Is the world of the Blue Rose RPG a social-justice utopia or

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And is it very furry?

>>54373605

Not really. There aren't any animal-people, just actual intelligent animals that look more or less the same as the non-intelligent versions. That wolf knight wouldn't be possible, because wolves don't have hands.

>>54373238

Also, I'm interested in learning more about people's experience with the system. I kind of want to use it to run a game based on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0sbqnkFFhQ

>>54373238
From what I've heard it's kind of a Mercedes Lackey Novel simulator which is kind of lame and likely attracts SJW faggots, but also has a decent magic/corruption system

>>54373238
It's more like Star Wars set in a vaguely medieval setting.

>>54373238
>Rpgpundit
kek

Blue Rose does have an interesting setting, Aldis and Jarzon have flaws and reasons for why they're the way they are. Nothing says you can't play a Jarzonian who embodies their nation's good aspects.

>>54373238
>Is the world of the Blue Rose RPG a social-justice utopia or a fascist dystopia?
There is no difference between social justice and fascism so the answer is yes.

>>54374769
>>54375129
I like both of you.

Your fragile man-tears are delicious.

>>54376905
Is this the new "you mad bro" meme?

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>>54373238

This is a bait thread, but I'll show up because it's a game I've definitely wanted to play.

If this is a genuine question, it's not portrayed as dystopic in the books. It's played as an imperfect but forward-thinking society. In a way it reminds me of the kind of mindset Roddenberry had in creating the Federation in Star Trek, same sort of egalitarian optimism, but through a particularly feminist lens. Personally I think the most interesting thing about the society's that how they've taken the alignment-as-actual-detectable-phenomenon thing to its natural conclusion and made an alignment test a part of their governance structure.

I just want to play a psychic dolphin in a fantasy game that isn't just about killing shit. Is that so wrong?

>>54377402
I think it's more of an "anon spends his free time searching the Internet for things to get upset about and doesn't realize he's become the tumblr he claims to despise" kind of thing.

>>54377983
>In a way it reminds me of the kind of mindset Roddenberry had

You mean:

'These Ferengi need giant codpieces to show off how large their dicks are and they should talk a lot about all their exotic sexual positions...why is everyone telling me to please stop'

>>54378235

This isn't actually in the game, though. Aldin culture sees LGBT acceptance as normal and the default, and people generally don't spend much time discussing things their culture views as normal. The books don't talk about sexual acts in any gratuitous detail at all; they merely contrast Aldin tolerance with Jarzoni rigidity. What exactly angers you about that?

>>54373744

One could hold a similar social position, but they'd have to have a radically different approach to combat.

>>54374769
It was originally going to be a Mercedes Lackey setting till the author told them she didn't like it or their politics.

>>54382045
Source? That sounds like amazing BTFOing.

>>54374899
In 1e the view on Jarzonians was insanely hypocritical, but if you're talking about 2e they toned down the politics a lot and Jarzon is less grimderp while Aldis is more realistically dysfunctional.

>>54376905
...

isn't "man tears" a slang for cum?

>>54382197
Yes. SJWs have this thing where they have to tell you how they love cum so much. It's because of their long-repressed masochism and submission fetishes.

So, any thoughts on how the mechanics work in play? I've never played an AGE game, so I have no practical experience with the system.

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>>54380875

?

>>54383010

Yeah, that works.

>>54382968
The 1e rules are widely considered to be superior. You may know them as True20, which is the setting-neutral version that Green Ronin begrudgingly put out because people wanted the rules without the shite setting.

>>54379081

No, I was joking about how much of a big perv Roddenberry was.

>>54383136

Really? Why are they considered better? I'm not very familiar with True20 as a system, and its reliance on feats bothered me, from what little I saw of the first edition. I was never a fan of feats, or really d20 in general.

>>54383600
Autism, mostly. Although AGE has its flaws (having to roll doubles on 3d6 and succeed to pull off the really cool shit, for instance), I'd take it over most versions of d20 any day.

>>54383648
Aren't doubles on 3d6 like, 40% of the rolls?

>>54383991

Yep, about that.

>>54383991
Still need to succeed at the check, and only one of the dice determines what kind of cool shit you can pull off (its number is a pool of points you can spend).

>>54373238
>RPGpundit

Not even once.

>>54383600

I really liked True20. Toughness saves, wealth checks, one of my favorite d20 iterations, really.

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>>54375129

>>54382045
Hah, that's hilarious, if true.

>>54377983
>I just want to play a psychic dolphin in a fantasy game that isn't just about killing shit. Is that so wrong?

I think we can be friends, anon.

>>54382045
Source?

Sounds too much like something made up for alt-righters to cream themselves over.

>>54382968
It's literally just Green Robin's Dragon Age, which they still have the demo of up if you want to play it. Just make note that the setting assumes everyone is bisexual, monosexuals are explicitly "tolerated," and expand the Stunt table to include "Flirt."

Oh and two-handed weapons are master race.

>>54385752
>Dragon Age
Do people still play that?

And that other one, made by Wheaton, whatever that was called, I forget.

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>>54385657
>something made up for alt-righters to cream themselves over.

Ironic given that Blue Rose is something made up for ctrl-lefties to cream themselves over.

I'm frankly surprised BR doesn't have a kingdom where the Religion of Peace brings love and sunshine to evil white men through magical re-education camps.

>>54386050
t. triggered alt-rightist

>>54385965
DA's an interesting game, but combat takes a while since everything has lots of HP and damage reduction. Blue Rose focuses on alternative solutions, but just on case, greatswords with the 2hand talent give you 3d6 damage and a consistent 1d6 bonus.

Wheaton's a cuck. Please don't mention him again.

>>54386050
I noticed that instead of answering anon's question, you opted to whine about liberals.

>>54382197
Yes, but being man hating feminazis the tumblrinas had no idea that "man tears" means cum because they are all either lesbians or virgins. Despite how much porn they draw. Hell, they are probably obsessed with drawing porn BECAUSE of it. So when they started using it they thought it would make them look cool. Instead it just showed how fucking stupid and out of touch with the rest of the world they really are.

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>>54373238
I'm glad someone wrote a containment rpg for you

>>54382197
>>54386271
>isn't "man tears" a slang for cum?

That term's probably been used that way for less than two months.

>>54386357
>>54386308

You're a busy boy!

>>54386405
you might even say he's a big guy

>>54386444
No. You wouldn't. That has nothing to do with being busy. Stop it. Stop is now and kill yourself.

>>54379081
you miss anons point >>54383391
Roddenberry was a coked up sexual deviant who had to be restrained from cramming his fetishes into the show

>>54386508
Was getting caught part of your plan?

So what exactly is the meme thats so bad about this game then

Is it that it has a fantasy setting where trans are accepted and women are equal?

Because that's been Base D&D since 3e.

>>54386536
This has nothing to do with what I typed. Stop it and die.

>>54386545
The meme is it takes ideas from elsewhere and tries to pass it off as its own. The main villain is literally the Lich King.

>>54386545
Yep. Also, Teh Gayz.

>>54386565
You're a big guy!

>>54386601
You have a disease. A bullet is the cure.

>>54386050
So still no source for the claims of Mercedes Lackay disowning Blue Rose and the creative team behind it. I see.

Making facts up to support your argument instead of formulating your argument based on facts just like the SJWs. Proving once again that Alt-Righters and SJWs are just two sides of the same shit-smeared coin.

>>54386573

I mean... one of the main villains is a lich king. Is that really stealing? A lich is one of the main villains in pretty much every fantasy RPG setting, and most fantasy media.

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>>54383010

I'm kind of interested now. I feel like back in the day, RPGs offered more wildly different and non-humanoid character options than they tend to these days.

Anyone played an animal or other seriously non-humanoid character recently? It's become rarer, but why?

>>54386532
>Roddenberry was a coked up sexual deviant who had to be restrained from cramming his fetishes into the show
The original magical realm guy.

Also, he was a boring humanist that just wanted all episodes to be "vanilla, boring crew meets new aliens and shit in the name of science and progress"
All that klingon, borg, whatever, stuff were things other people pressured him into adding so the show would have some tiny bit of conflict and drama.

>>54386638
Don't reply to trolls, dummy.

>>54386744
>meets new aliens and shit in the name of science and progress

That sounds pretty great, though. Optimism about the future is part of what made Star Trek popular.

>>54386668
Anon probably means the lich from that John Goodman screencap.

>>54386112
Are you new?

>>54386668
I mean, not knowing anything about Blue Rose lore... is their Lich King a former holy warrior who succumbed to vengeance and hatred while fighting a force of evil, literally losing his soul to a cursed artifact of doom in the process, resulting in him becoming an evil at least as profound as the one he fought, commanding legions of the undead to swarm the land and slaughter the people he once saved, before finally transitioning to the status of uber-powerful Black Knight/Necromancer of the frozen north?

Because that would be stealing. If he's just a lich and a king that's only stealing if Blizzard stole it from D&D (Szass Tam, Vecna) who in turn stole it from Robert E Howard or something. probably ending the chain with somebody stealing from Russian Folklore and Koschei the Deathless

>>54375129
>social justice
An ideology based on the categorization of group identities (race, gender, sexuality, wealth) that operates on the assumption that privileged groups are always privileged because they exploit the unprivileged and the unprivileged are in that state because they are being exploited by the privileged. Oppression is recognized as a virtue and the most respected people are not the warriors against exploitation but rather the most low and exploited (except if they are white, white people can't be oppressed). Due to the nature of the world, any uprooting of oppression would simply shift the balance and put new groups into privilege, and the social justice warriors would either have to betray them in a neverending cycle or abandon their ideology.
Core: Divide people under a totalitarian government, judge based on group identity, hate inequality

>fascism
An ideology named after the fasces, a bundle of rods, under the idea that the multiple rods united are harder to break than the individual rods. Very simple doctrine - strength through unity. Fascists despise weakness and would sooner spit on the unprivileged than claim they are superior because they are oppressed. They want a population to be united by any means necessary, and for this population to uphold a meritocratic dictatorship that controls their speech, education, and economy in order to keep them united. The most competent people are the most respected people (as opposed to the most oppressed being the greatest) and have more rights. To add later flair, fascists are fundamentally opposed to all materialistic ideologies (capitalism, equity socialism, communism).
Core: Unite people under a totalitarian government, judge based on merit, love inequality

Just because they are both anti-discourse authoritarians does not make them the same.

>>54386653
Nigger, the reason we hate sjws is becasue they're literally /pol/. The only people calling non-mental randos sjw/alt right are sjws and /pol/

So which one are you? Either way get the fuck out.

>>54386899
>the reason we hate sjws is becasue they're literally /pol/
True words.

>>54386853
SJWs literally use fascist controls and tactics to sustain their virtue signally cult of the opressed, and the very nature of the movement makes sure rich white (jewish) women are always the ones signaling who is opressed and who is the opressor.

>>54386780
>Optimism about the future is part of what made Star Trek popular.
Well, yeah, but it becomes as boring and sterile as saturday morning christian stories for children.
There is no contradiction between the future being awesome and utopic, and also being full of lots of factions, personal conflicts, shades of gray and whatever(see Orion's Arm, The Culture, etc.)
You still need a driving force behind a story.

>>54386984
You are absolutely correct that stories require conflict - and that Orion's Arm is great. Honestly, though, Klingons are one of the weaker aspects of the setting: they are just space Mongols who shoot at the good guys and do not even look different from humans in the original series (Borg are interesting on the other hand). Star Trek can (and does, in many episodes) generate dramatic conflict purely through encountering strange alien lifeforms and the like.

>>54386899
>Nigger, the reason we hate sjws is becasue they're literally /pol/. The only people calling non-mental randos sjw/alt right are sjws and /pol/


I'm sorry, I don't speak retard. Could you repeat that in English?

>>54386975
SJWs are dividers and they don't care about merit. Division is anti-fascist, plain and simple.

>fascist controls and tactics
Strawmanning/labeling followed by silencing is a common tactic, fascists don't own it. Even if they did, SJWs are fundamentally anti-fascist and they contradict its core principles. Vaguely similar tactics does not equate to the two ideologies being the same, that's ridiculous logic.

>>54386724
Gygax hated nonhumans, and 3e, which set the tone of rpgs for a decade, made playing anything other than a variety of the big 6 so broken that it tainted the idea.

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>>54377983
>I just want to play a psychic dolphin in a fantasy game that isn't just about killing shit. Is that so wrong?

It's not fantasy, just softish sci-fi Space Opera, but I would play the SHIT out of an Uplift Series RPG. Neo-fins forever. Never met anyone else who's read those, though. It's perhaps my favourite sci-fi series, tied with the Culture and the Commonwealth Saga, and it really does go into detail about the different mindset of the uplifted animal races (AKA everyone except possibly humans, so to avoid a crushing species inferiority complex about joining a multi-billion year old Galactic culture as dirt poor and low-tech wolflings the Terragens govt. promotes HFY to an extent. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gets our asses kicked because we don't know the protocols to not get fucked for our tricks afterwards.).

The Earthclan species, Neo-Dolphins and Neo-Chimps aren't just humans with different bodies, too, which is nice. Dolphins think REALLY differently and have different culture and morals too.

>>54386545
One of the many bad things is that it condones Mind Rape as long as the ones doing the mindraping are the leftie Good Guys(tm) of Progressive Justice and Equality!

At least in 1E, I have no idea if that got fixed in 2e.

>>54373238
anyone have this pdf.

>>54387747
GURPS Uplift is a thing.

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>>54386899
>Nigger, the reason we hate sjws is becasue they're literally /pol/.

>>54390053
10/10 post anon. was eating breakfast and nearly choked on my cereal while reading this.

>>54388884
You know D&D maintains the same ideals, right?

>>54390190
I am pretty sure Mind Rape has the Evil tag attached to it, anon.
And its Good counterpart Sanctify the Wicked does not work the same way.

>>54388884
Daily reminder that mind rape is a humane alternative to execution or imprisonment.

It's pure SJW garbage. Think left wing MYFAROG.

>>54389978
Oh, fuck yes. Does mean I have to learn to GURPS, though, but whatever. Let me guess, the missions are all on bloody Jijo, though?

>>54390220
>mind rape isn't mind rape when the good guy uses it
C'mon, anon, I've seen the shit roll already.
I've watched paladin's enslave entire tribes of goblins and orcs to "rehabilitate" them, but it wasn't evil because "he knew what was best for them".
>>54390278
Except every time MYFAROG gets brought up, it's cast down because it's mechanics are objectively shit on top of the intentionally skewed world view.

>>54390770
>>54388884
If you consider that mind rape effectively destroys one personality and replaces it with another that is more useful to you, mind rape becomes the most ethical outcome any time you would otherwise be forced to execute someone. It's the difference between wasting resources and keeping them.

>>54391077
>ethical

Are you sure you don't mean "efficient?"

>>54390770
>Except every time MYFAROG gets brought up, it's cast down because it's mechanics are objectively shit on top of the intentionally skewed world view.
Exactly like Bluerose. You can't seriously think that AGE is a worthwhile system or that the SJW pandering nonsense that constitutes the world is a good setting.

>>54391077
The difference is that the game tells you that overriding the free will and sanctity of others is evil, full stop, but then gives the good guys ways to do this whilst holding themselves above it all.
Also, >>54391109, what this guy said. It is not ethical, it is efficient, for YOU.
The only time I've seen such a thing not be shit is when I watched a paladin slowly teach a defeated frost giant what it meant to be "good", because it fundamentally did not understand.
It took a long time ingame, and the giant turned on the paladin repeatedly. It required work on the player's part to do this, on top of the giant having the choice to walk away at any time.

>>54391109
*shrugs*

I suppose I was conflating one with the other, yes, but I often tend to do so because resource scarcity affects survival which impacts morality. If you were to discover that an accomplished surgeon has been selectively killing some of his patients and were able to mind rape him into doing what he's supposed to do you're saving more lives.

>>54391174
>The difference is that the game tells you that overriding the free will and sanctity of others is evil, full stop, but then gives the good guys ways to do this whilst holding themselves above it all.

Ah. Yeah, that's fucked.

>>54373238
http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kai-tave/blue-rose/

Probably the most in-depth, unbiased review of this product on the internet. Delves into this question quite a bit. TL;DR: no, it's not a fascist dystopia, you're going to have to find other reasons to hate it. You could say a great many things about the game: the mechanics are bullshit, the setting is far from everyone's cup of tea, and it wears on its sleeve some pretty controversial politics (especially for its time), but it doesn't describe a dystopia. If anything, it describes a situation which many people might find too saccharine, which may be the reason people try to turn it into a dystopia in the first place - many RPG players are so used to dark, cynical settings it's almost absurd how difficult it is for them to accept one that's supposed to be genuinely nice.

The best comparison I've found (sadly, not in the same review) is that Blue Rose is the fantasy version of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Its setting is fundamentally optimistic and upbeat, the main "good guy" faction is designed specifically to appeal to the target audience as a place they'd want to protect, conflict is generally the result of external factors OR aberrant insiders (e.g. a rogue admiral in Star Trek, or a corrupt noble in Blue Rose), and ideally, should be resolved diplomatically by coming to understand the opposition's motive and worldview (e.g. the rogue admiral was doing what he believed was best for the Federation, or the corrupt noble originally got into dark magic to revive his dead children. In the end you MIGHT still have to kill them, but redemption should always at least look like a possibility and potentially carry greater rewards than violence).

I'm not saying it's for everyone, but it helps to see it as what it is and decide for yourself whether you like it or not rather than relying on regurgitated hearsay and memes from /tg/.

>>54390190
>>54390250
>>54391077
You guys sure are good little totalitarian genocidaires. You'd fit right into any fascist or communist party.

>>54391149
Except this is one of the first times in a while someone has brought up this game, and oddly enough, 3 threads all pop up within a few hours of each other all featuring excerpts from the Blue Rose core book.
MYFAROG usually gets a thread every few days, near all of them begin with "Hey, all I heard about the game is politics, is it REALLY a good game?".

>>54391174
>a paladin slowly teach a defeated frost giant what it meant to be "good", because it fundamentally did not understand.
That guy was awesome.

>>54391260
>>54373238

Regarding a few of the most common claims about the setting secretly being a fascist dystopia, and why even skimming through the book rather than a /tg/ meme circlejerk will immediately show you they're wrong:

>The absolute monarch is chosen by a magic deer!

First, Aldis is not even a monarchy in the traditional sense (the titles used for its rulers are actually a relic from the distant past): power is not hereditary and the ruler isn't all powerful. They rule alongside a council of several others and while their voice does count for double, they can still be easily outvoted on almost any issue. The magic deer, meanwhile, doesn't confer its chosen ruler any sort of power or protection: it merely selects it. Technically speaking, there's nothing preventing the people from ignoring his selection and picking a better option however they like at any time. This has happened in the past when the chosen ruler proved to be a dick.

>Nobles are screened by a mind probing device

The Blue Rose scepter doesn't read your thoughts, it merely detects "Shadow Taint". Basically, unless you've murdered or tortured someone or have a habit of dealing with demons, it won't reveal any of your secrets. It also only works once on any given person, which is how corrupt nobles come to be (all they have to do is not kill anyone BEFORE entitlement). As I've mentioned before, the title is a bit of a misnomer since Nobles are, as you've seen, chosen rather than born. They need to pass several aptitude and academic tests and the function is more bureaucratic than anything (I'd say it actually reminds me more of Imperial China and its selected governors than European nobility). It is possible to strip a corrupt noble of their title, if their corruption is proven. The justice system is not flawless, but it does work more often than not (keeping with the setting's generally optimistic bent).

(cont.)

>>54391260
>>54391464
(cont.)

This does not give the children of nobles as much of an unfair advantage as you might think, since Aldis provides free basic education for everyone and even has a system in place to allow disadvantaged students with great potential into its universities (did I mention it has those? In many ways, thanks to omnipresent magitech, it's practically more of a modern society with a medieval aesthetic than a truly medieval one).

>The secret police always read people's minds!

I have no idea where people even get this from, there's nothing even close to it in the book. Presumably, this is the result of some kind of snowballing rumor that started when people began bashing the game for unrelated political reasons and everyone jumped the wagon to show how secretly evil the self-professed leftist wish-fulfillment dream society was. While it's true that Aldis employs telepaths, reading someone's minds without their consent is considered an extremely serious offense and we are flat out told (not by a biased, in-universe document but by canon) that it almost never happens and when it does the parties responsible are dealt with harshly. Actually MANIPULATING someone's mind without their consent is one of the most severe crimes in the setting.

>Criminals are brainwashed into being good citizens!

As above, this isn't true. They are ALLOWED, if they CHOOSE to and CONSENT, to receive psychiatric help from a telepath who will read their mind for the purpose of being able to better assist them. Under no circumstances is said telepath allowed to actually manipulate them and any who does is considered both in-universe and by the canon to be a villain of the highest order. Headbands to inhibit aggression are used only on repeat, extreme offenders on which no other method worked (practically as an alternative to death), and even then, don't result in A Clockwork Orange style mob justice as they only stop INITIATING violence, not retaliating.

(cont.)

>>54391350
The DM was the one who really brought it home, I think.
The giant did what he did because it was what he knew, it got him fed and a place to sleep, kept him alive, and everything else around him did the same, so what made it "bad"?
I could see the player getting frustrated with the fact that he would have to provide solid grounding to justify why being self sacrificing was a noble idea to aspire to, and the player, when we went to drinks after game, would quietly gnash his teeth at the "goddamn DM who is making this so much harder than it ought to be".
I think the real kicker was that eventually, the paladin and giant became friends and held respect for each other, one for his strength, the other for the simplicity of ideals, and that was the hinge that got them to come to an accord.
And so the world's first frost giant paladin was born

>>54373238
>>54391260
>>54391464
>>54391618

In short, as I've said before: the setting is not for everyone. It's a very particular flavor of fantasy, and not everyone has to like or enjoy it. It doesn't try to hide where it's coming from and revels in it completely, but what it does not do is present some sort of Black Mirror style feminazi fantasy dystopia. I mean, it's your game, and if you want to turn the setting into a fascist parody that's your business (God knows how many people tried doing this to the Federation from Star Trek), but there is no reason whatsoever to assume that this was in the books. You could, of course, disagree with a lot of Aldis' value (tolerance, equality, etc.), but for the sake of intellectual honesty, don't try to fool yourself into believing you're actually seeing underneath the surface of some great conspiracy. It simply isn't there. The setting was meant to be wish-fulfillment for a very specific group of people, and isn't any more or less than that.

>>54391715
So... most of what the link from OP said is absolute trash?
>talking shit about Dark Heresy because it didn't take place on a galactic scale on top of being a 3e/4e grognard

>>54391464
>>54391618
>>54391715

What is this bullshit, you sound like you've actually read into the game and done some critical thinking on your own rather than join the /tg/ meme fest or RPGpundit's cult.

Nice reading a summary of Blue Rose that does not default to one interpretation, thank you for your time Anon.

>>54391319
Better a totalitarian than a blood-crazed psychopath.

>>54391715
As a side note, the common "criticism" (put in parentheses since it's most often quoted by people who didn't actually read the book and are parroting people parroting people parroting people parroting internet memes from people who lied about it) of the setting is that it presents one of the other factions in the setting, which is strongly opposed to homosexuality and enforces traditional gender roles, as designated villains.

Once again, this is patently untrue. In fact, I may go as far as to say that Jarzon is presented (ESPECIALLY in the 2nd edition) in a more even and multilayered fashion than the Jovian Republic of Eclipse Phase, whose depiction as a strawman shithole of a junta because it represents values opposed by the developers somehow very few people on this board seem to mind. While it's true that Jarzon opposes many of the values Aldis promotes, they are given a strong in-setting reason to do so and are viewed, at worst, as sympathetically misguided, not evil (as I said, one of the core ideas of the setting is that almost no person is ever truly "evil", just pushed to extremes by life's circumstances and the fact humans are fallible and have understandable flaws). In Jarzon's case, they suffered enormous losses in a war which Aldis emerged from almost unscathed. They don't abide homosexuality since they came so close to extinction they can't afford couples that won't breed, and they force the women to stay at home because what few women they have left are precious and irreplaceable and they don't want them to come to harm. This isn't presented as a GOOD or CORRECT opinion, but it IS presented as very understandable given the national trauma Jarzon has been through. Furthermore, it is emphasized that for all its disagreement with Aldis on politics the Jarzon have many genuine virtues, recognized both in and out-of-universe: they are brave, unyielding, and determined, and they love their families more than anything in the world.

(cont.)

>>54391260
>>54391464
>>54391618
>>54391715
>>54391897

THANK YOU. Blue Rose is not a perfect game (none are), but it is emphatically not a dystopia unless you willfully misread it. It is not for everyone, but frankly it is refreshing in an RPG market dominated by murderhobos and grimdarkness.

>>54391897
Personally, I think Jarzon stands out less as "evil" and more as "cynical" in a setting whose default viewpoint is very optimistic. If Aldis is the Federation, than Jarzon is (pick your favorite) the TNG depiction of the Klingons. The Federation and the Klingons don't always see eye to eye and occasionally come into true conflict but in the end of the day they have a mutual respect for each other's virtues and an understanding that their values differ, and when push comes to shove they will, time and time again, stand side by side to face mutual threats (such as the Dominion in Star Trek or the armies of the Lich King in Blue Rose).

In fact, now that I think about it, Jarzon might be an excellent setting for your game if you want to play in the Blue Rose setting and have a slightly less rose tinted, more grounded experience. The default playstyle is being knights of the Aldean Crown but this is simply for comfort (makes it easiest to send the PCs on missions with little excuse). There's more to be done with the world.

>>54391715
>>54391833

Agreed, it was wonderful to read your assessment. Civil discussions about Blue Rose are hard to find. I have issues with the setting, especially Aldis, but I do like some aspects of its setting, which is why I was asking about how the mechanics worked; most of the things I liked about the setting are parts that informed the design of the system.

I do think that the writers focused too much on making Aldis as nice as possible, to the point of throwing things in to forcibly head off concerns about the setting not being as nice as it looks. If Aldis had just been a bit more flawed, I think I would have really liked the setting, and it is growing on me as I think more about it.

On the other hand, if I want to run a fantasy RPG set in an egalitarian meritocracy with utopian aspirations, I think I'll still default to Loskalm.

>>54386653
I went googling, and found that it's just that Mercedes Lackey is generally defensive on her IP. Nothing about politics.

(Unless you want to argue that pedophilia is related to left or right wing politics. But I'm not considering insane discourse as serious arguments.)

http://www.mercedeslackey.com/am_games.html

>>54392293
>I went googling, and found that it's just that Mercedes Lackey is generally defensive on her IP. Nothing about politics.


Actual research, what a novel idea.

I appreciate you went through the effort Anon. The Anon I replied to specifically claimed Mercedes had told the Blue Rose team to go fuck themselves, something I've still not seen any proof of. I'm going to assume he was just blowing it out of his ass.

>>54392367
Hi again

I found this, which is quite better:
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mercedes_Lackey%27s_Attitudes_Toward_Role-Playing_Games_Set_in_Her_Own_Universe

TL;DR: Mercedes Lackey writes for money. Her agents believe (and I tend to concur) that RPGs represent more of a risk for the brand than a good source of income. There's the implied suggestion that the Valdemar setting would be pedophile bait in MUSHes, but I don't know, as I'm not familiar with the genre.

>The Anon I replied to specifically claimed Mercedes had told the Blue Rose team to go fuck themselves, something I've still not seen any proof of. I'm going to assume he was just blowing it out of his ass.
Due to "politics", on top of that. I found it curious too, so I started looking around.

It's really not worth playing. It's another case of "Let's shove political bullshit on top of bad rules and sell it so people can role play inside of their echo chamber" in fantasy heart breaker format. You and your group would only be able to stand it if you were all from Tumblr. Even then you are better off playing 5E as it is a legitimately better system.

>>54391260
That's also a good comparison when it comes to the primary challenges in the setting. In many of those threads, if/once someone manages to finally convince people it's at least *supposed* to be seen as a utopia, the most common next step in the "I will hate this game on principle no matter what" track is to argue that it couldn't have conflict.

Untrue. Like the Federation in Star Trek, just because the viewpoint faction is presented as overall good, the setting is idealistic and nobody is irredeemably EVIL doesn't mean there's no conflict. Off the top of my head:

* Like the Federation, Aldis' wilds are untamed and full of unexplored ruins of previous ages, monsters and demons.

* Just because society isn't a grimdark shithole and the justice system isn't a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean it's omnipresent or omnipotent. There are plenty of outlaws and to worry about in the countryside (and just because they aren't EVIL doesn't mean they won't shank you. It means you could potentially resolve the conflict by understanding the poverty that drives them and find a constructive solution rather than murdering them)

* For that matter, there's a criminal syndicate operating within the kingdom's cities. They, too, aren't EVIL, but in practice they still deal drugs, prostitute, assassinate, etc.

* Nobles can and do go bad from time to time. Nobody's a villain in their own minds and they all have their reasons for doing so (even if it's just "selfishness"), but corruption does exist.

* There's a Lich King with vast sorcerous powers and legions of undead and demons gnawing at the edges of the realm. He's invaded it in the past been pushed back, but at a great cost, and it would love to finish the job. He's the closest thing the setting has to a non-cosmically evil entity who is nevertheless presented as flat out "bad" rather than just misguided. Even so, it's more a case of "he's incredibly power hungry and selfish", so at least he's got SOME motivation.

>>54392911
With all that in mind, the intention is still for most conflict in the game to be resolved diplomatically. If there's a feud between rival houses, the default solution should be to try and find a way to mend it, not kill one of the two. If someone's turned to dark sorcery, you should be aiming to understand why and see if you can help them find a better path, not just slay them. Even in the history of the setting, the great war with the Lich King wasn't ultimately won by beating up all of his monsters, it was won by finding out that many people were only working for him because he was holding their loved ones hostage back home and saving those instead. It still involved a lot of combat, death and sacrifice but the mindset was more TNG and less 40K.

Is any of this good? I'll join the chorus here and say it's for you to decide. You may think that a setting that's so optimistic is silly, or that a game with so little potential fighting is boring, and that would be fine. Just make an informed decision.

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I remember a thread from many years ago where someone came to complain to /tg/ about a Blue Rose campaign they were in.

Basically, another player had consulted /tg/ in a thread the week before about what kind of player character would most fuck up the setting, and the thread consensus ended up that he should roleplay as Rance.

Another player caught on and posted a thread complaining about it on /tg/. He had created a character called "Lance" (complete with sharp teeth and plate mail under a green cape) and earned bonus exp from the GM in the first round by defusing a bandit encounter by defeating their best warrior in single combat and seducing their leader.

Unfortunately I was never able to find the original thread or any follow up ones.

>>54391183
>ends justify means!

I cast a spell on this child, if you rape it, one thousand needless deaths of decent people before their natural causes claim them will be averted.

>>54393600
You know, the award winning pilot episode of a certain British TV series revolved entirely around a man's internal struggles regarding whether or not to have sex with a pig on TV to save a person's life.

Oh, and, you know. The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas, widely considered a thought provoking science fiction masterpiece. It's basically about that, too.

>>54393829
>You know, the award winning pilot episode of a certain British TV series revolved entirely around a man's internal struggles regarding whether or not to have sex with a pig on TV to save a person's life.

I never knew David Cameron was a hero.

>>54393891
A protagonist isn't the same as a hero, anon.

>>54386545
It's a fantasy setting that's run by a Fascist state that the authors make out to be the good guys. Social advancement is at the whims of a magical artifact that purports to tell one's true motives, but the only people capable of handling it are the cabal who are already in power and an ancient awakened animal whose motives are inscrutable to mortal men.

The enemies are a caricature of Christianity and Arthas from Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne.

>>54394356
See:
>>54391260
>>54391464
>>54391618
>>54391715
>>54391897
>>54391977

>>54391897
2e changed a shitload of the lore. I don't think it's right to highlight anything from it as a critique of RPG Pundit's review of the 1st edition (before 2e even came out). They mopped up a LOT of politics in the second book and made the other factions much more three-dimensional.

Unfortunately AGE isn't great, so it's not a huge leap forward.

>>54394424
see:
>>54394522

2e is nothing like 1e in terms of setting. They backed off all of the political bits by a mile, and even portray Jarzon as being right in a sense. The anon whose posts you're reading is only talking about 2e lore, which is way, way better.

>>54394522
>>54394554
From what it looks like, almost all the information in those posts correlates accurately to the stuff found in the "FATAL and Friends" review here >>54391260, which was written about the first edition and indeed before the second was even announced.

If the 2nd edition is even better, all the better, but the first wasn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

>>54386638
Dude, you want to shoot someone for baneposting. You might be the one who's mentally ill, fag.

what are peoples opinions on AGE as a system?

I remember playing it a bit when the dragon age tabletop rpg came out it was pretty brutal.

how different is the blue rose version?

>>54391878
Bullshit. "Death is not the worst of evils."

>>54396004
I think it's supposed to be a bit more polished, but overall it's basically the same thing. Your experience won't be radically different except for the setting.

>>54373238
On a side note. Does anyone know if someone has home-brewed more specializations for Fantasy AGE.

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>>54373238
The best thing to come out of Blue Rose was the True20 RPG books. One of the best takes on the D20 OGL, and still readily available.

I don't run much OGL these days, but True20 would be my go to if I ever felt like GMing a d20-based game again.

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>>54399998
M&M uses a riff on it. I like it a lot. Toughness has become one of my favorite ways to handle damage.

>>54386401
Actually it's been used as a slang for cum around 2014.

>>54394356
>and Arthas
Arthas was the reason why I quit that game. He was an absolute bitch and I wasn't going to put up with having to enable his retardedness to play the game.

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>>54377983
>>54378235
>>54379081
>>54383600
>>54386780
>>54391260
People beat me to the Star Trek analogy that is totally accurate. It's set in an progressive advance enlightened utopian socially much like the Federation is.

Now in a science-fiction. That makes sense and people can more or less accept it in that kind of without issue.

Blue Rose on the other hand despited is much toted liberal outlook, is still very much a conventional, old-fashioned and *romanticised* Fantasy setting.

So you have a setting where people hold feudalistic ideals like divine right of rule kings and the like, while still pushing "modern" ideas of gender roles and social tolerance.

It's not like Warhammer or game of thrones where they play that shit to the hilt for grimdark, or like in Dnd they were they just try to tell you to ignore it. It makes its social skills front and centre while still trying to keep up the classic trappings.

Blue Roses wants to have Fantasy cake and eat it, and personally speaking it just doesn't work. It like turning up to an anti fur protest while still in your leather fetish gimp suit

>>54401879
Did you miss the part where the king of the primary country doesn't have divine right and neither nobility nor royalty is inherited?

>>54373238
I read into it a little. I think one of the prepared adventures was about a prince coming out of the closet so that was pretty kek worthy.

Aside from that, a magic deer picks the local ruler, not sure what its criteria is.

>>54386780
Sure, but it's also interesting to ask what happens when such a society runs up against a diplomacy-immune apocolyptic threat like the Borg.

>>54401962
>>54401950
>Did you miss the part where the king of the primary country doesn't have divine right and neither nobility nor royalty is inherited?

Oh it's a monarchy alright. Only the divine part is quite literal. The golden Hart pick who is purist of heart for the job.

Which is good apparently because she's mystically a great judge of character. Even though the game itself tell us rulers can (and have) later turn evil after they got picked.

>>54402134
Look the fucking deer can't see the future OK I think the fact it can pick someone who is good and capable RIGHT NOW is pretty impressive

If you want a deer that can see the future train your own

>>54402134
The Doe's basically Schrödinger's judge of character. The result is correct, but the process of measuring doesn''t guarantee that the state measured is a stable one.

Eh, the only problem I have with this notion is... how do I make things better? There's not much room for improvement. Everything is just kind of... OK. Not perfect. But I feel no heroic drive to lead the land into a golden age.

>>54402173
>>54402180
I'm sure the Hart means well, but that doesn't change the fact Strange Woodland creatures handing out crowns>>54402202
is no basis for a system of government.

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical animal ceremony!

>>54402202
You just have to keep the conflict external. If in doubt just copy game of thrones and have dragons and/or zombies invade.

>>54401879
>So you have a setting where people hold feudalistic ideals like divine right of rule kings and the like, while still pushing "modern" ideas of gender roles and social tolerance.

Why do these two conflict?

How does a form of government stop me from being open about having butt-buddies? Especially when you got MAGIC! to just fix whatever problems it'd actually cause/causes right now.

>>54402202

That's not really what Blue Rose is about; that sounds more like Exalted. But if you want to do that in Aldea, just set your game in Jarzon. It's got a repressive government, constant fear of invasion, poor farming conditions, and a people who are still traumatised by what happened to their ancestors under the Sorceror Kings. Plenty of ròom for improvement.

>>54402251
>I'm sure the Hart means well, but that doesn't change the fact Strange Woodland creatures handing out crowns>>54402202
>is no basis for a system of government.
>Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical animal ceremony!

If recent years have taught us anything it's that elections are farcical ceremonies

>>54401950
>>54402134
>>54402173
>>54402180
>>54402251
>>54402344
Did any of you guys actually READ the book, or are you just talking about stuff you've heard? Because the book makes abundantly clear that while people are normally inclined to listen to the deer (since for the most part its chosen correctly in the past), its choice is by no means binding or even really meaningful in any way but symbolic. Yes, the deer protects his chosen leader on the way to the coronation but the moment that's over, this is it. It doesn't grant them power, it doesn't enforce their rule, it doesn't do anything. There have been times in the past where the ruler was ousted and replaced with a democratically elected one, and even when they're not they aren't even absolute rulers, they merely get a double vote in a council otherwise consisting purely of democratically elected officials.

This game has its problems. You really don't need to go around making up ones that don't exist just so you could better justify disliking its politics.

>>54402344
> if recent years have told us anything it's electrons are farcical ceremonies

Touchè.

So did they change System between editions what's the opinion preferred version.

I did like True20, if only because was best "basically 3.5 but not a broken mess" system at the time.

I haven't played the AGE systerm but I like the idea of the stunt system.

I tried running the Dragon age starter module but couldn't get pass the constant "elfs lives matter" stuff, so I don't know what I'm myself in for with Blue Rose.

>>54402376
Rather uninspiring. I don't know if the term "fantasy heartbreaker" truly applies, since it's not based on D&D, but it pretty much is just a completely run-of-the-mill, zero-risk-zero-innovation generic fantasy system with all the trappings. 3d6 roll over, add attributes and "focuses" (skill) "talents" which function basically like feats, Warrior-Mage-Thief type three class arrangement, etc. Its "claim to fame" is the Stunt Point system but it's really not the kind of mindblowing mechanical revolution I'd go buy a game for. The best I can say for the system is that it doesn't get in the way, and I suppose that for many people with this kind of game that's pretty much exactly what they were aiming for in any case. It shouldn't be at all difficult to convert this to whatever your favorite fantasy system is.

>>54373238
>not trusting your magical deer kingmaker

The deer knows what's best for us all anon

>>54402998
No, but it can make suggestions >>54402369
It has a good track record, so you can keep it in mind when deciding whether or not to go with it. Or you can ignore it completely, it's up to you.

>>54402344
>If recent years have taught us anything it's that elections are farcical ceremonies

Only if both parties are united in ther active hatred for the majority of your population and rely on minorities of the electorate to win their mandates while the majority instinctively recognizes that this one election is their one chance to slam their government with an avatar of their class.

Oh, also being a nations where the actual application of the law is left up to silent gentlemen's agreements between political actors sure does help a whole fucking lot.

>>54391260
>>54391464
>>54391618
>>54391715
>>54391897
>>54391977
Someone really ought to make a screencap out of those. Opening every Blue Rose thread with it has the potential to save an enormous deal of bullshit. Imagine if we could actually talk about the game rather than getting angry at the politics we were told were in it.

>>54373238
Does anyone know whether they've decided to eventually do the steampunk setting suggested as a stretch goal for the 2e KS? I know it was never reached but a lot of people begged for it and I personally see it as a deal breaker. It interests me a lot more than the core fantasy setting, I will buy it only if it comes out.

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>>54403230
How am I doing?

>>54403230
People will get angry at it anyway. The sort of conservatives that get a kick from spewing bile about egalitarism and feel that their hobby is threatened by fantasies of mostly harmonious realms are going to bash it just because there might be something like that somewhere.

>>54407830
DESU I think the Fatal and Friends review is a bit too apologetic. It has a justification of certain individual elements without engaging with whether the work succeeds as a whole.

I'd call Blue Rose anti-modern (in the sense of feudal, counterrevolutionary, and traditionalist). Calling it "fascist" is ridiculous because concepts like fascism, communism and representative democracy are concepts associated linked entirely with modernism (albeit with older roots). If anything it's a return to Tolkien, with orcs and elves and a war of the just, established order against the evil darklord (consider how much the fantasy concept of the evil overlord is based on how the traditional order viewed upstarts like Napoleon).

Blue Rose was a return to form at the same time that D&D was increasingly distancing itself from Tolkien. In D&D the heroes are often weirdos, outcasts, and drifters who exist outside the established social order.

I'd also point out Blue Rose's focus on betrayal as the primary evil, which is a very pre-modern sensibility. Contrast Judas, Brutus, and Cassius being tortured endlessly in the mouth of Lucifer for betrayal to how modernity is fundamentally inseparable from revolution.

>>54384081
this

>>54391618
>As above, this isn't true. They are ALLOWED, if they CHOOSE to and CONSENT, to receive psychiatric help from a telepath who will read their mind for the purpose of being able to better assist them. Under no circumstances is said telepath allowed to actually manipulate them and any who does is considered both in-universe and by the canon to be a villain of the highest order. Headbands to inhibit aggression are used only on repeat, extreme offenders on which no other method worked (practically as an alternative to death), and even then, don't result in A Clockwork Orange style mob justice as they only stop INITIATING violence, not retaliating.

So do you choose the headband, or is it forced on you? Do you go to prison in this setting, and do they put the headband on you in there, or only in regular life?

>>54413491
Headbands are used in situations which in real life would've gotten the death penalty. If you get to such a situation, you're given the option of permanent exile, or the headband.

>>54402318
Isn't Exalted 'Things were great once, now they're OK, soon they will be terrible'?

Only read the 2e fluff, but Creation went from a golden First Age, to a series of catastrophes, to a pseudo-stable Realm run by Terrestrials and an Empress, to bureaucratic inertia and Deathlords showing up to cause trouble. If you play as Dragon-Blooded, sure, you might be more interested in playing politics instead of utopias, but Solars and Lunars are all about that shit.

>>54390190
No, it literally doesn't, and don't even bother responding unless you pull up the specific page citation of an officially produced WotC or TSR book. No, my goalposts aren't shifting because I'm refusing sources from outside sources because they are not D&D, they are homebrew.

You have 10 minutes before I call you a fag.

>>54413925

I meant that if you want play a game about driven heroes leading the warld into a new golden age, Exalted would be more suitable for you than Blue Rose. Creation has a lot wrong with it, but your characters have the power and motivarion to try and fix it. By contrast, as you said, Aldis is so nice that there's not much the PCs can do to make it better.

>>54414158
Consult >>54392911
And that's just Aldis itself. There's an entire setting out there and while it's the default location, there's no reason your whole game can't be about guerilla warriors hiding in the frozen mountains of Kern fighting the armies of the Lich King from within his own kingdom.

>>54390190
You're a fag.

>>54414189

I'm not saying that there's no room to make Aldis better, just that leading the world into a new golden age isn't really what Blue Rose is about. And I'm not saying that you can't run a Blue Rose game about that, just that it's not the default assumption, and that the setting wasn't primarily built to support that the way a setting like Creation was. Certainly, setting the game outside Aldis would make that style of campaign easier.

>>54407830
There's no proof to any of these claims, by the way. No one hear has "read" this other then that anon, who is in all likely a shill.

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>>54414425
Oh gee, if only there was a way to check those claims...

>>54414487
That comic works left-to-right and right-to-left

>>54414293
>>54414127
Now that I've intentionally waited for you to get egg on your face looking like a jackass, "Sanctify the Wicked" is a spell form the Book of Exalted Deeds (yes, published by WotC you mouth breather) that traps an Evil creature's soul inside a gem and forces it to become Good. It is considered a Good spell, and requires the player character to have access and to Sanctified spellcasting. Canonically, casting this is one of the highest-in setting goods possible.

Dickhead.

>>54414425
It also correlates almost precisely with the review linked, if that's any the matter.

But yeah, not exactly the epitome of intellectual honesty to base your opinions on someone's report, decide arbitrarily that any report to the contrary has to be shilling and then refusing on principal to check either claim.

>>54414536
>I need page numbers, because I'm too dumb for google!
Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 106

>This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul from the body of an evil creature and traps it in a diamond receptacle (the spell's focus). The creature's soulless body instantly withers or molders into dust.

>Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness. Over time, this spark grows into a burning fire. After one year, the trapped creature's soul adopts the alignment of the spell's caster (lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good). Once the soul's penitence is complete, shattering the diamond reforms the creature's original body, returns the creature's soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature (see Chapter 8: Monsters).

>>54414425
>likely a shill
I think you're grossly overestimating that practice. Like, I wouldn't say there aren't shills on /tg/, but it sometimes feels like people use that term almost as a kneejerk defense. EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME ON A PRODUCT IS A SHILL. How the hell childishly egocentric does one have to be to assume it's completely impossible for someone to have a different opinion unless they were paid to?

>>54414598
Welcome to the modern-day internet. Be glad that it's (mostly) contained here instead of out in the real world.

>>54402994
>>54407830
>Jazion is no more heavy-handed than the Jovina Republic, and I don't see people complain about that

Whoever wrote this must of really been on different threads because the Jovina republics probably the most contentious part Eclispe Phase. Everybody on /tg/ says it reads like a painful list of groups the writers don't like. That works mainly as a strawman.

(although I got to admit it does make sense to them want to emulate American culture, if not values. It represents a golden age of man long since passed, like how the Romans emulated the Greeks)

Butting in, but much as I dislike the game itself I got to side with the Blue Rose people here. This attitude just isn't fair. If someone came to /tg/ and started shatting all over Warhammer 40K despite never having read it, people would be screaming their heads off to get the fuck back to Tumblr. It's okay to dislike a game, including one you haven't read, but at least give people the benefit of the doubt when discussing what you admittedly don't know about.

>>54414425
I've read both editions. It's not unusable, but that anon is giving it a VERY charitable review.

>>54414628
The weird part is that the Jovians are Latinos with a South American caudillo dictatorship that's forcibly been shifted to American cultural memes by the writers to critique American society. It's not even very internally consistent.

>>54414829
So did I. And he's not lying. Sure, he might be sugracoating the presentation, but given that most of the rest of the internet's approach seems to be either to really smear shit on it or just outright lie, I'd say that's reasonable.

>>54414659
>>54409974
>>54402369
Go to admit I did skim read it. Stuff like the Hart chosen still needed to be elected and can be stripped of power does make the social utopia aspect a bit easier to swallow, then Divine mandate.

Mind you are Blue Rose is hardly unique in that regard. People hold crazy misconceptions most games. Like how in Dnd natural 1s are critical fumbles and you only get XP for killing the monsters. Hell no one reads the book on how to actually play monopoly, and that's a fucking pamphlet.

>>54414864
>The weird part is that the Jovians are Latinos with a South American caudillo dictatorship that's forcibly been shifted to American

Which is strange as it sounds actually does make sense. South American dictators and revolutionaries took a lot of inspiration from their cousins north of broader. Them getting a collective nostalgia boner for good old Apple Pie America post fall I could buy.

Shame the writers turn them into simply a "red state" stand in.

>>54392530
>There's the implied suggestion that the Valdemar setting would be pedophile bait in MUSHes
I just read all that shit and I have absolutely no idea where that was implied.

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>>54392530
>Her agents believe (and I tend to concur) that RPGs represent more of a risk for the brand than a good source of income

That was probably a wise move. Blue Rose does carry a lot of bad press justified or not. So she probably considered she dodged a bullet there.

Household brand names like can get away putting their license onto absolute shit like the Indianna Jones RPG and still come out smelling like roses. But she doesn't have that sort of Wilman credibility to burn.

Hell I've read storm constantine wraeththu books and found them to be imaginative and enjoyable, yaoi fetishesm aside.

I would not have touched her works with a 10 foot pole if I found out about her via the official wraeththu rpg.
If they had only heard about her friend

>>54414536
>Sanctify the Wicked

Not the person you're arguing with but I remember people fucking hated that shit when it came out and it caused all sorts of arguments online. It tended to be listed alongside the fucking "not-poison poisons because we decided that because Paladins don't use poison that using a tranquilizer dart is Evil" Ravages as a reason why the BOED was stupid. It exists for the same reason too: because the BOVD was a success so they decided to copy it chapter by chapter with mirrored "good" content, and it's the mirror of Mindrape from BOVD.

If you just google "Sanctify the Wicked" the third result is a tumblr post where someone defending it admits that everyone actually thinks it's evil:
http://lawfulgoodness.tumblr.com/post/113546419482/why-everybody-is-wrong-about-sanctify-the-wicked
>So because I seem to be in the minority of people who thinks “Sanctify the Wicked” is not an inherently evil spell, or even an inherently asshat spell, here is my defense of “Sanctify the Wicked.”

Given that spell attracted so much arguments and condemnation despite existing in a world with all sorts of baby-eating Evil people are running around and becoming petitioners to serve Hell or the Abyss when they die, anything remotely similar in a setting where the villains are slightly more sympathetic is bound to attract even more hostility

>>54415713
>It tended to be listed alongside the fucking "not-poison poisons because we decided that because Paladins don't use poison that using a tranquilizer dart is Evil"

Damn I was trying to make a Paladin who had a code against killing (it was an urban campaign so I was going for Batman style take of the dark knight) and ran into this exact problem.

>>54415966
At that point I'd hope most DMs would allow your character to have an alternative version of "acting with honor" if you asked first. Even just not killing unnecessarily is far more restrictive, that's a lot of people to tie up and lug around after the wizard casts Sleep.

I can understand why the default code has it - because a poison taboo was part of chivalry and Paladins are immune to poison so they'd all just be using it untrained if they could. But declaring it to actually be evil instead of an arbitrary code of honor was going full retard.

>>54416519
Actually they're not even immune to poison in 3.5, only disease. I think that might have been a 2e thing or something.

>>54387747
I never liked the dolphins.
Neo-chimps were best, especially in The Uplift War.

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>>54390402
Or you could look into Eclipse Phase. Or any generic game like Savage Worlds or Fate.

>>54414536
D&D supports killing evil babies, yes.

You probably get extra good-boy points for every evil pregnant female you kill too.

>>54414617
Hah, its spilled out via social media.

>>54419950
Yeah, D&D's alignment system is all sorts of morally nuts. At least Blue Rose keeps its own focused mostly on cosmically aligned entities and leaves the rest of it to what are basically "character flaws".

>>54413925
Exalted is "Things were great once, then the Gods fucked it up then things were pretty good, then everyone in charge went fucking insane, then things were OK, now they're awful and the worlds probably ending soon"

>>54414568
...So it's a rehabilitation spell?

Honestly the only part I don't like is the "it changes to YOUR Alignment"

That's the part that smacks of brainwashing. If it turned to "any good" or even "any non-evil" it would be far more acceptable

>>54415966
>Paladin who had a code against killing
Then you chose the wrong class, Paladins are literally armed killers, their whole concept is tied up within the ideaology of holy war.

>>54420876
You say "rehabilitation", someone else would say "brainwashing". To rehabilitate someone you need to decide on certain standards to which it's worthwhile to bring them, and that does mean very brutally forcing your value system on them.

>>54420902
>You say "rehabilitation", someone else would say "brainwashing"
And that someone would be a fucking faggot. Teaching people not to be fucking assholes isn't brainwashing. Hence why I said I think it should shift their alignment to "any non-evil". They still preserve their agency, they may still not even be nice people. But they understand the logic of morality, which is a system of co-operation and self denial intended to promote success for everyone

>>54420947
>Teaching people not to be fucking assholes isn't brainwashing

Sure, and everyone agrees with that. But what constitutes not being a fucking asshole? Is racial tolerance good or bad? Is religiosity good or bad? Is it moral to know and accept your place in the world or to strive for more? How about killing people? When is it or isn't it moral? What should be your solution to the trolley problem? Is socialism more moral than capitalism?

Everyone's going to have different opinions on those and to force them on someone else isn't always so clear-cut as a moral action.

>>54420977
Hence "any non-evil"

>>54414829
>I've read both editions. It's not unusable, but that anon is giving it a VERY charitable review.
Could you back up your empty words with screencaps from the book?

I want MUH CULTURE WAR assholes to leave

>>54420977
>But what constitutes not being a fucking asshole? Is racial tolerance good or bad?
lmao

>>54373238
One is very much the same as the other.
To have a complete social justice utopia you need 100% perfect control over every aspect of the lives of not just your subjects but anyone they come into contact with.

>>54420876
The part that stops it from seeming like rehabilitation is that if the process is interrupted, the subject becomes enraged and tries to kill you.

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Personally I've always fancied doing a game in the Blue Rose setting playing as members of Patriarchy House.
Because they live right next to rapelandia, home of the Lich King and his 1,000,000 fully erect minions just hankering to destroy life, while at their back they have a bunch of conniving liberal fucks who are perfectly happy to undermine their society on the low key because they're just more morally upstanding (Plz ignore anyone killed by out interference weakening your government/Kingdom, they are martyrs to the cause of gay marriage)

>You are the woodsman that goes out to get fire for the hearth, to keep the night at bay, your wives are waiting at home with your children and the darkness rises in the north like the moon.
>Feed the fire, protect your loved ones, go forth so that Jarzon survive maybe another cold, dark night.

I just think it'd be kind of fun really.

>>54423045

yeah this has promise

reading this thread over the last few days convinced me to pick up Blue Rose 2e

if I ran it, the plan would be to set up the PCs as Jarzonites who only know of Aldis through rumor

would be interesting to see what the PCs came to think of Aldis for themselves: smug Federation assholes or genuinely preferable society?

I'm wondering how bad Jarzon seems to PCs that are not gay (and/or women?)

>>54424349
>I'm wondering how bad Jarzon seems to PCs that are not gay (and/or women?)
It's a ravaged, charred medieval shithole whereas Aldis' casual magitech means common people have running water, indoor toilets, long range communication and modern standards of education and medicine. Your personal politics need to be REALLY important to you to prefer the first over the second.

>>54422429
Unfortunately the only one I saved was 2e, which I personally quite like.

>>54424639

it won't be so black and white for the PCs

they may hear some rumors of material comfort in Aldis

but they will hear other rumors about how the people of Aldis are degenerates, etc

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>>54424639
Dem gays have to be really important for you to live in the second, declare yourself a liberal that loves all the worlds fluffy little bunnies.
Then tell the people that live in the first one to git fucked rather than helping them.
I swear, it's the same as the Coastal cities in America
>Hey we got this area with incredibly high poverty rates, massive drug problems, a serious lack of employment prospects, ravished by a lack of infrastructure, a food health crisis *coughobesitycough*, absurd economic disasters caused by big corps and shameless corruption in local government, we're starting a charity, do you want to help?
>Oh god, that sounds terrible, what stricken african hellhole is this! I'll go get my wallet
>Actually it's the Texa-
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>54424876
>Dem gays have to be really important for you to live in the second, declare yourself a liberal that loves all the worlds fluffy little bunnies.
Or I could just much rather like to have indoor plumbing and a chance for social advancement over dying from cholera at age 8. There are people who care more about that sort of shit than politics, believe it or not.

>>54424951
So why don't they help Jarzon out of the Dark Ages? They have the power to do it, but they seem to refuse because of politics.

>>54373238
>Is the world of the Blue Rose RPG a social-justice utopia or a fascist dystopia?
Yes.

>>54375129
>imacentrist.png

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>>54373238
>a social-justice utopia or a fascist dystopia?
These are literally the same thing in practice.

>>54424951
Read the second sentence as well mate.
The important thing is, they have the capacity to help Jarzon and don't.
Because politics.
So all those 8 year olds dying from Cholera? Absolutely preventable if Aldis would just take a step back and go 'these people are human too and they need my help' rather than 'Fuck you for having opinions I don't agree with, I hope you watch, bleeding out as the orcs rape your beloved wife and prolapse your daughter, they deserve it for their internalized misogyny'
That's the difference between 'liberal' and 'progressive'

>>54425020
>>54425164

Actually, they do. Both sides of this argument are being more extreme and idiotic than anyone within the setting, which is some achievement.

Jarzon isn't a "shithole", it's a country that's suffered a massive war years ago and is well on its way to recovering, in large part (but NOT *largely*) due to help from Aldis. It's less the difference between New York and Somalia and more like between Germany and Spain. Yeah, one's massively richer and more advanced than the other, but at the end of the day few people go hungry and everyone has television (at least by medieval standards, obviously. Which anon is also hugely exaggerating. It's been a while since I read the books but I really don't think EVERYONE in Aldis has access to those luxuries. I think they're mostly limited to larger cities). Aldis provides aid to Jarzon but just like in real life, politics and the economy on both sides tends to mess shit up. Not all Jarzon even WANT help from Aldis (less because of the politics and more because they're bitter that they took the brunt of the war while Aldis only joined in at the last moment, claimed victory and called itself a big savior), and like I mentioned, Aldis isn't nearly as much of a post-scarcity utopia as some people here would like to make it. It's RICH, but not infinitely rich. It has its own shit to deal with, and the very LEAST of it is pampered assholes who (and I really didn't want to go there), like some folks, hold the belief that if dudes far away have it hard then tough shit, only so much cake to go around. Meanwhile, MILITARY cooperation between the two has been ongoing the whole time, with Aldis providing mainlymages and Jarzon most of the grunts. There are also conflicts there, but on the frontlines the differences diminish.

Notice how throughout this whole thing, gender politics don't eve ncome up.

It's really fucking tragic when self-professed feminists write more nuanced settings than /tg/ can seem to grasp.

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Can somebody give me an entry from the book about Jarzon's standard of living/technological level? I find it hard to believe that you'd have magitech Federation right next to a medieval kingdom and somehow the medieval kingdom doesn't get some technological boost from trade/spying.

Because having two wildly different nations with entirely different technological levels somehow maintain their wildly different technological levels just seems like bad kitchen sink-esque worldbuilding.

>>54425252
Anon is being a retard. Aldis magitech AT BEST offers an early modern quality of life, and even then, only in the larger cities. Still miles better than Jarzon but if you were imagining the Citadel from Mass Effect on the other side of Altdorf from Warhammer, this isn't the case.

Also, Jarzon has nearly the same magitech capacity as Aldis. What they can't do is effectively provide it for the populace because:
A. They don't trust magic nearly as much and
B. All their resources need to be spent on things like surviving the next attack by demons and most of that shit is seen as pointless luxuries which are nice to have when possible (say, in the well defended capital) but really can't be afforded every frontier hamlet.

>only the faggiest of faggots would want to enjoy a high quality of life if it meant having anything to do with those despicable egalitarians!
>but oh how evil and selfish those egalitarians are for not providing constant assistance to the people who hate them!

You literally just said yourself, like the post before, you'd never want to live in Aldis no matter how much quality of life there is better. What makes you think the proud Jarzon want any help from those sissies?

>>54425388
Anon I don't think anyone has said they wouldn't want to live in a nicer country if it means tolerating THEM FEGGERTS
Point me to a single post which has.

>>54425417

>>54424876
He was just flat out told how much better things were there, and his response was "you'd have to be a cucked gay". It's made very obvious (and if that wasn't his intention, he has issues with expressing himself) that he thinks politics should trump comfort in this situation.

>>54425450
Mother fucker that was my post.
Two lines.
One after the fucking other.
>The gays have to be really important to you if you declare yourself the Most Liberal then tell the people in shitholeville that they can eat a dick because they don't approve of the gays
It's the equivalent of how California doesn't pay for its politicians to go to certain states anymore because fuck the south.
Do you even read? I even started the sentence with a preposition to make it clear that the emphasis was being put on the contrast in deeds and thoughts.

>>54425245
>It's really fucking tragic when self-professed feminists write more nuanced settings than /tg/ can seem to grasp.

I think it's because they were trying to make a fun setting for them to play games in. People really want to bitch about them "pushing their agenda," but really, you gotta go looking for stuff to be mad about. They're just doing their thing.

>>54373238

This sounds like a survival horror setting. I usually play Lawful Good characters, but everything about this makes me want to storm through their capital and put everyone to the sword for witchcraft.

>>54424876

I think it helps when, not only did the locals vote to be in that situation, they keep voting to do so. Ideally, you still want to help them, but it breeds a lot of resentment when, if you try to do so at the federal level, they curse your name and declare you an incarnate evil.

It's like the old saying goes: America is a balding, diabetic, obese 300 pound gorilla that will maul you if you try to give it healthcare.

>>54424639
To be fair that describes the situation of ISIS, the Taliban and similar groups perfectly. Our country is shit and we are still better than you because we are pure in our faith.

>>54426229
Are those really the guys you'd want to compare yourself to, though?

>>54386638
For you.

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>>54373238
Sounds rad and very relevant to my interests.

>>54414568
You know, the thing that people don't quite get about Santify the Wicked it's that it doesn't just changes the creature alignment to Good, it also turns the target in a Sanctified creature i.e. it basically infuses the creature body and soul with capital-g Good.

>>54373238
Serious question: What would be the fallout if the magical deer picked a ruler who proved woefully wrong for the job?

>>54435453
See >>54402369

>>54435494
Okay, fine. Different question: What happens if some hunter fuck kills the deer?

>>54425288
So Aldis is only well off because Jarzon is acting like a buffer state between them and the legions of hell?

>>54435537
Probably the same way as somebody that just killed the Queen of England

>>54435537
It would be very tragic, and the world would be diminished by its passing, but life would go on.

>>54435578
Yes, which is why Aldis provides them with military aid just like US to Israel lol

>>54435995
That sounds more like the US to Mexico if South America had a sudden zombie outbreak.

>>54388884

It's clearly described as sorcery (bad mojo) when used on an unwilling subject. It mentions people who commit crimes and absolutely refuse it are branded and exiled instead. This "mind rape" meme is mostly RPGPundit's poor understanding of what he's reading.

>>54391464

I didn't think anyone else would think of the China comparison, but it's definitely occurred to me. You have done your reading, of the game and in general.

>>54425288

So really, we're talking the difference between the affluent West and the Soviet bloc? Same technical level, but the distribution is different and the Soviets shortchange civilian wants for strategic needs?

>>54425939

This. Lib here. We'd be glad to invest in infrastructure in the hinterland. That was a big part of LBJ's Great Society push back in the day. But the yokels prefer freedumb and going to church with their guns. I really don't get it.

>>54435537

You ever seen Princess Mononoke? There's a scene like that. It doesn't go well.

>>54373238

What if I think imperialism is good?

What if I think a pure hierarchy, where your worth is measured by your usefulness to the state is good?

What if I think that the ultimate utopia is where one has no free will and is subsumed by the collective?

What if I think that the perfect utopia is one where everyone is hyper-individualistic, where humans never see another human being and each human has 100k drones serving their every whim?

What if I think that that a utopia is a technofascistic state, where all are laid at the altar of science?

>>54385657

The only remotely similar thing I could find is this, from http://www.mercedeslackey.com/am_games.html


Q: I'm writing thanks to a discussion over on the ENWorld message boards regarding a Valdemar RPG. I thought I'd express my support for such a project. And, at the same time, present a proposal.

Proposal: Allow the establishment of an official Valdemar RPG site. A place to present information for Valdemar campaigns etc. This could also be used to gauge the demand for a published Valdemar RPG book, whether full fledged game, setting, or a set of guidelines for a setting. Think of it as a variation on the Baen Free Library.

Such a site would, I'm sure, give you some idea of possible demand, and help sell the idea to potential publishers. From the posts over at ENWorld I'm sure you'll find people ready and willing to maintain such a site.

Thanks for your time and I hope your projects are going well.

A: This is NOTHING like an RPG version of the Baen Free Library. This is anattempt to defraud an author or authors of income from ancillary rights.

The Baen Free Library consists of e-versions of books which have been inpaperback form for more than two years, and which may or may not still be onthe shelf in bookstores (although, of course, these books can bespecial-ordered). The purpose of this is the book-equivalent of freesamples.

What you propose is to steal my intellectual property, use it to create aform of my intellectual property which has NEVER been in any published form,and destroy any possibility of selling the rights to this intellectualproperty for gaming purposes in the future.

No thank you. I absolutely forbid you to do anything of the sort, and I amforwarding this to my agent so he can ensure that you do not do so.

>>54391260

>uses Detect Alignment in government work
>not a dystopia

Pick one, fascist scum

>>54420947

>teaching people not to be fucking assholes

OH BOY

Did you know that 50 years ago, fucking assholes would actually get you injected with chemicals so that your peepee wouldn't work? And that fucking assholes is still illegal and punished by death in some countries?

Or that 100 years ago, the idea of women voting was preposterous and they could've been imprisoned and "rehabilitated" to not want to vote anymore?

Or that 200 years ago, being from Africa...

Or that 500 years ago, being a Jew...

You see where I'm going with this?

>>54438211
Lackey sounds like a paranoid loon.

>>54438530

To be fair these responses are turn of the millenium. This stuff really was new at the time and no one knew how to handle it. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine a lot of the legal map's been redrawn since then with the blossoming of fan works in general.

>>54438035
Then immigrate to Singapore and get ten to fifteen years in max security prison for spitting on the sidewalk.

>>54438530

>what is protecting copyright

>>54438885
Y-you do realize you're an idiot right?

>>54438330
>being a busybody who gets assblasted over people doing things that don't involve you is the same as being oppressed

Whew

>>54439054
>I.. I.. don't have an argument
>am I cool yet guys?

>>54435537
Isn't it immortal?

>>54439054
>Y-you do realize you're an idiot right?

So no argument, got ya.

Meanwhile, arguments for Singapore being a technocratic hellhole:
- Severly limited personal freedoms
- Legal system at beck and call of government
- Huge population of migrant workers treated like shit am essential part of the country's economy

If you are comtent with not expressing your opinions freely (such as by writing 'I prefer X type of government' on the internet) and live in the upper income bracket then it's probably an okay place.

...so is blue rose worth looking at and if so which edition? Both in terms of game mechanics and subtlety of the writing?

>>54440988
True20 is a better engine than D20 by a country mile.

Whether you like the setting or despise it, the mechanical undercarriage is sound.

(Disclaimer: I have not played the new version, only the original.)

>>54438885

Hey, that's not fair. Singapore is Fine city!

I was so happy to get a shirt with that on it when I visited

>>54441049
>True 20 is better than the D20 by a Country mile

A lot of things are better than d20 anon.

That said I have to wonder what people's definition is between "the D20 system" and simply "a d20 base system". Because some of the OGL stuff is about as tenuous as it comes

>>54438885

Hey, I'm Singaporean! And I can tell you for a fact that no-one gets locked up for spitting on the sidewalk. But if you bring drugs in, you'll hang. That part is entirely true, but I don't have any sympathy for drug traffickers.

>>54440072

> - Huge population of migrant workers treated like shit am essential part of the country's economy

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Migrant workers are grist for the mill, and should know their fucking place as an undercaste.

>>54425245
>they took the brunt of the war while Aldis only joined in at the last moment, claimed victory and called itself a big savior
So Aldis is America?
Everything is now clear

>>54441151

Yeah, my half-brother lived in Singapore for a long time and was a pothead for all of it, often bringing it in when he visited home. I just...I don't get why. You will literally die.

>>54373238
You know, as a frequent browser of /pol/ and probably a borderline nazi, I actually had a lot of fun with this game. I rolled up an effeminate male character from Jarzon who moved to Aldis as a refugee, and basically had crippling insecurities because he didn't see himself as the masculine ideal most Jarzon men strive to be, and had lived a rather hard life as a kid from a poor family. So transitioning from that to this utopian society was a real case of culture shock for him. It was pretty enjoyable contrasting his brutal pragmatism and pessimism against the idealistic citizens of Aldis, and a lot of interesting debates and character development were had. My character gained a more positive attitude towards the customs and worldview of Aldis while his companions native to the country gained a greater respect for what Jarzon had been through and why it was like it was. Overall I'd probably do it again.

>>54441298

Yeah, I think playing the token Jarzoni could be a really interesting experience. I actually started thinking about what I'd want to play if I somehow found someone willing to run Blue Rose, and I ended up thinking of playing a second-generation Jarzoni immigrant musician, if it would fit with the campaign.

>>54440988
Go for first edition.

The first edition trimmed down the 3rd ed. baseline to make something that was streamlined and still had massive room for customizing characters. It was quite good despite some breakage issues at higher levels.

The 2nd edition use Green Ronin's own AGE system as a baseline. You roll 3d6 and compare to a target number. Pretty straight forward, right? Except they took a look at the mess that D&D 3rd. became and thought "You call that bloat? We can do one better!"

Thus, modifiers. Tons of them. And boy do they bloat like a motherfucker. At character creation you can have characters rolling with +9, and that's the first level. Except that will be modified most of the time. Why is a lance is -2 when not used on horseback? Why would I not use a minor action to give myself +1 to melee attacks? Why do I need to keep track of these things instead of having one unified, easy to remember mechanic like D&D did with Advantage/Disadvantage?
Because fuck you, that's why.

Then you get to Hit Points. Which start at 19 for the squishiest of squishy characters. The lowest possible hp fighter will have 29. Armor subtracts from damage, and also from speed. And if you are not trained with it then it also subtracts from dexterity, but the wizard is never gonna use dexterity anyways.
Caster supremacy is what the people want, am I right?

Keep in mind this game is almost a straight copy of D&D 3rd. and you have an idea of what that means in terms of combat lethality. Characters are never gonna die unless the GM hits them with enemies so enormously out of their league its downright unfair.

TL;DR 2nd edition is a clunky shitfest of poorly conceived rules that pile modifiers on top of every roll faster than you can say '3rd edition D&D'

>>54441298
It's a nice setting. You've got some setup nice drama and intrigue, several feuding sides with valid viewpoints, great story hooks for fleshing out characters and why they have a stake in the world etc.

>>54441159
>There is absolutely nothing wrong with this

Except an economy based on migrant workers is highly sensitive to fluctuations in migrant streams, changes in production chains, labor prices and global transnational issues that are extremely hard for any one government to control and predict.

Basically it's building your economy on the weakest possible foundation.

>>54441360
Are you basing this off dragon age or have you actually played blue rose rpg 2e?
If so how is the the writing between the two?

>>54373238
>Is this game worth playing in? Anybody have any play experience?
Tru20 is bad.
AGE is nothing.

So no.
Polite sage.

>>54441594
>Are you basing this off dragon age or have you actually played blue rose rpg 2e?

I have played Dragon Age and read Blue Rose 2e.

>If so how is the the writing between the two?

IMO the Dragon Age writers did a good job of summarizing the world. The DA books I've read are short and on point. I am no expert on Thedas, and I felt I could walk away with a basic understanding of the setting. Some things are left a little vague, though not in an unfinished way. It felt like a stylistic choice to offer more room for GMs to improvise and tweak. My problems with the system are as you've read in >>54441360

Blue Rose is a much bigger book, and in a way that hurts the setting. Descriptions of countries, places and people are often too long and feel padded out. And that's a shame, because there's a meticulously detailed list of locations to work with but surprisingly little to make any one location stand out as interesting.
When it gets down to it, the book offers some good information. The sections on how society works, why it works like that and how you can use it to run adventures are solid.
The greatest disappointment I had in BR was how bland it feels. The chapters on Gods and history are some of the most boring I have read in recent memory. The book goes on about how this is different from regular fantasy, and then presents a system that is build around a murder-hobo style of adventuring. I mean, there is a focus (skill) called 'Traps'. If at least the game had the balls to go full on SJW and let that skill be about spotting and/or passing as transexuals that would have been different (and fitted the setting). But no, it is basic trap disarming, as in 'go down the dungeon and disarm traps and kill monsters'.

cont.

>>54442570
All in all I read the book expecting something more like 'Heralds of Valdemar' or 'Kushiel's Dart' and got Gygax. There are little hints here and there that the game meant to do something different, but in the end it feels like the writers chickend out and ended up emulating Pathfinder and D&D.

Which is sad, because it had so much potential to offer a world of Dumas-esque swashbuckling, ancient magical technology and political intrigue, but ended up being a massive Heartbreaker.

>>54442602

So, are there any games you'd recommend for that sort of gameplay? My go-to fantasy system is usually Mythras, but it's really ill-suited for that sort of thing.

>>54441360
While I agree on the mechanics, 2nd edition refines and expands the setting in ways I found much more appealing.

>>54442620
>So, are there any games you'd recommend for that sort of gameplay?

I have had no luck in finding something I liked.

>>54442823

Dammit. Looks like I might have to use Blue Rose after all.

>>54420902
You aren't brutally forcing your values on them.
>The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness. Over time, this spark grows into a burning fire.

They spend time in prison rehabilitating themselves, realising the evil they have done and that they can and do want to change. You don't scrub them clean of evil impulses or punish them for doing wrong, they just realise that they are a huge dickhead and don't have to be.

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>>54442906
Great, now that I know brainwashing isn't immoral I can go kidnap all the sex slaves I want.
They'll come around eventually.
>The soul reflects on past having freedoms and not being raped and slowly finds within itself a spark of enslavement. Over time, this spark grows into a violent semen inferno.

>>54436080
Except Jarzon isn't run by a bunch of cartels who are dealing with the Lich King for short-term profits and massacring civilians in endless political disputes. They're hardliners who think that they need to hold strongly to their founding values and never budge an inch or they will be destroyed.

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>>54443096
You should know that just substituting words isn't nearly as clever as you think it is, because you miss the whole underpinnings of the argument.

Repentance is the theme, because in D&D Evil is an actual substance that attaches to and corrodes your metaphysical essence (Sanctify the Wicked specifically calls it a 'foul, corrupted soul'). The spell doesn't say, "Suddenly all the past memories and values are changed against the target's will," just like Inspire Courage doesn't say, "The Bard forces you to not be afraid and fight at his command as a mindless servitor." The evil soul is placed in a situation where it has nothing to do but think, and in the process of that thinking consciously rejects Evil. You could argue that putting it in the gem in the first place is a denial of free will, which would be accurate, but the period of explicitly-named penitence is necessary to give the soul the opportunity to reject Evil. In the process of doing so, it becomes a sanctified creature, so let's look at that.

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>>54443435
2/2
>When an evil creature is subjected to a sanctify the wicked spell, it gives up special qualities, attacks, and abilities that are inherently evil in exchange for more benevolent powers. The sanctified creature's appearance does not change to suit its new outlook, nor does it immediately find acceptance among other good creatures. For this reason, many sanctified creatures choose to have their form magically altered so that their good intentions and eager pursuit of repentance are not obscured by their vile appearance.

>Many sanctified creatures feel a burning desire to purge their past evil deeds by performing selfless acts and heroic deeds. They pursue their newfound dedication to good with the zeal of an archon. Some strive to destroy evil where they find it, while others try to persuade other evil creatures to seek similar enlightenment. With their outlook having changed to good, many sanctified creatures feel compelled to take up arms to protect the good and the innocent. Sometimes they join with celestials and good-aligned adventurers to fight evil head-on.

>A sanctified creature that reverts to evil, deliberately or not, loses all benefits of this template. Essentially, it is restored to its state prior to becoming a sanctified creature.

It's not a one-way brainwashing (which, to clarify, is a word that specifically means that it was forced upon you in a situation of duress, not something you came to of your own free will). A sanctified creature has, through their own impetus, decided that they do not want to be Evil, has rejected the Evil that is corrupting their soul, and often but not always feels a need to remove Evil in one way or another. It maintains free will, and is able to return to a state of Evil if it chooses.

>>54441373

>several feuding sides with valid viewpoints

this is a big advantage to any setting

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>>54442602
Kushiel's Dart

Wait isn't that the book where the heroine finds out her birthmark and usual healing powers means she's destiny to be a divinely chosen masochistic sex slave?

Actually Old school DND probably does have that subtext.

>>54443096
Who the fuck wrote this character?

If this thread is still alive when I've done it, I'll post my first-time experience with the character creation for the second edition. Jut to give people a picture of what it's like, and to formulate my own thoughts on it.

>>54446163
Do try. Can't bump myself since my girlfriend's coming over to watch the new GoT episode, but I'll be looking forward to it.

>>54443447
>>54443435
This is utter dogshit.

There is no choice. The spell can be forced on someone, and over a fucking year it mind-whammies you until you're not who you were.

Fuck off. There's no chance of failure. Once in the gem, you're FUCKED. No choice, no will, nothing. If the process could fail, because the person in it said fuck off? Sure, you might have an argument. Because they don't, you're flat out, abjectly wrong.

So fuck. OFF.And stop defending this horseshit.

>>54446558

So, let's make this second-generation Jarzoni-Aldin bard. I'll call her Janet. The first thing for me to do is work out Janet's stats. I can roll for stats, but I've always preferred point buy, so here we go. All Janet's stats start at zero, I have twelve points to spend, and I can't raise a stat above three. Characters can have negative stats, but you can't have stats below zero with point buy. Since Janet's a primarily social character, I definitely want to max out Communication, and I think max Intelligence would be nice as well, so there go half my points. I then put two in Dexterity, since it seems like deft hands would be useful for playing an instrument. I also put two in Perception, which seems useful for a character who travels a lot and finds herself in unfamiliar places often. I've got two stat points left, so I put one in Accuracy to help Janet defend herself on the road and not be quite so useless in a fight, and I put one in Willpower, since I think having positive Willpower fits Janet's personality.

Janet's initial stats:

>Accuracy +1
>Communication +3
>Constitution 0
>Dexterity +2
>Fighting 0
>Intelligence +3
>Perception +2
>Strength 0
>Willpower +1

On to race. Janet's a human, so she gets +1 to any stat. Guess she's starting with four Communication. She also gets a focus (i.e. skill), either Riding or Swimming. The nature of the campaign might lead me to pick Swimming, but since I'm making Janet in a vacuum, Riding makes more sense, especially since it's based on Dexterity and Swimming is based on Constitution. Here speed is 10+Dexterity, so 12 somethings per something. Every race also has a random table, so I now roll 2d6 twice to see what else Janet gets for being a human. I roll a five and a six, getting Janet two more skills: Searching and Persuasion. Nice, I was probably going to take Persuasion anyway,

Next up is Background; basically your characters culture. While Janet was born and raised in Aldis, the neighbourhood she grew up in was mostly Jarzoni immigrants, so she still has the Jarzoni background. This gives me a choice of one out of four skills, Etiquette, Historical Lore, Religious Lore, or Faith. Janet's not an especially religious person, but she's voraciously learned a load of songs, and like to know the context behind them, so I take Historical Lore. She speaks Aldin (which is also the main language of Jarzon) and one other language. The game doesn't actually list the languages of the setting until Talents section about thirty pages later, annoyingly. Taking a look, I decide that Old Aldin is probably the most fitting language for Janet to get from her background, since she probably grew up learning some old songs and prayers from around the time of the Sorceror Kings. There isn't really any good discussion of language in general in the book, which is especially disappointing given how damn big the setting section is in this book (about a hundred and thirty pages).

Janet's stats now look like this:
>Accuracy +1
>Communication +4 (Persuasion)
>Constitution 0
>Dexterity +2 (Riding)
>Fighting 0
>Intelligence +3
>Perception +2
>Strength 0
>Willpower +1

>>54448268

Sorry, I got so distracted by being annoyed about language that I only added half the skills. Janet's stats at this point should be:

>Accuracy +1
>Communication +4 (Persuasion)
>Constitution 0
>Dexterity +2 (Riding)
>Fighting 0
>Intelligence +3 (Historical Lore)
>Perception +2 (Searching)
>Strength 0
>Willpower +1

>>54447706
>literally cannot read

Being sanctified is not a thing that only works one way. A sanctified creature has the free will to choose to return to evil. There is a 100% chance that they will choose not to be evil while in the gem. There is a less than 100% chance they will maintain this stance after they get out.

It's literally a just prison where you aren't allowed to leave until you demonstrate you're rehabilitated and can acknowledge that you did wrong. When you get out, you can immediately turn around and start eating babies again; you are just not able to lie to yourself and say, "Oh, I got brainwashed by Evil," because that was removed from your soul. You also cannot say, "I was brainwashed by Good," BECAUSE IT WAS YOUR OWN FUCKING CHOICE. You reflected on the things that you did, and decided not to be evil. That is the core of the fucking spell.

Ironic that you're so attached to this misunderstanding in a thread about how people are so attached to misunderstandings about Blue Rose that, when presented with the actual words from the book, you refuse to read it and retreat into your own interpretations based on literally nothing but your own paranoia.

>>54448481
Different guy here. That actually sounds exactly like brainwashing. Just because it may not stick doesn't change that you've fundamentally altered a person by insisting they must think a certain way and then doing soul surgery.

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>>54448576
But the person doesn't insist on shit. Read the text, for God's sake.

>Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflects on past evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness.

There's no communication at all from the person who used the gem, or from some other outsider mind-controlling you. It literally puts the evil soul in a time-out, and with nothing but time they realise that they don't want to be Evil. It could not be more explicit that there is NO outside force compelling the creature to change - it is only through rigorous (literal) soul-searching that they come to the realise that they can be Good, and wish to be Good.

Anyone who says it is brainwashing either does not know the spell, or does not know what brainwashing is. It's not brainwashing if you choose to change your own behaviour.

>>54373238
> a social-justice utopia or a fascist dystopia?
What's the difference?

Now, on to classes. Blue Rose has three classes: Adept, Expert, and Warrior. Janet isn't a fighter or a mage, so she's going to be an Expert, Blue Rose's resident skillmonkey class. First I mark the expert's primary stats: Accuracy, Communication, Dexterity, and Willpower. Thankfully, these are all stats that Janet has at least some score in. Experts start with 25 + Constitution + d6 health, 26 for Janet. The weapon groups they're proficient with are Bows, Brawling, Light Blades, and Staves. Oddly enough, Warriors are the only class that don't have to be proficient with Staves. Janet's level 1 class powers are:

Pinpoint Attack: She can do an extra d6 of damage to a target with less Dexterity than her, once per round.

Expert's Armour: Janet is trained with light armour. Not that she owns any.

Starting Talents: Okay, here's where thing get mildly interesting. Experts start with one talent, chosen from the following list: Animal Training, Arcane Potential, Carousing, Contacts, Intrigue, Linguistics, Medicine, Oratory, Perfomance, Scouting, or Thievery. Performance it is.

Talents are equivalent to feats, but they all have three degrees. Whenevery you get a new talent, you can level up a talent you already have instead. Let's take a look at the first degree of Performance:

Oh, wait, I can't take it. Janet doesn't have the Performance or Musical Lore skills. Did I miss where it said I could take skills, or do I just have the two skills I randomly rolled, my racial skill, and my background skill? Because if that's the case, then I think it's impossible to start as a Jarzoni human who can play an instrument. In fact, the only way to get either Performance or Musical Lore as a starting character seems to be to take the Roamer background, or ask your GM if you can take an off-background skill. (Which is at least suggested in a sidebar.) Well, there goes my entire character concept. Let me know if I misread anything.

>>54441217
Because potheads (and I don't mean people who use pot ocasionally) are retarded, like all druggies.

>>54448715
>if I build an AI to do the brainwashing for me, it's not really brainwashing
Look, first of all, unless it's just a fact of the universe that a disembodied soul will automatically purify itself, this alteration was specifically designed with intent. Automation of brainwashing does not cleanse anyones' hands.
Second, I think YOU are the one who doesn't understand. Actual brainwashing absolutely revolves around compelling a person to internalize whatever point of veiw you're trying to implant. There is nothing fundamentally different going on here than with Winston at the end of 1984.

>>54438885
Then don't spit on the sidewalk, dumbass.

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>>54448906
>it's just a fact of the universe that a disembodied soul will automatically purify itself

Glad you agree. Because that's exactly what the spell says. The soul reflects on it's sins, looks for Good inside it, finds some, and nurtures it. The intent of the spell is nothing more or less than a prison, with absolutely no stated contributing factors or agenda. No compulsion of any sort from any force, merely a being left on it's own reaching a decision on it's own, while maintaining the free will to re-examine and change that decision as the see fit in the future. Great talk, hope we've all learned about metaphysics in D&D.

>>54449049
>Great talk, hope we've all learned about metaphysics in D&D.
I wasn't aware souls underwent auto-purification in DnD, regardless of setting.

Also, if that is really a thing in Blue Rose, does that mean the setting lore employs the whole "society makes you evil" meme?

>>54449132

That has nothing to do with Blue Rose. It was an entirely D&D tangent that spun off from a discussion of the Aldin criminal justice system.

>>54449218
Then how the fuck was it relevant to the discussion and why was it even brought up?

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>>54449300
You could try reading the thread instead of jumping halfway into a discussion and trying to muddle your way though.

>>54449345
Maybe I don't give a shit about irrelevant comparisons between metaphysics that are brought up out of the blue for smuggery points.

>>54448853

So let's assume that I convince my GM to let me take Performance instead of one of the normal Jarzoni background skills. In that case, Janet now qualifies for the Performance talent, and can sing, play an instrument, and read and write music. She also gets to use the Jest, Stunned Silence, and Sway the Crowd stunts for one fewer Stunt Points. Stunts are effects that you can add on to the result of a roll if you roll a double. One of the 3d6 you roll is a different colour to the others, and the number on that is how many SP you have to spend on stunts for that roll. Janet's discount stunts let her extend her social roll successes' effects to additional people, make people laugh, and make people briefly unable to speak. Not bad, in my opinion.

So that's our level 1 Janet, and we only had to wrangle one suggested house rule to make her concept function at all. Well, this make me aware of some serious problems with this system. Don't make it hard for your players to build the character they want unless it really doesn't fit the setting. So unless only Roamers teach their children to play music, and no other people from any of the other cultures learn music until after they've started their adult career, something needs to change. Either that, or it's supposed to be a bad idea to make characters at level 1 in this game, which make me wonder why level 1 exists.

Janet the Jarzoni bard:

>Accuracy +1
>Communication +4 (Persuasion, Performance)
>Constitution 0
>Dexterity +2 (Riding)
>Fighting 0
>Intelligence +3
>Perception +2 (Searching)
>Strength 0
>Willpower +1
>Languages: Aldin, Old Aldin
Talents: Performer (Novice)

Next time: Fluff!

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>>54449408
This whole thread is about how people who are smug because they think they've discovered that the secret agenda in Blue Rose are wrong, and they brought up Sanctify the Wicked in an attempt to prove that D&D has similarly corrupt morals.

>>54449434

So, the next step is equipment. Blue Rose tries not to make a big deal about equipment, which translates to "broad categories for weapons and armour, just wing everything else". All I really need to specify are weapons and musical equipment, so I decide that Janet has a Light Blade and some kind of lute. I don't actually know what kind of musical instruments people use in Aldea, but there's always a lute of some description. Hopefully a guitar wouldn't be out of place. Or maybe a banjo. For Janet's sword, I envision it as a basket-hilted broadsword. This only really matters for fluff, but I think it's kind of cool. It does 1d6+1 damage, and uses Accuracy as its combat stat. Since Janet doesn't have a shield, her Defence is just 10 + Dexterity, so 12.

Next up are Janet's Calling, Destiny, and Fate. Destiny and Fate are your character's main positive and negative personality traits, respectively, while Calling is what drives your character in life. Time break out the tarot cards.

I happen to own a couple of tarot decks, so I'll use the random charts here for Janet. Let's see what kind of person she is. First, I draw one of the trumps to determine what kind of Calling she has. I draw the Hermit, so her calling relates to "transmission of knowledge". I decide that Janet's Calling is to learn about the musical traditions of Aldea, and find her and her culture's place within them. Next up, Janet's Destiny and Fate. The Nine and Queen of Swords indicate that Janet is either Compassionate and Petty or Exacting and Despondent. I'll go for the latter. Go go mopey enthnomusicologist!

Janet also starts with two Relationships, one at Intensity 2 and one at Intensity 1. I decide that one of those will be with her mother, and the other with another PC. And there we have her:

>>54443589
It is one of those books that get a lot of praise among fantasy readers, which made me wonder if I had read the same book as the fans had. The concept did have a lot more thought to it than standard fare magical realm, I will grant the author that, but the premise of a world where sexual slavery is a positive thing is hard to shake.

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>>54450078

Janet the mopey Jarzoni ethnomusicologist

>Accuracy +1
>Communication +4 (Persuasion, Performance)
>Constitution 0
>Dexterity +2 (Riding)
>Fighting 0
>Intelligence +3
>Perception +2 (Searching)
>Strength 0
>Willpower +1
>Languages: Aldin, Old Aldin
>Talents: Performer (Novice)
>Calling: Study and understand the musical traditions of the world and my place within them.
>Destiny: Exacting
>Fate: Despondent
>Important equipment: Broadsword (Light Blade), Lute.

Janet was vaguely inspired by pic related.

>>54450145

I learned two very important things making Janet. First, I learned that Blue Rose is really stingy with its skills at character creation. And secondly, I learned that you really need to plan your character multiple levels in advance in order to make sure you meet the prerequisites for the talents and specialisations you want. And given how stingy Blue Rose is with skills that sometimes are those prereqs, it's entirely possible to not only lock yourself out of a concept at character creation, but to come up with a concept that doesn't work RAW despite having no reason, mechanical, setting-driven, or narrative, not to work. I think this game needed some more playtesting.

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>>54450296
Ya done good, kid.

>>54450296
Thank you for taking us through the process Anon. I've only read the rules and there were a lot of details in your character creation that I had missed or not thought of. Especially how restrictive it can be.

>>54450296

Yeah, looks like it could do with an extra 50% stat points and a good few more free-pick skills.

>>54450396

On the subject of that, I would suggest just letting every player pick two skills of their choice at character creation, in addition to the three from their race and one from their background. There are so many skills in Blue Rose that giving two out for free seems perfectly reasonable to me. Especially since you can take skills a second time starting at level 10, so might not even get the full nineteen skill you can get from level-ups.

The thing that baffled me the most in hindsight, though, is that your race is so much more important than you background, when Aldis is supposed to be a cosmopolitan society where anyone can aspire to any social position. It's especially baffling for the vata, since they're sometimes born to human parents.

I'd guess that this is a holdover from Dragon Age, where racial divides are much stronger than Blue Rose.

>>54450573
>The thing that baffled me the most in hindsight, though, is that your race is so much more important than you background, when Aldis is supposed to be a cosmopolitan society where anyone can aspire to any social position. It's especially baffling for the vata, since they're sometimes born to human parents.

This was what bothered me most reading the book, the total disharmony between setting and rules. The AGE system, regardless of how good it might objectivwly be, is not a good fit for Blue Rose.

>>54450896

Which is damn unfortunate, because while I might not being the biggest fan of Aldea as a setting, a ruleset that actually fits the world would also be a great fit for some things I want to run.

>>54450573
That, and it seems assumed that members of a race will by default grow in it culturally (it helps the majority of races in the setting actually are races in the modern sense of the word, being ethno-cultural groups, not different types of beings). You are, however, correct that "[member of race A] who grew among [members of race B]" is such a common trope of the romantic fantasy genre it is a bit weird they wouldn't consider it.

>>54448853
>Starting Talents: Okay, here's where thing get mildly interesting. Experts start with one talent, chosen from the following list: Animal Training, Arcane Potential, Carousing, Contacts, Intrigue, Linguistics, Medicine, Oratory, Perfomance, Scouting, or Thievery. Performance it is.
>Oh, wait, I can't take it. Janet doesn't have the Performance or Musical Lore skills.

So did you, or did not not choose Performance as your Expert talent? Sounds like a self-made problem.

>>54448853

Out of interest: Is expert just 'Rogue' as a class? It looks that way, what with it basically requiring you to go max dex from the start.

How much difference in skills/talents is there between the classes? It feels a bit weird in a setting like Blue Rose to have a 'Skill' class when combat is far from the main focus.

>>54451131

Performance is both a skill AND a talent. You need the skill to get the talent but the skill wasn't available.

>>54451131

I can't take the Performance Talent unless I have the Performance Focus (the AGE name for skills). And Janet had no way of starting with the Performance Focus. I decided to go with a suggested house rule (it's in the sidebar in the Background section), and change my background skill to Performance.

The problem is that the game has a Bard Specialisation (basically sub-classes), so I assumed that it would support playing as a musician.

>>54451156

It seems to be. Adept is "all the magic classes", and Warrior is "all the combat classes", so you'd expect Expert to be "general skillmonkey class". But no, for some reason they decided to bake some Rogue features into it be default. Oh, and every single Expert-exclusive specialisation is combat-based. I think that Blue Rose's design is too conservative. They tried to make a distinctly un-D&D game, but didn't actually break away from D&D-esque mechanics, even when it made no sense not to.

And to think that I started this thread as the one asking for opinions on the game's mechanics.

>>54451276
That's because they were absolutely adamant to adapt the mechanics from Dragon Age, a heavily combat focused game.

Which is even more bizarre given that Green Ronin's OTHER house fantasy system (the Chronicle system that's behind their Game of Thrones RPG) could've probably been quite easily adapted to Blue Rose and fit infinitely better.

>>54451276

Man, they really did just reskin the Dragon Age system. That's disappointing.

The setting feels like it would do better with a system designed to go 'Everyone gets plenty of skills' with a rather minor focus on the actual combat.

Weirdly enough, it seems like something a bit more like L5R (Where everyone can raise all skills and various weapons are skills) would have likely done better for it.

>>54451276
>Adept is "all the magic classes", and Warrior is "all the combat classes", so you'd expect Expert to be "general skillmonkey class". But no, for some reason they decided to bake some Rogue features into it be default.

Dragon Age rules. You can be a fighter, a mage, or a rogue. Blue Rose seems to be trying to turn the rogue class into a skillmonkey, which is always a bad idea. For all it's faults, DA managed to keep it balanced where you could take any role in combat and still have utility outside of combat.

>>54451330

I'm going to need to break out my ASOIAF RPG book and see if I can hack that. Honestly, at this point I'm considering using Reign. And I know barely anything about Reign, other than that it uses ORE and has rules for managing organisations.

>>54451368

I've heard a lot of good things about Reign for that sort of thing.

>>54451352

Yeah, skillmonkey feels like a terrible idea in something like Blue Rose.

>>54451368
Oh, Reign would be ideal. I think people have even tried that hack before. I only mentioned ASoIaF because it's a GR system so it's not even like they realistically can't.

>>54451465

Normally I'd default to Mythras, but it seems too gritty and detail-oriented for the tone Blue Rose is going for.

Have we hit the bump limit? And if so, should I start a new thread? This has actually started to get productive.

>>54451665

Yes, bump limit is 310. mke a new thread if you want.

>>54451882

New thread is up.