/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

First for there is no supreme splat, everything is fun in its own right

>>53919576
Equality isn't fun

It's also entirely unrealistic, even for something that is inherently unrealistic in the first place.

>>53919576
Fun is a completely subjective term. I find Vampire
and Hunter most fun because I prefer street-level, investigate style games. My ideal game is basically a detective story fired through a supernatural lens. Someone else might prefer Mage because they want cosmic-level adventures with high stakes, with the fate of the cosmos hanging in the balance. Different strokes for different folks.

Hey CofD/ & /wodg/, I'm fresh from an eight year Mage game using the 1ed rules. I've only recently actually read through the whole rulebook and discovered that the GM was more or less winging a big shitload of the system and had created this weird bastardised hybrid that we ended up getting used to.

And now I've discovered there is a new edition of Mage, so I'm just wondering - what's the difference between the new edition and Awakening?

>>53919780
Better but much gayer art.

>>53919776
Sometimes all you need is a handful of strong powers and a long time to use them

>>53919394
>How many changes do you make to the setting in your games?

General: No aspiration or its equivalents mechanics in any game.

For mage:
1) Atlantis is a tinfoil conspiracy talk.

2)Reality isnt a prison it just is and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

3) There arent arcanums 6+.

4) The war of Seers vs Diamond is mostly for turf and resources, no reality shaping of any kind.

5) No wisdom.

6) You nimbus will get tainted the more you use your magic a certain way and it might aid, flavor or fuck with your magic.

7) Casting sympathetic looses you the exceptional success options. And there is no "Ignore withstand"

8) Successes on the aiming roll allows you to add potency to a spell. (Case per case basis, mostly for direct combat spells).

9) Using shifting sands automatically give you a permanent paradox condition.

For Werewolf:
1) Fetishes 5 are are now 4 or 3 because a sword that does 8s again for the high price of putting an city father in it just not worth it.

2) Flayed lunes can teach out-aupice gifts to bale hounds.

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>>53919780
Firstly, every spell starts off with base, defualt, weak factors.
Must be thrown/touch vector, takes your ritual interval to cast, lasts for seconds, can target one person, etc.

You must "Reach" to increase those factors to their advanced value, you get one free reach for meeting the Arcanum requirement, and one more for each point you exceed it by. If you stay within your free reach, your spell does not cause Paradox without Sleeper witnesses.

So no more bullshit with all Forces spells being "vular", but Mind spells getting a free ride.
For every uncompensated reach, you get Paradox dice dependant upon your Gnosis.
You can either contain successes in your Soul and roll Wisdom to soak them as Bashing damage, suffering a "condition" if that isn't enough.
Or you can release them (but nobody ever does) and it corrupts your spell.

Another major change is you must fully define your spell before you cast. You can't just attribute successes to various elements after having cast. Either you succeed, or you fail, or you get an exceptional success (5 successes) and your spell goes off marvelously.

Also, your base dice pool is Gnosis + Arcanum, however you can enhance that with Yantras, symbolic keys you fit into your Imago to strengthen it with Supernal symbolism found in the Fallen world. Your tool is one such yantra, so is a suitable environment, sacraments, high speech, even spending merit dots to imbue your Shadow Name with mystic potency. You can use a number of those based on your Gnosis.

Also spell tolerance is gone, and spell control is just your Gnosis, and you have to spend increasing amounts of Reach to exceed it.

Also (importantly) most "speed bumps" are gone. You can use the Practice of Weaving to affect all life, all minds, and all matter, and there's no arbitrary restriction on stuff like "Gold" only being accessible at 5 dots. Also the necessity of conjunctive Arcana has been decreased, so you can guess a phone number with Fate 2 alone.

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>>53919648

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>>53919983
Also Rituals are gone. Well, not gone, but less bullshit.
No spending 2 whole days casting a turbo-charged spell.

Ritual speed just saves you a point of Reach, and if you repeat the interval you get a +1 die bonus, up to a maximum of +5
Which is really still quite helpful, but only at Gnosis 3 when you're spending 6 hours, rather than 18.

You only ever roll once.
Well, sometimes you can roll twice and choose one result (Choose the Thread), but only one roll is ever counted.

>>53920043
>I don't like your opinion therefore it must be bait

You're hilarious

>>53919983
>Or you can release them (but nobody ever does) and it corrupts your spell.

I still hate this, it used to be (fluffwise) only the Guardians would really do this on any real large scale because what fucking stupid mage wants to let paradox anywhere near their soul.

>>53920090
No no it's not that, it's how it's basically dead center what the latest shitstorms have been about. Perfectly set up to start fights about unimportant nonsense all over again

>>53919983
>>53920062

Thanks for the succinct answer, anon.

>>53919780
Oh boy, where to begin

First off, 2nd edition Awakening has explanations of the practices in the core book, which greatly helps with creative thaumaturgy

Second, there is no Subtle and Vulgar Magic anymore, only whether Sleepers are degrading your potency and if you tried to put too many factors into your magic to properly control it.

Speaking of which, Reach. Reach is a new mechanic which has the ability to decide whether a spell will cause Paradox or not. You have 1 reach for meeting a spell's requirements, and this reach will often go into Instant Action Casting. Adding more Reach might narrow down useful information in a Knowing/Unveiling spell, cause a spell that is meant to magically grapple someone to also death Potency damage, cause a healing spell to also give all the benefits of a good night's sleep, that kinda thing. Things that would be adjacent to the spell's goal, but not the focus of the spell all together and not quite requiring another spell all together. Use more Reach than you have for "Free", aka more than 1+1 more for every dot you exceed the spell's requirement, and you risk Paradox. Its meant to be more of a "How much can you control" thing for magic, rather than "Do the gods hate you today".

cont

>>53920223
Mysteries are now a thing, by the way. Basically any sorta magic leaves an imprint on the world in the form of what Mages call a Mystery. Mysteries can be Solved for Arcane Insight (Arcane Beats, 1 fifth of an Arcane XP if you are that new to 2nd edition) and knowledge of what happens. Opacity is the difficulty of a Mystery, and is set to the level of the Arcana used, or whatever it would be in Mage terms times 1.5 if from another splat. So a Mage might find insight into Mind Arcana by studying the after effects of a Vampire's Dominate, or a Master's spell, and in the case of the Vampire would actually find it harder to learn about things. Opacity is the difficulty to make a roll to learn "Deep Information", things like "What was the purpose of this spell". Opacity is lowered by a Scrutiny Roll, Arcana+Gnosis in whats called Focused Mage Sight. You gotta get an amount of successes equal to Opacity to lower it by 1, so a Opacity 3 Mystery requires 3 successes to lower to 2. Once its at 0 Opacity though you learn everything about the spell/power used that can be learned through a Supernal lens: You might learn that a Vampire used Dominate on a victim they made eye contact with in order to disable them, but you would be left to your own devices to learn that they used it to feed. A spell however leaves its full Imago bare though.

cont

>>53920239
Attainments are now plentiful. Every Arcana has Counterspell as its 1 dot attainment, there is a useful tool for a second dot one as well as Mage Armor, and the tools they give keep getting more and more useful the more dots you have till you hit Master and can start making your own Rotes.

Rotes now have the benefit of being considered a Master for the purposes of Reach, so if there is a spell you like the Reach factors of, get it in Rote form. Rotes also give the option to add a Skill to your Arcana+Gnosis roll, instead of being Attribute+Skill+Level Arcana.

Legacies now have 5 attainments.

Really that is all the big stuff. Other things are minor fluff changes, merit changes, things like that. Personally I believe its a much more functional game now for just having better creative thaumaturgy rules in the book itself, but that's me.

>>53920223
>>53920239
>>53920259

Are mages still overpowered or have they been nerfed down to reasonable levels?

>>53920259
>>53919983
God fucking damn it I forgot about Yantras. How the fuck could I forget about Yantras

>>53920288
Mages are still overpowered. They shit on everything.

Is this a bad thing? Depends on how you look at it.

>>53920288
Mages still are gonna be powerful, but not as stupidly powerful without risking dangerous things. While a Mage still has access to lots of tools to use, they have to be careful about overloading them. Yes a mage could In Theory use 10 Reach to make a REALLY FUCKING AMAZING spell but that is also lots of fucking paradox that is gonna be rolled, and lots of potential for their AMAZING AWESOME SPELL to go haywire and do anything from helping enemies to ripping open rifts into the Abyss which will want to eat the Mage in question

That stops being as much of a problem for them though as they gain dots in Spheres though, so if you wanna do crossover a good way to limit the mages is saying they can only raise Gnosis/Arcana when you approve of it or with Arcane XP

>>53920371
And by "As much of a problem" I should specify: A Mage can only ever get 6 free reach, and that is on a Arcana 1 spell in an Arcana they have mastered while using a dedicated tool. And even then they are still rolling a Chance Die for paradox, its just effectively never gonna come up 10 and fuck them over in that situation.

Unmaking and Making are still borked as fuck though, so once again please be careful when you allow someone to gun for Mastery

>>53920371
Which is why a Demesne is now a must-have for any powerful Mage.
Infinite free reach so long as the soul doesn't leave the Demesne when cast?
Fuck yes.

>>53920259
>Rotes now have the benefit of being considered a Master for the purposes of Reach, so if there is a spell you like the Reach factors of, get it in Rote form.
Wait, what? What page?

>>53920423
And as long as the spell doesn't target something outside it either. You can boost your stats in a demesne but you can't raise someone's outside it with unlimited reach

>>53920358
Yeah, I'm not big into the lore of Mage but isn't that like their whole deal?

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>>53920441
So if you are casting a Forces 2 spell on rote you are considered to have 4 reach

>>53920502
That's what I meant.
You can turbocharge your stats in a Demesne, then wander out to kick that Seer's ass.

But not Sympathetically Unmake someone outside of the Demesne, unless they too are in a suitable Demesne.

>>53920544
page 112 by the way

>>53920571
It's not like you need a Demesne to Unmake someone into oblivion though.

>>53920571
You could cast the massive nuke spell in your Demesne and hang it for a later time.

>>53920588
Unmaking does require a lot of Potency to take effect though, otherwise Withstand plinks it

This is of course why I would make it so you can't drop dice for Potency, you gotta use Reach

>>53920588
It isn't.
But subjects you might want to be that heavy handed with probably have the ability to bite back.

And I'd much prefer to annihilate someone from Sympathetic Range, rather than have the chance of losing the Initiative roll and getting Unmade myself because he knew I was coming.

Can we also just take a moment to stop, breath, and remember that Masters are rare and often weird individuals so Making and Unmaking are usually off the table?

>>53920637
What, your games don't routinely get to Master and Archmage-level play? You must not be playing right.

>>53920637
To speak at a Convocation, you need to be a Master.
They're not that rare.

So if a i am understanding the rules right. You gain free reach equal to the highest arcanum you are using.

How much would change the game if instead you get free reach for every yantra you use? I am aiming for more ceremonies and more flavor on the casting.

>>53920616
Potency won't matter much after a certain point.

:^)

>>53920652
you are reading this wrong. You get 1 reach for being able to cast the spell, and 1 more for every dot above the spell's requirement you have. If you cast a level 2 spell while at 5 dots you have 4 reach. If you cast a level 2 spell at 2 you have 1 reach

Reminder that Masters will eventually gather Exceptional Successes with major ease.
The chances become ludicrously high. Withstood just isn't a factor to them after a certain point.

http://anydice.com/articles/new-world-of-darkness/

Masters are a bit -too- strong.

>>53920616
Not if you get five successes on the roll - or three, with a praxis. Your base dicepool is at least ten at that point, too.

>>53920620
>But subjects you might want to be that heavy handed with probably have the ability to bite back.

Have fun pissing off a minimally powerful Cabal.

>>53920757
Yes, Masters can waste lesser Mages.
Which is why the Orders and the Consilium exist.

>>53920738
>Masters are a bit -too- strong.

By what definition? Mage at Master/Arch-Master level isn't a street level game anymore.

>>53920288
One of the options for an exceptional success on a spellcasting role is: "The spell ignores any Withstand levels and takes effect at full Potency."
For 1 experience, you can learn a spell as a "praxis," which lowers the requirements for an exceptional success to 3 successes.
You can probably tell where this is going once you get the Practice of Unmaking, or even Patterning.
To make it even more fun, you don't need to have one dot higher in your Arcana for casting a spell at Sympathetic range.

>>53920827
In comparison to other playables. Masters just win at everything. Exceptional Successes make Potency/Withstand pointless against them.

I still acknowledge the thematic principles behind it though.

>>53920827
Arch-Master is entirely divorced. Masters are supposed to have a finger or two in the pie, even if it's only in a cursory way.

>>53920837
...and then there are Rotes

Exceptional Successes come so easily to Masters.

>>53920850
So the issue is Mages can get faster stronger than other playables? Does that really make them 'too strong'?

>>53919780
play game for 8 years, dont bother to read the rules. You deserve what you get. Though if it lasted 8 years couldnt have all been shit right?

>>53920967
>Played game for 8 years
>GM specifically asked us not to read rules
>Wanted us to go through the Mage experience with no preconceived notions
>GM taught us the rules we needed to know as they came up, as our characters gained a deeper understanding of magic and the setting.
>Gameless anons forget the first rule of /tg/

>>53920616
>Unmaking does require a lot of Potency to take effect though, otherwise Withstand plinks it

Why even fish for Potency when Exceptional Successes score it full and flat-out ignore Withstood ratings?

Hell, Masters are going to score such rolls constantly. The chances to get ES rolls can be higher than 90% even without cheesing things.

>>53921011
Don't play D&D?

Every time masters are brought up my blood boils.

It's literally an example of unashamed Mage supremacy.

Writers basically went "my fav splat legit beats your fav splat 1v1 ALL TEH TIEM without any way to defend against meh!!!"

Horrible

>>53921028

1. BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.
2. PARTY ON, DUDES. (AND DUDETTES)

>>53921050

That seems like an odd thing to be angry about. Do you expect every playable creation in the World of Darkness to be perfectly balanced against each other? That seems like a weird way to look at a setting.

I mean, if they brought in Gods as a playable splat and they shat all over Mages would you get just as pissy with them?

>>53921078
>if they brought in Gods as a playable splat and they shat all over Mages would you get just as pissy with them?

Pick something else. Mages- Errr, Archmages already challenge the mightiest of gods as per their theme.

>>53919780
Paradox in nWoD is a bit toothless compared to oWOD. Theoretically. In practice, it tends to be a little more unpleasant unless you're rolling mind. Power level in nWoD takes a dip from oWoD, and mages get a lot more fucky and delicate. A few ways to get paradox-less abilities. Thematic differences.

Can't help you on 2e, haven't bought or pirated the book yet.

>>53921078
I think the beef with Mage as a splat is the fact that they can eventually confront the strongest of beings in the setting once Archmastery has been achieved.

This includes gods and other horrors.

>>53921113
>I think the beef with Mage as a splat is the fact that they can eventually confront the strongest of beings in the setting once Archmastery has been achieved.

Yeah, that's my gripe. I'm fine with the average Mage being more powerful than a Vampire -- I expect that, it makes sense, it's thematic. But I do get a bit cheesed about the fact that Archmages -- PLAYABLE CHARACTERS -- can 1v1 Luna and shit.

>>53921113

I'll admit my experience with Mage is a little fluid because of a GM that love homebrewing shit, but is that really that much of a problem?

My understanding of Archmastery was that it literally broke the rules - it was outside of the system. On top of the sheer XP cost of getting to Archmastery, it was also an in-game quest to find another Archmaster to teach you how to get to those lofty heights.

And then there's the sheer mind-fuckery of Abyssals.

>>53921191
An Archmage is like an Epic Level Character in D&D. Its not something you normally play.

>>53921191
>I expect that, it makes sense, it's thematic. But I do get a bit cheesed about the fact that Archmages -- PLAYABLE CHARACTERS -- can 1v1 Luna and shit.

I don't think I can really understand this sort of gripe. Is your issue that players can have a lot of power in a setting where other splats focus on low level abilities?

For context, do you disagree with the Deathwatch and Rogue Trader splats in the 40k range because they are so OP compared to things like Only War or Dark Heresy?

Or is it a general disagreement with the idea of playing powerful characters, like in Exalted or Nobilis?

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>>53921191
Now all I can imagine is some muscular zangief-knockoff RKOing Luna in the middle of a conversation with a few Elder Werewolves.

>>53921192
You don't *need* to find another Archmage. Can't, in some cases, for some Seekings.

Archmastery isn't *that* hard. You'll never get there if the GM doesn't allow it, sure, but that's everything in game and you CAN do it. It's far from impossible.

>>53921231
I think it's the fact that Mage devalues the rest of the setting with this stuff, and the prime defense is "oh well it's not really a crossover totes".

>>53921269
So what are the rules for actually hitting archmastery? When we played part of leveling up an Arcanum was studying it and actually having access to a some kind of either tutor or grimoire that you can learn from.

>>53921102
Paradox in 2e basically is asking for the GM to fuck with your spells

Every success on a Paradox roll means there is an extra factor in the spell that you did not put there. This can be anything from your Forces mute zone spell making somewhere else louder to your your Spirit spell summoning angry spirits

Exceptionals on the paradox roll end up with you having to deal with even nastier things like incursions or just a really, really nasty GM

>>53921269
Archmastery, lorewise, is ridiculously hard to achieve.

Most who attempt it fail. The successful Archmages are a minority.

>>53921249
Now all I can imagine is a Archmaster who challenges Gods and shit to normal, power free wrestling matches

>>53921284
How do you feel Mage devalues the rest of the setting, when they've been part of the setting for a while?

Again for context, would you feel the same if Spirits were a playable splat and you could reach Luna levels that way?

>>53921303
Pick up Imperial Mysteries. It should be in the pasteebin.

Short version: Gnosis 6, 5 dots in one arcanum, 4 in three others. Do whatever ingame work your GM deems necessary (Including finding a quintessence), and have the XP to buy a 6th dotd of the arcanum in question.

>>53921303
You need to be Gnosis 6 or higher, be a Master of at least one Arcanum, have enough experience to purchase the sixth dot of the Arcanum, get your hands on a Quintessence (a plot device), have enough Arcane Experience to cross the Abyss and form a Lustrum in the Supernal, and defeat some powerful Supernal entity in an activity that the ST decides on.

>>53921334
I've seen a fansplat for Purified that turned their version of 'ascension' into Shadow Gods using the IM rules and I still thought that was a bit dodgy. There are powerful characters, and then there's having a secondary pantheon for a splat that is capable of drop-kicking the primary pantheon of other splats.

If they ever got into 'the sponsors in the ascension war' throwaway line they might put it to rest. Assuming it wasn't yet more mages.

So I have a question about imperial mysteries
Am I supposed to just accept that every single non archmage mage in the game is an irrelevant unimportant two bit extra with no purpose? I mean it seems a little weird for the book to basically be saying 'Hey remember all those cool things you did in your mage game? Yeah non of those matter in the slightest.' since the next time any archmage does an imperium rite the changes to reality are going to be so sweeping your characters will never have been born.

>>53921191
The theme of Imperial Mysteries is that you are in a cold war, with all the big god-like things pointing their nukes at each other. The moment some Archmage beats Luna, he'll get blasted by literally everyone else, and then the timeline gets rebooted so that Luna is still alive, and he is not.

>>53921397
Exactly.
Which is why every non-Archmastery game operates under the assumption that this is the "final" reality.
Because you will never have known another one.

From an Archmastery point of view, the fall might have happened 5 billion iterations of the world ago, or it might have just been 500.

Or even 5.

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>>53921333

>>53921303
First off a mage has to find some method of getting to the Supernal

Once they find such a method, they have to cross the Abyss and successfully face every potential method of temptation possible, and several impossible. If they fail they become abyssal creatures I forget the name of that cause massive amounts of paradox by existing near other mages.

If they manage to succeed in doing that they gotta create a Lustrum, if I'm remembering the name right, which is a thingy that lets them survive being in the Supernal and actually parse the information that is around them. By doing this, they affirm themselves as a Supernal Truth, and thus achieve Archmastery. This fails if anyone decides to show up and fuck with them, if they don't have a strong enough will (read: don't have a dot of willpower left over after facing the abyss), or if they are just plain unlucky.

Obviously, all of this is INCREDIBLY hard to do. One of the easiest possible methods is gaining Gnosis 10 and creating the 6th attainment for your legacy, but even that is not guaranteed to be possible.

>>53921397
Cosmic horror is cosmic. It becomes even more horrifying when you realize that the horrors aren't as alien as you thought.

One way to remedy this in your games is to go with the "many worlds" interpretation that the book offers. The Archmaster isn't changing reality, he's being shunted into an alternate timeline where the stuff he described occurs.

>>53921448
Qliphoth. They're basically p-zombies. You have to suffer paradox, and the paradox means you start seeing the world the way the Qliphoth does - with abyssal overlay. Absorb sleepers and lesser mages into their own hideous hellscape. Have to be infected by them to kill them. Can move around as though they had their own Road.

>>53921484
OH, so that is the exacts on what they are.

I was wondering what the equivalent of Marauders was in New World

So, what's the most powerful version of Hunter? Reckoning? 1e? 2e? My players tend to like having humans that can at least have a sporting chance in combat against the otherworldly and, since I don't know a ton about the setting, I thought I'd ask.

>>53921456
>The Archmaster isn't changing reality, he's being shunted into an alternate timeline where the stuff he described occurs.

There's something so weirdly Mage in being cost-effective with magic like that.

>Fuck, re-writing reality is going to take a shitload of power.
>Fuck that noise, I'll just jump on three dimensions over where it's already in place.

>>53921514
Reckoning. Fucking mini-solars.

>>53921508
Nah, those are super-duper Marauders, and they're probably closer to Aswadim than anything, and even that's wrong.

Marauders are Banishers in the New World.

>>53921284

It's not, or at least it really shouldn't be treated that way. It's less one setting and more like nine individual settings with a lot of overlap, like an anthology series. The only game in the line that actually treats the Chronicles of Darkness as a full on setting as opposed to hints and optional ideas is Beast. Deviant, depending on how things go, might be the second line to treat it like a full setting.

Yes, the rules make crossover possible, but that doesn't mean it should be the default, especially when speculating about the settings of the individual games, unless we're explicitly talking about Beast.

>>53921514
.... and to actually give you advice, I'd recommend Mage, since its the only full template where you are still explicitly a human (at least till you change that), or letting your players play as Compacts or Conspiracy hunters, as they get tools to deal with supernaturals.

Reckoning though you may be human, but you aren't mortal... plus Reckoning sucks, both in its weird tonal whiplash and mechanics

>>53921448
>Obviously, all of this is INCREDIBLY hard to do

And people complain about this?

>>53921333
I'm liking more and more the idea of a God themed splat.

>>53921514
A Hunter in a Conspiracy that gives either gives him fancy tech, or supernatural powers, or something like that.

Taskforce VALKYRIE, for example, is the government's anti-supernatural hit agents armed with plasma guns.
The Cheiron Group is a corporation that studies the supernatural to find ways to profit on it. They give their agents various implants and monster body parts.

>>53921543
See, I have talked to people about this, but I've never really thought of even the Banishers who can't troll their magic being Marauders. The thing that made Marauders so scary is that they force EVERYTHING into conforming to their own fucked up reality, not just always having cockroaches crawling over them because they have a fear of bugs and are a severely fucked up Mastigos/Thyrsus

>>53921587
No, see, Qliphoth and Marauders/Banishers are nothing alike. The only similarity is that they warp your reality to theirs. And even that isn't quite right.

I keep seeing the same shit thrown around that ES Unmaking is essentially unbeatable in combat encounters.

Is there absolutely no way to counter this? Not even a dozen max level vampires/werewolves ?
What about anti-magic?

>>53921607
Not to mention that Marauders as they were can't exist quite the same way as they did in oWoD because reality isn't consensual anymore.

>>53921612
Look man, the only way to counter it is to require the Mage to spend so many spell factors increasing the number of targets to get every single Vampire at the same time, that he'd have to be incredibly lucky to get an Exceptional Success.

>>53921574
I could roll with a God themed splat. Could be neat as hell.

Also, yes, people complain about this. Archmastery is all but explicitly impossible to get unless your GM says yes, you can be an Archmaster


Now, as an aside, I just had a really dumb idea: What if Archmasters were stupidly common since there are essentially infinite realities which can make them

>>53921587
>troll their magic
I meant control, but yes, their magic is in fact trolling them

>>53921625
>I could roll with a God themed splat. Could be neat as hell.

Go play Scion. A god splat isn't thematically appropriate given current standing lore.

>>53921625
google 'fiction.live scholomance quest' and read from there, puzzling out the setting as you go.

>>53921580
This is for Vigil. Can't comment on Reckoning.

>>53920680
From what I remember the Voormas curse was absolute, it works on whoever on whatever is/are associated with directly killing him, considering he's a top level archmage, I think it works on anyone, even the Unnamed.

>>53921654
Kind of what I meant - I'm not sure the Unnamed counts as a thing, more of a lesion on reality, a completely alien parasite continuum latched onto the world. He was as alien as his dark masters at the end.

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>>53921650
I'll take a look into that, thanks.
>>53921537
You do got me curious, anon: what's a mini-solar?
>>53921562
I don't know about Mage. It seems pretty complicated from what like 90% of the rest of the thread is talking about. I think a few of them just really want to beat a werewolf over the head with a table leg, rather than propelling him into the sun when they have force 2 force life push sphere or whatever they're talking about in the thread.

>>53921675
The Unnamed is entirely human despite being the most powerful named (heh, get it?) mage in canon.

Usually sufficiently powerful archmages 'evolve' into other entities.

>>53921640
>A god splat isn't thematically appropriate given current standing lore.

Why so?

>>53921685
A mini-solar is a Solar Exalted, in miniature.
>>53921690
I haven't got the book available at the moment, but I'm pretty sure in his entry it talks about how he's as bad as his masters, and his 'war form' was a hole in reality.

>>53921612
A Gnosis 5 Master is going to be more frightening than a BP 10 Elder / PU 10 Uratha

>>53921703
Gods in WoD are weird are variously defined throughout multiple gamelines. You would need to combine them all to make it work, which just won't happen. Ever.

>>53921705
The biggest monsters are almost always human.

His war form is a whirling mass of horrors.

>>53921730
Yeah, look. You're not going to convince me without a bit of text saying he's entirely human from the book itself rather than your own thematic interpretations. Sorry.

>>53921625
>Now, as an aside, I just had a really dumb idea: What if Archmasters were stupidly common since there are essentially infinite realities which can make them

>Infinite Archmasters get together
>Figure out their existence is a game
>Concoct a plan to escape into reality
>Mage players start finding their actions and thoughts influenced by their time playing their characters
>The first affected were the creators of the Mage gameline
>Spend their time making Mages stronger and making more people play Mage
>Our world is slowly being taken over, i cant keep writing this theyre onto me god help theyre at the door tell my dad i died figh

>>53919775
Mage can be properly urban-fantastic as it should be and is explained in the very first narrative shown through the core book for Ascension, it's just that people always get over the line and powergame because they can't properly roleplay.

>>53921745
Archmages can only become so many things. He's also classified as Qlipothic Oracle.

There's no reason to label himself as a non-human. Why does it even matter to you anyway?

Is there specific resources I should read to get a feel for settings? I've read some of the rulebooks, but I feel like their descriptions are kind of lacking.

I'm specifically looking for Kindred of the East, VtM and VtR, but anything else would nice.

>>53921745
Mages are human

:^)

>>53921777
The Qliphotic Oracle is a seperate Aswadim.

It matters because I'm not convinced as to your way of thinking on the subject. You seem like you're trying to convince me, I've given you what will convince me.

>>53921712
>Gods in WoD are weird are variously defined throughout multiple gamelines. You would need to combine them all to make it work, which just won't happen. Ever.

So something American Gods/Unknown Armies-esque couldn't work? Mortals who inadvertently start to live to the stereotype of a deity and begin to manifest abilities based on that? A system where the amount of power they have is linked to how well they live up to that archetype, but the more they live up to it the less capable they are of breaking out of those patterns?

Different powers and abilities based on what purview your god falls under, and which pantheon they would have belonged to?

>>53921782
The Ninth Gate is a good movie for mortals in the World of Darkness. The Sorcerer's Apprentice with Nicholas Cage is an alright sort of thing for Mage.

>>53921794
You seem biased.

There's nothing to suggest the Unnamed is a non-human. It doesn't even matter to begin with.

>>53921805
It wouldn't work in current WoD.

We already have definitions for gods.

>>53921829
'Biased' doesn't mean accepting your viewpoint without question.

I haven't been able to find news of it sandwiched between all the dark eras stuff, but has there been any news of Geist 2e? I would have expected we'd have seen an excerpt or two by now, for something at second draft for so long.

>>53921846

I think it would work great. Especially with all the other weird shit they've come out with. Change the name from Gods to Avatars or something if it helps unknot your panties, but I think it would work fine.

>>53921852
Unbiased*

>>53921745
Archmages either become Exemplars, Oracles or Celestines. Or even stay as they are.

The Unnamed chose Oracle status. Which isn't a separate species.

>>53921895
can he fuck a human and have babies? Yes = human..

there you go.

>>53921879
I just don't agree, sorry. We would have to reform our current understanding of deities.

It would also demand crossover.

>>53921905
dont all the different splats have different views of god/s?

>>53921937
Precisely. A god themed splat is a lot trickier than it sounds.

>>53921937
They all have the same lists of god-like entities that do exist, and have fairly consistent notions of how powerful something has to be to be a god. The only difference is that a group of Werewolves or Mages might not be deterred from fucking with something simply by learning it is a god, whereas others have nothing to gain.

Okay, fuck it, thought experiment time. I don't even know off the top of my head the mechanics of this so I'm just gonna write down what happens

Gnosis 10 Master in, lets say Death/Matter so its all encompasing, wants to Unmake a Vampire. Now since its kinda unfair to throw this at a Neonate vampire, and lets be honest a neonate is not gonna piss off an twicefold master in most realities, this will be an Elder vampire. and we'll say he has an effective Stamina of 12, 5 from Resilience and 7 "natural", because this Elder is a combat vampire for some reason. Since "Unmake Vampire" is an oddly specific Rote/Praxis to have, we're gonna say they haven't made that Rote/Praxis

We're gonna say that since 10 dice has an aprox 23.3% chance of a exceptional according to the math I've found with a bit of googling ( http://simantics.blogspot.com/2011/04/white-wolfs-world-of-darkness.html ) and I am not nearly good enough at math at 1:41 am to figure out 15 dice, I'm gonna assume that the chance is just the equivalent of 5 and 10 dice added together. Feel free to correct me, but otherwise this is just extending the thought experiment for the maths of getting our Potency up to punch.

Now, lets say our Master has a chance, SOMEHOW, to use all 6 of his possible Yantras he can include in a single spell. Remember, this takes a total of 6 actions to include them all. Now lets be generous with them and say that its 2 die yantras each. 12 dice total to boost, but only 5 of them can be added to the roll because thems the rules.

cont

>>53921972
The lists don't matter. It's the lore surrounding them and how they even exist.

Spirit gods are not the same as death gods. Supernal gods are weirder, Abyssal horrors weirder still.

>>53921978
Our dicepool is now 20 (27), and we need to get our Potency to 12, so lots of them are gonna be dropped for Potency. Specifically, we're gonna drop 24, because 24/2 equals 12. 12 is exactly the potency we'll need to Unmake our Vampire whether this spell is Death, Matter, or Death+Matter, so we're in luck. We've got 3 dice left! Now, SPEAKING PURELY IN THE THEORETICAL, this mage could have a lot more dice to this roll if they managed to get good enough Yantras. Problem is that good Yantras are a lot like tasty endangered animals: There ain't many of them and people are kinda really tempted to use them up. So no, you likely aren't gonna have higher than a 2 die yantra. And if you did, you probably already used it to help you stop a world ending threat.

So our mage throws a Potency 12 unmaking at a Elder Vampire who could honestly be more rediculous if I'm assuming they pissed off a Gnosis 10 twofold master. They have 3 dice. 6 if they Willpower. Up to 18 more if they are STUPIDLY LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THAT MANY 5 DIE YANTRAS, I CAN NOT STRESS HOW FUCKING STUPIDLY LUCKY THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE TO HAVE THAT MANY. Even 3 die Yantras are pretty rare, so seriously, remember that.

Now, the moral of our story? Yeah, our Gnosis 10 Twicefold Master can unmake a Blood Potency 7 Vampire with a good bit of success, but it ain't at all easy for them. I gave them a fuckload of liberty with the 6 Yantras. Most mages will only get 1, maybe 2, unless its a ritual.

Moral of the story? Take away that exceptional for ignoring Withstand if you wanna balance Mages.

>>53921966
>>53921972

so wouldnt that make a god themed splat easy? since everyone has a different view of what the gods are you could make a game all about playing as avatars of gods with different clans/schools representing different views of what you are

>>53921978
>>53921995
Ummm, you can use a single +6 Mudra.

>>53922006
we are assuming that this mage does not have the oddly specific rote of "Unmake Vampire"

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>>53921995
>Take away that exceptional for ignoring Withstand if you wanna balance Mages.

>>53921978
>>53921995
I don't think you would need to be at Gnosis 10 to do all of that. Gnosis 5-6 is enough to one shot a BP 10 vampire.

The chances of an exceptional success can surpass 90% at that level.

>>53921978
>>53921995
Meanwhile a Gnosis 1, Space 3 Mage can create a bubble of looped space the Vampire literally cannot leave. Then in the time it takes for that spell to run out, enclose that bubble in an even larger, better prepared bubble.

>>53922038
motherfucker do you read at all what I wrote or are you just typing our your ass?

>>53922020
Unmake Vampire doesn't sound oddly specific for a Death Mage with a penchant for fighting Elder Vampires.

>>53922047
Probably typing out of my ass. Too tired to care, honestly.

>>53922046
Wrong. That requires Space 4, which requires Gnosis 3. And then you have, once again, the issue of the Vampire's Withstand, or the fact they can probably Clash of Wills that shit

>>53922056
Fine, lets assume this is the first time said Moros has gotten pissy with an Elder since they were much lower Gnosis and didn't make it yet because they didn't wanna waste the perm dot of Willpower

>>53922057
I can at least commend you for being honest

>>53922069
This is why Ban is amazing. It doesn't actually target the enemy unit. It can't be Withstood and fucks you over entirely.

It is (laced with other Arcana) one of the perfect counters when up against vampires and werewolves.

>>53922069
Incorrect.
Ban creates a bubble, which is not Withstood by anyone within it.

>>53922092
>>53922110

Ban still can be Clash of Wills'd

>>53922140
What power is the Vampire using to conflict this looping of space?

A Clash of Wills requires a conflicting power, whereby both of their effects cannot simultaneously take place.

>>53922140
Page reference?

>>53922156
Protean 1, maybe?

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>>53921978
>>53921995

You're making it sound a lot harder than the actuality of things.

>>53922156
Celerity, Protean, maybe even Vigor

I'd be perfectly fine if you said though that you could only Clash it with Celerity if you had a certain amount (3 to match the Arcana level?)

>>53922180
>>53922308
I don't really think so.
It's entirely possible for the space around the Vampire to be looped, while within he's enhanced by those powers.

Those would come into play in beating the Mage to the Initiative, and slacking him before he can bubble you.

>>53922308
That literally makes no sense.

But house rule what you want, right?

>>53922342
I think it makes sense. If the bubble doesn't include some space under the vampire then Protean is specifically being stopped from working, so it could clash it

Celerity is also a supernatural movement power, so I could see powerful enough Celerity trying to push them past the border of the bubble

>>53922495
It makes sense to you, maybe. But not the majority.

>>53922495
The Celerity argument feels like a bit of a reach - like arguing that a mage could increase their speed high enough to run out of the bubble.

Protean is a stronger bet - a supernatural power that specifically affects space would be a better bet against a mage spell that specifically affects space.

>>53921334
My problem with it is I feel like other supernaturals having any sort of self-determination seems unlikely. A huge amount of Vampire elders would be Exarch stooges because they hold centuries worth of built up influence so if you could get one under your thumb you would be set. Werewolves would have to keep close tabs on Mages because of how large an effect they would have on the spirit courts. Things like that.

>>53921359
Link?

>>53922532
That seems fair enough. The only alternative to those issues I could imagine is the notion that after a certain point Mages only really concern themselves with other Mages, and that other Supernaturals - with a few exceptions - are simply beneath their notice.

>>53918634
>>>53918609
>That doesn't change the oversimplified rules approach that is near identical to how the original MET books were written. The weird shitty hunger mechanics not being LARP viable doesn't change the fact that the over simplified rules are following a more LARP style design choice, not that of a table top game.

The V50 rules... They are not a LARP design. They are a rpg.net indie darling design, through and through. I mean just throw Kenneth Hite's name around over there and you have them squeeing like Steven Universe's adult male fanbase at young boys in drag.

Overly simplified, centering around one incredibly gimmicky mechanic, which gets all the hipsters over there a huge hard on for about a year at most, then is forgotten forever.

>>53922532
The answer is simply that normal Mages are vastly outnumbered by the other supernaturals, and if a cosmic being like an Exarch was manipulating you you would never know.

The Exarchs don't manipulate things like a normal person does, they don't need to keep tabs on every single vampire elder.

>>53921846
It sounds like it could work as an Astral based splat. You're somehow tied to a powerful Astral entity and the more you act like them the stronger you get. Of course the more horrible angle would be the stronger you get the less you're you.

>>53922599

>Ken Hite, OSR contributor with plenty or mainstream, traditional game design to his name
>somehow an indie darling who makes oversimplified hipster games

What.

>>53922650
eh, wouldn't be the first time a former developer of more mechanically fleshed-out games decided to go full narrative.

>>53922601
I meant Seer, not Exarch.

I deal with it by using different kinds of lesser magic users. Usually ones that have to bargain wirh demons and spirits because I like that sort of thing theme-wise.

>>53922630
I think I could get behind this. I'd like to see an interesting mechanic built around their Humanity stat, call it...'Apothesis'.

It's entirely built around how much you act like your sponsor. Breaking character drops your Apothesis.

However, it also functions as a hard-limit to how much power your character can have, your 'Deificiation'. Act more like your sponsor grants you the ability to draw on more of their power, but acting less like it hobbles your abilities.

Dual themes of losing individuality and gaining a sense of self awareness.

I'm liking the smell of this.

Vampire vs Werewolf vs Mage

Is the outcome different depending on whether it be OWoD or CofD?
Are mages still the strongest in old?

>>53922766
They are arguably even stronger, especially at the highest tiers of play.

>>53922782
>>53922766

Why hasn't anyone settled this with some definitive experiments?

Get Mage, Werewolf and Vampire players, real munchkin point crushers, and have them each build characters at different XP levels. One fresh off the rack, one with...say...25 xp, then 50, 100 and finally 500. Play around a bit and come back with the results.

>>53922818
Yeah no. Munckinry is heavily in the favor of Mage. Held spells are far too strong. Charms? Forget about it.

>>53922835
>Let's experiment and get some practical results!
>Yeah, no.

Never change, /tg/.

>>53921675
Ah, you kinda have a point, yeah. It reminds me of Soul Eater's Asura when Shinigami-sama said about him being a Kishin through the explanation of "he was simply like that from the very beggining", much like Unnamed was as well, thus selective for the Outer Ones to choose him, like a natural, inherent Nephandi.

>>53921690
>>53921705
>>53921730
>>53921745
>>53921777
>>53921794
>>53921829
>>53921790
>>53921895

Why does it seem to matter if he is or not a human? As my last quoted anon said, mages are human (which many magebros seem to conveniently forget often), and even then, Voormas' curse affects anything that can count as holding a sentience or even intention and had killed him. He could fuck over an artifact, spirit, god or even a fucking rock to continue onto doing (or being used to in the case of the artifact, rock or other) his job through eternity.

>>53922961
>(which many magebros seem to conveniently forget often),

We don't forget we're human. We just disagree with the notion that Sleepers are human.

>>53922835
What the fuck are charms?

>>53922745
Would the fuel stat just be Faith? Or maybe something a bit more unique?
I think the powers would probably work best as groups of unique effects, sort of like Gifts and Facets except with more progression and not split between different sub-splats. Regardless I feel like Miracle is a poor choice, but only because it feels like it would cheapen the meaning of the word. Miracles should probably be a powerful effect you could use a handful of times once per Story. Maybe Blessings?

Sadly I think Beast's Life/Legend actually works best for the Virtue/Vice equivalent. Either that or just keep Virtue and Vice. Fuck, might as well rip off Lairs too and call them Domains.

>>53922989
Time 4 can hang spells. Space can set up contingency Wards. Prime can craft a unique Wonder known as Charms.

Charms are "held" spells in physical form. You can create a hundred Forces 5 nukes the size of pebbles. A bag full of any spell you could ever need, all pre-rolled. Guaranteed to work.

It's dumb.

>>53923004
Hey, there's nothing wrong with ripping out the good bits of shitty splats and trying to make something better with them. How does Beasts Life/Legend and Lairs system work?

Why don't Camarilla sects use Vinculum to ensure loyalty and prevent backstabbing of one another?

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>>53922854
>>53922835
>>53922989
Let me explain this in detail, one more time. The reason Mages are so powerful is because all the other splats have definite abilities. They have a list of things they can do, and that they can not do.

Mages don't. They have facets of reality that they can control, in a FREEFORM FASHION, as long as they can roll enough successes and have high enough ranks in their Facets [whether those be Arcana or Spheres].

They also have by far the most flexible rules for abusing that control, whether it be in the form of Wonders [magic items that can be activated on the fly], Umbroods/Spirits [creatures that have their own powers and can be summoned to your use], Rituals [which lets you roll way more successes then usual], Sympathetic Casting/Coorespondance [lets you cast at a distance, often countries away], and various forms of "hung" spells such as Charms, that lets you roll ahead of time and use the spell later, meaning you can just set down your narrative card that says "I win".

We don't need an experiment because we've had experiments, they're called any given Mage chronicle. In my last Ascension game the players teleported into the fortress of a powerful vampire while he was sleeping, paralyzed him when he woke up with magic, discussed what to do with the statue telepathically, and then when he broke free they chased him down the road at over 40 miles an hour until he burnt up in the sun. They then teleported home, summoned his spirit from hell and interrogated it for what they needed to know.

In another game an Anon was telling me about, a group of Etherites had literally managed to create the equivalent of a kill-sat that they kept using to kill enemy NPCs before they even met them.

We don't need to check stats to stats to see if a Werewolf could beat up a really really buffed Mage, because if the Mage is smart, whether nWoD or oWoD, he'll never even show up to the fight. He'll kill him from across town.

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somebody said charms?

>>53923104
Whoo, that sure is something.

A pity WoD 5e is probably going to massively nerf the power of mages :^)

>>53923054
It's not dumb because the level of prime and whatever spheres you need mastery is justified by the powerlevel
That said people don't want to play sit-around-and-book-learn quest for fifty fucking years to become really powerful so the exposure to high-powerlevel shit is what makes for an exciting mage game

>>53923077
Because Vinculum doesn't stop backstabbing, it just make them obsessed with you.
Yandere is a perfectly valid interpretation of the effects of Vinculum.

Furthermore, that would disincentivise anyone from joining the Camarilla.

Would you join up with the Vampire mafia if you knew they wanted to make you so addicted to their blood you'd give up everything just to be with them?

The mere mentioning of such a thing would massively boost Anarch numbers.

>>53923137
> Vinculum upon someone who hates your shit induces Yandere-like mental effects
> Vinculum 3 regardless equates surefire Yandere

I like the sound of this.

>>53923133
>playing anything beyond revised
Wew, bet you love that tranny cock and sjw theming about now dont ya

>>53923135
You make Charms at two dots

TWO. DOTS.

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>>53923152

>>53923135
Well, to be fair. Lorewise it takes decades upon decades to Master any given Sphere.

Archmastery being centuries.

>>53923153
Yeah and? You still need forces 5 to make your hellscape firecrackers, AND you're still subject to direct paradox, AND you need the proper arete/enlightenment to even get those bitchin spheres with asstons of xp more than any other of the supernatural's powers
By the way nukes are forces 5, matter 3, and prime 2
So sure you're perfectly able after two seekings, a fuckton of quintessence/primal energy and whatever amount of xp it takes with minmaxing to make a nuke factory, but a reminder that the paradox given for any vulgar effect is a SUGGESTION with the caveat of at least one when you do something vulgar and it is perfectly within a storyteller's rights to fucking erase you and your north-korean ass by sending you to the paradox-realm of "get the fuck out of my chronicle"

Not to mention what each and every community of mages would do to you if they even caught wind of your shit with mind or entropy

>>53923184
>Archmastery being centuries
I always found that to be entirely retarded.

Magick in Ascension is about belief.
Only some Paradigms care too greatly about study.
Sure those might make sense to take centuries of study to realise such powers.

However there's no reason other more instinctual Mages couldn't reach Archmastery-grade Spheres through a moment of sheer, pure unadulterated inspiration... As well as spending the experience.

>>53923249
It's both
Archmastery is kinda pointless in the game when with conjunctual effects you accomplish pretty much whatever the archspheres do with far far less xp so long as you're creative OR succumb to other shit (for example the manipulation of paradox is and should be reserved for marauders)
But despite that, while your paradigm isn't limited by anything but your belief, you do have to work out exactly what you believe in, and such grand acts against reality even beyond what humans understand take a while to work out with loads of experience

>>53923249
It's not retarded at all. Such power should come from extreme experience.

Also why should it be exclusive to studying? 'Study' is too broad even.

Magick isn't supposed to be easy anon. Centuries isn't enough if you ask me.

>>53923249
>However there's no reason other more instinctual Mages couldn't reach Archmastery-grade Spheres through a moment of sheer, pure unadulterated inspiration...

I think you've been watching too much anime. It doesn't work that way.

>>53923324
It's not like you haven't been experiencing all the kinds of shit that could spark that inspiration through accumulating the large amount of experience you need to actually by an Archsphere.

I'm not talking about some shithead who's done nothing which his life getting instantly Arete 6, Mind 6 because he "realised" something about reality.

I'm talking about a Mage who hasn't been studying, but has experienced a hell of a lot of shit (probably not taking Centuries through), and has enough experience to buy an Archsphere. And thus solidifies his gestalt understanding and buys the advancement.

>>53923353
Study is subjective here. It's not exclusively an academic pursuit. It could very well be innate and self fulfilling, enlightening.

There's also no reason to conclude that it wouldn't take the mage centuries to pursue it.

>>53923137
But the Viriculum chart specifically states that at high levels you would be willing to put yourself in danger for the person. This can be done after one drink, and with each drink there is a much higher chance of the Viriculum increasing rather than decreasing. Wouldn't wanting to peotect that pwrson imply that you like them? Seems silly how you would just be compelled to protect them even if you hate them. It would be impossible to dislike them with that sort of devotion, as hate implies either a desire or apathy towards the person you hate being harmed. It soesn't make sense.

>>53923396
Sorry for autistic typos

There is a discussion in a wod discord I lurk regarding the horror elements of vtm. Someone posted this:

>You thought you could keep it in check. Claim you were working night shift and sleeping the days, assure everyone that you were still a good mother. Assure yourself. Even if your heart no longer beat, even if she cried in her cradle at the touch of your cold hand when you forgot to force your body warm, you were her mother. You thought you could keep it in check, but you couldn't find one straggler last weekend. You had dealt with hunger before, you had suffered to maintain your position as the hottest girl in school. You thought you could keep it in check, but tonight you woke up to silence. Silence, and three drops of blood on the carpet outside her room.

Thoughts? What is wod horror to you fa/tg/uys?

>>53923444
That's pretty much how the personal horror aspect of Vampire is supposed to go, yeah. It's not supposed to be shallow teenage cuck angst and political slantwank, it's supposed to be shit you can legit have a nightmare about.

>>53923444
Hmm for me it is mostly digging through dark underbelly of the world and facing the unknown much like CoC and similar games.

I do not care much for "personal horror"and if I dig into various splats inner monster I tend to do it for drama and tear jerking.

>>53923056
Life is their Virtue and Legend is their Vice. Life is what they're like as a person and Legend is what they're monster side's thing is, like Selfless/Watcher.1

Lairs are a group of Astral reflections of locations tied together and are where a Beast's Horror lives. Sort of like Beast's preserve locations that are important to their Legend. A Brood of Beasts will naturaly connect their Lairs over time. Its one of the only good things Beast has going for it.

I think having an Astral location that belonged to an Avatar (its the perfect name in my opinion) like Hades has Hades would be cool, and Avatars that formed a Pantheon (sounds like a good name for a group of Avatars) would develop a place like Olympus or Asgard.

>>53923444
I've always thought WoD failed at being horror, despite how much the devs really want it to be. It's dark Urban fantasy but it's not horror.

>>53923556
Well Paradox Wolf decided to ramp up squick for V5. But again that is not horror and more of a gross out

>>53923556
I honestly think it depends on your storyteller and fellow players
If everyone wants to do a quick session of Freak Legion, there's hardly room for deep moral quandering about morality past humanity and such since the people around you don't enable it

And over the years I think everyone who has taken it seriously has formed such insular groups that no one even knows they exist anymore or become jaded about it to the point of whimsy

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>>53923542
>>53923056
>>53923004
Their powers should take inspiration from Fate's Noble Phantasm system.

Each Avatar is extremely powerful as far as most splats go, but should have [at first] only a few specialized powers based on their myths. Perhaps some kind of open system for creating these pseudo-Noble Phantasms.

Using the more powerful ones triggers a Legend check, discouraging an Avatar from simply ending all his problems by summoning the artifacts of his Legend upon his foes.

>>53923104
I usually hate on Mages, but this literally had me laughing out loud for the first time in days.

>>53923961
Also, someone whose Legend bottoms out becomes an "Incarnate", an insane Avatar who actually believes themselves to be the real Buzz Lightyear [err, Karna, Hercules, Merlin, Odin etc]

>>53923964
Which part?

>>53923961
I'm using this.

>>53923981
The idea of Mages summoning the soul of a Vampire after running him into the sun. Motherfuck just can't catch a break.

Last Vampire-related Mage story I read talked about a group who managed to behead some Vampire snitch and went to extreme lengths keeping it alive and believing it was still living out it's day-to-day unexistence so they could follow it through its artificial reality and figure out it what was up. After they got the news they needed, they just used it as an extremely elaborate torture device to pass the time with.

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>>53924023
They should be called "Astra" after the names for divine weapons in Hindu mythology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_(weapon)

An Avatar uses Astra, or crystalized embodiment of his mythic self to do battle. These take the form of everything from specialized techniques, 'magic spells' [not actually Supernal Magic], or legendary artifacts such as Mjolnir or Excalibur.

These artifacts are not in fact these items, they are Astra, mythological ideas brought into physical reality.

For example two Avatars could meet who both have King Arthur as their Legend, both use their Astra to summon Excalibur, and yet summon two totally different weapons with only vaguely similar powers.

>>53924062

I am liking this idea conceptually, especially as a splat to give Mages a playable rival, but where is the horror element of being an Avatar?

I mean, even Mage has a level of horror - not as pronounced as the rest of the WoD line, but it is there.

I'm also getting a sense of the old Leviathan fansplat, feels like it has similar elements but with a broader approach.

>>53924092
As noted above, the horror element is in losing your sense of self or individuality.

An Avatar is someone whose formed a mystical bond with a certain astral entity, usually one representing a mythic hero or god. That bond gives them access to power, but it also tears at their sense of self.

An Avatar who bonds with a being representing Karna may gain extreme proficiency in a bow, as well as powerful Astra representing Karna's numerous magic weapons [such as his bow and armor], but overuse of his power will slowly warp his personality into that of Karna until eventually the original person is hollowed out.

They have become their Legend and become an Incarnate.

As far as competing with Mages goes, you should probably just make peace with the fact that that's not happening. Avatars start more powerful then Mages, but far less versatile. A starting Avatar may be able to summon a weapon capable of decimating a city block, but that and a few minor tricks is all he can do.

They should be very powerful, but very specialized. They command their Astra, and probably have higher stats at character generation [in terms of both Abilities and Attributes] then most other splats, but that's it.

>>53923961
I briefly thought of Fate when I was writing out one of those stream of conscious rambles. A system sort of like Mage's Arcana or Vampires Themes might work, but instead of castings spells they'd be used to build and purchase unique objects and powers based off their legend. Heck, Miracles could be an on-the-fly usage of these things, but they would have a steep cost, like a Willpower dot, automatic lose in their Integrity equivalent or only being able to use it a few times per Story.

I think Avatars probably wouldn't have a traditional x-axis because of their nature. Instead the deity they represent would have a cluster of power building things that are in-theme for them.

Expanding on this further, building out of theme weapons and powers would probably help them in the long run. Maybe have a z-axis that syncrets them with another god, like how Hermes and Thoth became Hermes Trismegistus.

Expanding on this further, maybe they have two possible "transcended" states. One is they shed their body and merge with the Astral god they represent, the other is they break free and become their own god in the Astral ljme some demigods did. Of course even the second one involves disgarding your humanity and becoming an NPC and would take like power stat 10 or something so it isn't really going to come up in most games. Maybe the absorption one could be what happens when you're integrity equivalent hits max on the god side. You lose your own identity and becoming fully god.

>>53924153
Sounds like the bastard offspring of Mage and Beast (except good).

>>53924153
>As far as competing with Mages goes, you should probably just make peace with the fact that that's not happening. Avatars start more powerful then Mages, but far less versatile. A starting Avatar may be able to summon a weapon capable of decimating a city block, but that and a few minor tricks is all he can do.

>Can't even imagine a setting where Gods could rival Mages.

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>>53924234
No the point of being an Avatar is to Ascend [heh see what I did there?].

An Avatar's goal is to seek out things relevant to his Legend and fulfill them, which is how he increases in power and ability, and develops new Astra.

When an Avatar completes his Legend, he ascends into some kind of astral realm at which point he becomes an inspiration for future Legends.

An Incarnate cannot become a Unique New Legend because he's been subsumed by the legend that inspired him. A hero who thinks he's Sir Roland cannot ascend because he effectively IS Sir Roland, he can't become a new Legend in the heavens like the demigods of old.

In terms of enemies, they should fight other Avatars, some kind of spirit beings that arise from their legend [possibly in response to the presence of an Avatar], and all the other splats.

If Beast is the splat about meeting the other splats and being their best friend, Avatar is the splat about punching them in the dick.

Another thing, as the Legend meter decreases, an Avatar's sense of self slides.

At max, the Avatar likely views himself as completely distinct from his Legend. At best he may view himself as the descendant or son of his Legend. As he middles out he may start to develop certain dominant personality traits of the Legend, and come to believe he's his Legend's reincarnation. At low levels the lines become increasingly muddled and the Avatar may outright develop schizophrenia.

And at 0 the Avatar becomes their Legend and thus an Incarnate, completely batshit and entirely convinced they are a legendary hero of old, mystical god, or other force of nature.

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>>53922599
>They are a rpg.net indie darling design, through and through. I mean just throw Kenneth Hite's name around over there and you have them squeeing like Steven Universe's adult male fanbase at young boys in drag.
Not true. RPG.net is teeming with shitloss over V5, has been for like a week. Pic related.

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>>53924298
One becomes a Legend by coming into contact with something from the Legend while also somehow psychically resonating with it. You have to share some kind of sympathy or connection, which triggers the transformation by garnering the attention of the Legend's Astral Spirit.

Something simple like a book about the figure can be enough if you're extremely resonant with the Legend [though this risks beginning your Journey [a term taken from 'heros journey' and refers to an Avatar's lifelong goal to Ascend] while something powerful like the sheath of Excalibur or the remains of the Red Baron's plane will be enough to transform even a moderately sympathetic person into an Avatar.

There can be multiple Avatars of the same Legend walking around, but they must be formed from different artifacts. For instance, a Gilgamesh who was born of a college professor who was bored with his lazy life until he came across an axe in a museum that just so happened to be Might of Heroes would be very different from some insufferable weeb who just wanted it that bad.

>>53924364
beginning your Journey with low Legend*

Being very aligned and coming in contact with a weak Relic means likely starting with a low Legend, whereas being only moderately aligned and coming in contact with a very strong Relic will result in a far saner starting Avatar.

>>53924298
It sounds like we're mostly on the same page actually, with only a few minor differences. I just think Ascension should be bittersweet. You've forged your own legend and become a god, but at the same time your abillity to change would become much more limited because of it. If you've set yourself up as some sort of trickster god you're always going to be a trickster god and your personality and powers would reflect that. Of course this also means that future Avatars could draw on you and it would benefit you in some way.

I just think it should be seen as "winning," but also be seen by some as having too steep a cost.

>>53924429
The cost is that you have to leave the world behind.

Avatars are Living Legends, that means they should draw some inspiration from the Hero's Journey and other literature and mythology concepts, even if their Legend is something like Solomon or Circle instead of a more traditional demigod-warrior-hero.

Finishing your Legend means ending your story. Leaving everything you ever knew behind. Even if you triumph and thus retain your sense of self and individuality, you still leave the world you knew behind forever.

The whole challenge should be walking the razor line between Life and Legend, but an Avatar who actually makes it out alive should not have their selfhood compromised.

>>53924348
Eh I kinda agree that VV shapes up to be an edgelord wankfest

>>53924298
>>53924364
>>53924376
Maybe instead of Legend we shiuld use Mythos. Mythos can mean a collection of myths and legends, but it can also mean a set of beliefs or assumptions about something, which I think ties into the idea that an Avatar's identity is important in a cool way.

>>53924499
I'm partial to Legend just because of the metaphor of becoming a Legend [since a Legend is presumably what the Astral Spirits that inspire them are called, and also what they become when they Ascend].

Plus statements like "Drawing on his Legend" implies the Avatar is drawing on the powers of a specific entity or hero, whereas "Drawing on a Mythos" implies he's just borrowing powers from a general mythology.

>>53924458
Maybe you need to go post to RPG.net, I heard they like like their WoD in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer variety. Can't cut yourself on the domesticated, blunt edge of reformed buddy vampire superheroes, after all!

>>53924527
Maybe you need to stop wanking to vampire trannies that kill trump supporters?

>>53924556
Sounds like someone got *triggered*.

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>>53924527
>>53924578

>>53924499

I like that concept, especially the consequences of it. 'Ascendeding' and becoming pure mythos, whilst ostensibly being the goal of an Avatar and representing a massive boost in power could also put you at the greatest risk.

When you become pure mythology, you are at the behest of public view. Your mythology, and who you are, is now open for consideration. Like the view of Easter and Santa Clause have grown and developed over time, you're basically putting your personality on the auction block.

I definitely feel that your game should continue post-ascension.

The bonus of having avatars who follow you is that just as they draw from your power, you can use them to dictate your powers. If you need the worlds view of you to change, you can get your Avatars to do that.

Alternatively, if you want to make them a powerhouse, you could say that whenever an Ascended Avatar rolls for anything, he rolls for himself and all his avatars simultaneously. Like, if you have Int 4 and Craft 4 and you're making a roll as an Ascended being, you'd also add the Int and Craft of all your avatars to your roll.

>>53924455
I was thinking that yeah, you'll always be you, but you'll also always be you. Which is really good, unless you don't like who you are. That shouldn't be a problem though, because by the time you've transcended you've probably become the best you, you can be.

If Zues disgarded the parts of himself that makes him Zues, he wouldn't be Zues, you know?

Also after Ascending you probably don't have many chances for major character growth anyway, making this entire line of thought an exercise in splitting hairs.

>>53924613
No no no I think that making an Ascended Avatar function like Nobilis kind of takes away from the whole Theme.

The Theme is merging with a heroic legend without losing your mundane sense of self in that heady glory.

Therefore an Avatar who manages to "win" and complete his Legend should under no conditions have his sense of self compromised. He should be eternally self-conquered, he is who he wants to be.

The changing of Legends over time should be viewed as the Ascended constantly evolving and reinventing himself, which causes a change in the way people view him, not the other way around.

It makes no sense to say that a failed Avatar, one whose morality meter bottoms out, has the same end-state as one who makes it to the end with his meter in tact.

>>53924556
>vampire trannies that kill trump supporters
It truly is summer.

>>53924658

Different tastes, I suppose. I'd prefer a storyline where a failed Avatar was just a regular guy. Being an Avatar shouldn't strictly be something that is pursued. It literally means giving up individuality and will for power.

You either avoid temptation and stay vanilla, or you start to crack and lose yourself one piece at a time for the power it brings.

The draw? The extreme level of the power that being a God can bring you. Mage levels of power, in your specific bailiwick.

The downside to the power? Not only are you losing your sense of self, you're losing your ability to even control what you're becoming. Start walking the path of a God of Peace but end all your problems through violence and you may find yourself becoming a God of Retribution without no control of it.

That's more what I'll be using, anyway. I prefer the idea of these steps being irreversible - once you've given up that part of yourself, there's no getting it back.

>>53924704
You missed the mobile game didn't you? That's an actual character in it.
It's every bit as fucking cringy as it sounds.

>>53924658
I agree that you should always be you without being changed by how others view you. I still think it should be incredibly hard to change though, sort of like a Mage who turned themselves into a ghost or goetia to gain immortality.

>>53924746
And from what I've seen of playtest of pre-alpha there is ventrue pedo in there

>>53924743
Eeeeeeh that strikes me as so overdone though.

The idea that you have to walk a fine line between Divinity and Humanity so you can ultimately conquer both is a much better theme then the idea of simply trading away individuality for power and if you're not willing to do that you become a normie again.

Mage already has "How far are you willing to go for power?" as one of its core themes, that shouldn't be repeated in this splat. This splat should have the theme originally proposed, that of balancing divinity with humanity lest you be consumed by one or the other.

A fitting theme for a game about pseudo-demigods.

>>53924777
But isn't the notion of balancing humanity vs. 'the other' essentially the same theme as Vampire, just replacing monstrosity for divinity?

>>53924770
Pretty sure the Ventrue isn't a kiddy fiddler, considering her childe is a hipster dude embraced at 30 that she is obsessed with and wants him to be her lover. The hipster thinks her stank old ass (embraced at 40) is gross and wants her to die, so she drinks from sleeping kids to experience their youth vicariously through their dreams. Didn't people actually read the fucking thing?

>>53924806
Vampire is about trying to cling to your humanity while having the beast gnawing at the back of your mind to turn you into something inhuman.
This sounds more like "How much of yourself are you willing to give up?"

>>53924806
To a degree, but this concept differs from Vampire more then yours differs from Mage.

I mean, what interesting interactions are going to come from your theme? You've made personality dissolved part of the character progression track, either the PCs are going to choose Legends very similar to their characters so they barely change at all, or they're going to get mad when you try and dictate that they act more like their Legend whenever they spend XP. Even if everything goes as planned, its the same thing every time. The entire party will gradually lose their sense of self, at the same rate, in the same way.

Its far more interesting seeing the arrogant and lofty embracing their divinity and tossing away half their personality to be the reincarnation of an ancient demigod, while the rest try and hold onto as much of themselves as they can as they evolve in power.

The idea you're talking about is basically just Nobilis in the WoD, with a lower power level.

>>53924826
Which goes back to the whole Mage similarity which was complained about before.

Don't get me wrong, I like the core concept and some of what has been discussed, but I feel the core themes should be unique rather than just a rehash of a pre-existing splat.

Fuck, maybe we're coming at this from the wrong angle? Maybe rather than being mortals trying to attain godhood, it should be gods trying to attain mortality?

>>53924846
Eh see but then its just Changling the Dreaming with a higher power level, and we'll people fighting therapists over how they are totally Jehovah they swear.

Really the whole concept sounds alot like TES Mantling.

Walk like them until they walk like you.

>>53924833
>I mean, what interesting interactions are going to come from your theme?

Well my aim would be to not have the game end at Ascension - that's just the next phase as full gods.

The theme I was aiming for was carving out your own legend - not adhering to someone elses. My idea wasn't that you draw on some other power, but carve out your own - so as you lose your ability to act in a different fashion to your character, you're becoming more of what you are. Becoming a legend would mean becoming more of what you are.

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>>53924932

Thats a lightly modded scion fameroni. Tbqh there are several games that achieve what you aim for better and it really unnecesarily cluters the already overfilled background.

>>53924966
Looking at it from a mechanical standpoint, how well does Scion mesh with the rest of the WoD games?

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Last thread we had a discussion about vampiric Asia without the Kuei Jin.

I would like to discuss this scenario further.

My ideas:

>Hunters in Asia are more successfull. The Chinese government due to its authoritarian and secretive nature has a branch of the secret agency that somewhat has it shit together. They don't even come close to the big picture about vampire abilities and vampiric influence world wide but they had some remarkable succes in destroying neonate and ancillae (the corruption purges in china).

>Also there are some successfull traditional hunter societies (think secret buddhist monks etc.)

>The big players in Asia are mostly very territorial Gangrel Metusaleh. They were the first to travel too Asia and they are opposed to the sects and a high vampire population density. They often hunt elders trying to build big power networks.

>Gangrel are the biggest clan in Asia.

>Coastal cities (ex colonial hubs) are heavily guarded fortresses of the european sects. Attempts to broaden the sects power further onto the mainland failed due to horrible terrors stalking the nights and very organized hunters.

>>53921978
>Gnosis 10 Master in, lets say Death/Matter so its all encompasing, wants to Unmake a Vampire.
>We're gonna say that since 10 dice

A Gnosis 10 Master will START with a dice pool of 15 (Gnosis 10 + Arcana 5), not 10.

The chances of an exceptional success increase dramatically with those extra five dice.

>>53925276
It's also worth noting a Gnosis 10 Mage is one of the rarest beings in the setting.

They have before them probably the easiest path to Ascension, creating the 4th (though really in 2e it should be 6th) Attainment of their Legacy.

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>>53925276
>>53925331

>tfw when magefag

>every thread at some point mentions imperial mysteries and archmage dickwaving

>haha how would a mage fare against plat x

>and my personal favorite : how to work ebin marvel stuff into my game

>>53921520
Sounds like Amber

>>53925506
>and my personal favorite : how to work ebin marvel stuff into my game

Holy shit I'm responsible for this and I'm not even a magefag :'(

>>53925571
Well it revealed a lot about the average magefag.

Most of them genuinenly don't understand the nature of the splat. DnD-esque powerwanking and a focus on ebin umbra Adventures or becoming an archmage instead of really using the vast playground of philosophy.

>>53925626
Well mostly my nature as powergamer and someone who needs to stat everything. I read mage mosly for the fluff(Awakening one). Things like exarchs, old gods banished to earth, abyss and such

>>53925689
But isn't that exactly the problem?

I have vastly more knowledge about oWoD mage but there are some genuinenly interesting things to discuss about CofD mage.

>A few threads ago there was the idea of an abyssal invader thats basically a set of mathematical equations that changes the laws of nature when solved.

He do you fight something like that? Sure you could have an Adventure where you have to do a Ritual to face the avatar of this invader and then blast it to space.

Or you do something interesting where your crew has to gather the best mathematicians before they are infected so that they can disprove this "new math". They are running out of time because more and more academic See Working towards the spread of the formulas.

>>53925795
Yeah this is great stuff. Prince of 100 000 leaves is also fun being sentient retcon. Seers book also has some interesting stuff

Anyway engagning in powerwank disscussion is in human nature I guess.

>>53925795
>How do you fight something like that?

Questions like that are examples of why mages are not "overpowered."

Their antagonists are not street-level and similar threats, and require the full panoply of mages' supernatural abilities and resources to counter and combat.

>>53926383
But judging by this threads all mages do is bully other splats

>>53925795
I'm pretty sure that's straight out of 1e's Abyssal Invaders. That book is great. Also includes tainted devices that are basically SCP material.

Anyone have character art of male office workers?

>>53926402
>But judging by this threads all mages do is bully other splats

When not fighting fallen gods and anti-reality horrors, mages have to unwind.

For example, after a hard day of saving the universe, it sure is relaxing to engage in fun and productive activities like incinerating vampire vermin. It keeps mages' skills sharp, its fun for mages of all ages, and destroying the undead is a public service.

>Or, for those among the Seers of the Throne, snorting magic cocaine off the ass of a vampire stripper is always an option.

>>53926506
This is some shit right here

>>53926506
>>53926532

I understand and appreciate why mages might want to eliminate CofD's horrible vampire infestation or destroy true monsters like beasts, but picking on poor woofs and changelings, no less the minor templates and sleepers, just seems a little harsh and unnecessary.

>>53926730
>horrible vampire infestation

Single mage can fuck up more people then whole domain of vampires. Not to mention that mages are responsible for fucked up state of the world. And what is so morally repugnant about vampires to mages if many mages do not even consider sleepers people?

>>53926797

What purpose do vampires serve? What good do they bring to anyone?

Vampires are misery incarnate; they prey on the living and are a mockery of humanity.

If vampires had a conscience they would happily greet the sun. Until then, mages and are nobles being should eradicate them at every opportunity.

>>53926797
>many mages do not even consider sleepers people
Well they aren't

>>53926843
>Wasting the chance to interact with a fellow mystical entity and learn arcane secrets just because a few dozen normies get eaten by it.
Get a load of this Free Councilor.jpg

>>53926843
What purpose do Seers serve? Scelesti? Mad? Tremere? Or are you admitting orders are too weak to do anything about those?

>>53926881
>Wasting the chance to interact with a fellow mystical entity

No one is suggesting that mages shouldn't "interact" with vampires. Quite the contrary.

There's no need to quickly kill all vampires. Feel free to engage in some research too. There's nothing like a good, slow and methodical "testing" or vivisection of a vampire to learn mystical insights before destroying the abomination.

>>53925965
>engagning in powerwank disscussion is in /tg/'s nature, look at the 3.PF threads
This is why I have come to hate these threads; most of them are literally no better than D&D threads, with people focusing more on HURR UNLIMITED POWAHH and bullshit theorycraft that will never actually happen in a game than the game itself, or ways to be a better ST, or personal stories of things players have experienced.

>inherently prevent Sleepers from Awakening by spreading their curse
>actively involved in Sleeper politics
>actively involved in their own parallel society
>literally guaranteed to go mad at some point in their unlife
>nothing but a danger to themselves or others

Remind me why Vampires still exist in a world with Mages? There is no logical justification for it, unless it's part of some grand plan to prevent certain Sleepers from Awakening.

>>53926888
>What purpose do Seers serve? Scelesti? Mad? Tremere?

The Awakened are one nation. While Seers, Scelesti, reapers and other Awakened criminals deserve to be punished or even executed, they are at least people and deserving of some rights.

Moreover, while mages collectively should strive to eliminate these Awakened threats, they are far more dangerous than your average vampire cockroach, and therefore must be dealt with in a far more cautious manner.

>>53926872
>many mages do not even consider sleepers people
>Well they aren't

Sleepers are like moneys and baboons, animals to be generally treated without needless cruelty. However, just like humans treat lesser beasts concerning areas like medical experimentation, the scientific and supernatural needs of the Awakened always come before the sleeper masses.

>>53926881
Free Council wouldn't be able to find its way out of Consilia even if all members had mind and space mastery. Silver Ladder supremacy

>>53927041
>Remind me why Vampires still exist in a world with Mages?

If mages killed all vampires, who's asses would Seers snort magic cocaine off of?

>>53927028
>people focusing more on HURR UNLIMITED POWAHH

That's quite literally one of the primary themes and risks in Awakening.

It's a game about how humans with cosmic power become monsters.

>>53927041
>Remind me why Vampires still exist in a world with Mages?
Because vampires, with their mortal and sleeper allies, could wipe out mages, who are among the smallest in number of all splats in a battle of attrition.

>>53927041
Because there's very few Mages and 90% of them are busy with more important things like the Seers trying to purge them or the Abyss wanting to eat the universe.
And if some random fuccboi apprentice goes around fireballing vamps he's going to draw Sleeper attention, which means more Seer and Abyss problems.

>>53927118
>Because vampires, with their mortal and sleeper allies, could wipe out mages

You're funny Anon, now pull the other one.

>>53927112
No, the primary theme is the allure of power and how it fucks you over, not how you GET unlimited power.
The guy above who decided to mathhammer an archmage is completely missing the point and engaging in banal dick stroking because muh power :^), or people like >>53927129 who postulate that mages are invincible because reasons.

>>53927124
>Hierarchs cell phone rings
>"MASTER! VAMPIRES AND WOOFS AND PROMETHEANS AND EVERYONE WANTS TO MURDER ME WHAT DO?"
>Hierarch disconnects the call then looks at the horde of Gulmoth swarming around him and his cabal
>"sigh"

>>53927028
>bullshit theorycraft that will never actually happen in a game
Agree thou judgeing by That guy threads people are engaging in some truly ridiculous shit

>>53927153
>mages are invincible

Mages are hardly invincible, but vampires and their toadies and thugs do not even present a minor nuisance to the Awakened Nation.

Vampires (and Sleepers) should consider themselves lucky that mages are out there saving reality while lesser beings engage in their petty, mundane and entirely insignificant pursuits.

>>53927090
>Silver Ladder supremacy

L O L . The SL are navel-gazing, sleeper-loving bureaucrats.

The mages with real insight, knowledge and power are in the Mysterium!

>>53927271
Only insight Mysterium gains is by sticking their heads up each others asses. Ohoho I dissect sleepers look at me.

>>53927242
>that mages are out there saving reality

Pff Seers of the Throne are the only ones protecting mankind and fallen world. You Diamond fuckups are lucky we can snort only so much coke.

Is there any homebrew out there somewhere for playing as Heroes?

They're much cooler than Beasts in just about every way, plus they've got potential for interesting conflicts (even if they're just a subsplat for Hunter or something)

>>53927041

Because Mages are Magic Academia and can never actually get together and agree on a major program to do anything. The Diamond and the Throne are the best you get and even they're a house of angry cats.

>>53927422
Ech I might be wrong but are they not just sociopathic hunters with hateboner for Beasts?

>>53927448
Sorta. They hunt other stuff too, but the important part is the absolute disregard for collateral damage. That, and the beast powers that they get a bit of

>>53927422

Just play Hunter the Reckoning. Heroes are just weaker Waywards with a more specific target.

>>53927448

Pretty much, they're only interesting because the supposed protagonist splat is so much worse, which could be good if Beast had any idea of what it wants to be.

>>53927314
>Ohoho I dissect sleepers look at me.

That's offensive. The luminaries of the Mysterium dissect more than just sleeper insects, and the knowledge gained is far more important to the Wise than the Silver Ladder's ridiculous infatuation with Sleepers and politics.

>hears unnatural screams and moans echoing from the Mystagogue's laboratory

>>53927441
>can never actually get together and agree on a major program to do anything

Don't you mean they can never agree on a major *pogrom* to do anything about the "vampire problem."

>>53927422
>playing as Heroes

That's crazy talk.

MattMc has decreed that Heroes should never be pc's.

>>53927041
Vampires confirmed as Exarch redundancy for the Lie

Expectations for V5?

Mine are:

>neonates even weaker than they are now
>combat completely unplayable now
>fun disciplines like chimerstry and vicissitude made as boring as protean
>quarter of every session now has to be wasted on feeding scenes
>players has to suck up to big dick NPCs even more

>>53928663
>For each game, you will need to pay for an official GM to fly to your home, who will ensure that you are not having badwrongfun during the session and playing the way they have decided in the OP offices is correct.

>>53928663
Hunters Hunted III, this time it's even more personal, starring Leopold XII von Murnau as the Inquisitor General.

>>53928663

Were Chimestry and Viscissitude in VtM 1e? If not, they're probably not showing up at all, let alone reworked into something less powerful. Remember, if you want to make a good guess at what 5e will be like, read 1e.

>>53928698
>OP offices
What?

>>53928924
The basement they keep their freelancers in.

>>53928924
Onyx Path offices, you flapjaw.

>>53928987
What does Onyx Path has to do with V5?

>>53928663
I'm thinking they'll eventually decide there are too many clans and get rid of a couple.

Speaking of V5, though, does anyone know if the fact that there were only three dots of disciplines is only a pre-alpha thing or if it's a change they made?

>>53928794
So, you can now turn into human again?

>>53924348
What gets me is they just write the entire board (and by extension, anyone who doesn't agree with their hysterics) off as a white supremacist. I'm much closer to them than to /pol/ politically, but this joyless puritanism, this insistence that anyone who doesn't recoil in horror at the word faggot must be a vile racist mutant traitor makes them totally impossible to side or even sympathize with.


t. actual faggot


Also, why do these cringelords always have to call themselves occultists and pagans and wizards and shit?

>>53928663
More expectations:

>randomly rolled clan
>original clans only
>Tremere still as OP as ever
>Malkavians still presented as fishmalks

>>53924821
>Rape metaphor feeding on kids.
Sure sounds like a kiddy fiddler to me.

>>53929295
Eh I half expect them to axe Tremere because vampire-wizard living is his sire basement doesn't fit "edgy" vison they have for the game

What about a Vampire using Dominate 5 to take over the consciousness and body of a Mage?

This vampire would've studied the magic arts without being able to apply them for centuries, making him particularly dangerous.

Also before saying something like "you cannot do that" it doesn't overwrite the soul and the avatar of the target, so yes, you can do that.

>>53929381
Maybe they replace them with clan Lasombra.

Lasobra are edgy and do vaguely magic like stuff with shadows.

>>53927422
You don't need homebrew, they presented rules for making them in Tooth and Nail, the hunter supplement for Beast.

>>53929384
Why would the Avatar, something dominate 5 can't even target or interact with, cooperate with you in anyway to let you cast spells when you don't even fit the paradigm of the Mage in question?

>>53929110

I wouldn't be surprised if that was in there, to be honest.

>>53929593
Can’t wait for the delicious butthurt when that happens.

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>>53929625
They'll all run off to play VTR instead for 'proper' suffering.

>>53929772

>>53929591
>assuming that you wouldn't fit the paradigm
nice assumption you got there
Also, it would be fun if an ancient Tremere would try to take over the body of a Hermetic Mage and share obscure magic secrets with the avatar.
>Yes, you are a more worthy companion than this puny mage.

>>53929295
>>53928663
>>53928698
You are worse than an Elder in fear of Gehenna.

have some hope for fuck sake

>>53929844
>Hope is punished by being sent to the next tumblr-con, gagged and stashed at the bottom of the ballpit.

>>53928663

>whiny modern bullshit
>oh ze humanity forced down your throat
>camarillia 1% assholes who constantly fuck up and yet have the power
>anarchs as righteous "occupy wallstreet" fellows (cmon you don't think they really have a grip on modern events) forced to use violence
>second inquisition as a tool for the st to fuck over the players once the build up a herd or a powerbase because that would undermine the topic of the game
>either humanity or feeding rules are going to be broken


>how 5th should be

>Sabbath becomes an IS like terror organization
>they have some territories they hold but the real threat is traveling packs and fanatical priests/infiltrators radicalizing anarchs
>Camarillia actually still is stable and capabable but has a hard time countering the new flexible sabbath approach
>Anarchs are torn due to their internal conflicts and easy recruiting grounds for both sects
>fewer clans and bloodlines (c'mon who needs the ravnos as a bloodline)

>>53929908
You forgot: MORE AUTHOR INSERTS.

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>>53929908
>*who needs ravnos as a clan

>>53929932
Oh yeah. And ofc some SJW political bullshit injected.

>>53921995
Except you need potency 13 if his stamina is 12..

>>53922518
You are not the majority either.

http://theonyxpath.com/now-available-thousand-years-of-night/

>>53930690
Are the Elder Disciplines any good?

>>53926797
>if many mages do not even consider sleepers people?

Thats just Mystagogues and Seers (and maybe Guardians). The Free Council and the Silver Ladder love Sleepers, although for different reasons.

>>53923104
To be more correct, Spheres have more versatility, but Vampire powers are vast and have multitude of effects that can even match the one of the spheres (I'm waiting for the usual fags coming up with Arch Spheres)
There are so many Thaumaturgy and Rites of different nature that can simulate all the Spheres, the problem is that realistically speaking, no Vampire can learn ALL the paths and rites, a Mage just have to focus in 1-2 spheres instead to achieve the same results, so he has a way easier life on that regard.

>>53930713
Don't know, I don't have the money. I'm hoping someone else will spoil it and the extinct Clans.

>>53929304
Maybe we should talk about the edginess of the story of Little Red Riding Hood, as well. Who would dare eat children without touching their private parts at the same time? Subtext, you know.

>>53929384
>>53929591
>Avatar
>cooperate
How can people be this misguided?

The Avatar serves you, not the other way around. That's like saying Link can't do shit without Navi.

>>53932245
Cooperating doesn't mean serving anon.
Cooperation means being on equal footing.

But, if you say so, then you would be able to use magick effortlessly.

>>53932304
Avatar is the guiding force that drives you toward enlightenment. Arete is the mage's actual power. With Manifest Avatar/Avatar Companion, your Avatar might be your sworn nemesis. You would still be able to cast magick fine.

>>53932451
But would someone else using your body? Because you didn't actually address anything said.