1 >city campaign >kill theives guild thugs and pick a

>>54055175
At least wait until your last thread's down, fucker. >>54046299

>>54055199
I didn't make that thread.

>only one person doesn't like d&d

>>54055175
Then don't play d&d

>>54055649
>only one person doesn't have such an autistic grudge to d&d as to make daily identical threads to whine about it

>>54055175
>1
You are encouraged to put ranks into relevant skills you used, it isn't the game's fault you try and break your own immersion.

>2
Not actually true, not all conflicts involve combat and there are rules for leveling up from just training/research. Also you don't have to kill to gain XP.

>3
Not actually true, he can coup de grace himself and choose to fail the fort save and just die.

>4
The whole "attacks don't hit you" thing is dumb to begin with. Not every hit is debilitating, you can have just a scratch to get poisoned.

>>54055725
Lol I'm not that guy though, I just saved the image from a few threads ago and tried making my own.

>>54055703
Not an argument.

>>54055735
An encouragement, an optional rule, a 3.5 rule because you falsely assume all D&D is 3.5, and supporting the fact that a level 20 fighter doesnt get any better at defending himself, only at attacking. He's still just as easy to hit, save for bonuses from magic weapons and armor. The only exception is D&D 4e, the only competently designed D&D edition, and ironically the one derided most for being too different and not preserving the games precious "identity".

>>54055175
1

>it's fun

Your parents made a mistake

>>54055747
>I just saved the image from a few threads ago and tried making my own
Every single one of these threads brings up some retarded concept involving a deliberate misunderstanding of d&d rules for the purposes of making the game look even worse than it is. It's pretty easy to tell they're all made by the same person. You're fooling nobody.

>>54055747
What the fuck do you mean? If you don't like a game just don't play it.

>>54055826
I need to convince the rest of you morons to not play it as well.

>>54055853
Fuck you I'll play what I want to. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to make everyone not like it.

>>54055798
>An encouragement
Yes, because just disregarding suggestions in the rulebook then getting angry about the fact you did is just silly.

>an optional rule
Not actually an optional rule. Training to gain levels is just a rule in the system not many folks use, but isn't not under one of the optional rule sets.

>a 3.5 rule because you falsely assume all D&D is 3.5
Coup de Gras exists in more editions than just 3.5.

>, and supporting the fact that a level 20 fighter doesnt get any better at defending himself, only at attacking
Not even sure what you mean here, this changes so much from edition to edition that arguing this statement is pointless. 4e fighters are far better at not getting hit at high levels.

>>54055798
None of the things in OP apply in any edition of D&D before 3rd.

>No skills
>Wizards gain experience out of casting spells and researching
>Fighter can just coup himself: this one's true even in later editions
>All poison is insta-kill

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>>54055175
>>54055853

What alternatives would you recommend?

Just play GURPS, guys.

>>54056274
What >>54056302 said. GURPS is pretty great.

>>54055910
>Training to gain levels is just a rule in the system not many folks use

You have to pay to level up after earning enough XP.... FROM KILLING THINGS. You can't get XP otherwise, except from bullshit GM fiat story awards, which the system doesn't have any rules for because the game is so combat-focused that 90% of the rules are about that. And Coup De Grace in 5e does not exist. If you find it, let me know, because my group and I spent about 20 minutes looking for it in vain.

>>54055930
>4e doesn't exist
>5e doesn't exist

You are one dumb fucking moron.

>>54056274
Depends on what you want out of a game. What style of fantasy are you looking for? Don't listen to >>54056302, GURPS isn't that great.

>>54056321
>You are one dumb fucking moron.
I said BEFORE 3rd edition, not after, you moron.

>>54056321
>You can't get XP otherwise
In AD&D and earlier you gained most of your experience by finding treasure.

Don't listen to >>54056326, GURPS is that great.

>>54056321
>which the system doesn't have any rules for because the game is so combat-focused that 90% of the rules are about that.
Except it does, they're just seldom used. They're not even optional rules, you're just pretending they don't exist.

>>54056326
The thing about D&D though is that it can do ALL styles of fantasy. How can your niche games compare?

>>54056370
I'm convinced I'm the only actual person who actually plays GURPS and the rest of you are just memeing.

>>54056379
Unfortunately it can't really. Different editions of D&D can each do 1 or 2 subgenres of fantasy, but none give you the whole spectrum. Other dedicated games are also better at focusing in on a subgenre often. WHFRG for instance is good for a grittier style of game than pretty much all editions of D&D.

>>54056404
>I'm convinced I'm the only actual person who actually plays GURPS and the rest of you are just memeing.
I'd love to play GURPS if I just got a group going.

Who are you playing the game with, anyway? You can't possibly be the only actual person to actually play the game, unless you run shit for yourself. How does that even work?

>>54056404
>I'm convinced I'm the only actual person who actually plays GURPS and the rest of you are just memeing.
New IP here, GURPS is great. Unless you don't like GURPS, which is sad, but whatever. Strokes and folks.

>>54056404
I used to play GURPS a lot but my group split off for various reasons and I have to play other, inferior games now. And I have to learn a new system everytime someone wants to do something different, bah.

>>54056425
>>54056430
Suppose we could get a group going?

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>>54056274
Dungeon World. It's fast, with a strong core mechanic built to enhance the story, not restrict it like the shitty D&D mechanics. Failure in Dungeon World is actually interesting, and all of the abilities are codified into the core mechanic to make it fast, fun, and easy to use. The combat is also much, much better. A dragon doesn't need 300 hit points to be challenging like it does in D&D, it can do stuff that's actually terrifying, like rip a character's arm off. Also, armor is damage reduction so no more of this "less likely to hit, but still does full damage if it does hit" bullshit. The monster stats are incredibly light, character creation is extremely fast and fluid, with just as many options as D&D when you consider that most of D&D is trap options. There is no powergaming in Dungeon World, just a fast story-based game that still has the mechanics from D&D that you love (hit points, classes, etc) but with much stronger mechanics that lead to a more fulfilling roleplaying experience.

My last session of Dungeon World, my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window into the castle moat. That is real roleplaying, not babby D&D shit where you have to make two different rolls and then have some autist look up how far you can move about while grappling. Dungeon World is about fun and good story, not rules and combat bullshit.

Check it out: www.dungeonworldsrd.com

>>54056358
>In AD&D and earlier you gained most of your experience by finding treasure.

So? That means a wizard has to find treasure to learn new spells. Even if he has access to them, he still has to level up by getting gold pieces.

>wizard is part of rich family
>his father dies
>he inherits 2000 gold and levels up
>suddenly he instantly gets better at spellcasting
>even if he hasn't cast a spell in 2 years

Yeah, D&D is full of shit.

>>54056472
Oh good, one of the three games literally worse than D&D.

>>54056502
There are a lot more than three games worse than D&D.

>>54056339
>I said BEFORE 3rd edition, not after, you moron.

Yeah and you're the only one who brought it up. I don't know what the fuck you're even talking about when I pointed out twice that in 5e you cannot commit suicide without at least 4 crossbow shots against yourself.

>>54056522
Is coup de grace no longer a thing in 5e?

>>54056495
That example is not actually how it works, go back and reread the rule book. Inheritance doesn't give you XP.

>>54056495
It only counts if they find the treasure in an adventure. The books specifically point out that inheritances or other profits do not give experience.

Have you ever actually played D&D at all?

Stop bumping the thread you stupid niggers

>>54056535
It's not. The closest you can get is the conditions under Paralyzed and Unconsciousness, but even those don't have a saving throw versus death. 5e is fucking retarded.

>>54056520
>FATAL
>Synnibar
>All Flesh Must Be Eaten
>Mouse Guard / Burning Wheel
>Project Biomodus

Only RPGs I can think of that are worse than D&D. Oh yeah except that Via The New Lands game that isn't even real, and that Atlansia game that's like 500 pages long. Runequest is also pretty shitty but it's not as bad as D&D.

>>54056572
Like you can't just automatically stab someone to death in their sleep? I find that hard to believe.

>>54056544
>read the 1980s AD&D players manual written in autistic lawyer speak

I'd rather not, thanks. That said, a wizard still needs to go out and find treasure in dungeons (and thus almost certainly kill some monsters) to be able to learn new spells. This makes zero sense.

>>54056582
Burning Wheel is pretty good at what it does. I'd take it off that list and replace it with Savage Worlds.

>>54056582
>mouseguard
>bad

okay now I know you're baiting in a bait thread

>>54056440
Ah, wouldn't that be nice.

>>54056586
Nope, it doesn't. That's the quality of product WotC produces today. And people eat that shit up. It's fucking baffling. I guess they were taught not to put effort into mechanics after all of the 3.5e fags honked, wailed, and moaned about 4e.

>>54055175
A T-Rex's perception score rivals an Elder god's

Oh and stats for elder gods.

>>54056558
>It only counts if they find the treasure in an adventure.

>wizard adventures to find his old rich parents
>slits their throats
>suddenly becomes able to cast Time Stop and Meteor Storm

How is that any better?

>>54056586
Nope. Because that would be unfun if a character could be killed in their sleep, and if the rosties and normals and video-game casuals that play 5e lost their character, they would cry and stop buying D&D products and Shekelsteins of the Coast would lose money and that would be bad.

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>>54056321

>If you find it, let me know, because my group and I spent about 20 minutes looking for it in vain.

It happens automatically if a target is paralyzed or unconscious.

>Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
>Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

Why do you put so much effort into bitching about a game you don't understand? You're like a guy watching soccer and loudly yelling "Hey! That guy who keeps standing in the goal used his hands, that's cheating! I hate this game!"

>>54056582
flame princess, wraeththu, cthulhutech, HYBRID, RaHoWa, SenZar, and a lot more.

>>54055175
DnD is shit, now fuck off

>>54056609
>I'd rather not, thanks.
Well, if you don't even feel bothered to do your research, how can you argue about anything in AD&D?

> That said, a wizard still needs to go out and find treasure in dungeons (and thus almost certainly kill some monsters) to be able to learn new spells. This makes zero sense.
A player character wizard does, because the game is all about going to dungeons and finding treasure. Maybe if he locked himself into a tower and studied he could gain levels outside this, but then there wouldn't be much of a game going, would there? Why would they waste pages to make rules for that sort of boring stuff?

>>54056613
>>54056611
Savage Worlds is shit, but it's hardly as bad as Burning Wheel. By the way, "it's good at what it does" is hardly an argument when what its design goals are complete shit. Otherwise I could make a game about shitting and it's goal is to be to take a shit, and I put instructions out on shitting and charge 45 bucks for it, and you can't say it's a bad game because "it's pretty good at what it does!!"

Fuck off with that nonargument.

>>54056472
Pretty much this. Don't listen to system hipsters Dungeon world is fun if you like rules light systems.

>>54056645
>Nope. Because that would be unfun if a character could be killed in their sleep, and if the rosties and normals and video-game casuals that play 5e lost their character, they would cry and stop buying D&D products and Shekelsteins of the Coast would lose money and that would be bad.
90% of /tg/ throws a shitfit at the idea of their character dying for any reason, to the point they want the GM to lie or ignore the dice to ensure they survive.

>>54056645
In earlier editions, you also had to actually find or research spells to add them to your spellbook, rather than waking up with them overnight like in 3.5

>>54056672
You didn't exactly give an argument either.

Now, if all those systems are shit, what do you consider good? hard mode: no GURPS

>>54056582
>>54056672
What's so terrible about Burning Wheel anyway?

>>54056651
>Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

So? A fighter with 80 hit points can soak like 30 of those critical hits. Also he is not unconscious while shooting himself so he can't.

Even if he was attacked while sleeping by a man with a dagger who literally slits his throat, he will take what? 2d4+2 from a crit? maybe more? That's like 7 damage. He literally won't die until being stabbed like 19 times.

>Why do you put so much effort into bitching about a game you don't understand?

Well apparently I understand it better than you so maybe you should get the fuck out and stop pretending you know shit. You quote the rules and it just proves my point further, then you make an ad hominem attack to try to justify your lack of argument.

>>54056614
We can do it!

We'll just need to find a place to meet in and maybe a Roll20 channel to play in. Who stands with me?

>>54056698
In order to understand the game well enough to play you need to read a 75 page primer. Most folks aren't willing to do that and thus throw it in the garbage bin.

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>>54055175
Sounds more like you're a failure at RP and/or the DM is a failure overall.

1. Why did the retard pick survival in a city campaign? IS he some kind of hood rat that needs wilderness survival to survive in a city? Clearly a RP fail.

2. Reading a book like an elvish fag is not the same as to actually going out and casting the spells on unwilling exercise dummies.

3. DM says "Ok roll for Coup De Grace on yourself" or heck even just "K u r kill"

4. imagination-less Braindead people like you shouldn't play a game like this.

>>54056472
THIS so much this. Dungeon World is one of the best systems out there. WAY better than D&D. I found out about it from /r/rpg a few years ago and my group hasn't looked back since.

>>54056732
Inaccessibility is a pretty bad sin, but it alone does not make a system worse than D&D.

>>54056697
>hard mode: no GURPS
Fate, I guess? It's not anything I want to play, but it's great for GMing. I love GMing and playing GURPS, so that wins the contest.

>>54056722
>Well apparently I understand it better than you so maybe you should get the fuck out and stop pretending you know shit. You quote the rules and it just proves my point further, then you make an ad hominem attack to try to justify your lack of argument.
No I'm talking about AD&D, I think you've been wrong literally every time you try and comment of AD&D's rules.

Treating all editions of D&D like one game is butt fucking retarded when they only bear the same name and same umbrella genre.

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lmao

>>54056725
Just leave something in the thread and I'll check it out tomorrow. It's getting really late here.

>>54056732
>Most folks aren't willing to do that and thus throw it in the garbage bin.

Yeah because it provides absolutely nothing unique or valuable that you can't get from another system just as easily. The mechanics do nothing special or unique, they don't aid or enhance roleplaying, they're just kinda there.

>>54056755
>Inaccessibility is a pretty bad sin, but it alone does not make a system worse than D&D.
I personally disagree. Not every game needs to be accessible. Complexity in Burning Wheel leads to a fantastically functional game once you understand its mechanics.

I wish other games forced players to read a primer, too many times you have players who will play a game for months or years and not understand its basic concepts.

>>54056697
>Now, if all those systems are shit, what do you consider good?

Not an argument. Just because those systems are bad, does not mean I necessarily have a system that I think is good.

>>54056777
Never have I seen something similar to the Life Paths system out of another fantasy game. If there is something like it please tell me the system, I want to use it.
>>54056792
>Not an argument. Just because those systems are bad, does not mean I necessarily have a system that I think is good.
You didn't answer the question, name a system you think is good.

>>54056792
Then why are you on /tg/ at all?

>>54056760
Everyone here that wants to play GURPS, go to GURPS general for now. We can start do shit there. >>54027456

>>54056792
>Not an argument. Just because those systems are bad, does not mean I necessarily have a system that I think is good.
So all systems are bad? Why the fuck are you even here. We're not /v/. Just going 'hurr durr RPGs are bad' means you're a shithead and don't belong on a community dedicated to talking about RPGs.

>>54056803
>Never have I seen something similar to the Life Paths system out of another fantasy game.
Yeah, because it's unnecessary garbage. Also, Traveller has something similar. Try playing games outside of nu male hipster shit, and you'll see that most of those games aren't really that original, they just repurposed old mechanics to make them more palatable to mental midgets.

Explain how the Life Paths system is supposed to enhance my roleplaying experience.

>>54056808
Because I enjoy playing tabletop RPGs, and CCG/TCG games as well?

>>54056830
>So all systems are bad?
Not necessarily.

>>54056950
>Because I enjoy playing tabletop RPGs, and CCG/TCG games as well?
Even though none of those systems are good?

>>54056928
>Explain how the Life Paths system is supposed to enhance my roleplaying experience.
They help you decide what you've been through until this point in your life, and where you picked up your skills and other talents?

>>54056965
>Even though none of those systems are good?
You can still have fun with a shitty system.

>>54056982
>They help you decide what you've been through until this point in your life, and where you picked up your skills and other talents?

I can do that by writing my backstory. I already included how my character learned his skills in his backstory. Why do I need a bunch of complex rules to force me to roleplay, when I am already doing it? Sounds like a cure for shitty roleplayers, desu.

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>>54056379
>The thing about D&D though is that it can do ALL styles of fantasy

>>54055175
>>fighter wants to commit suicide
>>has to shoot himself in the head with a crossbow 12 times because he has 80 hp
okay, I chuckled. also, you have a point here.
>inb4 coup de grace
shitty, unelegant stopgap rule

I played gurps

>>54057051
Burning Wheel is a pretty roleplay-centered system with a lot of mechanics to directly help in that. It sounds like your main complaint with the system is simply that you don't care for that sort of stuff: that hardly makes it a worse system than D&D.

>>54056379
>How can your niche games compare?
They can do all styles of fantasy with the same amount of wrangling that D&D requires.

>>54056752
>Why did the retard pick survival in a city campaign?
Maybe his character isn't from the city originally, and chose that skill to reflect his past? That IS roleplaying. Not everything is a powergaming choice, dumbass.

>Clearly a RP fail.
Clearly, you don't even know what roleplaying is.

>Reading a book like an elvish fag is not the same as to actually going out and casting the spells on unwilling exercise dummies.

Except not all spells are attack spells. Why does a wizard have to kill 30 kobolds to learn how to cast divination?

>DM says "Ok roll for Coup De Grace on yourself" or heck even just "K u r kill"
Except that's DM fiat and you can use that to solve any problem with a system. By that logic, FATAL and D&D 3.5 are good systems, because you can "house rule" and fiat them into working. No.

> imagination-less Braindead people like you shouldn't play a game like this.

That isn't a counterargument to what I said, it's just a lame ad hominem attack. Explain how poison works if most of the time you get "hit" in D&D and take damage, you aren't actually getting hit. Unless you admit that hit points in D&D are meat points and the game makes no fucking sense even in a heroic fantasy context.

>>54056502
I'll bite: what are the other two?

I fucking love pathfinder

>>54056928
Why do you have to be such a shit head about this? I mean fucking seriously you fucking insecure cunt. I was asking you a fucking question because I thought you had an answer not because I wanted you to start with your fucking bullshit. God fucking damn.

>Explain how the Life Paths system is supposed to enhance my roleplaying experience
They supply a fucking mechanical standard for gained abilities during early childhood and adolescence. It's the ability for backstory and role play to have mechanical president. Crunch and fluff working together. It also gives concrete rules for social mobility throughout life and a different way to guage power, by life experience rather than abstract point values.

>>54057089
>Burning Wheel is a pretty roleplay-centered system with a lot of mechanics to directly help in that.

They don't help at all, though. They just make my backstory conform to pregenerated rules. And if you're solution is "homebrew your own background shit", then why am I even using the rules at all? I can accomplish the same thing by putting a line next to all my skills on my sheet where I explain where / how I learned that skill.

Also, life paths are negligibly different than Traveller's chargen system. So.... not really anything special.

>>54057169
Lifepaths also tell you how many skill points and trait points you get.

>>54057169
I specified in a fantasy game. Shit nigger if you want your character generation to be free form then just say so. Your complaining for character generation having mechanics. No seriously you're the retard in this case.

>>54057169
>I want free form backstory creation
Might as well go play dungeon world at this point buddy. You seem be allergic to mechanics.

>>54057136
>Explain how poison works if
Just... don't ask. The idiocy of these deendeefags here is already apparent enough for anyone who can be bothered to look. Let's just call it quits and let them revel in their stupidity, shall we?

>>54056666
>Maybe if he locked himself into a tower and studied he could gain levels outside this, but then there wouldn't be much of a game going, would there? Why would they waste pages to make rules for that sort of boring stuff?
What is downtime between adventuring?

I think BRP did it right.
You could advance skill in adventuring by using it OR you could train this skill spending a long time. Adventuring was far superior way to learn things than study but you had option to do something in downtime, like in winter when traveling is a bad idea.

>>54057301
>What is downtime between adventuring?
Something that happens between actual adventures rather than being the entire meat of the game.

>>54057136
If you're above touch AC the attack touched you and just didn't do any damage. If you hit AC you hit and it did some amount of damage represented by HP loss (just not enough to put you unconscious). People who say hitting AC means it doesn't touch you are in the wrong. Literally what Touch AC is for.

>>54057185
>Lifepaths also tell you how many skill points and trait points you get.
So do classes in D&D. Again, nothing special.

>>54057257
So? I can play D&D 5e and just pick a goddamn background and it's way easier than having to justify every skill I pick to some gay-ass rule. i can do that on my own.

>>54057333
>So do classes in D&D.
But classes are shit.

>>54057228
>Your complaining for character generation having mechanics.

No, I'm complaining that I have to tailor my backstory to limited set of checkboxes to build my character because the game couldn't be arsed to make an actually competent chargen system. How about I write my own backstory then use the mechanics to fit my skills to that backstory, which is what I do in D&D and every other fucking RPG. What the hell does the shitty Burning Wheel system add? Nothing.

>>54057333
None of that still makes Burning Wheel an objectively worse game than D&D. It just makes Burning Wheel a game that does things you don't care for.

D&D, meanwhile, can do things you do care for but it will be shit at it. Therefore it's worse.

>not an argument
BBEG

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>>54057319
Not even related to what I am talking about. I am referring to D&D shills who claim that losing hp doesn't mean you really got hit. To that I say, what about poison which REQUIRES you to be physically contacted for it to work. Clearly those hits ARE actual hits. So poison makes you more accurate, if we are using this bullshit "hp as combination of luck, skill, divine favor, and pebis size" abstraction faggotry that D&D fags throw out to try to defend their shit-mess of a """"system""""

>>54057392
HP can be a combination of many things, while still meaning that you do get hit a little bit. A sword hits you, but thanks to luck, skill, divine favor, and the size of your schlong, it doesn't hit you that badly. Meanwhile, the guy next to you has a significantly less favor and a smaller rod and therefore gets run through, is now down bleeding to death.

This isn't hard.

>>54057371
>D&D, meanwhile, can do things you do care for but it will be shit at it.

Except it isn't. I mean, it is, but Burning Wheel is shittier because it restricts my chargen to some ass-tistic backstory checkbox system that adds literally nothing. D&D 5e has backgrounds which are already simpler AND better. So fuck off.

>>54057348
>But classes are shit.

In your opinion. And they are shit, i agree, but they aren't as shitty as Burning Wheel ripping off Traveller and doing a terrible job of it. Luke Crane is a pretentious jackass as well, giving every single mechanic a special name like "vectors" and shit, to make his game seem different when in fact it's just full of boring ideas that don't really add anything to the experience.

>>54057428
Once again, Burning Wheel is just something you don't like.

>>54057417
So arrows just graze you 90% of the time until they kill you? Try getting "grazed" by an arrow, then come back and talk to me. Also explain how a fighter can survive getting hit by 30 arrows. Even Boromir died after like 5.

Why is Virt still allowed to post?

>>54057417
So people attacking from stealth are all bumbling retards?

>>54057333
>So? I can play D&D 5e and just pick a goddamn background and it's way easier than having to justify every skill I pick to some gay-ass rule. i can do that on my own.
Oh now you just sound like a faggot. You're literally complaining "wah it's too complicated". You've offered no justification beyond 'just free form it bruh' which is a bumfuck terrible argument. Try again kiddo.

>>54057428
You've given no actual argument beyond 'stop liking what I don't like' for why burning wheel is mechanically worse than D&D. Burning wheel being complex also isn't an argument against it. If it was you'd be playing a game simpler than 5e.

>>54057454
Borimir is human. You stop being a normal human at level 3 or so for PCs.

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>>54057454
Fantasy heroes keep getting hit by arrows all the time and shrugging it off. They hit them in the shoulders, knees, otherwise missing their vitals. None of this takes into account that an arrow usually takes you out of the fight even then, but no one ever claimed D&D - or the stories and films it's based on - even remotely realistic.

You can accept someone surviving an arrow to the shoulder and keeping on fighting, much easier than you can accept them taking an axe blow in the skull and shrugging it off - even if in real life it wouldn't work that way at all.

Later editions made this far less plausible by means of HP bloat, but it used to work okay at the beginning.

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Listen to >>54056370

>>54056404
I fucking love GURPS. It's so good.

>>54056472
I´m a total newbie in D&D, and I found this interesting. Then I checked the website and actually read about it: It´s a very simplified and restricted version of D&D, I don´t know why would anyone want to play this.

all these threads are just shill threads, ignore and move on

>>54056472
>story-based game
Aaaaaaaaand its trash.

And so you, too, will receive a sage.

>>54055798
>a level 20 fighter doesnt get any better at defending himself
He gets insanely better at defending himself, if he takes the feats for that.

>>54055853
nigger my group will sometimes play systems we know are shitty just because we feel like it.

>>54056722
>he will take what? 2d4+2 from a crit?
2d4+1d6+str then he makes a fort save DC 10 + damage dealt or dies.
Now a level 20 fighter has a pretty good chance of making that save, but it's almost too realist for some sneaky fuck with a knife to have like a 20% chance to kill someone on par with Hercules or Samson.

>>54058180
>I'm too close-minded to understand that Dungeon World is far more open and better designed than D&D so I'll just keep playing the same d20-based trash.

This is why most RPG players are autistic shitheads. "B-b-b-b-but it doesn't have Armor Class and damage tables! B-b-b-b-but my overcomplicated rules!"

Fuck off. You deserve to lie in the pile of shit that is the D&D system. Dungeon World is infinitely superior just for the fact that it doesn't have fucking feats like D&D where you choose to either be good at something or good at nothing, but you'd rather play that than something that actually requires you to roleplay because then you would have to be creative instead of filling your games with the same cliche trash and relying on the combat system to entertain your players.

>>54059109
>2d4+1d6+str then he makes a fort save DC 10 + damage dealt or dies.

That's not in 5e. We are talking about 5e. Either talk about 5e, or fuck off.

>>54057534
>You stop being a normal human at level 3 or so for PCs.

Please show me EXACTLY where it says that in the rule book.

>>54057513
>>54057483
Well for one thing the background mechanics in 5e are simpler than those in Burning Wheel. Unless you can explain why the ones in burning wheel are better, I have no reason to play Burning Wheel. You are free to play Burning Wheel but I will continue to think it's a shit game for having overly complicated mechanics. And nigga Burning Wheel is more complex than 5e, don't even try to pretend it isn't.

>>54057452
>Once again, Burning Wheel is just something you don't like.

Yep. And it's something that 99% of the RPG playing population doesn't like, either, judging by its sales.

>>54057565
>Fantasy heroes keep getting hit by arrows all the time and shrugging it off.

One or two. Maybe three. Not 10+ that a high level D&D fighter can soak.

>You can accept someone surviving an arrow to the shoulder and keeping on fighting, much easier than you can accept them taking an axe blow in the skull and shrugging it off - even if in real life it wouldn't work that way at all.


Both are wrong.

>>54056472
Now THIS is trolling

>>54055853
>implying I listen to retards on 4chan

>>54059784
Explain how any of that is trolling. Dungeon World is a well-designed RPG, it does what it sets out to do. By y'all's logic above with Burning Wheel, that makes it a good RPG.

>>54056472
>rules are negative
Just read the book

>>54059598
I thought we were talking about D&D.

>>54059852
I see this posted in every D&D sucks thread.
I Start to think this is just shilling.
Also, that shit is a DnD lite with cosmetic changes.
Just kill yourself.

>>54055175
complaining that all actions give you XP?
this rules out 90% of games reliant on levels or XP buy

the only somewhat popular game beyond OPs criticism that i can think of is CoC

Please adopt a trip. Im tired of hiding your six threads a day.

>>54059989
VtM has a preset amount adjusted by how much you please the ST's ego.

>>54059909
We are talking about D&D.

D&D 5e.

Read the previous replies in the conversation before commenting, fuckwit. Don't just jump in the middle and post stupid shit then get BTFO and whine about it. yeah you can coup de grace yourself in 3.5. You can also heal yourself by drowning, and deal over 200,000d6 damage with a 7th level spell in a 200 mile radius. So 3.5 has enough of its own issues.

>>54060017
The preset amount is "1", by the way. One experience point guaranteed at the end of each session. After that, everything comes down to convincing your Storyteller you've earned more. Here's the entry from V20.

For my part, I think it works for a game like Vampire, which is far more focused on the story than the mechanics than D&D. But a similar system wouldn't be good for D&D.

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>>54061262
Damnit I keep forgetting to include the damn images I put the effort into putting together.

>>54055853
Just for this, I'm gonna go out of my way to ensure I play a D&D campaign for every thread I see on /tg/ using the OP image.

It won't even be hard for me to do because I'm my group's GM.

>>54056698
Nothing, it just was among the first in the wave of Forge-inspired story focused rpgs, so people hate it for its 'hipster' cred. Personally I think it was a breath of fresh air, and it reinvigorated my interest in roleplaying games in general.

>>54058874
desu the whole situation could be sidestepped if you could just decide as a free action how much of your BAB applies to attack bonus and armor class bonus on a round by round bass. Simple and elegant solution.

>>54057565
>Fantasy heroes keep getting hit by arrows all the time and shrugging it off.
I am genuinely curious about that. Who, when, where? Citation needed.

>>54058180
>I´m a total newbie in D&D, and I found this interesting.
it's stale copypasta, dude

>>54061655
Yeah, I remember when I first starred playing D&D and had dumb ideas like that.

>>54055747
Stephen Molynuex is that you?

>>54056685
Actually had a player start to quit and I swear almost cry over the death of a level 4 character... 5e. She has some issues...

>>54063700
What's dumb about it, a martial not needing to buy a feat to do a basic thing hmmm?

>>54064609
>She
Found your problem.

>>54055175
>1
this is an issue with any system that doesn't have use-based skill leveling
the issue with use-based skill levelling is a lot of book-keeping, speciality skills levelling very slowly, and skills you don't use often being useless.
>2
if the only reason you give xp out for is killing then you haven't read the book
also again, a system agnostic issue

the other two are half-decent points and ultimately derived from the same issue; hp bloat.

>>54055853
instead of listing off reasons not to play, encourage discussion of better games and alternatives
my group's been hopping about trying various systems through both oneshots and long-running campaigns, we've played a few good systems and we've played some very bad systems

we're currently on cyberpunk 2020, waiting on the TESRPG monster manual thing to come out, have two oneshots for homebrews and an ironclaw oneshot coming up, and have played mekton zeta, gurps, shadowrun 4e, FFG's swd20, FATE, D&D 5e, some ww2 fighter thing, and about three homebrews including a modified version of the MtG RPG on 1d4chan.
of those we've played, i'd recommend shadowrun, GURPS, 5e, and maybe FATE if you've got a small group, and maybe cyberpunk if you have a very good GM.
avoid mekton like the plague.
other than that, ironclaw seems pretty good from what i've read of it already, hopefully it'll work out, and the TES RPG seems faithful enough but i'm wary of the DM.

>>54067381
>if the only reason you give xp out for is killing then you haven't read the book

Except that is the only place where you get XP within the rules. Otherwise it's just an arbitrary DM award because the system is lazy bullshit.

grid-based encounter in a large dungeon where one player went alone. Initiative rules are the clunkiest thing ever, it was even worse when I did a turn by turn count for how he fled WITH fog of war in effect

>>54068210
You'd like AD&D initiative rules. Everyone first declares what they do, -then- roll initiative, then the DM tells you what happened and in what order.

It's so much faster it's not even funny.

>>54065587
I know it seems like a simple and elegant solution, but trust me, I've tried it, and it horribly unbalances the whole system.

>>54068368
Handing out a single feat? And Combat Expertise at that?

Whaaat?

You thinking about 5e maybe? I could see it happening there but otherwise...

>>54065587
It does nothing to fix anything. There is reason literally no one uses combat expertise.

>>54056651

God, Ugly Americans was good.

>>54068186
Early D&D editions gave XP for escaping a dungeon alive with treasure and successfully getting back to civilization with it. There was almost no XP for killing monsters.

If you mean WotC-era D&D, then say so in the OP image or you're just spouting bullshit that doesn't apply to over half of the editions of the game.

>>54055175

1 - I ask my players to select their new abilities logically to what their recent experiences have been. Or they take some down time to train in it separate from their recent adventures.

2 - Plenty of wizards reach higher levels without killing anything. Adventuring is just fast, but I could easily make a campaign focused around deciphering ancient texts, discovering secret wings of libraries, or unearthing old, magical relics that reward plenty of XP without any combat at all whatsoever.

3 & 4 - I use HP as meat points, so yeah. Higher end characters, especially martials, are basically demigods, so go fuck yourself.

>>54056658
>Flame Princess
But LotFP is literally just B/X D&D with a streamlined encumbrance system.

>>54070934
And skills rules that didn't exist in BX, and an extreme edgelord asthetic

>>54070897
Whenever we hate about D&D, we're talking specifically about 3rd edition. Don't you know that y now?

>>54070958
>And skills rules that didn't exist in BX
Oh, damn. I read the book a year or so ago and hadn't really played it much, and I forgot about that.
>and an extreme edgelord aesthetic
I thought we were talking solely about rules, given most of the thread.

Why not just play Swords & Wizardry?

>OD&D+, written more clearly, with one saving throw (some classes get a bonus against certain threats) and optional ascending AC

Literally the perfect version of D&D.

>>54071019
I prefer ACKS myself, though it doesn't deal with the saving throw thing.

>>54070964
>whenever I

Trolls love projecting.

>>54056472
>Playing dungeon world
>Try to jump over a wall
>Roll a 6
>Lol u fall onto a flying trex
>Okay I run away
>Roll a 6
>Lol it bites both your arms off
>Sigh okay I attack it with my stumps
>Roll a 10
>U kill it lol

Height of roleplay

>>54071078
I wish I could be as profilic as to make every single 3.5-hate D&D post myself.

I'd use that power for far less petty and more legitimately horrible evil.

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when did you first realize that you never need to create anything worthy of discussion and can shit up /tg/ all you want just by whining about D&D over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

is this really such an important topic that we have to have even one such thread in the catalog at every possible second of the day, let alone two?

can you not find anything at all to discuss about tabletop games except how much you hate it that other people enjoy things you don't enjoy?

>>54070964
I'm talking about 2e and 1e as well. They're all garbage and some nostalgic grognards just can't deal with that.

>>54071109
Forgot your sage there, mate.

>>54071116
You sure are salty with people liking what you don't like. I mean, what kind of a turboautist does it take to have like two of these threads up, constantly, every single day?

>>54071116
Good thing there were (at least/depending on how you look at it) two other editions besides 1e and 2e before third edition.

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>>54071227
But then why is 1e called that? It should be 3e, and 2e should be 4e!

>>54071227
Even semantics won't save you from the fact that it's shit.

>>54071256
1e is the first edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. 2e is the second edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.

Simultaneous to this, there were several versions of Basic Dungeons and Dragons, and prior, there was the original Dungeons and Dragons game.

>>54071286
How? None of the stuff brought up in your OP post apply in them.

Yesterday you talked about a rogue taking a crit from a giant and surviving. That wouldn't have worked in any edition before 3e either. The day before that I think you talked something about skills, which were only brought in on 3e.

You have no argument, good sir. You're just memeing.

>>54071286
They're dramatically different games and none of the criticisms in the OP apply to them.

The fact that you don't know shit about the games you're trying to diss is increasingly obvious. Just give up.

>>54071289
Aren't Basic and Advanced the same except Basic has less stuff?

>>54071608
Quite far from it. Basic uses an entirely different ability score system and doesn't separate races from classes.

>>54071346
He's just a shill for Dungeon World.

Some of these smaller games companies are so desperate for cash that they'll spend a small amount of time shitposting on 4chan and Reddit to stir up the grognards before dropping a sales pitch. After that they just need to check in and post every few hours to keep the thread going and the hate flowing.

>>54071104
Be honest. You'd really just be as petty as you are now.

>>54071688
>petty

Oh. Hi.

4E>2E>OSR>3.PF>5E

>>54071905
4e=2e=OSR>>>3.PF>5e>>>>DW

>>54071939
I can agree with that

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>>54056472
I never liked Dungeon World much to begin with, but I hope you're realizing these threads are making me rather actively resent the system. You're deliberately misunderstanding what D&D and its rules are all about, and even don't get the appeal DW is supposed to have, and seem to consider the two games somehow compatible or related when they're not.

You think you're bringing more market to the system, but in truth you're shooting yourself to the foot.

>>54072047
What if I don't like both systems?

>>54072047
It's literally virtposting

His intention is for you to hate DW.

You have to be really fucking dense to not know this.

>>54072062
Well it's actually getting me back to D&D entirely out of spite.

>>54072105
Which version?

>>54056502
>>54056683
>>54056754
>>54058180
>>54059784
>>54059877
>>54071080
>>54072047
>Responding to copypasta seriously

>>54072121
I believe 3.5 is the one considered the worst by popular vote?

>>54072087
Who's this virt anyway?

>>54072131
This thread is shit, you may as well embrace it

>>54072148
5e is my personal least favorite but that's because I don't mind 3.5's bloat

>>54072148
Actually, that's only going by the loudest trolls.
Most people actually dislike 2e and previous more, followed by 4e.

3.pf is actually the 2nd most popular game, with only 5e beating it. It's actually one of the most loved games of all time.

>>54072241
imo 4e is better than 3.pf and 5e but they're different games

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>>54072148
>Who's this virt anyway?
virtualoptim, a really, really big asshole shitposter that used a name and a trip to gain more infamy
Banned forever, but who knows

>>54072264
That's not a bad opinion, but it's not as common as people preferring 3.pf and 5e.

>>54072241
A million flies can't be wrong: shit is good.

>>54072292
You'd be better off forgetting he ever existed, instead of feeding his ego.

>>54056472
Played it before, shit game. If you autists are gonna play Dungeon World you might as well go play Scarlet Heroes if you don't want to D&D or some shit.

>>54072299
I'd value the opinions of millions of human players over the butthurt of a handful of trolls.

I love how much you fucking hate that your opinion is really worthless compared to the overwhelming amount of people who believe the opposite of all your insane rants.

>>54072293
5E to me is just boring and honestly I can sympathize with a lot of the people that shit on it, 3.pf I haven't played as much but I like more because as a side effect of the bloat there's more for me to fiddle with, it still has flaws though

>>54072347
Popularity doesn't equate to quality, niether 3.pf or 5e are stellar games, they just have more exposure, that being said people complaining about DnD has gotten annoying recently

>>54072414
Both games are pretty stellar if judged fairly. They have their weaknesses, but they're still easily within the top 20 games of all time, and 5e may actually be within the top 10.

If we had to judge them by popularity, they'd be the top 2, but just by judging the actual quality of the games themselves, we're looking at pretty good games, even if they don't happen to be to your specific taste.

>>54072347
Good marketing and name recognition combined with bland and inoffensive gameplay are what makes something popular. It's like the Call of Duty of RPGs. It doesn't make either of those things the best games ever made.

>>54072475
How are they so good, then? Explain it to me.

What other games would your personal top 20 contain?

>>54072475
What do you like about 5E? Personally I find it to be bland

>>54072477
Cute opinions, but it's hard to take them seriously when they just sound like the whimpers of a dog upset about how popular the games are. It also doesn't account for 4e not really capturing the same popularity despite having plenty of marketing and name recognition.

They're more like the Mario or Pokemon of RPGs. Not perfect, but good and popular, and only really hated by the soulless and contrarians.

>>54072499
Would you like to discuss that question in the 5e general? I feel like you'll get plenty of good responses there if you ask earnestly.

>>54072540
I feel like the reason why people didn't like 4E was because of how complex the combat is, also I wouldn't say I hate 3.pf or 5e but I definitely think they are mediocre

Why are people still replying? OP is a troll who keeps switching between defending and railing on DnD every other post. He's just trying to start shit, let it die.

>>54072540
>It also doesn't account for 4e not really capturing the same popularity despite having plenty of marketing and name recognition.

Most of the D&D players were brought into the game by 3rd edition. 5e was more of the same stuff they liked then, which is why they grew to accept it. 4e did stuff differently, which is why they hated it. 2e and previous games were similarly different, and therefore similarly shunned.

3.PF players, and consequently 5e ones, are just the vast majority of players who are content to stay in their comfort zones and loathe to escape it, even though the strange and uncomfortable lands might contain games they could possibly like even more.

But on the other hand,
>Cute opinions, but it's hard to take them seriously when they just sound like the whimpers of a dog upset about how popular the games are.
Why would I bother even debating this if you can just outright dismiss everything I say with "u mad"?

>>54072540
>It also doesn't account for 4e not really capturing the same popularity despite having plenty of marketing and name recognition.

It had the worst marketing shitshow of any D&D release.

>>54072586
I could but I don't want to stir shit, this threads already screwed so I would prefer to keep it here

>>54072586
In other words, you're talking out of your ass. You claim something is the best but can't provide any actual reasons to why that is.

Either tell me, in your own words, why 5e is so great, or accept that maybe it's not.

>>54072607
The thread seems pretty calm right now

>>54072637
Don't be a dick, he seems sincere

>>54057136
>Except not all spells are attack spells. Why does a wizard have to kill 30 kobolds to learn how to cast divination?
But even in D&D that's not the only way to earn XP.

>>54072613
Wow, you really put a lot of thought into this, but sadly, it all depends on you being smart and the overwhelming majority of people being dumber than you. Sadly, it just seems like you happen to be dumb and angry that most people don't share your opinions, so you angrily lash out at them and belittle them.

We call that being a petty cynic in common parlance.

Not everything popular is bad, and 3.pf and 5e are both pretty great. Don't agree? Fine, but a least don't try to come up with elaborate bullshit to try to figure out how to dismiss the opinions of the vast majority of people in regards to what games are good. It just leaves you on a bitter island where the only people you can agree with are other bitter contrarians.

>>54072730
You're literally attacking him instead of presenting an argument, he's not even being hostile, why are you so angry?

>>54072751
Some anti-D&D troll hurt him, probably.

>>54072684
He's been told that several times and he just keeps pretending those rules don't exist. Give it up.

>>54072730
>you really put a lot of thought into this
To be honest, this argument isn't worth putting much thought to.
>it all depends on you being smart and the overwhelming majority of people being dumber than you
Not quite. It depends on me getting deep enough into the hobby to dare make that leap into other, potentially better systems, where the vast majority of roleplayers never do. They never bother to really look into it, to learn that those other things might be worth their while, indeed even that they exist. It is no question of intelligence.
>Sadly, it just seems like you happen to be dumb and angry that most people don't share your opinions, so you angrily lash out at them and belittle them.
I've tried my best to be polite and calm. To me it rather seems you are the angry one: you lash out at me and argue me personally rather than my position.

>Not everything popular is bad, and 3.pf and 5e are both pretty great.
Not everything popular is bad, but 3.PF and 5e are nonetheless far more seriously flawed games than you give them credit for.
> a least don't try to come up with elaborate bullshit to try to figure out how to dismiss the opinions of the vast majority of people in regards to what games are good
I wouldn't call the argument of popularity, marketing, or familiarity any manner of "elaborate bullshit": rather, it's just simple human psychology. Really it just seems to me like you are the one constructing elaborate bullshit so that you could instantly dismiss my arguments, without having to address them at all and risk being pointed out as the wrong one.

>>54072637
I mean, I was hoping to help you out get more of a perspective since my opinions happen to only be my own, but it's starting to sound like you're just looking for an argument.

I like 5e because it provides a framework I like for building characters that's not too complex (since it keeps everything in manageable chunks) but with plenty of options and abilities, and the math is really easy to utilize and adapt. It's also got tons of material to help a DM build a game, and the A/D system lets me run the game seamlessly. It's also been rather quick to learn, with me teaching the system to brand new players and veterans of many other systems in as little as a single session, and we almost next to never have to look anything up aside from the specifics of certain spells.

Is that a satisfactory answer?

>>54072839
That is a perfectly satisfactory answer, but all those points are entirely shared by many other games. They would hardly be enough to lift 5e above everything else made over the course of thirty or even forty years.

>>54072751
I'm attacking his "argument." It entirely relies on him assuming everyone who plays D&D to be an idiot. How is anyone supposed to even discuss anything with him if that's his closely held belief?

>>54072867
>It entirely relies on him assuming everyone who plays D&D to be an idiot.
When did he ever say that? All he's talking about is comfort zones.

>>54072857
Which games?

>>54055735
Better games make it so that the skills you used are the ones that you get better at regardless.

>>54068509
Combat expertise is not as simple as adding your BAB to your AC. It has a maximum of +5, doesn't effect your flatfooted AC, you have to attack to activate it for the round, and yes, costs a feat.
Even just giving everyone Combat Expertise as written would give much less of an advantage to the fighter than most other classes, making them even more underpowered than they are now.

>>54072932
Better players put their skill points to the skills they actually used recently, even though the system wouldn't tell them to do that.

>>54072932
Better games don't have a clear list of what your character can do and instead expect players to fucking improvise instead of choosing what amount to shitty powers off a piece of paper.

>>54072893
The stuff you brought up - character creation that provides many options without being too complex, easy math, amount of available material, easy to run, easy to learn - are generally seen as the sort of basic desirables that great many systems would rank as among their highest priorities. It really is impossible for me to name all that share them, and indeed many of those systems do these things better than D&D does.

But since you asked, Savage Worlds is one I rather like.

>>54072880
"Comfort zones" is his way of saying "Only idiots who hate change or who've never played other games play D&D."

It's ridiculous, because it assumes over 70% of all players fall into that category. Close to 50% of all players play 5e alone.

Sure, some may fall into that category, but his entire argument relies on dismissing public opinion and asserting that the majority of players who play the game he dislikes are simply enjoying it because they are locked into the game. It's senseless.

>>54073012
>It's ridiculous
So then maybe it's not in fact what he said?

Don't assume. It makes you look like even more of an idiot.

>>54072976
But I personally don't like Savage Worlds because it has a number of distinct weaknesses that 5e doesn't have. Some systems do some things better than D&D, but at the same time they tend to do a lot of things a lot worse.

>>54072857
>>54072857
The thing that make 5e and 3.PF really good games is that they do something amazingly, it's that they do most things really well and everything else pretty good. Very few games can claim this.

>>54073056
Fuck me
>is that they do something amazingly
should be
>isn't that they do something amazingly

>>54073022
>3.PF players, and consequently 5e ones, are just the vast majority of players who are content to stay in their comfort zones and loathe to escape it, even though the strange and uncomfortable lands might contain games they could possibly like even more.

It's basically a fallacy built on "It's popularity is undeserved, how can I rationalize it in my own mind?", and requires him to assume that everyone except him is wrong in their opinions.
It's leaps of logic that do everything they can to ignore the potential that maybe, perhaps, the games simply aren't as bad as he's convinced himself they are.

>>54073035
I accept your personal preference, but would like to point out that great many people disagree with it, and many more still would disagree were they to decide to move out of D&D and explore the multitude of other systems out there. They might well find something that fits them better.

>Some systems do some things better than D&D, but at the same time they tend to do a lot of things a lot worse.
>>54073056
>they do most things really well and everything else pretty good
I'd like you to elaborate a bit on the things D&D does a lot better than most other systems, the things it does really well and the things it does pretty good. Because I personally disagree in that assessment.

>>54073012
>>54073087
You're basically just making up this ridiculously complex and probably hilariously faulty psychological makeup of the guy you're arguing, rather than addressing the actual argument itself at all.

It's pretty funny to watch, to be honest.

>>54073056
B/X still does what it does better than 3.5 and 5e do what 3.5 and 5e do.

>>54073130
But 3.5 and 5e do EVERYTHING pretty great, even amazingly! Why can't you see this?

>>54073095
>that great many people disagree with it,

But nowhere near as many people as those that agree with it.

>many more still would disagree were they to decide to move out of D&D and explore the multitude of other systems out there.

That's mostly just your opinion. Some may find games that suit their tastes better, but having played my fair share of games, I really would not be surprised if most would eventually return to 5e.

>>54073130
B/X is an almost entirely nonfunctional system from the beginning of the hobby that only the grognards, utterly blind to its faults, play while frothing at their mouths on how awesome it is.

They just can't move out of their comfort zones.

>>54073116
Tell me where I'm wrong though. I understand you're hoping to defend his roundabout reasoning, but there's really nothing to support his conclusions unless you agree that the majority of players are stupid and play D&D because they simply don't know any better.

If that's how you view the roleplaying community, who can fault anyone that calls you two cynical contrarians?

Around the 4th-5th game I played. We never went beyond 4th level till then, I was an 8th level monk, it was horrible, literallyl useless and cleric and druid were doing everything. I believe the Druid's velociraptor was even more useful than my character.

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>>54073159
>>54073233
You've obviously played all sorts of games, and as such it honestly may be difficult for you to believe just how shallow your average D&D player's knowledge on the hobby is. They'll have never even heard of Dungeon World, or Savage Worlds, or FATE, or GURPS, or any of that - and they certainly don't see any reason to go looking, since they and everyone they know are already playing D&D.

Maybe if they breached out through that zone, they might find something they could like better, something that does the things they like D&D for better than D&D itself does. Or maybe, as you say, they in fact find that D&D was the best game for them all along. Some probably will, but I believe the vast majority of them would not, as I didn't.

You really can't overemphasize the power of marketability and brand recognition. To the public outside almost everywhere but /tg/, D&D IS role-playing games. They can't much disagree that it's the best game out there, because to them, it's the only game out there.

You like to claim it's about stupidity, but it's not. It's more about being lazy, content with their current lot, and seeing no reason to improve, and that's a plague that has always infected all of mankind.

>>54073300
That might account for some of its overwhelming popularity, but it's not enough to explain why the majority of people who are familiar with many games still like and some even prefer D&D. Even if we went ahead and said that half of all roleplayers only have played D&D, hell only heard of D&D, and we removed them from the equation, D&D would still be the most popular game.

But, half of all roleplayers have played more than D&D, and certainly have heard of other games, and that renders his whole argument as nothing more than a hopeless attempt to rationalize why people would play a game that he personally dislikes and thinks no one would have any reason to play.

>>54073423
His point is that popularity isn't an indicator of quality, and that a big problem that DnD has is idiots using it to run a style of campaign it was not meant to run because they don't know other systems

>>54073423
>Even if we went ahead and said that half of all roleplayers only have played D&D, hell only heard of D&D
Claiming that it's only a half of all roleplayers is a vast underestimation on your part. I'd put the real number somewhere closer to nine tenths.

Like I said, it's clear you are entirely unaware on the true scope of the problem.

>>54073510
What would you say the proportion is on /tg/ as compared to in the wider culture?

>>54073472
Overwhelming popularity isn't an accident.

As much as you might dislike it, most people prefer playing D&D, and where quality is concerned in the subjective realm of roleplaying games, that's far more convincing than hearing some guy whine about how everyone who likes it must be an idiot.

This isn't argumetum ad populum, because we're talking about people's preferences, and as much as you believe that people would all flock to other systems if they simply knew about them, 5e continues to grow in player share, and will soon comprise the majority of all roleplayers by itself. People know about other systems, they just prefer D&D.

And, as much as you want to present the myth that D&D is a narrow or limited system and that people should play whatever game you happen to be backing, more people will gladly disagree with you, and disprove your beliefs and convictions like they've been doing for decades.

In short, you really need to take a look outside of yourself, and realize just how narrow and limited your ideas are, because they clearly don't extend beyond your own personal opinions.

>>54073510
>I'd put the real number somewhere closer to nine tenths.

And, that's why I can't take you seriously. If that's what you're hoping to base your entire argument on, consider this argument over, because it's clear that either your delusions are deep and distort your entire world-view, or you're just prone to exaggerating ten times over.

>>54073565
I'd flip the numbers around, or close, and say at the very least seven tenths of /tg/ have given other things than D&D a spin. Certainly every single one of us is aware there are other games out there.

We've currently got generals for at least 5e, Pathfinder (encompassing also other Paizo games), GURPS, WoD, Exalted, the various 40k RPGs, and OSR. The 5e general has 69 unique posters, PF general 55 - whereas the WoD general has 53 and the Exalted thread, in spite of so far having less than a hundred posts, already sports 28 players in it.

The numbers don't lie: on /tg/, 3.PF and 5e can count in at most a third of all of our roleplayers under them.

>>54073647
>Overwhelming popularity isn't an accident.
You're right that it's not, but it's not about us being whiners or calling D&D players morons: it's entirely about the brand being over forty years old and being pulled along by millions of dollars, far more than any other game in existence. That shit creates popularity far more than the actual quality of the game, so long as it isn't complete shit.

>>54073728
>>54073647
You're trolling right? if so well played, your (you)s have been well earned

>>54073728
Well, your claim that a full half of all roleplayers in the entire hobby would have bothered to try any of "those weird hipster niche games", or even learn much of them, is pretty asinine in itself. I really think your time on /tg/ has gotten you to believe we're the average roleplayers, which will have distorted your worldview like you claim mine has.

The entire base for your argument does not exist.

>>54073752
>i've been shown how ridiculous my argument is!
>quick! I better call him a troll first before he outs me!

Everyone knows you D&D haters are just trolls. No real use in trying to pretend otherwise this far in the game.

>>54072971
>Better games don't have a clear list of what your character can do and instead expect players to fucking improvise instead of choosing what amount to shitty powers off a piece of paper.

>Better games are freeform
Go back to Gaia online

>>54073771
I'm probably just prone to actually being outside and talking to people a lot more than you. That, and I travel quite a bit, and have attended several conventions over the years.

What I know is that most players have definitely heard of other games. You can't avoid them. They're next to D&D on the shelves, they're listed on the game websites, and anyone with even a casual interest in roleplaying can't help but stumble on the fact that there are other games out there.

I'm not talking about the general populace here. I'm talking about roleplayers, the roleplaying community, the people who actually play more than once.

And frankly, for you to have such a low opinion of that community just paints you as a contrarian, unwilling to accept the idea that people enjoy something because of its quality, so you are willing to delude yourself to extreme levels just to rationalize your own hatred.

>>54072292
Why would you even bring him up, he literally contributes nothing of value.

I remember him attempting to shit up a Chapter Master game thread because muh too much 40K threads.

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>>54073914
If you're as seasoned traveler as you claim, then it's curious how little you've learned on the subject of human mind and the power of names and popularity.

You don't know what "silent majority" truly means. It's those casual players that neither go to conventions nor frequent /tg/, the guys that just sit in their living rooms with the same group of friends playing the same game every sunday. Many have jobs, and have neither the time nor money to really dive deep into this whole roleplaying thing. And they're far, far more numerous than you give them credit for - certainly closer to nine tenths than one half of the hobby.

They've all played D&D, they know it well, and none of them have looked much into those other systems, nor does the majority of those things have anywhere near the marketing power of D&D - this other niche game may be sitting there on the shelves, but it's just a strange name to them that they haven't heard of. So many strange names, their numbers intimidating them.

In the off-chance they decide to try branch out by giving something else a shot, there'll be far too many other games to look into, no one to guide them in or suggest them anything, and little to no idea what these other games are for or what they can do well: which one to start from? Maybe each of them suggests a different system? None of them know how to play any of these things! Very, very few ever actually manage to give something else a shot, much less find something that actually fits them.

D&D, its 3rd and 5th editions, are not the awesome near-flawless games you claim they are. The fact is that they're simply the first games virtually all of us ever played, and only just good enough for most of us to never really bother trying anything else.

There's nothing contrarian about learning and accepting these things.

>>54072380
5E is mechanically solid but lacks interesting content.

3.5 mechanically holds together about 65% of the time but has really interesting content.

I usually just run 5E and port 3.5 content over, it's not really hard.

>>54073647
>People know about other systems, they just prefer D&D.
Prove it.

>>54074312
>5E is mechanically solid but lacks interesting content.
>3.5 mechanically holds together about 65% of the time but has really interesting content.
Don't know why I don't hear these opinions more often desu.

>>54074312
>>54074466
On the other hand, 3.5 was the mainstream game for a good eight years, while 5e has only had three. Give it time.

>>54072497
Incredibly simple and easy to grasp core mechanic. Understanding the math and being easy to figure out is a bigger plus than most people think.

Allows for a broad spectrum of power levels to work together coherently.

Hits the western fantasy sweetspot almost exactly.

these are the biggest three imho.

>What other games would your personal top 20 contain?
Not the other anon, but probably
GURPS just for the idea
FATE
Star Wars D6
Core WoD/Hunter
Song of Ice and Fire
Riddle of Steel
the LotR RPG
Call of Cthulhu
old DnD family (Basic DnD mostly)
modern DnD family (ADnD, 3.5, 5E. NOT 4E though)

would be my top 10.
Top 20 from a single person are kinda meaningless imho and would require a larger stastic.

>>54072592
People disliked 4E because it sacrificed mechanical variety to fit every kind of power into its core power system. People who played DnD till then like their variety as DnD is definitely a game you play at least with some thought given to mechanics, so they hated the uniform nature of 4th naturally.

>>54072618
It also was one of the most aimless of D&D releases.

Basic DnD catered to people who just wanted to roll dice and tell cool stories.

ADnD and its brainchild 3.5 catered to people who liked to engineer their character and play around with mechanics.

4E just didn't know whom to appeal to. On the one hand it killed class separation and had that godawful system of roles that basically forces your character to be useless on his own like in a fucking MMO, on the other hand it made combat mechanics too obtuse for your casual player to enjoy. To this day I don't believe they gave a single thought to things like target audience.

>>54072831
>but 3.PF and 5e are nonetheless far more seriously flawed games than you give them credit for.
No they're not and you're an arrogant grognard, a troll, or both.

>>54074295
>are not the awesome near-flawless games you claim they are

Hold on. I only said they're great. D&D isn't even my favorite game, and far from near-flawless.
But, I have enough sense not to be a shit-eating contrarian that tries to dismiss the vast majority of people's opinions about something as subjective as a game just because they don't match my own.

You're free to dislike D&D as much as you want. However, what your issue happens to be that you've allowed your dislike to color your entire fucking world view. You've even written up your distorted vision of the world that clearly comes from you sitting in a basement somewhere seething at the thought of people playing a game you don't like.

Your entire argument start and ends with you not liking D&D, not from any actual evidence.

I'm getting the sense that you're never going to have the opportunity to change your mind. You're going to just spend all your time shitposting on 4chan, coming up with these insane ideas that belittle everyone except the minority that agrees with you, when even just a casual step outside would shatter all you've convinced yourself of. Hell, your entire worldview starts and ends with you assuming that D&D must be a terrible game, and then you jumping over the gaps in logic that result from that faulty premise with extreme distortions of the entire world.

Do me a favor. Before you talk about your invented vision of the "silent majority" again, find a shred of proof to support yourself. I can just as easily claim my own version of the silent majority, which puts us at a standstill, except I at least have numbers like book sales and convention statistics to draw upon to at least attempt some measure of correlating evidence with a hypothesis.

>The fact is that they're simply

And quit trying to submit your opinion as facts already.

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>>54074599

>>54074625
>And quit trying to submit your opinion as facts already.
Was D&D not the first game you ever played?

>>54073095
>and many more still would disagree were they to decide to move out of D&D and explore the multitude of other systems out there
nice assumptions you asshat. You're literally wrong. Look at Europe. Now the yuropoors never had such a massive exposure to DnD as the Americans. Germans for example had DSA as a staple system, Polaks play Warhammer or something like that, etc.
And yet, in each off these markets, DnD is growing. That disproves your little conspiracy nonsense that over half of all RPG players are content sheeple that are just to afraid to invest 30 minutes to reading up on another system.

>>54073300
>They'll have never even heard of Dungeon World, or Savage Worlds, or FATE, or GURPS, or any of that - and they certainly don't see any reason to go looking, since they and everyone they know are already playing D&D.
can you back that claim up, sempai?

>>54073735
>That shit creates popularity far more than the actual quality of the game, so long as it isn't complete shit.

Nice circular logic

>this thing is so good that its popularity thrived for 40 years, but it only did so because it thrived for 40 years!

>>54074654
Actually, it was Tunnels and Trolls, decades ago. But I'll be quick to admit that I only played that a few times before moving onto D&D, before moving on from there.

What game I played first is ultimately irrelevant, however, in regards to the rest of my condemnation of your attempt to spin your hatred of a game into a blanket insult of the entire role playing community.

>>54074706
I don't even hate D&D. I play D&D regularly. I've similarly more than once stated that I do not think anyone involved in this thing is in any way stupid.

If you reckon I am making shit up about the true roleplaying demographics, then you're just as much making shit up about me.

>>54074295
>shitty pseudo psychology
kys

>>54074490
Hey, that's why I run 5E with 3.5 content

>>54074466
>Don't know why I don't hear these opinions more often desu.
because
>On the other hand, 3.5 was the mainstream game for a good eight years, while 5e has only had three. Give it time.
People know and accept that, because the foundation is solid and more content is actually produced at an acceptable pace. UA is like a Dragon magazine with actual quality control, only thing it lacks are the guest cartoons.

>>54074700
Dungeons & Dragons was the first of its kind, the most generic, and as a consequence the most popular - and as a consequence of -that-, it made a lot of money, allowing its company to draw in a lot of developers and marketers. You can't possibly claim that stuff has no impact in the popularity of a system.

>>54074654
Nope, started with something we homebrewed together from Might and Magic, moved on to WHFRPG, and only then did we play DnD.

>>54074775
>You can't possibly claim that stuff has no impact in the popularity of a system
You're claiming it does. Burden of proof is on the side implying a correlation, mate.

>>54074625
>>54074743
Have you ever played video games? Read a book?

Would you say Battlefield, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto V, Overwatch, or the other best-selling games of the past year, are automatically also the absolute best games out there? Would you say Harry Potter is the single finest piece of literature ever written?

>>54074742
Your entire premise is that the game's popularity has nothing to do with its quality, that most people who play role playing games have no right to express an opinion on games, and that your distorted vision of the world based on zero evidence is worth building an entire argument on.

What can I say? It sounds like you're just a contrarian upset about a game's popularity, regardless of how you'd like to attempt to portray yourself. Maybe if you didn't have to rely on conjecture built around dismissing other people's opinions, you might be able to pretend to be something other than that.

But please, go on and tell me once again that most people who play D&D are somehow "wrong" for doing so, and that they simply don't know any better.

>>54074861
Videogames and literature are vastly different media compared to RPGs and comparing them is the work of a fool or the attempt to mislead with false equivalence.

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>>54074865
>Your entire premise is that the game's popularity has nothing to do with its quality
No.
>that most people who play role playing games have no right to express an opinion on games
Likewise wrong.
>and that your distorted vision of the world based on zero evidence is worth building an entire argument on
Also quite false.

You keep twisting and distorting my words in order to get any manner of an argument out of them. You're constructing an image of me inside your head to make an easier fight against, even though it's nowhere near what I said or meant. That, or you're just trying that pseudo-psychology of yours on me instead, and completely failing might I say.

I could repeat what I'm really talking about, but I think I might as well just go and bash my head against the wall for the exact same effect.

>>54074813
I'm not the guy you're arguing with but Jesus Christ you're an idiot, you're argument is that DnD is popular and therefore good without even touching on the mechanics and fluff of DnD, and continue to attack anyone that disagrees with you, I know that anti-DnD trolls are annoying but you're making an ass of yourself and are making things worse for those that enjoy DnD. The anon earlier that suggested that you were a troll is probably right but in the off chance that you aren't I am telling you this so you might behave like an adult

>>54055175
fucking kill yourself please

>>54074883
Why do you think they're different? Why do you suppose marketing and money and human minds work in some entirely alien manner in RPGs, than it does in these other forms of entertainment? How does that work exactly?

>>54074861
Most of those are actually pretty good. None of them are bad, despite several of them really not being to my personal taste.

You had to leap into hyperbole. No one is saying that D&D is the absolute best game, even though that's not really that ludicrous of a statement if we acknowledge that such a statement would be a personal opinion. But, it's still a good game, if not a great game, by any fair metric.

>>54074959
The entire argument relied on D&D being the best game because it's the most popular.

>>54074959
Most AAA games are good as products not games

>>54074987
D&D is the closest thing to AAA you could find in the entire RPG hobby, basically. As a result it's a perfectly serviceable product and a decent enough game as well, but it doesn't make it anywhere near the best, despite its popularity.

>>54074965
Can you point to who said that?

>>54074936
>you're
your*

>you're argument is that DnD is popular and therefore good
without even touching on the mechanics and fluff of DnD
nope, talked about mechanics in these posts:
>>54074575
>>54074494
>>54074312
learn too read, fucktard.

Also, if you can't deal with hostility for being mentally deficient, fuck off 4chan or don't be a fucktard.

>>54074949
Vastly higher investment required, both monetary and and of time. Vastly different demographics overall. Vastly different way how the concept of community interacts with the activity itself.

>Why do you suppose marketing and money and human minds work in some entirely alien manner in RPGs
Keep your popsci psych shit out of here, I can guarantee you that you definitely don't know your shit.

>>54075054
>Vastly higher investment required, both monetary and and of time.
Not really. A few hours with friends once a week is not that much more of a requirement.
>Vastly different demographics overall.
Doesn't change the core concept.
>Vastly different way how the concept of community interacts with the activity itself.
So? Video games and literature are likewise interacted with entirely differently.
>Keep your popsci psych shit out of here, I can guarantee you that you definitely don't know your shit.
Look, marketing has worked the same in all human history: something is popular, it makes money, money is used to market it and get it to more people, copycats arrive but are rarely as popular as the original. If you claim roleplaying games work differently from literally every other thing ever marketed to a customer, then you're out of your mind.

>>54074987
What the fuck does that even mean.
The product they're trying to be is a game.
What kind of crazy contrarian juice are you injecting into your tear ducts?

>>54075054
You didn't actually make any points about DnD mechanically you just made unsubstantiated claims about the differences between editions, you need to calm down, your shitting all over the thread

>>54075109
That's been all he's doing this entire time.

>your shitting all over the thread
Thread was shit to begin with.

>>54072241
Pathfinder is objectively the best tabletop game there is

>>54075097
More work is done comparatively on polish, visuals and marketing rather than gameplay, skyrims combat for example is incredibly shallow because you're options are very limited

>>54075154
Your

>>54055175

1 >not understanding how studing works >picking a class with primarily willderness skills in a city game
>Not advancing skills you used
>Blaming the game for all the above

2 >not awarding exp for things other than killing monsters

3 >not knowig about coup de gras rules and reasonably applying them to attempts to kill yourself

4 is bullshit, but that's only from like 4e and 5e to my knowledge, so my 2e waifu is free of that sin

>>54075183
4e is best DnD

>>54075096
>Not really. A few hours with friends once a week is not that much more of a requirement.
Videogames, nigger. You need a few hundred dollars for a console or PC, plus the price for the video games or the time to pirate that shit. Then you play the games for 30 to 200 hours depending on the game. RPGs need a fucking pencil and a sheet of paper and that's it, and you can play a different system every two weeks.

>Doesn't change the core concept.
>The demographic buying something doesn't change the way the demographic buys something
fuck off

>So? Video games and literature are likewise interacted with entirely differently.
Vidya is a solo entertainment. So is literature. Communities form after the fact. RPG literally requires you to talk to other people. This structures the community very differently. Source:
Compare /v/ or /vg/ to /tg/, compare any vidya forum to any dedicated RPG forum.

>Look, marketing has worked the same in all human history: something is popular, it makes money, money is used to market it and get it to more people, copycats arrive but are rarely as popular as the original. If you claim roleplaying games work differently from literally every other thing ever marketed to a customer, then you're out of your mind.
>More half-knowledge
If that's how it works then why did the success of DnD break in at exactly the point they reached their biggest budget you moron?

>>54075109
l2read

>>54075243
>If that's how it works then why did the success of DnD break in at exactly the point they reached their biggest budget you moron?
D&D was very popular right from the very beginning.

>>54075243
Have your last (you) I advise anyone in this thread to just ignore this guy, he's either a troll or incapable of intelligent discussion

>>54056572
>comically missing the point of 5e
The rules never state that Coup De Grace or anything of the sort is impossible, and therefore whether or not it can be done is up to DM discretion. Fucking hell, you rulefags suck all the fun out of everything.

>>54075154
Most people actually like the combat because it's not that demanding, and there's much more to the game than just fighting. The main focus of the game is actually the exploration.

It's a game, man.

>>54075271
And it fucking tanked around 4E when they literally had the most money.

>>54075287
aw how cute, he's upset I debunked his nonsense arguments.

>>54075291
Eh, coup de grace is something where an elegant and most importantly preset mechanic is kinda important because that's a situation where people quickly feel treated unfairly, so I'd actually prefer having rules for that.

>>54075296
I can understand enjoying but that doesn't mean it's well designed, how a game makes you feel is subjective and you're entitled to your opinion, but how a game functions is objective and skyrim has objectivitly shallow gameplay

>>54075346
>And it fucking tanked around 4E when they literally had the most money.
Thanks to a combination of having no idea how to market it or to whom, and deviating too far from the popular established mechanics of D&D. The failure of 4e, if anything, should be taken as an evidence that comfort zones are a very real thing and that most people really would much rather stick to the tried and true - i.e. 3.PF and 5e - even if better alternatives exist.

>>54075346
if you're sincere we could continue this conversation, also there are multiple people disagreeing with you in this thread so you shouldn't assume that we're all the same person

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>>54075392
If the popularity of D&D is a clear indicator of how good the game is, then does the popularity of our side in this argument also mean that we're right?

>>54075405
Neither the popularity of DnD nor the popularity of your opinion is strong evidence that they are good or right respectively, also I am not the guy who argued with you about the popularity of DnD so let's take it from the top

>>54075433
But if they were neither strong nor right, why would so many people support them?

>>54075352
The question is their intent. Skyrim doesn't want you to sink 80 hours into combat like in DmC4. Skyrim wants you to fuck around and raise your skills for a week and then mod in Master Chief riding Thomas the Tank Engine with a horse's anus. And that's coming from someone who loathes the game.

>>54075369
>better
nice baseless assumption you got there, asshole.

>>54075392
The only one not sincere here is you. Mechanical reasons for the success of DnD have been given, on the other hand not a single argument why DnD is apparently more flawed than any other RPG have been brought forth. All that is spouted here are misunderstood ideas about how marketing and brand recognition works and insults against literally more than half the entire RPG-playing population on the level of "wake up sheeple".
Right now your arguments are literally on the intellectual level of a flat-earther.

>>54075405
>shitty troll logic
0/10

>>54075479
>not a single argument why DnD is apparently more flawed than any other RPG have been brought forth
There are four in the OP post.

>>54075433
popularity is actually a very good indicator for things with very little or no threshold to switch. RPGs definitely fall under that category, because they're mostly conceptually very close and entry is very easy with everything on the internet and many companies providing free intro material. If you actually had even basic understanding of market dynamics, you'd know this.

>>54075499
0/10, again
come on, faggot, at least put some effort into it.

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Some fucking random on the internet is acting all superior and hating on my favorite game, I better sell all my gaming stuff! What do you honestly hope to accomplish with this shit post other than wasting people's time?

>>54075580
>What do you honestly hope to accomplish with this shit post other than wasting people's time?
Getting like seventy people all riled up and laughing about it?

>>54075479
I'm not the same guy, I entered this thread around the time people were discussing the differences between editions, don't attribute to me what the other guy said

>>54075593
>hurr durr I was only pretending to be retarded
called it

>>54075668
then read the thread.

>>54075669
There are 3 different people right now defending DnD one of whom is a troll

>>54075686
the only trolls here are the retards trying to shit on DnD and getting btfo at every turn.

>>54075721
Funny, I thought it was the troll defending DnD who keeps getting btfo'd and just falls back to whining about pretend psychology on his opponents and how fucking angry they are while making no real arguments of his own.

Just an angry dude. Or, if he's indeed a troll, pretending to be such.

>>54075747
2/10
good idea, but needs more subtlety.

>>54075747
>>54075721
I'm pretty sure the troll switchs sides as convenient to stir shit

>>54075779
That'd pretty much nail the pro-D&D guy a the troll, since he's all alone as opposed to like three or four going against him.

He's simply one of those three or four as well.

>>54075747
>keeps getting btfo'd
>There still isn't, after literally 330 replies, a single argument here why DnD's popularity is undeserved
Are you on drugs?

>>54075884
Again, I'd like to point you to the OP post.

Sine Requie is the best game anyway.

>>54075884
I mean we get these threads about daily, and virtually every non-general thread about D&D will start with an encouragement to not play D&D.

Wonder why.

>>54075902
How is not understanding what a game abstraction is a flaw of the system?

>>54075942
Because retards read on 1d4chan that /tg/ memes about how bad DnD is and think it makes them look like oldfags.

>>54075884
All right.

It's an unbalanced mess of a system that does not at all work at doing what it claims it does.

Does that work?

>>54075978
>Because retards read on 1d4chan that /tg/ memes about how bad DnD is and think it makes them look like oldfags.
See, here you're going on again making assumptions about people and generalizing them like crazy. Didn't you say that makes the other guy look like an angry, bitter contrarian?

>>54075839
There are about 2-3 anti DnD people right now