What's your opinion on fake Chinese MTG cards? Has anyone

The problem I have with any card game in general is the prices, however being an investment type of deal Chinamen proxy cards circulating have a real good chance of hurting someone who's put real money into the game. I think they're fine for cube but I really don't like the idea of supporting someone else getting burned on value

>>54354500
>Would you dob an opponent in if you suspected they were using fakes?
Only if I was losing

>>54354500

Don't give a fuck, I welcome a change to the "pay to win" mentality of Magic. All those salty neckbeard tears when someone has a 20 dollar deck with the same cards as their 10.000 dollar decks is just hilarious

>>54354500
I'm perfectly fine with them and I hope they keep pumping out the fakes to drive costs down. Players treating this game like an investment has seriously hurt it, not just with the prices but also with the Reserved List.

>>54354781
>>54355021
Yeah I completely agree with this. Would honestly love if the 'problem' of fakes got so bad there was almost no way to discern between the reals and fakes. The only people who get fucked over would be those who can already afford to spend thousands on cards and I've not got any sympathy for them .

Awesome, because you can play with cards that cost 500 dollars for way cheaper. Popular legal Magic is so stupid.

>>54354500
get a salary job and elevate your life anon

that way you can spend buku bucks on your hobbies and dont have to worry about going broke

its not hard, i did it

>>54354500
I mostly play with friends. We generally get our cards for free at our local /tg/ club. If somebody brought chinese or even homeprinted cards I'd be OK with it, as long as everyone else has the same opportunity (and the card can't be easily pinpointed in a hand/deck).

>>54354500
Is a matter of time before Chinamen becomes the nightmare of secondary market.
In three years they have made 5 different print batches with subcategories for the most popular format. Quality is not perfect but the economic success of the fakes mean they have capital to invest in improving.

The logical steps will be just deck checking everyone at every tournament (logistically unreliable), banning the cards that are being copied, (destroying their value) or ignore them until nobody else buy any real reserved card.
All praise our Chinamen overlords and saviors. Fuck saffron olive, star of David games and Mark fucking rosewater

I think the reserved list is horse shit. Thus, I support fakes with the hope they will put pressure on Wizards to print shit so I can play a children's card game with the cards I want to use.

I love Magic. But I don't love Standard. I would appreciate the ability to play Legacy in paper. I hope the Chinese succeed at their counterfeit endeavors one way or another, so I can enjoy this game in the way I want to. With or without "legitimate" cards.

Here's how it'll go
>They'll start printing batches that have more convincing prints in them
>They'll slowly flood the secondary market with those as legit while pawning of the shitty ones to stupid westerners
>At some point, one counterfeiter will start selling the good ones too, in an effort to stab the competition
>Then all of them do it
>Then SCG and consorts lose all interest in Modern, Vintage and Legacy and that's the final nail in Vintage and Legacy's coffin

There'll probably a scandal at some point with some high profile players using counterfeit cards or an outrage with people getting fakes from a big reseller. And that'll be the setup to justify another new eternal format with ""better"" security measures. But that'll be at least another five or six years off.

>>54356652
dream situation

>>54355573
>get a job
Stopped reading

Want them to get even better. WotC's reprint policy is absurd and while not directly pay-to-win, is pay-to-compete and forces out anybody that isn't absurdly rich or living in their parents basement on neetbux. perfect fakes can't come soon enough

>>54358302

As someone who has wanted to try out MtG for a while, this is basically exactly the reason why I've avoided it.

>>54358376
I just came by to say the same thing.
The theory crafting and ddeck building is very interesting but those prices for paper cards would make GW faint.

>>54356652
everyone has already lost interest in legacy and vintage, there is nothing to lose there. If it becomes affordable they will actually become MORE popular because they are actually fun formats compared to the garbage standards wotc has been shitting out

>>54356092
They have already been improving a ton comparing the latest batch to the first the quality has astronomically improved

ITT: Delusional Poorfags
Fakes are obvious as fuck

>>54355573
Here's how I know you are shitposting while still living off of neetbucks:
When you actually get the job you suddenly realize that pieces of cardboard costing $20-$50 is a ridiculous bullshit and you'd rather order those from china for $3 per and put the difference towards savings/paying off the car/etc.
Chinese proxies indistinguishable from real thing flooding the market to the point of bursting is a dream.

>>54358935
This.

>>54358302
>WotC's reprint policy is absurd


stick to yu-gi-oh we don't need massive re-printings on our old products.

mtgo has plenty of old reserve list cards you can play with for cheaper.

I hope Wizards abolishes the reserved list and reprints the power nine until they aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Yeah, it'll never happen, but I just finished selling off my collection, I have no more investment in the damn game and I'd love to see it rot away. I'd just like to see all the scummy secondary market retailers go out of business.

>>54354500
>Maybe it's a good thing for fakes to get better and better as it opens up more expensive formats to people who can't afford to play them,

Or we could petition WotC to stop shoving impoverished minorities out of a lot of formats and most upper tier tourneys like a bunch of racist fucks and either ban everything on the reserve list or rerelease them.

Fuck even printing new cards identical in everything but name would work too, without pissing off the collector fags.

I bought fakes of all the expensive lands to have access to a solid landbase for whatever format I want to play. The rest of my stuff is real. Fetches/shocks/duals being as expensive as they are when they're literally the most basic element of the game is fucking stupid, and wotc should just print the hell out of them if they want people to play their dying formats.

>>54360871
Where did you cop them from?

>>54354500
>Maybe it's a good thing for fakes to get better and better as it opens up more expensive formats to people who can't afford to play them

You can just write black lotus on a piece of paper and play with it at home or with friends nobody will worry, anyone can afford to play this way but some people actually want something with the likeness of an actual card, there is no issue here its when people take the chinaman fakes to a store or a sanctioned event thats a problem

>>54360929
The usual, based chinaman. Funnily enough, they're super nice and have great customer support, so much so that it makes most lgs's look terrible by comparison.

The only thing I don't like about them is when someone unknowingly buys fakes at legitimate prices.

>>54360989
Is it one of those ones where you have to buy sets? Or can you pick whatever singles you like?
>>54361018
This gives me a boner

>>54361018
While I think it's very scummy for people to pass them off as the real thing, if you're dropping money on expensive staples you should at least do some research on how to avoid fakes and or buy a loupe. It's a good thing most of these don't pass if you're familiar with magic at all though.

As someone with an extensive collection of eternal cards and a little bit of power nine, Im fine with fakes getting better, I want people to play legacy against and the current cost barrier prevents me from using any of my real cards as there's noone to play

Just reprint everything like Yugioh.

>>54361133
Yeah , all I wanted was singles and I had no issues.

>>54360871
They don't want you to play dying formats. They'd rather you played Standard.

>>54361707
When you say sets do you mean entire sets/blocks or sets comprised of the most valuable cards in a format?

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>>54360980
>It's cheating if you use Chinamen fakes and no real cards
>Actually defends shelling thousand on cardboard to play a children's game

>use fake cards
>get caught
>get kicked out of an event

>use real cards
>never worry about deck checks
>can cash out whenever you want and recoup most of your cost no matter the deck and format

Why the hell would you want to deal with the stress of prepping to play in a round at a big event and a judge randomly decides to look at your deck? If you're just playing with friends casually I don't see why you'd ever spend money on the cards in the first place, or fakes for that matter. Back when I first started playing casually with friends if we wanted to try out a card we'd just print out a picture in black and white and slip it in a sleeve, hell we'd even just write "Bitterblossom" on a Forest or whatever if we memorized what the card did. Why would you pay for "good quality fakes" for kitchen table Magic?

If you want to risk getting kicked out of an event because of the wrong pieces of cardboard, more power to you. But acting like you can't understand why anyone would ever pay for the real thing is asinine.

>>54361954
Ill give you the benefit of the doubt that you might not be able to read or understand the english language.

Cheating was never mentioned and if you go back and read the statement it proclaims that using fakes anywhere but a non sanctioned event is perfectly fine, make copies of cards, buy chinaman, whatever works for you.

OPs question was about being able to afford to play other formats meaning he wants to play structured wotc formats that are governed by the their rules and regulations I know the concept may be hard for you to grasp so ill try to explain it another way.

Playing structured formats at places that sell their product or at tournaments is not ok to use fake cards

Playing magic (whatever format) in your own home with friends is perfectly fine to use fake cards.

I know words like shill and cuck and autism are the flavor of the month but when someone is explicitly saying that its fine to use fakes thats not quite shilling I belive its quite the opposite but I would have to research the subject further.

Feel free to reply again if I need to explain my point further or in a different way.

>>54362219
>Playing structured formats at places that sell their product or at tournaments is not ok to use fake cards
Why should I care? I went there to play a fucking game. If my opponent loses he cannot blame the fake cards, it was all it's fault. So it doesn't give any unfair advantage.

If the store owner was stupid enough to invest on singles and to only live from MTG sales, it's not my problem if he gets fuck at it's finances, after all he doesn't care either if people can shell thousands on cardboard or not.

This is an economic only problem and neither the game nor any ethics have anything to do with economy. If I can pay 2.5 dollars for the same card that costed you 100$, then my decision and finances were much better. In the same way Nike makes its shoes in China with slavery, to get profit.

So, the only excuse to say that is unfair is either that you feel bad about your own bad economic decitions (which is understandable, but autistic nerds will defend their "investments) or the fear of a store losing money and then closing. Which is the fault of the owner for having such a bad store management that lives only on MTG and decide to invest in worthless cardboard. None of those are valid arguments against the Chinamen fakes

>>54360980
>when people take the chinaman fakes to a store or a sanctioned event thats a problem
maintaining a healthy population for niche formats is a problem now?

>>54362369
>If my opponent loses he cannot blame the fake cards

No, anon, if you get fake copies of super-expensive cards, which you aren't supposed to do, and beat someone else who doesn't have cards as powerful as yours, they can pretty reasonably point to your counterfeit cards as justification that the loss was unfair, because one person literally cheated and the other didn't.

90% of the faggots in this thread should drop magic and go play Force of Will instead.

>>54362369
You use alot of language like "care" and "feel" it sounds like you have some sort of emotional attachment to the game in some way and you still seem to be stuck in the meme stereotype using buzzwords like autism.

You also personalise your reply saying "you" implying that I have some sort of investment in the game myself and that I purchase expensive cards purely for the monetary gain, this is a fasle assumption but it is a good deflection away from the original purpose of my post that I fear has still not been understood.

Its important to remember, nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying you must play magic, in fact it is entirely your choice to play, I too would like a ferarri but I cannot afford one so I drive a mazda, sure I could write "ferarri" on the side and pretend im driving through the south of france with the top down in the privacy of my own home or with friends but its just not the same when im driving downtown in it.

As for investing in worthless cardboard I find it quite ironic that you would be willing to pay real money for fakes and use this argument, by all means spend your money on whatever you want, buy entire sets of fakes and play endless games of magic with your friends you are entitled to enjoy yourself but when thete are no stores left in your area to play in because you are guilty of recieving counterfeit goods perhaps you would look back and think hey maybe I should have taken up another hobby.

>>54361756
Second one

>>54362403
You can still play niche formats without the $1000 cards, just a thought

>>54362673
I will.deviate the conversation to ad hominem because mi arguments are not strong enough

Ok

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I've printed custom cards using some playing card custom printing websites. I won't say which one so I can keep doing it.
I also printed some retemplated 'modern' versions of power 9

>>54362607
Except spending money is not a skill, assmunch. If you both play with proxy cards on something like cocatrice, and you get your shit stomped, guess what? Its because the other person was better/luckier/had a more cohesive deck. Money has nothing to do with losing.

>>54362789
Care to elaborate on what points you feel were invalid? You might need to provide evidence for your claims.

>>54362829
>This guy have never even played the game

Its a collectible card game meaning some cards are more desirable than others hence they are worth more, they shouldnt let people in care homes use the internet

>>54362673
You are the one who is not understanding the discussion
>nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying you must play magic, in fact it is entirely your choice to play

People can choice to play magic with fakes or real cards, if they want to, period. There is something called free market and capitalism. The same way the big SCG and CF use it to sell lilianas at 100, Chinamen use it to sell lilianas at 3. If there are disagreement then remember that Western society choosed capitalism over socialist economic system and now have to compete on it.

>thete are no stores left in your area to play in because you are guilty of recieving counterfeit goods perhaps you would look back and think hey maybe I should have taken up another hobby.

If. A game store depends entirely on MTG. It should have gone bankrupt long ago. God there are like 5 other card games, 10 miniature games, thousand of board games, and that is not counting the tournament fees and the food. This point is absolutely false and a bad argument

>>54360989
>>54358807
>>54362817

Anyone got some links / pointers on where to go to get good fakes? Thinking of making a cube

>>54362934
YouTube

>>54362907
His point is that the skill in the game comes from the way you use cards, not having the cards themselves.
You could technically play MTG in your head if you memorized all the cards, deck, etc and simply spoke it to another player.
I don't know if there's a rule against fakes, but if there is, it has nothing to mechanically do with the game.
It's purpose is clear though since the game needs some level of protection to keep it financially supported.

>>54355573
Beaucoup you philistine

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>>54362934
https://svn2.assembla.com/svn/mtgsalvationpsd/
photoshop templates for making high res

There's an old Modern high res for Magic Set Editor that the creator tried to destroy to stop proxies. I have it on my PC but I don't have a link set up

I toyed with making a M15 high res for Magic Set Editor, but never finished it because I didn't feel like printing a new set. Almost finished it, only need a few more hours on it and it'd be perfect. A few more adjustments and it'd be all set. Honestly, it's probably good enough now to make cards with.

>>54354500
>What's your opinion on fake Chinese MTG cards?
Absolute trash, and the people buying them are trash. At least it's good to know that the fakes are nowhere near as good as people like to claim they are so that they're easy to detect.

Ok, longer answer. Fake cards serve no purpose other than to attempt to scam people with. If you're playing in a sanctioned tournament, using proxies is against the rules. If you're playing casually you can just print the cards yourself and save a lot of money by not paying Chinaman. So, the only reason to buy these cards is because you hope to be able to sell them for far more than you bought them, or to trade them for real cards with some dipshit who doesn't know what he's doing, which makes you a scumbag in the real sense of the word.

>Would you dob an opponent in if you suspected they were using fakes?
Absolutely.

>Maybe it's a good thing for fakes to get better
No.

>>54362926
You choose to play magic

>God there are like 5 other card games, 10 miniature games, thousand of board games

You proved my point and debunked your own reply

>>54360407
>Fuck even printing new cards identical in everything but name would work too
The Reserved List prohibits functional reprints.

>>54362926
>There is something called free market and capitalism
Yes, and clearly you don't understand either. Seriously, are you fourteen?

>>54362945
I understand your point but to clarify he said that cards of value have no impact on the game and winning, quote

>Money has nothing to do with losing

If you had a deck full of commons vs a deck with rares ad mythics you will lose, the cards they want to proxy are power 9 not craw wurm

>>54363031
I carry a loupe to fmn and inspect every card I suspect may be fake, during tournaments I will call a judge and get them to inspect most of my opponents cards if I suspect anything

>>54363128
In that sense the value has impact, but the value of a fake lotus is less than a real lotus, but has no mechanic impact on the game.

Download the high res sets and just print them yourself, you can even do it on window decal paper and make your own foils with an ink jet printer, they are obvous fakes and most people outside of tournaments dont care, people only buy chinaman to pretend they are real and trade or sell them

>>54363277
yeah, no.
I've just got the fucking doubling season from chinese bros and it looks real enough. I'ma put it in my EDH deck to avoid dealing with morons who don't like people using proxies.
Cost of the card: $30
Cost of chinabros version: $3
Cost of proxying it myself: don't care, it'll be more than $3 in time spent and the quality won't be as good.

I hope chinabros will thrive and expand their business.

>>54363169
"shit that never actually happened" by anon, volume 1

>>54363031
continue to delude yourself on proxies not being as good as the real thing. They are very close, you need a magnifying glass and a real card side by side to tell the difference.

>>54363854
>EDH
Into the trash, stop posting

>>54363892
sure thing sweetie, have your (you)

>>54363854
>They are very close, you need a magnifying glass and a real card side by side to tell the difference.
You literally don't because most of them have very basic issues in regards to the font, coloring and border size, not to mention the finish and feel of the card. You only need a loupe to confirm 100% without a doubt it's a fake. Keep trying to delude yourself that your shitty china fakes are passable though china bro, anyone who's actually been around magic cards for a while can easily tell the difference.

>>54363854
Why dont you use proxies of commons and other easy to get cards? The answer is you can afford them, im sorry that your parents said you were special and that you expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, please stop trying to play a hobby you cant afford and find something else to do and stop shitting up other peoples enjoyment

its literally hilarious that some grown adults care what cards other ppl use lmao

>>54363854
Why the hell would you pay for chinaman proxies for your edh deck when you could just write Gaea's Cradle on a slip of paper and stick it in a sleeve for free?

>>54364501
because I can get the actual cards of commons for cheaper than proxies? Are you literally so retarded that you need an answer to that question? Well, looking at you sperging out trying to convince me that not wanting to spend hundreds of dollars on cardboard is somehow "expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter" the answer is obviously yes.

>>54364559
because $3 gives me a pretty picture and a spelled out rules text. Yeah, it's a waste of money in a way but $3 seemed a reasonable enough price. Also because some people start lecturing me that I 'should just spend $30' on a piece of cardboard when they see pieces of paper -- see the retard above.

Here's the fact you braindead trash:
from your standpoint, for you personally there should be literally no difference as to where another guy got his cards if they are not selling or trading them. The rage you feel is the rage of an idiot who knows deep inside that he was duped into buying inherently worthless shit for real money when he could've bought similar worthless shit for far less money.

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>>54364843

I hope the people who buy chinaman fakes have kids who get cancer and they buy a cheap china knockoff medication and it doesnt work so their kids die a horrible painful death, that would still be less tragic than the cumguzzling chucklefucks in this thread

>>54364880
Lol, what a retarded analogue. Better one would be where you could buy essentially exactly same medicine, that works the same way and is spewed out from same machine, but the label is worse, but price thousandth of the original.

It's funny how people regard pieces of paper coming out of printer as "collectible items" when there is literally no pain or effort to print million of copies. Not to mention that these same fuckers waste hefty sums of money for literally no gain.

>>54365155
>retarded
edgy

>>54363051
No shit Sherlock. You'll notice how I mentioned getting rid of or changing the reserve list.

>>54365155
They're called generics, heroes like Martin Shkreli are trying to get them stopped

>>54362088
>use real cards
>still get accused of using fakes
>people try to steal your cards
>people try to rip your cards to prove that it is fake
>every second they're not locked in an environmentally controlled box is a second they risk damage.

Yeah no. I'll use chinamen for actually playing.

>>54365780
I wish they were a bit more convincing. I wouldn't hesitate a second to go into bigger tournament with fake cards. Even if you are caught, what of it? You can always play the innocent and nobody can prove you wrong.

>>54363031
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEE it's against the rules

just kys

>>54354500
i think they are completely fine. no one should have to spend thousands of dollars on cardboard to play a childrens games. fakes are only going to get better and better until the point where people cant tell the real. shit most people cant tell the difference now between real and fake old cards because 97% of the player base has never seen them in person

id rather have people to play legacy with than not so im fine with it

>>54354500
If you feel rage because people is playing a kid's game with cards of 3 dollars, you need some therapy before it becomes psychosomatic

>>54366536
We all know you are just a poorfag trying to get into the format. 5000$ for a deck is not that much, get out of your mom's basement.

Love it, hope the fakes get even better.

>>54366624
3/10

Bait is a bit too salty, and the gravy drowns out the other flavors.

>>54356207
You can already do that fuckface, If you want to play legacy with friends, just print out the cards yourself. But, if you want to play in tourneys, you need wizards products. GW does the same shit for their competitive scene, and so does fantasy flight. I know this is bait but i'm actually a little rustled.

>>54358935
>>54360149
Considering I've sold close to $5000 in fakes (as real) it only takes a retard to get a sale. And if your "caught" you plea Ignorance. Literally no cosequences.

Poorfags are the fucking worst. "Im entitled to play whatever I want because im special" *smokes weed* "I also have no money cause i dropped out of high school to pursue my career at McDonalds"

>>54367669
To be fair, you probably sell to kids like a true scumbag. Get caught selling to to the wrong person and tell me about consequences after he takes you outside.

>>54367700
>takes you outside

Oh god, my fuckin sides. you're a riot anon.

>>54367700
>Get caught selling to to the wrong person and tell me about consequences after he takes you outside
lol

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>>54367700

Vintage, Legacy and EDH are the best MtG formats. Everything else is too saturated with the same deck and not worth playing, for you will face the same decks over and over again. We would all love if MtG became a living card game, many of people living off it would not but fuck them. Chinese fakes for the win!

>>54367771
>>54367772
Alright guys, i know that sounds funny but my lgs has alot of gym bros and college kids. Only a few neckbeards go there. Its plausible here

>>54367603
Obviously I want to play competitive, silly.

I could afford to drop $3000 on a Legacy deck if I truly wanted, but it doesn't seem like a good idea, especially since many others can't. I want Legacy to be affordable for everyone, so I could reasonably expect there to be Legacy events at more LGSs.

>>54366348
What's stopping a conspiracy to ruin a stores reputation by buying from a store and also buying fakes, getting caught and saying you bought it from X store using the receipt as evidence?

>>54367832
>gym rats and college kids
I'm still laughing.

I'm all for fake cards, given how terrible of a company Wizards is, I don't feel the least bit complied to pay 200$ for a modern manabase.
I personally don't use them though, they still don't look good enough to pass even at FNM.

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>>54368090
>they still don't look good enough to pass even at FNM
fakes have been used in FNM since like last year. get with the times old man, nobody actually check opponent cards. less so if they are sleeved

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>>54367603
>But, if you want to play in tourneys, you need wizards products.
+1 usd added to your Star of David Games account

>>54358166

You stopped reading at "Get a".

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>>54367832

>well officer this guy assaulted me while i was walking down the street here
>said he was going to kill me
>I was in fear for my life when i pulled my CCW and killed him.

No the best thing to do would be to call the police and get name, address and a record of what happened and then A. convince him to give money back or face legal actions or B. sue his ass and get money back.

if your first thought is "Nikkuka ima beat yo ass down!" then you deserve whatever stupid prize you win for playing your stupid game.

What's stopping us from buying counterfeits,
selling them to starcitygames or other wotc endorsed vendors, making a profit and also watching them sell those cards back to the public for a scandal?

i'm not talking about P9 where they would need to be formally inspected, but like any type of card that is high in demand and supply like fetches or whatever.

>>54369185
>Buy Fakes
>Then Buy Fetches to SCG
>Make mediatic scandal in all the social networks about you getting fakes from SCG.
>Ask for getting your money back AND a real playset
>Spread the fear of the mtg counterfeits
>Get your money back and 2 playsets of the fetches

>>54362829
>spending money is not a skill

Firstly, that's wrong, both technically and in spirit. I've known players that were extremely good at playing the card market, and could always get their hands on cooler cards than other people. It wasn't because they always put in more money than others, but because they paid attention to price shifts and speculated. That was absolutely a skill that they had to study and develop. Also, skill outside of the game can be used to acquire more money to spend on the game, so thanks for outing yourself as a neet.

Also, we're clearly not talking about online play here. I'd like to say that playing Magic through Xmage or Trice is fine if you're a poorfag, but MTGO is such garbage that I honestly can't blame you if you'd rather use something else.

I'm not sure if everyone in this thread seriously buys the "piracy is a victimless crime" meme, or if they're just so self-centered and entitled that they're okay with hurting the system that allows the game to continue to be made and supported because they don't want to work to have nice things.

>>54362945
Speculating and playing the market is as much of a skill, and as important of one, as piloting the cards desu

>>54370060
If buying fakes killed the game, then I would buy more.
MTG should have died at 4 edition and all people who still like this game the way it is should be dead. Buying fakes make them fire Maro? I will buy more. Will Sam fatstoddard be unemployed thanks to Chinamen fakes? I'm all in. Kill MTG already. Will whoever brought up the gatewatch lose its job for me buying forgeries to play a children's game? Great

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So is there a really good gameplay reason for people to want cards to be expensive? Or is it just people who've already spent a bunch of money and don't want to lose on their investment. In terms of quality of the game I feel like the more accessible it is to obtain all the tools the better.

>>54370380
>Or is it just people who've already spent a bunch of money and don't want to lose on their investment.
It's this. Have you seen the people that get salty about reprints? "rip my value" and shit. It happened quite a bit with the last Modern Masters spoilers.

>>54363128

>If you had a deck full of commons vs a deck with rares ad mythics you will lose, the cards they want to proxy are power 9 not craw wurm

I will take pauper delver decks vs any amonkhet block costructed deck.

>>54365747
>Martin Shkreli

He will be the first one to go, next to Cuckberg when the revolution finally happens comrade.

>>54366624
Here's your (you)

I don't care if people use them but I personally would not. i have to test all the cards i buy and that I trade. i only play EDH and I have a vintage cube (no power)
it's a pain in the neck to explain why I need to look at trades so close. it makes people squirmy and they may have a fake and not know it.

I was in the market for a show and tell and saw one in a shop. it looked too good since the store doesn't have regular legacy players and it was mint condition. I didn't have time to check it properly so I just didn't buy it.i had a funny feeling about it but that's just life with fakes in the market.
if a fake makes it in to my collection I loose credibility with my trading peeps and it's harder than ever to get new guys to trust me to do high value trades.

>>54372641
go away commie, no one wants your flawed system

>>54354500

My opinion: as long as you don't trade/sell them, passing them off as real, you're in the good. Just playing with them is okay, even playing with them in a tournament because it's not like fucking WotC is printing these fucking things anymore. You get your tools where you can. WotC has effectively handed that entire market to the Chinese with the Reserved List, so it's not your fault.

I haven't bought them myself because ironically even the chinaman versions of these cards are too pricey for my blood. I'd mainly be interested in toying around with them in my cube.

>>54375174
That's how I feel. Wizards could print any card for $3 if they wanted and they would never deal with a counterfeit again. It's their ball, they would rather let people hold on to their money and hand the Chinese their paychecks.

>>54361632
Why does Wizards support a small group of players that help them make money in no way? What would happen if Wizards lost all of their Legacy players? Everyone I know that plays Legacy barely plays the game any other way. What would happen to the company if they a) got rid of the restricted list or b) said they would never support an event with restricted cards again?

>>54370060
When my stock portfolio goes up I don't claim to be a good MTG player

>>54370199
>all people who still like this game the way it is should be dead
>A good part of 6 million people should die because they like playing a children's card game

You guys are doing the work for me here.

>>54375697
Good for you. Not relevant, and not an argument.

Plot twist:
Chinaman cards don't hurt wizards at all. It hurts secondary market sites, which wizards only profits from with event publicity.
Wizards IS the Chinaman. Fakes are a campaign against star of David games to finally get them to liquidate their inventory, and then, when the biggest opponent is out, they'll abolish the reserved list and ride in to save gaming on a gleaming pegasus

>>54375920
Exclusivity and expensiveness are drivers of popularity.
Black Lotus wouldn't be famous if it didn't cost thousands

>>54370380
>>54372574
It's pretty much that argument.

Getting into any format (excluding pauper and 'casual' variants) is a $100 plus investment.

You kind of argue with yourself about whether dropping 20 dollars for a card is worth the investment until you realise it's price is that for a reason. When you finally assemble all the pieces for the deck you want it takes your average person a lot of time and money to get there.To only find out that a reprint is imminent and plummets the entry value to your deck is kind of upsetting. It would be to any investment if you found out it was going to be cheaper tomorrow. Then there's also Bannings which just out right tank your cards value (see Emrakul, Promised End, splinter twin, etc.)

It's bullshit that cards just cost so much and supply is a controlled limited resource. This probably stems from archaic traditions about a 'TRADING card game' evolving into a 'competitive card game'. The reserved list wouldn't be a thing if this was about the competitive scene from the beginning.

As for why I think there's a gameplay reason for why cards are so expensive. I think it just helps breathes diversity into formats if not everyone is going to play the assumed 'predominant strategy'. Cheaper decks try their luck and they might get lucky and shift focus away from top tier money decks. I mean, that's probably BS as well, but i'm still struggling to justify cardboard costing this much.

>>54376410
There is no justifying it anon. MtG could be a LCG and still do just fine.

Fuck I might actually buy from WotC if that was the case instead of just buying chinamen or making my own.

>>54355573
Rich people don't remain rich by spending much more than necessary on frivolities.
Starcity is now asking $500 for white bordered Underground Sea.
I got my whole playgroup FBB Underground Seas for $1.49 each thanks to China.

>>54362088
I've had a fake Cavern of Souls in my Merfolk deck since 2015 and played at least 4 GPs, a shitload of LGS leagues and even a SCG Open. I've been deck checked no less than a dozen times and nobody cares.

You assume judges have time to inspect card for card toroughly, they just lay the deck flat on a table to match with your decklist. And I wouldn't even be surprised if some judges that have come across fakes let it slid because they are players too.

My UG Infect has 24 chinese counterfeits and nobody has ever noticed it
I think it is fine as long as you don't sell it pretending they are real

>>54375920
>Wizards IS the Chinaman. Fakes are a campaign against star of David games to finally get them to liquidate their inventory, and then, when the biggest opponent is out, they'll abolish the reserved list and ride in to save gaming on a gleaming pegasus
SCG is the strongest proponent for the ABOLISHMENT of the resserved list. They want to sell bigmacs not 4michellin sirloin and every time they need to re-stock on duals they lose money.

MaRo also wants that shit gone, if only because he loves Thunder Spirit and is physically hurt he can't reprint it every year.

>>54370199
>Buying fakes make them fire Maro? I will buy more. Will Sam fatstoddard be unemployed thanks to Chinamen fakes? I'm all in.

fucking lol

>>54377031

chinaman noble heirarchs are indistinguishable from real ones. I saw some fake inkmoth nexus and it looked a little dark but it could've been a bad batch

>>54377129
>chinaman noble heirarchs are indistinguishable from real ones
They aren't but keep telling yourself that. You can have them barely pass if you double sleeve.

t. Owns playsets of both

>>54375174
>>54375354
This. I have a playset-plus of chinaman duals for legacy and commander. It helps that my store's legacy events are proxy-friendly, but double sleeved across the table most people won't know or care.

Modern I still buy real cards, in large part because the store is chill and I don't mind giving them money because it feeds right back to us. I wouldn't give SCG that shit though.

>>54363854
>They are very close
No they're not, Mr. Chinaman.

>>54366440
Get a job.

>>54364771
>some people start lecturing me that I 'should just spend $30' on a piece of cardboard when they see pieces of paper -- see the retard above.
All of them told you to do exactly that though rather than pay Chinaman for shit quality fakes.

>>54367845
B-but anon, you can't. It's AGAINST THE RULES, how can you not understand that!

>>54367845
>but it doesn't seem like a good idea
Then you don't value being able to play competitively higher than the market does. Do something you find worthwhile with your money instead.

stop giving your fucking money to these radical leftist SJWs.

>>54379215
This. I can keep playing modern and legacy with my playgroup and our chinamans regardless of what wotc does with their shitty standard and supplemental sets and forced trannies. We'll continue to shit up every GP with in a couple hundred miles with all indistinguishable chinaman decks while starcity games pleads that we consider buying their ceo another yacht with tabernacle money. Fuck wotc, fuck the secondary market, and fuck maro.

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Most of this discussion has been "should they or shouldn't they," but can we talk about "what if?"

What if the CEO of Hasbro said "Talked to our lawyers and we're good. Print a Masters set of all Reserved cards. I want the announcement to come out soon and be sold by Summer 2018." What would be the impact for players, Wizards, and 3rd party sellers?

>>54379215
if anything the chinamen are the radical ones
wizards are greedy capitalists

>>54369236
A B S O L U T E L Y D E V I L I S H

>>54380936
The master sets would get horded by scalpers and the cost of the reprints would e slightly lower than the originals. Demand, however, would surge.

I'd still buy chinamen because nothing would really change.

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>>54376410
>I think it just helps breathes diversity into formats if not everyone is going to play the assumed 'predominant strategy'.
This is bullshit. and if you unironically belive it and is not a shitty argument to defend "muh investments" then you are a retard
look all the DSJ, Copycat, marvel decks that were. why? they win and that's what matters.

>>54377181
>Things that never happened
Ok

>>54380936
>Sell Duals as masterpieces
>The price for each booster is 100$
>We don't want newer players to belive those are standard boosters.!!!!

I used to work with a guy, he did the printing and I did the pseudo marketing. We went by Stoneman. I used to post here for a bit actually before real work got in the way. Quality gets better and better. Gloss is and always will be an issue until we work something out, which likely won't happen. Still looks near identical in a sleeve, twice as good double sleeved. I still use mine

>>54380936
Pretty much this>>54384333

The boxes, much like alpha and beta, are worth so much more sealed and protected as a "future investment" than they ever could be cracking the packs. Stores will hoard them worse than commander's arsenal and FTV20.

See also the first modern masters. Demand skyrockets, supply basically is unchanged. Prices go through the roof.

>>54386990
Which is why I buy chinaman, print my own, or use cockatrice.

Redditors already playing on ig events
>>https://www.reddit.com/r/bootlegmtg/comments/6nu8zb/scg_cinn_test_complete/

>>54354500
They are a pure expression of core economic principles.

Wizards has a monopoly on production of Magic cards, they refuse to adequately meet demand for various reasons, so a new industry offering fake but cheap versions crops up.

If wizard's didn't want fake cards to be a thing, maybe they shouldn't make Tarmogoyf be ~100 dollars.

>all these players mad that other people are able to play the same game as they are without spending hundreds of dollars
Keep 'em cucked, WotC!

I don't care if the person I'm playing against is using fakes. I think fakes can be bad for the game though because people will try to trade or sell them as real and con trusting or unsuspecting victims. That's a problem that needs addressing far more than "I can't afford real cards to play in this GP".

>>54391325
this

I kinda care if my opponent uses fakes if I notice. If they look realistic and I can't notice, then I don't care and probably wouldn't even know in the first place.

Try to trade them? That's when there's a problem.

>>54391447
>If they look realistic
They don't though. Chinaman likes to come here to claim that they do so he can sell more of them to shitheads.

>>54391553
A few do. The ones I helped shill were pretty good too.

>>54375354
I'm not sure I want WotC to start selling individual cards themself. It will obviously drastically reduce entry level cost for any constructed format so that's cool, but you will be playing against the same 3 decks every time and the power level will get absurd. I don't want to play against a full playset of Snapcaster Mage or Death's Shadow every single match.

>>54391945
Have you looked at the top echelon of competitive play? There's definitely diversity despite money being no issue. People are still going to sleeve up their pet deck if the barrier to entry was non-existent. I don't think the diversity of the field in any format would worsen because more people are playing. If anything, the formats would become more diverse because people could afford to run jank without losing serious amounts of money.

>>54391937
>A few do.
No. Even the ones people claim are "good fakes" are easy too see through for a trained eye, and if the colors and fonts magically wouldn't be shit on them, the quality of the paper is a dead giveaway.

>>54392299
I've play at a highly competitive level for Modern and Legacy with fakes and no one has noticed at all. I've used these same ones for years. You've probably seen shit ones. Like I said, I worked with the guy and explained exactly what needed to be changed on the cards to make them look as good as possible.

>>54392032
This is correct. It was valid as an explanation early in the game's life, where there was no competitive scene and you truly were limited to the cards your friends opened in packs. But Wizards using the same argument today is laughable. And it's even sillier when you realize that they're designing the game. If they're saying that they designed the game so that rarity and price is what determines the archetypes, perhaps they shouldn't design the game that way?

>>54391553
Those look good : https://youtu.be/8QEmEbFRpJY

>>54391553
I am more inclined to believe there are significantly more of you people who have some sort of idiotic attachment to the money you've spent on real cards and put retaining the value of your investment over and above people being able to play this game. It pains me that you people resist and refuse to acknowledge Wizards is doing NOTHING to support any format that isn't Standard.

I don't understand why the fuck you people feel that way. You own the cards, you can play with them; who cares what they're worth. If you bought into this thing assuming you can re-sell your cards after you get bored, then you have the worst fucking mentality in the world.

For the most part the cards are impossible to tell across the table that they're fake. And they're enabling people to play the game, or at least they would be if it wasn't for you shitheads who condemn them. It's not like Wizards is making this game cheaper to play.

I'll shill for the Chinaman for free.

>>54392697
>this is what communists actually believe

>>54392788
Our road systems, environmental protection, and emergency services are pure socialism.

You can take your generalizations and go fuck yourself.

>>54354721
if you use cards for a childrens card game as a legit investment so do you deserve to get burned.

>>54392807
>are pure socialism.
>socialism
>an economic system where the means of production are publicly owned
Try again.

>>54385721
Not an argument. The cards aren't "indistinguishable" to anybody that's been around magic cards for more than a month. That's why you need to double sleeve you retard.

>>54362673
Yeah, but in this case the chinks are selling Ferraris for the price of Ladas, if all you care about is going fast and not showing off.

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You have a choice

You can pay $5000 for cards to play your favourite format in your favourite game

or

You can buy a poor college student a car. (Or ten poor college students a cheap car, since I've seen functional cars sold for $500)

. . .

Ethics do not support the genuine cards ponzi scheme.

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>>54362673

You know, a person actually does more harm to Magic's continued existence by finding another hobby than by using China cards. In either case, WotC does not get any money from them, but in the latter case WotC still gets the free advertising and the larger playerbase to entice new players to join.

>>54394878
>You can pay $5000
Not even Legacy costs that much you fucking idiot. Better not spend money on anything since you can use it to help less fortunate people right?

>>54395087
>Not even Legacy costs that much you fucking idiot.

Theoretically, one can play Vintage.

>All the people who wants to believe Chinamen fakes are bad.
They just needed to do Right the fetches, and they did. The rest of the shit you can get it exchanging fake fetches for the real deal

>>54392842

Roads are a means of production, and they are publically owned. Emergency services produce health and safety, and they are publically owned.

Outsider here. The fact they wont print cards with new art or borders or something seems really bizarre. Why don't they just make it like comics? I can read Action Comics 1 without paying a million dollars.

>>54378985
Having the deck doesn't mean I could necessarily play, because other players have to be able to afford decks too. That's why I'm hoping that the reserved list gets abolished for one reason or another.

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>>54396080

The simple answer, my outsider friend, is that they promised not to.

Back in the early days of Magic, WotC had no policy on this and reprinted some popular cards. The collectors got assblasted, and WotC overreacted: they promised that those cards will never, ever be printed again, and further promised that a portion of each subsequent set will also never be reprinted again. They stopped doing the latter, but as for the cards already on the so-called Reserved List, WotC is standing by their promise. They have made clear that neither reprints, nor functional reprints (very similar cards, different in name only) of the Reserved cards will ever be done.

Of course, it gets more complicated than that, as WotC maintains a scarcity of certain non-reserved cards for their own inscutible reasons, probably as a "keep your powder dry" measure: they can reprint Modern staples at any time, but are saving them for when they need to make a big impact or raise a bundle of cash fast.

>>54396080
Because early on in the game's lifespan they made the mistake of overprinting a set full of reprints of at the time expensive cards. This caused an uproar in the player base, especially among those interested in collecting and owning rare cards, who claimed that there was no point in buying cards at all if they would all become worthless one or two years down the line. Wizards' response was to create a list of cards they promised would never ever be reprinted to reassure players and collectors that their cards wouldn't lose value.

Of course, it has since been proven that it doesn't really hurt the value of the rarer old printings if the cards are reprinted, but Wizards has made a promise and their sticking to it despite it now being an extremely unpopular one. They also refuse to go into details about why they won't get rid of the list, and won't mention details about why they won't go into details, and instead only say they could get into legal trouble if they did. Some people believe this to be due to some of the bigger vendors of the game having a vested interest in keeping the Reserved List alive and are threatening to sue WotC over lost profits if they do. WotC meanwhile has calculated that the court costs, no matter how easy the cases would be to win, would be higher than the profits gained from reprinting sought after cards.

>>54396080
They're no longer in the business of doing what is best for the game, which ensures that constant improvements maintains a customer for life.

They're only in the business of making sure that they can churn through "average" players who have traditionally only play the game for about 4 years before quitting; therefore there is no incentive to change anything but rehash the same traditional formula every couple years to a fresh unknowing audience.

>>54396205
Well, if Wizards actually printed a Standard legal set full of expensive cards - like, most of the commons and every single uncommon being worth at least $1 expensive - that would really just result in vendors refusing to sell the packs at MSRP to either sit on them as the value increases further or crack the packs and sell the cards at market value.

>>54396205
>>54396256
Thanks anon! So if Wizards could go back in time, they wouldn't have made the Reserved List? That seems to make more sense that a small start-up fucked up than a huge company promising to never make a certain product again.

>>54396352

That's the other thing: as far as WotC is concerned, the vendors can do whatever they want. WotC's job is to sell the boxes to the vendors, and as long as the vendors keep buying them, what happens afterwards is nobody's business. If the situation happened as you described, WotC would be fine with it: that just means they can do it again later. The powder is still dry.

>>54396422
They would probably try to find a better solution. Like, if rather than making the list indefinite they had said we promise to never reprint these cards again for ten years, that would probably have worked out much better.

>>54396465
Believe it or not, WotC actually wants people to be able to play their game, which is why they won't do it. It would kill off both them and the vendors long term if they did something like that, which is why they try to make the expected value of cards in each box more or less the same as the MSRP of said box. That way vendors still buy boxes and are able to sell both sealed products and singles at a reasonable profit.

>>54396560

Yes, of course. As the people who make the cards, however, it is 100% within WotC's power to set the price of any card as low as they want to. For example, if they print a Super Valuable Superset and the vendors value the cards more than the boxes, then WotC can make Super Valuable Superset 2, or another print run of Super Valuable Superset, ad nauseum or until the MSRP of the box equals the market value of the cards. Card value is a function of utility and rarity (with occasional coolness value on top), so if WotC wanted to make a packful of Goyfs cost $4, they can.

>>54396638
Vendors wouldn't sell the cards though. It's questionable if they would even buy the boxes if they feared the value of the product would tank.

>>54396654

You act as if vendors present some unified front. They compete with each other more than with anything else. A vendor that refuses to stock the Super Valuable Superset will quickly get eaten by another that will.

>>54396256
>there is no point in owning cards that become worthless within onne or two years

Yet standard is still a thing, ironic. :^)

>>54396700
Except that has proven to not be the case with other card games that did overprint previously expensive cards, such as Force of Will. The value tanked so vendors stopped buying them.

>>54396744

You can buy boxes on Amazon, anon. Also Wal-Mart. You're making it out to be a much bigger deal than it is.

>>54396805
I feel like the card shop is important to Wizards because so many friendless NEETs only play there. Haven't been to FNM ever, only know what I see buying comics.

>>54397102
WotC for a bit has been acting and talking as though the LGS only accounts for a minuscule portion of the actual playerbase. If their numbers are correct and the LGS infrastructure disappeared overnight their most pressing concern would just be finding new ways to distribute the product. The actual market wouldn't contract at all.

>>54378985
>muh market forces

We're aware how capitalism works but stop shilling for the reserved list. Unless your a vendor you gain nothing by its existence.

>>54397472
How did you manage to read that as a defense of the RL?

>>54397190
It would be interesting if they took the Pokemon approach to their card game.

Release storage tins that come with in demand singles (new art that looks worse to keep collectors happy) and Duel Decks that help support the non-rotating format. Plus, every product can be redeemed to use online for free.

>>54397190
I agree Wizards doesn't seem to care about games stores.

The LGS model is going to fall apart sometime in the next decade thanks mostly to Amazon. When that happens, I wonder what the fuck Wizards is going to do as their entire sanctioned structure (prereleases and FNM) falls apart; can't have a competitive scene if you expect only kitchen-table players to attend your event.

I was reading the Wizards wikipedia article and it said that 10 years ago the company numbered 300 people. That is a ridiculously small number of people divided between all its games. Let's just say the company has grown and all 300 are dedicated to Magic. That's a pathetic number of people managing a paper and online game.

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>>54396744
>>>>Except that has proven to not be the case with other card games that did overprint previously expensive cards

>Yu gi oh kills secondary market on purpouse
>Yu gi oh Outsells mtg in sealed product
>Sealed product money goes directly to konami, while singles are sucked to stores
>That means that literally Konami gets direct sales for themselves than MTG because PLAYERS buy their PRODUCT and don't need to sell a kidney to play their game
>That somehow justifies the fact that overprinting is bad for the company

Literally what?

>>54397886
I would love to see how much money each TCG make makes their respective owner. How much does the Pokemon TCG make the Pokemon Company? Because if they bring in more than Wizards does, along with offering lower priced decks and a completely free online component, that's pretty sad. I get Pokemon as a franchise is larger than MtG, but still rubs me the wrong way that the Pokemon model is how MtG could have been.

>>54399560
You can't apply the Pokemon model to Magic ever.

Think about all the money Magic wastes marketing this game everywhere. They need community people, video games, booths at conventions, the list is enormous.

Pokemon needs none of that because all the video games do all their marketing for them. The same applies to Yu Gi Oh. There is no Magic movie/TV show. And god willing there never will be.

Wizards needs to unfuck itself but it cannot look at the other models because they're not applicable.

>>54399560
>>54399730
when i first read these i thought
"but doesnt WOTC make the pokemon cards?"
apparently i didnt get the memo they stopped doing that in 2003
what happened to make them stop?

If you people ever needed to know why the game is so fucking expensive and nobody seems to care look here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/6o3hkr/having_trouble_following_the_latest_mtg_news/

A ton of problems. None of them addressing the price of this game. Fucking bitching about cardboard quality and fucking promos; not about the fact that the top Standard decks cost $300 a pop. What child has that sort of money laying around?

>>54399730
Actually, I have seen commercials on television for the Pokémon TCG specifically.

I've yet to see one for YGO though.

>>54399872
>What child has that sort of money laying around?
Kids don't really play constructed. At least not from my experience. I have played against one kid at a pretty big Modern tournament but that's the only exception.

I just played kitchen table and limited when I was young.

>>54399730
>Impliying gatewatch shitters would not see a MTG anime

>>54399872
Standard seems reasonably priced right now to me.

>>54400000
I understand that kids don't play Constructed, but is that the world we want to strive for, a scene that is only for 18+ year olds?

I feel like that without a welcoming environment for kids then this game has no future. I agree that generally speaking they have no incentive to play Constructed or show up to FNM but they do come for pre-releases and the issue there is that cancerous competitive crowd also shows up for pre-releases and I've seen those people basically turn those kids off the game forever.

Those kids just want to play and they are met with a wall of rules-lawyering assholes who need to win every fucking pack because there is a ridiculous incentive to open good cards. The game has to become cheaper JUST to completely annihilate the talk of cards being worth $20+ a piece; it is the most demoralizing shit for anybody to hear.

Right now the game preys on idiots who won't withhold their money. But what happens if there comes an even more accessible game that has even more crack-inducing qualities than Magic. What if that game already exists - Hearthstone; you don't have to deal with idiots to get your game and MTGO is a broken piece of shit.

Magic is quickly becoming the porn magazine of the world competing against options that let people do their thing at home or on their phone. And the going might be good now, but it's not sustainable.

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Why don't any of you losers post china and regular versions of cards side by side to show how similar or not they are?

>>54400356
Why don't you just fucking YouTube the images yourself.

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>>54400156
>all these superior options to the shit show that is paper magic
>try them all
>everyone of them just makes me miss the gameplay of magic

>>54400156
Hearthstone is great, it's just really simple. I think standard is easy enough for younger kids to get into, but honestly the game is too complex for most kids to understand completely or be good at. You have a good point about pre-releases but I think the fix there is to have a beginners night on pre-release weekend for kids and newbies. That way the spikes can still spike the rest of the time. I don't want the whole of magic to be easy enough for most kids to enjoy, because frankly, it wouldn't be a good game at that point.

After years of watching friends at FNM and playing casual EDH matches, I told a shop owner I would run a Pokemon League for him on Mondays. Was a lot of fun for how casual the environment was. Watching the kids play games for the promo cards was fun. Having one casual deck for the kids and a competitive deck for the adults worked out really well. The only hard part was making sure the adults didn't rip off the kids with bullshit trades. The TCG League format was really nice for casual players to get in some games throughout the month.

>>54400529
>>54400836
I think it's too much to ask of commitments of time from the community or of store owners to host events to get inject life into Magic. You can't count on good people or stores who barely make any money on events in the first place.

Whatever the initiative, it has to come from Wizards; even if it's fixing the event reporter software so that it doesn't reliably crash every pre-release. It has to be so easy to execute that stores can adopt it and players won't blow it off as, "Well this is just another stupid fucking gimmick that's going to die in a month".

I fucking hate the concept of "casuals" but at the same time I think it is utterly detrimental to divide casuals from serious players. I think ultimately it benefits both groups if the players can mingle and talk on the same level; I want to believe that casual players can be masters at the game who opt for less competitive play and serious players can sit back and do something shitty. The problem is that the environment is not divided by mentality but by MONEY. Neither side has the flexibility to explore the other because there is no freedom to. You can't just say, "I want to try this deck", drop $100 on it and go; it's more like dropping a fresh $300 on it and that's just way to damn steep.

I need to see something monumental from Wizards. Something so big that signals they give a fuck. Because right now, it's only fools, the easily amused that are buying any of the shit they are peddling, and the shit people who think this game is healthy enough and appropriate to share with children. Even this recent crock over FNM promos is completely meaningless.

>>54401398
>players randomly decide to play games
>store owner or "Pokemon Professor" helps new players team up or play themselves
>any format they want
>winner gets two points loser gets one
>store owner stamps their MNP (Monday Night Pokemon) booklet to keep track of points
>get X points, get the promo card for the season

That's what my Pokemon League was, with "competitive" events on the weekend. It wasn't a perfect system, but if Wizards wants a less competitive environment, can't they just do something simple like this?

>>54355573
Unless you're a multi millionaire, it's hard to justify spending thousand of dollars on cardboard rectangles.

Especially when you can get them cheaper from Mr Wong

>>54401889
Well the current plan is to split the crowd; FNM for a more casual crowd and Standard Showdown for the competitive bunch. They are doing the simple thing you are proposing with some amount of structure because such a thing needs to be homogeneous throughout each community.

I don't want to disregard the possibility that the two factions, competitive and casual, need to be divided as they are almost entirely hostile to each other and cannot play together. But I have to say that neither side will benefit emotionally nor learn to cooperate if they aren't forced together and play nice.

At the end, my primary concern does not have to do with structure. Wizards making these changes are obviously in response to a problem and not while the game is at peak performance. And even after they implement this change the underlying problem responsible for what I think is all the problems in this game will still be there - game is fucking expensive; and the only solution to that is for Wizards to take a hard hit to their bottom line, refuse product to places that don't support community like Walmart, and reprint enough product that it absolutely murders any business selling cards that doesn't maintain a brick and mortar business.

I fucking how people defend WotC like it's messiah in paper card world. They do so many things so fucking badly, cutting support in every corner to save a penny and they don't even provide working platforms on anything. A lot of people working for them don't get paid properly, especially on software side. Their PR team is trash and their playtest group is nonexistent, because it's not necessary to get workers there, since you can just "fix" your shit just by banning cards you didn't playtest properly. Standard and limited is most of the time really bad.

Xmage is horrible software, but still, it's not like mtgo is any better. At least you don't have to pay money over that trash experience. Shit, even the cards are lower quality.

To get the events, big groups like channel fireball and such have to manage the scene, because wizards themselves ain't pushing it enough. Also fuck competitive scene and chase rares. Playing children's card game shouldn't cost me so much money.

>>54392835
Martin Shkreli has a magic card collection purely as an investment

>>54402389
We don't even have "well, at least they are not GW" excuse anymore. They currently could be the worst, don't know about Yu-Gi-Oh though.

>>54400836
>The only hard part was making sure the adults didn't rip off the kids with bullshit trades
so fucking sad that this is an issue
ban all weirdos and autists from game shops imo

What site is cheapest to buy singles if you live in the UK?

>>54402389
>mtgo is any better
its fine

>>54354500
I hope they reprint P9, just want to see Rudy's face when he bursts in to tears.

>>54409375

He deserves torture.

>>54409375
I don't think rudy has that much of it. He owns lots of sealed product and that wouldn't tank.

>>54399730
I think that's Magic's biggest problem. They are dealing with problems no other TCG deals with. Every other TCG gets people into it for free or super cheap with online versions. You kmow how many people sign up for MtG Online and ask FAQ boards how they can earn packs? On top of that, Magic is the only card game that worries about the card market. Pokemon saw a bunch of cards were getting pricey, so they straight up reprinted a whole set.

It's like >>54400156 said. Magic is the porn magazine of TCGs. It'll only be around in the future because of it's name, but it's going to always be slowly dying. Unless they decide they want to piss off every player who's invested more than $100 into the game, they'll never be able to gain players like their competition.

>>54409375
WotC has said that even if the RL didn't exist they wouldn't reprint the Power 9 outside of highly exclusive promos, like foiled versions for winning the Pro Tour or the like.

Even if they did reprint them as mythics in the next Eternal Masters that still wouldn't affect the price of the original printings, as it is the fact that they are original printings that makes them valuable.

>>54360270

>Implying a hypothetical physical Vintage Masters wouldn't be the biggest scam WotC would ever put out

- Power Nine and other expensive Vintage staples would be Masterpiece / Invocation tier rarity
- The expensive Dual Lands would be short printed
- Jank to useful card ratio would be off the charts
- $50 a pack

>>54411787
>Unless they decide they want to piss off every player who's invested more than $100 into the game, they'll never be able to gain players like their competition.
Same guy from both those posts.

Even though the Pokemon model cannot be applied, that does not mean that whatever Wizards is doing prevents people from walking into the store. According to my store in my podunk town, they easily get 100+ fresh new faces each year interested in Magic. This isn't fresh blood, these are people who have been kitchen-tabling or Magic video gaming who have taken the first step to play paper and showing up to their first FNM or pre-release.

Do you know what the retention rate of these people is? 0%. They'll show up once or twice the never come back; or they'll only do pre-releases. Or they just outright stop playing entirely. 100+ fresh people a year is a lot of people; even if only ten of them stayed over a year it would yield a positive population growth in the community.

Now I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best thing to go on but this is the core of the problem. People are not staying even though they are brave enough to join the community. The reason, as I stated, is that there is a wall of cancerous assholes whose behavior is primarily driven by how goddamn expensive this game is. It doesn't matter if Wizards is doing a good job driving people into the store, the problem is that they're not making sure that the environment isn't a predator-rich place that would offend anybody who is eager to participate. So what has to happen is that Wizards has to poison the water and kill the predators; you might get some good people in the process but the key is to make the place welcoming again. And once the shit people who are grubbing over their "investment" or some shit like that are gone, then the efforts from the store to keep people around will take hold and it will encourage new growth which will be healthier and welcoming to everyone involved.

>been toying around with a homebrew LCG concept
>playtest with notecards and paper tokens
>really want to get serious about production, but don't have $X00,000 lying around to pay artists

>>54388739
You dont understand economics. Wizards doesnt make Tarmogoyfs $100, the market and demand does. If tomorrow, Eager Cadet broke every format and literally every single magic player in the world went to go get a playset he would shoot up to $100s of dollars. Its the same reason that when cards get unbanned they spike in price, theres still the same amount but more people want them

>>54394878
>helping poorfags
Fuck off commie

>>54414215
But Wizards could always flood the market. Make it a rare in the next set. There is demand, but it's also about supply. Burn is in every format, but Lightning Bolt is still cheap as hell. If there is a demand, Wizards needs to meet it with the supply.

>>54414333
>Wizards could always flood the market
This kills the game.

>>54414376
So are Chinese fakes killing Legacy? I'm assuming that would be similar to Mtg printing more Snapcaster and Goyfs. I'm honestly curious, not a huge finance guy, just play casual games.

>At Modern PPTQ
>Opponent playing Eldrazi Tron
>I thoughtseize their hand
>they reveal a hand, Chalice of the Void from Mirrodin
>have hand fanned out in front of me
>Chalice looks odd
>notice it has Modern Masters wording cast a spell instead of play a spell
>Judge!
>Judge comes over I point it out
>dude gets DQ'ed cause obvious as fuck fake
>dude looks fucking devastated
>have to hold back laughter
>win a nearly unwinnable matchup
>top 32 and get some prizes
Keep coming to events poorfags its just more free wins for me

>>54414376
Yeah, so does printing next to zero cards, which is where we are now and the game is still dying.

So maybe, they could print a bit more, a mini-flood. And then maybe the game won't die from either extreme.

>>54414215
You are a retard. Wizards could print Tarmogoyf at common and the price would tank. They won't do it, because neckbeards like to have their special jewel pieces of ink to maintain some ridiculous price. Autistic people have expanded dongs when they open that one booster that has tarmogoyf and go back to buy a case more of those 10$ booster packs, because they "got their money back" from opening that one booster.

Sheep mentality in this game is super strong. They seriously think that 10$ per pack is reasonable price and they seriously think that they can't be sold on proper price, because retailers would open those themselves and not sell them at market. Here's the deal, when you are retailer and you open up 1000 tarmogoyfs, the price won't stay at 100 a piece, if every other retailer opens as many as well. Why? Because there will always be someone who will cut the price down and take the money 5$ less than their opponent, if they get the cards and money moving instantly.

>>54414376
Only because people are retards.

>>54414539
Dude we get it you're poor

>>54414471
>So are Chinese fakes killing Legacy?
They aren't of good enough quality to kill anything.

The thing about MtG that's made it successful for such a long time is that it's historically been very secure. You buy a deck for, say, $100 and you're ok with it because you know that if you want to sell it one or two years down the line you'll be able to more or less break even, unless something unexpected happens such as a card getting banned and thus losing value or if a particular card in your deck spikes, meaning that you'll actually be profiting from selling. Both of those scenarios are rare though, and most of the time the value of the cards are more or less constant.

If WotC suddenly started overprinting expensive cards it would result in players losing trust in the financial security of the game, and would make them less likely to buy into it since they probably would just be throwing money the drain by that point.

>>54414539
It's not just this game. Some portion of the population just get addicted to gambling like they're hard wired for it. They are the ones who keep casinos going, who keep the lottery alive, who play for random Overwatch skins.

Some people are just broken in the head and of those people some of them can't control their money; and the companies are smart enough to exploit them.

The more and more people profess that this is "just a children's card game" the more it can be hidden that there is some nefarious and exploitive shit baked into the structure of a booster pack. Just because people use the excuse "you can play a Limited game" with a booster pack doesn't negate the behavior of all those people who drop $100 on a box just to experience the dopamine of playing the 36-booster lottery.

>>54414593
No, quite the opposite, because I just sold my trash on average 5$ a piece, because people by shit like EDH stables at those prices. WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU BUY EDH STABLES?! What the fuck do you do with real cards, if not for sanctioned tournaments. I see some people buying duals for EDH decks, like wtf are you thinking. You get nothing back for the price you are paying.

People are throwing so much money into sink in this game and it's pretty clear most players are in sunk cost fallacy.

>>54414675
I know, right? But it's those same idiots who go around pretending they made an investment in mtg cards by throwing 400$ to some other person's pocket with realistic return of 50$ maybe, if they are lucky to ever get rid of cards. I fucking kid you not, people are defending opening CS:GO cases for skins, because you get your money a worth. A fucking CS:GO skin? Worth something? It just reminds me why human race is doomed to begin with.

>>54407701
Mtgo is fucking trash. Don't be stupid.

>>54414752
Skins are okay with me because you can still play on the same level as everyone else. MtG should just sell some ugly-ass dual lands for cheap.

>>54414702
Dude calm down, being poor isnt the end of the world

>>54414752
>people buying things are why the human race is doomed
Fuck you commie
Better dead then red

>>54414823
Skins are cancer catering those same people with gambling addiction. It pretty much works the same as opening booster packs. You are just fooling yourself thinking buying ugly ass versions of cards for cheap makes the game somehow more acceptable. For same amount of work, you could just make good looking duals for cheap.

Holy shit, only reason you would think this would make sense is that you own duals yourself and think it should be right that other people should get ugly cards, because they would pay less for the technically same card. What a cunt way of thinking.

>>54414823
No, the skin lottery is not okay. If you could outright buy the skins then fine, skins are only SOMEWHAT okay because you are trading money for a product even if it's a shit product.

The problem here is that gambling is used as a form of entertainment at all. Look at Overwatch where you get duplicates, you can't trade, and you have to open god knows how many stupid boxes to get what you want.

In spite of how evil this goddamn world is we should be grateful that for the most part you get what you paid for. For the most part that is not the case for these things. For the most part you have to spend a ridiculous amount of money gambling for the odds of getting what you want.

I understand that most people just take your shit and run with it (free to play) but established properties are already making bank and how much more bank do you need to make. And just because the voices criticizing gambling are few doesn't make the act of taking advantage of people too stupid to see that gambling for garbage product okay. We have laws protecting children from the dogshit that is gambling and I'm not saying that we need laws against chest-loot-boxes but it's very obvious that the marketplace for digital product is new and people are exploiting the shit out of it before government regulates the fuck out of it (like in China where they force companies to reveal the odds). But it shouldn't even reach a point where government has to step in; if we all weren't fucking retarded we would force the companies to cut that shit out.

I'll admit, I'm a sucker for skins and pretty shiny shit. But I won't buy that trash because I can't get what I want because the exchange of goods is locked behind this degenerate anti-consumer gambling mechanism.

>>54414702
What is so hard to believe? That people don't like to run guildgates in their decks, even in EDH? There is nothing wrong with buying a dual if you have a disposable income to do so. They hold the value pretty well so you could sell them after you are bored anyway.

REEEEEEEEEing on how people spend their money is just sad. Maybe if it's gambling, drugs or something involving RNG or other emotional manipulation, but just buying a deck? Some people even enjoy spending money just on collecting something, just to have it, not even play with it. How butthurt that concept make you?

>>54415072
>How butthurt that concept make you?
Not really at all. But here you are defending people wasting their money. I like the game, but I don't like the entirety of shit around it.

I'm just saying you get literally nothing from buying a dual land to your EDH deck. Nothing.

>They hold the value pretty well so you could sell them after you are bored anyway.
Yeah, but truth is it's not really worth anything. Just like the skins in CS:GO are worth nothing. Seriously, I got something like 500$ out of some surprise boxes you get out from stream, because they had something like 0.01% chance of dropping a AWP skin. I take that money for sure, but you are a fucking idiot, if you buy it.

>>54415072
Not him, you have to acknowledge that spending that much money on cardboard is an idiotic situation no matter your financial situation. It's paper.

People spend their money on shit things and on some level they shouldn't have been allowed to spend that money in the first place. For example, it's absurd that we are allowed to purchase electronics that have no chance of being salvaged short of burning them and collecting their metals. It's terrible that cars are being made unnecessarily complex with computers that take simple repairs out of the hands of any mechanic.

But all that is irrelevant here. What is relevant is that we have a paper product that is way too fucking expensive. And it's fine if it's expensive if we could have our cake (i.e. the game) and eat it too except we don't. We don't even have the game. The game is entirely populated by grognard retards whose shit spending habits are the sole things propping everything up and is creating a mono-culture that repels the reasonable and not-addicted portion of the population. The Magic community is being defined by the idiotic prices and artificial scarcity perpetuated by Wizards and ultimately it is going to kill the game. If you think this whole EDH situation is okay, you fail to see how degenerate it is. You're claiming to enjoy the freedom of spending your money the way you like it - that's fine. Except that behavior is detrimental to the long-term survival of this game; where instead of spending hours of potential play-time you're spending hours haggling over dollar values and looking shit up. Legacy is dead, Vintage, is dead - is there any reason why the fuck we can't access those formats easily? Even for $5 for a mox?

It's fucking paper. PAPER.

>>54414899
>>54415054
I would just rather give some money to Wizards to play Legacy instead of paying a Chinese printshop. That's how I was thinking about it. Never really cared for skins. Didn't know people had opinions on them.

>>54415216
You get a dual for your EDH deck. 99% of the playerbase buy the cards to play with them, not to compete on a PT.

>>54415289
Didn't think I would hear voice of reason through trolling. I don't mind trolling, but the thing is, people are seriously defending idiotic behavior in large scale.

>>54415348
You can get brand new shinier dual land for 10 pennies. Not worn ass shit that some kid played on concrete probably covered in dogshit 10 years ago for 150$. See the thing here I'm trying to point out?

>>54415298
Wizard get jack shit if you buy dual from some neckbeard who played the game 15 years ago.

>>54415289
I'm all in favor of counterfeits, and lower prices. Someone just sounded a little too much triggered by something pretty normal, like spending more than 10$ on an edh deck.

If someone wants a dual screaming at him "HOW COULD YOU?" is pretty autistic.

>>54415411
Yeah, that's why I wish they would put them in packs again. Reprint them and I they could take my money, instead of it going to Chinese.

>>54415549
Wizards doesn't care about you, they would throw you under the bus any day in favor of some 10 yo kid from their focus group. They didn't do anything in favor of enfranchised player in years. they just take your shit away. Now you barely even get any promos, the cardstock is shit and the reprints are in 10$ packs that could contain Call the Skybreaker. Hell, they can't even get rid of 1 character in the lore that everyone hates, because the kids like that guy in a hood.

Why are you still loyal to a company that treats you like shit?

>>54415549
Exactly, but it's people like this:
>>54415448

Defending the practices of the said company. I don't mind paying for substance. Making art and having a full team working on a game for 3months + printing costs 500k$ for the company? I'm more than willing to pay for a proper experience in game, because I'm paying for substance. Printing a card in a set that's literally put together in 15minutes and selling that shitty set as masters set for 10$ a pop? They do that, because no matter how badly they do the job, people are willing to pay them money just because there is tarmogoyf in chase rare spot.

People do realize that only constructed playable cards nowadays are in rare or mythic rare spot, right? That's because people with gambling habit are the ones buying most of the products.

>>54415411
What wizards gets from people holding on to old cards is continued interest in the game. Not only for them but for people around them. When a kid comes in to his lgs and sees that black lotus in the case for 1500, it's exciting. One of the reasons people still get into magic is because of the retained value. Wizards COULD print everything to shit. They COULD make sure there's enough cards for anyone to play any deck they wanted. You'd think that since they are still the ones selling the cards they'll keep making money, but you'd be wrong. We are already living the best case scenario for magic. If wizards reprints everything, then everything becomes worthless. If everything becomes worthless then collectors and cardshops dump their supply. If THAT happens then nobody buys into the game because there's no return. And then the game dies. And if, understanding this, you still want the game to die because you can't afford the cards you want, then your argument is about jealousy, and not really a valid point.

>>54415617
Honestly, people fail to see how bad mtgo really is. Compare the software to heartstone, which is few magnitudes higher on quality and there is still people saying it's somehow ok or up to standards you are supposed to have. Only reason they won't ever fix mtgo is because they will make money of players no matter how bad their program is.

>>54415699
>When a kid comes in to his lgs and sees that black lotus in the case for 1500, it's exciting.
It's exciting idiocy.

It's like jewelry stores selling rocks; and not even nice rocks; but mass produced crap whose craftsman sits on some assembly line cranking out the same shit with zero personality.

I'm strawmanning real hard here but here's the bottom line - we need to stop being fucking impressed by high price tags for the sake of high price tags. There is zero reason to encourage a child to think it is impressive that a piece of paper that isn't hard currency is worth that much money because it's only going to produce a shit child that thinks buying fancy rock plated rocks is a way to express your love for a spouse.

The love of the game needs to be driven entirely by the game itself and acquiring fresh cards and tools to play the game and not the prestige of some over priced piece of legacy crap you'd have to be a moron to own.

The kid should not look upon a $1500 Lotus and think it's exciting, the kid should look at a Lotus and think, "Why the fuck don't you just sell that shit immediately online for $1000, and invest it and make it earn for you along with all those other stupid pieces of paper".

You know what cheapens a work of art sitting in your room? A price tag attached to it. So put that Lotus in a fucking frame and show it off like that or just sell the fucking thing.

>>54415699
Sigh, I have my modern deck for sanctioned events. I had legacy decks, but I sold them when I realized that people are paying almost ten times the price for it that what I paid for them years ago. I get people get excited over cool cards and all that.

What I don't get is people getting excited over cards that are literally exciting just because they sell for 100$ on second hand market. I see why people have that appeal (gambling syndrome etc.), but I don't get it. I don't get why people would buy cards for kitchen table for hundreds of dollars, but apparently it's just some novelty to wank over having collectable items.

My issue is, that the current system is literally hurting the game. New people are not coming to play their jund deck or whatever to FNMs, because the deck cost 1-2k dollars. See my issue here? I have played jund more than enough to know it's not something I want to play, but if someone wants to play that deck, it shouldn't be decision factor on children's card game that "do I want to seriously drop few grands on piece of paper?"

Only reason we have ended here is the scene, where people are masturbating over having cards that have value of over 10$. It doesn't help anyone.

>>54415699

You act as if the pyramid scheme of retained value is what keeps people playing Magic, but that is not true. What keeps people playing Magic is that it is a fun game to play. The most popular formats are not the ones with the most valuable cards (Vintage is dead, yo), but the ones that are accessable and thus have the largest playerbase, resulting in a more exciting, competetive game scene.

You are wrong.

>>54415863
I love how this guy is saying all the points I'm trying to convey in comprehensive language.

>>54415739
Yeah, MODO is one of the clearest examples of their current mentality.

They spend huge amounts of money trying to market mtg for non-obvious demographics (gays, normies) while still retaining the insane prices, horribly outdated client and ridiculous policies. None of them will start playing mtg when there are insanely better alternatives for that crowd. The current playerbase is just here to be milked as much as possible and ignored. I hope this ends in a disaster.

>All the people saying MTGO is terrible

I remembered it launched 15 or so years ago, are you guys actually serious that they never bothered to update the client to stop making it look like it is from the 2000s?

>>54415921

MODO?

>>54415863
Lotus is just bling though. The price tag is as high, because it's rare and iconic. Like those old stamps, it's for rich people who enjoy collecting.

Better example could be a dual land, because people actually need that for playing the game, not just to frame it on a wall.

>>54415975

Oh, they updated their client since then. It is still shit. Arguably, it is more shit. The old client at least had the cute tables and animations going for it.

>>54415921
One thing would probably be fakes, that are exact copies of real cards. Technically there is printers so precise they can print same matrix real cards have, but there would be so much work involved to make good fakes that it's not worth it. People buy fakes as long as they look something alike.

I don't get how someone thinks expensive cards are good because of glamour over them is somehow good for the game. We only need to look at legacy or vintage to see it's not true. What a fucking horseshit.

>>54415975
People call it MODO in Eu, because that was the original title or something like that. Same shit.

>>54416020
The problem isn't printing the matrix, that's easy. The problem is a print line of color followed by a second run through to print the black.

It's obvious bootleggers don't want to calibrate shit to print crisp black separately so they don't and that will always be the limitation of fakes.

That being said it doesn't matter. For the majority of fakes out there you need a lens to see that the black is not printed separate from the color. And if we ever reach a point where people are looking at cards with a lens before deigning to play with others without any response from Wizards, then the game will be dead.

In fact, the sheer fact that players are claiming to call out other players for suspecting they play with fake cards is the first sign that the game is in an irredeemable place. We've had great proxies for years and Wizards hasn't made any moves to address that market demand by printing more shit. And that sign tells me more than anything else that they don't care. Magic can grow and grow well with multiple formats; that's why there are different fucking days in the week.

>>54376974
Which version did you get? I think mine looks a little too yellow

>>54416194
I would have thought they just use machines that have their own unique print matrix. Yeah, matching colours and paper is really hard to get right, although even the real magic cards nowadays are so low quality that they differ a lot from each other.

but I agree, we are at point where the game suffers from the card prices. Actually I argue we have been there for a long time. Granted kitchen table is the biggest portion of market, but who knows how many relatively serious competitive players have just gone off to other games after seeing even the cheapest good deck priced higher than 300$?

Only reason why I'm still playing is because I haven't been able to sell my last cards away after card prices started jumping two years ago.

I got some modern staples from based Chinaman. All of them look perfect except the text on my Snapcaster Mages isn't perfect. But I let my buddy use my Snaps for a PTQ (he doesn't know they are fake) and he never noticed anything weird about them. And they are the least accurate of all my fakes.

I don't ever plan on getting any legacy or vintage shit. Owning even Goyfs is a bit out of the ordinary around here. Owning Legacy staples is definitely out of the ordinary and will draw attention. It's just too big of a risk.

And no, it's not really cheating. The cost barrier for competitive play is bullshit. I would never stack my deck or draw extra cards or whatever. I have respect for the game. But having the actual game pieces to play with isn't part of the competition. If I was put in charge of MTG with unlimited power, I would print the shit out of everything and drive prices down as much as possible, then focus more on rare promos and foils for collectors.

I don't ever plan on selling any of my fakes. It's just way too risky. No trading either. I'll just use them for Modern forever. no problem

>>54406238
Magiccardmarket, is the primary site I use for singles.

My dream is for no single card to exceed $20 in value.

A-am I stupid or delusional? I just wanna play the game without throwing my wallet away.

File: Hunt-Bigger-Games.jpg (416KB, 1196x782px) Image search: [Google]

416KB, 1196x782px

>>54419523
>I just wanna play the game without throwing my wallet away.
That's your first mistake.

>>54416943
cheers

>>54414478
>Things that never happend
>t. Star city jew shill