Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting

>>53934802
+2 dexterity does not a sniper make

Also, firearms combat through history has pretty much never been about accuracy, it has been about volume of fire, positioning, and distance. Otherwise, why didn't militia through history train everyone to be marksmen?

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Oh look, it's this thread again.

>>53934802
Not every elf gets to be a hero. For every Zaytsev elf, there are gonna be like 4 private pyle elves.

also good eyesight does not necessarily mean a good shot. and bad eyesight does not mean a bad shot.

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>>53934802
> Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting with firearms?
Can you even imagine how terrifying Slavs would be in a setting with firearms?

>>53934802
I couldn't imagine them getting over the fact that guns are fucking loud when they are fired

>>53934901
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_(infantry)

>>53934969
I'm sorry, what is your point?

>>53934934

This, I have 14/13 vision but can still hit a paper plate at 80 yards. Past that, I can't see to shoot.

>>53935027
"Never" is a really strong word.

>>53934802
tolkienesque elves who are superior to man in very way? sure that would be scary

>>53934969
you need line infantry to support Jagers or they are just gonna get bayonet charged or ran down with calvary.
They aren't really superior or a gamechanger or anything like that.

>>53935118
>sure that would be scary
Yeah, if it was still the Third Age.

>>53934934
>>53935084
>DEX suddenly doesn't govern ranged weapon anymore
>because elves aren't allowed to have that
Good thread.

>>53935121
>Also, firearms combat through history has pretty much never been about accuracy
As I said, "never" is a really strong word.

>>53934802
Did you just want to put an elf in the catalog again, but this time one that wouldn't get so easily deleted?

>>53934901
>Otherwise, why didn't militia through history train everyone to be marksmen?
because it's expensive and time consuming to equip an entire army as marksmen, not because it's necessarily a bad idea. Not everyone in the army is trained to be a heavy machine gunner either, and they are the small firearm with the greatest volume of fire.

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>>53934802
>muh firearms
LMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO

>>53934934

I imagine it's more the case that those dedicated to the art of war fighting will be vastly more terrifying individuals.

I mean, the way the Eldar do their military is about what I imagine would be bog standard across most (if not all) forms of elves. And given the various stereotypical assumptions made when using "elves" it's more than likely they will try to focus on taking out HVT and infrastructure so make sure your generals and officers have breddy good protection or they all receive bullets to the noggin.

>>53934802
Pretty much. It would make those woven forests hard ro conquer even moving into the modern age, though would also restrict elves to more defensive guerilla tactics that favor their forested terrain.

Magic can help dull things like artillery, bombs, and fire that would blast chunks out of the forest.

>>53934901
> Otherwise, why didn't militia through history train everyone to be marksmen?
They did though, from WW1 onwards.
Before that, only light infantry bothered to aim individually and use cover.
After it, everyone became light infantry.

>>53934802
What is artillery?

>>53935241
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovHKofip6s

>>53935135
I avoid any race being straight up superior to others because that is stupid and boring.

>>53935311
Something the Russians called in on Simo and it still didn't work

>>53935314
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOTsMHTwshg

>>53935314
>>53935350
[muffled Fortunate Son in the distance]

>>53935259
This is what I liked about the Fall from Heaven 2 mod and the various submods for Civ4: Both elf factions are great for building pretty big realms filled with forests and even better ancient forests, both can field sizable armies. Their preferred units aren't that great for attacking enemy territory and lose a lot of bonusses there. But they are hard to take out in their own territory, fast moving through the woods, with a lot of extra attacks, can summon treants.

>>53935333
>having some + DEX means they are superior
Anon, I really hope you also shit on dwarves, orcs... humans.

>>53935333

But in 90% of the systems every race is better than other races at something.

>>53934934
Gonna stop you right there.

Elves are accurate. That's one of their things. They have better hand eye coordination than humans, better senses, etc. They are just naturally good at hitting targets.

Private Pyle elves are not really possible because the concept of elves includes being naturally accurate and swift. Take this away and you're not really talking about elves anymore.

>>53934901
>muh DnD

Funny really.

>firearms combat through history has pretty much never been about accuracy

Tell that to Brits fighting Afghans with jazzails.

>>53935422
This. Elves would have great snipers, sure. But Dwarves would be experts with trenches, tanks, and other things that take advantage of their small but sturdy nature and knack for engineering. Similarly, Orcs would be lugging around Heavy machine guns as their standard infantry rifle.

>>53935135

This anon here, >>53935084, I've got shit perception, but my dexterity is decent. I'd be a much better shot if I could see properly, but in my opinion, dexterity is much more important than perception for mid-ranged weaponry.

>>53935501

Good thing elves have both then.

>>53935346
You're a fucking retard honestly. Sure elf snipers would be tough special forces but they are only good at fighting infantry and only in fights of attrition or mobility. Snipers can't really hold ground, take ground, or lead assaults. At best they can harass lone patrols at great risk. Poke at enemy positions at great risk. Tanks, artillery, and air power are pretty much invincible to snipers and exceptionally dangerous. Elf snipers would not be able to degrade enemy positions without a conventional ground force in close support or else planes or tanks would simply push them out.

Simo's legendary accomplishments where exceptionally rare, likely very exaggerated, and regardless he was almost killed by artillery as expected.

Imagine an elf fighting force composed of 1/10th the number of their enemies going largely unsupported and comprised mostly of sharp shooters. There isn't any meat, it's just an army of spec ops. Elves would be more valuable as jet fighter pilots, at least in comparison to men.

>>53935483
Dwarves and Elves wouldn't grasp the concept of mass production or would look down on it, though. Dwarves have that obsessive drive to continually perfect their craft, and Elves make everything into an art form. Elves would probably make beautiful, effective but unique firearms (think Jezails or Tanegashima muskets) and Dwarves excellent heavy guns, but they probably wouldn't move past that into mass production. That seems like something Humans and Orcs/Hobgoblins would appreciate more.

>>53935501
Yeah, that's nice and all. But it's implied that we are talking about how DnD handles DEX, which also includes perception. You can have good reasons for disliking this system, but this isn't exatcly what this thread is about. It's pretty much consens that across multiple settings elves are great shots. This is what OPs idea of a thread is build upon. Make another thread where you bitch about a system.

>>53935526
>>53935541
We had this in another thread we some anons came to the conclusion that in this kind of warfare elves and dwarves both would probably not want to partake in all these conflicts that take heavy tolls and are better suited for faster breeding races. Both would probably do best at arming their citizens, be reclusive in some good to defend environment, stay neutral and make it in general a bad idea to invade these places, to the point that it isn't worth it. So, Switzerland.

>>53935609
Fantasy races with modern weapons is one of those topics that will endlessly be discussed and rediscussed on /tg/ forever.

>>53935609
Yeah, which fits well with what theyre suited for. Dwarves would have great forts and great weapons like they always do, and Elves would be obnoxiously impossible to root out from their forest as you lose a ton of soldiers and support staff to snipers every day

>>53935609
that sounds about right. An elven nation would have to rely on more subtle forms of power like spy craft and diplomacy. They'd get curb stomped by blitzkrieg style invasions, assuming they have centralized cities or military complexes (which would seem necessary in modernizing society). They simply wouldn't have the manpower to prevent armored advances supported by arty and air power. They could run an effective guerilla campaign if their country was occupied, but without a fast growing populace the dynamic might not be sustainable.

>>53935422
Well theres stats, and then there is how they are treated in the fluff. Damn near every fantasy setting I know of has Elves as pound for pound superior to Humans and only undone by their lack of numbers.

>>53934802
>Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting with firearms?

What is the difference between elves and humans other than pointy ears?

They have lighter internal organs?

>>53935646
Napalm would be seriously hard to deal with for forest based elven resistance.

One wonders if simply burning the forest indiscriminately might force Elves into a disasterous offensive.

>>53935777
That's probably what leads to a wild hunt.

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>>53935777
DOW chemical don't give a shit about your forest.

>>53935760
Well, most typically, they have improved eyesight, much like a bird of prey. They also usually have keener senses of hearing, though less drastic of a difference there. In terms of physique, I would say they have denser muscles, which gives them a similar level of strength to a human while being more wiry, while also likely having hollow bones.

>>53935809
I only know about it in TES, what is the DnD version of the wild hunt like?

>>53935777
>>53935820
Depends on if magic can counteract it. I'd imagine some Elven druids would be able to help mitigate a lot of attempts at total war that would threaten the forest itself

>>53935777
Napalm is obviously devastating to anybody actually in the forest at the time, but don't overestimate its impact. In Vietnam, after sustained bombing by the US, only about 1% of Vietnam's forests were obliterated by Napalm and munitions combined, though 40% was damaged in some way, and this was the United States, one of the two superpowers in the world.

Assuming whatever nation fighting the elves gains air superiority, actually just burning down the forest is going to be an incredibly slow and costly process. Certainly not something that the US public could eventually stomach.

>>53935837
Honestly don't know, was thinking about the warhammer fantasy wild hunt of Orion.

>implying in a setting with firearms elves would be more terrifying than dwarves
Yes, every elf would be a natural marksman, but the logistics, production, and birthrate to maintain recruitment and even more importantly supply of their armies. Elves are notorious for being vulnerable to attrition between their lithe or "flimsy" figures and constant flights of fancy.

>>53935855
I imagine if magic exists in the setting, and is powerful enough to counter blanket deforestation it would likely have its own counters as well. Magic seeking air to surface missiles homing in on Druidic rituals for example.

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>>53934901
No but living for hundreds of years at peak physical prime does. But way to miss the point of the OP post fucknuts.

>>53934901

>Not having a young elf clan having ridiculously fancy rifles with magic spells and all as their weapon of choice.

>>53935895
Dwarves aren't particularly fast breeding either.

>>53935895
>Elves are notorious for being vulnerable to attrition between their lithe or "flimsy" figures and constant flights of fancy
Give me one canon instance of that.

>>53935096
>>53935166
>Pretty much never
>Pretty much

>>53935240
>Not everyone in the army is trained to be a heavy machine gunner either, and they are the small firearm with the greatest volume of fire.
>Heavy machine guns
>Small arms
>Guns that require two people to carry and shoot the biggest round
>Guns that need to be in a mounted stationary position
>Small arms

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Not having psycho deaf elven tribes stalking the party with their rifles.

>>53935941
You can replace heavy machine gunner with light machine gunner and the point still stands.

>>53935899
Depends on what the exact counter is. Either way, fighting elder Druids on their own turf is not going to go well.

Also, if you could have magical air to surface missiles, the elves could also have surface tp air sniper rounds that home in on the skulls of enemy pilots and pierce through glass.

At that point though it's just a game of who can make up the most BS magic, so I'll stick with the idea that Druids would be able to sufficiently protect a forest against total annihilation, since thats literally the 1 job they have

>>53935955
That's just a gun.

>>53935895
>seismic surveys from orbit
>tallboy/bunker busters caving in whole dwarven installations
Let's be honest, modernity would be as shitty for dwarves as it would be for elves.

>>53935941
Any man portable weapon is considered a "small arm". General purpose machine guns like the mg42 are therefor "small arms", despite being crew operated at the squad level and found mounted to vehicles. Weapons like this have generally always been considered since their introduction to be the most decisive small arms on the battlefield. Far more than say sniper rifles.

>>53934802
>Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting with firearms?


You can just convert them to phoenix command and test.
PS: Phoenix command is a military rpg made by a guy that works for nasa.


Actually you can convert it to sword path glory (fantasy game even more detailed made by same guy) and use a mix of sword path glory and phoenix command rules.
With height at adulthood and weight at this age, you find his str and size state.
With max speed at this age, str and size stat, you find his speed stat.
With amount of time needed to reach max speed you find his dextery stat.
With height, weight and amount of time he can stay standing up without needing to rest/sleep, you can find his endurance stat and health stat.

What is left is charisma, willpower, motivation, telepathic sensitivity, intelligence, leadership, teaching ability.

>>53934901
>+2 dexterity does not a sniper make
It kind of does.
It is a +1 to attack.
So assuming some kind of dnd, 1 level elf:
In 3pf have attack bonus of 1 level fighter and weapon proficiency rifle(as bows were dropped), 1 level fighter is a good as 1st level human fighter with weapon focus in rifles.
1st level fighters are considered trained professionals, so fighter with weapon focus in rifle would be squad marksman.
Common elf fighter would reach the same level of skill as human marksman and could easily surpass him.

>>53936029
Arguably that's the result of trends in warfare towards urban warfare, which does favor portability and rate of fire. In Afghanistan and Iraq, both the Soviet Union (in the former) and the United States (in both) began adding designated marksmen to squads due to the less urban nature of insurgency and longer engagement ranges.

>>53934934
Pyle's only talent was that fact that he ended up good with his rifle, wtf is your analogy? Unless you mean the actual Gomer Pyle from Andy Griffith, but I don't think he was a private, so.

I love how OP's suggestion implies WW 2 level tech, and the, everyone giving reasons why it wouldn't work are assuming more modern things like jets, missiles, napalm, and bunker busters.

Yeah, no shit all that stuff would take out WW2 era elves and dwarves easily

>>53934802
It already exists, its called Switzerland

>>53936083
The tallboy/grand slam is a world war II invention. As is napalm/firebombs.

>>53936060
Notably no one abandoned the gpmg. A squad without a gpmg is literally considered to be out of action. Designated marksmen are useful in countersniping but do not add much to the fighting ability of a squad outside of this niche use.

It's really hard to fight conventional squads without a gpmg if they have one (or two) because of the oppressive nature of accurate suppressive fire and how that easily limits mobility. One of the primary tools in defeating snipers is the gpmg and it's ability to suppress a position and allow it to be advanced upon without much threat of reprisal.

>>53936029
>Weapons like this have generally always been considered since their introduction to be the most decisive small arms on the battlefield.
But that's not completely true. The Maxim Gun was far less decisive than the Lee-Enfield against the Boers; the Dreyse and Chassepot made a far bigger difference in the Franco-Prussian War than the Mitrailleuse. Where the engagement favors range the automatic weapon becomes less important.

In World War I trench lines were sometimes as close together as 30 yards and at most a few hundred yards; in World War II battles were fought house to house. That's where automatic weapons are decisive.

>>53936124
Tanks, planes and artillery all effectively are hard counters to harassing snipers.

>>53934960
>As a fun little side effect, hearing protection and noise reduction for firearm use is greatly advanced both for and by elves

>>53936153
from the mg42 onwards the primacy of the gpmg is undeniable.

>>53935434

Haven't watched Full Metal Jacket in years but wasn't Private Pyle (eventually) actually a really good shot and great at weapons dissembling/reassembling and drilling? It's just he was actual dogshit in every other way but his newfound competence in the metrics the drill sargent cared about managed to mask it until he snapped.

>>53936144
>Notably no one abandoned the gpmg.
Because disposing of the gpmg would be making the same mistake the United States made in excluding the designated marksman in the first place, in that versatility would be reduced. The automatic weapon is still dominant in an urban setting where both US and Soviet troops were regularly engaged, but it plays second fiddle in the countryside.

>>53936170
Except it has been denied in the last decade, where an average of 250,000 bullets (doubtlessly dispensed by infantry with gpmgs and assault rifles) to kill a single insurgent. Even in its own war, the heavy mg42 was outdone by squad SMGs such as the PPSh-41 with lower rates of fire but greater ease of handling.

>>53936156
>Tanks, planes and artillery all effectively are hard counters to harassing snipers
On the other hand, archetypal elven forest is nightmare for modern army and ideal place for asymmetric warfare

>>53936029
>Any man portable weapon is considered a "small arm".
Oh sure, if I get like twenty guys to carry my 25mm autocannon it's considered small arms.
>General purpose machine guns like the mg42 are therefor "small arms", despite being crew operated at the squad level and found mounted to vehicles.
It only takes one guy to carry the MG42.

>>53936124
Jets too.

>>53936235
The mg42 was defeated by ppsh-1's in urban warfare, generally because those weapons were smaller, more ammunition could be carried, and entire platoons were equipped with those weapons. The disadvantages that rendered them suboptimal in situations other than urban warfare like range and accuracy didn't really matter in those situations.

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>>53934946
Can you even imagine how terrifying slavs would be?

>>53936243
General operating procedure defined the mg42 as a crew operated weapon, which had an operator, a loader, and a spotter (who usually was the CO).

I think every military since then has had at least an operator paired with a loader.

>>53934802
It's been just BARELY 500 years since firearms have been invented so you might have the occasional elf using a smoothbore matchlock or something like that. Maybe

>>53936282
>The disadvantages that rendered them suboptimal in situations other than urban warfare like range and accuracy didn't really matter in those situations.
Exactly. Just as more compact but less accurate automatics outperform gpmg in close quarters, more accurate and longer-ranged DMRs and rifles outperform gpmg in long range. The gpmg is a great generalist weapon, but its supposed primacy stems more from the circumstances in which the wars following its introduction were fought than from some innate superiority to other weapons.

>>53936307
You don't need all three to haul a fucking MG42.

>>53936322
And yet you cannot take or hold ground using a fighting force of elven snipers. Which has been the general argument as to why elven snipers while exceptional in their niche role would not make them very influential over the course of a war.

Gpmgs are far more important for their general utility in capturing and defending locations of strategic importance. Snipers simply can't fulfill a similar role.

>>53936345
No of course not. This was never implied. I merely was pointing out that gpmgs are considered small arms.

>>53936355
I don't think anyone gas argued for taking ground with them, and holding ground is just a matter of them making their forest even more annoying to pass through.

Nobody wants to occupy a forest full of elf snipers or try and send a convoy through it

>>53936355
Who actually says that every elf needs to be a sniper? Not that guy

>>53936370
An M2 is not a GPMG.

>>53935820
>>53935855
Agent Orange is an artificial plant hormones that basically fucks with the plant's ability to function properly. It is entirely harmless to humans. The by-products used to MAKE it, is what is harmful to humans.

So if magic can fuck with hormones in this setting, I'd imagine it could fuck with Agent Orange? Not arguing either way, just sharing neat knowledge.

Bro-Tip: Because other herbicides are slowly losing efficiency, people are genuinely in talks with US Govt about permitting the use of Agent Orange again (under stricter quality control.)

Bro-Tip 2: AO was HEAVILY used in New England.

>>53936453
Is there a way to make it without the production of insane levels of dioxins?

>>53936345
You need 3 to haul the ammo for it.

>>53936395
Why bring up the M2? The M2 is an HMG, sure. It's a light weapon, not a small arm.

>>53936481
Yes but that adds on so much overhead it practically isn't worth it.

Unless no other options exist.

We are slowly getting there. Most herbicides are failing to work anymore, thanks to people's over-use of shit like Round Up.

>>53936497
>You need 3 to haul the ammo for it.
You need one for the gun.

>Why bring up the M2? The M2 is an HMG, sure. It's a light weapon, not a small arm.
Because that it's not a small arms is the point I was trying to make from the beginning >>53935941

>>53936544
Yes, you are correct. Light machine guns are small arms. Medium/GPMGs are light weapons.

>>53936453
I'd imagine an anti-poison spell would have that general effect, since that's basically what it is.

Only other thing that jumps out would be using a bunch of air elemental to suck it up and blow it somewhere else, or just fuck up the planes carrying it.

Either is hard to do on a large scale, but then again, so is dispersing it

If we're talking World War II tanks I could still see Elves making it out with anti-tank rifles and PIATs, especially through the roof.

Then again the obvious solution would be just to add more armor to the fucking roof.

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>>53936099
The Swiss get by mainly on their mountain jew banking practices and secondarily on universal conscription as well as having all their infrastructure rigged to blow in case of an invasion. The specifics of their infantry doctrine on an individual level are of lesser relevance.
Damn if they don't make some beautiful rifles, though.

So wouldn't a squad of elves be ideal with assault rifles and a gpmg. Doesnt it stand to reason that elves would use GPMGs better than humans?

>>53936791
They might be a little more accurate, but at a certain point they're going to be constrained by the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (i.e. recoil, weight, tolerances). They'd probably be slightly better at it than humans, but not significantly enough that it'd make a huge difference. Only in more precise weapons would they be able to leverage their advantages in perception.

>>53936698
Please understand, I say this as an extremely patriotic Brit who remains convinced that we still could have won the war without American intervention, just given another couple of years and who is patriotic to the point where I'll even consider British tanks to not be complete piles of ass and scrapmetal basically only good for giving the Tiger crews some target practice...

FUCK the PIAT. And fuck the Boys too; pretty much every man-portable AT weapon we made during the war was a fucking disaster. I mean SPRING-LOADED?! What is this, something from the designer's son's toybox?!

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>>53935311
Something that Snipers call in on the modern battlefield. Unless you're a Tier 1 tacti-oporateorz, snipers rarely shoot people the old-fashioned way anymore.

But if we're perfering certain races for certain jobs, like >>53935483, the vast majority of snipers would probably be elves.

>Elven snipers calling in dwarven artillery.

Makes my dick hard.

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>>53936869
>having to first clear out the forest and then clear out the caves with your fellow human/orc GIs
Oh the asymmetrical warfare fun they could have if they worked together

>>53936869
>Unless you're a Tier 1 tacti-oporateorz, snipers rarely shoot people the old-fashioned way anymore.

Isn't that just the designated marksman? Something every team has at least one of?

Snipers have always been about area denial first, precision shooting second. Marksmen are the ones doing sick 360 noscope headshots in a firefight.

>>53934802
I've been wanting to run a late-18th/early-19th century fantasy game for a while now, with the players taking the role of greenjackets and riflemen slowing down an invading orc army, while the rest of the nations get their shit together.

Elves in the setting are late adopters of the musket, as smoothbores really don't make the best use of their abilities. Firearms were used, but mostly as pistols and short muskets for use by dragoon and pistolier forces. With the dawn of rifling however, they're enthusiastically modernising and most of their foot soldiers are now light infantry, supported by dragoons and horse artillery. They seriously lack in the ability to deliver a knockout blow, especially against the highly durable and steadfast orcs, but their primary strategy is to bleed the enemy white before the major showdown even occurs, making even their comparatively weak, but skilled forces, more than capable of pushing a hole in the weakened, demoralised, exhausted enemy forces, with their men keeping them under fire from far greater distances than the enemy can return effective fire from, while dragoons and horse arty divide their lines and smash isolated divisions with overwhelming mobile firepower. Once the enemy is sufficiently softened up, the main killer blow comes in much the same way as it has for centuries of elven warfare; a charge by the heavy cavalry, tooled up in all the finest magical armour and wielding the most legendary blades they can afford, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It helps of course, that magic in the setting is less "Fireball" and "Summon Laser Dragon" and more blessings, curses and environment-manipulating druid magic, the last of which the elves are super into and really helps their style of skirmishing maneuver warfare.

>>53936570
What?

>>53936231
He became good after basically going brain-numb and practicing constantly like a robot.

Whereas an elf would just be good at it.

>>53937439
I just popped into the thread. I probably don't actually have a disagreement with you.

>>53934802
No I can't imagine that. I haven't shot a gun since I was nine years old, I have long since forgotten the factors that make for good aim and don't know if elvish traits would contribute to it.

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>>53936231
Anon...

Something not really touched on so far: Elves would likely be very big on medical support. Druidism, agility, good eyes and low breeding rates makes medics both really good at what they do and very, very important.

Elves and Dwarves would be natural allies covering weaknesses. Short and tough makes Dwarves natural heavy vehicle operators and artillery operators. On the more important end, they both cover logistical issues the other has. Elves provide superior medical tech and Druidism is great at providing huge amounts of food. Dwarves on the other hand have supply lines that are hard to find, let alone interrupt and the endurance to drive for ages.

I think it's fairly obvious that in a modern conflict such as ww2 or otherwise dwarves and elves would be forced to have relatively analogous fighting doctrines as those possessed by humans with similar emphasis in organization and doctrine. The difference would be that both fantasy races would have far smaller populations and would necessarily be inclined to wage war with limited goals and with a very highly elite fighting force. I personally believe dwarves would focus on staying neutral and isolationist, while elves would attempt to guide politics through diplomacy and aggressive preemptive action at the spear tip of a coalition that they would likely find themselves as leadership of (at least in the beginning).

>>53938051
Both would understand their inherent inferiority in a total war scenario compared to humans and would intelligently "play the game" to avoid such a disaster.

Cloak and dagger, backstage political manipulation and espionage. Hitler for example would simply never have come to power.

This is not the Shadowrun future I was promised

>>53934934
Private Pyle was good with a rifle though

>>53934802
According to 3.pf, then yes. They would be comparatively better than average humans(+2 to Dexterity), bonus to perception and low light vision.

But then you also have to realize that elves by 3.pf, take fucking 110 years to adulthood(human is 15 in 3.pf), which in a setting with firearms would actually be a huge disadvantage. Sure, they have better markmanship than human, but the time it takes to raise one generation of elf soldiers is equal to more than 5 humans generations. Not even to mention the training speed of elves vs humans(A level 1 human fighter is 17 to 21 years old, a level 1 elf fighter is 116 to 141 years old).

Just by that alone would make an elf army pretty weak. Then you also have to realize that while the bonus aren't bad, they aren't that terrifying either, humans also have a ton of people with +2 dexterity.

>>53934802
>Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting with firearms?
They would be gunned down by larger armies of regular soldiers or blown apart by artillery. The Finns lost the winter war, and the supposedly elite Germans were ground to dust beneath the bodies of 10 million Soviet soldiers and the treads of 100,000 Soviet tanks. In any prolonged conflict numbers and determination>>>>>>individual quality.

>>53938849
This doesn't really matter unless the war spans more than one generation or a conflict multiple wars across more than one generation. Modern wars generally don't do either. Assuming otherwise equal populations, a human nation isn't going to have any significant advantage in birthing and drafting new soldiers until 17 years after the war started, by which the war's outcome usually has been decided.

Of course, elven fecundity is significantly lower and in the long term, any drawn-out series of conflict will erode the elven population far more rapidly, and the elven population will recover at a much later rate, but the fact that your kids are going to have a much better time in round two isn't much of a comfort to you when you're being the one hunted down in a hostile forest.

>>53939100
The fact that they will eventually prevail most likely did not make the ordeal of the winter war or bagration any less terrifying for the soviet soldiers on the ground, so your post doesn't really answer the question.

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>>53934802
>terrifying

The word you're looking for is cute. Cute!

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Simo beats an elf any day

>>53935350

man, it's too sad a hippie wrote that....
an operator version would be ace.

>>53935307
It doesn't take more aim to use supressive fire, anon. Real life gunfights don't look like Call of Duty for a reason. The modern rifleman doesn't need to be an ace marksman for the same reason a soldier in a testudo doesn't need to be a wushu spear master or something.

>>53934802
What class is a modern era sniper in DnD terms? Rogue? Ranger?

>>53940217
Closer to Rogue. All about setting up for that one big shot at a weak point, rather than Ranger which is more about general wilderness fighting and survival.

>>53940255
A sniper actually does both of those.

>>53940272
And a Rogue can pick up survival skills to cover those aspects. Snipers aren't exactly known for running around with two swords and a wolf companion though.

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>>53934802
>in a setting with firearms

>>53934802

Seven generations of human for every generation of elves. That village has a hundred people in it: by the time my sons are grown there'll be fifteen hundred. By the time my grandsons are grown there'll be twenty thousand.

We run, they follow. We hide, they find us. We kill a hundred today, and there'll still be a thousand tomorrow.

We are doomed. And when we are gone their children will post "elf slave wat do" memes to their imageboards.

>>53939212
Doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Snipers exist, even if Elf snipers are better they are still just snipers, suppress and destroy.

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>>53935311
A MISERABLE PILE OF SHELLS

BUT ENOUGH TALK! TAKE AIM!

>>53941135
What in the

>>53936044
yeah but power creep up the fucking marbles u scua fuking faglord

>>53934802
Warhammer fantasy?

Also,not scary at all. Humans outbreed them and kill the elves off.

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>>53941371
It's a JoJo character.

>>53939100
>muh soviet numbers and muh soviet tonks

>>53941739
>Warhammer fantasy?

That setting has 3 different sorts of elves and none of them are willing to use guns. That's always annoyed me.

>>53941739
dark elves would be downright terrifying should they gain the secrets to firearms and napalm, they have the slaves to construct both in mass

>>53939100
>In any prolonged conflict numbers and determination>>>>>>individual quality

Not even close.

WW2 was won by US industry. That's all there is to it. Soviet numbers would do shit without Lend Lease feeding them and air campaign in the west crippling Luftwaffe and German industry.

>>53938849
>DnD

Grow up holy shit. That crap never made any sense nor ever tried. You are trying to use glorified board game rules in a discussion about reality.

>>53941739

Except both High Elves and Dark Elves are much stronger than any human nation in Warhammer.

>>53935837
In the AD&D setting Birthright, elves lead wild hunts on humans specifically because of the deforestation they caused. They're so good at hunting humans that they're something of a boogeyman in the setting.

>>53942916
He said pf, you fucking autistic mong

>>53943005

Same shit.

>>53942894
It was won by a huge combination of things
US lend-lease without the RN escorting it to Russia would just be so much crap on the bottom of the ocean.
Russia without US lend-lease would just be a bloody wasteland of dead everyone.
The bombing campaigns wouldn't have been possible without the crippling of the Luftwaffe by the RAF (that battle was actually not as tight as it looked though, the RAF coming within a hair's breadth of being defeated is based on some old assumptions).
Without the Soviets soaking up 2/3 of the Heer the western invasions would have been a horrific meatgrinder.
Without shipments from the US, Britain and the Soviet Union would have been pushed to the brink and probably defeated.
Without the intelligence work from Eastern Europe, the later capture of Enigma machines and the efforts of spies and such the Germans would have been much more effective in their attacks and defenses.
Without Hitler's incompetence his generals would have actually been able to do their damn jobs
etc, etc.

>>53942843
>>53942779
You'd think some of them, especially dark elves, would have given it a go, but for some reason no.

>>53938849
>But then you also have to realize that elves by 3.pf, take fucking 110 years to adulthood
I think they are just considered adults by their peers at this age, physically they age similarly to humans.

>>53934934
>>53935434
>Pyle elves

I find this supremely ironic, all of you kids are too fucking young to remember that Gomer Pyle, despite being an idiot, was a fucking mechanical Savant and an expert marksman. Also a great baritone singer.

https://youtu.be/r5KeGccP9Jk

>>53934802
Of greater value to elves is their lifespans which means, if they survive, their veterans are often the saltiest sons a bitches on the block.

In the setting the Elves are basically Prussian, their kingdom is small and their military also small, but highly elite, and their services as mercenaries are highly prized and bring great wealth to their home country. They lack the numbers and clout to be a true empire, so they make themselves valuable to everyone as soldiers of fortune, and the risk of losing their services and well crafted muskets keeps them secure

>>53935333
I avoid races being evenly balanced by some strange cosmic force because that's even more boring and stupid. Some races are just superior to others and if you want to play one it costs more points at creation.

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>>53940596
>Humans
>Not descending into petty infighting over the most trivial of shits
Fragile, centralized human settlements built from wood get Dresden'd by gnomes one after another, while napalm and the likes hardly touch a vast forest.

>>53943464
>gnomes
I see what you did there. /pol/ please go

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>>53943500
What did I do there? If I posted something /pol/ related it was a pure coincidence, I didn't intend to.

>>53935241
We are an awful species

>>53943550
Too late. Get ready for your ban.

>>53943346
Yes, after her got broken and became a machine-man. He didn't just start off good at shooting, he become obsessively fixated with it as the environment of the base started to damage his psyche.

>>53943550
It's some bullshit about "Hurr durr gnomes are an allegory for Jews." The thing you have to understand is that a) /pol/ tries to push its agenda in EVERY SINGLE POST it makes and b) people who have quite rightly grown to hate /pol/ for it now see literally any mention of any race, economic system, religion, or ideology EVER as /pol/ posting. No conversation is possible, as either you get /pol/ shitters coming and dumping their agenda all over it, or you get screaming paranoia from the other side

Back on topic, it'd be interesting to note that air power would become a consideration much earlier in fantasy worlds. Pegasus or gryphon riders could perform areal recon while armies are still using bronze spears and even in a low-magic setting, bombing runs by pots of Greek Fire are nothing to scoff at! Once gunpowder comes onto the scene, now you have explosive or fragmentation bombs that can be dropped, to say nothing of the power of, for example, a dragon on the battlefield! Granted, an individual creature likely couldn't carry a very heavy payload, but the inclusion of flying creatures might actually stifle early development of things like dirigibles and biplanes, as "Why bother with these untested and flimsy contraptions? We have steeds that have proven reliable and a dragon's scales are far less vulnerable than some bag of flammable gas!"

>>53942843

To be fair their repeating crossbows are better than guns stats wise.

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>>53934802
>an army where everyone is a sniper
>just a bunch of "lone wolf ranger" guys without logistics or defensive cover to back them up

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>>53940596

You are funny.

Elves take more time to reach adulthood, but at the same time it takes them much longer to die.

And humans are not combat effective for their entire life. You don't send 12y old kids into combat just like you don't sent 65y old men. Unless you REALLY need to. Meanwhile elves don't get crippled by age at all. Quite the opposite.

On top of that elves don't have sexual dimorphism like humans do so 100% of their population is combat effective while like 90% of human women don't really work as warriors. Many of the men don't either.

All that + accumulation of knowledge and experience. Or much better immunity to diseases. Or no need to sleep 6-8 hours.

That's not even getting into nigh warfare where elves can see perfectly fine while humans can't.

Or magic.

Humans being the dominant species over elves is complete bullshit unless author justifies it in retarded ways like elves only having one kid per 300 years or being locked in a great war vs [something] for 5k years or some other crap.

>>53944581
>they are great as snipers
>that automatically means they are utter shit at everything else

The funny thing is it's people like you who usually write fantasy novels.

>>53944672
>humans are not great as snipers
>that automatically means they will lose to elves in a war
????

>>53944698
HFY cuck

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>>53934901
>firearms combat through history has pretty much never been about accuracy

>>53944774
>implying
I actually dislike HFY strongly, but if you think that marksmanship is the determining factor in war or even in skirmishes, you are strongly mistaken.

>>53944698

Except nobody even said that?

>>53944816
The OP strongly implies that.
> Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting with firearms?
Terrifying to who? Certainly not telepathic hivemind rocks.

>>53944812
>I actually dislike HFY strongly
Nice lie, cuck.

>>53944659
Actually valid points. I hadn't considered some of these aspects of elven aging.

I try not to make them QUITE as ridiculous as some settings, in anything I run; for instance, they still need to sleep, just every elf ever is a morning person (ugh); and they'll typically 'only' live to about 200 (dwarves rock 160 years. Heh. Rock.); plus I figure elven time-to-adulthood can't be THAT long - even elephants only have human-scale childhoods and giant sea turtles can spend as little as 5-8 years as 'children', hence why I figure an elf would be sexually mature at around 20-ish, but cultural maturity (humans can be biologically 'sexually mature' in their mid-teens but still not considered adults until later) would probably be between 24 and 30 years

>>53944698
>>53944774
Okay, considering logic then, what advantages ARE there to being a human, in a world where the major races are orcs, elves, dwarves and humies? Dwarves have endurance and their lifespans; elves have great agility, dexterity, perception and their long lives; orcs are resilient as fuck... What advantage do humans get?

Let's assume no race has a huge, glaring weakness like 'gets sick easily' as that kind of shit is just giving natural selection a big ol' middle finger and until modern medicine, the first big plague should have reduced your species to non-viable numbers.

>>53944134
Anon

I mean the ORIGINAL Gomer Pyle

As in the actual guy from the Gomer Pyle of the show

Not the dude in FMJ

>>53944659
Let's say you have a community of Elves and a horde of Orcs. The Orcs attack the Elven forest, 9000 Orcs get slaughtered, and 3 Elves die. 20 years later the Orc women and children have rebuilt the horde and try again, the Elves have had one child in this time and he's still basically a toddler, 9000 Orcs get slaughtered but this time 5 Elves die.

20 years later it happens again, and 20 years after that, and 20 years after that. It takes 3 cycles of war for an Elven child to grow to adulthood and that just makes a level 1 schlub with no fighting experience, they only have four or five children in that time but they lose half a dozen elven fighters each war.

So even though they are hilariously superior and the Orcs are taking far worse casualties the Elves are still getting ground down over time because they can't replace their population fast enough.

Eventually it reaches the breaking point, too many veterans have died in past wars, too few children have been born, the Elves get overrun and killed.

A sentient race that requires 70 years to reach fighting age and only has a few children every few decades not only WILL NOT be dominant, but in fact has no reasonable explanation for not being EXTINCT in setting. Skirmishing with other races is so ruinous for Elves that any setting where they weren't created out of thin air less than two centuries ago SHOULD NOT CONTAIN ELVES ANYMORE.

>>53944812

Ask Soviet veterans how important snipers were.

Nobody said they are the most important, but imagine WW1 just one side can hit the enemy at 1000m with no problems both day and night.

Actually, just being able to fight at night just as effectively as during day is a gigantic factor.

>>53944828
>>53944830
> What advantage do humans get?
The thing is - we don't fucking know, because those races don't exist in reality, and thus we don't have a single basis of comparison.
If you just say "oh, elves are better at agility and dexterity stuff" and then go "nuh-uh, they don't have obvious weaknesses", then what the fuck is the point of this discussion?
Let's introduce Powerman and Uchiha Madara into the debate while we're at it, surely this will improve its quality.

>>53934901
>Otherwise, why didn't militia through history train everyone to be marksmen?
Because it's expencive, take a lot of time, and you only get that marksman for 10-15 years before he get too old for an active service. Not an issue for a long-living race like elves - their soldiers would be fully operational for decades if not centuries, so they can spend money they saved on trining more soldiers to make those they already have more badass.

>>53934901
>+2 dexterity does not a sniper make

The dexterity stat is an abstracted value of bodily coordination. Having a calm hand helps any gunman.
Elves also get low-light vision and enhanced perception which is what would make the real difference.
Otherwise elves would be even better in melee combat due to having a better coordination than humans.

>Also, firearms combat through history has pretty much never been about accuracy, it has been about volume of fire, positioning, and distance. Otherwise, why didn't militia through history train everyone to be marksmen?

>>53944850
>Ask Soviet veterans how important snipers were.
The thing is - no one important conducts war that way anymore. Technology marches on, and all that shit. The impact of the physical skill of the individual is slowly being replaced by better engineering and machine programming.

>>53944826

Since when does "terrifying" mean automatically winning war?

>>53944802
I've heard the exact same story about the Zulus at Rourke's Drift, so that sounds like some rhodieboo bullshit.

>>53944873
Since when were we afraid of something that couldn't fuck us over?

>>53934946
i can. And it heavily depends on the sacle - on a personal and small unit level - very so, but on a large scale their shit teamwor, lack of organisation, criminally incompetnent and corrupt high command an and almost non-existant advanced logistics make them more laughable than terrifying.

>>53944848

By that logic your orcs would also wipe out every other race before anyone even got out of bronze age.

>>53944893
>By that logic your orcs would also wipe out every other race before anyone even got out of bronze age.
Have you ever considered that perhaps humanity IS the orcs of the Earth?

>>53944854
Alright, no need to get personal... How about this?

I know the HFY nerds will jump down my throat for this, but it could just be that humans do everything, but not as well as other races? An elf or dwarf can endure the least physical damage, a human can tank slightly more and an orc is just fucking beastmode; orcs and dwarves have the worst reflexes and flexibility, humans slightly better and elves are their usual lithe selves (on top of practically never needing glasses, which sadly kills the chance for combining the glasses girl and elf fetishes, unless they start doing it for fashion's sake); dwarves can go a week or more without water, humans can last three to five days and if you take an elf or orc's water for two, you've got a corpse.

Sound reasonable?

>>53944848

That's not how society works. If your elf civilization works like it should for centuries already there are kids reaching adulthood all the time.

>>53944878
Being able to fuck someone over does not equal winning a war. Americans learned it in Vietnam, Russians - in Afghanistan

>>53944893
Everyone else has short childhoods and the good sense to proactively wipe out barbarian tribes instead of sitting in the forest being smug. That's why Humans go even with Orcs and just fight each other forever.

>>53944921
But they are only getting one or two adults every ten years while the Orcs are getting thousands, and the Elves are losing more adults than they are replacing with the idiotic Elven birth rates.

>>53944830
>What advantage do humans get?
SHorter lifespan is a massive advantage on the societal level. This means generations replace each others more quickly so new ideas and technologies take roots in the society more quickly. Long-living races in most fantasy settings only have technological edge over humans because they started their civilization much earlier than humans, and humans are quickly advancing to their level and would inevitably out-advance them.

>>53944907

Humans are not capable of completely replenishing the "horde" every 20 years. You would need to force every woman to have a kid at the same time if you wanted this to happen. If ww2 was few years longer Soviets would literally run out of combat capable males.

And for some reason your elves didn't counterattack after slaughtering the first horde and destroy orc homes while enslaving or murdering the population.

>>53944919
>but it could just be that humans do everything, but not as well as other races
BORING
Besides, again, what's the point of this debate if we're gonna default to standard fantasy cliches?
Why must humans always serve as a baseline to every single fucking race in existence?
Why must every fucking fantasy race be either "humans, but better at stuff" or "humans, but worse at stuff"?
Chances are, if we contact another sentient race they won't be human-like at all. Why not hivemind rocks or hyperintelligent non-conscious ant colonies or whatever - anything that isn't boring rehashed fantasy stuff with "they're just like humans, only sightly different" bullshit?

Because in standard fantasy, there isn't more difference between elves, humans, dwarves and orcs than there is between, say, negros, asians, caucasians and aboriginals (not necessarily corresponding to the above fantasy races). They all have their cultural differences, they all have their physical differences, they all have their technological differences - but the mindset is the same human mindset we've been operation on for millennias.

>>53944965
>so new ideas and technologies take roots in the society more quickly

This is pure sci-fi bullshit though. Steve Jobs was born in 1955. He grew up in a time nobody even imagined cell phones would exist.

Why would elves magically be less creative and stick with old tech? It's fucking idiotic.

My grandma was born when TV didn't exist yet. Didn't stop her from learning how to use internet.

>>53944972
>Humans are not capable of completely replenishing the "horde" every 20 years.
And yet humans did exactly than in 21 years between WWI and WWII. Less so in Russia, whose massive bloody civil war only ended 19 years before WWII.

>>53944925

So you justify it with shit writing and elves being retarded?

>>53944659
This.

Even going by D&D elf birthrates, elves would actually end up overpopulated as fuck due to their insane lifespan. And that overpopulation would just explode at an exponential rate once it gets to a certain size.

The only way to make elves logically underpopulated is to never ever address the mechanics of it and just appeal to tradition, or to give them truly retarded birthrates, like a community of a hundred elves might have one kid every century.

>>53945007
>Steve Jobs
>actually responsible for any of the tech inventions he profited from
>implying he wasn't purely a PR guy

>>53945015

France had 40m population before WW1. Total military loses were 1.7 million so around 4% of the population.

That's not even close to entire armed force getting slaughtered.

>>53944848
>A sentient race that requires 70 years to reach fighting age

They don't though. Here, have a quote:

>Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.

Elves, in D&D at least, reach physical maturity at the same time as humans. At this age they can fight, hunt, have careers, etc. They're just not considered full adults because elves see true adulthood as requiring a level of wisdom and experience accumulated over 100+ years.

>>53945076
>Implying orks would send their entire adult male poulation for an invasion.

>>53944965
While we're on that topic, can someone please tell me how the human kingdom that is literally right next-FUCKING-door to the elves and the dwarves and everyone else, still is a culturally homogenous blob, especially after centuries of warfare, trade and shifting borders? At the very LEAST there should be enclaves of foreign races! If the fucking Spanish moors were able to have Christians and Jews in their Islamic caliphate, why the fuck is there one 'elvish kingdom' one 'dwarf kingdom' and one 'human kingdom' derping around like they were literally put there five minutes ago?!

What'd be fascinating is the various kingdoms trading IDEAS between each other, as people migrate and set up businesses and are absorbed by their conquerors, or split away and form alliances with another kingdom!

In my setting for instance, the reason the dwarves aren't years ahead in the industry stakes, is that in spite of inventing the blast furnace about 300 years ahead of the rest of the world, they were so isolated geographically, that the much more cosmopolitan humans were able to make much better use of it when they finally caught up and the elves, having long focused on individual craftsmanship over mass-production suddenly found a new skill in specialisation and churning out finished goods, importing less refined materials from the other races. Their low numbers were then largely freed from basic production and primary industries and their secondary and tertiary sectors boomed.

>>53944976
So quit bitching and contribute something. We can only design from a human baseline, because that is all the experience we have. If you want to invent something unpronounceable and incomprehensible, feel free, but don't be surprised when no-one can fucking fathom it and just shrug and look elsewhere. The most 'alien' we can appreciate is things like the ever-ubiquitous 'alien hive-mind bug swarm' because again, they're based on ants or locusts; something we understand!

>elf night warfare

Jesus fuck, why is this never used in fantasy?

Like holy crap, elves could slaughter human armies many times bigger than themselves by just attacking them at 3am while humans can't see shit and are tired.

Seriously, imagine human knights trying to do a charge in the middle of the night. Or the fact no human ranged units could be used at all.

In fact, why don't goblins do this shit?

>>53945110
>While we're on that topic, can someone please tell me how the human kingdom that is literally right next-FUCKING-door to the elves and the dwarves and everyone else, still is a culturally homogenous blob, especially after centuries of warfare, trade and shifting borders?
Basically the same way it was IRL: medieval societies are highly immobile and xenophobic, and Renaissance and later introduces the concept of patriotism to keep each nation homogeneous and reduce foreign influence.

>>53945110
>We can only design from a human baseline, because that is all the experience we have
>The most 'alien' we can appreciate is things like the ever-ubiquitous 'alien hive-mind bug swarm' because again, they're based on ants or locusts; something we understand!
So are you saying that we can't move away from human baseline to something else that we understand that isn't based on humans (or mammals, for that matter)?

I just don't see the point in debating fictional races' strengths and weaknesses if we don't have a proper basis of comparison due to the fact that they are fictional.
It's like that Peanuts strip where they are playing Cowboys and Indians and the girl keeps saying "Missed me!", and when Charlie Brown says "Missed me!", the girl starts crying that it's not fair.

>>53945170

End yet enclaves still happened in real life.

>>53934901
>Also, firearms combat through history has pretty much never been about accuracy, it has been about volume of fire
Dexterity.

>positioning
Fleet of Foot

>and distance.
Keen Senses

>>53944925
Wouldn't that make kobolds with guns the race to overrun the setting?

>>53944934
Not necessarily, the elves just need considerably bigger population than orcs to be able to replenish their losses. Like millions of elves in their dazzling forest citadels versus small thousand person tribes of nomadic orcs.

>>53945186
Yes, and they remained isolatted enclaves with limited ties to the locals. Hell, modern day immigrants from the Middle east are the textbook example of how medieval migration worked: migrants would form their own enclaves and would not integrate itno the local society providingl little to no cultural or thecnological exchange.

>>53945110
>While we're on that topic, can someone please tell me how the human kingdom that is literally right next-FUCKING-door to the elves and the dwarves and everyone else, still is a culturally homogenous blob, especially after centuries of warfare, trade and shifting borders?

Well, in most settings, they're not.

In most settings where human nations are mostly homogeneous, like WHFB, the elves are somewhat inaccessible and definitely not right next door.

>>53935777
>>53935820
>>53935856
Y'all niggas are assuming centuries old wizards won't be dumping storms of fire on YOUR house, too. It's folly to assume the elves won't destroy your faggot ass with all that crazy shit they've been practicing for 2000 years.

>>53934802
Not very terrifying to be honest. In real life, the Finns lost their shit as soon as actual tanks rolled into their country. Now imagine the Dwarfs. I'm sure they wouldn't even bother to send in any troops to accompany the tanks.

>>53945242
>In most settings where human nations are mostly homogeneous
>like WHFB
What the fuck am I reading? You couldn't think of a worse example.

>>53943981
Take solace in the fact that that article is likely fake. You can't just mix WP and Napalm into some magical incendiary weapon.

>>53945170
Again, see my point about Cordoba and the Moorish caliphates in Spain prior to the Reconquista. And the medieval world was not NEARLY as insular as you seem to believe; before Venice, there was the Hanseatic League in the Baltic region; or the fact that Moscow was originally a trading point where multiple river traders all converged; Constantinople was the "City of the World's Desire" because it sat on a perfectly commanding trade lane; the Islamic world had its golden age due to sitting on the Silk Road from India and China, which in turn traded with Europe; England, a wet little island in the ass-end of the civilized world, was THE wool trader for most of Europe!

True, the average peasant often never strayed further from his farm than the nearest town, but the medieval world was massively inter-connected on a cultural and economic level and every major city had its Jewish Quarter, or other small areas where the 'foreigners' all gathered to talk in strange languages and offer exotic wares and rare books from the cultural centres of the world. This was especially strong in cities with major ports, or on large, navigable rivers and from there, the ideas and goods travelled inland and spread.

>>53945175
Well then what would you compare a fictional race to? You may as well have a setting with nothing but humans, if you're going to take that approach.

>>53945260
The Empire is vastly human, dude.

There are no elf communities in the Empire and just a few dwarves living there.

>>53944848
The Gods exist, and the orc god is weak as fuck.

Problem solved, you STEM piece of shit.

Im pretty sure shadowrun can answer that for you.

>>53945278
> You may as well have a setting with nothing but humans
Yes, and?
You might be surprised, but there are ENDLESS varieties of real-life humans, all with their distinct cultures and lifestyles, all more interesting, weird, curious, fascinating than fictional races.
But, no, of course, the only difference between humans is skin color and cranial features, amirite? :^)

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>Elves with guns
They'd probably bitch about how they're uncultured and that gunpowder is dirty. Kobolds with guns is way more terrifying. They're like an entire race genetically predisposed to chemical attacks, night raids, and tunnel-based hit-and-run attacks.

Give the scrappy underdog race obsessed with lethal traps, tunnels, and the ability to breed like rats an equalizer like firearms and you've got the basis for a black ops team made of nightmares, the vicious little viet cong bastards.

>>53945280
And what about the dozen or so of human kingdoms, some of them playable, which are not the Empire and are radically different from it? Even the empire itself is VERY heterogeneous, even though the models don't show it for obvious reasons.

>>53945315
>Kobolds with guns is way more terrifying
Kobolds with muskets that explode in their faces, maybe. Advanced kobolds are heresy. They gotta be primitive squealing savages.

>>53945303
By that same argument then, why NOT have fictional races? If all it takes to make a group interesting is their culture and lifestyle, then why not have that group be elves, or bird-people, or fucking anything?

I'm not saying humans aren't interesting. I'm just saying, "Why does it always have to be humans?" OF COURSE other races and groups within those races, would have their own cultures, languages, customs and so-on. Adding variance in abilities only ADDS to this; it subtracts nothing.

Or did you think that by having one thing, it's impossible to have another? That if the orcs have more resilience and resistance to damage, they can't be more interesting than "Urgrak smash?" Or that the only reason humans CAN be interesting, is that we're so fundamentally similar? That view is exactly as narrow as the opposite, you realise?

>>53945380
>They gotta be primitive squealing savages.
That aint stopping arabs or gooks from using guns and armor.

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>>53945380
>Advanced kobolds are heresy.
You don't need to be advanced to have guns - you can buy them from your more advanced nations/races.

>>53940199
probably because the testudo wasn't meant to be used in close combat, but against ranged weaponry, and also because the participants of a testudo weren't going to be using spears in the first place.
>muh javelin
you're not going to be throwing them while holding your shield in place.

>>53945076
>Total military loses were 1.7 million
Wikipedia lists it as 1,3 million killed and 3 million wounded and half million POW
So nearly 4 million people, nearly half of french forces.
Granted POWs and many wounded were fit for service after the war but still, casualties were great.

>>53944826
banzai charges are terrifying but they sure weren't effective or conducive to victory.

>>53945396
>why NOT have fictional races?
I'm prefectly fine with having non-human races.
What I'm not fine with is seriously arguing and comparing them as if there was any real basis for comparison.
At least in real life, with real humans, there is such a basis.

Besides, when you make feature excessively more prominent than all the others (like, you guessed it, giving orcs inhuman resilience or elves inhuman grace while they retain the human mindset), you are pidgeonholing the race into a stereotypical niche.
Why not give spotlight to some other fucking things, like culture or history instead of physical differences?

>>53945076
It was if you account for logistics and Homefront maintenance. They already had nearly as many men in the army that they could without the state ceasing to function. Modern societies cannot put they're entire male population into the war effort. The Soviets were able to do this only with massive food aid and using females in men's roles both in army logistics and Homefront duties.

A rule of thumb is agricultural societies can field about ten percent of the population before things start grinding to an eventual halt.

>>53934802
It's called Shadowrun. And they are no more terrifying with guns than anybody else who is a decent shot. Especially when cybernetic aiming assistance is available.

>>53936453
You need to stop reading 1960's propaganda. Agent Orange is not harmless to humans, it's quite detrimental, and can cause birth defects 1 or 2 generations after exposure. Go look at some pictures of American veterans and Vietnamese citizens who were exposed to agent orange.

>>53945246
>the Finns lost their shit as soon as actual tanks rolled into their country.
Anon the Soviets were using BTs and T-26s the entire winter war, they won because the soviets began to get mildly less retarded.

>>53945542
Not an issue for elves with a healing magic.

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>>53945246
>Now imagine the Dwarfs
Dwarves wouldn't be better off, their strange mood-wunderkind tanks would just be overrun by mass-produced human, orc or even gnome tanks. If we're going to stick to an elven aversion to heavy artillery we may as well stick to dwarven obsession with individual perfection in every product.

>>53945246
>the Finns lost their shit as soon as actual tanks rolled into their country.
Those tanks never stood a chance against the finnish secret weapon: a wooden log. The tanks would've probably settled the war if they ever had the chance to roll into Finland. The real "this kills the finn" thing in the war was the ultimate soviet zerg rush in the end. Also this >>53945553

>>53945594
What if Agent Orange is imbued with anti healing magic and is much stronger than your dad?

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>>53945658
What if Agent Orange has a skull gun?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qohaWhfGjJM

>>53945358
Cathay, Araby, Bretonnia, Estalia and Nippon all seem pretty solidly human. Kislev too.

>>53945658
Why would it be? It's not designed to be dangerous to humans, given it's used to deforest areas where you send your own troops. I may imagine anti-healing imbued chemical weapons, but not defoliants. if anything any competent force with acces to enchanting magic would imbue their defoliants with spells that PREVENT any harm to their own troops.

>>53945658
>>53945758
Yeah, there are actual chemical weapons for killing people. Defoliants shouldn't do both. That's silly.

Why are we assuming that elves wouldn't have advanced shit like planes and artillery?

Elves are never really presented as technologically retarded. In most settings their sciences, philosophies, construction techniques, etc are more advanced than those of humans, they're just not really angled toward domination of the world for one reason or another (in Tolkien it's because they're leaving, in FR it's because they learned from the Crown Wars that acting this way is ultimately self-destructive, etc).

The only setting I can think of where the humans are more advanced than elves is Warhammer, and even then it's debatable, since elvish smithing and magic is much more potent and more than makes up the difference, with magical shit serving the same battlefield role as cannons and the like.

>>53945849
Because if elves adopted modern military tactics then they would be superior to humans which is just unacceptable to fa/tg/uys.

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>>53945849
The way IK does elves in a modernizing setting is better than the "elves can't into artillery" thing, IMO.

They've had longer to perfect their sciences and arcane arts, and have merged them to some extent. They don't use typical artillery, but instead use 'cleaner', more arcane equivalents. Humans use shelling, elves use kinetic force projectors. Humans use firebombs, elves use gravitic implosion bombs. Humans use flamethrowers to clear buildings, elves use sonic cannons to clear buildings.

This is assuming you're not running elves as super fey literally one with the trees forest spirit type elves.

>>53945849

see >>53945880
most fantasy fans refuse to even attempt to conceptualize a fictional world where humans aren't the dominant species.

The problem with this whole concept is 'elves with guns' covers a period of analogous human history that is roughly 600+ years and counting and accounts for everything from hilariously-shit handgonnes, to laser space blasters from the year three thousand.

Just how effective these are and how much use elves could make of them depends entirely on the type of weaponry and greater context we're talking about and given that in just the 30-year gap between our world wars, weaponry and tactics changed beyond fucking recognition, the variance of more than six cunting centuries makes the arguments for modern elves; napoleonic elves; WW2 elves; or space elves so wildly different that without being sure we're on the same page, all discussion is meaningless!

This is to say nothing of the industrial, political, economic and societal changes that took place over the same time frame and utterly changed everything about how war is waged, but also how the reasons WHY wars are even fought in the first place changed!

Before we can have any kind of discussion here, how about we all agree on wtf the ground rules are. Okay? Okay.

>>53946626
OPs need to be more specific more often, we wouldn't throw around "depends on the setting" otherwise.

>>53946626
>Before we can have any kind of discussion here
too late.

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>>53946026
Ret tech is pretty insane.

Maybe too insane. I'm not sure I can believe that a fucking black hole gun is merely a POW12 infantry clearer.

>>53944659
Their sexual dimorphism isn't much different than humans, unless we're talking drow. At worst male and female elves are equally weaker than the average human soldier.
And elves only see up to 60ft in the dark, and only in black and white.
Main problem with elves is those super warriors take 100+ years to make, and a couple seconds to kill.

>>53947588
Kys yourself HFY cuck.

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>>53947780
What? DnD elves are often depicted as frail. They even had a con penalty before the game realized penalties sucked.
I hate HFY as much as the next guy but DnD doesn't make elves seem terribly impressive, partly due to the need for mechanical balance.

>>53947986
They're depicted as frail, but not really less strong. They have worse endurance and durability, but don't have much trouble lifting things in comparison, aside from the fact that most elves don't focus their talents in that area.

And with how skinny they are, I'd certainly doubt their sexual dimorphism is the same as humans.

>>53948049
>And with how skinny they are, I'd certainly doubt their sexual dimorphism is the same as humans.
Like I said, worst case scenario they're all womanly and weaker than the average human soldier. CON's a huge part of soldiering besides. If they have bad CON, they're at a severe disadvantage.

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>not getting that elves would be basically an eternal Viet Cong with experience and marksmanship of more lifetimes than your're most hardened vet

In my setting, elves were victims of human expansion. In the modern era, most live in forest reservations and their ancient cities, keeping to themselves and not concerning themselves with the outside world. Occasionally a child will leave the reservation to explore the human world though.

>>53948049
Skinny men exist, yet they're not so bizarre that you can't tell them from women. Unless you're a trapfag or something.

>>53948219
That's wonderful but has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

>>53945849
Because elves are fags

>>53947588
>Their sexual dimorphism isn't much different than humans

Depends on the setting, but in MOST fantasy settings male and female elves are pretty much the same in terms of physical prowess. Funnily enough this is not the case in Tolkien's works.

Str and Con stuff varies between in editions in D&D, with all the more recent ones not really noting that they're any more frail than humans. It's also one of those things that only really appears in D&D when it does, and was only there for balance purposes.

>>53945380
>Advanced kobolds are heresy.

Tbh Kobolds as the most technically advanced species make perfect sense and much more interesting mechanically.

Imagine Tucker's kobolds, but their tech is at 21st century level.

Yes, you shouldn't hide your boner, i see it from over here already.

>>53948378
>Depends on the setting, but in MOST fantasy settings male and female elves are pretty much the same in terms of physical prowess
The same is true for fantasy humans too. Settings don't really like to tackle gender differences lest someone start screeching sexism.

>>53948423
Kobolds are a shit, tucker's kobolds are a shit, and I wish /tg/ would ditch it's goddamn fetish for these fucking lizards

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>>53934802
>imagine
Yes. Yes I can.

>>53948448

>Kobolds are a shit
>this fag didn't get the memo

Kobolds are better fantasy race than
>lol humans with beards
>lol faggy humans
>lol humans with tusks
i'm not even getting into /pfg/ territory of
>lol humans with animal ears

kobolds are interesting, fun and cute. They can occupy more niches than other races. They deserve being a core race.

>>53948423
>Tbh Kobolds as the most technically advanced species make perfect sense and much more interesting mechanically.
Not necessarily. Breeding fast and maturing quickly has its advantages in terms of propagation, sure, but creatures with such high mortality rates and low average lifespans (whatever their theoretical maximum lifespan) like kobolds are going to have trouble teaching each successive generation what they learned before that generation gets killed by the adventurer party that wandered in.

Kobolds are depicted as loyal (among themselves), social, inherently clever and talented, but the reason they don't go beyond traps and a few limited inventions is that they are born, mature and die far too quickly to ever transmit in entirety the last generation's developments.

>>53948528
>kobolds happen upon a stash of high-tech stuff
>fast forward 5 years
>Kobold empire rules entire continent
Sounds like a cool campaign hook
You play as empire of course

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>>53948507
I wish I could hate you to death

>>53948585
>t.pathfag

>>53948570
Finding a stash of high tech stuff isn't really much to work on if you don't have the technical expertise to decipher how to recreate it not the scientific expertise to build upon it. It'd take more than a few years of not being killed to even have a chance of gaining that prerequisite knowledge, and quite a bit more to be innovative instead of merely imitative.

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>>53948507
Scalies are cancer.

>>53948507
>lol human orphans with scales
>Brilliant! Core race!

>>53936839
Without American intervention the soviets would have liberated France and probably force Franco to flee Spain. You didn't need the yanks to defeat the huns, you needed them to end the war before Stalin owned two continents.

>>53948857
Without American Lend-Lease the Soviets would have buckled.

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When you think about it shouldn't elves be great at early firearms?

Fast reloading is all about dexterity.

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>>53945083
That was about the time 3rd Ed. seriously nerfed demi-human lifespans, right?

You're right though, elves who breed as fast as humans won't have this problem, and will probably end up running the world.

>>53948892
Naw, lend-lease accounted for up to 40%, and helped end rhr war sooner, but once production was set up in the Urals, and all mobile factories redeployed behind their own lines, the soviets would have lost maybe Stalingrad, or maybe Moscow, but certainly not both, and they would have made a comeback unlike any other. The Germans would simply not have the numbers or tactics to conquer central Russia, let alone occupy it. This longer and much more brutal war would not suit the Germans, and Hitler would faced more assassination attempts and possibly a coup as it dragged on.

Without yanks fighting Germans, the war ends in 1947 with the Socialist Republic of France being established and the Eurasian Union of Socialist Republics emerging as the superpower.

Without lend-lease, American economy never recovers from the depression, the early 50s see the world still at war with the soviets and Brits edging out and finally dividing Europe between their spheres of influence while the us becomes a big fish in the shrinking pond of the Americas.

>>53948914
>“Today [1963] some say the Allies didn’t really help us…But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.”[12]
t. Georgy Zhukov, the general most directly responsible for making that comeback unlike any other.

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>>53949389
meant for >>53949081
>Without lend-lease, American economy never recovers from the depression, the early 50s see the world still at war with the soviets and Brits edging out
And how would the British be able to "Edge out" this Soviet Europe's industry without lend-lease? The British benefited from it more than anyone else.

>>53948914
Early firearms were shit tier compared to longbows in everything but armor piercing and training time. Both not an issue for long living elves with shitton of enchanters to make armor-piercing arrows.

>>53949081
You do realize that land-lease provided like 70% of alluminium, 95% of high-octane fuel and ALL the long-range radios to soviets? Basically wothput it thay would have NO air support and get carpet-bombed by germans. Hell, without land-lease soviet soldiers would fucking STARVE as nazis occupied by then primary agricultural regions of USSR. They would also freeze, as land-lease provided soviet textilr plants with extra cotton and buttons for making winter clothes and boots. See WInter war to find out how good soviet winter gear was. Hint: cold killed more soviet soldiers than Finns.

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>he actually uses fantasy races with attribute modifiers

>>53944848
Sounds like an elven policy of extermination is in order. It's not hard for people like Elves to draw long term conclusions from perceivable trends.

>>53937281
Do you already have a system to run it in?
I personally would suggest Song of Swords + Call of the Void, if not.

https://mega.nz/#F!S89jTT7J!ozFi9GvzaFGHfBa59Ik2-Q
SoS 1.3 is the most recent.

>>53934802
Nigga half this board is 40Keks.

>>53950332
Song of Swords is for earlier times though, isn't it? I didn't think it was suitable for Napoleonic times...

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>>53950521
Well, it has rifles (with different firing and loading mechanisms available) and stuff in the core rules (p. 152). And Call of the Void is a supplement improving on combat rules to make ranged fighting better, since CotVs setting is WW2-ish tech.
I think most of the mechanical improvements made in CotV have made it into the 1.3 PDF.

>>53949415
Together they edge out against the Germans. Alone either would have been defeated.

>>53949698

Nazi Germany barely ha the resources to engage in blitzkrieg/panzer waffen up to Stalingrad, it would have been impossible past that without occupying and building infrastructure in western Russia, a time consuming and costly effort that the Germans couldn't afford. The terrain of central & northern Russia wouldn't have allowed guderian to have the success he had on the plains.

German logistics were terrible, while individual creature comforts were better for German troops, they lacked winter gear, and by not being mechanized infantry, the increasingly vast distances between towns mean that you can't survive off the land, especially while retreating soviets burn what they can't take with them.

The scenario of us non-intervention doesn't lead-up to German victory because they overextended themselves, did not build infrastructure, wasted resources on mega weapons even before the war turned against the axis, and countless other problems. The us allowed the allies to win the war quickly and with only soviets taking mass casualties.

The best scenario would be for the uk to make peace with Germany, or for Germany to invade the uk before attacking the ussr, which would be easier without lend lease.

>>53937444
>Whereas an elf would just be good at it.
?

>>53948156
>they're all womanly and weaker than the average human soldier.

12-year-old spotted.

>>53952798
HUGE
ELF
COCKS

>>53950684
No airguns?

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>>53934934
Nigger Private Pyle failed because he had no discipline, physical strength, or endurance. The ONLY thing he did with any degree of talent was shoot targets and eventually people.

>>53949535

Bows do literal shit to good armor.

And arrows don't drop the target fast like in the movies. Large bullets do.

>>53952432
Then there's nothing to "divide." Without American lend-lease Britain would have neither the industry nor the ground firepower (particularly in tanks) to be able to dent Fortress Europe before the Soviets are in Paris.

To put it into perspective, the British used about as many Shermans (17,000) as Matilda II, Churchills, Cromwells and Comets combined, and that's ignoring the M3s, which the British used as a stopgap to replace the tanks lost in France.

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>>53935541
>>53935483
Dwarves are starting to sound like a race that actually exists.

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>>53936978
>Isn't that just the designated marksman? Something every team has at least one of?


Ever seen Jarhead? Modern warfare is too fast or too entrenched in ambush-ridden cities for old-fashioned sniping. SNipers that actually shoot people are usually riding on helicopters or have been camped out for days waiting on a specific target.

The rest of the sniper world spends most of their days scouting, gathering intel; and gets the vast majority of their 'kills' calling in airstrikes and/or artillery.

>>53953799
>And arrows don't drop the target fast like in the movies.
Killing enemy soldier or wounding him to the pint he's unable to fight are almost identical on the battlefield, and arrows while not instantly lethal are very good at incapacitating their targets.

>>53935084
14/13 is better than 20/20 anon...

>>53952950
I don't think so, no.

>>53953799
Bodkin don't real of course.

>>53934802
Not if the setting had Agent Orange.

>>53936001

>implying bunker busters would do little more than rattle the dishes

Dwavern workmanship is better than you give it credit for boy.

>The Dwarves discovered black powder, but only used it as an explosive
>The Elves learn to refine and imbue the powder with magic, making it more suitable for finer and "smaller" things, fireworks are born
>The Humans learn how to weaponize refined black powder, ushering forth the Age of the Gun

>The Kobolds, once considered a dumb, even non-sentient race, have figured out the secrets of gun manufacturing from stolen goods
>While the arms they manage to make are barely more than single-use hand cannons that are loaded with alchemically unstable powder substitute with a worryingly high catastrophic failure rate, they're learning
>Stealing, mostly, for now, but learning
>Even organizing, explosion of new caste-based systems and language are suspected
>For a Kobold, the gun is Good
>Eventually, Kobolds begin stealing other ideas and setting up rudimentary kingdoms

>Kobolds are backwards, centuries behind the curve, and almost universally hated by other cultures that barely recognize them as sentient, let alone another civilization
>They're crafty little fuckers with a worryingly high aptitude for warfare, if nothing else, and the numbers to survive even suicidal battle tactics
>On top of this, their culture is so heavily warped by the gun that it is revered in most and even worshipped in some groups, and combat naturally follows not far behind in terms of importance

>>53965922
>muh dwarven worksmanship will totally invalidate earthquake bombs and bunker busters because it's that good
>muh elven magic will totally invalidate white phosphorous, agent orange and napalm because it's that good
I don't know why these two races hate each other when they think so annoyingly alike.

>>53964879

Bodkins do shit to plate.

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>>53934802
>Can you even imagine how terrifying elves would be in a setting with firearms?

Yeah, it's called shadowrun, ya git

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>>53934901

That is correct. The individual marksmanship of the soldier is not that important in large scale combat. No battle has been won by two sides shooting at each other at a distance until one of them has given up or destroyed.