/4eg/ - D&D 4e and 4e-like General: Hot-Blooded Wuxia Action

And just to get things going again, here's the post with the "Shugenja" that seemed well received in concept.

>>54354803
>SHUGENJA
>Role: A leader with a side of either melee striker or defender (or maybe ranged controller)
>Stats: Wisdom primary, with either Dex (Yin, defender/controller) or Strength (Yang, striker) secondaries.

>Class Features:
>Unarmored Defense: Get WIS to AC when wearing cloth armor, or something along those lines

>Flow of Yin: this class feature gives you a power that's the Shugenja's Healing Word equivalent. Minor >action, more range than HW, probably a bit weaker in exchange for being usable more frequently, and >using it gives you a Yin point. The more Yin points you have, the stronger your Yang effects.

>Surge of Yang: Gives you a power that grants an ally some kind of attack buff, I was also thinking it might >allow the target to mark an enemy or grant them temp HP or something. Gives you a Yang point. Same >as Yin, the more you have built up the stronger the opposite is.

>Harmony: When your Yin and Yang are at the same level, you gain some sort of bonus - maybe apply >your Wisdom bonus to things twice instead of once, apply both Flow of Yin and Surge of Yang at once, etc.

>Nature of Yin or Nature of Yang: Choose one, Yin is based on Dex and gives you a defender/controller >flavor, while Yang is based on Str and gives you a striker feel.

>Powers: The powers for the class would also manipulate your Yin and Yang levels. Riders would be a >major part of most powers and depend on your Nature, while their strength might be determined based on >your Yin or Yang point level.

>Basically, you have your yin and yang and raising or lowering them as you feel the need to kick ass or >help allies. You should be trying to achieve harmony most of the time without it being too easy to do so. >Your power will increase over rounds as your yin or yang build up.

And I just posted a 4e thread a bit ago anon. Oh well.

>>54381470
Oh my bad, I didn't see one when I checked the catalog.

>>54381554
It's all cool anon. This one works better since it has the Shugenja info in it already. Thanks for that.

>>54381554
>>54381563
You guys made them at the exact same time. One hour and 26 mins ago for both threads.

Incidentally I'm working on some more ki stuff to post.

>>54381589
Tried writing up my take on the Shugenja's HW power. Hows this look?

Flow of Yin
Shugenja Utility

Encounter (Special) healing
Minor Action
Close burst 6 (12 at 11th level, 18 at 21st level)
Special: You can use this power three times per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power four times per encounter.
Target: You or one ally in the burst.
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain 1d4 additional hitpoints.
Level6: 2d4 additional hitpoints
Level11: 3d4 additional hitpoints
Level16: 4d4 additional hitpoints
Level21: 5d4 additional hitpoints
Level26: 6d4 additional hitpoints
Special: Gain 1 point added to your Yang pool. (2 points at 11th level, 3 points at 21st level)

>>54381866
>>Special: Gain 1 point added to your Yang pool. (2 points at 11th level, 3 points at 21st level)

Sorry meant to write Yin.

>>54380584
There's an actual D&D 4e Wikia that's trying to gather all of the crunch & fluff in one place, but struggling due to lack of support, so just giving it a shoutout for all 4e fans:

http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/D%26D4_Wiki

On a different thread, what are your favorite races from 4e, and what did you like about them? Extra points for races that changed between editions.

My short list would probably be...

Gnolls: For finally getting fluff that made them out as something more than just tougher, hairier orcs.

Shadar-kai: Because they went from being elitist asshole faeries from the shadow world to an awesome bunch of post-humans.

Dragonborn: For finally being a corebook, no-hassles, thematically strong, awesome dragon PC race.

Shardminds: For being one of the most unique races in D&D since Basic gave us races like the Aranea.

Forgeborn Dwarves: For being an awesome new spin on dwarves and truly cementing the lore tying dwarves, giants and the "elemental pseudo-dwarves" together.

Tieflings: For shaking off the generic "bastards of the lower planes" fluff and standing up as something that can realistically be included in any non-Planescape setting.

Genasi: For embracing the transmutational aspects of the elemental chaos.

Deva: Because rogue angels who gave up the heavens to live amongst mortals is a damn awesome bit of fluff.

Goblins/Kobolds: For finally getting statblocks that didn't gimp a player lured in by the neat fluff.

Vrylokas: Because "living vampire" is an awesome race idea for a dark fantasy setting.

>>54381909
Also trying my hand at the Surge of Yang power.

Surge of Yang
Shugenja Utility

Encounter
Minor Action
Close Burst 6 (12 at 11th level, 18 at 21st level)
Special: You can use this power three times per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power four times per encounter.
Target: You or one ally in the burst.
Effect: You gain a +1 bonus to your next attack roll or saving throw before the end of your next turn, and you may mark an adjacent enemy as a free action.
Special: Gain 1 point added to your Yang pool. (2 points at 11th level, 3 points at 21st level)


Using the cleric as my reference as far as leaders go.

>>54382075
Is there a point in splitting the effect and special lines? It's not like this power can miss.

>>54382232
probably not. just posting it as I had come up with it.

>>54381909
I loved 4e's consistant stance on taking monstrous races and giving them some attention as sympathetic potential players. I've always loved Gnolls, Orcs, Kobolds, Goblins and the like but too often it feels like they're given the bare minimum of a stat block and then treated as a monster in every other mention. Gnolls really stand out in 4e for me. I liked the Vryloka, Revenant and Shade as playable takes on traditional undead, even if they seem pretty divisive. I love that the hundred or so elven subraces all fit under the split brackets of Elf and Eladrin, and each has a more defined theme as a result. Also big fan of the Genasi getting lots of love and a bunch more variants.

>>54381866
>HW power

What?

>>54382421
Healing Word.

Since Shugenja is a leader, it needs a healing power.

>>54382437
oh derp, I see where >>54380613 said

>the Shugenja's Healing Word equivalent

now

I'm not actually that into manga and anime and all that. Can someone explain to me what ki is, because I looked it up and I don't really get how we got from "qì or ch'i...an vital force forming part of any living thing...'material energy', 'life force', or 'energy flow'" to punching people in the face and healing people. Also apparently you can get "stronger" ki by training, and especially by spiritual growth. So how do I go from "I should be a good person" to "I will punch them with my goodness"

>The practice of qigong is an important component in both internal and external style Chinese martial arts. Focus on qi is considered to be a source of power as well as the foundation of the internal style of martial arts (Neijia). T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Xing Yi, and Baguazhang are representative of the types of Chinese martial arts that rely on the concept of qi as the foundation. Extraordinary feats of martial arts prowess, such as the ability to withstand heavy strikes (Iron Shirt, 鐵衫) and the ability to break hard objects (Iron Palm, 铁掌) are abilities attributed to qigong training.
>Demonstrations of qi or ki are popular in some martial arts and may include the immovable body, the unraisable body, the unbendable arm, and other feats of power.

>>54382608
Uhm... Probably the typical excuse - self-defense, which is really the point of martial arts. Naturally, in a world like PoL, a whole load of things could attack you.

>>54382750
No, I mean, like...

Right, fire magic for example, lets you create fire.

Divine magic is power granted to you by the gods.

Ki is...what? Can I use "earth ki" and "fire ki"? Is there "demon" ki? Can I attack others ki directly, can I make a ki field to protect my allies?

It's just not something I'm familiar with. The most exposure I have is a half dozen random episodes of DBZ.

>>54382608
Putting aside the fact that Ki is about as related to Anime and Manga as Norse Mythology is to American comic books, the problem here is that the real world's concept of Ki does not work in the context of D&D 4e.

If Ki is defined as a vital force inherent to every living being, it could be said that pretty much everyone uses Ki by default. As far as this definition of Ki as a Power Source goes, it is basically synonymous with the Martial Power Source and the "world's antibody against the Far Realm" interpretation of Psionics.

Afaict, the current definition of "Ki" this general is basing its ideas on is "Asian stuff".

>>54383014
Martial - Physical
Psionic - Mental
Ki - Spiritual
Primal - borrowing from natural spirits
Divine - borrowing from higher powers
Shadow - tapping into decay and darkness
Arcane - reality hacks

So to me, Ki is *necessary* to complete the body-mind-spirit triangle.

>>54383137
>Ki - Spiritual
Right, and where do you get "spiritual" from?

There is nothing inherently spiritual about Ki. Ki is natural. You can improve your Ki by just plain training your bollocks off.
Ki is usually only spiritual when viewed through the lens of a culture not familiar with the idea. And even then there's the problem that "spiritual" as a term is ill-defined, as it can be synonymous with "psychological", "mystical" and "religious". And can the body-mind-spirit triangle even be taken as a base assumption in 4e? What even is "spirit" in 4e, or more specifically, PoL?

What I'm saying is, we need some sort of definition that makes sense in the context of 4e's default assumptions and that most people can interpret similarly.

>>54380584
I really liked the idea one anon had about ki classes being mechanically defined by having powers with after effects. Like the five point palm exploding heart technique and Kenshiro's pressure point attacks, martial arts is full of opening and finishing moves.

A leader could give a buff that grants a heal when an ally makes a save against it.
A striker could inflict a debuff that grants extra damage on their next attack.
A controller could grant a worse condition after their target saves from the first.

Their powers would all be an at-will strength set-up for a much more powerful attack on their next turn.

It has it's glaring weaknesses, like being unable to control when your big effect happens and often requiring two attack rolls to land a daily or encounter, but that just means you can make their powers more interesting to compensate.

>>54381909
>Vrylokas: Because "living vampire" is an awesome race idea for a dark fantasy setting.
I used to think this was a silly, redundant race, but then I played a vryloka thaneborn barbarian and never looked back

Beyond that, Dragonborn and Tiefling getting all that love in the fluff really raised them to favorite races status

>>54382608
It's a mystical energy analogous to magic. Pretty much anything you can think of involving magic can be plausibly reflavored to be accomplished using ki, down to blasting fire from your hands or flying through the air.

You get a lot of 'punching dudes in the face' because that's part of the Oriental flavor, but the general idea is that it's magic drawn from the self rather than from external sources.

>>54384374
Almost like psionics even

>>54385629
Shhh, nobody likes psionics.

But reall,y if you want to say that, then every power source might as well be "magic"

>>54385775
It is
The difference of each magic was already explained. It is just a matter of not thinking "magic = arcane".

>>54386117
Well then Ki makes just as much sense as the others

Of ardents, skalds and charisma clerics, which have the best striking potential? Had my heart set on barbarian but the party needs a front-line leader and a face.

>>54386605
Lazylord.

How do I encourage 5e babby's to play a 4e campaign?

They've never researched / seen / played it, yet they fell for the "Everyone hates so it must be bad." meme.

>>54387782
That's a lost cause.
Even if you do somehow get them to play, they'll insist on playing it as if it were 5e and then cry how it's bad.

>>54387782
Maybe have them play Strike first? You can even go "fuck the non-combat section" and literally use 4e's skills and whatnot (not that "whatnot" is much more...), hand them the skill list and say "pick any 4-5 skills, I don't give a shit." and then go with it.

If they like the core mechanics and want more, they can play 4e. Switching systems is a bit of work, but, meh.

Even if you do convince them to play 4e, they'll go in thinking it'll probably be bad, which can influence their view and the actual game. Strike can avoid that because it isn't labeled "DnD 4e". Or maybe you can just tell them "guys pls 4e is kind of cool, try it out? Y'all trust me, right? We can stop after a few sessions if y'all really hate it" and if they're all reasonable they can maybe at least try it out.
I do know people can get absurdly attached to systems, though.

>>54386605
I really like forward thinking cut with Ardent.

You could even do a Barbarian|Ardent hybrid with it and be pretty damn good IIRC.

>>54387782
Make some premade simple essentials characters, print out all the power cards and explain it to them as trying out a new system. The 4e and 5e out of combat experience is so similar it's not worth worrying about, you want to sell them on the combat, if they like it enough you can then graduate them to full classes. 4e as it is right now is very overwhelming to just new players, let alone players who have a stigma against it. Your best chance is to ease them in with essentials, as much as they're criticised on these threads, they're still good introductory classes.

>>54388337
I don't think essentials classes are necessary, just premade characters. I'm currently playing in a party with two players who are not mechanics-oriented at all, so I pretty much built their characters and on level up present them with the 2 or 3 most optimal options for them to take and only let them choose from those. It works pretty well.

>>54386605
Rogue|Bard, wielding a dagger. You can really balance it out.

>>54391384
You could do half elf thief (or other Basic Attack striker), grab the skald multiclass to have the aura, and then equip yourself with a skald at-will stance using the half-elf. Most likely the temp HP one.

Actually pretty fun with Hunter, now that I think about it.

>>54391467
Yeah, you theoretically can, but Rogue|Bard's a lot better.

You're right that you can do a lot of cool stuff with the Half-Elf Skald at-will trick - I like doing it on a Warlock|Warlord.

>>54385775
I really liked psionic monks. I never really liked psionics until it was bundled with them, then I realized the whole thing was just eastern mysticism an not just psychic mutants

>>54389061
A risk of premades is that it doesn't invest them into the characters, which makes them care even less.

You can, however, easily avoid that by asking for their intents and goals and what they want, and then you just build that as close as possible for them.

It would definitely help.
Also, as a basic GM tip in 4e and it was mentioned in another thread, but the way 4e exposes so much mechanics so plainly towards the players CAN "erase" the idea that it's still an RPG and fluff & description & whatnot are fun parts of the game (and can very easily still exist in 4e) and then as such they might revert solely to mechanics-based play...so just be at least slightly aware of that with new, hesitant 5e players

>>54395137
I guess I should have been more specific, but I agree with this. I found out what the other players wanted for their characters in broad strokes before building them.

>>54387782
Theme it up as a one-shot blast from the past time warp games night, and take a premade adventure and some premade characters. Treat it like you're teaching the game for the first time, try not to reference 5e or other editions. They'll be slow in the first encounter, but will be 'what, wow!' when they see their HP and that they all have tons of powers. Get them hooked with a cool short story, and they'll be faster for the second encounter and start looking at combos they can do. If you don't have them hooked on the gameplay in addition to the usual D&D roleplaying stuff by the third encounter, they're probably not interested in general with tactical games.

>>54387782
Gammaword was republished when 4e was still the current shit. It uses 4e mechanics, but simplifies it down to be easier to understand, and there's very little to choose as you level.
This isn't a bad thing, as it's meant to be a short, zany adventure with crazy combinations of mutants.
After a night of that, ask if they want something with a bit more depth, and then show them real 4e.
They'll be sad they can't play a telepathic yeti or a sentient school of fish but they'll adapt.

>>54396950
>you can't play a telepathic yeti or a sentient school of fish in 4e
Bugbear battleminds and swarm druids would like a word

Why are Defenders the best role?

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>>54396950
>>54397006
Roll up your characters fellas
2d48 - I've never found a pdf for any of the books but I have them here to photo if people want to know what their character would play as.

1. Android
2. Cockroach
3. Doppelganger
4. Electrokinetic
5. Empath
6. Felinoid
7. Giant
8. Gravity Controller
9. Hawkoid
10. Hypercognitive
11. Mind Breaker
12. Mind Coercer
13. Plant
14. Pyrokinetic
15. Radioactive
16. Rat Swarm
17. Seismic
18. Speedster
19. Telekinetic
20. Yeti
21. A.I.
22. Alien
23. Arachnoid
24. Cryokinetic
25. Ectoplasmic
26. Entropic
27. Exploding
28. Fungoid
29. Gelatinous
30. Magnetic
31. Mythic
32. Nightmare
33. Plaguebearer
34. Plastic
35. Prescient
36. Reanimated
37. Shapeshifter
38. Simian
39. Temporal
40. Wheeled
41. Antimatter Blaster
42. Demon
43. Octopoid
44. Photonic
45. Reanimator
46. Regenerator
47. Saurian
48. Vampiric

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Rolled 38, 45 = 83 (2d48)

>>54398324
Lets see~

Rolled 14, 15 = 29 (2d48)

>>54398324

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>>54398410
>Radioactive Pyrokinetic
"Some Like It Hot"

Rolled 17, 46 = 63 (2d48)

>>54398324

Rollan for Dolan

>>54399622

>Seismic Regenerator

No idea what that actually means, but it sounds like Kaiju levels of cool.

Question about the Offline Monster Editor

base package and the first update install ok, but the second and third ones pop up with an error message that says "7-zip: Internal error, code 105."

Any idea how to get them to install?

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>>54399659
You're made of rocks, cause earthquakes, and resist 5 physical damage, while also regenerating health. You're unkillable. A tiny terrasque.

>>54398274
Because 4e actually has viable mechanics for drawing the attention of foes and keeping it on them.

>>54398274
Because after years of playing tabletop RPG's and going "I wanna be the tanky one and help everyone survive by soaking hits" I finally got a mechanic to introduce threat to the game and several classes defined for this role

hey guys, i'm gonna play 13th age next week, never played that or 4e. what are the class tiers? light searching suggests barbarian is very weak.

>>54402567
I remember barbarian and druid being very weak. Classes are generally balanced for the first few levels, then things start to go a bit haywire.

>>54402567
Linear Martials, Quadratic Casters, as usual.

>>54400461

Take the Bullet and that 5 Physical Resist is a hell of a combo

Man, making a new defender is fucking hard.

>>54403007
what have you got?

>>54403101
Nothing so far. First of all I'm struggling to figure out how you defend someone else with kinda, thematically, and then I'm struggling to figure out a marking mechanic and a punishment mechanic that aren't copies of existing stuff.

>>54403136
Use something like Strike's Shieldbearer?

It can mark enemies with one of its powers, but it's mostly about selecting a dude to protect, instead of selecting an enemy to stop.

>>54403136
Defender that conjures minions that block movement and are generally annoying.

>>54403201
Isn't that a controller?

I mean, I know defenders are sorta controllers but...

>>54403207
There's classes that can conjure/summon things, but none of them attempt the defender role with them. Just like how there's many classes that hit things, but not all of them are defenders.

>>54403148

Pick an ally, all people attacking them are at -2 (Doesn't stack with marking)?

Not great at protecting the entire team but can protect from basically as many dudes as you want if you do it right.

>>54403223

I could see a defender who lays down a <Something> and it gives a small aura of difficult terraign/makes opportunity attacks.

Have them work differently to normal with summoning rules, so damage taken by the <Something> goes right out of your HP (That way they can be an every battle thing) BUT you have a small bit of resistance to attacks transmitted that way.

Combine that with REALLY low defences for a defender (Like cloth or something) but a bonus to the defence of your <somethings>. You get a defender who's very tough and can be in a few places...but if you can actually get up in his (real) face he is made of glass.

Are there any implement-based defenders? Swordmage sometimes uses an implement.

>>54403223>>54403276

Well maybe something like the necromancer idea then?

Has a Mark of Death. Does the usual mark things, but instead of punishment, it makes your summons target the guy with the mark.

One of your first level encounters summons 3 skeletons, if all 3 die you lose a surge. They always surround the target of your mark.

I understand that you don't get the runic stances if you create a hybrid runepriest without the rune master hybrid talent, but are still able to get the runic effects of your powers?

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>>54403308
>>54403276
>>54403223
>>54403201
What if it were a summoner who places conjurations.summons on the field, which then mark adjacent foes, or have an aura, or something. Some sort of inbuilt punishment mechanism like "if a marked opponent adjacent to your (summoned whatever) attacks a (not you or your summons), inflict (some sort of punishment)."

Shit, now I'm thinking of the Diablo 2 Necromancer, full skeleton-army mode. Maybe some not-explicitly-defender summons as encounters or dailies, like druids or artificers.

>>54403356

Sounds interesting, though I'd be very concerned about the possibility for effective HP bloat if they don't lose much by having the summons destroyed. Most summons are dailies to prevent that.

>>54403480
How about maybe having at-will summons that are minions (die in one hit) and you can only have 1 out at a time, encounters that take surges to use, and dailies that require a dead enemy to use?

>>54400374

Right click > Run as Administrator

Then make sure you direct them to the correct folder

>>54403504

I'd give them HP more like the Shaman's companion. So minions won't pop it but a Real Hit will.

Or just make it so that they all count as the Defender (Just in multiple places at once/a few bonuses). Using your own lifeforce to sustain them.

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>>54403480
>>54403504
Not the original anon, but following my necromancer theory here, yeah, I'd be looking at ways to mitigate the 'free hp buffer' effect.

Minion summon-markers for sure, and something, anything finding ways to cost surges or HP. I'd love the ability to bring out multiple skeletons though, just for that D2 feel. Maybe one per tier? I found Epic battlefields tended to get a bit bigger, as the enemies became larger, flying was less of a big deal, and the nature of battlefields was less about basement cellars and more about astral planes.

>>54403550
I think one power summoning 2 skeletons that DON'T mark/have aura works; they can flank someone so he can't shift+attack without punishment.

>>54403550
This could be addressed in terms of some paragon path options, focusing on different aspects of the class. One that focuses on a single powerful pet minion, another that allows regular summoning of smaller temporary ones. One based around blood draining, or enhancing battlefield control with bone manipulation

I'm just throwing ideas out because holy shit I love necromancers and we need a cool one in 4e!

>>54403550

I lean towards the 'Hitting the summon damages you' effect myself.

So you might have:

Skeleton Warrior: +3 to all defences, Resist All 1/3/5 (Based on tier).

A guy swinging at your skeleton body will be much less effective than stabbing you personally. Likely with 'For effects that would affect one or more summons, they are treated as a single creature. If a necromancer would generate an effect you instead nominate a single part of your group to be the origin of that effect'. That way a fireball hitting a few summons won't evaporate you as it can't double-tap.

>>54386117
It's not like arcane makes sense, anyway

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>>54403627
Nice catch on the double-tap; I like the 'shared life force' thing, but I'm also interested on a reminder of how Shamans played with their spirit, since we only had one of them, once, in any campaign I've been in. AFAIK they didn't share HP with the PC themself, but I don't remember it being a huge 5e-onion-druid level shitfest.

>>54403575
>>54403601
Yeah, maybe the multi-summon is better expressed through PPs, unique summons from powers (clay/blood/iron/etc golem, skeleton mages, etc).

>>54403760

Shaman summon didn't have HP. If it took more than X (Scaled with level) damage in a single hit, it popped. Made it so minions couldn't really kill it but non-minions could flatten it.

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>>54403812
Ah yep, I remember now. Still feel like sharing HP or surges in some way better fits a Defender (mechanically, thematically too I guess).

>>54403007
I have no idea where this anon is but I wanna thank them for sparking a cool discussion and reminding me how much I miss Diablo 2.

>>54403528
Thanks, that did it.

>>54403148
Where is it? I don't see it in the Strike! pdf I have

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>>54404287
It's playtest stuff.

Anyone else think it's weird that the Avenger isn't a Defender?

>>54404515
Yeah that always seemed a little odd to me

Just thinking about Defenders - OAs are one of my favourite things. Is there anything that can be done with them without being a Fighter?

>>54404935
Any martial class or multiclass has access to the weapon specific MBA boosting feats, you don't even need that for heavy blade opportunity, which is the prominent one.

>>54404935
Well, you got a lot of ways to get an OA mark punish (Berserker, PPs like Tactical Warpriest and Champion of Order).
And everyone Martial has access to Heavy Blade opportunity, for some extra fun.
Then you got... I think seeker has that power that lets you basically OA at range if the target moves, which is again, a pretty cool thing.

>>54405059
You don't need a Martial MC for HBO, dude.

>>54404935
Shadar Kai with Reaper's Touch, use Magic Missile as your MBA.

Don't do this

>>54405148
Top kek

>>54405148
>Magic Missile

good night sweet prince

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>>54403329
Can someone shed some light into this?

>>54405148
I have been thinking of a build using that, that PP (or was it ED) that lets you count as two races (Genasi/Shadar-kai) and Elemental empowerment on a bladesinger. Use Arcane Admixture to add Thunder to the magic missile, use Promise of Storm to add a damage roll to both your MBA and your melee attack (and hence, your strength), use Lotus Master Riposte to be really annoying.

Oi
Some weeks ago an anon asked us what to do with his players that were supposed to go do something with a ritual with a beholder in a city, but then ended up just resting, so what should be done?

He was given advice that the beholder's ritual should go through, and he take control of a noble that is important to the players (they needed him to go somewhere, iirc), and now guards would be sent to pursue the players.

What happened with that?

>>54402567
Don't play Ranger, Druid, Barb, or Pally and you're golden. Those four are mid/high tier five, but just about everything else you can build is tier 3 or 4.

>>54407479
He reported a few threads back; the beholder took control of the noble and imprisoned the characters. They dicked around a few days in prison (even after getting the keys handed to them by one of their shady connection), until one of them decided to go check on the mayor. He did and saw the mayor getting his dose of pixie dust or whatever the beholder is using as a reagent for the control.

That's all as far as I remember.

I'm working on a 4e-esque game, and an idea came up that seems cool but I feel could have problems associated with it.

Given similar (but not identical) mechanics to 4e, what issues could you see occurring from an At Will power that let you make a ranged attack as an Immediate Reaction, but required a Standard action before it could be used again?

The basic idea is a sidearm like a pistol crossbow or an actual pistol, snapping off a quick shot but having to reload it before being able to do so again.

>>54407640
It'd essentially be an encounter power. It's one of the "alternate power usage" mechanics I plan to use in my homebrew.

>>54407640
This is actually an entire class in both 13th age and Strike (which copied the 13th age class, as he heard from second-hand reports)
In 13th age it's the Occultist, in Strike it's the Psion.
In Strike, they would have to spend their Standard [Attack] Action to "Focus" and then their powers were a bunch of triggered actions - if the trigger happened, you'd expend focus and then cast the power (whether it be an at-will or enc power). If they never attacked during the round (and so never expended their focus), they just did a standard/"weak" hit at somebody nearby - so you wouldn't go an entire turn and do dick because you couldn't get a trigger off.


As a single power in a classes otherwise-normal set? It'd have to be some weird combo stuff to be a problem, because as described it's basically just a delayed standard attack which isn't exactly inherently broken. If it comes to battle pre-loaded, it's basically just a "weird" encounter power like a ranger or something might have (that is, an off-turn simple attack)

And weird combo stuff....nothing immediately comes to mind but frankly I am very lacking in knowledge.

>>54407837
I think he means you'd have the attack always set to prepared (like a loaded gun) you could just re-load it with a standard after use.

Which is sorta how ToB regaing maneuvers worked. It's a slightly more versatile version of an encounter power.

>>54407837

For context, we're playing with the idea of giving every weapon category it's own inherent At Will. This would be the At Will for one handed ranged weapons like pistols and pistol crossbows. We're considering not giving it +Stat to damage, as getting a free reaction attack once per encounter (as you'll always get one more attack than times you reload it) is a pretty powerful advantage.

>>54407935
Ah. Interesting. Removing +Stat to damage could be smart.
Can you attack normally once you've expended that "snap shot" At-Will?

Like if I go into battle with a pistol and then turn 1 RBA somebody and then Snap Shot a dude, can I RBA anymore, or do I have to reload my gun or swap to a different one first? Would I have to reload if I just didn't Snap Shot ever?

Because if you have to reload your gun first and there's a downside to swapping weapons (one that lowers your damage output, like an action to swap weapons or something), well, there's a "DPS-mitigator", too.

Otherwise, yeah, that extra attack in a fight puts its DPS higher than others, not having any of their abilities in mind. Plus an extra attack could always mean more things triggered, if you have stuff like that setup.

>>54403241
Don't know if viable. At first glance it seems (instead of one enemy -2 against every ally, every enemy -2 against one ally), but it could be OP against minions and under powered against Solos.

>>54408036

We'll probably stick with the assumption for most 4e powers, that loading the weapon is folded into it, so using Snap Shot wouldn't prevent you attacking normally with the weapon, just from using that specific power again.

Although you do bring up a possible problem, that someone could just carry a brace of pistols and enjoy lots of free attacks with no cost. We'll have to figure that one out.

>>54407260
Now if only I could add wizard's fury to it for minor action attacks...

>>54380584
I'm collecting the books and what do you guys think are the MUST have?
I've got Martial Power 1 and 2, the DMG, MM3, and all the PHBs

>>54407260
>>54409253
It was an ED, Reincarnate Champion. It requires you to be Primal, and makes you count as two other races. That said, it wouldn't technically have an added damage roll, I believe. Yeah, RIP Magic Missile.

On unrelated matters, I've been toying about with Half-Elf Hybrid|Hybrid MC Skald ideas for some very interesting results. All things considered, the most solid one is Warlock|Warlord following Sorcerer King.

>>54409580
All the PHBs, all the Powers books, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, Eberron Player's Guide, Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Dragon Magazine 399, Dragon Magazine 402, all the Heroes books, MM3, Monster Vault, all the DMGs (including the Essential's version), both Adventurer's Vaults. Most Dragon Magazines are useful just in general.

Thankfully, since that's a lot of things to cover, funin.space has the compendium for searching and their download section at funin.space/dl/4e has everything you'll ever need for 4e.

>>54409594
>That said, it wouldn't technically have an added damage roll, I believe. Yeah, RIP Magic Missile.

Not even with Arcane admixture + Promise of Storm?

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Arcane-Admixture.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Promise-of-Storm.html

>>54409865
Promise of Storm's bonus is extra damage - it's not part of the roll, it's separate, thus you do not get an extra damage roll

>>54407640
>>54407935
I think Reload as Minor Action could do.
If you need to reload everytime you shoot, either:
>(You)r Turn:
Standard Shot
Minor Reload
>Other Turn:
Reaction Shot
>(You)r Turn:
Minor Reload
Standard Shot
>Other Turn:
Can't Reaction Shot

So, either the character reloads to shoot in his turn, or as a reaction. If Reaction Shot doesn't add +Stat to damage and have some broad Triggers, it could be a worse Paladin Divine Challenge.

Is the guy working on the Shugenja still around. Wanted to know if he was going to post any more stuff for it

>>54409949
Was that FAQd somewhere?

I think the logic that extra damage is still part of the damage roll (I mean, you are rolling it and it's part of the damage you do) is passable, and I can't think anything it'd break off-hand, and is a very roundabout way of trying to make Magic Missile/bladesinger usable in a fringe build.

I think your ruling probably makes more sense, but I like my fringe builds...

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Thoughts on the Runepriest?

>>54410737

I'm enjoying playing one at the moment, even if their mechanics are weird and they have nowhere near enough support. There's a lot of moving parts and different bonuses to keep track of, but figuring out the best way to use their various abilities and buffs to help their allies is something I'm enjoying about the class.

>>54410737
I have a player that rolled one up.
The class is thematically interesting and very fun flavor. As mentioned, it doesn't have a lot of support, but that doesn't matter to the player or myself (I don't believe more books = better inherently).
In terms of use, it is clearly the end result of the accumulated expertise of the dev team, and is solid at being front/midline direct support in the vein of the warlord, but it really reminds of the cleric in execution.
The player has a lot of fun with it, fluffing out drawing runes on the ground and allies with a rod of copper, and scoring them into enemies with a pick because "God hates them".
She's really grown as a player, being quiet and unassuming when she first joined us, now she is completely bellicose in a battle and trades barbs with the avenger and cleric over "religious indignities and how they are doing it wrong"

>>54410490
Extra damage doesn't add an extra damage roll, else it could get really ridiculous real fast with a load of stuff.

>>54404515
It's a horror movie monster class. Why should it be a Defender?

>>54410244
Yep still here, just been busy the past couple of days and working on defender and controller before I flesh them all out. As >>54403007 noted, making a new defender is a pain.

>>54413217
The Avenger doesn't actually avenge anything. Should have been named "Shitstriker"

>>54413266
Presumably, what with him being a Divine class, he avenges whatever his god disagrees with

>>54413266

What are you talking about?

>>54413266
I feel that the Avenger exists only to fill the Divine Striker role the same way the Seeker exists.

A Divine Striker, IMHO, would be more like a DaemonHunter / Inquisitor / original-cleric-Van-Helsing.

>>54413969
Seeker doesn't fill any role that wasn't filled before its existence
Also, how is divine assassin different from a witch/demon hunter?

>>54413969
There's nothing stopping your Avenger from being exactly that

Now I just really want to play 4e.

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It might be because it's the first RPG I played, but I really like 4th edition's cosmology. It just seemed unique and refreshing to me at the time, and the feeling hasn't gone away.

Also the Underdark book has some creepy shit in it.

>>54413969

How is it NOT that? It's a good investigator, agile and ruins the shit of vampires?

>>54407016
Goin' out on a limb here: it looks like a dire warning that if you make fun of the sun, it will send down a lion to bite off everyone's dicks.

>>54414970
Lack of ranged attacks? Avenger's pretty fixated on wielding fuckhuge weapons, which is kind of an odd choice for the stealthy inquisitor type.

>>54414584
Tell me about it. I want to have more sympathy for the Planescape fans, but the Great Wheel is so *boring*. I keep saying this, but the Great Wheel really feels like it was mostly made to fill in a grid, whilst the World Axis feels like a mythology that somebody would actually tell to somebody else.

My friends and I want to try the system out in a one-shot.

What level should I start them at?

>>54415085
Truly wise words and wisdom passed down through the ages in runic tablet form. It amazes me that our ancestors of thousands of years were familiar with the concept of sunstroke and how weak it made us to fending off lions that desired to feast on our dicks.

Mythology has much to teach us.

>>54415114
Probably 1st, nice and simple and it's not 'apprentice' adventuring like other editions, you have a wide range of abilities right from day one in 4e. At most you might just tweak monster health to be a little lower and keep combats slim and fast as they learn how to read their abilities, how to combo attacks, and get confident in taking their actions :)

>>54415087

Well, they have a lot of implement attacks. Ranged and implement would be an odd choice.

I dunno, I think 'Shove something through the vampire's chest' before I think crossbows when I think vampire hunters. A stake and a fuckoff hammer to drive it into the chest is rather traditional.

>>54415288
Pretty sure he's just high on Diablo III or something of that ilk

>>54415106
Planescape is shit. Sigil is the only good part and even then it's only the Factions. Lady of Pain is meme-tier, etc.

>>54415288
>A stake and a fuckoff hammer to drive it into the chest is rather traditional.
Might've been cool to see a build focus on mixed two weapon fighting. Avengers with actual hammers and stakes running around getting bonuses for spiking things and then ramming them further in. Guess it would've stepped on ranger's toes too much though.

>>54415114
I'd say third, gets you a little bit more to play with in terms of Encounter, Utility, etc.

>>54415380

Yeah, it's why I think they passed on crossbows/daggers as weapons for them. It would have stepped on a rogue's toes a lot. 2 handed weapon doesn't really mess with either of the core weapon strikers.

>>54415114

I'd agree with >>54415402

It's a taste of options (2 encounters) without being overwhelming.

>>54415380
Iirc you can make a pretty OP dual-wielding crit fisher thanks to Oath of Enmity

>>54415114
Somewhere 1-3ish, yeah. One anon's right about having an extra encounter and a utility (especially if they can see and choose the distinction between a LV2 encounter or LV2 daily utility), but other anon is right in that you don't have to go full baby-mode at LV1, bc LV1 4e characters are ready and capable to save a town or a city from a threat.

Really, just go with how your group looks capable. If everything seems to click from a quick read, you can probably go for 2 or 3. If you're all new to D&D or struggling a bit, just make it easy and roll out at 1.

>>54415476
Another option I've used ssuccessfully in the past is to do the first encounter at level 1, then bump them to 3 midsession. If you have, say, three power options ready to go and just let them pick one, they get a couple of minutes to evaluate and then make a choice, and then use, it's pretty good for getting people into the system itself.

>>54415476
We've played Pathfinder for a year and 5e for a year. They're all curious about 4e, wanting to just give it a try.

>>54415561

They'll handle 3 fine then, yeah. I'd recommend 1 if they were wanting to try RPGs at the first time.

>>54415561

Do you have access to the offline character builder and know about funin.space?

>>54415601
Yeah. They asked me to build characters for them, it's just setting them up on roll20 takes a while.

>>54415679

I'd recommend making use of the various 4e handbooks and guides you find find with a quick googlesearch. I don't follow them, I tend to play in low optimisation games, but they do a good job of explaining why something is good, how classes are meant to work and any traps to avoid, so they're useful to read even if you aren't always going to pick the 'best' option by their metric.

>>54415714
This. I've played 4e a LOT, and even though we're not building things that solo entire encounters in 2 turns etc, it's still good to drop in on the charop guides for a quick 'yeah, this is how this works and why' skim.

The CharOp guides really should be mandatory reading because they tend to explain the why of some stuff - everyone can see why Come and Get It is good, but some attacks don't quite make sense until you realize how they fit in altogether.

>>54413246
Cool. If you want any help i'd be more than happy to assist. Got a google doc or anything?

Damn, toying about with Half-Elf Skaldism on people with MBAs is really fun, you end up with some interesting stuff. I feel I might make a build and post here.

>>54416385
Yeah I'll chuck it up in a day or two.

>>54417019
Ill do my best to keep the thread alive til then. And I'll keep my work saved til you post. trying to work out the class features of the shugenja atm give them flavor and how they interact. I have the class write up I could post if you like.

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So can anyone tell me just what essentials was? I played 4th when it started and I still could not for the life of me figure out just WHAT essentials was. was it 4.5 edition?

>>54417996
It was Mike Mearls strangling a baby

>>54417996
It was an attempt to create alternative, simplified class options for people who would prefer them, i.e. new players and/or 3.pf players. They're basically restructured core classes with less powers to select from and greater basic attack focus. Consequentially they were not well balanced past early levels, so they remained unused by 4e vets and failed to attract the lost 3.pf players, largely proving to be a waste of effort. Some classes were well thought out though, like mage, mostly because they did not fiddle with the standard class design as much.

The feats and other material released under the essentials title however was for the most part much better and universally compatible with all 4e material, so they saw plenty of use in CharOP builds.

Altogether the essentials title was only ever applied to like three books and they went back to mostly normal splats afterwards before canning 4e altogether.

>>54396950
It's my favorite incarnation of 4e by far, and I actually managed to get Pathfinder grognards interested in playing simply because of the tone and setting in general. Not to mention how it's one of the best examples of random but fair character generation that I have ever seen by making your character automatically competent in their primary attributes and skills.

>>54420565
>Pathfinder grognards

Is there anything more pathetic?

So I was just thinking about Ki classes, and I always liked how Channel Divinity was a sort of unifying class feature for the Divine Classes. Could there be something like that for the existing ones?

>>54410490
Extra damage dice isn't considered a roll explicitly to prevent flat damage powers from exploding. For Magic Missile it's no big deal, but think about all the various Zone powers that have a token minion popping effect, now with additional '+x to damage rolls' riders being tacked on.

That being said, there is the odd option that add a roll without technically being extra damage if you search hard enough. Vanguard Weapons, for example.

>>54420684
4e shills.

>>54420962
Thanks, that works. Now I'll merely have to pore over all the equipment.

>>54420684
Let's not stoop to their level. No reason to do that in our own general.

>>54421011
The hardest part about post-errata Magic MIssile optimization is that it technically never hits nor misses. A large majority of options key off of a hit.

>>54421096
The number of buffs that pattern off of neither a roll nor a hit are few and far between, and this was on purpose.

Personally, I didn't see the need to change the spell in the first place.

>>54421171

It was a very nice basic attack to start.

>>54402854
Those are higher-level I believe. I'd have to dig thru the books again, but yeh, you rolled exceptionally tanky.

>>54421178
The change seems a relic of an time when 4e was trying to sway a group of players it was never going to win over, while alienating its existing fans in the process.

The new Magic Missile is the purest form of arcane supremacy. The Wizard need not strike the target of his ire; he simply wills their health away and the world reshapes itself to his desire.

>>54421178
As a DM I let my players pick whichever one they want to use (if at all). I respect the reboot to Magic Missile's "always hits" as a safe minion-popper or minor action extra-damage with that daily, but I mean, 4e was dead serious about its to hit and damage *rolls*.

>>54421178
but why does a wizard need an RBA?

You can't opportunity attack with an RBA, so the only use it will see is if it's granted by a leader, but then, why is the leader granting a wizard an RBA and not a striker?

>>54421497
Well, for the build idea in >>54407260 it'd be pretty handy.

>>54421497

if you read through the monster manuals and the DMG, you will find that there are a not-insignificant number of conditions and situations in which only a RBA can be used. It isn't useful until it is. Similarly, if you look at the range, you will notice it is a good bit further than nearly every other ranged magic attack, which is nice. I mean, it's no "superior crossbow" range, but still. Quite nice.

There were reasons to take it over other options pre-retcon.

>>54421497
Because sometimes the Striker is melee and can't RBA for shit, and the 20 range on MM is nuts compared to most other options.

Then you get into the wonderful world of cross-class options. Spitting Cobra Stance is hilarious, especially before they nerfed it to Immediate action.

>>54421497
Things like Hail of Steel, and just about every "grant a free Basic Attack for whatever reason" attack in situations where it won't hamper your Striker.

Really, just having a basic attack is REALLY nice. Besides, if it's an attack with a hit line (like it was before), suddenly you skip the roll part entirely and it can get quite insane.

Oh, and Hybrid Lazylord gains access to a bunch of stuff, pretty useful. Is it possible to do a Lazybard/Hybrid Skald that doesn't roll for Skald powers?[/spoiler

So this Ki defender thing is actually really bothering me. I feel sure there must be a way to make one, but what I can't get around is how he would mark people and punish them.

A fighter "mark" is just his skill. Swordmages "mark" with arcane magic, Paladins use divine magic, Wardens nature magic. But I'm not into kung fu and anime and all that to know of any sort of equivalent.

Are there are examples in myths or media where someone uses Ki to protect others?

>>54421714
Maybe lean on the mobility theme that Monk has and have the Ki defender push/pull/slide a lot? Protect your allies by shoving them out of the way, pushing enemies out of range, etc.

>>54421714
I would go full mystic with it. Use a Karma thing, like receiving the damage done as retribution/Karma biting back the enemy.

>>54421865
That's basically the Battlemind Mind Spike though, and it's already kinda shitty as a mark punishment.

>>54421714
Earthbenders from the AtlA homebrew?

I could easily imagine a blindfolded monk standing next to an ally and deflecting enemy attacks/catching arrows using his superior senses and mystic ki abilities.

>>54421920
Nah, Mind Spike does this:

>Immediate Reaction
>Melee 1
>Trigger: An adjacent enemy marked by you deals damage to your ally with an attack that doesn’t include you as a target
>Target: The triggering enemy
>Effect: The target takes force and psychic damage equal to the damage that its attack dealt to your ally.

I'm actually not clear on why it's considered a bad mark punishment. It's not amazing on its own, but it's one of the three abilities a Battlemind has and it can reflect some serious numbers.

>>54421953
The damage is low on Blaster/Controller type enemies.

>>54421953
>like receiving the damage done as retribution/Karma biting back the enemy.
>Effect: The target takes force and psychic damage equal to the damage that its attack dealt to your ally.
Did I misinterpret the original idea?

Mind Spike kinda sucks because you have zero punishment if the attack misses, which is what they might be already inclined towards since they have the -2 from the mark. It significantly reduces the catch-22 that defenders try to maintain, since NPCs have more HP to soak damage anyways.

>>54422008
I guess I was thinking of it being taken by the tank, not the target

>>54422008

That and it is zero use against a guy doing no damage but dominating your ally.

Do DBZ-style Ki auras have the power to hurt enemies? I have an idea...

>>54422049
They do if you say they do. Spiritual pressure killing/subduing enemies is sort of a weeaboo trope.

>>54422049
Not really?

My idea for the Ki defender is a bit weird - it's essentially tampering with the "spiritual balance" of the target, de-estabilizing him and his confidence. You could have the two build variants have different effects; one might make him an easier target, leaning Leader, the other might make him lose the will to fight more, kind of like a controller.

>>54421714
Play on the 'steel body' trope maybe, have an auto-mark aura like wardens and have an interrupt that grants allies a bonus to their defenses if they get attacked as the ki defender stands in the way.

>>54391384
Can you explain this setup more?

>>54422625
Many good Bard leader powers don't really require a rider (many others do, though). Rogues generally like Daggers, and they're useful for being able to be Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons and Implements. Rogue and Bard both share a controller subrole, and quite a few Rogues like Charisma. Dex-Cha races are plentiful. Guildmaster Thief (Rogue PP) has two really nice things in Guildmaster's Action (Action Points become shared by the group, really useful if you've someone with a great AP use) and Thick as Thieves (+Charisma modifier to damage if flanking an enemy with you). The powers are quite useful, all in all. It's also a great fit for MCing Warlord.

Essentially, you're a very high damage Striker thanks to things like the Rogue's minor action attacks and way later Quickened Spellcasting, you have a decent amount of heals thanks to being a Bard, and you can get plenty of bonuses for your allies as well as decent enabling (Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade comes to mind), plus the Bard's dailies are all sorts of crazy awesome, and just in general how the Bard can rearrange the battlefield. You also should pick up Artful Dodger as your Hybrid Talent because it's fun to be able to use Ranged attacks in Melee range.

I should probably do a cleaner write-up later, but the idea of how the Bard could be used for a Ranged Striker isn't mine, it's from MwaO's Annie Oakley build - I just adapted it to the Rogue and made it more Leader-like.

>>54421714
Idk, maybe things like immobilize, stun and slow. You sometimes see martial artists with some crazy attack that stops opponents from moving. Tack on a little bit of damage if they do move and youve got a decent defender. it could also work well with monk mobility since they could run in, stun or immobilize the opponent, and run out. Leaving the baddie to be ranged by allies or just simply thrown to the wayside until a subsequent round

>>54423293

Maybe you could do the quivering palm thing, where you fill an enemy with ki and then "detonate" it at opportune moments.

Sorta like the shroud-sin, but a defender.

>>54423331
Charging up for a big hit was Assassin's deal, and it didn't work out too well. Turns out damage now is better than damage later, who would've thought.

>>54423353
I really liked the design, and this'd be for a defender.

You'd put your Ki into the target (mark) and it'd remain there until you detonate it.

You can detonate it to punish a mark infringement, but until you do, it acts as a debuff, because mark. You can stack them, and maybe have a feat that stacks the debuff as well.

The detonate itself would be little damage, but some useful effect like a slide or at higher levels a trip or some other debuff.

>>54423331
>>54423353

Assassin would have worked a lot better if Shrouds transferred when a target went down, rather than just being wasted. I still think there's interesting design space you can explore with the concept.

>>54423405
Yeah, something like being able to collect or store shrouds would have been great. They get some feats that essentially works out that way already.

But it probably should have had a stronger secondary role while he is still stacking shrouds as well.

>>54420692
Depends. Do we count monks as Ki? Then probably not. Do we not count them? Sure, why not. I personally liked this idea of Yin/Yang balance very much

>>54421714
It disturbs internal energies of every foe around him, making them fumble?

https://youtu.be/TyyCFH49KCg?t=4m41s

>>54422097
>>54422064
Ok, so bit of an odd idea, but...

The normal way defending works is to make attacking one of your friends a bad idea for the attacker. But what if you just made it suck for anyone on Team Monster?

SOHEI - Ki Defender

Aura of Power - Punishment
>Your ki is strong. When enemies attack those you have sworn to defend, it burns with power.
Once per turn, when an enemy attacks your allies, any enemy adjacent to you takes X damage.

Zen Warrior - Defense
>One who has mastered himself is not easily mastered by others.
Opponents you have marked that attack you must roll twice and take the lesser result.

I haven't quite worked out the marking mechanic yet but I like the punishment idea and also the defense idea, makes a sort of reverse-Avenger where instead of trying to drag an enemy off to the side you dive in. And imo it's a relatively elegant way to get a "dodge tank" feel which I think suits the Ki feel.

>>54423821
Maybe give him a reverse-mark, where he designates an ally and all attacks against this ally get -2 until the start of the next turn.
Fluff it as improving ally's Ki balance

>>54423821
>Aura of Power - Punishment
>>Your ki is strong. When enemies attack those you have sworn to defend, it burns with power.
>Once per turn, when an enemy attacks your allies, any enemy adjacent to you takes X damage.
Also, wouldn't this just make enemies avoid Sohei on principle?

>>54423821
Defender Theory relies on a catch-22 - you don't wanna attack me and you don't wanna attack my allies. I like the implementation of the first half, but the secondary part needs to either have some really high danage, or balanced out by strong stickiness.

>>54423935
Secondary part just nakes him harder to hit while denying him high defenses. Also, possibly making it a class with NADs higher than AC

>>54423915
If so then you're indirectly tanking by keeping attackers away in the first place.

>>54423957
Away from himself, not other squishier targets

>>54423935
Yeah I haven't quite got it clicking yet but I wanted to see what everyone else thought before working on it more.

>>54423915
>>54423965
So just stand near your friends and monsters will never bother you >_>

>>54423821
With regards to >>54423475:
Why not give him two marks, one Yin and one Yang?

Something like
Yin marks and slows. Raises your Yin
Yang marks and lowers AC. Raises your Yang

If you have Yin higher than Yang, all Yin marks do cold damage. If Yang is higher, all Yang marks do fire damage

>>54423953
I meant implementation of "you don't wanna attack me" (roll twice and pick lowest result targeting you), the trick is making them not want to attack your allies. The Paladin, the Battlemind and the Swordmage work by making their punishment take up most of the battlefield; the Fighter and the Warden work by dragging the enemies in and not letting them go. The Sohei seems to lean more towards the latter option, so think of a way of getting enemies to stay adjacent to you.

>>54424063
I feel that the Yin/Yang mechanic should be restricted to the Shugenja, else it gets too repetitive.

Why are people so obsessed with ki when the psionic power source still doesn't have a power-point using striker?

>>54424105
It's just something to talk about. Psionic striker that isn't a monk is fine too. Are you willing to make one?

>>54424127
I would love to make a wilder

I only have a few ideas, it would be an implement class as opposed to a weapon class, maybe with some melee implement powers like the monk has but mostly focusing on range. Utilising the wild surge feature from 3.5 it would probably have several powers with backlash effects, sort of like the invoker, but unlike the invoker, the wilder can choose whether or not to take the cost to boost the spell, instead of just having powerful spells that always come with the cost

>>54421497
Everyone should have a good BA, because everyone should have a warlord buddy

>>54387782
Why do you want to convert them?

>>54424105
probably because the only thing less popular than psionics was incarnum

and the only reason incarnum was less popular was because the rules were a steaming pile of shit

>>54421011
Before you delve too deep into the rabbit hole of item properties, have you ever considered that the solution is more Magic Missile?

Rapid Shot doesn't actually specify that you use a weapon power...

>>54424502
Wrong edition.

>>54424574
Well my point was that psionics has never been popular, and that the only thing less popular is Incarnum, which itself was notoriously bad

How do I get in to 4E?

>>54425444

What do you mean, exactly? How to find a group or community, or what content and such you need to get started? Or both?

>>54425477
Both

I've played a bit of 5E but 4 was the first one I read the handbooks of back-to-back, even if I can't remember shit anymore, I don't even know if my friends would be interested in it

>>54425539
As a player all you really need to play is the Character Builder and it does most of the heavy lifting for you. It's not perfect but it's a massive time-saver, just pay attention to wording and use the Compendium to look up rules you don't understand.

Finding groups is a much harder problem, online is a shitshow regardless of system and offline invites are basically show up somewhere with people and play whatever's available while mentioning you're LFG until you get invites.

>>54425539
Ask your friends, get the CBLoader working, use funin.space to look shit up.

>>54424091
I like the "dual" mechanic of ki users. Monk with the full disciples, shugenja with the yin-yang.

Maybe the sohei (or whatever the Ki defender ends up as) could be like a more refined berserker, switching between a protection and an aggression mode, defending allies and debilating enemies.

>>54425855
Full Disciplines aren't really a "dual" thing, they're a "this action, and this action" thing they've got. It's not quite the Yin-Yang that the Shugenja has.

The Sohei/Ki Defender should definitely work on a mechanic like the Full Discipline but in a more interesting way, perhaps using Minor Action Auras as part of their attacks, and those Auras affecting the way they defend.

>>54426050
Maybe the attack apply an aura on the enemy, some sort of ki transfering? So a muddy ki would create an aura on an enemy that slows.

>>54424871
I know it was garbage but I still really liked the idea/aesthetic of Incarnum.

>>54426186
Actually, that gives me an idea. The idea we've here for a Sohei/Ki Defender has a punishment aura that dishes out damage. You could toy around with that idea heavily - an at-will aura might make enemies within that aura have a penalty to hit; an encounter aura may cause enemies to become prone; a daily aura may apply something real nasty like "Upon the beginning of your turn, slide every enemy within your aura 1 square", and an utility aura might increase its range temporarily.

That's an effective way of creating stickiness - the Sohei himself becomes a walking zone.

>>54426263
So a warden?

>>54426297
Kinda? I mean, rather than apply to the whole aura you could target other enemies, and do loads of fuckery with the aura itself. I just feel that the Sohei should definitely be a "sticky" sort of Defender - they won't be leaving your grasp anytime soon.

>>54426327
It could be a sticky defender with lots of mobility to set up shop. Could have something like Fighter's Combat Agility (but good), or the battlemind's blurred step.

Going with the dual theme, it could have a mobile/immobile stance. Maybe the auras could be move actions?

>>54426407
Anon, you're thinking of the Battlemind, that's essentially Lightning Rush+Blurred Step, where he basically follows targets forever, but can also target them halfway across the map. I don't know what to do with the Sohei - I definitely want it to be a stickier Defender than the Battlemind, the Paladin or the Swordmage. I feel he should be a sticky Defender that can handle multiple targets near him with ease.

>>54426407
Or like warden's wildblood speed?
Honestly I think the aura defender idea is too much overlap with warden.

How about a defender who swaps places with an ally when the ally gets attacked?

Are the 4e manuals/module in the copypaste?

I recently picking up 4e starter pack.

I really want to make a 4e spin off, but everytime I look at this thread I feel that I know little of the system. Much I've forgot but much I never read.

I feel I miss some greater insight of how each 4e class works inside their role to be comfortable to even try to make a 4e spin off.

>>54426978
Start small and work your way up, you're never going to get it perfect on the first try. WotC certainly didn't.

>>54421921
This mixed with an aura. You could consider it a sort of ki barrier. think of it like an area that constantly threatens attack if you were to enter it. It's basically like Zoning in fighting games. You enter into the characters reach or zone and it's certain death.

Okay, this is silly but... maybe a Zen archer who shoots enemy attacks out of the air?

Alternatively, let's combine
>>54427590 and >>54426495

Basically, battlemind/wildblood warden/agile fighter, BUT, your character is running up to allies to protect them instead of enemies, and it's generally just focused on ally protection instead enemy control.

>>54426327
I don't know. I think itd be more mechanically interesting if he wasn't really sticky at all. Instead, rushing in, applying hard control effects on an opponent, then rushing out.

You could use Full Disciplines for the move-in/out then add Ki points for multiple marks and stacking more damage/effects. I envision the marks to be a separate probably minor or free action and then with Ki expenditure to make it apply to some or all targets, or upgrade softer control to harder control.

The goal for me here is to have something that feels and acts like the monk but has a definitive defender bent. But I dont think that the monk's mobility makes for a good defender but hard control and marking/mass marking does.

>>54426978
Look at class specific mechanics. While powers are the meat of the class, things like fighter marks, sneak attack etc. are the bone. THEN look at the powers (especially low level at-will and encounter selection) and understand what the intended play there is.

Basically, >>54427067

>>54427653
See this would be awesome. A Ranged Defender build would definitely be something unique. And I also like the idea of the full discipline stuff, perhaps the riders from full disciplines could change the way your aura works.

>>54427735
It could be 3 different builds
>Sohei can protect any ally within range of his weapon as immediate reaction
>Archery sohei has most range, hence most protection, but can't charge so is less mobile
>Polearm sohei has reach that lets him protect allies and punish enemies more easily and can charge, but nowhere near as good as archery
>Thrown weapon sohei (maybe let him throw one handed weapons, that seems to be a thing in wuxia) is halfway. He gets powers that embed his weapon after throwing it for all sorts of effects, the most basic one being jumping there and standing on it.

>>54425742
>>54425751
Is it like 5E where you learn best by just getting in to the thick of it?

Were there even any D&D vidya made for 4E other than that Neverwinter thing?

>>54428359
Closest I can think of is modern XCOM. And yeah, that's pretty much the best way to learn 4e and the flow of combat.

>>54427892
Not sure how a thrown weapon sohei would work, plus that sort of steps into the ranger's territory, and seems more striker than defender to me. I'd say go more along the lines of the typical heavy blade or light blade user. like wind and fire wheels or the jian. wuxia really loves the jian as it's concidered the gentleman of all weapons, it's also where you get the whole magical flying swords trope.

>>54428456
I was thinking throwing the jian, basically.

It'd be more "one handed weapon you can throw for effects" than "throwing weapons" I guess.

>>54428359
There was no vidya made for 4e. Neverwinter only reused names of things, it had no real similarities otherwise.

>>54428565
actually there was a video game made with 4e before neverwinter. Look up Daggerdale. Don't play it. It was utter crap.

>>54428359
Shit, I just remembered one that might be nice: CARD HUNTER!

>>54428487
That could work possibly. And could also explain the whole blade barrier idea, since that was really prevalent in wuxia films.

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I NEED OPINIONS

OPINIONS ON THE SEEKER!

>>54429328

Cool concept, mediocre in every way. The only use for it is handing to an incorrigible optimiser so they can play in a party of mid to low optimisation without causing trouble.

>>54429328
They WERE underpowered, purely for a lack of options, but not NEARLY as under-powered as the community makes it out to be. Seeker/Druid hybrid with a weaplement or inherent bonuses was a genuinely powerful controller.

Yeah, they aren't as good at other controllers at "dealing with minions" but if you think that all a controller's good for is "dealing with minions" then you're overlooking a lot.

>>54429398
Seeker hybrid is actually bretty good.

As with most essential hybrids, you lose basically nothing of value, and gain the abiity to be a normal class.

>>54429436
first, while it came out of the Essentials Erra, it wasn't an Essentials class or an Essentials Hybrid. It was printed in the same book as the first hybrids.

Second, it wasn't an OP hybrid for the same reasons as the Essentials hybrids. Essentials hybrids all intentionally broke the established conventions of hybrid-classing to.... do exactly what you said. Seeker hybrid was good in the same way that all controller hybrids were good: there was no class feature to water down, because the class feature WAS the powers and nothing else. Hybriding two controllers with the same attack-stat functionally just gave you another controller with twice the versatility.

>>54428387
>>54428565
>>54428632
That's kinda disappointing, the only D&D games I ever really had access to were Temple of Elemental Evil, which utterly kicked my shit in because I had no idea what I was doing at the time, and I think a PSP game called Tactics.

Were either any good?

>>54429328
>>54429398
>>54429436
Seekers get a lot of RBA powers so it makes a fun hybrid pairing with fighter and deft hurler style.

>>54429867
And half-elf hunters, yeah.

>>54429867
Also combines well with SKALD.

>>54429328
The best Seeker that actually is a Seeker is an Elf Ranger|Seeker - alternatively, Rogue|Seeker - doing crazy shit. I can probably half-ass a decent one, but the Seeker is a cool concept hindered by bad design. The D413 article it recieved was great, though.

So Shungenjanon.

We have Sohei as Defender
Shugenja as Leader
What are we looking at for Striker (Unless we're thinking Monk) and Controller?

Personally hoping for Bushi for Striker, but that's just me really.

Controller I'm at a loss for really.

>>54429328
Nobody remembers the dragon magazine that gave them all the great teleport powers and the top tier pp

>>54431561
which issue is that. I may have to download it.

>>54432146
413

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>>54432281
Thanks dude

>>54430960
I'm thinking Monk for our Ki Striker and someone else for the Psionics.

>>54434399
I was hoping the monk would end up being the controller, since it's almost there to begin with.

>>54427653
>your character is running up to allies to protect them instead of enemies, and it's generally just focused on ally protection instead enemy control.

So a leader?

>>54435388
That's not a Leader, anon, that's the Battlemind, and the Swordmage to a lesser extent.

>>54435388
>>54435429
That's a Defender who's heavy on the controller-ey sub-roll

>>54428359
Pillars of Eternity feels like a bit of a throwback-4e mixed with 5e with its levelling up system and its X/encounter + X/day system.

Only recently started playing so I can't tell you how authentically it plays. I know DA:Origins gave me the same teamwork vibe, even if everyone shits on it for >Bioware.

Tldr no, nobody's done it in full or well.

>>54436134

Despite the hate on it, I actually thought PoE's combat and levelling worked very well. I liked how they made every stat useful, even if different classes should focus on different ones, you still benefited from a buff in some way or another.

>>54436134
Weird. You'd think they'd rake it in from people too lonely/incapable of sitting in to actual games.

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As long as we all agree that this is how Ki classes should work

I would love to see a psi blade striker or maybe just a subtheme. Theres just always been something that apraled to me about hitting dudes with weapons made of think.

>>54436273
Maybe they didn't want it portraying its biggest controversy with an actual videogame. Maybe the murder-suicide kinda put a damper on all things virtual-game-y. Maybe D&D was on the downsizing train already and nobody had the budget. Maybe videogames have always kinda sucked at the sort of aggro mechanic Defenders use.

I would've loved a NWN style 4e game with player made modules and shit (like Shadowrun picked up the ball on), but instead here I am buying hundreds of dollars of minis for a nice dnd setup to cope with 40k going downhill.

>>54436376
Really felt that either Wilder or Soulknife should have been the psionic striker. The monk was a great striker don't get me wrong, but I honestly thought it would make a great controller as well.

>>54436584
>Maybe videogames have always kinda sucked at the sort of aggro mechanic Defenders use.

I think this is a large part of it.

>>54436645
Well that's why we have this discussion lol

Nobody likes monk being in Psionic except that one weirdo

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>>54436651
Yeah, a lot of people who've never touched 4e don't see the intricacy of the marking system, and call it WoW-babbyshit like it's some sort of autopilot aggro button. Personally, when I DM, I try and factor in the foes themselves: mindless undead will probably just keep spamming at the nearest hero, cowardly little shits like goblins will probably look out for themselves, more tactically advanced foes might regroup and mitigate it, etc. It gets the player-interactivity going a bit more (players watching for when the monster gives them an opening), makes the monsters feel more authentic, and makes my defenders work for their catch-22s and increasing damage output rather than sitting there tanking for another 20 minutes of the evening.

Any 4e videogame really needs to do both defender mechanics justice (monsters having a way to weigh up if they breach a mark or not) and interrupts (realtime/pause means having interrupts go off automatically, which kills tactics; turn-based seems to be judged as too slow for mass appeal).

Doing a 4e campaign at some point in the next month, mulling over class options (everyone's rolling stats, so we can't have a repeat of what happened in the last game/system.)

Are vampires any decent? I have a fondness for life stealing and leeching classes in most RPGs, and I'm unaware of how they compare at large to other (melee) strikers.

>>54437234
>Are vampires any decent?

No.

>>54437234
They're a cool concept, playing with healing surges etc, but I think they're a bit underpowered, definitely bland by virtue of essentials class design, and I recall them not losing too much being a hybrid instead (we had a warforged monk|vampire, he was a god's tattoo machine before being banished)

>>54437234
They arent for the pussies. If you delve into the charop for them you might be able to pull out an almost unkillable badass by Epic but its pretty unlikely and certainly not fun for almost all of heroic

Just choose a different class and pick the Vryloka race (I think you spell it that way, dont care)

>>54437234
>rolling stats

Ouch, ouch, ouch. Especially in 4e, where the math is extremely tight.

>>54437304
>>54437287
>>54437265
Thanks for the advice lads.

>>54437234
>(everyone's rolling stats, so we can't have a repeat of what happened in the last game/system.)

Have you guys played 4E before? I ask because this is a very bad idea.

>>54437611
I have, DM might have (not entirely sure, actually) and the rest are a hard no.

I'm fully aware of how disastrous this can be, but figure if it goes belly-up, can always go point-based.

Another guy interested in Vampires here, I love the theme but don't wanna be useless if I roll one with my group. I've heard they make good Hybrids, but can anyone walk me through what's good and bad about them as a Hybrid, what classes they mix well with, etc?

>>54438805
You could also just either be a vryloka, or take the feat chain they made, which I honestly felt was much better.

>>54438870
>>54438805
There's also a Theme if I recall correctly.

The non-hybrid vampire's problem is that he has very limited power choices, and because of that, they are sorta split down the middle between striking and controlling and DEX/CHA. And playing around with the surges leaves them mostly worse off, unless you build around it.

It's still not a lost cause. It's definitely servicable.

>>54437234
>everyone's rolling stats, so we can't have a repeat of what happened in the last game/system

What?

>For sale cross

Yes captcha, this does sound like an abonimation

>>54437234
>so we can't have a repeat of what happened in the last game/system.
What happened last game/system?

>>54438805
Your main problem is the DEX/CHA stat requirement. Almost all your powers use DEX for attacks, but your striker feature works off CHA so you're stuck with dual primaries. What you need in a hybrid is a class that either uses both stats or uses one and doesn't need a strong secondary.

The other issue is vampire hybrid, despite giving you almost everything vamp gets, will probably hurt whatever other class you hybrid with because vamp just gets a whole bunch of penalties as class features. On the plus side, you do get regen 5 while bloodied, and the Vampire Slam at-will is great, being an MBA with great damage and built in push.

Also vamps have feats that let you steal surges 1/enc with an encounter power of a specific power source, basically emulating your blood drinker vamp encounter power. Out of those, divine vampire is notable for also countering your radiant vulnerability, martial vampire for giving a surge when bloodied, and primal vampire for flat out giving two bonus surges. A good thing to keep in mind is you don't actually need the encounter power to get the secondary benefit, so you could just MC to gain access to it.

For hybrid options sorc|vamp wouldn't be bad; stats line up for wild/storm sorcerers, both striker features work pretty much the same and they're both implement users. Warlock|vamp might work, but you lose out one warlock's awesome INT secondary stuff. You might be able to do something with an artful dodger rogue|vamp. Pally|vamp is another option I like, taking advantage of vamp's potential durability to be a better defender. What I did was use human revenant as the race, so between the vamp's bloodied regen and surge stealing, and the human revenant's save bonuses and staying up past 0 hp, the build would be extremely hard to take down. At least I think it would, I've never been able to try it in a game.

>>54439144
No theme, just a heritage feat to make dhampirs

My favorite Vampire build is the one that went something like Barbarian|Cleric with Vampire multiclass and those feats/items that gave scaling bonuses according to how many milestones you had racked up. Then you never took a long rest ever.

>>54441689
Sounds weird, how would you recover your rages?

I remember a bard build that used vampire and copious amount of multiclass feats to get all the "you regain a surge" things.

>>54441750
You, uh... don't. Instead, enjoy being literally untouchable without crits or no-roll aura/zone effects.

I'm amongst the many working on a 4e rewrite, and we're a little stuck on an idea involving power sources. We're experimenting with tying Utilities to power sources, instead of classes, as well as making every class have access to at least two power sources, generally one from base class, one from archetype of that class, with the possibility for themes to let you swap one out.

However, an idea I like the idea of is 'Minor' power sources, that don't have any classes to their name but exist to provide a specific pool of utilities. Things like 'Noble', 'Scholar' or 'Dragon', narrower and more specific themes which could be fun to design some utilities for.

The trouble is, it's hard to see a way to not make them objectively worse than the major sources, which will all have a much smaller selection of things to choose from, while giving everyone access to one, effectively meaning they have three different utility pools to sort through, risks option overload and analysis paralysis, as well as penalising people who choose more straight up class combinations that don't have an associated minor source for whatever reason.

Any thoughts on this?

>>54443299
What about using Backgrounds as the secondary power source? They're a generally underutilized design space, especially after Themes started overlapping in role.

>>54443299
I think it's important to do a split between combat and non-combat utilities

There's a bit of a problem with tying combat utilities to power source instead of class, you need your utility powers to support your role in the party, and since power sources are not tied to roles, it weakens the prospects of most utility powers and you effectively end up with class utilities anyway

>>54443422

Yeah, we are doing this. Sorry, should have clarified. 'Support' powers, combat utilities, are still class based. It's out of combat stuff we're tying to sources instead.

>>54443409

At this point we were considering completely folding Backgrounds into Themes. Theme, PP and ED creates a nice symmetry for the three tiers, when Heroic felt a little empty before Themes filled the gap.

>>54443450
The Heroic equivalent to PP/ED was supposed to be Class, but Themes do fit more comparably in how the bonuses get doled out. An interesting observation.

I can see siloing power selection a la AED split: at level 2 pick a power from your Class pool, at level 4 from your Theme pool, at level 6 from a multiclass pool, etc.

If it's out of combat powers specifically you're looking for a fair way to distribute, I'd lean towards letting it fairly relaxed to begin with unless you've got a framework in place to more carefully manage expected bonuses for any given level.

>>54443299
If you're going to do that why wouldn't you give players access to one major and minor power source?

>>54443299
Something you could do with the minor ones to make them more on par with the larger pools of others is give more synergy between the powers having them become something like a chain or boosting similar stats or having effects that are thematically similar (like being tanky by giving THP, removing poisons or status effect, etc.).

You could also do possible bonuses for using powers from the minor themes as opposed to the larger ones. Sort of like Theme or Class features, in fact you could probably include them as such to tie the power sources to either.

>>54443625

We have considered that, but it feels weird when you consider some classes. Why shouldn't a Barbarian be able to be Martial/Primal, or an illusionist spellcaster be Arcane/Shadow? The combinations are meaningful enough that removing them is also a loss, so we're hoping for a better general solution. Still, it's still early days and we're figuring it out as we go.

>>54443299
>'Minor' power sources, that don't have any classes to their name but exist to provide a specific pool of utilities. Things like 'Noble', 'Scholar' or 'Dragon', narrower and more specific themes

There's afterall, different ideas of sources. Martial could be military training or tribal (not Primal) skill, Arcane could be by research (Scholar) or blood (Sorcerer) or pact (Warlock).

In a homebrew, this allows for basic sources (what) and secondary sources (how).

So Divine could be monastic tradition (Cleric), full power of faith (Paladin) or naturaly divine (Favoured Soul).

317/18/63/10

>>54446147
Bump limit reached. New thread >>54446354