Modern elves have NOTHING to do with the elves of Tolkien. Humans

File: Gender - Elf.gif (913KB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

913KB, 400x300px

>>53898166
Because it doesn't matter? Because there's no objectively right answer or objectively right way to run a game? Because if I wanted to run a game with Tolkien Elves, I'd run one, and if I wanted to run one with Keebler Elves I'd run that too, and there's not a goddamn thing any of you could do to stop me doing it and having fun?

/thread

>>53898166
>Sucking Tolkien's dick
He was a hack, for Christ's sake
have a (you)

File: 008 .jpg (50KB, 400x700px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 400x700px

Sometimes, the knockoff fits better than the original. Tolkien's elves served his narrative, but works poorly for RPG settings. In Tolkien, elves were the dying symbols of a better time now passed. My campaigns do not tell that kind of story, and so insane fey-inspired freaks make a better fit.

>>53898166
Because every single facet of my D&D 5e campaign is designed to be BadWrongFun. Go ahead, ask me anything about the setting. It's guaranteed to send you into conniptions.

>>53898166
D&D's elves come from Three Hearts and Three Lions.

Tolkien was an autistic hack.

>>53898166
tolkien's elves were gay as shit and they didn't even like to fuck

>>53898260
Alright, I'll bite.
What's your setting like then?

>>53898237
(you)

>>53898200
>/thread-ing your own post

It's summer in here already, huh?

>>53898307
Forgotten Realms, but I've been using the same Forgotten Realms for years, and thus have plenty of former PCs who've basically saved the world every time and are still present in the setting. Plus I've changed around the lore at specific points. Also Drizzt is the new Lolth.

File: 1494774229634.jpg (538KB, 1064x496px) Image search: [Google]

538KB, 1064x496px

>>53898354
Bet you a dollar I've been here longer than you. But yeah. Not sure what else there is to say about this bait.

File: worldbuilding.png (128KB, 1401x557px) Image search: [Google]

128KB, 1401x557px

>>53898379
>>53898260

That's IT?

Amateur.

Tolkien is not the be-all end-all of fantasy. There's plenty of stuff outside his works, and you would do well to recognize that fantasy has no specific rules on what it can and can't be. It is what you make it.

>>53898166
But, Tolkien's elves are knock-offs. Really boring ones too.

>>53898166
>being this angry about elves

>>53898307
Don't reply to that guy.

>>53898756

I gave up a year ago. Is it really updating again?

>>53898166
Because I unironically enjoy using Faerun as my campaign setting.

>>53898728
Right, it only encourages him.

>>53898166
i remember hearing that Tolkien conceived of the elves as what humans would have been without original sin.

>>53899875
Unlikely, since the Elves get TWO falls, and can and do act like colossal dicks.

>>53899898
true but it isn't that adam and eve didn't do evil things. it was that they were oblivious to it.

>>53898166
Because Tolkien's elves aren't balanced with the other races for gaming purposes.

>>53898166
My elves are superior because how I play them makes them superior. Except when it's a matter of life and death, in which case Kritz McGutsword has all the loaded dice.

>>53898260
>>53898379
You don't even have an m-preg race? That's not even close to badwrongfun.

>>53898166
Because Tolkiens elves aren't very relatable and they're overpowered.

Tolkiens humans are also overpowered, but I prefer humans closer to our power level, so the elves get brought down as well

>>53899875

they read more like the humans you might read about in a mythology

they're supposedly flesh and blood but seem to live bizarrely long lives and have magical powers at dramatic moments and can fight immortal, divine beings evenly. they can even die of being too sad. they're larger than life, really.

File: 1492305329714.jpg (41KB, 324x394px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 324x394px

>>53898166
>when a fucking retard thinks Tolkien was any good
Read Warhammer, forest elves, high elves, and teen elves are best elves.

>>53898166
Tolkien elves are great for NPCs but shit for PCs as they should be of a greater level of inherent power than humans, hobbits and even dwarfs.

>>53898166
Because being bound to fate with no say in it is balls. If your fate is to go berserk and murder people over rocks then you don't get a say in it.

>>53898237
>he was a hack

Stop making actual words into buzzwords you dick.

>>53900658
>teen elves

now hold the fuck up

File: 1493873316912.jpg (165KB, 1200x900px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 1200x900px

>>53898166
elfs are good for breeding, they are attractive and powerful magic users, mix that with the inner blood thirst of humans and you have something really interesting.

>>53898354
Who would have thought, in the middle of summer

>>53900658
Are you that guy who was posting those shitty plane pictures about Tolkien? Anyways you're wrong, again, and you're, again, going to bail out as soon as you're proven wrong.

>>53901577
>with no say in it
It really wasn't like that though.

>>53902306
I don't waste hard drive space on Tolkien trash

>>53900613
>they're overpowered.
After the War of Wrath elves aren't really that special (and even during the later days of Beleriand Túrin was more powerful than any elf) Sauron would have gobbled them up easily without Numénor.

>>53902348
The world of Warhammer is extremely shallow and cookie cutter because there's no effort put into it. This is because the world is not in any way essential for warhammer, because it is for a wargame. It isn't as good as you think.

Tell me, Anon. Why do you think he is bad?

File: drow rogue.jpg (40KB, 736x556px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 736x556px

>>53898166
Because black skin, white hair, and red eyes is a cooler visual aesthetic.

File: 1430586787467.jpg (308KB, 1068x748px) Image search: [Google]

308KB, 1068x748px

>>53898241
>Work poorly for RPG settings

This.

Tolkien's great, but the Noldor would make a bad fit in most games. If they were included at all, they would really have to be strictly NPCs.

Because I like my goofy hackneyed plot where High Elves, Wood Elves, and Drow are playing the role of Whites, Blacks, and Rednecks in a fantasy version of the Jim Crow South.

>>53902382
You didn't really go in detail, so all I can tell you is that you are wrong.
>why
Its shallow trash, very generic

>>53902684
How is it shallow? How is it generic? Please explain with examples.
>that you are wrong.
But I'm not. Warhammer is cool, but not very innovative or deep. Most nations and peoples in Warhammer are just not!x and the literature is far less about the world and far more about single characters doing things. It serves it's purpose for an interesting backdrop for a game, but isn't very refined because it isn't important for the game on it's own (like for example forgotten realms is for dnd))

>>53902478
You'd have to make sure the whole party was sufficiently larger than life. It'd be doable, but rpg culture really isn't geared towards the larger than life, mythological heroes.

Something like the Quest for the Simarils could make a good campaign if your players were sufficiently invested in it.

>>53900658
>read warhammer
I love Warhammer elves, but you're retarded if you believe they take nothing from Tolkien. High elves are basically just Feanor.

File: 3b509f04c2f0ac2ef1e5512141e53c9c.jpg (148KB, 567x1598px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 567x1598px

>>53898166
Post elegant elves.

Slutty elves need not apply.

>>53903213
>High elves are basically just Feanor.
k

>>53903251
>self-absorbed warriors of great power with a streak of cruelty
>not Feanor

File: 1472754419385.jpg (254KB, 1500x766px) Image search: [Google]

254KB, 1500x766px

>>53903234

>>53899240
Incase started making it a sexadventure again a couple months ago after losing a bunch of patrons and irregular uploads turned too many people off of it.

File: th-6.jpg (15KB, 212x300px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 212x300px

I quite like the idea of Kirkbride's Altmer in TES. Basically magical Gnostic elves with elitism that comes from their age/experience and their worldview.

Beyond that, I've yet to see a race built around western monasticism. That'd be fun for elves, I'd imagine.

>>53903151
>rpg culture really isn't geared towards the larger than life, mythological heroes.
D&D isn't geared to handle to it. There are other systems that are.

>>53898263
his legacy lives on while you have got nothing to show for though

If you want to stay true to Tolkien the elves should be superior in pretty much all respects to all the other races. Which is pretty silly when talking about RPG's PC, not to mention butthurt inducing. So having them be "-STR +DEX" makes more sense in this situation.
Now in terms off narratives I myself prefer demigod elves over tribal treehuggers as well.

>>53904430
>demigod elves
That is itself a misunderstanding of Tolkien's Elves. They were not superior to humans, even though they often mistakenly believed themselves to be. It's made very clear that Elves were equal to Men in Iluvatar's creation as the Children of Eru and that, if anything, Men were slightly favored bu him (even if the Ainur seem to have preferred the Elves).

>>53904481
The favor shown to men was expressed through the gift of their death and the mysteries beyond, not through any sort of physical superiority.

Tolkien explicitly states that Noldor are physically superior. The elf-friends are a bit of an exception because they learned much in the way of wisdom and strength from the princely Noldo. It was their presence that set them apart.

Of course, talking about physical stats is pretty much meaningless in Tolkien anyway. Destiny and fate are what grant true power in the setting.

>>53898166
rivendell elves

rivendelves

>>53898287
>they didn't even like to fuck
Sause?

Because all we know is that they didn't have many children. That is not the same thing.

>>53904771
He's wrong, they liked it a lot

>>53903151
exalted
well it's not really geared to be actually played but still

>>53898166
I blame the Japanese and their rape culture for the busty donkey eared elf meme.

File: goku_and_vegeta_super_saiyan_god_super_saiyan_wallpaper.jpg (136KB, 512x640px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 512x640px

I'm using sort-of Tolkien elves.

The main problem is that players want to be elfs right, but you cannot have players play a goddamn superhuman entity that's not only super strong, super fast and also supersmart. But if your elfs aren't superhuman... they're not elfs anymore. They're just humans with pointy ears.

So I solved it by allowing both to take place simultaneously.

If a wizard amasses enough magical or spiritual knowledge, they will slowly transform in an elf (typically this happens to the best in the field, and when they're very old - but some lucky wizards or very adventurous ones might just witness or be part of a rare magical event of extreme power).
They will become young and strong again, and their ears will grow pointy.

Any offspring they get after becoming an elf will for all intents and purposes be human, but still have long ears. They have an easier time becoming a true elf themselves, but that's all.

I just think pointed eared humans are boring. Those ears have to be a mile long or something or they just look like slightly different humans and there's no point in including them when some magically enhanced humans could work just as well.

>>53904924
>But if your elfs aren't superhuman... they're not elfs anymore
This is ridiculous. Hate all the non-Tolkien elves how much you want, but elves have established themselves playable races for long enough and they work. The inspiration for elves can be very varied and don't need to be superhuman at all. The "elves are the best at everything"-meme needs to die, it's even doubtful in Tolkiens works, where Beren can beat up three sons of the Noldor on a horse, and rarely found anywhere else.

>>53901602
le edgey 13yo cringe may may
another reason to ignore this /lit/roll

>>53904988
>i don't read tolkien
>i don't read scandi mythology

Dude what.

>>53905045
>>i don't read tolkien
>where Beren can beat up three sons of the Noldor on a horse

>>i don't read scandi mythology
>implying Scandinavian mythology is the only one with elves
>implying it's the only inspiration for elves
>implying it wasn't the Tuatha de Danaan for Tolkien, mostly
Scandinavian elves are also dwarves. And where does it say in Scandinavian mythology that they are better at everything compared to humans? What's the Scandinavian equivalent of the Noldor?

>>53898166
Tolkien elves were very human though. they were like humans+; they had all the virtues and flaws of us dailed up to 11

>>53905122
>one guy in the whole of the simarillion that can beat up elves
>JUST ONE GUY
>IN THE ENTIRE SIMARILLION

If anything that's a good fucking indication just how fucking badass elves are in Tolkien's work.

>>53904771
>Because all we know is that they didn't have many children
Feanor had seven kids tho

>>53904224
I like it better when there's character development. I don't even fap to it anymore, I just wanna see where the plot goes

>>53904335
4e is, it's built into the leveling tiers

>>53905151
This is why I said "doubtful", in the Silmarillion you had also humans doing badass shit. Some time ago I had a heated argument actually defending the power of the Noldor against someone who insisted that humans are actually stronger. At the end I realized that we mostly hear about some specific Noldor and all the cool hero guys of the humans were all related as well. Which makes it somewhat difficult to compare these two races with eachother, we mostly hear about specific elves and humans.

You didn't answer to all my other ebin meme-text arrows.

>>53905204
I dunno man, I am not the guy you're arguing with.

File: 1475888764097.jpg (20KB, 385x277px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 385x277px

>>53905226
Of course you are not.

>>53905204
The elf-friends are kind of the exception to the rule as well, though. It is said that having learned the wisdom of the Noldor and being raised in their presence has enhanced their strength considerably. You get Hurin, Turin, and Beren through this sort of tutelage. The strength of the great elf-lords seems mostly inborn, though. Maybe they lack the potential for growth of their human counterparts. Who knows.

It's really pointless to discuss the power creep of Tolkien's works regardless, where magic is nebulously described at best and most great deeds are accomplished more through fate than prowess.

>>53898166

Tolkein elves are more like aasimar in D&D terms.

>>53904924

I had a similar idea once, only instead of it being an individual thing, elves were a race of humans who had magically modified their bloodline to produce beings superior at magic.

I've made a bunch of weird settings, though. In another one, halflings and dwarves were actually the "intended" inhabitants of the world, and the ancestors of humans were gods who had been kicked out of the heavens in a divine civil war, leaving "giant" demigods who lost their powers over generations to become humans, with some bloodlines (who became kings, nobles, etc.) retaining a few powers. Elves were made from humans who were captured and experimented on by fae to produce superior slaves who eventually managed to overthrow their masters. They were sorted into four different sub-races of elves based on the four seasons, to match the fairy courts who created them.

>>53905317
>>53905204

Well, if I remember right, doesn't "beholding the light of the twin trees" make you stronger? Like it literally magnifies your soul or some shit. Even owning/looking upon a silmaril for a long enough while does it to you. Like, if a silmaril was in D&D it would just drip feed XP right into you.

>>53903234
Elves may dress elegant but underneath they are all sluts.

>>53905317
>It's really pointless to discuss the power creep of Tolkien's works regardless
This wouldn't be my /tg/ if I can't waste my time arguing about power-levelvs. Though your explanation makes a lot of sense, didn't consider this.

>>53905351
Fantastic meme, especially when discussing Tolkien elves. Upvoted.

File: laughing elves.gif (875KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

875KB, 500x281px

>graceful perfection of Tolkien's elves
>murdering each other and wrecking an entire continent
>perfect

>>53898200

woooooah i bet ur the real socrates of our time aren't you .......

really makes u think ...... damn bro centrists rock there is no right and wrong in our nihilist world ... damn ......

>>53905378
It's almost like Tolkien elves were never intended to be perfect Mary Sues.

>>53905317
All the elf lords went to valenor and got juiced up though

>>53898756
Incase has such a bad case of sameface

File: qSKSeu0[1].png (906KB, 1600x848px) Image search: [Google]

906KB, 1600x848px

>>53898166
>Modern elves have NOTHING to do with the elves of Tolkien
Yes... and?

>>53898263
>Three Hearts and Three Lions
Wouldn't surprise me, considering it also influenced D&D's alignment system and the way it depicts paladin.

File: feanor7.jpg (24KB, 293x292px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 293x292px

>>53905378

To be fair, that was mostly Feanor.

File: Lefiya41.jpg (25KB, 326x464px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 326x464px

>>53906333
>kissanime

>>53902478
Why do they all have glam-rocker hair?

>>53898166
In DnD Tolkien Elves would be more fit as Outsider (Native) and not good for Playing Characters.
Since your players (at leat mine, they are very traditional) want to play Elves, Dwarves and Humans mostly, you have to "humanize" the elves. More balanced mechanically, asier to RP and the like.

>>53906382
>Thingol's such a prick he sends Beren on a suicide mission just so he can't fuck his daughter
>When Beren actually succeeds Thingol gets himself murdered because he won't pay some fucking Dwarves
>Eol kidnaps his wife and when she runs away with their son back to her own family, he follows them and tries to murder them when they won't come back
>Eol's son Maeglin betrays his mother's family to the fucking lord of evil because Morgoth promised he'd give Maeglin a chance to fuck his cousin, who cucked him with a human
And of course there's all seven sons of Feanor
Dem elves is crazy son

Tolkien elves would break games because they're literally better than everyone else at everything.

>>53905151

Elves got their asses kicked by everyone in the Silmarillion. Coincidentally, they also kicked a lot of ass.

>>53906569
>Thingol gets himself murdered because he won't pay some fucking Dwarves
You make it sound so simple, but the dwarves were prime assholes in this situation.

>>53906842

I think there was something about elves being stuck in their ways a bit? Like, they have trouble adapting quickly or changing technology or embracing new social orders, because they're like, bound to the world or something like that. Right?

>>53906948
Well a silmaril was involved. Everyone becomes an asshole when a Silmaril is involved. But Thingol had a history of douchiness.

>>53906974
>they have trouble adapting quickly or changing technology or embracing new social orders
None of those things ever really happened, and when they did they were bad things, like the orcs tearing down forests to make firepits and war engines and shit.
Elves just made a big dumb oath cause of Feanor, and everyone is tied to their oaths, so elves end up doing stupid shit for thousands of years because one asshole got really angry one day.

>>53907011
His motives concerning marrying his daughter to a human was understandable, though. It almost did end in tragedy.

>>53907104
>"Hey Beren, sorry but no, I don't want my daughter crying over you when you die"
>"Hey Beren, I'll totally let you bang my daughter if you can get me this thing you'll most certainly die trying to retrieve"
There was a right and a wrong way to go about things. Thingol chose the wrong way.

>>53907152
He didn't really like humans for reasons, which changed after this affair. Doing badass things to get some highly priced pussy is a pretty standard story, I wouldn't give away my daughter so easily as well.

>>53898166
Perfection is boring.

>>53902305
>June 20
>middle of summer

>>53898166
because I'm not an autistic fuccboi obsessing over books from 1954

>>53907152
Worked out pretty well for Beren in the end though.

Most gamers know elves better from World of Warcraft, not books.

>>53906495
Because they're Noldor?

>>53907828

brainlet

My elves have been culturally assimilated to their home nations. Other than a slightly expanded lifespan their basically humans with pointy ears minus all that 'muh elven grace muh elven purity muh elven heritage, we wuz forest hobos' mentality.

File: Aenarion.jpg (156KB, 624x876px) Image search: [Google]

156KB, 624x876px

>>53898166
I feel like people who say this get most of their knowledge on elves in modern fiction from /tg/ memes rather than D&D materials or any actual lore.

There are of course differences in the minute details that vary between settings, such as matters of the fea in Tolkien not really applying to other arenas, but generally modern elves still tread the same roads of Tolkien's elves. Some diverge further, some diverge less, but the core idea of how they look, how they act, and how they are portrayed by the narrative is all derived from Tolkien.

I'd like to see anyone argue that the Asur of WHFB are not total Noldor analogues, or the Crown Wars of FR aren't totally in line with how Tolkien presented the unfortunate history of his elves.

Here, have an image of not!Fingolfin fighting not!Morgoth (though I guess you could argue he kinda turned into Feanor later but whatever).

>>53898263
Nigga, have you read Three Hearts and Three Lions?

D&D elves don't remotely resemble its elves. What D&D does get from TH&TL, as well as from Moorcock, is the Law-Chaos axis.

>>53908415
Very interesting elves, good job at the world building department. I would gladly like to play these and get lost in all the role-playing possibilities!

File: drow19.jpg (100KB, 1028x777px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 1028x777px

>>53902424
Here, have a drow rogue for not ants.

File: malekith4.jpg (224KB, 2211x1085px) Image search: [Google]

224KB, 2211x1085px

>>53903234
The most elegant elf of all.

>>53908030
Only cause Luthien really, really wanted to bang him. He spends most of the story getting neck deep in shit then getting his ass pulled out of the fire by his friends, girlfriend or a goddamn talking dog. It's surprising how little agency he's afforded despite being the "hero" of the story.

>>53906948
The dwarves were the bad guys there. Thingol did in fact pay them, they just wanted more.

>get hired by elfking hired to make some jewellery
>"hey this is nice jewellery maybe we should keep it"
>elfking tells you he's paid you already, the jewellery is his, fuck off
>go home and tells all your friends elfking didn't pay you so they'll lead an army against him
>burn down his house and kill him in cold blood
>a little later the elves kill all your friends and wipe out your city in revenge, who die because of a lie you fed them out of greed
>dwarves proceed to whine about this as though they were victims until the end of time

Never trust dwarves.

>>53909458
Not him, but you should check out the Beren and Luthien book that came out recently; when you get the fuller verse tellings of the story, Beren tends to do a lot more. Hell, in one version, he even beats up Sauron before meeting Luthien in the first place.

File: luthien tinuviel.png (1MB, 900x1095px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 900x1095px

>>53909458
>>53908030
>>53907152
Beren did pretty well out of it.

Is there anywhere specifically in Tolkien or mythology that said "elves have pointed ears"? It's been ages since I read LotR and I've only started the Silmarillion, but I don't recall any specific descriptions of elf physiology aside from them possessing unearthly grace and beauty.

>>53909967
None, I think the whole thing started as he described hobbit ears being leaf-shaped and "elf-like". Though in his lifetime people started drawing his elves with pointy ears and he never objected.

>>53909967
No, in fact, he notes that the differences between Elves and Men are in the Fea, not the Hroa (Which is what makes the choice of Luthien possible); while you can tell the difference between the two in aspect and carriage and stuff, the corpse of a human and the corpse of an elf are supposed to look pretty similar.

>>53908467

And then there are the Feywild elves which look Tolkien-ian but act very fey like and, refer to other fey creatures by familiar titles, and like to sell greedy humans magical junk for mundane junk. Their view of humans is that the high human birth rate means that they can be played with and discarded and another human will take its place. Due to McGuffin reasons these Feywild Elves now exist on the same plane as the Material Plane Elves and although they look alike there is no kinship between the two.

>>53906948
>>53909567
Thingol was skilled enough to de-escalate the situation, but was so prideful that instead of being diplomatic just straight up insulted the dwarves.

On the elves vs men discussion: while some elves were very powerful, dueling with Melkor and what not but the power of the elves waned pretty quickly. Sauron (after the war of wrath) only ever feared the Numénorians, he saw elves as weak.

>>53911672
Because after the war of the wrath most elves had already left and those that stayed for whatever reason weren't really top tier Noldor-breed in large numbers.

>>53910876
>Feywild elves
I can never forgive 5e.

>>53912205
Eh?

>>53906569
Stop roleplaying as a nigger when you wanna give a "down to earth funny guy" impression, psy-op'd retard.

>>53911672
>Thingol was skilled enough to de-escalate the situation, but was so prideful that instead of being diplomatic just straight up insulted the dwarves.

I don't think that's ever stated anywhere.

Thingol just got mad at them for trying to steal from him, essentially, and refused to give them what they wanted.

There was probably no way of deescalating that shit as the dwarves were in the grip of Silmaril obsession. To be perfectly honest thing would have probably turned out better if Thingol had just killed them - all before trying to negotiate. Then it's less likely that some of them would have survived and gone on to lie about what had happened.