam?

>>54386120
I did something like this in my old high-level DnD 3.5 game. Party encountered Far Realm entities several times, and each of the encounters was particularly terrifying, because this entities, not belonging to the Multiverse, were not completely bound by its laws. So they were able to break some rules, and it freaked characters (who, being high level optimized casters played by veteran players knew this rules very well both IC and OOC) out. The dramatic effect was increased because in all other cases I strictly followed game rules (except several minor houserules, which were discussed before the game).