>Alternative history >England and France are merged. >Anglo-french

>>54347850
>Britain still speaks english and france still speaks french in this timeline.
You know that's impossible, any merger happening so early would have (as normal) have the British royalty speak French, that's bound to get down to the peasants, especially if there are still French language reforms in this timeline.

>>54347876
I thought around this timehas the English language already developed?

>>54347850
Long term, us Britons would eventually end up speaking French. They'd bleed into eachother a bit, so you'd probably end up with some kind of Frenglish dialect.

Depends how long we're talking too, and what approach the French took to the different languages.

BBC French.
Local dialects will have some YE OLDE ENGLISH elements. You know. Think Orkish Cockney.

SACRUUBLUE! JAY NAAH SAIYUZ PAYEJ!

I assume that they merged during Hundred Years War. Besides the peasantry which will still have local dialects until some hypothetical reforms, the nobility will speak mainly french with some english words/expression.

A plausible ratio would be 85% french and 15% english.

>>54347850
>Anglo tendency to genocide plus French war boners

Germans be like: "Yo, slow down, six millions are more than enough!"

>>54347994
"Ireland? Scotland? I don't know what you're talking about!"

>>54347850
How and when?

>>54347850
Look at French Canada for a case study.

>>54348019
Hundred Years War

>>54347922
Considering how much French has bled into English rather than the opposite until like the 20th and 21st century, I doubt there'd be much Frenglish, rather just French.

>>54347994
There wouldn't be Germans left and you know it. The natural border between France and Germany might be the Rhine, but the natural borders of the Anglo-French Empire would be the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

>>54348087
There are, at most, two things which would have any chance of stopping it, and that would be a successful Polish-Muscovite Union or a union of all the Jagiellon Crowns. Either way, Germany is, at best, a battleground between the two, if not actively subsumed into them.

>>54347850
French language really developed when France started its mandatory school program in 1883.
It's efficiency in removing local languages can be shown by the fact that teachers of that period are called "the black hussars of the Republic".
Coupled with the French Academy, expect everyone to use standard french today, with accents and a couple specific regional words in spoken french.
Probably some revival of other languages linked with independantist movements.

English could have survived in some technical domains due to cultural differences (example: sport vocabulary for cricket)

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>>54348279
>polish-muscovite union
>polish and muscovites working together
Call the fucking Khan already because the Anglo-French just charged right through East-Europe while the Polish and Muscovites were arguing.

>>54348279
Actually, I suppose there's one more possibility, though its even less likely then either of those two: an HRE-Byzantine Union, presumably resulting from a marriage between Charlemagne and Irene, though whether the conditions for a France-Britain Union would arise under such circumstances is nearly as doubtful as the union itself.

>>54348308
If the 1605 war goes better for the Poles, the Muskovites may not have the choice of not working together. If its a more diplomatic union, then the threat of the Anglo-French Union may be sufficient motivation to actually get them to be (grudgingly) functional, though its certainly worth acknowledging that it also may not.

>>54348286
That's not even a guarantee, there are French translations for a lot of cricket and football related words.

>>54347984
The English monarchy and nobility were still Francophone up to Henry V, and the same realities (small conquering class of administrators rather than full colonization) that let English endure in England and eventually emerge as the language of the merchant class when it took power would have let French endure in France.

Linguistically, I'd honestly expect not too much to change before the modern era. Each side would have less need to coin their own words for inventions from the other, though. Post-1900, the majority language of the colonies, whatever it ended up being for worldbuilding reasons you haven't touched on, would take more and more importance, with Quebecois becoming the new standard French dialect and likely the new standard global language just as English has in our timeline.

This does really depend on your departure point and other worldbuilding, though.
What I'd find most interesting rather than most plausible is to have something similar to late Law French take hold on both sides of the channel, primarily transmitted by writing, in such a way where like Classical Chinese a Scot could write an almost completely intelligible letter to a Provençal, but neither would have the slightest understanding of the other reading it aloud.

>>54348420
I'm basing that off the fact that some hobbies tend to keep english words because it sounds cooler. Rugbyman, Tennisman, Winch,...even if those words have a french translation or don't even exist in english.
It's a way for the practitioneers to distinguish themselves, and it would probably be exacerbated by a big Anglo-french empire.

>>54347850
So, bretonnia?

>>54348550
Bretonnia is 99% France.

>>54351312
I think the confusion comes from the whole Arthurian imagery, like the phantom Knight. But those legend are anglo-french since many French authors contributed

>>54347850
Well, ignoring the fact that multi-ethnic, multi-language empires are doomed to collapse because of the fundamental differences that linguistics creates, what is the context for this empire? Why are the French and British merged?
Did William the Conqueror remain a vassal of France?
Did England lose the battle of Agincourt and become an appendage of the Kingdom of France?
Did France lose the 100 Years War and become a vassal of the Throne of England?
Did one power overcome the other during one of the many wars fought for the balance of power in 17th-18th century Europe?
Or perhaps did the governments of France and Great Britain unify during WW2?

All of these possibilities present different outcomes and different inter-ethnic relationships (or perhaps the lack thereof).

>>54352602
>>Or perhaps did the governments of France and Great Britain unify during WW2?
>tfw this will never happen now.
>tfw there will never be a great Franco-German united nation either.
Why even live? In France, that is. Might as well move out.

>>54352732
France. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

>>54352732
Well technically the EU is a Franco-German dominated, multi-ethnic empire but it ain't great and is doomed to failure.

>>54352602
>multi-ethnic, multi-language empires are doomed to collapse because of the fundamental differences that linguistics creates

Are they, really ?
Both France and Britain were already multi-language countries back then and did not collapse. Many countries that still exists today were multi-ethnic and multi-languages.

>>54352962
>Many countries that still exists today were multi-ethnic and multi-languages.
Name some that aren't massively dominated by one ethnicity or language. Yes most countries have some small minority groups but until the past 20 years there weren't a lot of (relevant) multi-ethnic states and the ones that do exist now aren't doing so hot.

>>54353111
>Name some that aren't massively dominated by one ethnicity or language.

So when you're saying "multi-language empire" you are referring to a nation which doesn't have a single official language ?

If so, yes this is quite absurd, any country will tend to have a main official language at least for administration. But if you consider a multi-language nation as just a country with different large groups speaking different languages China or India are good modern examples.

Concerning ethnicity, many countries don't give a shit and this doesn't really apply in this particular case.

>>54353262
>doesn't have a single official language ?
Does the USA still not have a official language?

>>54353262
>>54353317
>China
>India
>USA
You're right that these countries have multiple languages spoken within their borders, but my point was that they have de facto languages spoken by de facto ethnicities.

China for example recognizes 56 native ethnic groups - but the Han are 91% of the population. Likewise, China recognizes 292 languages but Mandarin is the native language of over 70% of the population.

While it's true that other ethnic groups and languages exist in these countries, it's absurd to say they are deeply multi-ethnic in the way Western democracies are becoming. Even America is 70%+ white and 80%+ anglophone.

Supposing this is "England wins HYW". Scotland loses its main backbone of independence, conquered soon after. Burgundy has to kiss loads of ass in advance to stay alive, what with a massively powerful king controlling the most populous nation on Earth and really centralized. Ireland is brought to the fold easily. Capital is either London or Paris, likely London with Paris as a secondary capital. French becomes the main language, though picture it as a quite a bit more French-influenced English. Now here's the fun bit. Other than taking the South bank of the Rhine because no one is stopping the bastards at that level, I can see the Dutch being massively reduced in power, the Austrians and Spanish and Danish teaming up to try and defeat the Bretons... with Portugal and the Ottomans as allies.

It's not going to be stable but it's going to be dangerous. Other things - this might lead to Grossdeutschland. I'm going to iron out the details, but the bottom line is that Europe gets a whole load of massive wars.

>>54352602
>multi-ethnic, multi-language

Anglo-french would be hardly multi-ethnic and multi-language.

>>54353690
You would think, but there were linguistic divides between England and Scotland for centuries - and still ethnic differentiation.

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>>54347850
From what I can tell you about Anglo-Francophone hybrid societies, the way the languages evolve is that they don't.

>>54354354

I live in Ottawa and hear Quebecois mash together English and French in everyday conversation pretty regularly. Less often in the opposite direction besides a few meme words/phrases, though.

>>54347850
It's called Canada.

>>54353657
>portugal
>not sucking anglo cock
Wew

>>54354354
>>54354376
>Talk with québécois. (dirty fucking scum, purge them all)
>"mdr vous les français vous parlez même plus français" (lol you french people don't even talk french anymore)
>Later.
>"gtg, je vais avoir une game de football avec ma gang de buddies"
>Not only uses English for half the words there, but also uses English grammar ontop of French verbs.
Just burn them all Canadanon, please. Or make them independent and let them all die. Then you get to reclaim the land if it's not too diseased.

>>54354354
>>54354634
nah mec, cdope. Jus coupe lmot. css

>>54354376
same in montreal its like 80% french and 20% english in a single sentence.

>>54354634
someone is butthurt the french canadian didnt lose their culture to invaders...

seriously, ive been in the rural parts of quebec and people just dont hate english speaking canadian. i think theres propaganda against french canadian or something. most i talked with dont even want independance.

>>54347850
to answer OP, mostly english with french words. french is way harder to memorize and learn so it would probably be english with lots of french flavor words, like delicieux instead of delicious

>>54352962
You'll notice that the British Empire nor the French Empire exist anymore.

You also notice that the countries themselves are facing a lot of internal divisions based on where various non-natives have settled in the past century.

Multi-ethnic empires just are doomed to fail.

>>54355090
>someone is butthurt the french canadian didnt lose their culture to invaders...
That's because they have no culture in the first place.

>>54355337
>empires are doomed to fail
If you want to abstract it that hard I can shorten it for you.

>>54355090
Most of canada is butthurt about other parts of canada at any given point in time. We're thankfully diffuse enough that people rarely get it together enough to organize violence about it. Unless its against natives. Pretty organized about that.

>>54355090
It's because americans like to hate on French in general and they think Canada should be even more like them.
Also I think Canada is a bad example since the reason English is bigger there is simply because English is the lingua franca of the world right now. Might very well be different if its French after this little hypothetical.
Which makes me think. What happens to the US in this timeline? Without France and England fighting there isn't really a reason to let the americans succeed in their little revolt I think.

Also second scenario William of Nassau in England actually produces heirs and colonial england and holland merge into a super naval power

>>54355542
Explain China

>>54355337
When you're right, you're right. I mean look at Rome, what a shit show that was.

Multi-ethnic empires, just can't compete.

>>54355649
Still doomed to fail eventually.

>>54355721
All empires are multiethnic, that's the idea. Your parameters a shit.

Saying 'X empire is doomed to fail because Y' is inane.

>>54355337
The French still regularily dick around in their former colonies. Best thing the English manage is to troll people who want to have good and ongoing economic and political relations with them and who seek them out for that purpose.

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>>54347850

There is a convenient timepoint where the union could have occured. The Hundred Years War was fought due to a claim that the Plantagenate Kings had on the throne of France. If Joan of Arc never happened, its entirely probable that the english would have conquered the rest of france

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>>54356912

Related, map shows the greatest extent of english occupation of france

>>54356912
>>54356945

3/?

At the time most of the english nobility had "Franc-ified" thanks to the norman conquest hundreds of years earlier. The cultural barrier between the members of the aristocracy would have been minimal, and would have only begun to matter if the peasants took a particular dislike to eachother across the channel.

The French nobility was famously flexible in their loyalty. the king of france could not travel safely beyond his own demense most of the time and the majority of nobles enjoyed a great deal of local autonomy. This was a contrast to england where the king had lesser power due to the Magna Carta, but the nobility was more willing to behave itself.

The other big difference between england and france at the time was in the army. The french army was smaller and made up mostly of knights and their retainers. The english army was significantly larger and could call upon large levies of peasants who (swore loyalty to their king rather than a local lord or baron) to bulk out their numbers and give a battlefield edge over the french. The french nobility hated the idea of arming their peasantry and so resisted the idea as long as they could

>>54357097
>large levies of peasants
That's a slightly ambitious description of the armed freemen that were there and gives the wrong impression to a casual reader.

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>>54356912
What about Henry V not dying from illness at age 35, before he could inherit the throne of France. In the real timeline, Charles VI of France only outlived him by about a year, resulting in the Dauphin inheriting the French throne & hindering the English war effort.

>>54357097
>large levies of peasants

Assuming you're refering to the archers, they were at least yeomen, not true peasants, and were almost always hired rather than levied and tended to be far more professional that 'levied peasantry' generally implies.

England did make use of a form of levy by getting sheriffs to offer pardons in exchange for militaryservice, which is why you see 'daggermen' make up parts of a lot of English armies during the Hundred Years War. Literally just a bunch of cut-throats and rapists being send overseas to murder Frenchmen in exchange for pardons.

>>54357256
This is the easiest point to join the two countries really. If he'd lived an average lifespan for the period, you'd have got a good couple of decades at least with the two countries under strong common rule.

Maybe Henry VI gaining the throne as an adult and having dominion over France would have stopped the Wars of the Roses too.

>Anglo genocidal tendencys + french war boner
>french nobilities abuse of peasents + anglo carelessness
The reveloution is going to be fucking bloody of they go too far indebt

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>>54357685
You'd be the first into the vat

Do Britain and France merge after the Norman Conquest or after/during the Hundred Years' War? Or later?

>>54347850
English is already like 50-60% french and latin words anyway.

>>54356945
>>54356912

Pssht, Hudred Years War is overstated. The real opportunity for Anglo-French unity came a couple of hundred years earlier with the Angevin empire forged by Henry II, which was the whole basis for the English claims in the HYW. The Angevins ruled pretty much all the UK and Ireland as well as half of France (legitimately, I might add), while the Capetin dynasty of French kings were weak and lacked much authority. Henry was basically lining his sons up for the succession, but he was almost a victim of his own success and hunger for power. Three male heirs surviving to adulthood is a recipe for trouble, especially when he hoarded all the authority to himself and refused to give his eldest son in particular even a proper lordship. The result was all of his sons rebelling against him multiple times, with the support of the Capetins, and even his own wife. Henry died young in the middle of his second rebellion, Richard and John later forced their way to power, then once Richard was king, John basically gave away the entirety of their French possessions in order to get Capetin support for a grab for the crown while Richard was stuck on crusade.

Anyway, for a time it was one of the largest and richest empires in Europe, with a largely Norman nobility who had a pretty well established cross-channel Anglo-French identity and culture, derived from their mostly owning lands in both countries. More Francophone than English, but then we have to remember that both Medieval Norman French and Medieval English were very different from their modern equivalents.

>>54357960

Sorry, I should say that when I say 'Henry died young' I'm referring to Henry II's eldest son, sometimes known as 'the Young King Henry', the elder brother of Richard the Lionheart. Anyway, primary reason this empire might have stood a chance of success is because its nobility all had genuinely Anglo-French identities, they all saw themselves as being of both nationalities. There wasn't the sense of one country being under the yoke of the other.

So, assuming Anglo-French union is achieved during, say, the Hundred Years War, what does the year 2000 look like, geo-politically speaking?

I know this requires speculation and conjecture, but those are some of the most fun bits of alt-history.

>>54358109
A country with the fleets of England and the armies of France would probably dominate everything for a long while. Unless it fell to internal problems, it'd probably be in the position of the US right now.

>>54358109
There's a line of thought where Germany wins WW2 because of this, except there's no way Germany as we know it would exist because France and England in combination would shape everything else in Europe around them. Think of Napoleon - none of that happens, or if it happens it happens from something that's already a superstate.

>>54348014
Wales? Aren't zose sum kind of Poisson?

>>54353111
China. While the Han are the bulk of the populace, just like the French would be the bulk of the OP's, they themselves speak a variety of languages with Mandarin only fully established as a sort of Common in the past 50 years. And while the borders have remained amazingly stable in relative terms for the past thousand years, of the last three dynasties, one was Han, one was Mongol, one was Manchurian.

And that's if you take the view that the Han are one ethnicity, which is plausible but a politicized choice similar to arguing that the Germanic tribes are all one ethnicity. Which would mean that the guy going REEEEEE MULTICULTURALISM ALWAYS FAILS LET ME REDPILL YOU WITH MY HAVING NEVER GOTTEN BEYOND AMERICAN HIGH SCHOOL HISTORY REEEEEEEEE has nothing to stand on as op's Franks, Angles, and Saxons would just be an old family reunion.

>>54358215
>There's a line of thought where Germany wins WW2 because of this

Care to elaborate?

>>54347876
>British royalty speak French, that's bound to get down to the peasants
The English language is very interesting because it already uses a lot of French loan words for things associated with the aristocracy like finance and art. But daily use words are all Germanic root.

(Because what you said would happen actually happened in 1066. French was the courtly language in England until 1680 or so.)

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>>54355649
There are 7 distinct empires in Chinese history with new dynasties simply moving in and successfully being co-opted by the Mandarins, IIRC.

China's never really been an empire, but a bureaucratic federation of states with nominal imperial head families.

>>54353657
If England won the HYW, Paris would still the capital.

>>54360457
That's kind of every empire, though. Even if we consider the Norman Conquest to be a clean start of the English Empire, and assume the various Angevin infighting to be all one line, we have:
- Rule by Normandy
- Rule by Anjou
- Rule by the Republic
- Rule by more extended Angevins
- Rule by Orange
- Rule by Hanover
- Rule by Saxe-Coburg
- Complete abolition of de facto royal power, rule by Parliament
all embracing the same, gradually modified, structures.

>>54360258
A French-dominated Great Normandie is likely to consider the Isles as first among its colonies rather than a redoubt, and if the same situation which led to our metropolitan Third Republic surrendering played out, they would probably be initially pacified in 1940.

I disagree that that's a victory condition for Germany, though, The Western front was a victory lap compared to the Southern or Eastern, and anyway there's no guarantee that alternate-de Gaulle doesn't simply start his colonies-supported campaign from Vichy Albion rather than Vichy Algiers. And the colonies will be at war with Japan over control of the Pacific anyway, and need an Old World foothold of rebellious Frenchies to keep the Germans occupied.

>>54358109
Henry V (Henri II) conquers. Henry VIII's (Henri V) hijinks still occur and Canterbury is still the only primate who will play along.
The Civil War is continental Catholics victorious over Albion-focused Stuarts; Charles I/VII has an inauspicious-enough name and goes full Louis XVI when he runs out of money, and it turns out poorly for him.
Charles II/VIII and royalists flee to Nouvieau Albion.
Habsburgs quickly dispose of the Cromwell-equivalent and install one of their own, settling down for a good old fashioned Inquisition.
Prussian push to Paris of 1870 triggers Communist revolution akin to 1917 Russia.
Russia never experiences shock-modernization because the Prussians always have bigger fish to fry, but could find Lebensraum earlier.
Pacific War nonconclusive, Japan able to colonize easier with fewer competitors + no longer needs to risk a knockout punch against four great power allies.

>>54358109
>>54364478
A.D. 2000:
Technological level: 1930s, with neither World War nor a Cold War to push heavy R&D investment.

Major powers:
Neau Albion - A somewhat Victorian monarchy, with feudal privileges still nominally applicable but essentially monetized. Its vast and fruitful territories have, as yet, allowed for younger sons and more-ambitious commoners to be created Lords of patches wide enough where their martial ambition seldomly extends further than their neighbor's few miles of cornfield. With its rabid hatred for the Habsburgs stemmed by their deposal in the Red May revolution, its rivals are limited to Dainippon over the Pacific and residual Habsburg loyalist colonies to the south, with Mehique subjugated in the late 19th Century.
Specializes in technology useful in its large territories, with the aeroplane and the mass-market automobile as recent discoveries.

The USC/L'Union des Communes Socialistes - Formed when a Prussian thrust to the heart of the decadent Habsburg monarchy in 1870 weakened it enough to allow a revolution. Able to claw back the industrial Sarre and Rhénanie in the early 20th Century, it now comprises most of Western and Southern Europe and Northwestern Africa, and is pursuing an ongoing campaign of world revolution primarily targeting independent former Habsburg colonies as well as members of the Noerdischer League. Politically, while zealous, its success and the lack of an immediate threat have allowed it to remain more Lenin-Trotsky, less Stalin.
Specializes in automation and heavy machinery, due to a postwar demographic crunch which can still be felt.

>>54364490
Noerdischer League - Following the defeat of Prussia and subjugation of much of metropolitan Germany in the earliest 20th Century, the uneasy union that it had forced on the other Protestant trader-princes dissolved back into a loose confederation. While the League controls much of the world's territory, having carved off much of the Old World while the Albionese focused on ridding South America of the Habsburgs and the Habsburgs focused on building it up to eventually reconquer the Albionese, it can seldom agree on much besides "better dead than Red." Its multitudinous rulers rarely pass up an opportunity to "acquire" territory from each other, often under pretexts related to stemming USC plots by suppressing the peasants/giving the peasants bread and circuses/suppressing the peasants again.
Specializes in information and communications technology, with a new automatically-switched radio telegraph network now delivering instant news to the homes of those rich enough to afford it.

Dainippon - Able to focus only on the Noerdischers and a few firewalled but specific Albionese resource settlements, the Nipponese conquest of Southeast Asia was able to roll to the banks of the Ganges over the course of the century since their isle unified; however, its rapid advance and the still-weak unity of their political class has produced an unstable military dictatorship, where a ruthless secret service enforces absolute obedience from the nominally-independent old royalty of conquests. Has fought a series of recent colonial wars with the League, in which strategically significant islands are traded back and forth; Albion is watching this warily and building up forces to protect its access to rubber and guano.

>>54364502
Potential spark points:
Ottoman Empire/Persia - Physically between the USC and Dainippon, with Albion being the thirstiest for oil.
Hawaii - Strategically key to the Pacific. The League and Dainippon may be content to trade it in limited wars, but eventually Albion will get it and Albion isn't used to -losing- land.
Brazil - A minor power in its own right, the last extent of Habsburg control. Albion, following manifest destiny, is unlikely to want to just leave it there, while the USC wants to destroy the monarchy once and for all.
China - The Emperor manages to get a sentence out of his mouth while the Nipponese handler holding a needle at the base of his skull sneezes. Numerically-superior rebellion, now with forces split.
Nippon - The Emperor manages to get a sentence out of his mouth while the Nipponese handler holding a needle at the base of his skull sneezes. Reshuffling of factions, possibly to either "our population is high enough to genocide rather than keeping this charade up" OR to "integrate them to make us stronger".

>>54348454
>Quebecois becoming the new standard French dialect and likely the new standard global language
The horror!

>>54364478
>>54364490
>>54364502
>>54364511
Who let the japanese out if there was no US to force them to wake up?

>>54354516
Got a bit jumbled, but it 's essentially Spain, Austria/HRE, Denmark/Kalmar versus Ottomans and Portugal and Angevin Empire around the time of the Italian Wars.

>>54364563
Albion and the League are both going to be sticking their dicks in around that time, along with residual Habsburg interest in the Philippines that was already established by the time they get drawn into the departure. The big East Asia departure isn't the Japs not getting woken up by colonialism, it's that WW1-2 double shot of end of empire gets moved up a generation and they have a vacuum to expand into.

>>54357256
>>54357482

It would have probably ended up with the same thing that happened to the Angevin empire, eventually an incompetent king would come along and lose territory on either side of the English channel, ultimately the English people and French people have distinct differences that lend themselves to internal rebellion to oppose 'foreign' rule.

>>54364834
that's a silly assumption of what-is-must-be that ignores the lack of a modern french identity before charles vii's campaigns. if the men of anjou can be subsumed whole into the ile-de-france identity, why can't the men of ile-de-france be subsumed into the anjoullais?