>level up >get better at fighting >don't get better

>ever having rules for roleplaying
if your RPG of choice does this it's shit

>>53963372
Wait, you've been getting better at fighting by leveling up in-game? What system are you playing? I tried Dark Dungeons but it never actually taught me any magic, so I'm in the market for something new.

>>53963372
When did you realise role-playing games were garbage?

>Roll a dice to kill the orc/mobster/alien
>Could be outside having real adventures

>>53963372
When did you realize "When did you realize D&D was garbage?" threads were garbage?

>Second or third thread
>When it dawns to you that someone somewhere out there is really bitter for some reason

>>53963497
If I tried to kill people in real life I'd get arrested.

>>53963550
Git gud

>>53963550
Join the army

>>53963550
He's talking about LARP you ginormous toad

>>53963372

>When did you realize D&D was garbage?

3rd edition

>>53963372
I didn't.

>>53963372
when it breaks unless you have a good gm to put bandaids on the shitty system

unless you're playing 4e, but who the fuck plays 4e for anything but combat

>>53963639
>running across the field throwing a purple ball at someone shouting "lightning bolt" then hit my Friend with a styrofoam rod until one of us cries

>>53963550
>Not having thieves tools irl.

>>53963627
>When recruitment officers get this desperate
Try /k/ or /pol/, you'll have better chances there

>>53963650
This

>Roll "incredibly good" according to my GM
>Ask for a character that is good at brawling, a pugilist of some kind
>Gives me class called brawler
>GM can't stop saying how stronk and powerful my char is
>Never see that reflected in game
>Always get my shit beat out of me
>Always unconscious
>Magus and Oracle doing everything like is ultra easy mode
>Druid is having a cakewalk
When your total bonus is 10 points higher than the next player and he's not having a problem at all but you can't do shit, you know the system is shit. Never went back to D&D

>>53963639
You can't be arrested if you kill people while LARPing? Cool.

>>53963801
>running across the field throwing an indian-rubber ball at someone shouting "fuck you" then hit my Friend with a crosse until one of us cries

Lacrosse is a skirmish game.

>>53963804
The army is nothing but /tg/ faggots.

Some of my best DH and D&D days.

>>53963850
Shut up, you know what I meant you ginormous toad

>>53963825
>Your GM not explaining the tier system to you
>Expecting a strong guy who punches things to be on the same level as spellcasters who can warp reality.

>>53963550
That's the fun part though

>>53963372
>level up
how is this in any way related to just DnD
almost every game in existence features some form of progression
if not through levels, then through some other form of Xp gate, that doesnt give you levels but is similar in concept

as for getting better at roleplay, it really doesnt matter what system you use, either get better players, or communicate with the ones you have to see what the problem is

saged, since people are apparently dumb enough to bump this, and it would be the height of immaturity to make a "when did you realize OPs system is garbage thread"

>>53963942
>I'm going to fight so I can get better roles when I talk
fuck off

>>53963975
>Not understanding the purpose of abstracted game mechanics.

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>>53963975
But anon, duels are decided by the better banter.

>>53964003
>I want to play a video game, not roleplay

>>53963779
It's got a better skill system than both 5e and 3.5, for starters.

>>53964012
if that was the case it'd be okay, but it's not the case so it's not okay

>>53963550
Found the filthy casual.

>>53964034
What, why do you think my bard gets CHA to his weapon attacks?

>keep spamming the same thread
>don't get better at shitposting

Really makes you think.

>>53963898
Come up with better insults, scrublord.

>>53963942
Because we're only allowed to bitch about D&D, every other system is objectively fun and flawless.

>>53963914
Was my first time playing D&D

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>>53964012

>>53963825
>has a shit DM
>has a bad time
>blames it on the system

Sometime around when I started pathfinder, I started to comprehend what a waste of time all this optimization business was.

It didn't really sink in until I had tried 5e and some truly non-dnd games.

>>53964130
>Class A is way worse than class B even if you have 5 times better stats
>GM is to blame

>>53963779
Fuck you, mate.
Politely though.

4th is a blank enough slate you can reskin it in a million ways. I've run it as mechs, as sci fi, as high fantasy, as more or less modern, all with only minor tweaking. The rp and everything else, thats on the DM, it's their job to enforce rp and story.
>Dont you start with that 4th is shit bc no rp
Thats on you.

Alright anons

What's a good high fantasy system that isn't DnD, because I actually am tired of it.

>>53964510
Tired of what? setting? mechanics?

>>53964575
Mechanics.

It just feels like there's so many tiny things that I dislike about 5e. As a whole it seems like it should be fine, but they just fucked up a lot of small bits that add up.

>>53964510
I found that trying out Dungeon World (a derivative of the 'Savage Worlds' generic system) helped shake me out of some of the rules-constructs that dnd had burned into my mind. It has its flaws, but it helped me realize that there were different, often better ways of doing things.

You could also have a gander at some OSR systems. They're like pre-3rd dnd, embracing a fundamentally different rules philosophy that I found refreshing. And don't let the old school style fool you either, many of these games and houserules were relatively recent additions. Also the modular nature of the movement's games means you can hack together bits you like and discard the ones you don't.

>>53964059
>doesn't need to get better because it works every time

when did you realize /tg/ is garbage

>>53964678
When it became impossible to have a discussion about 3.5 outside of /pfg/ that didn't get derailed because of one single faggot.

>>53963372
Late 80's when I discovered other systems that didn't have classes, levels, or alignments. Stuck with it out of momentum until '92, at which point I discovered GURPS and never looked back (I eventually grew weary of GURPS as well, but I would go back to it before I ever considered going back to any variety of D&D).

>>53963372


You made this exact same thread last night.

>>53956746

Come, everyone. Let us laugh at how much of a faggot OP is.

>>53964510
GURPS

>>53963372
>don't get better at roleplaying

I don't understand what you mean by this.

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>>53963372
>don't get better at roleplaying
Speak for yourself. My character has 12 skill ranks in roleplaying, and my character's character has 5 ranks!

>>53964820
>Come, everyone. Let us laugh at how much of a faggot OP is.

Why? This thread clearly proves that it's a working strategy. If at first you don't suggeed, just remake the thread - guaranteed replies!

>thread fails yesterday
>remake it word for word

>>53964659

>Dungeon World (a derivative of the 'Savage Words' generic system)

Uh. What?

>>53965199
It just goes to show that unless the mods ban him, he'll never stop. I wouldn't be surprised if half the replies in this thread were just him and his three friends.

>>53963942
The only games to prominently feature levels are DnD and derivatives.

>>53965402
All role playing games are derivatives of D&D.

>>53965401
Jokes on you, I have four friends.

>>53965402
And curiously, the most successful RPGs are D&D and derivatives.

COINCIDENCE?!

>>53965401
>he'll never stop

I've been on /tg/ since there very beginning. It feels that way with every shitposter, but eventually they grow bored of it.

God I remember when I never thought I'd see the end of flare spam.

>>53965474
No, the mods just stop playing around, delete their posts, and ban them on sight. That's the only thing that ever makes trolls like these give up.

>>53964354
K munchkin.

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>>53964062
Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

>>53965493
Lol. For most of its existence, /tg/ didn't have much moderation to speak of. There was a small handful of instances where a troll got banned (Jim Profit and Virtual Optim are the only that come to mind, actually, and using Anymouse's name became an autoban offense for a while) and for the most part they just get sick of it.

>>53965373
Savage Worlds is a generic system that can be used for multiple genres. Dungeon World is a specialized fantasy version of it.

>>53965529
>For most of its existence, /tg/ didn't have much moderation to speak of.

Only for the first four or so years. After that, we've had plenty of repeat trolls, and the only thing that made them stop was their threads getting deleted and them getting banned. Basically, the only cure for autism and obsession seems to be contacting the moderators and getting them to take action. It's a bit harder when they're anonymous like OP, but it's not really that hard to just delete these threads and ban whoever makes or bumps them.

>>53965536
You're thinking of Apocalypse World, not Savage Worlds.

Savage Worlds has nothing to do with this line.

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>>53963914
Lvl 2 character should have power level 2

lvl 10 power level should have power level 10

doesn't matte what the characters do.


Example from fiction: Every anime girl ever can toe-duel a mage of her power level using physical attacks

Hercules, grey mauser, Fahfard, conan, etc have similar power level to (and in fact singlehandedly defeat) mages in their respective mythos.

>>53965677
>Lvl 2 character should have power level 2

I don't disagree that this is the ideal, but it's unfortunately not the reality of 3.PF.

A 3.PF DM should be aware of the Tier system and ensure that everyone is playing in either the Tier 1-2 range; the Tier 3-4 range (ideal in my opinion); or the Tier 5-6 range.

>>53965677
She's so qt

>>53965772
>Is not the systems fault, is the GMs for not knowing the system is flawed

>>53965823
No, it totally is the system's fault, I don't disagree with that. It's nevertheless still possible to have a fun and balanced game, you just need to make sure that all classes are within a tier of each other.

And with 3.PF having existed for 17 years now, there's really no reason why a DM shouldn't be aware of its flaws.

>>53965870
*"Balanced" in the sense that a player of each class will still be able to have fun and contribute.

>>53965677
D&D, 3.5/PF especially break their classes into tiers. Within each tier and one level above or below classes are roughly similar in power level by level.

This allows a wide variety of classes and power levels that lets you run games that range from superheroic to gritty.

There's no excuse for any GM now to not understand this and run his games accordingly.

That's just how the system works if you don't like it don't play it but at least bother to understand it.

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>>53965870
>>53965898
i'm going the opposite route as Ive found the best way to balance the game is to randomize as much as possible.

>Players don't level their classes in a linear fashion but rather expend XP to level up specific areas such as HP, spellcasting, or saving throws.
>They gamble their XP expenditure. For example a ranger would have to roll 2 or higher on a d10 to increase his HP or reflex save, but roll a 6 or higher on a d8 to increase his spellcasting.
>In essence players have more options to build their character how they'd like, but they take a lot of gambles on wasting XP and don't level up at the same time so to speak taking a play from 1st and 2cd edition.

>>53965898
Except the System itself doesn't present that new information, which means you're relying on all the work other people have done figuring this out in order to try and patch the game into something playable.

>>53966031
So, at best, you're trying to act like your small complaint that people navigate around is enough to spend every day shitposting about how upset you are about other people playing a game you dislike?

Help me out. What's your favorite game.

>>53965898
>There's no excuse for any GM now to not understand this
I wish this was the truth, 3.5 is perfectly fucking playable when you have Warblades and Psionic Warriors and Binders in the same party, but there are sooooooo many dumb fuckers who don't know what they're doing, ignore things like the tier list, then act surprised when the game upends itself in front of them.

>>53966031
>2017
>Not knowing how the internet works

>>53963372
I had problems with many of the mechanics in D&D even before I had ever played D&D. It wasn't so much that I realized that it sucked as trying it only confirmed to me that, yes, it is indeed just as bad as I thought it was.

>>53965898
Some people just want to play a fighter and a wizard in the same party a they did way back in the old editions of D&D.

>>53964510
Depends on what you mean by high fantasy and what you want. BRP and GURPS are both generic systems which can handle high fantasy. Of the two, BRP is the simpler one but might also require a bit of tweaking to function for high fantasy as the default is pretty gritty and deadly.

If you want a more cinematic experience that's not as focused on combat you've also got Fate and Hillfolk which are more narratively driven systems with a lot of player input on the setting.

Burning Wheel falls somewhere in between.

>>53964130
>if your DM doesn't sink a bunch of hours into reading blogposts about how to fix the fundamentally broken aspects of the system before ever attempting to run the game then he's a shit DM
How much can a system get away with before you guys will admit it's got issues?

>>53966474
The edition where that gap was intentionally widened due to shitty design and then WotC made a bunch of replacement classes once they pulled their heads out of their asses is not the edition to do that in.

>>53963372
>level up
>monsters suddenly get tougher, nullifying your gains into a stupid attrition treadmill
>when did you realize every rpg was garbage

>>53966580
Of course it isn't, but no one knows that from the start. None of 3.PF ever comes clean with the issue - in fact they occaionally keep arguing the opposite, at the very least with all those "iconic" characters having just the sort of adventures with fighters and wizards side by side.

What the fuck are you supposed to make out of that? When the system just flat-out fails to do what everyone involved made it for, and claims it is for, then how can you make any kind of an excuse for that system to be any way good?

>>53966519
Can you name a system that doesn't have issues?

Hey. What's your favorite system.

>>53966628
Hey you.

What's your favorite system.

>>53966663
AD&D.

>>53966623
I mean, I'm sure a lot of DMs handle it that way, but I just populate my world with leveled stuff and leave it as is no matter what the players are. If the spooky forest has a level 15 monster in it and the group is level 3, it's on them if they decide to go after it and get fucked up.

>>53966674

>When the system just flat-out fails to do what everyone involved made it for, and claims it is for, then how can you make any kind of an excuse for that system to be any way good?

I think you're best not throwing stones when sitting in a house of glass then.

>>53963550
>Not playing a rogue

>>53966649
>all systems have the same amount of issues and all issues are equal
Please stop.

>>53966748
Hey now, if 3.PF is the glass house in this scenario, then AD&D at least has decent sturdy wooden walls to support it. Maybe with pretty big windows at most.

>>53966774
What's your favorite system.

>>53966800
Not relevant no matter how much you want it to be.

>>53966108
>>53966649
>>53966663
>>53966800
>all this damage control

>>53966776
I guess that's what people herald it as a shining example of clear, concise rules, well developed subsystems of exemplary balance, and useful and not-superfluous at all tables and charts.

Oh, wait. People regard it as an archaic oddity that only grognards cling to and hipsters bother to dust off.

AD&D is just flat-out fails to do what everyone involved made it for, and claims it is for.

Can you put on a trip already?

>>53966809
>>53966852

What's your favorite system though.

>>53966858
It's not as bad as 3.PF tho.

>>53966858
AD&D is generally regarded as an archaic oddity because people in fact completely misunderstand what it is made for.

So let me ask you: what do you think AD&D is made for?

>>53966879
Stars Without Number. I'll save you the trouble of googling up a blog post about everything that's wrong with it and pretending that somehow validates 3.PF, and just give you your (You)s upfront. Please enjoy:
>>53966879
>>53966879
>>53966879
>>53966879

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>>53963372
Pretty early, around the time the 2nd-ed Reprints happened. So I broadened my horizons and tried out countless other TTRPGs and realized they're all the same level of shit in subtly different ways. So I went back to playing D&D. I had the most people to play it with, like the genre conventions of medifan, and overall just found it to be no less bad than anything else at the time.

All in all, there's no real best game, just the ones that appeal to you most. so find one you like that you have people to play it with, pull that stick out of your ass, and have a fun.

>>53966649
Every system has issues. I have never played any other published system that require the same amount of homebrewing and patching to actually function.

>>53966663
Eon.

>>53966895
It's worse.
3.PF at least has a chance of being used well by a DM with access to the internet.

AD&D is just an old game that only appeals to a tiny minority of surviving players because it's got such outdated mechanics (like the saves, skill subsystems, and horrendous combat math) and is so inflexible that most people struggle using it for dungeon crawls where it does about as good as you'd expect a relic of several decades ago. You'd have been better off saying your favorite game was one of the more recent revamps, but even those fall into such a small niche of play that the only way you can enjoy them is if you go into the process thinking "Yeah, this game is gonna be awkward and clunky, but that's the style of old games."

>>53967015
Give us some of these fixes.

>>53966940
All right, Stars-Without-Number guy. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from and what your tastes are. It helps color your personal complaints and allows everyone to see what why you personally dislike the system.

>>53967040
A small niche of play that actually works in what it sets out to do is always vastly superior to a game that tries to appeal to everyone and completely fails at everything.

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>>53963372
Well you see Anon not everyone who plays is able to overcome their more autistic tendencies and as such find themselves unable to actually play out any kind of character development without it being written into the rules.

It is very sad.

>>53967218
>pic is a ginormous toad

this is getting too meta

>>53966474

Well with a good GM up until about level 6 that's fine. Things start to get a bit more expotentially out of control then. Hence the epic 6 system.

>>53967137
That's not what it was made for or what it was claimed to be for. It's simply been relegated into a small niche of self-defined play because that's all it can do and some people, for some reason, still want to play it.

It was supposed to be a system that could be used for a variety of fantasy genres, as evident by the variety of settings designed for the system, but it fails to do anything except a bizarre and wholly unique style of self-referential play that requires internal knowledge of the system and an open understanding of its many, many limits and failings. It's a system that only survives on life support because the people willing to play it go out of their way to create a style of play and a thoroughly retrospective approach that doesn't break apart with the fragile system.

Basically, glass house of the thinnest kind.

>>53967274
>It was supposed to be a system that could be used for a variety of fantasy genres
Completely and utterly wrong. The only thing AD&D was ever made for was dungeon exploration.

But it got popular, and a bunch of people wanted to try it for other fantasy things, to get out of the dungeons and go for other sort of adventures basically. So they did, and they designed a bunch of settings for them, and never really understood that it wasn't what AD&D was for at all, and that maybe they would've been better off designing a system completely from the ground up.

Then the 2nd edition of AD&D came along, tried to make the system support this sort of stuff, completely failed, and set the stage for the next big failure, the 3rd edition.

The 1st edition AD&D, however, still works fine if you stick to what it was made for. It wasn't "relegated" to some small niche of self-defined play - those sticking to it simply went right back to what worked, now that we've spent several decades getting all the extraneous bullshit out of our system.

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>>53963550
>>53963627
>>53963897

>>53967445
>Completely and utterly wrong. The only thing AD&D was ever made for was dungeon exploration.

No, that's the only set of rules that didn't fall apart.

I mean, are you stupid or something? Is the fighter going to haul his castle into the dungeon?

Shut the fuck up, you dumb grognard.

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>>53967556
>No, that's the only set of rules that didn't fall apart.
Because it came first. It was around which the entire thing was built from the ground up, and the first edition of AD&D had very few rules that didn't involve dungeon exploration in some way.

Take the castle bit you try to challenge me on, for instance. The fighter's castle is where he relaxes after dungeon crawls by eating well, taxing money from a bunch of peasants, and occasionally going to war if the DM wanted to bring up a bunch of Chainmail to it. It wasn't there for political intrigue or some other kind of epic plots they tried to add to it afterwards.

Your entire argument relies on a fundamental lack of understanding - wilful ignorance, perhaps - over cause and consequence, and trying to flip things around so that the wrong thing came first.

Furthermore, you bring this argument up in a very immature way.

>Shut the fuck up, you dumb grognard.
Nah. But I've started to sage so that we can at least keep the front page from seeing your embarrasment. I'd suggest you do the same if you insist on continuing this travesty of a debate.

>>53967682
Your entire argument relies on you ignoring not only how people played, but the rules that tried to support them. Remember that even Gygax and Arneson both ran games that extended far beyond the dungeon, involving politics and even mass warfare.

Willful ignorance? What would you call your attempt to essentially bowl over an obvious contradiction to your "it's all about the dungeon" bullshit like owning a fucking castle? Excuse me if I sound rude, but your "it's just for flavor, you're supposed to ignore it and focus on the dungeon" bullshit gives me absolutely no other recourse but to call you out as an idiot.

And yet, you still fucking tried. I'm sorry, but the one making a travesty of this "debate" is you.

>>53967837
I'm perfectly aware what Gygax and Arneson did and what the games used to run back in the day, but they never felt the need to stretch the system over that stuff as well: politics didn't have rules because it never needed any, being that it was almost entirely just roleplay, and for mass warfare Chainmail worked all right.

The rules for AD&D itself were brought out whenever they descended into dungeons, and whatever you may claim about how their campaigns did a bunch of other stuff as well, dungeon crawls happened a whole lot of times. The rest was just roleplay and winging it, stuff you've got perfectly good systems for these days if you need them, but not all of us do.

There's a reason literally every single AD&D module focuses on dungeon crawling rather than the woes of castle lives and princesses. It wasn't until Dragonlance and Ravenloft where that bullshit came in to ruin it for everyone.

>>53967076
Y-you too.

>>53965986
That's not balance, it's just making the imbalance harder to quantify.

>>53967974
>never needed any

Except for all the tables and charts for them.
You're going to tell me the infamous random Prostitute Chart was for the dungeon too? You play in some pretty kinky dungeons, friend.

>There's a reason literally every single AD&D module focuses on dungeon crawling
Focusing does not mean being exclusive to it. No one's arguing that AD&D didn't have dungeons on the mind (it's not called Discussion and Dialogue, after all). Your stupid insistence is that it was designed with only dungeon crawls as its full capacity, when almost every adventure includes a touch of politics here and there, wilderness exploration at times, information gathering, the whole debacle.

AD&D never tried to be limited. It, like every following edition, hoped to expand the options available for play while providing rules to assist in these efforts. Pretending otherwise is just flat out ignoring a fair amount of material in the books as well as the intentions of the creators, just because most of it wasn't particularly good and the game has largely been relegated to a rather specific niche since most people have moved on to later editions.

Keep in mind that the concept of "dungeon crawling" didn't really exist before in the same manner as it does in D&D, and developed as a natural result of how the rules shaped the game, not as an intentional goal. You're really adding your own personal interpretations to this whole business, and they're so far from the truth that I recommend that you actually read a little about the development of the game and the inspirations behind it before you try to use hindsight to retroactively redefine the intentions of the system.

I'm bored of this pasta, can we have something else?

>>53966519
It has issues. It's also not WAAAAAAAAAH, WURST SYSTEM EBER, BETTER MAKE 900 THREADS ABOUT HOW MUCH I HATE IT!!!!!!!!! material.

>>53966663
F.A.T.A.L.

>>53968473
Who's up for some fettuccine alfredo?

>D&D
Too many dice and shit.
I'm working on choose your own adventure stories much better narrative and no need to see people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMOPI-Cz4c0

>>53963914
>Your GM not explaining the tier system to you
the tier system was not core to 3rd edition

they presented both the Fighter and Wizard together in the same chapter as if they both belonged in the same game

>>53970352
>It has issues. It's also not WAAAAAAAAAH, WURST SYSTEM EBER,

But it's definitely the worst D&D edition. In fact it's the only bad one. I guess it's not as terrible as FATAL or whatever. So congratulations I guess, if that's really where you feel comfortable setting the bar.

>>53970540
clicked the video and now I'm invested, there's no link at the end of chapter two, is chapter three not made yet?

>>53970621
I agree 17 years ago they hadn't worked out the balance issues perfectly. They also purposefully released the game without telling people how to run it as it was designed as a toolkit.

The game then went through successive iterations and did improve but kept the general class tier balance.

Now we understand it and any good GM running the system can design using it accordingly.

And honestly from personal experience, having GMd and played in 3.5/PF, 4E and 5E for about ten years now I've never found the caster /fighter meme to be nearly as much of an issue as it's purported to be on internet forums based on white room situations. So much is a happening in games and I've found most players happy doing their own thing and grateful when their party members do something cool and help in the game. Likewise there's plenty you can do to mitigate it as a GM at the early stages it crops up as such as random encounters, providing better magic items for lower tier classes , actually targeting the wizard , scrolls of counter spell , time constraints so the party don't abuse long rests , not grouping all your goblins together so they all get colour sprayed, being flexible in terms of combat maneuvers for martial classes etc.

The only time playing I've had a complaint about wizards was ironically in 4E when my friend felt the wizard was able to do more damage with his fireball than his monk. In an edition that was meant to fix the problems , which says to me that maybe we shouldn't trust the most vocal whiny players to tell us how to play the game in the first place.

>>53963372
The moment I realized flat probability distributions lead to nothing but slapstick bungles and luckthrows. Only reinforced by the hordes of people on /tg/ who idolize geometric shapes over good statistical sense.

>>53970973
okay I figured it out, although forced march had a few typos you probably wanna fix

>>53970997
I think the caster/martial disparity really only comes into the forefront with bad players in that it helps out asses who try and control the game or act as the party face and lead the group without any feedback or consent from the others. It is a flaw in the system that it encourages bad behavior, but it's also one mitigated by the right group.

>>53966649
Burning Wheel

>>53971448
It gets really fucking bad in traditional D&D-esque campaigns where using everything you've got to survive is expected of the players.

>>53970997
>The only time playing I've had a complaint about wizards was ironically in 4E when my friend felt the wizard was able to do more damage with his fireball than his monk.
I believe you, but using an example of your friend being completely and utterly ridiculous doesn't really support your argument. Does he think 4E invented the fireball? Or that is was less powerful in 3.5? Or are you arguing that class balance DOES actually matter, but it's inverted so balanced systems are imbalanced than imbalanced systems?

>>53971520
Traditional D&D campaigns with adversarial DMs brings out the absolute worst in players and I'm glad it's dying off as the 'correct' way to play.

>>53970997
>when my friend felt the wizard was able to do more damage with his fireball than his monk

How? The monk has level 1 dailies that do almost as much damage (steel avalanche is 3d8 in burst 3) and then he gets to flurry on top of it.

I mean, blaster wizards are a thing, but unless you intentionally build your monk shitty he's going to be doing at least comparable damage.

>>53971588

I'm arguing that most people who play this game have a very limited idea of the game design behind it because they don't care what is happening beyond their little bubble of reference and for the most part they have fun. Most examples of games not being fun are due to toxic players or a toxic GM, not class tiers.

The only people who really care about this shit are character op posters/power gamers/ white room theory crafter's and general loud people on the internet and because they are the most vocal even if they're in a minority who play the game unfortunately slowly becomes catered to them as the memes spread.

Remember that the reason we got 4E in the first place was because of all those people who complained about balance in 3.5.

I've got a player in my current 5E game for example she's playing a two weapon fighting ranger and I'm not using the UA ranger. She's having loads of fun. I'm running a wilderness campaign where her abilities are highly releveant.

Unfortunately another player told her how shit the class is and nearly put her off the idea of playing it despite her really enjoying the class concept. He of course had never played with a ranger either, he'd just read it was weak on the forums. Not had he of course bothered to consider that my campaign might favour the class. Thankfully she went for it anyway and is having a blast.

I equally had another player play a beastmasters ranger raw and have loads of fun with it. Not once did she complain that her dpr was 2 points less per encounter per session than the fighter because most people don't give a shit.

This type of thing kills fun and player engagement honestly and turns a roleplaying game into some sort of competitive wargame which it isn't meant to be.

my favorite system anima has effectively perfect balance between the various types of characters, while still being fun, being a system where everyone can get a turn, and in-depth when it comes to character options/builds

If spanish weebs can mange it, why can't WOTC or paizo?

>>53971654
>felt the wizard
>How

It wasn't based on reality it was based on his feels which unfortunately a lot of class discussion is. It doesn't matter that for the last 3 encounters the wizard has cast only cantrips because he ended that one encounter with sleep and it felt bad my fighter couldn't hit things.

>>53971755
Nothing makes your Fighter being redundant compared to a damn animal companion fun.

>>53971755
To be fair, while 5E Ranger is weak, the scale of difference isn't anywhere near 3.5's. If you have a campaign that caters to them, their flavor and features can come into play way more often and still have a fun time. The only option that's always bad in 5e is the Monk's 4 Elements just because you don't have enough ki to do what you want consistently, 5e Ranger is just weak in comparison. But 3.5's character builds often only had one gimmick they could contribute with, and if that gimmick was negated (which was easily done) then they had absolutely nothing to offer for the game part of the game.

>>53971755
And I've had the opposite experiences. Nothing that completely put me off of a game, but it was a personally a huge bummer going from playing a 2e Fighter to a 3.5 Fighter. The rules do matter. They really, actually do, and the complaints about 3.5's complete lack of balance compared to every single other edition of D&D isn't restricted to internet memery.

>>53971755
>The only people who really care about this shit are character op posters/power gamers/ white room theory crafter's and general loud people on the internet and because they are the most vocal even if they're in a minority who play the game unfortunately slowly becomes catered to them as the memes spread.

This is such fucking bullshit and you know it. I had to suffer through a campaign where the druids goddamn wolf was a better combatant than my dex fighter as my first taste of 3rd edition. Then just a year ago I was in a PF campaign where the fighter was literally dead weight that we only dragged along because the DM made him important for the story. Every single combat he got BTFO'd by casting enemies.

>5e stuff

Yes, we know 5e martials are similar enough that there won't be too big differences between them. Having an animal companion that is little more than a fucking waste of space that can not do shit on its own still sucks.

>>53971799
Anima is a bloated broken as shit system that's even worse than 3.5. I'd honestly rather play 3.5/PF with high system mastery players than that garbage.

>>53965513
Oh no, it's retarded

>>53971869
>Anima is a bloated broken as shit system
Do you have some examples?

>>53971869
>I had to suffer through a campaign where the druids goddamn wolf was a better combatant than my dex fighter

Well duh, OBVIOUSLY you should've waited to consult the Holy Tiers Chart(tm) which fixes the class balance issue, except it doesn't because class balance is unimportant except to charop people, except when it does because something something 4E fireballs

Your fault really for ASSUMING that Fighters belonged in a party with spellcasters. What did you think this was D&D or something?

>>53971883
In the Amazon, there are tribes yet to come into contact with the outside world who can use memes better than you

>>53971869
anima is by defualt less broken than 3.5 because martials can do things besides swing their limp dicks around, and casters not only don't have "you automatically learn the two best spells for free on level up" but has a ton of rules to limited how they learn and use spells

>>53971869
>I had to suffer through a campaign where the druids goddamn wolf was a better combatant than my dex fighter as my first taste of 3rd edition.

Why do you need your fighter to be better than your friend's animal companion? You're starting to sound like one of those white room Charop people. Roleplaying and immersion is about more than being good in a fight. Just stay in your bubble of reference, say "I attack" once a turn, and be happy with what your friends are doing to help you. This isn't a competitive wargame, just focus on the immersive roleplaying experience as it unfolds before you. Consider this an exciting opportunity to explore your character's depth of emotions, his insecurity at being outperformed at his only job by literally a dog.

sike! although this is what 3.5 apologists actually believe.

>>53970352
>constant stream of threads about how bad it is
>neckbeards can't defend it so they resort to hyperbole and "I AM SILLY!" instead

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

>>53972757
>i make shitty threads in hope of pretending the system is disliked by more than a few trolls
>people ignore me, tell me to fuck off, or destroy my pathetic arguments

Where there's this OP, there's faggotry.

>>53973101
Fuck off.

>>53973196
Looks like a struck a nerve.

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>>53963372
>Huh
HUH

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>>53965474
Like this?

>>53971636
I was there in the trenches competitive events in the heyday of AD&D. I was never the right way to play, and hasn't been a common way since the 90s.

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>>53967251
Believe it or not I did not know about the earlier toad comments till I looked back through the thread.

I'll shill for Savage Worlds though. Bennies are skub but I myself favor them for they are a lovely positive reinforcement tool to encourage daring action and good role play with mechanical benefit. They do require quite a bit of experience for a GM to utilize properly.

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As soon as I discovered Hankerin Ferinale, one or two years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdNfWLwyvY

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>>53963372
>level up
>get skill points
>put them into bluff and toehr cha based skills
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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>>53979266
>skill points
>good for anything at all
>dnd

>>53979266
>>53981897
>necromancing your sad thread by replying to yourself

OP, you are the saddest faggot.

>>53964374
>4th is a blank enough slate you can reskin it in a million ways. I've run it as mechs, as sci fi, as high fantasy, as more or less modern, all with only minor tweaking
If say youre full of shit, but you probably did this and it probably worked about as well as d20 modern, but you convinced yourself it was good because "muh 4e".

>>53964659
This. OP what you want is Dungeon World

It's pretty much the best RPG currently out there. It has fast easy to use mechanics and is perfect for beginners, it's a lot cheaper than most of these other rules bloated systems that cost fifty dollars. There is no reason for extra rules when it is he role playing that matters. Dungeon World is fast and innovative and still feels

exactly like the spirit of ADND before DnD 3.5 destroyed the hobby and ruined a generation of role players.

You want fast, intuitive combat? Dungeon World does that.

You want real, deep roleplaying mechanics? Dungeon World does that.

You want great mechanics that reward diversity of play? Dungeon World does that as well.

My last session of Dungeon World my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window. This is real roleplaying we are talking about here, not babby 3.5 shit. Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of Dungeon World today. Look at www.dungeonworldsrd.com to get started.

>>53965449
Culutral awareness, not rules quality.

>>53970844
>But it's definitely the worst D&D edition.

No. 4e and AD&D 1e and 2e are equally bad.

>>53971869
>druids goddamn wolf was a better combatant than my dex fighter
Thats what you get to making a dex fighte in a campaign where Deadly Agility is not allowed.

>>53978762
I really would not suggest playing Savage Worlds. It is a badly designed system with terrible meta-mechanics that encourage not only metagaming but ending session early, it also makes it near impossible for characters to fail at anything. The gun mechanic are broken, and literally do not make sense. The only thing it is good for is being a miniatures wargame, and it even sucks at most of that. Exploding dice make stupid shit happen constantly, the damage is way overkill for 90% of the threats allowing characters to one-shot massive creatures with tiny weapons. On the other end, characters literally cannot fail, because they have three bennies per session which allow them to reroll whatever the fuck they want (not damage rolls, to be fair, but still). And the GM is told he is a piece of shit if he doesn't hand out more bennies for "good roleplaying" (in other words, stupid nat20-lolz bullshit). Also the characters get to roll a wild die with their normal roll and take the wild die if it is higher, thus making them even less likely to fail at anything. Not to mention the cancer of the bennies being basically a safe-space for retarded character actions, CAN and WILL spread to other RPGs you play with this group. Just count down the sessions until your character asks during D&D after failing a roll "can I have a bennie"? No, get fucked faggot. Failure is an important part of RPGs and Savage Worlds throws that shit out the window.

>>53970352
Problem with 3.PF is that is incredible popular (most games you'll find are 3.PF ones) and has tons of problems that either make people back the fuck out because they didn't enjoy shit or become That Guys.

>>53965677
Making experience requirements level throughout classes was a mistake.
A level 2 wizard =/= level 2 fighter
But the experience needed to get to level 2 as a fighter is far less than the experience needed to be a level 2 wizard.

>>53963898
why cops do it every day

>>53963825
>I want unarmed combat to be as valid as combat using armors and weapons
And even worse
>I want that punches are as equally powerful as controlling reality with the magical arts
Go play an anime rpg if you don't like realism

>>53963942
you dont get it, the meme is to hate dnd

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>>53982270
>I want dweebs with cheap parlor tricks to be stronger in combat than trained soldiers with armor and weapons

Are you even listening to yourself?

>>53982329
It's bait.

>>53982329
>Wizard
>Parlour tricks
Try harder

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>>53982270
>D&D
>Realism

>>53978827
Love 'em

>>53978762
Savage Worlds is fucking fantastic.

>>53982270
How come realism only affects martials and not casters, though? Doesn't it ruin your suspension of disbelief when a guy can make magic appear out of thin air with just words and gestures?

>>53982380
He is literally baiting you.

>>53982270
The sad part is that I'm not completely sure this is bait, I've seen to many retards who think like this in my life in the hobby. People who genuinelly believe magic > rest

>>53982329
Give me ONE example from real world history of a Fighter defeating a powerful Vancian sorcerer. That's right, you can't. That's because it's unrealistic and immersion-shattering for a mere brainlet like the Fighter to even compete with a practitioner of the magick arts.

>>53982400
Easy on the butter anon.

>>53982393
So?

>>53963825
>GM can't stop saying how stronk and powerful my char is
>Never see that reflected in game
I hate when that stuff happens, you strive for greatness and don't even meet average competence. This seems to be fate martials are relegated to in 3.PF

>>53963372
>OP
That's weird. OP's post is almost trying to imply that playing other RPGs make you better at roleplaying.

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>>53963497
Underrated post.
But what is truly best is when you go on a real life awesome adventure, then when winding down for the night you bust out a few brews and play an adventure game outside by tiki torchlight innawoods.
That shit was awesome.

>>53963546
I've often wondered that myself--clearly it's all the same guy making this shitpost on the daily.. But what could make him so ass-maliced over DnD? It's a really okay game.
That's pretty much all that needs to be said.
People have fun with it, but it isn't the best out there.

>>53982787
>But what could make him so ass-maliced over DnD?
They played martials, monks and paladins especially

>>53982787
>It's a really okay game.
kek.

>>53982075
>DnD 3.5 destroyed the hobby and ruined a generation of role players
Is all in your mind anon. Let it go.

>>53966623
Depends on the GM/DM. Some don't have directly scaling level ratios. I don't. Having creatures and enemies be the same level as you most of the time is unrealistic

>>53984047
It's a pasta anon, get some Parmesan.

>>53965449
>COINCIDENCE?!
You can control what people use by controlling what they know.

Big 3 (once 4, once 5 and once 6) music labels make a living out of this idea

>>53966809
Nice avoiding the question out of fear of another's opinion.
Get bent, Faggotron.

>tfw banned from fresh campaigns because my roleplaying is already max level

Being too intelligent is a burden

>>53982380
>How come realism only affects martials and not casters, though?

Because magic and science are unrelated things.

The fact that christian god can move faster than light dont make us able to do it

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>>53984499

>>53970844
DnD doesn't need to be defended. It's the most successful Table Top RPG of all time.
It wins.
Sorry anon.
Cry moar.

>>53984499
Magic is science and vice versa.

>>53963372
When other people started telling me how to feel about it, it's a good thing I didn't take time to think on the pros and cons of a system and just listened to what other people said.

>>53984812
So, besides market share and brand recognition, what advantages does AD&D2e have over other RPGs? D&D3.X? 4e? 5e?

>>53982400
Houdini

>>53984871
Wizards aren't going to dominate all aspects of the game.

>>53982400
You have never read Celtic Mythology? Viking mythology? Never looked at Chinese myths?

You're an illiterate moron?

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>>53982075
DungeonWorld is murderhoboism and is possibly the least useful thing ever for RPG purposes aside from 4e.

>>53965536
It's based on Apocalypse World you dumb fuck

>>53984738
I hate you so much.

>>53985079
I don't think DW is Gygax's second coming, but I'm pretty sure every single point in that image is wrong, or at the very least, half true at best.

>>53971982
I've been curious about anima class balance. Please, if you don't mind explaining, what do you like about the class balance in Anima?
That sounds like they handled balance perhaps a little better.

>>53973196
Get a life, you ever-trolling Jizz stain.

>>53981897
Nice bad post. Eat shit and die.

>>53983855
I know, it's hilarious that anyone thinks otherwise. Glad you agree.

>>53985670
I was laughing at you anon.

>>53985522
Classes are just guides in where to spend your points, they have some stuff that is cheaper and other stuff that is expensier depending on the class, but ultimately it's you who spends your points.

You can be a sorcerer and don't be able to use magic (because you didn't buy "gift" feature that allows you to cast magic). You can be a warrior and be as flashy and casty as a wizard because you decided to go the ki DBZ route (in fact you can also buy "gift" and have magic, but it will be expensier for you, while for sorcerer ki will be expensier as magic is expensive for you)

>>53982787
More like some GMs are able, despite its flaws, to turn it into an okay game, but that speaks about how good are those GMs rather thant he system.

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>join PF game
>roll a barbarian
>everyone else has magic of some kind
>GM tries to get me to take a class with magic
>fuck that noise I want to rip and tear
>everyone meta games to have their characters make fun of mine for not having magic

WOW DIDN'T KNOW I WAS PLAYING MAGE THE AWAKENING

>>53985522
I could go into more detail if you want, but to keep it brief:

Anima's main three types of Special Powers (ki techniques, magic, psychic powers) work on a bit of of a sliding scale between how often you can use a move, how easy it is to obtain the move and how powerful it is that synergize well with eachother and prevent the "one character resolves the fight while everyone else watches" problem that a lot of systems run into. For example, in order to cast spells at all in anima you need to spend 2 out of your starting 3 perk points (you can get more by taking pretty serious handicaps, and can only pick them at chargen). Since you'll also wanna get perks that do stuff like increase the rate you regenerate MP you'll need to not take more generalist perks that are still really useful or take a shitload of crippling penalties (stuff like "I have a huge EXP penalty" or being blind) in order to get all the things you want. Meanwhile a completely mundane martial character can just spend all his perks on a bunch of useful stuff and maybe just has a penalty where he's addicted to alcohol or something.

Anima combat is often extremely deadly and there's a lot of modifiers/tactical options that are actually strong you can take advantage of, which means more normie characters just need a couple good hits and they can take down people (something helped by their bigger focus on skills and the open rolling mechanic)

Animas system is extremely open ended in terms of how you can build your character, which combined with how basically every potential type of character has some sort of crazy shit they can pull it makes it pretty hard to actually make a bad character.

In spite of all it's options anima has a lot of rules and GM suggestions in the books on ways to limit characters power in order to keep things low level (which doesn't really handicap anyone specifically but just keeps all characters at a lower but equal level).

That was longer than I wanted.

>>53985079
That image is retarded. I was going to post a point by point refutation after I read the first few but then I read the rest and decided it's not worth the effort.

>>53985155
No, they're pretty fucking accurate.

DW is literally babby's first RPG, and it doesn't improve with more play, it gets more and more obvious how truly awful it is at being an RPG.

>>53985912
>I can't actually refute any of this
>so I'll just say I could and pretend my opinion matters
Go on.

>>53985843
>IT'S THE SYSTEMS FAULT NOT THE PEOPLE I PLAY WITH!
Dude, that shit can happen in any RPG. You're playing with assholes. At least be honest.

>>53985980
Not much needs to be said. The person who wrote the image is stupid.
>They add nothing to the game, and replace creative action like "I'm going to try to knock a bookshelf over on the goblin" with "I'm going to use + Cha to Defy Danger against him"
The writer clearly is assuming the player is getting to choose the modifier and the skill that is used for the roll.
That's not how it works and he's stupid for thinking so.
What ACTUALLY happens is the player describes an action, then the DM tells the player what they are rolling. What that image says is happening is pretending that you metagame RAW telling the DM what you want to roll.

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>2017
>people have been complaining about martials not being on par with casters for decades
>WotC too pussy to do something real about it
>all because some insecure neckbeards have a pathological hateboner for chinese cartoons
>you want to play as Conan?, fuck you, play as regular guy with a metal stick for eternity

>>53982787
>But what could make him so ass-maliced over DnD?
it's the most popular game, so shitting on it gathers most (You)s/thread replies
Try shitting on some ironclaw or ryuutama and like 2 dudes will bat an eye

>Play a couple of times but never further than 3-4 level
>First time surpassing that
>8th level monk with """godly""" stats (one 20, one 18, two 16s, rest 12-14s)
>For a couple of levels I feel like I'm not accomplishing shit unless the casters dump spells on me and sometimes not even that
>They realized that and started to use spells for stuff instead of wasting them on me
>Monsters have more attacks than Hit points I have and literally pass my defenses on 2s
>Nomatter where I look there's nothing that will help me be on equal level to the casters, or at least have fun instead of being the punching bag for one turn and then a dead weight till I wake up every encounter ever

>>53963550

>If

>>53985727
Nah you were just laughing with me. There's no reason to laugh at me--since I'm right, and all.
Your opinion is both outclassed and objectively wrong.
Get fucked.

>>53985733
That actually sounds really cool. I hate when classes are used as a rigid, arm-wrenching mechanic that absolutely sucks the fun out of character progression.
Much better to use them sort of like a spring-board for your character concept imo.

>>53985776
True, but flawed or not--I would never flat out refer toDnD as "bad". Now FATAL, that is a bad system.

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>>53986668
>No reason to laugh at me

>>53985901
I really appteciate you taking the time to write this out, anon--from what you describe, the game sounds really great. Sounds to me like it has a good fluff/crunch ratio and plenty of interesting options to stave off repetitive battle tactics as well (something my group is starving for)

>>53986837
Let me give you a warning. Anima is pretty tricky to actually learn because it's both complicated at first (but once you get the process its easy to automate) and it just sort of has a bad english translation. Try to find the pdf that lists the rule revisions the second version had "core exett" because that never even got published in english

The lore and general aesthetic is also very, for a lack of a better word, weaboo, in a way that you'll either find kind of endearing or extremely offputting

>>53986723
I consider a game with trap options in where they literally shut down your fun as a pretty flawed system.

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>>53963463
most underrated post on all of 4chan right now desu senpai

>>53986230
Okaaay... Well why does anon require so much goddamned attention over stupid topical shit?
For fuck's sake, did his parents never hold him as a baby or some shit? Now he needs extra attention from rando neckbeards on the daily?
I'm just so sick of this thread. Last time I'm dispensing a (you) pn one of these..

>>53982212
This pasta is stale Anon.

>terrible meta-mechanics that encourage not only metagaming but ending session early
Like it was said earlier bennies are very much skub and with good reason given that while they do fuel the pulpy shenanigans Savage Worlds wants too many bennies leads to the "almost impossible to fail at anything" problem you talk about. I will still never understand why people think it ends the game early as that sounds more like a problem with the players as opposed to a problem with the system.

>The gun mechanic are broken, and literally do not make sense.
I would like to hear more details on your thoughts about guns in SW.

>Exploding dice make stupid shit happen constantly
Granted. I prefer the rapid escalation of things but can very much understand why some hate it.

>allowing characters to one-shot massive creatures with tiny weapons
That is why you make anything truly giant have an appropriate toughness modifier or heavy armor.

>the GM is told he is a piece of shit if he doesn't hand out more bennies for "good roleplaying" (in other words, stupid nat20-lolz bullshit)
Not really. In the core book there is some solid advice given for handing out bennies and in every instance the player has to do something that positively contributes to the game which is not exactly "stupid nat20-lolz bullshit".

>Wild die
Gives that heroic feeling but again, I understand the disdain some have for it.

>bennies = a safe-space for retarded character actions
If you are a shit GM then yes. If a player wants to attempt something nearly impossible I will let them know this, ask if they want to do it, and watch as they flush all their bennies down the drain while I smile.

>>53986802
Ah, the indicative sign that you are a retard and have no argument. This is your last (you), please either get good or eliminate yourself from existence.

>>53987048
Avoid trap options.
Have you tried getting good at the game or are you just some fucking asshole with a big mouth?

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>>53987406
>he's being serious

>>53987433
Oh, so it was a bait, man, I almost thought you were stupid.

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>>53987433
It would seem the only asshole here is you anon.

Try relaxing and being a better person.

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>>53987459
OHH HO HO
THOU WERE BAMBOOZLED.

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>>53987559

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>>53966299
Come on, anon. Samurai and wizard would work just fine in the same party.

>>53966623
>monsters suddenly get tougher, nullifying your gains into a stupid attrition treadmill

Sort of. Things like attack bonus and armor class do suffer from that, however unique mechanics don't. For example, the ability to do area of effect damage versus only single target damage (Fireball vs Magic missile). Or when you finally get teleport, or planeshift, or fabricate etc. Or when the fighter learns improved trip and is now able to effectively kick the legs out from under his opponents.

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>>53987798
>Samurai and wizard would work just fine in the same party.

>>53963627
Tried that,
Most experience I get when I level up is cleaning, paperwork, staring at sandy dunes, alcohol tolarance, and get my ass plastered by the big green weeny.

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>>53963372
>level up
>get better at fighting
>don't get better at roleplaying

Except you do. You gain skill points every level which can be used in any of these particularly RP relevant skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Slight of hand, Intimidate, Sense motive, Gather Information, Disguise, Forgery, and Appraise. Other skills can be used in RP as well, but these are most often used.

>>53985057
>real world history
>a powerful Vancian sorcerer.
the joke was "powerful Vancian sorcerers" don't exist irl historically so it's stupid to complain that caster supremacy is somehow related to ~realism~

>>53984686
>It's the most successful Table Top RPG of all time.

which is why it gets shit on so much. 3.5 isn't the worst system out there, there are plenty of worse games like FATAL. But it absolutely is the system with the biggest disparity between popularity and actual quality

People happily roast other shitgames like FATAL but when it comes to 3.5 they perform insane mental gymnastics to justify all its issues like "game mechanics don't matter in roleplaying games" or "balance is unbalanced" or "caster supremacy is realistic" or "well it's popular so obviously it's doing something right"

>>53986081
nobody's that dumb, the whole thing is very obviously a troll, what's sad is I'm pretty sure people are parroting it unironically as if it's some brilliant deconstruction

>>53964026
>skill challenges

Come on, that shit is indefensible.

>>53971831
>5E Ranger is weak
UA bitch, ranger got reworked and is now pretty strong. Still not as strong as cleric, druid, wizard but he's now extremely good in early levels and for campaigns focusing on survival.

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>>53982787

GURPS is best

>>53964510
Anima, the way to balance bullshit is to give everyone bullshit!

>>53990287
>Learn gurps
>Stroll into university
>Walk into math PhD class
>Solve problems, call teacher a D&D brainlet
>Pass by aeronautics and mechanical engineering design and redesign everything so it's not shit AND costs less points

desu this is what I do before DM'ing gurps to get on gear.

>>53989574
It's not.

But even if you don't want to use them, you still got the same skill system as 5e, except better scaling.

>>53964012
You fight like a dairy farmer!