>DM makes an NPC tsundere >other players think she's

Tsundere is just a flowery way of saying bitch.

They're also trash.

>>54059767
You have to establish the fact that she cares a little bit really early on, or yeah, she's just a bitch.

When you read or watch something with a character that is outwardly treating someone like trash for several episodes/chapters/whatever it's okay because you are separated from it and the emotional payoff of a character showing a soft side will carry you. Players in a game get their first impressions of a character in the first session the character appears. If they don't like the character when they first show up, they may never like the character. The time between sessions, the length of sessions, and the fact that the players are personally interacting with your NPC rather than just reading or watching make it so the impressions stick and it's much more personal.

>>54059767
tsunderes are endearing when they alternate between cold and warm
if people dont like the person, and in most cartoons the tsundere is in fact disliked at first, its because they emphasize the tsun not the dere

people like tsunderes because having a softer more caring center adds some depth to an otherwise 1-dimensional to a generic jerk, but you must take care to show just enough that they know there is more to your character, but not enough that they dont wonder if there is more

>>54059767
Normies are retarded and don't understand the concept of character development, or they just don't care enough to entertain the idea

>>54059767

We understand the idea of "I like you, so I'm gonna act like I hate you." We just think it's, mostly, juvenile.

>>54059767
Most people call it "playing hard to get" and it's a negging-tier meme.

>>54059767
Maybe you're making her too tsun-tsun and not enough dere-dere.

>>54059767
A tsundere is a bitch for show, with subtle evidence to the contrary. Without some proof that there's something else there's no reason to assume it.

>>54060585
Normies may or may not understand investing in a character, but they at least need a reason to and not just assume some improbable character archetype is in play.

>>54062122
If there's a character that is in conflict but they have some good reason to try to win over, they might do so. "She might not actually hate you that much" isn't a reason unless the point of the game is to fuck everyone.

>>54062177
Please don't compare being tsundere with negging. Negging is a special class of stupid all its own.

>>54059767
>OP makes a terrible thread
>other posters want him to kill himself

Maybe I've been on 4chan too long, but is the fact that you should kill yourself really that hard for you to grasp?

>>54059767
There's no such thing as 'tsundere' in real life or anything resembling it. You're either a bitch or not a bitch. No exceptions.

Here's the thing: We are the actions we take. It doesn't matter what your motivations may be, what 'secret thoughts' you harbor, what you want to do, or what you want the consequences to be. At all. Ever. All that matters is the actions you take and the consequences they actually have. If someone acts like a bitch, they're a bitch. No exceptions. If some douche acts like a sleezeball, they're a sleezeball. If someone acts stupid, they're stupid. End of story.

So, if a woman treats you like dirt, she's a worthless bitch and you should tell her to fuck off and forget about her. No exceptions.

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>>54059767
Yeah, they are. Most women are just bitches without the "actually cares for you" part. Still, while tsundere's are much better than 3DPD they're at the bottom rungs of the 2D hierarchy. Why go for a bitch or someone who pretends to be a bitch when you can go for a decent person instead?

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So here's my attempt at being thoughtful: 90% of the time my characters are designed to carry out a power fantasy. This means that they are working hard and at a fast pace to create changes in the setting and acquire more power all the time. It's a lifestyle, and it affects everything they do. Even if they desire to go out on a lark and do some zany shit for the thrill of it, they're still going hard as a motherfucker. So when a tsundere character tries to get my PC's attention, he's going to blow right past that motherfucker because he knows he'd have to invest effort into getting her to be honest about her affection. Why bother? Why waste the time when there are more sincere love interests to pursue? Treating her like a bitch just becomes a way to signal how little interacting with that NPC interests him.

>>54059767
They don't exist in reality or even outside Japanese caricatures, so yeah, it's foreign by both senses of the word.

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>>54064237
>Why bother? Why waste the time when there are more sincere love interests to pursue? Treating her like a bitch just becomes a way to signal how little interacting with that NPC interests him.
You're not wrong, but this has nothing to do with le ebin male power fantasy maymay. Most reasonable people (a minority of men I'd wager) don't like bitches, they don't like investing time and effort and money into something that gives close to zero returns. Tsundere is a shit archetype outside of very, very specific circumstances under which the tsundere in question has a valid reason to dislike the protagonist. But by giving her valid reasons, she stops being a tsundere.

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>>54059767
It depends.
Are we talking 'it's not like I like you or anything' tsundere or 'constant physical and verbal abuse' tsundere?

Tsundere aren't even that attractive, honestly. Is the reason people enjoy this personality type because they hope all the bitchy women in their life secretly like them?

>>54064597
I don't think it is for most, although I could well be wrong. Part of the appeal of tsundere characters (i.e. not the crazy over-the-top bitchy ones) for me is being able to relate to struggling with one's feelings and having trouble communicating them. The idea that eventually they do overcome that difficulty and are able to be true to themselves (at least to an extent) is really nice IMO. It's only natural to be attracted to people possessing trait/s somewhat similar to yours.
I know I'm a pathetic faggot for not being able to say what's on my mind like a normal human being, but these characters are interesting to observe from such a perspective, even if they aren't 100% representative of reality.

>>54064682
That makes sense. I guess I just relate more to the kuudere type.

>>54059767
Tsundere characters are hard to write. No one wants to hang around a character who's constantly bitchy and says something nice once in a blue moon. What you need to do is give the impression that their insults and bitchiness are just a front for her true feelings. If she makes threats or hurls insults at someone, they have to feel like they have no weight to them.

I tried writing a tsundere forest sprite once and she acts like she knows everything when she's actually seriously out of her depth, and her facade usually crumbles quickly when she's in a human settlement, where she would hide or tremble behind someone else but insist that she was perfectly fine by herself, you stupid human.

>>54064705
Glad you understand, thanks. I think kuuderes are definitely pretty relatable and interesting as well, the two archetypes do share some similarities. Regardless, good for you dude!

>>54064682
That's a new perspective. You've opened my eyes anon.

>DM makes a character that dislikes the PCs
>players think she's just being tsundere and spend time trying to woo her instead of continuing with the quest
What do?

>>54059767
>tsundere
>not a bitch
Pick one

>>54064788
Really? No problem, it's nice to hear that my opinion's resonated with someone.

>>54064818
Have BBEGugh kill her off. Have her dying words express her love for the PCs. Bam. PCs now motivated to kill BBEG.

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>>54064818
>>54064864
>Not having the BBEG(female) cuck the tsundere into irrelevance

>>54059767

>maybe i have been a weeaboo too long

Yup.

>Is tsundere that strange.

Yup. If your fellow players aren't weebufags don't do that shit. If you Meet a person irl that acts like a piece of shit you just ditch him or her and you don't waste a second thought.

This shitty stereotype doesn't Work in a setting where the protagonists reactions aren't determined by the author.

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>>54064892
This is hot but it gives me the feel bads.

I'm torn.

>>54059767
No, but you have to understand. Many players establish who a character is withing 5 seconds, and never change this perception.
If the first thing this character said was something along the lines of "Idiots!", a good chunk of players just assume she's a cunt and stop paying attention.

>>54064892
Aaaaand where is this from and what is going on?

For science.

>>54064969
>filename

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>>54064969

>>54059767
>but are tsundere really that strange of a concept?
For normies yes, and it's even harder if you don't have visual cues a lot of anime rely on things like blushing and exaggerated motions around whoever they're tsundere towards to relay the concept

>>54062272
Is that actually a thing? I only even know the term from Kingsmen.

>>54065391
>Is manipulating people a thing?
Gee whiz, anon, I dunno.

>>54059767
Tsundere in its modern iteration is pretty fucking trash. It basically encourages passive relationship and status quo.
Consider the following: the way tsundere should actually work is basically being an ice queen - you persistently try and make her fall in love with you, and she gradually thaws.

>maybe I'm too much of a weeaboo-
Yes. If you have achieved the self awareness to ponder that, the answer has to be yes.

But as others have stated, if you're put in a situation where you and a pretty girl might start getting interested in you, and that girl is acting like a bitch, you aren't going to think "oh she secretly likes me, she's just being a total bitch for soooome fucking reason" you're going to think the girl is a bitch until she proves otherwise.

>>54060511
>When you read or watch something with a character that is outwardly treating someone like trash for several episodes/chapters/whatever it's okay because you are separated from it and the emotional payoff of a character showing a soft side will carry you. Players in a game get their first impressions of a character in the first session the character appears. If they don't like the character when they first show up, they may never like the character.

This.

Also important to note that in a lot of fiction, there are asshole or bitchy characters who become likable because they are also very funny.

Archer, for instance. I don't know any anime examples to tell you because I'm not a complete faggot.

But the point being, a lot of times players or GMs will try to put those sort of characters into games, but because they are not naturally funny people, and don't have a staff of professional comedians writing jokes for them, they can't pull off the funny jerk thing, and so they end up being purely a jerk. And instead of liking them in spite of their flaws, everyone else just fucking hates them.

I've seen that happen quite a few times, it's relatively common I think.

>>54059767
>but are tsundere really that strange of a concept?

Yes. In the real world, an asshole is often just an asshole.

>>54059767
Most people don't get off on women being mean to them.

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>>54060496
First post is best post.

It may be "cute" to super beta weeaboos watching a cartoon, but in real life being a bitch just makes you a bitch.

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>>54059767
Making a character who treats the players like dirt doesn't work unless there's some circumstance that makes the players tolerate being treated like dirt. If you wanted to pull this off with any decent chance of succeeding, the bitch in question would have to be in a position of authority over the players, or otherwise untouchable by players, but still in frequent contact with them. Assuming the players tolerate this for some reason (good quest rewards, intel, connections, ect) you MIGHT be able to keep her relevant long enough to show a softer side. Otherwise, good fucking luck, most people aren't going to stand around and be treated like shit by some bitch who thinks she's the greatest thing ever. If you're lucky they're gonna walk away and go raid a dungeon instead, if you're unlucky they're gonna muderhobo or magical realm her.

>>54066097
>Making a character who treats the players like dirt

That's not really tsundere. They just need to be extremely reluctant to show their true feelings.

Marcille is an example of a tsundere done well.

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>>54066508
Marcille is a main character though, not an NPC. It's the difference between a Player Character and an NPC. There's a reason most NPCs aren't adventurer-heroes and all that.

>>54060496
FPBP

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>>54060496
/thread

>>54059767
>tsundere

Is a thing weebs imagine because they're incapable of having healthy relationships.

>>54059767
Artist source please?

>>54059767
In Hollywood, only males are truly recognized as being tsundere.

>>54064060
>not picking both best girl and boy

>>54065042
Out of curiosity, what anime is that gif from anyways?

>>54062272
>Negging is a special form of stupid
Your virgin is showing.

>>54064892
I wish it ended up like this more often. IRL, the only real result of a girl being a bitch to the guy she likes is said guy moving away and the girl ending up alone and sad. Unless of course he's masochistic, actually knows for sure that she loves him and/or he gets to see her non-bitch mode every so often.

In animeuniverse however, you can be 99% sure that the guy will either A/ consider her bitchiness charming, B/ be too much of a doormat to even react or C/ try to move away from the bitch and somehow be considered worse than Hitler for it before being physically brought back to her by society.

Fuck, I'm getting Love Hina flashbacks just by typing this and it's making me mad.

>>54059767
>using horrible japanese animu cliches in your roleplaying game

>>54059767
I have a friends that acts like that. Except he's a guy and there's no sexual tension.
For a birthday party, he prepared an apple pie and offered some to everyone, but he made it a point to say publicly "Everyone can eat my pie, except Anon because he's a dick!"
It was mildly funny, but that's how he usually acts. There was a bunch of cake so I didn't really take it to heart. The very funny part is when he says in a low voice so only I can hear: "All right, you can have the last slice, but don't tell anyone" and discreetly hands me slice of pie.

>>54059767
Unless it's really well written, a tsundere is just a bitch.

>>54059767
Tsundere's are ultimately bitches at first, so you have to be more overt with the deredere moments and not have her go into Bitch Mode Hyperdrive. Most players don't like dealing with a character who have their claws out.

>>54067404
Did you suck his cock afterwards?

>>54067065
Boku no eh nandatte

>>54067404
As precised, no homo (at least on my end).
He's living in Japan right now and he is willing to let me live in his flat as long as he can insult me every morning. Japanese is too mild when it comes to swear words, and he's feeling bad after long stretches of not insulting people.

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>>54059767
Hardcore tsunderes don't actually exist, nor do they work. What does actually happen is a soft tsundere, and should be what your NPC should be like.

Instead of being a bitch to everyone, have the NPC be apathetic or claim to have seen better rather than have her slander your PC's. Finding times to show the dere tends to be harder, during camping and just after stressful situations may garner better results.

tl;dr: be nicer with your NPC, and understand that PC's will not like every kind of woman.

>>54066846
An old drawfag that left for greener pastures.
http://grognard.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=greenmarine_%28artist%29

>>54059767
wtf is tsundere?

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>people acting tsundere about tsundere

You know you love them.

>>54067197
>Fuck, I'm getting Love Hina flashbacks just by typing this and it's making me mad.
FUCK FUCK FUCK YOU

NOW I HAVE TO REPRESS EVERYTHING AGAIN

>>54068098
But anon, what is there to repress? Isn't being half-naked in your room, while putting your clothes on, a death-worthy offense for a man? Isn't mauling someone, up to and including breaking their leg, a most sincere proof of love? Isn't the wife punching her husband while the guests applaud a traditional part of everything wedding?

Seriously, wtf is wrong with Japan? Never nuke a country twice. Nuke it a hundred times over or not at all.

>>54068280
>>54068098
>Love Hina
It says a lot about the anime, if the most popular type of fanfiction about it is revenge fic.

>>54068484
>fanfiction
As if. The manga had an actual arc centered around the MC finally being done with the girl's bullshit and quitting. He gets replaced by his sister who immediately begins to tear a new hole to every single one of the girls as retaliation. The sister was meant to be an antagonist but her arc is considered one of the best.

>>54068571
I'm just saying, the most common point of departure for anime fanfiction is powering up the protagonist.
The most common departure point for Love Hina? It's the dude being done with girls' abusive bullshit.

>>54060511
Genuinely underrated post.

>>54064597
They are fun to tease.

>people complaining about how there's no tsunderes IRL, only bitches
>in a thread about, and on a board about, organized make-believe

The key to a good tsundere beyond, obviously, knowing that your players will enjoy that sort of character is a subtle hand. A torrent of insults only appeals to a hardcore masochist; someone who occasionally gets annoyed is flawed in a relatable way. It helps if you don't set out to make a character who's tsundere; rather, consider character traits that could cause someone to act that way more organically. I have a PC who likes people and likes making people happy, but combines that with a temperamental personality and a general sense of superiority. End result: Genuinely nice and usually pleasant to be around, but prone to making a quick snap when someone's acting foolish, and known to sulk a bit when her pride is injured.

>>54068280
You seem to ignore that Naru beat the wimp out of him. We all need more Naru.

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It's hard to make a tsundere work. If you go to soft they're fan girls with a bad mouth. If you go too hard they're a total bitch.

>>54069130
The thing is that you need to make their attitude, bitchy or not, understandable or even justifiable. Most anime tsundere's have one of the following "explanations" for their behavior
>They're just tsundere, lol
>They're just shy and can't express their feelings honestly lol
>She can't trust people because [sob story] so she's a bitch now lol

I can think of two examples of tsundere done right from the top of my head.
The first is Ludmilla from Madan no Ou to Vanadis. She has a very good reason to distrust the protagonist: not only is he from a foreign and hostile country, but she's the hostage/retainer of her greatest rival to boot. That's already two strikes against him, but she quickly warms up when it turns out that he's a good and reliable person who takes his duties as a noble very seriously.

The second is Rozalin from Disgaea 2 pls no spoil, I'm only at chapter 5 or something. She distrusts the protagonist because she's a (sheltered) demon princess and he's a somewhat vulgar human commoner. There you have it, an understandable conflict that leads to her being icy cold to the protagonist, but slowly warming up as she gets to know her.

A good tsundere is a character with understandable motivations that develops. A bad tsundere (sadly the more common type) is a badly written character that only has the illusion of (temporary) development.

>Inb4 "but the examples you mentioned aren't really tsundere"
If you truly believe this, then I have to change my conclusion: there is no such thing as a good tsundere, "tsundere" is merely moonspeak for "highly condensed bad character development"

>>54068016
Thanks anon

>>54059767
Tsundere doesn't work outside Japan.

The reason tsundere exists, is because Japanese society has a very weird ritualistic approach to romantic social interactions. Unless the NPC comes from a culture with similar social conventions, it just looks weird.

>>54070913
>The reason tsundere exists, is because Japanese society has a very weird ritualistic approach to romantic social interactions.
Go on, you have my attention.

>>54065603
But archer is the best anime

>>54071152
Not him but in Japan the "love confessions" like you see in anime are actually a fairly common way to start a relationship.

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/kokuhaku-love-confessing-japan/

>>54060496
Best post first post

>>54071321
Actually sounds kind of nice to have such a formalized ritual in your culture. Both sides know what to expect and there's no awkard middle ground.

Though on the other hand
>I would like to have a relationship with you with the objective of an eventual marriage.
Holy shit, I saw this phrase in a manga and I thought it was supposed to be a joke. Japanese adults *actually* do this shit? It's refreshingly honest but damn son.

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>>54070913
>Tsundere doesn't work outside Japan.

Literally a movie about a male tsundere.

You're welcome.

>>54071321
>>54071406
It sounds nice and romantic, but in actuality it fucks up people's approach to romance and relationships. That's why Japan has meido cafes, dating sims and used panties vending machines.

>>54071854
>It sounds nice and romantic, but in actuality it fucks up people's approach to romance and relationships
Yeah, if you define "romance and relationships" by the messed up standards of the post-modern West.

>Meido café
Pretty much a SFW Hooters. Nothing wrong with this.

>Dating sims
Nothing wrong with this. I wouldn't mind this trend blowing over to the West.

>Panties vending machines
Alright, that's kind of weird.

>>54071878
Hooters is like a SFW strip club.

>>54071943
without stripping

>>54071854
Is that a cause of Japan's declining birth-rate or a symptom? I assume that their salaryman culture has deterred people into starting families, but what about relationships?
I know that many 1st world countries have lower birth-rates, but why is Japan exceptional?

>>54071878
USED panties vending machines.

>>54072375
>Is that a cause of Japan's declining birth-rate or a symptom?
I'd say neither, considering they're performing better than Germany in that field. The latter just has a... "solution" that masks the problem.

>>54071321
>>54071854
> Not him but in Japan the "love confessions" like you see in anime are actually a fairly common way to start a relationship.
I fucking imagine now a shy Japanese girl working up her courage to "confess her love" to a Westerner, and when she finally does, she is bluntly told "Aren't we already dating, though?"

>"I l-l-love you, A-kun! W-w-wanna go on d-d-deito?"
>"B-chan... ...We've been in various cafes, cinema, arcade, walks in the park, my home and YOUR home. So you think those somehow "didn't count" as a date, just because you didn't ask for my permission to fall in love with me?"

Man, two nukes were clearly not enough.

>>54073569
It's actually one of the reason a lot of Japanese girls are into gaijins, because we don't care for all this hyperritualized bullshit

>>54066578
>is a main character though, not an NPC.
You know, this is a key facet that I think a lot of people don't realize. A lot of character archetypes are much more suited for main character roles than side roles. Tsunderes make much better PCs than they do NPCs.

>>54073911
>a lot
Not nearly as many as your fantasies tell you, anon.

>>54073911
I would think that most of them wouldn't even think about dating gaijins. Japan is quite xenophobic towards the idea of permanent foreign residents, but there might be many that secretly want to be with certain foreigners. There are probably a significant amount who are more open to cultural changes such as dating rituals, but I'd imagine Japan is less culturally diffusive compared to Western countries, especially America.

>>54073911
>a lot
Kek. Gaijin hunters are notorious golddigging whores though. Kind of like in every country those who actively hunt and fetishize foreigners are like that. Not every woman who dates or marries a black guy is a slut, but straight up mudsharks? Yeah, they're sluts.

>>54065420
>haha manipulating!
If you do something it's out of your own will, selling your product isn't manipulation unless you're outright lying.

Yes, actually it's incredibly weird. It's a whole class of characters based on a delusion that otakus and other unwanted people share: that people who hate you secretly love you, especially women. Nobody really acts like that. If someone acts like they hate you despite the social pressure to be polite (which is even stronger in Japan,) you can rest assured they actually hate you. And if you're the sort of person who likes anime, their hatred of you is probably perfectly justified.

>>54074734
>selling your product isn't manipulation unless you're outright lyin
And this is why I don't get the hate for PUA. Not even into it myself, but from what I've seen most of it is basically "just b urself" and a handful of useful "tricks". Compare what practically every woman on the planet does with make-up, corrective clothing, pads and push-up bras, THAT is straight up false advertising. Why is that criticized less than men simply exchanging tips and tricks?

>>54064849

What about the ones who are obviously attracted to the PCs but deny it, and not obviously abusive - are they still tsundere or another -dere?

>>54074564
>Japan is quite xenophobic towards the idea of permanent foreign residents
I admit this is hearsay, but supposedly not even second generation *Koreans* who are born in Japan and exclusively speak Japanese are considered to be "real" Japanese. And if you can tell me the difference between a Nip and a Korean just by looking at them, I have a bridge to sell you.

This 'murican blogger does state that whites in Japan do have the problem of being treated like eternal tourists though, even if they work and live there for years.
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/

>>54071577
I've seen that movie and he's not tsundere at all. He's just a grouchy old man with a justifiable attraction to Helen Hunt titties. It'd be more in keeping with the archetype for him to be physically abusive to a quiet, ugly woman with nothing to offer. You see how it really only works with fictional women in cheesy fanservice-y stuff.

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>>54075408
>You see how it really only works with fictional women in cheesy fanservice-y stuff.
Objection!

>>54060496
Fucking thank you. The other players are just assuming that adult NPCs will act like adults rather than teenagers.

>>54070551
>Rozalin from Disgaea 2
>only at chapter 5
I'm not going to spoil it, but holy shit you are in for a surprise. 2 is my favorite Disgaea, mostly for Rozalin's character arc.

>>54072001
The stripping is the NSFW part retard.

>>54059767
Tsundere for what or who?

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>>54066032
>>54066595
>>54066601
>>54071332
>>54075489
Damn look at all that shit taste

>>54059767
A tsundere, ultimately, is someone who passive-aggressively hides their feelings and mistreats the object of their affection while still expecting said object to stick around. It's not all that appealing once you lift all the anime trappings from it.

>>54060511
>>54060562
>>54062223
>>54062177
>>54062210
>>54079956
Wrong faggots, a tsundere starts out as a bitch and warms out over time. None of this passive aggressive mood swing retardation.

>>54065434
This is the only sane man in the thread.

>>54071854
Just FYI, the panties vending machines were shut down under a law originally made for antique dealers - the Japanese gov't found it as weird as pretty much everyone else and were like, "do we REALLY want to be the country known for panties vending machines?"

Kind of a pity the meme stuck.

>>54059767
No.
It's just something children do. Like, kids in Junior High and early High School. It's juvenile and shows a strong lack of emotional maturity, which makes sense at least for most high-school age protagonists in shounen anime but actual adult human beings just come off as ridiculously immature.

>>54074820
> And this is why I don't get the hate for PUA. Not even into it myself, but from what I've seen most of it is basically "just b urself" and a handful of useful "tricks". Compare what practically every woman on the planet does with make-up, corrective clothing, pads and push-up bras, THAT is straight up false advertising. Why is that criticized less than men simply exchanging tips and tricks?

'cause the "tricks" tend to boil down to 'be shitty and manipulative to trick women into liking you'. As though it's a connect-the-dots game and you get the girl as a trophy. As opposed to treating the woman like a person who you want to have a relationship with.

As for makeup, if a woman isn't wearing it (and is young single etc) people will ask her if she's feeling sick! So makeup is kinda culturally mandated.

For the rest of the stuff you mentioned (push-up bras etc) it's kinda like the makeup thing but a lot more specially focused on young woman seeking a relationship in events where dating might be an end goal (going to nightclubs, whatever). You know, "if you're going looking for a relationship you have an obligation to make yourself sexy-as-fuck as possible".

If you're into conspiracy theories, here's one for you: who makes money off all those beauty products, anyway? It kinda feels like they're the ones trying to push that 'be sexy-as-fuck (by buying our stuff)' angle...

>>54067197
>>54068571
>>54068607
>>54068280
I'm probably going to touch a nerve here, but can any of you describe what Love Hina is?

>>54080311
Not that guy.

>As for makeup, if a woman isn't wearing it (and is young single etc) people will ask her if she's feeling sick! So makeup is kinda culturally mandated.
I do believe there is also the factor of "Every other woman is doing it, and I need to stay competitive so I'll do it too." I think it's kinda like how everyone wears deodorant because body odor is unpleasant, but people in older times got desensitized to it.

>If you're into conspiracy theories, here's one for you:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't actually implying he's a conspiratard, but you're making the guy sound like he's believes this is all a conspiracy.

What I wonder is there a significant amount of women who perform manipulative tactics to trick men into providing things for them? As I guy I would say that's on the men for falling for non-promises and for letting their dick override their brains. Not thinking for one's self over peer-validation makes them vulnerable to manipulation, both romantic and casual. Then again I'm a contrarian cunt because I sometimes like to challenge almost anything except inexorable truths.

>>54080763
The most infamous and loathed "tsundere harem romance" anime/manga series of the 90s. The male protagonist was routinely abused in all manner of physical fashions by all of the "love interests", with the official girl he was supposed to wind up falling in love with finding every single excuse she could to beat seven shades of shit out of him, even for things that were totally not his fault.

She has become the definitive example of the "bad tsundere" archetype for anyone familiar with the series, at least until Familiar of Zero proved that there were still new depths to reach in that field.

>>54081209

Louise never bothered me that much but I kind of hated the main character and wanted the show to be about the slutty red head and her rei clone friend.

>>54081272
Yeah, Louise was a bitch but Saito was a retard and an asshole, so they kinda deserved each other. They also had bit of a feedback loop going where they got progressively worse instead of acting like rational human beings.

Love Hina was definitely worse at the whole "bad tsundere" thing.

>>54074820
Because it "game-ifies" relationships. Hence the famous book "Playing the Game" (or something).

The handful and useful tricks make it less about finding somebody and more about "achieving somebody", as well as some (not all) of the tricks being in the range of "dick move" to "is that emotional abuse?".

If you're after a quick fuck then tricks like negging and undermining the targets self confidence so they seek your approval helps you get that, but the target probably won't find it as satisfying unless they know what you are doing and are okay with it. Otherwise you get your quick fuck, lower the targets self esteem, and then piss off because you got what you wanted. The target gets a lowered self esteem and a (probably) less than amazing experience, which can be poor form.

If you want an actual relationship then you have to deal with the idea of a relationship that you are essentially trying to "win". So you employ the same or similar techniques and then foster those emotions in order to try to make it last... until you don't want to anymore (and why would you, who only ever plays 1 game then stops?). Then you piss off, and leave someone who you spent however long fostering dependence/desire to please, and undermining their independence in order to make them okay with you to deal with just leaving.

In comparison, the common perception of dating/flirting is the opposite. The goal is to make the other person feel good/happy with your company so that they want to be around you more and/or feel comfortable enough around you to fuck.

Make up and shit is basically just a billboard advertisement. You grab attention, and then seal the deal otherwise. Someone up for a quick fuck (probably) won't care if you have pads/push up bras, and nobody (smart) is going to be in a relationship with you if your personality can't overshadow the surface level attraction in the first place.

>>54081209
Louise was definitely a problem mostly where it's literally
>End of season "I love you and nothing could ever change that!"
>Start of next season "Wow she has big boobs, but I still lo-" gets exploded/beaten/tied up/given glasses that beep whenever he looks at breasts/burned
>End of season "I LOVE YOU"

It was literally the same character development every season, but with a bigger payoff at the end. Otherwise I could kinda buy it a little for the "rule of comedy" type deal since it was "usually" vague explosions that did it. After season 2 Saito's pretty 100% head over heels in love, but he has a bit of a perverted streak and likes big boobs.
I did like how in the last season all the other girls in the harem started giving Louise shit for it though. "If you EVER stop believing he loves you and kick him out of the house again, I'm not giving him back next time."

I still think the finales were absolutely amazing after season 1 though.

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>>54078968
>posts anime
>talks about shit taste

>>54059767

Normal people generally understand what they want in life and act uniformly in manner that attains those goals.
e.g. i like a girl, i ask her out

Tsunderes are people who are borderline bipolar. Their actions contradict their desires and their interest.
e.g. i like a girl, i spit on her face

In anime, they act contradictory mostly due to embarrassment. This feeds into the Japanese desire to have purity in their women. Sexual relationships are also extremely undesireable for Japanese men, and tsunderes are therefore a cheap way to make the female protagonist both sexually appealing, but also remain sexually pure. Of course there are numerous exceptions to this rule - but mainstream animes, I find anyway, follow this rule.

Tsunderes are generally, I find, weak characters made weak due to creator design. If a person did that in real life, they would be seen as socially unacceptable.

>>54080311
>'cause the "tricks" tend to boil down to 'be shitty and manipulative to trick women into liking you'.
Yeah, so? So the fact that there's a systematic approach to it offends you? Ask any man who's succesful with women his secret, and he'll have a trick or two to it. No exceptions.

>As for makeup, if a woman isn't wearing it (and is young single etc) people will ask her if she's feeling sick! So makeup is kinda culturally mandated.
And who do you think made it so? Did a bunch of sexist, patriarchal manipulating men decide to make it so? Or is it competition between women?

>>54082574
>Because it "game-ifies" relationships.
Yeah, so? Try hard enough and relationships between men and women can be boiled down to a science. There's nothing metaphysical about it, it's in essence a well dressed-up exchange of resources for sex. Playing the game simply means trying to get the most bang for your buck (literally).

>Make up and shit is basically just a billboard advertisement. You grab attention, and then seal the deal otherwise
And after the deal is sealed you drop the façade. How is that not more trecherous than merely using a few handy tricks and being confident in your own ability? The only way you make this work is by already having the preconceived notion that everyone involved in PUA is a scumbag and women are inherrently innocent. If you merely look at the facts in a neutral manner, it's clear who's tricking who the hardest. One camp is employing the "fake it 'till you make it" logic, the other is downright hiding things and depicting them as better than they are.

>You embarrass her so much about how cute she looks she's hiding her face flustered and calling you an idiot.
The worst girls. Also people who put tomboys in dresses to embarrass them.

>>54083823
>posts bane
>talks about shit taste

>>54066508
>>54066578

If there's a tsundere character in Dungeon Meshi, it's Chilchack, not Marcille.

>>54059767
Bitchy chicks are only good for bullying and hatefucking.

Also a tsundere is a character denying their feelings for someone before going full ''in heat'' mode towards them so you got the word wrong.

You aren't a propper weeb even.

>>54084403
>thinks bane is shit

Was being retarded part of your plan?

>>54084363
I explained to my friend that puttign me in a dress in public, no matter how demure or modest, is like putting someone else in public naked. There's an intense vulnerability to it that is terrible and shaming.

>>54085066

>I'm not here because I c-care about you guys or anything, I was just paid in advance and it'd be unprofessional to just quit
>It's not like I like adventuring with you, BAKA!

>>54084363
>Also people who put tomboys in dresses to embarrass them.
There's nothing more pure and perfect than a tomboy forced to wear a dress, knave! Bonuspoints if it's a high class social event.

>>54084356
You seem to have glossed over the part where you're essentially emotionally abusing the other person.

>>54082574
Aren't relationships kind of like a game? You're trying to "win" someone's heart or sexytimes before you get old. Not only that but you have to make yourself stand out from the others.
To add to your point, relationships are a crapshoot as far as their ability to last, so using negging and other psychological tactics is pretty scummy. There are relationships that hit people's hearts like a truck, but in the end they pewter out and now things end up mediocre at best. So all the more reason not to be a (wo)/man-eater. For everyone else, don't dump all your chips into one person, because life always has disappoinments to shell out.

>>54084363
>>54085166
>>54085325
I probably wouldn't wear a dress even if I was a woman, unless maybe I had regular clothes under there. Not just because of what >>54085166 said, but I would also become even more paranoid of guys. Then again maybe the feminists have lied to me, and it's not like they haven't lied before.

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>>54085066

>Marcille's certainly something though
>the pair of humans she's BFFs with are 90% cute, 10% crazy
>so she has a little freakout every so often
>and is dripping SAN out her ears

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>>54068076
Tsk tsk tsk

Everyone knows tsun is the inferior -ere

>>54086216

>High-level PCs think the Thordens are resourceful scrappers
>Low-level PCs think the Thordens are badasses that eat monsters for breakfast to prove it
>peer PC's think the Thordens are methodically taking control of the campaign setting, one obscure quest at a time
>Marcille knows that they've all gone so deep into the magical realm they've found the lamppost

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>>54086912
Why are yanderes a thing? Is it because there are people who would rather have emotional safety than physical safety? Is it because it's thrilling? Is it because Japan is highly dependent on filling cliches rather than make something interesting beyond a gimmick?

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>>54087014
Rather live half as long but twice as much. Plus, I've got a huge Bonnie and Clyde fantasy. Epic crime spree then go out in a hail of bullets.

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>>54059767

This happened in my game. But the DM ran her all tsun and no dere, she was my character's love interest and then she eventually betrayed the party (twice actually). One of the players wants to kill her too bad the DM quit

>>54085066
Chilchack is tsundere towards the group.

Marcille is tsundere to the entire universe she lives in.