Why did he join Chaos? I understand not being loyalist but going

>>54295555
Same reason they all did - daddy issues

>>54295555
Wasn't his ship trapped in the warp and everyone on board subjected to torture via disease until they yielded and pledged to nurgle?

>>54295573
Some more than others. Reminder that he became a carbon copy of the evil father figure he ran off to go kill, on a copy-pasted planet that the Emperor 'stole' from him. The only one with bigger daddy issues was Horus and even that's debatable.

>>54295555
He was tricked into it because typhus convinced him to kill his navigators and just blindly jump into the warp, and right into a big old nurgle hug.

He was like a mini Eribus in a way.

>>54295555
Pappy Nurgle is quietly the most pervasive and permanent of the Chaos gods, once a mortal gets embraced by him you can't go back.

>>54295597
He wouldn't have been in that position to begin with if he hadn't willingly turned traitor though. Typhus played him like a fiddle because he was already terminally ass blasted.

>>54295573
I thought Cruze and Angron was less daddy issues and more the insanity. And Pertuabo had Rogal issues.

>>54295555
It was, he was press-ganged into it by suffering the worst torture Nurgle was able to inflict until he submitted.

Of course he was still going to be on the rebelling side, and he'd started to crack a bit in the head (including adopting a stance somewhat like a radical inquisitor), but he had no intention of serving the dark gods - especially not yet another "father", but there you go, that's chaos for you.

>>54295632
Peturabo just had issues.

>>54295666
Did they ever give an explanation for his massive heel turn in personality after he joined the great crusade Satan?

>>54295555
Mortarion is the worst Primarch. People always say its Lorgar or Russ but they at least got what they wished.
Mortarion on the otherhand ended up on the team that stood for everything that he hated, whilst the Emperor was trying to create an empire that stood against the warp, witches and sorcery. And why did he do this? Because he's an insecure, paranoid failure.

>>54295555
He couldn't even conquer his home planet.

Everyone knows the bitch primarchs couldn't rule their planets filled with inferior men.

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>>54295776
I wouldn't really call it a turn, he was always kind of an ass, and paranoid as fuck, but Horus was kind of a dick to him as well - making him swear oaths upon oaths.

And a big part of why Pert joined the rebellion was because he flipped out and crushed his homeworld when it rebelled, so as starting positions go that's not great.

And then there's Phall, where his fleet took on a numerically inferior force of Fists and were losing before the Fists made a withdrawal - and part of this losing battle included boarders reaching his sanctum, which made him even more paranoid (and is why he built pic related instead of having marines guard him)

>>54295555
I really hated that all primarchs either joined chaos or stayed loyal. There should have been a couple who just went full renegade and started their own empires, but nothing to do with chaos. Would have made for a much more interesting dynamic. Morty, Pert and Khan as renegades could have worked

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>>54296144
I could see a lot of people in that setting deciding that choosing between the Imperium and chaos is like having to choose between ebola and terminal cancer. Also the universe as a whole is pretty gigantic, and chaos seems to be infecting only the Milky Way if I'm not mistaken. Why doesn't anyone get the bright idea to build a colony ship and split for where things might be EVEN WORSE MUWAHAHAHAHA

>>54295632
Angron had serious mental issues due to the butcher nails and having his father "save" him but allow his friends to die.

Curze tried to be good, but ended up being mentally disturbed, he hated his own legion for being made of mostly criminals, murderers and rapists, he realised too late what he was

Perty was a bit of a dick to start with and didn't get to do what he considered he was best at, he was on the whole somewhat petty

>>54297095
There was some old lore about ships trying to leave the galaxy, but they end up never being heard from again. Plus you cant warp travel outside the galaxy, so it would just be hundreds of thousands of years of traversing the void

(Plus nids would get you)

>>54297114
>>54296096
>>54295666
>>54295632
Remember also that in the original canon (now butchered by the HH), Pertuabo was suffering under tremendous PTSD because Horus purposefully used him as a work horse, sending him to every high lethality shit-hole he could while heaping easy jobs and praise onto Dorn just to grind Pertuabo down into nothing

>>54297095
Because the Warp is so still, you can't travel along it's currents, IE there is no FTL beyond the galaxy, and FTL beyond the radius of the Astronomicon is already harrowing as hell

>>54297095

The chaos is made by the minds of uncountable people, if people leave the galaxy, it would be an alternate form of people perma dying, chaos wouldn't let it happen

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>>54297095
Chaos exists in other galaxies or will follow you wherever you go because Chaos knows no limit.

picture related.

>>54297211
The warp seems to be a universal thing, however chaos gods only seem to emerge where there is life, theres lots of conflicting lore on it, but my takeaway is that galaxies have their own chaos deities and the void between is empty

>>54295555
Better question: would any of the other primachs break as he did? If so, which?

>>54297226
No, there isn't. It's just your headcanon conflicting with the lore. The Chaos Gods are the same across different realities, galaxies, and universes

If you knew the fluff, you would know that Chaos can destroy all life and still exist. They do not require life. Life is their enemy and they are (except Nurgle) are the enemy of all that lives.

>>54297238
The only reason Mortarion broke is he already felt hollow, existential despair, as the Emperor had robbed him of what he thought was his purpose early on

>>54297247
Nah, Chaos is weak shit and its 'gods' are just ripples of psychic energy. No life = no psyches = no chaos.

>>54297247
Not the person you were responding to, but I kind of want to strangle whichever person decided this be the case, as it's almost insultingly uninteresting and generic, and is much of why I'm almost entirely uninterested in chaos nonsense this day and age.

>>54297283
You'd be right if GeeDubs didn't decide to do their macroverse bullshit and innately make their setting more generic and cookie-cutter.

Then again, the only people who are still into modern 40k lore are mindless fanboys.

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>>54297283
Absolutely false. The fluff says that even if all life is extinguished the Chaos Gods will stay around eternal.

>>54297287
The founders of the setting because that lore was there when Chaos was first introduced. Open your 3th ED rulebook.

>>54297317
>The founders of the setting because that lore was there when Chaos was first introduced.
My distate and desire to strangle them are unchanged, next.

>>54297138
I think Horus still kinda did that - I mean Pert was fighting a massive Hrud incursion when he got the news about Olympia, that's hardly light work.

Dorn earned his praise by being good though, no-one was heaping praise on him just to shit on Perturabo... that would meant that they cared enough about Pert to antagonise him

>>54297317
>The founders of the setting
Lol, as if that means anything. 40k's lore-writers have been idiotic since the beginning, it's still a bland direction to take with your antagonists. Maybe stop being so loyal to a brand that only exists to suck currency out of you with a pretty setting ad advertisement.

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Justify this, /teegee/

>>54297341
>bland

It's like saying it's bland to have Great Cosmic horrors always have their way while the mortals are helpless, in Lovercraft material.

And I will give my bucks to whoever I wish. I am not that petty to be driven off by some lore I don't like in a 30+ years old setting.

>>54297387
But Lovecraft is bland and cosmic horror is bad.

>>54297387
>It's like saying it's bland to have Great Cosmic horrors always have their way while the mortals are helpless, in Lovercraft material.
Lovecrfat wasn't that great a writer, first of all. All his writing was driven by his absolutely asinine degree of being scared by almost anything, and if you read into his stories you'll quickly find they're just a way to vent his political fears (innsmouth = interracial romance) while also writing flowery.


But ignoring that, the horror of Lovecraft's setting wasn't that the gods were evil and hated all life, no, the horror was that we, and life in general, were so insignificant they didn't care about us whatsoever. The closest thing to an 'evil' lovecraft deity was Nyarlathotep. Everything else was just apathetic, even Cthulhu. The Dunwich Horror shows this in particular, as Yog-Sothoth literally was so beyond our scope and so uncaring of our existence that it lead to him being exploited by a human to bring her demonic children.

>>54297429
Along that line, humans were the core of the evil in Call of Cthulhu, too, the cult wanted to summon him early, and when he rose he was happy to go back to sleeping for a good long while after getting hit with a single steamboat, showing that the true DESIRE to end the world fell on the humans worshipping him, while it was just how he works, as opposed to an active lust in destroying humanity.

>>54297317
>>54297247
The Cabal wanted mankind to be destroyed by Horus because he would take Chaos with it. The lore is contradictory on the matter because Chaos is alternatively being wanked and shit on and there's no damn solid answers because Black Library can't be asked to have coherent ideas and every edition tweaks it a bit anyways. All according to plan to loose then or some shit. Who cares, we still buy the plastic crack.

If fantasy wasn't wrecked there'd be an example you could point to and show that Chaos gods are existent and coherent between universes but there's nothing left and Slannesh was replaced by a rat.

It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life but "muh omnipotence and omniscience" is lacking more with every book they put out. They can't get rid of Dennis "Draigo" the menace. They're limited.

>>54297308
>generic
>>54297341
>bland

How?

>>54297287
This, chaos is dull because its got so many "chaos will always win no matter what" scenarios or "if khorne rasies his sword the whole universe implodes" things

Its kinda boring and bullshit

>>54297541
Havign your villains just be all-powerful gods who win no matter what while also making them eeeevil and obsessed with destroying life is objectively boring, even Tolkien had more nuance than that.

>>54297283
This was the better scenario, the chaos gods want eternal war and want to rip the galaxy apart, then this shit happened>>54297317

Chaos wants to just destroy all reality and can with ease so GG other factions

>>54297539
>The Cabal wanted mankind to be destroyed by Horus because he would take Chaos with it.

So the Cabal thought, but they're clearly shown to be capable of error.

>there's nothing left and Slannesh was replaced by a rat.

There's the Bloodbowl universe. And Slaanesh is still present in Age of Sigmar.

>It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life

They already have presence across the universe. Tzeentch has the power to hear all the hopes and dreams of beings across the universe for example.

>>54297582
>Tzeentch has the power to hear all the hopes and dreams of beings across the universe for example.
And I'm to find this interesting, somehow?

>>54297565
>Havign your villains just be all-powerful gods who win no matter what while also making them eeeevil and obsessed with destroying life is objectively boring

How?

>It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life

Tolkien was essentially the opposite, evil was limited while good was boundless.
Chaos represents man's own evil and sin eventually catching up with him and destroying him.

IIRC, he really didn't have a choice. Typhus tricked him and he was forced to pledge his soul to nurgle to save his legion and himself

>>54297598
You're to find that this proves you wrong about them being limited to the milky way by the species there.

>>54297605
>How?
It just takes me out of the world and leaves it hard to get invested, a group that is guaranteed to win and there's no defense against removes tension from a universe and leads me to just stop caring about anything within it.

>>54297618
Not that guy, should have clarified. I'm well aware of the greater scope of Chaos within the lore, I just don't find it fun.

>>54297628
Are you not invested in the real universe because of heat death?

>>54297605
>How?
0 tension, 0 chance for good guys to win, its literally like a story about all of humanity vs 1 ant, your only interest is how long the ant can survive before it gets stepped on, it gets pretty dull

>>54297539
>he Cabal wanted mankind to be destroyed by Horus because he would take Chaos with it.

As Eldrad pointed out, the Cabal plan was bullshit and wouldn't have worked.

>The lore is contradictory on the matter because Chaos is alternatively being wanked and shit on and there's no damn solid answers because Black Library can't be asked to have coherent ideas and every edition tweaks it a bit anyways. All according to plan to loose then or some shit. Who cares, we still buy the plastic crack.

You go with the recent sources that for last decade all agreed on what Chaos is now.

>If fantasy wasn't wrecked there'd be an example you could point to and show that Chaos gods are existent and coherent between universes but there's nothing left and Slannesh was replaced by a rat.

AoS is the continuation of WHFB. And recently daemons in AoS have disappeared in mass (especially those of Nurgle) and the flavor text says that these daemons have went to wage war in another plane of reality. Huge implication that this war is the Rift War in 40K.


>It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life but "muh omnipotence and omniscience" is lacking more with every book they put out. They can't get rid of Dennis "Draigo" the menace. They're limited.

No, they are not limited. And it's the opposite. We have seen daemons who exist at the end of time.

As for Draigo, the a space marine "Silver Knight" confronted Slaanesh and was drowned by xir innocence.

Another giant Silver Knight who says that he became an legend in the Realm of Chaos was spotted in the WHFB End Times. He spoke with a funny accent and fire blasted from his forearm. The Knights heroics and self sacrifice ended with him being defeated twice by an army of Nurgle. Though, he is immortal somehow, the daemons left him battered, chained up, and impaled on rusted spear.

>>54297638
One affects my life, one is a poorly thought out world that exists to sell miniatures. Big difference, there.

>>54297565
The Chaos Gods are totally insane and prone to infighting unless they have a uniting figure and even then they will backstab each other. So no. For all their power, the Chaos Gods cannot defeat their own natures which makes then interesting villains.

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>>54297658
Not really, I've hardly found any of their romps or rivalries interesting. I find more interest in even the rather banal tales of the rivalries between greek gods, than that of the Chaos Gods.

>>54297641
>BUT I WANT THE HEROES TO WIN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

And you're on team "Chaos is bland and generic!"? Sad!

>>54297653
Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?

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>>54297678
>Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?
It can be as grimdark as it likes, doesn't change that it's not interesting, mate.

In general, its grimdark is also a rather annoying form of Melodrama. You know a setting's darkness is kind of subpar and ridiculous when a game series with consistent UFO endings provokes a greater feeling of emptiness and meaninglessness than an entire universe where a constant theme is that evil will win in the end, with hundreds of books under its belt.

>>54297678
>Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?
It doesn't have to be, its brand of "darkness" is just almost hilariously overdramatic and silly. You guys seriously take this shit seriously? I shudder to think of what your standards of fiction are. This crap reads like some game's excuse plot... oh, wait, it is.

>>54297678
>>BUT I WANT THE HEROES TO WIN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>And you're on team "Chaos is bland and generic!"? Sad!

Umm what? I never said that? I said I wanted tension, I want it to be tough on the heroes and a toss up between who could win? I don't want the imperium shit stomping everyone, I just want them to have a chance

>>54297678
>Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?
Are you legitimately insinuating you get existential dread from fucking Warhammer?

>>54297703
>>54297727

You don't like grimdark and that's okay. Why post in 40k threads though?

>>54297737
> I just want them to have a chance

That's every generic setting since the beginning of time.

>>54297747
No, but then I don't get existential dread at all. Do you, you big twelve year old?

>>54297360
Maybe Morty will be abandoned by nurgle and he gets purified somehow.

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>>54297737
The Imperium shouldn't have a chance since that would justify all the horrible shit they have done. It gives a bad message that man is above the consequences of his actions, above sin.

Lets face it. A race responsible for the creation of (picture related) doesn't deserve to win.

>>54297816
I wonder Carnac, was it a christian up-bringing or just an abusive father?

>>54297816
Oh fuck off with "omg so deep" bullshit.

>some guy killed some other guy
>WE DESERVE TO DIE

>>54297360
The truth can be harsh.

>>54297772
>That's every generic setting since the beginning of time.
Not really. Generic settings usually have the heroic force guaranteed to win, and they usually suck, lacking tension. Problem is, a story with a guaranteed bad ending also lacks tension - the question of "what will happen?" If you already know the inevitability of how it will end, it takes a lot from the experience for some. I'm one of these people, though generally I don't come to 40k for the long-term or the overarching story, I just find the setting often neat.


>You don't like grimdark and that's okay. Why post in 40k threads though?
Not him, but I usually post in warhammer threads because the setting does have a few strong concepts, and usually they're strong enough not to be tied down by the somewhat uninspired driving force of the setting. The Primarchs are occasionally written well in such a way that they can have legitimate depth despite the overall lack of deep vision in their setting, and that's why I just now came to this thread before seeing it became another setting loyalist versus naysayer argument. Do either of you guys have anything to actually do with your time? I'm just here because I'm waiting on a phonecall.


(Cont.)

>>54297887
>No, but then I don't get existential dread at all. Do you, you big twelve year old?
Classy insult, there, evidently it might hold salt though considering the person you replied to has deigned not to answer it. I don't experience existential dread but >>54297703's point is rather poignant, there's very little in the actual setting you're praising that truly evokes the feel of hopelessness and the emptiness of the world the characters find themselves in. The setting pretty much runs on melodrama and that's kind of its main selling point, and that's not a bad thing at all, the straight-played cheesiness of the universe adds a lot to its charm, even if it leads it to be never be seriously considered by actual literary critics or analysts. There's nothing wrong with 40k, it just has basically zero actual substance to it - but for what its purpose is, to sell miniatures, it's easily the best out there.

>>54297887
>>54297894
This.

For all the "horror" and "darkness" of 40k, fucking VtM is more horrific

>>54297858
The problem is that the daemon didn't just feed on just that one murder. That was just the start. The daemon birth set humanity of its dark path. The Emperor and the Cabal have tried their hardest to steer humanity away from that path but it refused. Humanity would not change. Humanity would not let go of their base desires and hatred.

And so...Chaos is what they deserve. As it was pointed to Girlyman, this is a cycle that kept repeating for millions of years. Countless races have been consumed by Chaos. Humanity is one small chapter in the great war against Chaos.

>>54297914
Again, you miss the point.

Some guy killing some other guy wasn't meant for the first murder alone, but in general, for all violence and war in our history.

>>54295555
>Why did he join Chaos?
he didn't join chaos, he joined Horus

>Its an anon attempts a deep read on a BL novel episode
Cringe.

>>54297887
>Not really. Generic settings usually have the heroic force guaranteed to win

Not at all. Heroic forces are almost always presented as on the back foot because people love the underdog wins.

>Problem is, a story with a guaranteed bad ending also lacks tension

Only if you know every step. DO you find your real life lacking in tension because you're inevitably going do die someday?

>The Primarchs are occasionally written well in such a way that they can have legitimate depth

Hahahahahaha. The Primarchs are deep now.

>>54297894
What point are you trying to make with this whole speel?

>>54297956
It's not a deep read though, it's surface level but somehow retards still miss it.

We're going full /lit/ pseudo intellectual critic in here and presenting opinion as objective observation I see. That's sad, I expected a bit more from teej than that. I expect that sort of smug self satisfied teenage cynicism from /lit/ but to find to poured so thickly in a 40K thread of all places...did you people get lost and wander in here by accident?

>>54297992
Whose the greater faggot, the faggot, or the faggot that all the faggots look at and say "wow you're a smug ass faggot", faggot?

Spoilers it's you, you smug faggot.

>>54297931
So you are saying that humanity mustn't be punished for a near eternity of bloodshed and woe? The First Murder is what inspired all the murders ever after. Look at the text. Drach'nyen touched the mind of every human being that ever lived across space and time, and the bastards of a race embraced its call.

>>54298009
At least I managed to bring your post back down to earth from that cloud of your own farts you were floating on, if only for a moment. But please, continue your pulitzer prize winning deconstruction of the setting featuring Iron Hands the Iron Hands and cockney monsters that believe things into existence. Stun me with your expert opinions.

>>54298069
>So you are saying that humanity mustn't be punished for a near eternity of bloodshed and woe
Pretty much, ye.

I don't call you a cocksucker cause your mom was one, do I?

>>54298071
>Game has funny elements and comedic relief
>It can never be deep and thought provoking

That post made ADB sad.

>MY TWENTY FIRST CENTURY WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES DON'T ALIGN WITH THIS, THEREFORE THE SETTING IS DUMB

>>54298094
My mom being a cocksucker would have consequences on my life and reputation.

Being from a race that embraced murder and hate, has dire consequence in the 40K universe. You seem to want man to be removed from the consequences of his action for some unknown reasons. That's not how things work in RL or 40K. In 40K, the Warp watches all and it responds to what it sees.

>>54298111
Uh huh. Now if we can manage to discuss those aspects rather than suck our own dicks going on some meta discussion about the blandness and artistic merit of the setting we'll be out of the weeds here!

>>54298111
It could be, but then you realize hacks like ADB are writing it

>>54298111
>ADB
I was wondering where all the chaos shilling in this thread spawned from. Guess that answers that.

>>54298134
>You seem to want man to be removed from the consequences of his action for some unknown reasons
Because I'm not a faux nihilist and I don't think the son should pay for the sins of the father.

But please, continue flagellating yourself for being human. If you do it hard enough maybe you'll become a daemon undivided like your idol.

Probably not the best place to ask, but are the Ahriman books any good? Thinking of picking up the omnibus.

>>54297598
If you were a dedicated 40kid, you would, because you would have the same masturbatory obsession over power levels that shonen anime otakus have.

>>54298161
I am flagellating 40K humanity, not RL humanity doe. There is no Chaos in RL as for as we know.

>>54298195
Yes, they are good. Provided that you are into the Thousand Sons, PLOT TWISTS, and Chaos.

>>54298195
They're OK, hope you like dimensions of just as keikaku though

>>54298161
>I don't think the son should pay for the sins of the father.

Very noble of you, but often the son does. And he does in the 40k universe.
Why does a setting become bad because part of it doesn't meet your own moral standards?

>>54298111
I never said WH40K wasn't worthy of discussion, it absolutely is, just not this high horse artfagging and dismissive cynicism that much of this thread has devolved into.

>>54298269
Because Carnac over here is arguing humanity deserved it because they commit murder :((((((.

Don't get it twisted.

I don't want to sound like /pol/ but I think some people here have an aversion to the morality of Chaos because they have some liberal real life moral code which doesn't apply in 40K. They don't understand that the 40K universe is a grimdark universe with its own form of justice that our modern day minds cannot comprehend. It's not designed to be fair for the inhabitants of the universe but it does achieve its goal.

>There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt.

>>54298315
>says people have an aversion to the morality of Chaos
>brings up an Imperial quote

Anyway there isn't anything about 40k's justice that our minds can't understand, it's just draconic and authoritarian

>Hates Tyrants, Psykers, Mutants and Aliens
>Joins the sides full of all of them
>Is Nurgle's goddamn hood ornament
>Spent thousands of years searching for his dead xeno father to torture out of some huge petty daddy issues

I respect even goddamn Lorgar more. He at least is now living it large in the worship of Chaos. In fact every traitor Primarch basically got what they wanted. Perty builds things infinetely, Magnus is big daddy sorcerer and slaps some wolves once in a while, Angron has his eternal war against daddy, Fulgrim is ass deep in Slaneesh and Kurze killed himself.

Every single one I could say got what they wanted except for Morty.

>>54298293
You should know by now that Carnac is a quasi-roleplayer.
.

>>54298293
Murder, genocide, torture, rape. You name and they have done it with abandon and glee.

Khorne is said to be the manifestation of EVERY single senseless murder and genocide in humanity's sad history. So when Khorne ravages mankind that is so arrogant and unrepentant, I cheer JUSTICE.

Remember it was humanity that failed the Emperor, not the other way around. The humanity of the Primarchs that damned them. Given a choice, humans will always choose their base nature over enlightenment.

>>54298371
>>brings up an Imperial quote

And whom do you think Chaos is reflecting? The T'au?

>>54298391
>keeps talking of humanity as a single being

Based.

>So when Khorne ravages mankind that is so arrogant and unrepentant, I cheer JUSTICE

Cringe.

>>54298405
Eldar, Orkz, other races, etc.

The thing would have been more interesting if the loyalist primarchs had been the traitor ones.

>>54298417
Actually, I am talking about them as an entire race. They are tied together by their sins.

It's right there in MoM, humanity collectively let the First Murder be the defining moment of their species. What a race of fucks.

>>54298433
No it wouldn't. You only think that because it's a shitty subversion.

>>54298431
Mostly mankind. When the Tau fought against the daemons in Arthas Molech, guess what language were they speaking?

They were speaking Gothic despite there being no humans around.

>>54298450
Yeah we get it Carnac, daddy wasn't there, mommy didn't love you, got bullied at school, etc. etc. No need to shout it from the rooftops

>>54298467
That's just retarded, seeing as it's established that they have their own language, or Ka'Bandha and N'Kari would be called Greg or Mary or something

>>54295555
Tell me about Mortarion, why does he wear the mask?

>>54295853
Russ isnt anywhere close to being the worst you beta

>>54298491
Going by MoM, they don't. It's just psychic emanations that the mortal mind mistakes for sound. Lets see if I can hunt down the text.

>>54297287
Same. Chaos has the potential to be interesting but the continuous chaos wank has just turned it into this really monolithic, predictable bullshit.

>>54298548
Ehhhh
>get sent to arrest Magnus
>got it boss AWOOOOOOOOOO
>open up with bombardment
>even reinforced with custodes and SoS would have lost if the Canis Vertex didn't blow up
>would have been rekt by Magnus if it wasn't for his wolves and a lucky strike
>get ambushed on the way back to Terra, have to be saved by DA
>get to Terra, Dorn begs you to stay and man the defenses
>nope I'm gonna go kill Horus AWOOOOOOOOOOOO
>get rekt
>get your legion massacred
>have to be saved by RG
>out of commission for the rest of the war

>>54298580
How would making it weak be interesting?
How is chaos wanked despite usually losing?

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>>54298568
Here it is. Daemons cry and roar out the concepts and emotions that created them. So the daemons Farsight fought must have been created by mankind. Mankind should account for like 95% of the daemons.

>>54298612
>How would making it weak be interesting
Don't have to make them weak just not that powerful.

Nids aren't weak either yet they're still interesting

>How is chaos wanked despite usually losing?

Bullshit.

Even when they lose it's "just as keikaku"

>>54298630
Yet the name drachnyen is said to be composed of the yells of the first murderer and victim, but exemplifies the concept of ends of empires.

So what, Cain and Abel were yelling out ends of empire?

Or rather, is ADB shit?

>>54298654
>Nids aren't weak either yet they're still interesting

How are Nids interesting?

>Even when they lose it's "just as keikaku"

No it's not.

>>54298685
>Yet the name drachnyen is said to be composed of the yells of the first murderer and victim

Where the heck is this?

>>54298694
I dunno, they are.

Or replace them with Necrons, if you prefer.

>No it's not
Yes, it is

>black crusades
>not failures, muh crimson path

>pandorax
>not a failure, got the psyker

>diamor
>not a failure, portal got opened

>blood crusade's incursion in octavius war
>not a failure, got dem skullz fo' Khorne

>Horus fucking Heresy
>not a failure, was supposed to die, Abaddon is the true chosen

See how tiresome it gets?

>>54298596
Wow you sound like a whinny fuck.

>>54298708
Start of the book somewhere I think.

How their cries mingled or something like that, might me misremembering

>>54298753
Or that novel where a normal human manage to kill a Lord of Change and it was revealed that Tzeentch just wanted to punish that daemon for being a lazy git.

>>54298775
See here>>54297816
It wasn't the screams that gave its name. Its the whole journey in the Warp as it was gestating within it.

>>54298612
I'm not saying make them weak, just downplay the "omnipotent allways winning super beings that totally don't actually need the mortals that birthed them" angle. It's kind of dumb to have a setting based on conflict but have a faction who by lore absolutely can't lose, especially one as boring as chaos


I personally think chaos could be much improved by making it ultimately self defeating, a parasite that will eventually kill its host and starve if left unchecked.
I also think that it would be cooler if it was less predictably awful and used the whole "warped version of human emotions turned up to 11" angle rather than just generic demons, but that's just me.

>>54297816
This is why I'm Chaos, because Man goes hand and hand with it. Should either harness it fully and subjugation of it like energy, or should be in symbiosis with it.

>>54298753
>I dunno, they are.

Oh, so no reason, you're just a faggot.

>Yes, it is

Nope.

>>black crusades

Never all failures outside of memes.

>pandorax

Not a total failure but not an outright win either, can more than one objective not exist?

>diamor

Same here.

>blood crusade's incursion in octavius war

Not declared a success or a failure, just something that happened. The Blood Crusade had no actual goal, it just showed up and killed shit.

>Horus fucking Heresy

This was the only one on your list and it was retroactive.

>>54298890
>It's kind of dumb to have a setting based on conflict but have a faction who by lore absolutely can't lose

How? That ensures that war can't stop.

>I personally think chaos could be much improved by making it ultimately self defeating,

But it is, just not in the way you want it to be.

>I also think that it would be cooler if it was less predictably awful and used the whole "warped version of human emotions turned up to 11" angle

It does that all the time.

>>54298901
>Oh, so no reason, you're just a faggot

Because I like the zerg.

>Not a total failure but not an outright win either

That's my fucking point. Every faction can suffer a devastating loss but only chaos gets to have pyrrhic ones

>Never all failures outside of memes

They weren't all failures but they sure as shit weren't all victories

>>54297992
>presenting opinion as objective observation
Look, cuntwaffle, you can, in all seriousness, take in the whole of 40k presentation and writing, and judge it according to the accepted standards of literature today.
No, 40k does NOT measure up as a literary giant, and that it needs to be said is what is really sad. It is good at what it is for, selling models and a setting, but it is not even half as good as it could be if there was some focus on competent worldbuilding.
As was said before, there is no dread that comes from Chaos, it will win, and it has been said as much from the word go. The interest is the dying light of heroes and underdogs.

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>It's another episode of carnacposting
>ZOMG Chaos is so deep, like, it's, like, the bad things we did come back to haunt us!
>"All factions have an endgame that can allow them to dominate the galaxy" is far less interesting than "Lolnope, Chaos has already won, nothing to do here anyway"

>>54298952
>Because I like the zerg.

It's okay we already have sufficient evidence of your faggotry.

>That's my fucking point. Every faction can suffer a devastating loss but only chaos gets to have pyrrhic ones

Pyrrhic is used to describe victories, not defeats. Plenty of factions gain from their defeats though. Look at Gathering Storm. Cadia fell but Cawl escaped with help enough to revive Guilliman.

>They weren't all failures but they sure as shit weren't all victories

And they're still not.

>>54299023
>>ZOMG Chaos is so deep, like, it's, like, the bad things we did come back to haunt us!

This isn't deep though, a retard could see it.

>>54299119
>Carnac
>calls others faggots.

Really jogs the noggin

>
Pyrrhic is used to describe victories, not defeats. Plenty of factions gain from their defeats though. Look at Gathering Storm. Cadia fell but Cawl escaped with help enough to revive Guilliman

Problem is, they are rare between. Chaos has every second one, and the largest Imperial victory, while pyrrhic, has been turned into a just as planned

>And they're still not

Yet even when they got repulsed he achieved his objective.

Chaos is by far the worst, least interesting part of 40k lore. It would be a much better setting without it, or at least without it being a major facet. It makes zero sense for anyone to turn to Chaos as it is because there's literally no upside. It makes even less sense for most of the traitor primarchs, and it would have been a lot more interesting to have at least some of them go renegade without "lol u fall 2 chaos your a demon now". The whole brother vs brother, sons vs father conflict is a lot less compelling when one of the sides was mindraped and turned into a giant baby raping hellspawn

>>54299190
>Problem is, they are rare between.

Nah, there's no problem. They're rare, even for Chaos. Fact is Chaos is one of the only factions allowed to lose enough to see them.

>Yet even when they got repulsed he achieved his objective.

Be more specific.

>>54299145
It was one of the points in this thread.
I mean, sure, our sins coming back at us is a nice start, but if you don't build upon it it's just 12-year-old tier of writing. I mean, most factions, aside from Orks and Tyranids can offer a more interesting backstory.
Humanity is humanity, the race that conquered the galaxy and became so technologically advanced they could go up against the creations of gods (As in, Eldar), only for their technology to overwhelm them and almost destroy them. But the Emperor came and sought to bring back humanity to it's former glory, but with the benefit of having learnt from past mistakes. But inevitably, even the Master of Mankind couldn't overcome humanities nature and is now imprisoned on the golden throne, while he can only watch as his empire becomes nothing but a twisted, perverted version of his vision. Not to mention that the huge Imperium gives plenty of space to tell a personal story.
Eldar once dominated the galaxy and were the height of civilization. But their powerful position led them to become lazy, arrogant and hedonistic, which was ultimately their downfall. Those who survived have split up in various groups. Some who seek to restore their former glory, some just want to survive. Most of them try to limit their own emotions and abilities so they don't repeat the mistakes of their ancestors, while others haven't learned anything from the fall, and continue the old ways, maybe even worse. And the latters actions even feed the very thing that destroyed most of their race and civilization back in the days.
And that's just to races, the Necrons had a trygic fate too, while the Tau are only starting to realize how horrible the galaxy truly is. But the Chaosgods and daemons? They're a mix of the kid on the playground that has more powers than you and is always better than you +1 and an edgy teenager.

>>54299197
>there's literally no upside

Besides, knowledge, power and immortality.

>>54299339
>>Yet even when they got repulsed he achieved his objective.
>Be more specific.
The first 12 Black Crusades, and pretty much everything where the Chaos troops weren't completely obliterated. It's always just "Chaos comes to planet, get almost destroyed by the Imperium before fleeing (HEAVY LOSSES on the imperial side notwithstanding) but they totally achieved muh secret objective because letting 90% of your warband and cultists die is a good price to pay to paint a dick on the cathedral of Saint Whoever".

>>54299495
>The first 12 Black Crusades, and pretty much everything where the Chaos troops weren't completely obliterated

Okay, since you refuse to be specific tell me everything you know about each specific Black Crusade and every other conflict in which every last Chaos follower wasn't wiped out. While doing so please highlight your greviances.

>>54299443
For a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny minority of people who become swayed by it. 99.99% of the time it's pure shit for whatever poor schmuck falls for it. It basically has to rely on pure trickery and nonsensical "well you felt angry one time so your soul belongs to Khorne" overreach to get anyone, because it has nothing to offer your average person.

Chaos is shitty and generically evil all the time, and you have to be profoundly shitty and profoundly stupid to think that it's even a remotely good idea to mess with, especially if you know anything about it (which is why knowing anything about chaos makes a demon instantly burst out of your head or whatever). Chaos is out to fuck you over 100% of the time, and behaves in a handful of predictably dickish ways every time to do so.

I think it would be a lot better if the chaos powers weren't this monolith of shittiness, and that they were actually chaotic as opposed to just fake Moorcockian chaotic. Different variations and views on the themes that the Gods represent that are all valid and all work and aren't all pure shittiness. Make it so you have no real idea what a daemon is going to do beyond a few broad strokes (Khorne demons do conflict, etc).

>>54299712
>For a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny minority of people who become swayed by it. 99.99% of the time it's pure shit for whatever poor schmuck falls for it.

Okay, but do they know that when they fall? No. I suppose that explains everything.

>>54299712
Something like this?
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/53827480/

>>54299433
>Humans
>Eldar
>Necrons

>They got good then they fell and now are not so good

10/10 origin stories.

>>54299775
Yeah, that's pretty cool actually.

>>54296096
He became a dick because like Lorgar he was not all that interested in the warrior business, he wanted to create instead of destroy, but only Robouwboaut Girlyman got that privelege.

Though I remember he was always cold and distant to his adoptive family, probably out of a sense of alienation.
But come the fuck on Pert, put on a smile for your bonus-dad!

>>54299023
Frankly, I'm much more okay with endgames like the Tyranids eating everything or the Orks genociding anything in-Orky than yet more Chaos wank.

>>54299433
I think Chaos is poorly written, like they're so objectively evil and kick-the-puppy bad all the time.

It's less about the concept of chaos and more about EVIL-GRIMDARK-WARRIOR-WITH-COOL-SPIKED-PAULDRONS!
Which is cool, I can totally dig a generic McBadDude with cool armour, but in writing you have to offer more.

I've read some books about the Night Lords, with a guy called The Prophet, which was a bit interesting.
He flayed people alive, with no remorse, but he made it sound like a chracter weakness on his part, like smoking too much.

>>54295555
What I believe the most important thing to be in all this is that nobody was "pro-Chaos" initially when the HH began (except probably Erebus, but man fuck that guy). Some of the HH novels bring this about very well in that they all want to take Emps down a notch but they don't realise they're playing the game of somebody else.

Morty here only consciously joined Chaos with a gun to his head. He could either drift in the warp and watch himself and his genesons rot in eternal pain, eventually becoming servants of Nurgle anyway in some respect, or join Pawpaw Nurg-Nurg right away and be released into realspace again to at least continue his fight. Up until that point, it was pretty much just "Yeah we got a bunch of people on our side with weird shit going on but we're the Death Guard and we're hardasses ready to fuck up that tyrant no matter what."

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>>54300068
Pic related.
>>54300191
>I've read some books about the Night Lords, with a guy called The Prophet, which was a bit interesting.
He flayed people alive, with no remorse, but he made it sound like a chracter weakness on his part, like smoking too much.
Night Lords by ADB, back when he was a cool guy. I recommend Lord of the Night too.
>>54300226
This. Most traitors began as "Yay Horus" instead of "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD"

>>54297643
>As Eldrad pointed out, the Cabal plan was bullshit and wouldn't have worked.

>Eldrad

He aint the best source though.

Chaos is phenomenally stupid and annoyingly generic. All the 'gods' of Chaos are embarrassingly one dimensional and the setting suffers greatly for it. Well, to be fair, there are tiny little snippets of lore about Slaanesh the Cuddlequeen and Tzeentch the Wizard of Hope. But if Chaos is supposed to feed on and reflect sapient emotion, it shouldn't be primarily shit-awful. It should be like 40% amoral impulsiveness/randomness, 30% 'good' things, 25% 'sadness' things, 4.99% 'hot-blooded' things and <.01% 'omnicidal rape torture' things.

It is both extremely boring that Chaos = edgy stereotype villainry, and completely unfaithful to the collective sapient psyche.

>>54295555
Brain damage

>>54301096
The chaos powers actively work to strengthen themselves.

>>54297772
>>54297816
From now on, every faction of good guys from fiction should auto lose cause its better? Fuck off, if theres no chance theres no tension or drama

You are a literal shit

>>54301096
Same. I also think the current lineup of chaos gods is a really goofy, awful selection even if you accept that the galaxy is awful. They represent a really stunted range of emotions, or in Nurgle's case, barely any emotion at all. I mean how many people experience "joyous acceptance of death via disease"? Certainly not enough to make him a fucking major power.
And if he's just "dispair" or "acceptance" or whatever, then why is his entire theme nothing but disease and rot? He's pretty clearly a very specific sort of feeling

>>54301325
Nurgle is despair but he loves life too and wants it to spread and prosper. Nurgle's favourite weapon/gift to spread despair is disease. Just like Khorne's Favorite type of weapon is the axe.

>>54301397
Still, it seems like a very, very narrow niche in what should be a pretty wide purview, but we never see any deviation from it. Disease is basically Nurgles only MO, not just his favorite one. It's really one note and kind of boring. I feel the same way about the other gods' shticks, but Grandad Pusbag is the most egregious imho. He just doesn't feel like he should be a major figure

>>54301283
>From now on, every faction of good guys from fiction should auto lose cause its better?

Who said that? Not all fiction should be the same, but we have more more fiction where good wins, so let 40k have Chaos as the winner.

>>54301559
It's called branding. You could make the gods a hot mess of everything but then they'd have no identity and miniatures would look shitty together on the table.

>>54296144
Literally Konrad Curze and the 2 unnamed Primarchs.

>>54302050
You can have aesthetic cohesion and not be absolutely one note. And that doesn't address the fact that happy plague man is kind of lame

>>54302190
>You can have aesthetic cohesion and not be absolutely one note.

They're not one note. There's plenty of distinctiveness in Nurgle minatures.

>that doesn't address the fact that happy plague man is kind of lame

That's a matter of taste, evidently lots of people like Nurgle.

>>54302012
>so let 40k have Chaos as the winner
40k is a setting, a HUGE galaxy full of multiple playable races, this is the 1 setting that 100% should NOT have a clear cut definite winner

>>54297211
I like the optimism of hoping that maybe the Orks will save the day

>>54302554
Yeah whats the implication of the orks that the eldar are discussing? Like what are they on about them for?

>>54302506
Why? It hurts your feefees? Tough shit.

>>54302611
No its just totally retarded writing to craft a giant setting with multiple playable races, and then outright state they will all lose and this single one will win because its totally random evil and powerful and can never die no matter what and can destroy the entire galaxy in one swing if it wanted

Like holy fuck its shitty writing, like I said ive no issue with the "good guys" being the underdog, but theres a difference between being the underdog and already being dead

>>54302656
Besides, the spiky boyz got Fantasy. I would like someone else (and with decent writing)

>>54302242
I meant more they're more one note in terms of themes and character. You can have plenty of aesthetic and even mechanical diversity on the tabletop and still be pretty samey from a lore/storytelling/role-playing perspective

>>54302682
This, make the Nids or Crons as big of an issue as chaos, chaos just gets boring with its totally unbeatable EVIL

>>54302656
>its shitty writing

How?

>like I said ive no issue with the "good guys" being the underdog

No one does you retard that's one of the most common tropes of all time. If you want that go watch the Mighty Ducks or the Karate Kid.

>>54302656
Dyng is not dead, dumbass. The setting is about a process which is frozen for commercial purposes. Imperium will never die IRL but it is doomed in lore. That was always the crux of 40k experience.

>>54302701
>make the Nids or Crons as big of an issue as chaos

It always comes down to Nidfags being upset that they're not the biggest bad guy.

>>54302716
So if I told you I was gonna DM a campaign, gave you a huge wealth of characters to pick from, let you build your own lore. Then at the very start id throw an enemy at you and say
>You can hold him off, but you cant beat him, throughout this entire campaign you will NEVER EVER beat him, and randomly int he campaign he will destroy the entire world so all your actions end up as nothing. Did I mention theres literally NO WAY to stop him ever and he can just end the world when he wants too?

It would be bullshit

>>54302748
What? Im not even a nidfag, just Nids and Crons the logical 2nd biggest bads behind chaos atm. Orks are more a constant thorn in the imperium and DE are too small scale. So yeah I feel those 2 should get some exposure

>>54302759
Sounds fine by me actually.

>>54302785
>What? Im not even a nidfag

Sure you're not. I'm the Pope btw and I feel the T'au should be the most powerful faction.

>>54302759
Dude stop replying the guy is a troll

>>54302826
Im literally giving you 2 factions there? Why are you randomly picking out nids? Jesus some people really just want imperium vs chaos

>>54298282
Well if we can't even artfag, why bother with anything?

>>54302845
>Why are you randomly picking out nids?

Because it's always Nidfags.
Once upon a time Cronfags may have been involved but not since Newcrons.
So I can say with some confidence you're not fooling me you dirty Nidfag.

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Daily reminder.

>>54302874
>Hey I think nids and crons should be bad guys
>Fucking nid fag
>What? No I just think they are 2 factions that could do with...
>NIDFAG!!!

Ok

>>54302952
the problem with that is TIDF's been a plague on this board for longer than ADB's time as meme author

>>54303032
>Nids should be the big bad! Oh and Necrons too I suppose. (Eheheheh how clever of myself they'll never know know)
>Desist, Nidfag.
>What?! How could they see through my cunning ruse!? Impossible! I'll get really defensive and prove that I'm not a Nidfag!

>>54302952
>carnac became the villian in order to save us
Almost makes sense. Why else would someone purposely act like he does?

>>54295555
Because Black Library literally can't write for shit, they're the literary equivalent of the Asylum movies.

He did it on accident

>>54295555
Fucking hell I'm reading the reasons for this now, so Mortarion hates all tyrants and those who would enslave others but he just sides with Horus because 'he felt more comfortable with him'? This is fucking sonic fan fiction tier.