>get bamboozled by everyone everywhere despite being the "smartest"

>>54114159
He was a smart beta loser with an autistic hobby and a fucking giant

/tg/ relates

>>54114159
Because Russ is a dick.

>>54114159
Not too versed on HH stuff, did he ever ask emps if he could help with whatever emps was doing?

>>54114179
>blaming Russ for Magnus' faggotry

>>54114179
Russ may have been a dick but Magnus was a retard, he was totally justified for putting Magnus down

>>54114232
>he was totally justified for putting Magnus down
No he wasn't because that was explicitly what he wasn't supposed to do. He just didn't know if and didn't question Horus, because he was a dick. Not 100% Russ' fault mind you, because why WOULD he question Horus - if anything, the more likeable and sociable right hand of the Emperor?

>>54114249
WRONG.

The Emperor stated in Vengeful Spirit that Magnus deserved what he got

>>54114249
>Horus - if anything, the more likeable and sociable right hand of the Emperor?
HERESY! BLAM!

>>54114279
>The Emperor stated in Vengeful Spirit that Magnus deserved what he got
Because Emps is a real dick and hates it when his tools start misbehaving.

>>54114279
>The Emperor stated in Vengeful Spirit that Magnus deserved what he got

Deserved maybe but that's still not what the Emperor ordered.

And in that case then doesn't the blame lay with the Emperor (just like everything else Primarch related)

>>54114298
Idk the emperor only started treating the Primarchs like tools in Master of Mankind kind of find it hard to believe he was that much of a dick when countless novels say otherwise

>>54114249
The Emperor literally gave Horus the authority to speak with his voice, Russ had zero reason not to believe him when he said orders had changed.

Prospero fucking needed to burn.

>>54114369
This. Prospero was a fucking mistake

>>54114344

Dark Imperium says his callousness was only revealed after 10,000 years of ascension to an astral form. While alive he would "deceive" and "allow others to believe" he cared and loved his sons.

>>54114159
Little Magnymagic is a failure in every way you can see him

magnus was a fool

ahriman, now, theres your tragic hero.

>>54114392
I read that. The Emperor called the Primarchs his sons several times, it wasnt until ADB got ahold of writing the Emperor that the "doesnt care for them" narrative started

>>54114447
He didn't just call them that, he fucking let Horus tear him to pieces because he loved his favorite kid that damn much.

>>54114459
What point are you trying to make?

>>54114467
>What point are you trying to make?
His point is likely that ADB is a chaos-loving hack trying to paint Emps in the worst light possible?
Or something. I dunno, I'm not that anon.

>>54114519
Thats the point I was trying to make. That anti emperor/peo magnus faggot is just shitposting

>>54114459
Not canon.

>>54114558
Literally the only cannon.

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>>54114558
>bill king isn't canon
I'll grant you the fact that it's excellent bait, but posting it this frequently is losing its charm.

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>>54114432
I hear that, perfect example of doing everything right and still losing in the end.

>>54114159
>How is this assclown a sympathetic figure again?

It's because GW created him to be a traitor long before anyone decided to give him a sympathetic backstory.

>>54114638
>>54114593
The IP manager has said it's not canon anymore. So deal with it.

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>>54114715
Next you're going to tell me the heroic sacrifice of Ollanius Pius is not canon as well.

>>54114740
>Next you're going to tell me the heroic sacrifice of Ollanius Pius is not canon as well.

>arguing that Bill King's story is still canon
>mentioning Ollanius Pius at all

>>54114558
>>54114715
>>54114764
>shit talking bill king

well fuck you too

His story about the siege of terra was the ONLY Horus Heresy we needed and he did it in a short story

30k was a mistake. the HH series was a mistake. Your birth was a mistake.

>>54114930

My point was that Bill King's story didn't mention Ollanius Pius. It was an Imperial Fists terminator that interrupted the duel.

>>54114941
Wasn't that retconned to be a Custodes?

>>54114740
>Next you're going to tell me the heroic sacrifice of Ollanius Pius is not canon as well.

Well it won't be when Garviel Loken stands in his place :^)

>>54114249

>he didn't question the literal warmaster
>he didnt question the person who commands with the authority of the Emperor himself
>this means Russ is a dick

Magnus got everything he deserved and Russ did nothing wrong

>>54114159

See, the thing about Magnus is that he's JUST smart enough to be very stupid. He's the man who is SO SMART that he does dumb things because he thinks it's for the greater good.

The whole attack on Prospero is basically like this.

Magnus knows he's fucked up. So he sits back and awaits judgement, and does everything to stop his sons from fighting. He basically goes "Okay Russ, I'm right here. I surrender."

He doesn't go up into space to meet Russ's fleet, because he doesn't want to die. Instead, he's hoping Russ will come down to apprehend him. He doesn't know, however, that Russ is going to start bombarding the planet on bad information.

So Prospero is fucked, and Magnus still doesn't want to fight. He's thinking that "Look, it's better if we all die. If we fight back, Chaos gets the advantage. If we fuck up the Wolves, the Emperor might lose the big battle to come."

The thing is, he doesn't want his homeland and his sons to be destroyed, either. So when his sons go to fight the Wolves, he hopes for the best and expects the worse. Obviously, Russ wrecks them, and the sight of everyone he knows and loves - dying horribly - spurs Magnus to action at last.

But by then, it's too late. Russ fucks him up, and Magnus has to make a deal with the devil to get everyone to safety. It's not that Magnus doesn't KNOW he's damned, it's just that he has no other options.

Magnus has a glimpse of The Big Picture, but it's not enough. And that's why he's sympathetic: He really is doing this for everyone's good. He sees magic as a kind of neutral force to be channeled. He does not know that the source of all magic is malevolent and actively fucking him over.

>>54115129
Can 100% see this happening out. But on the other hand I think lokken may be the character abadon was sperging out about in gathering storm.
Maybe it's horus aximand, I can definitely see him being loyalist again.

>>54115288
This is why Ahriman is the better sympathetic character because he tried his damnedest to save his brothers and planet while Magnus was moping, then tried to save them all from the mutations and what did he get for his efforts. Dicked over by Tzeentch, most of his brother are dust at his hands and banishment with the only hope of redemption being a lost library in the webway.

>>54115402

Yeah, but Magnus didn't do the Rubric because he knew it wouldn't work. His hands were effectively tired.

You're not moping if every solution is an awful one. The thing is, Magnus has a vast amount of knowledge, and it's knowledge about how fucked his situation is.

Ahriman's solution was effectively "Look, let's nuke ourselves. That should cure our cancer." while Magnus was like "What? No, why the fuck would you do that? You can't cure cancer that way!"

Good tales all but the sympathy sort of evaporates when they both turn around and start sucking that chaos cock hard in a sort of WELL IF I'M DAMNED ANYWAY MAY AS WELL BECOME MEGA GIGA DAMNED AND ALSO DAMN AS MANY PEOPLE AS I CAN AROUND ME AND SLAUGHTER THE INNOCENT HAHAHA

At some point they made the choice, rather than embracing death, to embrace chaos and make it their master

>>54114159

he's the Jeb Bush of the Heresy. He failed at everything he tried and ended up losing his shit.

Magnus is a mess

>>54115587
It's the tragedy of a loving but troubled family member who gets into drug abuse and becomes intolerable. Chaos is a hell of a drug.

>>54114159
Magnus is a great example as to why all the Primarch should've died during the Heresy.

>>54116549
It's not confirmed but sort of hinted that all the primarchs that fell to chaos (except for Horus) sort of WERE planned to be temporary/used up

>>54116554
to elaborate, we know that the Golden Throne was originally meant for Magnus, who was going to be the Beacon while the Emperor finished the human webway. Given what it's done to the Emperor, this likely would have killed Magnus outright, though not as quickly as it did Malcador.

Angron was always intended to be an attack dog judging how the Emperor just did not give a fuck and left the nails in his skull

Pertuabo was kind of overlooked and ignored even before Horus started doing it on purpose

>Lorgar
lmao

>>54114159
Anyone ever noticed this guy looks and dresses like a fucking Oni?

>>54116640
it's the red skin

>>54116662
He's like the mix of Balor, Oni and Ogre mage. Or something.

>>54116631

That's not actually right.

See, sitting on the Golden Throne was never in fact a problem for the Emperor. The problem is holding the Webway Gate shut, so that daemons don't break through. The Emperor is perfectly fine being the Beacon (i.e. the Astronomicon). What caused him a lot of strain was preventing the invasion of Terra.

If Magnus had become the Beacon, he would actually be more-or-less fine. Malcador died because - you guess it - he was keeping the daemonic hordes at bay when the Emperor went to fight Horus.

>>54116702
Well, he is literally designed after Balor, who of course had one eye and iirc red skin

>>54115211
Magnusfags dont understand chain of command. They are literally mental midgets

>>54115402
Yeah, torturing and immolating that innocent remembrancer was totally justified and sympathetic...

>>54117916
So all those Nazis and other war criminals throughout history who were only following the orders of someone higher up than them are blameless despite international courts claiming otherwise, got it.

>>54117977
You are implying Russ committed a crime, he did not

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>>54117977
Thanks for proving my point faggot

>>54114740
>Next you're going to tell me the heroic sacrifice of Ollanius Pius is not canon as well.

We will see when we arrive there in the HH.
The Horus Heresy books is the ONLY canon. Deal with it.

>>54119214
>black library
>only canon
They are barley canon as it is.

>>54119264
Cry more bitch nigger

Things that Magnus did wrong:

> Murdered up to 2,000 slaves so that he would have enough psychic power to send a message to the Emperor
> Made a pact with the daemon-gods of the Warp that Horus now served to warn Emps of his betrayal, even though he could have just sent several ships or gone himself to Terra
> Cast the spell so that he broke the wards surrounding the Webway, forever turning the portal by the Golden Throne into a two-way swinging saloon door of shitfuckery that kept Emps nailed to the Golden Throne and prevented him from stopping the Horus Heresy when it started
> Broke the Edict of Nikaea, like, instantly, therefore qualifying him as a traitor to the Emperor's will
> Taught his entire Legion to use daemons of the Warp as batteries and familiars, thereby accelerating their fall to Chaos
> Didn't immediately fall on his sword when Russ arrived, possibly sparing his children by surrendering
> Ordered his Thousand Sons not to resist when the Wolves attacked, leading to a terrible and uncoordinated defense of Prospero, all but guaranteeing the deaths of everyone on the planet

Things that Leman Russ did wrong:

> Followed orders

I don't like the Space Wolves or Lemon Pledge at all, but Magnus the Red deserved to be executed.

Really, the Thousand Sons as a whole should have been discontinued like the 11th and 2nd Legions. They were too unstable to survive without sorcery, and even with sorcery they're kind of doomed.

>>54114179
>>54114249
>>54114315
>>54117977
I love when transexual sons faggots claim Russ disobeyed orders when the warmaster told him to fuck Magnus up, yet they ways forget this:

>"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

>>54114159
He's a nerd in a medium there the target audience are nerds.

>>54114159
Not the smartest but the most educated. Magnus was making the worst choices for the right reasons all through his character arc. He was played like a fucking fiddle though. And I don't understand why he is seemingly cool with blue bird after being his trophy for ten thousand years.

>Russ did nothing wrong
Magnus is often characterized as arrogant but no one is worse than that uninspired trashbag of a furry that only thinks with his testosterone.
I love vikings as much as anyone, but the fact that the viking primarch turned out like russ is a fucking disaster.

>>54121377
Russ is one of, probably the best fleshed Primarchs

>>54115333
The character abbadon sperged out about was Guilliman, thats why he personally went after Cawl right after he found out what was happening. They failed because the eldar showed up, Guillimans back, and Abbadon is too booty blasted to leave the eye of terror

>>54114159
He's not supposed to be.

Other-thans who have been ostracized by society for being "different" identify with him and feel sympathetic, but strictly speaking Magnus was ultimately the cause of every single one of his problems for believing he knew more than he did or that he knew better than others. If he had listened to the many and countless warnings from nearly everyone around him, he would not have been tricked by Tzeentch into fucking up the webway.

>>54120267

You seem to be either horribly misinformed, or are a false flagging space yiff fanboy.

> Murdered up to 2,000 slaves so that he would have enough psychic power to send a message to the Emperor

Things the emperor does daily for 500.

> Made a pact with the daemon-gods of the Warp that Horus now served to warn Emps of his betrayal, even though he could have just sent several ships or gone himself to Terra

Now I know you haven't read the books. Magnus didn't (willingly) draw on chaos to try and reach the emperor. It was also explained why he didn't want to leave such crucial information to chance.

> Cast the spell so that he broke the wards surrounding the Webway, forever turning the portal by the Golden Throne into a two-way swinging saloon door of shitfuckery that kept Emps nailed to the Golden Throne and prevented him from stopping the Horus Heresy when it started

Was a big mistake, but that wasn't his intention and he had no idea what he was doing would cause that.

> Broke the Edict of Nikaea, like, instantly, therefore qualifying him as a traitor to the Emperor's will

Emps was in the wrong on that one.

> Taught his entire Legion to use daemons of the Warp as batteries and familiars, thereby accelerating their fall to Chaos

They, again, had no sign of the threat.

> Didn't immediately fall on his sword when Russ arrived, possibly sparing his children by surrendering

Wasn't gonna happen.

> Ordered his Thousand Sons not to resist when the Wolves attacked

You're gonna shit on magnus regardless of what he does, huh?

>I don't like the Space Wolves or Lemon Pledge at all, but Magnus the Red deserved to be executed.

t. King Yiff

>>54114159
Russ is the one responsible for Nikea, if he wasn't such an austist about honour none of it would have happened. And he was only to happy to jump at the opportunity to kill magnus. Because he was shamed by magnus not hurling his men into meat grinders and actually caring about his ksons.

>>54123690
MAGICAL FENRIS WOODLAND SPIRITS! NOT WARP! TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

>>54119264
HH is the canonest of canons there are. Is so canon that is a category on itself.

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>>54119214
>Black Library
>Canon

>>54115288
The 1k sons and magnus were using rites involving human sacrifice to fuel their ambitions of power long before russ got the kill word. Magnus alone is the reason the rift below terra is real and humanity is in fuckhuge desperation in 40k.

Magnus was compromised by tzeentch when he was but a child.

>>54123672
>Magnus didn't (willingly) draw on chaos to try and reach the emperor.
This literally and objectively happens. The wards around the Imperial Palace are too strong for Magnus to break, a giant warp presence rears up behind him and offers him more power to break through the anti-warp wards, and Magnus accepts the power without a single backward glance.

>>54123672
tl;dr Fagnus

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>>54123672
The emperor only has to sacrifice psykers because Maguns fucked up lol. Magnus literally is the worst thing to ever happen

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>>54124140
>The 1k sons and magnus were using rites involving human sacrifice

>>54124348
Read A Thousand Sons faggot

>>54124377
Read it and just ignore that the spell drained the life out of 2,000 thralls just to power it? I'm looking at the book right now, you nonce.

>>54124405
What the fuck are you even arguing then jackass? Magnus clearly killed innocents by your own admission

>>54123672
>Magnus didn't (willingly) draw on chaos to try and reach the emperor.

>Then he felt it, the familiar sense of something titanic moving the the swells around him, a continent adrift in the ocean with ancient sentience buried in its aetheric heart. Infinite spectra of light danced before him, more magnificent than even the most radiant Mechanicum Borealis. Even to one so mighty as Magnus, the flaring eruption of light and power was incredible.
>Its communication was sibilant, like sand pouring through the neck of an hourglass. It had breadth and depth, yet no beginning and no end, as though it had always existed around him and always would.
>It spoke, not with words, but with power. It surrounded him, offering itself freely and without ulterior motive. The Great Ocean was truly a place of contradictions, its roiling, infinite nature allowing for the presence of all things, good and bad. Just as some entities within its depths were malicious and predatory, others were benevolent and altruistic.

Reminder that Roboute Guilliman, the most reasonable of the primarchs, with the benefit of hindsight and about a hundred years to contemplate it, thinks Magnus was in the right.

>>54123672
>>54124497
continued:

>Contrary to what most people believed, there was uncorrupted power here that could be wielded by those with the knowledge and skill to do so. Such gifted individuals were few and far between, but through the work of adepts like Magnus, it might yet be possible to lift humanity to a golden age of exploration adn the acquisition of knowledge.
>Magnus drank deep of the offered power and tore his way into the golden lattice. He felt its shrieking wail of unmaking as a scream of pain. Without a second thought, he flew into the shimmering passageway, following a route he knew would lead to Terra.

So that's Tzeentch offering power to Magnus, Magnus reminiscing about how EVERYONE ELSE is wrong about the Warp, and taking it without any thought toward what Tzeentch might want.

He was a fucking idiot.

>>54114447
Wrong. The Emperor doesn't care started back when Angron's origin was first written.

>>54124443
Oh, that was a sarcastic post. I was arguing AGAINST the T-sons apologist.

>>54124500
Fucking wrong

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>>54124500
Guilliman knows Magnus was so fucking wrong that it's implied he's suppressing his own psyker potential just so he doesn't end up like the boiled lobster man.

>>54124554
The Emperor wants closers, why would he care about that loser Angron?

>>54114159
He did nothing wrong. All blame lies squarely at the Emperor's feet. Everything that Magnus did was for the Emperor and for his Legion. The Emperor made a demi-god and treated him like a grunt.

>>54124915
Apart from the human sacrifice discussed earlier, bargaining his soul to Tzeentch, assuming the emperor's 30k years of experience weren't worth more than his hundred, and literally everything else he ever did, I agree with you.

>>54114159
>smart
naeh he was just a nerd with an autistic obsession that others did not care for.

>>54124915
The Emperor wanted Alphas like Russ, Dorn and Horus. Instead he had asscliwns like Magnhs and Lorgar

>>54123690

>Russ is the one responsible for Nikea, if he wasn't such an austist about honour none of it would have happened.

Literally wrong faggot, go read Scars.

Russ didn't even push for an official ruling for sorcery. It was entirely Mortarion who petitioned the Emperor multiple times to kill the librarius- he'd been trying from the moment it was created.

Russ was only there to serve as a witness for how much of a faggot the 1Ksons were being.

>>54114392
Dont forget that Emperor cast away his loving side when battling with Horus. That explains why he became so cold towards everyone.

>>54125382
Wrong, not only does the IP manager and the previous editor said that the William King's version is retconned, Girlyman saw the memories of the Emperor in their full context. He had NEVER at any point did see the Primarchs as his sons and he never loved them.

>>54125431
>Thinking BL is canon

>>54114159
>>fuck up everyrhing forever
THAT WAS LOGAR GODS DAMN IT!!!

10000% convinced beta nerds are the only people defending Magnus at this point. I'm sure it covers betas, social justice warriors, people with severe mental illnesses (especially Trans) and people who sucked at sports as well.

Any normal human being can see russ did nothing wrong.

>>54125431
Source?

>>54125363
Reminder that Mortarion is actually the one who did nothing wrong

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>>54126062

>>54126479

Isn't the Emperor's mind fracturing in the Warp, and becoming more and more unstable? The thousand or so minds that make up him are breaking away?

Also, did the Emperor ever love anything or anyone?

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>>54114391
I agree, but I've always thought it was the definition of reach exceeding grasp.
Colchis was a backward shithole and it's culture was what delivered lorgar to chaos. Prospero was a culture of dense psyker population and even with psudu-demon super predators destroying their dark age society we have no evidence they were corrupted by chaos. If anything while under magnus's stewardship we have piles of evidence of the kind of culture I think the emp intended. But too much, too fast.
Maybe that was the nature of its corruption; that Magnus was shaped into the weapon to pierce the imperial Fenway in such a place. But the romantic in me thinks Magnus reveled in learning and andancing the species. Desperate even given his earlier actions to save his legion. One of the few if only traitors who genuinely felt affection for his gene sons.
But this is 40k and a beautiful ambitious thing like Prospero has burn me written all over it. I just prefer tragedy over just as planned

>>54125864
Not sure if poor falseflag or actual Space Yiff fanboy
Poe's law to the max

>>54126392
Mortarion did literally everything wrong, he's the biggest fucking failure among the primarchs

>>54116631
The Emperor cared about the Nails. But since he couldn't remove them without killing Angron, he figured that even a somewhat impaired Primarch was better than losing a third one.

>>54124799
>He hefted the weapon thoughtfully. The firelight danced in his eyes. How it burned was a question of the
warp, not of science, for all the machine trappings on the blade and in the hilt. His father had been gifted
in both, more so than any other man. The sword resisted Guilliman’s attempts to learn its nature, and he
would not release it to any other agency for study.
>For these arts, Magnus had been censured. The retaliation for a warning sent in good faith had created
another terrible foe. Another miscalculation on his father’s part – only a human could make so many
errors.
Guilliman flat out thinks the Emperor fucked over Magnus.

>>54114159
>Emperor explicity tells everyone to NEVER EVER play with warp shit
>Magnus plays with warp shit and fucks up Emperor's webway project so profoundly He ends up having to abandon the whole endeavor
>Russ is sicced on Magnus, fucks Magnus up

But guuuyyyys, M-Magnus did nothing wrong! R-Russ is a jerk!

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>>54114159
>>get bamboozled by everyone everywhere despite being the "smartest" primarch
>by everyone everywhere
By this do you mean the literal god of JUST AS PLANNED that the Emperor told you doesnt exist?

>fuck up everyrhing forever
Pic related. Goddamn the webway project was retarded. Its not like breaching the webway is impossible Necrons do it so why set it up on the fucking throne world? Dark Eldar dont allow psykers into the webway for a fucking reason that shit can get breached easily. So the Emperor built a backdoor into his giant fortress and blames Magnus for opening it. Nevermind the reason that he did was justified.

>>join the side of Horus even though he is the one responsible for you getting BTFO
Magnus doesnt have much choice after Prospero. None of the Daemon Primarchs do.

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>>54129135

>>54128988
>For these arts, Magnus had been censured. The retaliation for a warning sent in good faith had created another terrible foe. Another miscalculation on his father’s part – only a human could make so many errors.
Emperor BTFO.

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>>54129135

>>54120267
>Things that Leman Russ did wrong:
>Followed orders
Except he didnt? We know that Russ chose to follow Horus's orders over the Emperors. Valdor was there telling Russ exactly what the Emperor wanted and still Russ ignored the Emperors wishes.
Russ wanted to kill the Thousand Sons and Magnus and didnt care about the consequences. The Meperor wanted Magnus on Terra to hold the webway portal shut so that he could fix it. Horus played Russ's hatred to get him to stop this from happening.

>>54129233
The Emperor could not walk the path of heaven. The Khan was right. Magnus and the Emperor were all fools who trod to heavily and lost there footing.

LEMAN RUS WAS THE TRUE HERETIC
MAGNUS COULD HAVE STAYED LOYAL

>>54129318
Horus speaks with the authority of the Emperor. Horus supersedes Valdor in the chain of command.

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>>54129475
>Has the actually orders of the Emperor in his hands along with the chief custode and his detachment of SoS all saying this is what you Dad wants
>Follows the orders of the guy who he was warned had turned traitor instead
MUH CHAIN OF COMMAND

>>54115288
why are you spacing sentences like you have down syndrome?

>>54129533

please fuck off from /tg/ with your gobshite /pol/ meme

you are not, and will never be welcome here

>>54129518
None of the Custodes or the SoS protested and all of them knew the content of Magnus's message. Heck the Emperor knew and he sent Russ anyways.

>>54129564
>None of the Custodes or the SoS protested and all of them knew the content of Magnus's message.
Yes they did. Constantly? Are you in denial or have you not read the fluff?
Valdor spent most of the battle of Prospero trying to get the TSons to surrender. And it was said that Valdor and Russ constantly bickered about Russ not following the Emperos orders?

>>54129558
not /pol/, spacing every fucking sentence in its own line is first grade bullshit and makes the poster look like an attention whore. suck a mean dick

>>54129587
>have you not read the fluff?

Yes.

>In his astral scryings, Magnus learned of Horus’ nascent treachery. The Warmaster had been seduced by the Dark Gods. Aghast, Magnus projected his consciousness to warn his father as he created his great works upon Terra. In doing so, he damaged the Emperor’s sanctum beyond recovery. The Emperor, enraged, did not listen, and banished Magnus from his sight. He then ordered Horus to unleash the Space Wolves, capture Magnus and bring him to Terra in chains. Horus instead told Russ to bring utter devastation to the Thousand Sons. The war that followed was apocalyptic.

-Wrath of Magnus

Horus was guy the Emperor assigned to deliver the orders to Russ. No custodes nor SoS would disobey the Emperor's orders handed by the Warmaster.

>>54129676
I suggest you go read Inferno for the latest fluff that covers Prospero. Expecting to understand all the events that lead up to the Burning of Prospero from a blurb in WoM isnt enough.
These >>54129518 are the orders Russ received from the Emperor Anon.

>>54129725
Inferno is written from an in-verse perspective so its a less trustworthy source. I mean for fuck sake the writer didn't have any idea what Magnus did to invoke the censure. She is clueless on the matter.

WoM outright says that the Emperor sent Horus to deliver the orders. So any change in the orders is on the Emperor.

>>54129725
Latest fluff is from the Imperium I index, which explicitly says that the Wolves were deceived into attacking Prospero by Horus, who altered the orders the Emperor gave him. Russ followed instructions he had literally no way of knowing weren't the Emperor's wishes.

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>>54129779
>Inferno is written from an in-verse perspective so its a less trustworthy source.
Yes and? Inferno covers the entire build up and conclusion of Prospero. Are you really going to say that a small contradictory blurb in WoM better explains the entire process than a book dedicated to explaining what happened?

>>54129795
POE or retard? Impossible to tell.

>>54129824
>Muh Forgeworld
Is lesser canon than a main-series rulebook. If they contradict, main books take priority.

>>54129824
Yes, omniscient narrator > in-verse historian (who has record of omitting stuff and making mistakes).

MoW and 8th ED lore says that Horus handed the Emperor's orders to Russ.

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>>54129844
The Chaos index says exactly the same thing. Emperor orders Russ to bring Magnus to Terra. Horus Sends his own orders. Russ follows Horus's orders against what the Emperor wanted.

>>54129877
Denial this hard is suffering to argue against.
>Heres the evidence
>Doesnt counts because reasons
Fun.

>>54129904
That passage you posted proves you wrong, retard. Russ followed the orders of the guy literally appointed by the Emperor to speak with his voice, who changed the orders.

>>54130018
Lol. I'm guessing to you the appended means the Horus scribbled over the orders where it said
>Bring Magnus to Terra
To
>KILL NERDY RED MAN
Its the exact same story but summarized anon. Or are you saying that the Custodes and SoS didnt go to Prospero? I mean they're not mentioned there so they can have been right?

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>>54114159

>furfag defense force
Russ be a gud dog dindu nuthin

>>54120482
>doesn't want people to worship him as a god
>writes down shit that sounds like it came directly from the bible

The Emperor everyone

>people claiming BL isn't canon

If gw puts it out, it's canon. Even if they say that Cato sicarious walks into the warp, beats khorne to death with Nurgles wife Isha, the fills all of Slannesh's needles with nurgle rot, beats tzeentch in a game of chess in 2 moves, makes the silent king speak, ressurects horus, becomes Sanguinius, cures the black rage and makes it back in time for evening firing rites, then it is fucking canon .

>>54128988
So, does GW employ any writers who weren't beaten by their dads?

>>54130831
I was under the impression that the lore of this universe existed to help people come up with interesting armies to play, not to help unwashed losers win pointless arguments on the internet.
But sure, even though they've said multiple times that canon is a very soft concept to them, sure, it's all canon.

I like the thousand sons and no one can stop me

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>>54131317
Thats because Ahriman is the best character in 40k

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>not to help unwashed losers win pointless arguments on the internet.
Where on this gay Earth do you think you are?

>>54119214
>>54119264
from what I remember everything is canon till a codex directly contradicts it, so chances are the HH books aren't going to be overturned anytime soon since I doubt the forgeworld books will contradict this stuff much

>>54131044
I mean the problem is at this point the emperor's been so wholely characterised as an impossibly short sighted prick even someone without daddy issues can't really write him as something else, his hipocracy, callousness and poor foresight are basically canon at this point unfortunatly.

>Magnus fault
Daily reminder that the Emperor just had to clue Magnus in about the "Himalazian Webway Airport" and problems would be not.
But considering that he probably wanted to use the guy as a battery for his golden chair, in the end the Emperor was planning to screw Magnus sooner or later. The guy didn't give a shit over the primarchs in first place. Remember, he kept his mouth shut about the his project just to avoid the navigators, fucking navigators to bitch about their privileges and fears. He didn't told shit even to the primarchs.
So how one can blame Magnus if he didn't know shit and was to be screwed anyway to be used as a living battery?

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40k is going to be less thematically consistent because its a scifantasy kitchen sink setting made over 31 years by many different authors. You can't violate a setting that was made to play pretend with metal mens representing your jedi inquisitors leading space dwarf bikers against double hell worshiping guitar knights on a planet made of rainbow hue skulls.

>>54114189
Yeah in the first thousand sons book. Emps even tells him about the webway project because Magnus finds his own acces way on some backwater planet.

>>54134413
Proof?

>>54130484
That was probably a formal, State pronouncement. That was the least of things. We're talking about a guy who used functionally immortal super soldiers
wearing baroque armor being lead by giant demi-gods wearing even more baroque armor crossing the galaxy in even more baroque giant ships.
Also the same guy was a giant guy wearing a baroque golden armor with a giant flaming sword and called himself "Emperor" and who lived in a continent sized palace.
Not "First Citizen", "Mr President", "Director".
Hard for the average joe or even a demi-god general to not think as such kind of guy as not a god.

>>54128224
>I just prefer tragedy over just as planned
If only black library realized that works so much better

>>54129725
>Inferno
Is that a book from the HH? If not NOT CANON.

>>54134433
Do you want a screenshot? I am not sure what consitutes proof on here. It is in a thousand sons.

>>54134668
Hasn't gw at some point stated codexes always superseed black libarary books or somethings? I always though BL was the lowest possible canon. Or is the HH serie somehow different?

>>54134701
Copy paste or a page number so I can read it would be nice.

>>54134668
Inferno is the latest FW btw.

>>54131068
Once is formally written is canon, is not difficult to understand.

>>54133345
HH Books>any Codex

Does this really needs to be pointed out? Codexes are to play with, Books tell the fluff.

>>54133408
Well, yeah, except...
By the bs logic used by this thread, all you need is like three authors in a row to write books portraying him as not an asshole, and changing events so that they happened differently and are no longer his fault, and Boom! Canon's changed.
The people sperging out about their wolf-fag overlord being mistreated would suddenly be really happy, and the people demanding that canon that is described BY THE EDITORS THEMSELVES as soft-as-all-fuck would instead be the ones freaking out about how terrible BL is.

>>54134571
They try. I mean they flesh out a lot of pointless interaction that muddied the waters but they leave some breadcrumbs.

For example, and I know it's not the most beloved of bl books, but Praetorian of Dorn has the ingredients in Alpharius. Sad their tacticool super secret fuckery stifles it but I got some interesting heartbreak vibes from the ending confrontation. Alphy maybe genuinely wanted to find a 3rd option from his dealings with horus and the conclave, and his realization that keeping too many secrets kept him from knowing his brothers when it counted most. He died like a fool after trying for a master stroke. And Omegons loss of his other half might be the complication that breaks the camels back in a way. Maybe. Well see. Could be 100% wrong. But it's tragic to see motivated intelligent characters get dicked over by their flaws and far more relatable than "you lost before you even began mwahahahah"

>>54135623
Alpharius is not a tragic figure, he's a Magnus-tier idiot. At the height of the great crusade, when mankind is roflstomping all the xenos species and carving their future into the galaxy, a bunch of xenos contact him and their message is basically "You need to wipe out your own species and leave us xenos alone,"and rather than show ANY loyalty to his own kind, he just replies "Hokay!" and dives straight into trying to engineer humanity's extinction.

Because some aliens told him that Humanity would only have 10k-ish years of peace and then collapse. Ten thousand years of peace and dominance in the galaxy wasn't worth anything to Alpharius, so he decided to side with chaos to try and wipe out humanity.

>Magnusfags will ignore that Magnus repeatedly provokes Russ into kicking his ass
Literally all Magnus had to do was not be a dick to Russ. But he failed at that just like how he's the biggest failure of all time.

>>54125023
Russ is a beta that thinks he's an alpha. I'm not even talking shit, there. That's just how he's written.

Russ needs an authority to serve, even when that authority has him doing things he despises. He serves the Emperor utterly in all things because he knows the Emperor is stronger than him and he just can't countenance standing up to him. Russ's main plan to deal with multiple Primarchs going rogue was to get a more powerful man, Guilliman, to take charge. When he's cut off from all higher authorities, Russ needs his captains help to make up his mind. Russ is not his own man, and he knows it and hates it.

Russ always get's exposed hard when he tries to front against a true, no-fucks-given alpha Primarch like Lion.

>>54134719
It's in book 2 chapter 16 page 599 or 600. I am reading from a epub app but that's where he says it and I quote:
"Do you know what he said Ahzek? Do you know how he greeeted this momentous discovery, this key to every corner of the galaxy?" "No, my lord" "He knew," said magnus simply. "He already knew of it. I should not have been surprised, I suppose. If any being in the galaxy could know such a thing, it would be my father. Nwo that he knew I had also discovered this lattice, he told me he had discovered it decades ago and had resolved to become its master. This is why he returns to Terra"
Exucse spelling I can't exactly copy paste it

>>54136811
Is this news to anybody? He is litteraly the emperors loyal dog how much more beta does it get. Emps just had to pimpslap him once to get him in line when they met.

>>54114159
He's not Leman 'Wet Leopard Growl' Fucking Russ. That right there is a start anon.

>>54127580
Likely Malcador
>mfw BL establishes that the Emperor was a faggot with Malcador and likely trans

>>54136542
You're going awfully one dimensional here and with the lack of detail we get in the alphas motives I can understand it.
Even so it's pretty obvious that while the cabals revelations bother both of them, we never quite see if they buy into is 100%. Hell maybe they didn't even trust each other's judgement after this as we see them actively dicking each other over.
Point is I put them in the same boat as maybe jaghati; they looked at the structure of the new imperium and smelled tyranny and oppression. Difference is J valued peace and gave the benefit of the doubt out of loyalty. A&O valued instability and doubted everyone because that was how they achieved victory. It's not about right and wrong. It's seeing how trying to do the right thing can fuck your whole world over if you lack context. In the alpha legions case it's the extreme vice of using trust as a weapon and this never seeing any other use for it.
But really mate doesn't it kill your enjoyment to reduce characters to such a simple mindset? Like I said I could be 10p% wrong but I like to he and make sense of it. And human motives and failings fit the bill better imo

>>54137187
>But really mate doesn't it kill your enjoyment to reduce characters to such a simple mindset?
I didn't reduce anything. A coalition of the xenos species mankind had been destroying told the Alpha Legion to wipe out humanity instead, and they just believed them. The species that stood to directly gain from humanity not fucking them up.

It's one of the two reasons I can't stand the Alpha Legion.

The other being that their entire shtick would work better just using human operatives, and so they are wasting their entire plethora of post-human enhancements. When someone gives you 100,000 8ft superhumans who can punch through concrete and deadlift a car, the most efficient use of them is NOT to sow political discord and use subterfuge to destabilize governments. The most efficient use of them is to shoot shit in the face and then tear it in half.

It's like finding out in the middle of a warzone that you are as strong as the Hulk and deciding the best use for that strength is for you to leave the country to be a wandering poet. It's such a waste of useful resources.

>>54129795
So, the Emperor, receiving a warning that Horus turned traitor... demanded apprehension of Magnus, send the orders to... Horus to relay to Lemon Rusty?
Really the best humanity has to offer. For a guy who thought the primarchs to being tools... he was awfully trustful of said tools.

Only retards think that Leman Russ ever did anything wrong, especially when you consider that Leman Russ is a bastion of virtue and goodness. He's literally the only one willing to fight when everyone else are too weak, chicken or corrupt to try anything. He's right, and everyone who opposes Russ are wrong.

>>54114159
Before this thread I thought the whole "Space Yiffs in Denial" thing was a joke. Holy shit it isn't. In no way was Russ EVER anything other than a furry loser who had to pick on his weaker brother to fellate his ego enough, because he couldn't find a wolf big enough to fuck on Fenris. Even fucking Alpharius could beat Russ with a good bit of planning. But the Space Yiffs still eat it fucking up.
Sure Magnus was a fucking nerd and a loser, but at least he tried doing things other than kill civilians, burn libraries, and cry to Dad when someone called him a mean name.
Magnus' biggest issue is that he's a nerd who fucked up trying to help, then not helping solve that fuck up
Russ' biggest issue is that he didn't freeze to death as a baby.
>>54137405
The Xenos didn't tell Alpha Legion to wipe out humanity. They told them that if either the Emperor or Horus one, Humanity was fucked beyond repair.

>>54137540
That right there is Matt Ward 'GULLIMAN IS EVERY SPACE MARINE'S SPIRITUAL LIEGE!' levels of faggotry anon. Either that or some of the worst bait I've ever seen.

>>54137414
He kept Horus being traitor quiet so that Russ wouldn't charge off like a tard and the Imperium wouldn't descend into anarchy, and sent Russ to apprehend Magnus. Horus got to Russ(Who again,didn't know he was turned) and changed his orders.

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>>54137540
>Furry
>Did nothing wrong

>>54137405
I see the point you're making, but that seems more a gripe with the setting; do you take issue with the raven guard being tacticool sneaky insurrectionists? Or the salamanders having a fire fetish? Or the world eaters going full barbarian? Etc etc people think the legions and primarchs were built to fit a number of purposes and roles, I like to think the alpha were imagined as an inquisition esqe counterespionage group, but they went full retard and didn't serve anyone beyond themselves.
That being said they absolutely did not trust the cabal or buy into their kill humanity save the galaxy pitch. They took the info they were given and tried to make their own outcome. Daring complicated and selfish for sure. But not as basic as you're stating.
They serve the story better to me as a lesson on paranoia and the nature of trust. For all we know omegon was/is trying to keep humanity on top. At least a version that wasn't fondled to death by chaos or ground to golden powder by big E. Maybe they are wrong, they certainly fucked up. But their skillset and motives are more interesting if taken beyond the face value of anonyminity issues and derpy suicide pacts with xenos

>>54137580
>The Xenos didn't tell Alpha Legion to wipe out humanity.
Yes they did. They said the only way to beat Chaos was for Horus to win, because that would eventually wipe out humanity and starve the 4 of their food source. They told them that humanity had to die to save the universe, and Alpharius and Omegon just nodded and said "Sounds legit, what do you need us to do?"

>>54130087

The point is that Russ didn't receive two orders, according to the text you cited. The operative word is append. He only received one order, and it was the one Horus altered. This doesn't mean that RUSS DINDU NUFFIN, but it does indicate that he was following orders.

>>54137580
>Sure Magnus was a fucking nerd and a loser, but at least he tried doing things other than kill civilians, burn libraries, and cry to Dad when someone called him a mean name.
That's funny, because Magnus has never done anything but purposefully fuck shit up and being a general asshole on purpose.

>>54137637
>if taken beyond the face value of anonyminity issues and derpy suicide pacts with xenos
So if taken beyond the canon thus far?

And I don't resent the Raven Guard, because they sneak in, fuck shit up, and leave. They don't spend years destabilizing a government so that they don't have to fight a war when they could take the planet in three days. They don't actively avoid combat.

The Alpha Legion's methods are overly elaborate so that they can gloat after. The Raven Guard just sneak in so they can Space Marine all over the place inside the enemy's house.

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>>54137724
Still better than Russ

>>54137733
I can't quote book and chapter but the alpha legion does not throw their lot in with horus to ensure his victory. They play the field.
In deliverance lost they lie about the nature of their mission to screw over the RG. Hoping to get that sweet pre-primaris patch Geneseed. Chaos fucks them over. Omegon sends a suicide mission to fuck over a weapons/logistics project called vital to horus's strategy. Fucks over his brothers plans.
The raven guard are just as damaging to infrastructure and population as the aplhas. Difference being alpha insisted on working mostly alone and seemed to enjoy too much of the action of destabilization rather than the actual outcome.
They were always less efficient as a fighting legion but could and did do things beyond the capability of most.
I'm of the opinion their nature was too far into antisocial habits to actually benefit the imperium, but yes canon backs the opinion that they didn't go all in on wiping out humanity.

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>>54136811

>>54129220

>this is what MagFags actually think happened

>>54134323
>So how one can blame Magnus if he didn't know shit and was to be screwed anyway to be used as a living battery?

Because all he had to do not fuck absolutely everything up was follow orders.

>but muh battery

Too fucking bad. The Emperor created all the Primarchs for specific purposes- they are literally tools. Magnus' purpose was to be a battery. Oh well.

>>54137187
>You're going awfully one dimensional here and with the lack of detail we get in the alphas motives I can understand it.

>please don't use the fluff we've actually been given to deduce that Alpharius is a retard. Why can't you just make up scenarios and assumptions like I do and give them the benefit of the doubt?

>>54114178
/thread

>>54137637
>That being said they absolutely did not trust the cabal or buy into their kill humanity save the galaxy pitch. They took the info they were given and tried to make their own outcome.

Which is why they're stupid.

What they should have done with that info is realize that these are fucking xenos, completely ignored the info, killed all the xenos and then gone right back to doing loyal great crusade things. The idea that your enemy coming to you and predicting that you'll lose in 10,000 years is credible information is insane.

It's part of why I don't understand all these pseudo-intellectuals begging for nuance and "muh tragedy". Tragedy and layers-of-grey doesn't make the story better, it makes it worse. The story makes alot more sense when the motivation for Alpharius going trader is that he was just ass-hurt at the Emperor and loyal primarchs constantly riding him about the inefficiency of his methods. The moment we get plot-elements about "well maybe he was justified" the entire story turns to implausible shit.

>>54139863

*traitor

>>54137540
While this image hasn't survived, old fluff had Russ as one of the more beloved primarchs as well as an intelligent commander. The Leman Russ was originally named after him because of his work with the imperial army and because he helped develop the replaceble identical parts system they use.

>>54139946
>>54139863
Both these things kinda show the older simpler fluff really didn't need to be made into some authors fanwank to be intresting.
Black library's biggest failing seems to be that they wanted to make the setting into something that wins new york times awards instead of just scifi pulp.
I would much rather take the crimson fist novel over shit like master of mankind after I read both

>>54139973
Hence people getting pissed about them making Bill Kings short stories non canon. That was grade a stuff there.

I've said it before and I'll say it over and over - as have many others - 30k and the HH novels were a cash grab and a fucking disaster for the narrative

Because he's literally the only living being who managed to come out of the Horus Heresy better off than before, by a long fucking shot.

He's also the least chaotic Chaos prince in existence, and is basically taking advantage of Chaos to become powerful enough so that he can just fuck off and read books for the rest of his life without being disturbed by his retard siblings.

>>54137540
Leman stop shitposting on 4chan and go back to your fucking chapter. It's been like ten thousand years and they're going feral.

>>54139744
>Who cares they want to enslave you!

Are you serious?

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How has nobody posted this picture yet?

>>54140078
That's wrong. Magnus was shattered in both mind and soul and had to piece himself together two times.

The piece of him that has his loyalty, love, and compassion (basically all the nobility and good in him) was lost forever. Magnus now is utterly bitter and evil, obsessed with revenge and the extinction of mankind.

>>54140453
>The piece of him that has his loyalty, love, and compassion (basically all the nobility and good in him) was lost forever. Magnus now is utterly bitter and evil, obsessed with revenge and the extinction of mankind.
This is exactly what he wants people to think so they'll leave him the fuck alone and let him read in peace.

>>54140453
Its implied that it may have incarnated as a Grey Knight.

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>>54139782
Made up no scenarios man. Seriously just stated things they actually did while also admitting they ultimately made the wrong calls.

Are you just in a fighting mood?

>>54139863
Craving nuance and depth in a story. Yes you are right those are sure signs of terrible taste and poor understanding and not at all respect and enjoyment of a universe that due to scale makes thousand year brushstrokes and handwaves.

Also, psudointellectualism. Will never stop hating this word. Ffs man were debating the finer points of the backstory contrived to sell plastic miniatures. It's all subjective with some details given by the ip owners and contractors. It sounds like you prefer a stripped down non-fat setting with clear cut lines. And that's fine. No umbrage. But no need to lash out when people like something with a different bend. They are still traitors. They are the bad guys. Some folks just like to puzzle out the whys and hows

>people arguing Magnus is either right or wrong, barely any mention of the fact that Tzeentch arranged his destiny and it isn't really Magnus or Russ's "fault"
>arguing about whether or not black library is canon
>arguing about whether or not the codexes are canon
>arguing about A&O being wrong or right based on trusting xenos who were actually trustworthy
>no mention of A&O's less debatable failings of overcomplicating things for the sake of things
>no mention of the xenos being potentially retarded for trusting a vision from the warp which may or may not be twisted by tzeentch dickery

Sure are a lot of retards in this thread

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>>54140972
Everyone's so quick to judge and insult. I actually raised the question of if Magnus was purpose built on Prospero to fuck up the human webway. Totally possible. I just prefer the gods be opportunistic forces of nature rather than omnipotent assclowns.
As for the cabal. We get some interesting looks at other advanced races. Trust aside that was kinda neat. Except they kept company with and were also fucked over by Eldrad. So not sure how much stock I give their wisdom.
I feel like I'm repeating myself but we just don't have the details on the brothers Greek and their motives. What I've been inferring is they have massive antisocial leanings and a curious definition of trust.

I love the setting and characters, so I just try and take what we're given and make sense.

Magnus for example, is much more relatable and sympathetic while also damnable and villainous than lorgar.
Fucks sake I can justify emps being despondent after mag fucked his meta and not really caring about the details but I will NEVER understand how he didn't take one look at colchis, erebus, and korpharon and not angronnap the golden pussy while exterminatusing space Jerusalem (i.e. a desert shithole responsible for a stunning amount of humanities pain and suffering)

>>54140357
Wow it's almost as if the Emperor knows best about how the primarchs' purposes should be and that his purposes for them would be the least painful outcomes for them all. Who would have thought?

>>54141667
>Being a pawn is the least painful outcome.

One, fuck no. Even if it was, he had a right to rebel.

Two, Emperor DOESN'T know best, thats the point. He was fallible and wrong.

>>54142285
You play chaos right?

>>54142285
With regards to not being a retard about using the warp, the Emperor knew best.

>>54140509
So,Kaldor Draigo is Magnus?

>>54142347
Nikaea almost left the legions defenseless against the powers at the warp. The Emperor did not know best.

>>54139995
>Hence people getting pissed about them making Bill Kings short stories non canon. That was grade a stuff there.

Thanks to 40K's unreliable narrator problem, I still consider them to be canon. They're a bunch of faggots who have their heads so far up their own asses that they really believe their vapid trash is better than anything from Ian Watson or Bill King.

>>54142328
I play Scions

>>54143144
No. Voldus.

>>54114159

Magnus is not the smartest primarch. That title goes to Guilliman, or possibly the Lion. Magnus is the most skilled at sorcery. Very different things.

>>54144195
Magnus did more than just study the warp he was just driven to that because he was the greatest psyker among the Primarchs. He was one of the few scholars among them and perhaps the only one that didnt focus their attention on war. Not to say he was the smartest however thats literally impossible to judge. Few other however spent as much time as him searching and protecting knowledge during the Great Crusade.

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>>54144563
>perhaps the only one that didnt focus their attention on war

>>54144604
Are you thinking of Lorgar? Because the only list he tops is Worst Primarch.

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>>54144604
Launched a holy war of creed cleansing on his home planet. Gave it back to chaos anyway so still. Shit warlord. But more one than maggy

>>54146099
What? Who are you talking about?

>>54146176
Lorgar. He grew up drinking chaos lite and used visions of the emp coming to launch a jihad and conquored his planet. Before he was this mopey intellectual whipping not he was a self appointed messiah of a insurrection cult.
And after all that he still had chaos festering in his closest circles

>>54130484
>"I AM NO GOD" The ten-foot tall giant clad in face-laden gold armor spoke directly into our minds, golden light forming a halo behind his flowing hair as he stared us down with piercing white eyes.

>>54146572
I mean, he has to have a distinctive unique appearance in the universe of Warhammer 40k so that the normies can actually take him seriously.