>Players roll up a wizard, a druid, a psion, and a bard >And

There are if nobody in the group informs them about it. It's not like the system is self aware enough to inform you, they keep on pretending things are balanced and forcing the fanbase to make up the difference.

>>54102671
Tiers are for queers.

Is this the bait thread?

>>54102671
>Current year
>Playing 3.5
Get on with times, grandpa.

>>54102715
well, it's one of them

>>54102720

Being fair, PF is still played a lot. And I can understand why, the appeal of the system despite the mechanical clusterfuck you have to wade through to make it work properly.

Slightly off-topic but seeing how the edition is 3.5, what happens if two Cancer Mages (yes those ones) fistbump each other?

>>54102671
In what part of the manual talks about these "tiers"?

>>54102936
Go to YouTube, type "falcon punches colliding"

>>54102955
A manual exterminatus, I was looking for something along the lines of "sphere of annihilation" but that'll work.

>>54102740
What's the appeal of 3.PF?

>>54103067
If there has been one the last 5 years I fail to see it.

>>54103067
It's still the most popular system out there. Draw your own conclusions.

Don't listen to trolls like OP.

>>54103104
>He thinks a fighter can have fun in a group like that

>>54103067
Easy to find a group.

>>54103104
I'd like to know why it's still the most popular

>>54103123
It came out early and secured its own brand.

>>54103104
Pathfinder was overtaken by 5e a little while ago.

>>54103067

As someone who doesn't like the system overall, it still has a huge amount of cool content available for it, interesting mechanical systems like the Tome of Battle/Path of War stuff or various interesting third party magic systems, along with lots of magic items and an extreme depth of character customisation.

None of that stops it being a bad game, but it's possible to make it a good game with enough work on the GMs part. Still, that the GM can fix it doesn't absolve the system of blame or criticism, especially when huge chunks of the aforementioned content are also bland, shitty or nigh on non-functional.

>>54102671
>pathfinder
Fiddly numbers, autistic rules, stupid balance.

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Another caster v martial thread? Cool! Time to post my homebrew version of DnD, which fixes the balance issues between casters and martials. Please give it a look if you need help with this issue.

>>54103236
OSR barely has that problem to begin with.

>not telling the players what type of game your playing
>no season zero
>not giving them chargen guidlines

Pretty lazy dm

>when you stand still and full attack every round
This is what it truly means to be a fighter. Trolls wouldn't understand.

>>54103271
>season zero
You plan on running an entire campaign before they reach level 1?

>>54102671
Are there still people out there playing such wildly imbalanced games that playing in the same 'tier' is necessary to have an enjoyable experience?

Nigga how are you STILL playing D&D 3.x

>>54103104
5e is the most popular system.

>>54103668

3.PF is still huge

>>54103685

Being fair, 5e doesn't entirely remove the problem. The power gap is mostly gone, but the utility gap out of combat, and the lack of interesting martial choices in combat still kinda sucks.

>>54103565
>not starting your players off as shitty commoners trying to survive in a harsh world and having their first class level be based on the choices they made before session 0

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>>54103937
>Not playing Dungeon Crawl Classics

>i only play 3.butthurt edition which stopped being a thing years ago

>>54103705
5e doesn't entirely remove it, but it fixes it to the point of playability. Martuals have more skills, and a Wizard doesnt have the spell slots to solve every problem on his own. In general, theres also fewer gamebreaking things, and its pretty obvious when somebody tries to go for them.

>>54103104
Nice non-answer, faggot.

>>54103972
Good job, you just called the massed fans of the most popular roleplaying game of all time a pile of butthurt idiots, and like they would all play something else if they were as smart as you. Quit being a bitter contrarian and realize no one cares about your shitty hipster games.

>>54104042

>argument from popularity

>>54103976
Fighters and barbs have the same amount of skills as wizards you are right that caster supremacy isn't as. Ad though

>>54103976
>>54104072

Yeah, 5e deserves credit for improving things, but it still bugs me that both in and out of combat martials have less interesting things to do, especially since the playtests showed they had ideas of how to make it better.

>>54104042
Good job, you just called the massed fans of the most popular religion of all time a pile of butthurt idiots, and like they would all believe something else if they were as smart as you. Quit being a bitter contrarian and realize no one cares about your shitty hipster religions.

>>54104042
The people who still play it are, in fact, butthurt idiots, though.

>>54104116

I wouldn't say that about all 3.PF fans. Just the idiots who go around on /tg/ calling anyone who criticises their system 'trolls'.

>>54104057
So if it's as shit as you anti-D&D trolls claim, why would it be so popular?

>>54104087
Yeah, but they playtested with a bunch of OD&D Luddites and grognards who complained about martials not being as barebones as they've always been. The Battlemaster's maneuvers were supposed to be universal, for instance, but the playtesters they got shot that down and they relegated it to a single archetype.

>>54104192
Monk even was nerfed, they had better hit die and damage. And now for no reason is the lowest dpr martial, and relegated to be a stun gun and that's it

>>54104192

As well as being nerfed to hell, which fucking sucked. Especially when the broader playtest fanbase surveys said the exact opposite.

>>54104192
I thought that pretty much everyone in the playtest said they loved martial dice?

>>54102671
>Are there still people out there that don't know about tiers?

Yes. There are still people that are either too ignorant, or blatantly ignore 3.Pf problems.

>last week
>playing a Sorcerer
>Rest of the party is a Cleric, a Druid, and a Monk.
>fighting pirates on their ship
>Cleric is doing great, Druid and I are casting a custom spell the DM gave us.
>Basically a Create Wave spell
>The three of us dispatch most of the pirates easily
>Monk has been Flurrying for 5 rounds
>Most miss and he's been taking heavy damage
>Out of 12 pirates, he kills one, casters either disabled or killed the rest
>Monk:"Great work, everyone."
>Cleric (That Guy): "Yeah, great work spending all that time killing ONE pirate. Why'd you play a Monk, anyway?"
>Monk:"What do you mean, Monks are the best class in the !"
>[Insert 30 minute argument as to why casters are inherently better than Monks]
>Monk player refuses to believe this
>storms out in a huff.

They apologized to each other a few days ago, but the Monk player is still playing the Monk, refusing to play anything else or even recognize that he's sub-optimal in this party.

>>54104182

Excellent marketing from a dominant market position, defining what RPGs were for a generation and making a lot of people who play it very loathe to depart it, partially due to the significant amount of time and investment it takes to actually get good at the system.

>>54104218
>>54104229

It's funny how pretty much everything wrong with 5e is everything about it that makes it more like 3.5

>>54104233
Except the vocal minority, and wotc heard them

>>54104218
To be fair, being a dedicated stun gun is pretty powerful on its own. I just wish they could do fucking anything else. Although I did try the Kensei and it seemed to play alright in terms of DPS.

>>54104267
If you follow the rules it doesnt deal more damage. I bet you think you can punch and hold your kensai weapon at the same time, am I wrong? well, you can't

>>54104265
Way of the world anon. People who get a product/service and enjoy it generally don't bother speaking up to praise the business. Why bother, they're doing everything right already.
But if someone receives poor service/quality, they speak up more often.
In any given sample of feedback on a product or service, the values are already skewed simply by the human nature to only speak when you feel you have been wronged.

>>54104311
They fixed it with a second revision so that its a monk weapon.

>>54104347
Yep, but now you can't use weapons that allow GWM, now longsword, woo, so powerful

>>54104371
Meh. The class is just generally under powered, but most certainly not to a point where you'll be dragging your party down at all unless you fall for the Way of the 4 Elements meme.

Why are you playing a monk in 5e?

You're better off just playing a two-weapon fighter, then fluffing it as a monk, since it's blatantly obvious that the devs hate monks and want to crush them into the ground

I mean, how much must you hate something to see it already be the weakest option in your entire game, and then, in your first errata, nerf it?

>>54104042
Oh please, Pathfinder only came about because people's reaction to 4e was "ABLOOBLOOBLOOOOO WERE ARE THE RULES FOR ROLEPLAYING I CUNT DO ANYTHING ABLOOBLOOOBLOOOOOOO" like the fucking casual scum they are.

Make an intelligence roll before responding to me, because you might not be smart enough to refute this point.

>>54104433
My fav is still sun soul

>>54103118
>combat is the fun part of roleplaying games

>>54104493
>He thinks fighter can have fun outside of combat

>>54104470

As someone who likes 4e and dislikes PF, I don't think that was the entirety of the appeal. As much as I like 4e it is a system which makes a few different fundamental assumptions that some people don't enjoy, creating a different game experience. I'm not quite sure how D&D was actually providing that game experience, but that's neither here nor there.

So Pathfinder catered to those people in addition to the screaming retards, giving them a system that was just as inappropriate for what they wanted, but inappropriate in a familiar way that they knew how to work with and tune to do what they liked, which lead to them mistakenly calling the system good when they were all playing their own custom version of it.

>>54104493

If you've got a combat system, it damn well should be fun. And if you're dedicating a significant chunk of your system to combat rules, then implicitly you're assuming that combat will be a large part of the game.

Also, as >>54104517 notes, it's no better out of combat.

>>54104233
They did, except Mearls who was probably still assravaged that the fanbase made him buff the fighters and make them fun.

>>54104603
It is sort of embarrassing that the class called "fighter" has the least amount of choices to make when actually fighting out of all the basic classes in 3.5 and PF

>>54104636
How many ways can you honestly swing a sword that's as in depth as spellcasting though?

>>54103067
Be a god walking the earth by level 5.

>>54104636
Except for Battlemaster, which is easily one of the strongest classes in the game. Fighters are only shitty when you play Champions, which are a meme and, to a lesser extent, EKs which are dedicated tanks and are meh.

>>54104636
Special attack modes and weapon damage types just to be more impactful in combat. Out of combat, just let them pick a social ability, and give them access to knowledge history and suddenly they have some value outside of combat as well.

>>54104667

As many as the designer can imagine. Which, if they're not a fucking hack, should be way, way more than D&D (outside of 4e) manages.

>>54104678

This isn't about strong, it's about boring. Battlemasters are still very limited in choice due to the retarded post-playtest nerfs to their resource pool.

>>54104667
Ohhh so many ways, as long as you build the game to handle it instead of, well, how 3.5 works

>>54104678
I said 3.5 and PF, not 5e, the 5e fighter is a different kettle of fish

>>54103937
>Giving them choices at all when the setting supports the practice of males following in their fathers footsteps and females wed off for dowry and any conscription into combat forces would be decided by their king/duke/lord

>>54104678
Oh yeah, you get to be fun for one turn and then have to take a short rest while defaulting to mashing the A button to swing.

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>>54103236
this is broken on my end right?

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>>54104678
>>54104727
Oh sorry, misread

>>54104667
Ask Song of Swords.

>>54104087
The key for me about 5e is that spells are no longer the sole deciding factor in power. A Rogue or Paladin is much more useful to have than a Ranger or Sorcerer, for example.

>>54104667
Maybe not to the same depth as spellcasting, which is almost limitless, but there's a fuckload more there than what little the D&D guys know.

You can swing or thrust, for the absolute basics. These would do different amounts and types of damage, which have their own qualities. Next is adding in hit locations. You can swing or thrust for different locations, each with their own reasons to be targeted. Third is differentiating between weapon types. It's harder to defend against a flail than a sword, and a hooked spear allows for grappling at a distance, that sort of thing. Then you can get down into gritty details for how a weapon is held, techniques, and stances.

>>54104909
Paladin is a much of caster as a Ranger, so explain me that point again

>>54104910

You can also get plenty of ground through accepting a reasonable level of abstraction, considering it as part of the flow of the fight rather than just the attack. Moving an opponent around or hindering their movement, imposing a temporary attack or defence penalty, forcing them to keep their focus on you or turning them away from an ally... Those are all things that could be built into the core combat system as default options people have access to, conceptually, and in some non-D&D systems functionally.

>>54104944
The fact that they have equal amounts of casting, but one is trash while the other is great?

It's not like the core of 3.of where you can neatly track a classes power level based upon their spell progression.

>>54104909
I get where you're coming from, but spell are still a huge deciding factor. The paladin is good because it is strong with the potential to cast spell and the best Roguish archetype is the one that gets spellcasting. In 5e spells aren't everything, but they are a lot.

>>54104909
The 5e bard is objectively superior to the rogue.

>>54105042
And the weakest monk archetype is the one with the most spellcasting, and the Ranger is bad because it's weak and the ability to cast spells doesnt make up for that.

Spells are no longer a garuntee of power, and that's what counts.

>>54105042
The power of arcane trickster compared to the other rogue archetypes is mostly due to the retarded idea that 5e runs on where you're expected to do 8 or 9 combats per day, more than twice as much as what happens in the vast, vast majority of games

>>54105061
Except when it comes to damage, unlesd you do one of those handful of broken effects I mentioned that, again, are easy to see coming a mile away

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>playing games with character classes

>>54105096
Bards can gain a second attack if they go with the college of War (I think that's what it's called) path when they gain their third level.

>>54105061
I agree that the bard is superior, but the rogue still has some ups against it. The rogue uses less resources to deal damage and has better survivability without resources. Its burst damage is also generally better and can compete with the other martial if it abuses attack outside of its turn.

>>54105142

Class based design is not implicitly superior or inferior to non-class based design, it just has different traits, strengths and weaknesses.

>>54105146
Woah two attacks? Crazy.

Still trash damage compared to a Rogue, especially once you get to higher levels. 2 attacks without any of the sort of bonuses other martial classes get isnt that useful.

The only way to have a Bard that does damage well is to abuse the fact that you can take Swift Quiver. Which again, is very is to spot and account w

>>54105217
Bard can use GWM, rogue not really

>>54104250

>DM allows the casters to use a custom spell.

>DM isn't giving the monk custom abilities to make him more relevant to the group.


This is why caster wank needs to be culled.

>>54105444
A Bard needs to invest a lot into strength for that to be helpful, and it still doesn't put his damage on par with martials.

>>54105444
Rogues can utilize sharpshooter and crossbow expert, though. That and the get an extra ASI so they can use both and not sacrifice in terms of stats as much.

>>54105510
The worst thing about 3.5 is that it spread the mindset of "martials must be realistic, casters can break all the rules"

>>54105649

It's not the origin of that stupid double standard, but it can certainly be blamed for proliferating it.

>>54104265

The only outsiders WotC brought in were Grognards to begin with (RPGPundit and Zak S). It's pretty clear that whoever had the most political power at WotC at the time wanted 5e to be grog edition, some foolhardy editors tried to fight the power and lost.

>>54105800
Considering Mearls was lead developer, I have zero problems believing this is what happened.

>>54105823
In sageadvice Mearls seems like a nice guy while Crawford is a fuck martials fun faggot

>>54105823
>>54105870

I have always wondered about this, since Mearls was behind Iron Heroes back in the day. It was an interesting idea, a martial focused version of D&D trying to make mundane combat cool and interesting, even if it didn't work well in practice.

>>54105870
Mearls also buys into the "warlords literally shout hands back together, and that's silly" meme that people who never played 4e spout all the time

>>54105964

Well, that's more wilful stupidity based on the whole 'HP=meat points' thing, which D&D doesn't help with its ridiculously inconsistent design.

>>54104760

Holy shit yes. I don't know what happened or how to help you.

>>54102955
>looked it up
>related videos, Falcon punch fails
>Figure, "what the hell, why not?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzrxPjpbEaw

And I'm reminded why soccer is an inferior sport. Or at least, the worst soccer player is FAR inferior to any other worst player, limp-wristed fucking pansies.
>A butterfly brushes past their shin
>"OH MY GOD! I'M BLEEDING OUT!!!"

Why do they not call these fuckers out and ban them from games for this shit? Not from the sport, (unless its habitual) but just penalize them for acting like they were punched by an ork because another player ran past and farted near them?

>>54107070
Iirc, they mainly act overdramatic like that on the off chance it gets the other team a penalty.

Not that it really excuses that.

>>54107415
This is probably why Hockey barely slaps you on the wrist for getting into a fight. Not to keep limp-wristed players out, but to stop dramaqueens trying to win by meta-gaming.

>>54102671
I don't really give a shit, but Bunk's the man.

>>54104760

Looks like whatever OCR was used shit the bed.

>>54103104
Because 3.5 players got mad at 4e and basically bought Pathfinder because it was 3.5 HD REMIX.

>>54104517
>He doesn't know how to RP, two of the important letters for the game.

>>54102720
>playing any dnd that isn't 3.pf
why

>>54115016

Mostly because 3.PF

>>54115016
I want to have fun with friends and not spend half of each session slogging through over 9000 rules

>>54104760
You can't expect to fix the caster supremacy without throwing away a bit of your sanity along the way.